Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 47: Jessica Morey, Teaching Meditation to Teenagers

Episode Date: November 23, 2016

Jessica Morey has turned what some may see as the impossible -- teaching teenagers how to meditate -- into her life's work. Morey, who attended her first meditation retreat at age 14, is the co-founder and current executive director of Inward-Bound Mindfulness Education, or iBme. It’s a non-profit organization that takes teens to residential retreat centers and out into the woods for hiking and meditation across the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we get started with today's episode, let's talk about summer. Even in the sunshine or on vacation, many of us struggle to enjoy me time or even worse, we struggle to stay present during us time with friends and loved ones. To learn how to actually unwind this summer, check out the Relax and Restore meditation pack in the 10% happier app. Meditation can help you become more mindful and relax no matter what you're doing, whether you're chilling out on the beach, catching up on your favorite show or having a deep conversation.

Download the 10% happier app today, wherever you get your apps and get started with a free trial, now on with the show. I don't know about you, but I was completely nuts when I was a teenager. I was a terrible person. My mother likes to tell a story, but the one time when I was 16, when she looked over at me during dinner and I was smiling and she realized that it was the first time she'd seen me smile in years. So I definitely could have used some meditation, but I can't imagine that anybody would have been able to convince me to do it. However, Jess Mori,

who's my guest this week, does just that. She's the executive director of a group called Inward Bound Mindfulness Education, or IBME, and they take kids ages 14 to 19 to residential retreat centers and out into the woods for hiking and meditation. She's got a super interesting backstory as well.

And I think this is an episode that parents in particular are going to be really interested in, but even if you're not a parent, her story and what she does now is super interesting. So here we go. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. You started meditating as a teenager. How did that happen? So I was 14. I'm Dan Harris. You started meditating as a teenager.

How did that happen? So I was 14. And my mom used to go to the InSight Meditation Society. In Barry, Massachusetts. By the way, that's where I go meditate. BA, R-R-E, Massachusetts. Awesome place. If you're going to go on a retreat,

that's the place to do it. Or one of the best places to do it. I definitely agree. So my mom would go there and do 10 day retreats every year when I was younger. So this was like in the 80s. And were your dad was your dad cool with that or was it like annoying for him? My dad, my parents are divorced when I was two. Okay.

Got you. And so who stayed with you when you did it? I don't actually remember. That's a good one. You were running wild. But some of the times, I think we were. So age 14, what were you like as a 14 year old? That idea struck you as even remotely reasonable.

My parents did all sorts of things that there was no way I would have done. Yeah, I'm also, they started a team meditation retreat right around then the first one's happened. And I was interested in it, since I was really little. Actually, I begged my mom to take me with her to go meditate with her friends. And then I would sit for like two minutes,

but then read a book. So I just was kind of always interested in meditation. Really a good kid. Yeah, I was probably a good kid. I mean, of course, as a teenager, I did drugs and partied. Rebelled a little bit, right? I mean, to some degree.

But yeah, I was basically a good kid. But at the same time, she sent my brother, who was probably a knob in the good kid category. So, and so she had to really kind of encourage him strongly to go, but the atmosphere, there's just kind of atmosphere of peace. So even he, at first he, we really didn't want to be there, but he settled in and loved it.

But, I mean, yes, there was an atmosphere of peace but I mean just I'm still a teenager in many ways and when I'm there I rebel against I feel like I'm at summer camp and the counselors get to go out at night and have fribles at friendlies or whatever and I got to stay there and eat the vegetarian food and meditate and listen to darmatux and blah blah blah. You didn't have any of that? Well the thing is when you're the teen teen retreats, especially the early days, like there were no rules. So we didn't,

like it was in silent, kind of ever. I mean, we would met it when we were meditating in the hall, we basically were silent, but all the people that were running, the teen retreats didn't have kids. So they kind of had no ideas, had a, that you were supposed to make rules for teens. So we would like be,

we'd be in each other's rooms to like three in the morning and run here. Oh, so this is fun. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, I mean, I tied. This is sort of like insider information, but now it's totally different. This is not the way you run yours.

It's not the way that we run our sheets now. At some point, someone figured out that teenagers need a bedtime and the boyish and go in the girls' rooms. Oh, got a little bit more. We all kept the precepts. Like we took the five mindfulness precepts and we basically kept them.

Basically promising, you're not gonna do a variety of things. Misuse your sexuality, kill, lie, steal. Do drugs are all watching. Do drugs are all watching. No attacks can be great. And we basically kept those. I mean, I did, I think most people did.

But then we were just, we'd be like downstairs in the walking meditation hall, like at two in the morning playing, light as a feather stiff as a board. I don't even know what that is, but it sounds vaguely illicit. Like where you try to levitate people. Oh, OK. Yeah. Gotcha.

Just like running. It was awesome. Those were the good old days. And did you connect with the practice at that time, or was it all about light as a feather stiff as a board? Yeah. I think what I connected with again was the atmosphere and the kind of the connection and attention of the adults that were there was the biggest thing that I connected with.

When I was 14, 15, but then I started to get really into actually the practice. And I had experiences of just having that a mindset of peace, like a moment when you're kind of quiet calm. Yeah, so I loved it. So it's probably on a 1617 and then when I was 17 I did a 10 day retreat at IMS, an adult retreat. Wow. Wow. That's hard for adults. It was super hard. That was really hard. It was like, wait, where's the hacky sack? Yeah, but then you quadrupled down, you graduated from high school,

and you went to Burma for three months? I was in Burma for most of the year. Yeah. You lived in a monastery, right? For a big portion of it. And you've said that when you called your father to tell him you're doing this, he cried. Yeah, he did.

Actually, my mom and I got gotten a fight when I graduated, so I was living with my dad. I was like, tell them face to face. Yeah, I just said that. And it was just great because my mom couldn't tell me I couldn't go. And my dad couldn't tell me I couldn't go because he didn't really, he wasn't able to tell me

to do things. So he cried. So you did it, and you did it. And why did you want to do it and how was it? So on that teen retreat, right after I graduated from high school, I went back to the teen retreat. And I literally was like sitting in a meditation, I just got the idea in my head.

Go to Burma. I get all sorts of ideas in my head, but I don't act on them. I know, I was like, one of those really vivid, almost like a voice in my head. And plus, I was like, I had a teenage brain. So I was like, one of those really vivid, almost like a voice in my head. And plus, I was like, I had a teenage brain. So, I was like, no impulse control. Yeah, well, I mean, of course, it took less than an impulse,

but totally not looking at the risks. I just was like, sure, I'll do that. And I think a number of the staff for the team retreat had been recently, had been to Burma or were going to Burma. So I had heard them saying they were gonna do that. So I just decided that's what I wanted to do. All by yourself.

And did you make arrangements in advance to be at a monastery? Yeah, I mean, so I asked the staff who were going to Burma. Just said, where should I go? Which I think at this point is so crazy. No one was like, maybe you shouldn't do that. So where did you go? I went to Saita Upandita's monastery. Okay, so just for people who don't know.

Saita Upandita is a legendary meditation teacher known to be pretty hardcore and strict although I understand could be very nice with some people depending on What the chemistry was there, but it's a really it's a hardcore style of teaching and It's very very much in silence If I correct me where I go wrong here and it's very very much in silence if I correct me where I go wrong here. And it's about achieving what's known as stream entry, which is the the first stage of enlightenment where you have an experience of Nirvana. And he's he's like a field marshal getting getting the troops in that direction. And here you are 18 year old kid and show up there what was it like? He

recently died by the way. Yeah, yeah and well so actually the reason I went there was because he was the teacher who started teen retreats in the US. He was teaching and I am asked and he was doing a three month and he was like how come there's no young people at these retreats and so he said you guys should do teen retreats so my teachers in the show McDonald and Steve Smith said, sure, we'll try that. And so that's why I kind of, and then he came to them. So I met him a few times.

The chemistry with me was very warm. I mean, it was kind of very fatherly. All he ever asked me about was how the food was and he would tell me to brush my hair. He didn't get super granular about your actual practice? No, I didn't actually interview with him. I interviewed with another teacher. And just, sorry, I'm going to interrupt you again, just so people, the way it works on retreat is that you, there are teachers and you have, I think in a Burmese context is a daily interview. It's almost daily,

yeah. So you go and report your meditation experiences and they kind of get onto the hood with you. Yeah, I mean, so this is, I don't, my experience, and everything you're saying is totally right on. Wake up is at three in the morning, and then you had breakfast at five, lunch at 10, and then you couldn't eat anything until the next day. You're supposed to only sleep four hours a night, and then all you're doing is meditating. Totally silent. Sit, walk, just meditate. It was really tough. Also, like, you know, sit, walk, just meditate. It was really tough.

Also, at first in the monastery, you go to the bathroom and it's like a hole in a bucket of water, and I remember being like, I have no idea what to do with this. So just culturally it was really. And I got sticky rash, like heat rash, and they're biting ants, and just physically I got food poisoning a few times. So it was really intense and I would go into the minute and then but actually the thing is that my mind was more intense than all that. Like the physical pain was in some ways a relief because my mind was so in so much pain. Really? About what? Or was it was it content or just the fact that your mind was

seeing the rapidity of what I realized and so that's where I had like my bit of an initial really big insight what was happening was that I was beating it was beating myself up like what you kind of talk about so clearly that every time I got lost and I thought I would be beating myself up you can't do this you're terrible you're never gonna do that every time I get lost, I thought. Well, sucks. Totally sucks.

But it sucks more when you don't know your DNA. At least I can distract myself out here by going to watch TV or kicking a ball around my kid. You're on a retreat. It's just you, the hole in the bathroom and your mind. Yeah, it was brutal. It was so brutal. But so the thing is actually what's cool

is that it's less painful when you know that that's what's happening. It's even more painful when you don't know that that's happening. And you didn't know, so. At first I totally didn't. I mean, yeah, at all. So basically, I was, um, I would go into the, I would go into the interviews with the teacher and I would describe my experience. And the teacher would just be like, Oh, great. Good practice. Literally, that's like almost all he ever said was great practice. But you didn't say, oh, well, I'm kicking my own ass when I get, when I go get lost? Well, because at that point, I was just like, I don't, I was like, I'm having a really hard time. Like, I really thought I might go crazy. And so the woman who's sharing, who's like

in this little kutinex to me is actually a teacher now named Annie Nugent, who's at IMS. And she was like, she'd always be outside walking and smiling. She's always smiling. like in this little kutinex to me, is actually a teacher now named Annie Nugent, who's at IMS. And she was like, she'd always be outside walking and smiling, she's always smiling, right? And I was like, what is she doing? We're doing something different, because this is a hell-room for me. And you somehow seem to be having a good time. So I think of this was maybe four weeks in or something.

I ran over to her room and just was like, I can't do this anymore. And like, what are you doing that I'm not doing? So kind of broke. Did she help you? Oh, amazingly. She's the one that pointed out that habit of mind of beating up, of like, she helped me

to sort of trace back the thought process that was happening and those sort of shadow thoughts that were actually kind of controlling everything. Good, say more about that. Because that sounds like some NSA stuff there, but actually it's actually super, there's some there there. Yeah, I mean it's sort of like those sort of those quiet subtle thoughts that actually are in some ways they're quiet and subtle because there are beliefs.

Yeah, right, right, right, right, very hard to see them. They're the water we're swimming in. Exactly. But they're sort of always quietly going on there in the background. And so, and it's interesting if you start looking at your mind and watching thought, if you do like thought meditation practice, you start to see the kind of different loudness and nature of these different kinds of thoughts. But it was basically those really quiet thoughts that are so perfect. You're no good at this, you're probably no good at anything. This is a waste of time, the rest of your life's gonna suck.

Right, totally, you're never, and then what was at that point was getting all that Buddha's doctrine, which when you're on Tina Tree, there's kind of none of that. So I literally didn't even know, I was like, what is this about the Buddha? Everyone keeps talking about the Buddha.

So, you know, we hadn't talked about no self. We hadn't talked about Dukha suffering. We hadn't talked about impermanence. Like those weren't pieces of my training before. And so I'm there and I got it. I was like, yes, this is true. This is the way things are. I could really see the truth of it.

And yet I was like, and I could see that, okay, this was a way out, but I couldn't do it. So then I just felt like stuck in this black vortex of hopelessness. Okay, there are a million things I need to follow up with you. But step back for a second, because you said, once you know you're beating yourself up, it's actually less painful.

I find that to be true, but I don't know if I can articulate why. I know, why what I think for me, it was like, it creates a gap, creates a hole in the movie or something. And then I could, because I would believe it, and then I would actually, how I would start to notice what was happening. I couldn't hear the thoughts. I still couldn't hear you, you're terrible. You suck at this.

You're never going to get it. I didn't actually kind of wasn't conscious of that, but I would start to feel this like dread, depressed kind of feeling, and be like, oh, it just happened. Right, right, right, right. It just happened. And then I would kind of, there's some kind of opening

or letting go that would happen in that moment of it just happened, and then go back to the breath. So it would kind of break the like train. So let me give you an experience from my own meditation, see if we're talking about the same thing.

So I struggle with a lot of doubt. Like am I doing it right? Doubt. And it can make you fall asleep, it can make you restless, it can make you miserable, you're just, you know, it's a terrible feeling of I'm getting lost in thought a million times. I'm no good at this. Am I using the wrong technique? Am I wasting my time if I was in an MRI right now?

What would it show? Am I doing this wrong? It's just a whole spiral. And if I actually just say, that's doubt. It just pops the balloon. So are we talking about the same thing? Yeah, exactly. And so that, I mean, that basically what I was experiencing was self-doubt, but with

a flavor of self-hatred. Yeah, well, at least for me, the two are so closely linked. And also just seeing, and then there is the insight where I suddenly was like, because I could feel the feeling, and I was like, this happens to me a lot. I know this feeling in my life. So this real, I was like, whoa, that was happening. This is the background static of my entire life since like sentience. And I didn't notice it until now.

Yeah, totally. I just was in, I would just get caught up in this like depressed kind of dread feeling and not know what was going on. So did that end or was that the whole way it was the whole time for you? Oh, okay. So that, at that monastery, it was pretty painful the whole time. Well, how long were you there? I was there for about a month and a half. was the whole time for you. Okay, so that, at that monastery, it was pretty painful the whole time. Well, how long were you there?

Was there for about a month and a half? I think you were doing that, but I think we were doing another monastery. So then I was like, all right, I gotta get out of here. Okay, before you get out of there, you're harking back to what you said before about how this is the first time you were dealing with the Buddhist doctrine of no self impermanence in duke.

That's a lot. Yeah. So I don't know that you're gonna be able to give it like an ex-egesis on that, but see if you can. Yeah, so just to say, on the teen meditation retreats, and then I also think in a lot of retreats that I am asked, it's like feel your breath, you kind of get a taste of peace in your mind, you wish you do loving kindness, but they don't go into like Buddhist doctrine, right? And I also think in some ways it's not appropriate for adolescence. I do think they're sort of a stage of

development when it might be appropriate, but basically Duke has the idea that they're suffering that there's or stress or dissatisfaction in life. I mean, you could go into next to Jesus about this I have so many opinions about it at this point, but when I heard it at that time, I heard basically life sucks and everything is painful. That's not quite what the Buddha meant. No, at all.

But that was definitely how I interpreted it. And there's a way that I could say, yeah, that's kind of true and then like, so it was like this hopelessness. Is it never gonna get better? Right, basically, I think a slight, maybe modifier in the correct direction would be like life sucks if you're constantly grasping at things that won't last.

Yeah. Great. Totally. Yeah. And if you believe there's a you thinking the thoughts, right? That you have to protect and, you know, get, yeah, get all these things for. Totally. But at that time, like, not have, there's no nuance for in the teaching. You know, because also it's like the teaching was side-to-openedita, like,

speaking behind a fan, and then it being translated. What speaking behind a fan? This is what they do. They're like, I think it's because they're trying to say, like, that's not him speaking. It's the... It's the dorma coming through him. Yeah. That's a little creepy. Yeah. I mean, I don't mean to be... It's like the least of the weird things out. The smallest problem I don't mean like I don't mean any disrespect towards side open It was a giant so creepy might not have been the right, but it's it's a bit it would be off-putting I would imagine

Yeah, but again, I mean you're in the middle of like just everything is at that point like there's no there's no normal So the yeah sure so do we need to get into impermanence and then yourself? So yeah, I guess impermanence being, you know, everything changes, but then, then like kind of end thing about impermanence that he would really emphasize was like, so you're gonna die and everyone you know is gonna die. Everyone you love is gonna die.

And you would say that a lot, you know? So I'm this 18 year old and the one thing, like kind of getting me through as I think about my family or my boyfriend at home or something and then I was like, oh, now I shouldn't think about them because they're just gonna die. So I wasn't getting any nuance of the teaching. And then the no self thing, zero nuance.

No one was really, they're just like, you don't exist. So I was like, oh my God, I'm a terrible, not only am I terrible, the worst person, and impermanent, like, you don't exist. So they was like, oh my God, I'm a terrible, like not only am I terrible, the worst person, and impermanent, but I also don't exist. That's a tough cocktail. Yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah. No self actually is, it's actually better translated as not self, the T is actually super important

I found just personally, that that's just my opinion. He's actually super interesting, not as nihilistic as one could take it to be. just personally, that's just my opinion. He's actually super interesting, not as nihilistic as one could take it to be. We don't have to get into it here because there's a lot of other stuff I'm gonna talk about. Maybe we'll get back to it. But anyway, so you leave after six weeks, where do you go?

So I went to another monastery, the side of, well, and this is kind of funny. So basically, side of it, Oopendita was always telling me to brush my hair because I had dreadlocks at the time. And so, I was there. I was like a fan of fish. Yeah, they had good fish.

It was sweet. And so, like that. We would not have gotten along. No, you and my husband would. I had not. No, I already get along with your husband. I only met him once. He's awesome.

Yeah, so yeah, I was like, you know, a hippie exploring that part of myself. And so I drove like, so when I was there, I did not take care of them at all. You drove like for way people, it was really hard to take care of. So I doesn't take care of them. They like became a big net. So I just chopped them off in some of the nuns shaved my head.

And so then I happened to be the head monk of the Snuck My Story. I was going to a side at Lakhana, who was up in near, he's in the Sagan Hills. And he, um, and he was like, oh great, you're gonna become a nun. And I was like, no, no, no, no, I had these dreadlocks. I had to, and he was like, no, no, no, you'll become a nun. It's not okay for you to have a shaved head and not be a nun. So I went to this other monster and became a nun. A Buddhist nun for?

Wow, you were a nun. How long? Four weeks. Okay, pretty sure. A short nun. Totally, not long. And how was that place? It was awesome.

So a few things, Saitu, like, and his whole thing is loving kindness practice. Metta, he's kind of known as the loving kindness monk. And so he does a lot of his monks and non-practice a lot of that. I kind of just jump in and just like we've talked about a lot on the show, but some people maybe just maybe this is their first episode. It's a practice where you systematically envision people and people you love, people who've been your benefactors, people who are your close friends, people who are neutral, people who you don't like, and then everybody, all people and animals, and you send them good wishes. That's a rough description. So that was the scene at this place.

So, they were doing, there's a lot of me go on on here. And so it's a it's a chill or atmosphere. And also it was a retreat that my teacher Michelle, oh and Joseph. Joseph Goldstein. Yeah. The guy who for a bunch of probably bad reasons, there's a degree to be my teacher. Yeah. He's the best. And he was there just practicing or he's teaching. Oh great. So they were teaching retreat specifically for Westerners. Oh wow. Okay. So it was Michelle and actually Steve Michelle's partner was supposed to come, but he couldn't get in to the country. So Joseph came.

So it was the two of them teaching the retreat. So that also made it. Nice atmosphere. I mean, no one is nicer than Joseph. Right. And Michelle is like, she was like my Dharma mother. Wow. Seeing her, as soon as I saw her, I just started sobbing. Oh, I'm sure.

She's like so loving and kind of. I haven't met her, but she sounds great So you and but you so you did those four weeks and then you kept going you stayed in Berlin So no, so then I so I see for four weeks there and then I went to India. Oh, okay So I disrobed after that but thinking I wanted to be him a nun for my life. That was kind of like this is what I want to do Wow, so what you went to India with that plan? Yeah. And did you go to another monastery?

I went to, so this was all planned out. My high school roommate was meeting me in India. So this was like in February or we're getting to March. So we went to the Dalai Lama Guest Teachings every March. In Durham, South. In Durham, South. So we went there and sat in those teachings for a couple of weeks.

We did a retreat, a Tibetan retreat. And then we kind of did, it was sort of like a spiritual quest. We went to Bogeya and Varnasi, and then we went to Nepal and did a Tibetan retreat there. Wow. At the end of it, did you like... In Lightning? Were you in Lightning?

Can't you tell? Yes. So you decided not to become a non-confactor fire call. You went back, went to college, even maybe grad school. Yeah, I did. And then you had a career in clean energy? Yeah. Clean energy and climate finance.

And then kind of chucked it all to go run team retreats. Yeah. Why? There are two things. You have to ask your parents if you can become a monk or none for life. Oh. And I call them off from India and she was like, uh, no. I get a saying this?

Yeah. No. That was a piece of it. And then actually I saw the Tibetan monk who was like supposedly a psychic Tibetan monk at this monastery that I was practicing at and I was like, hey I want to become a nun for my life so what I want to do. And he was like, no, you should go home, go home and work. He told me to go home and work.

I was devastated at the time. But I just, I did, I just went home and went to college and yeah, I worked in clean energy and then basically I was volunteering with teen retreats for a number of years. And we decided to make a nonprofit at some point so that we could do more of them around the country. That's I, Bumi. Yeah, that's I, Bumi.

So we formed the nonprofit. That was only in 2010, that we made the nonprofit. Oh. And we hired an executive director, this young guy, who's super healthy, charismatic, young guy, and just about two months after he started with us, he went into a coma and needed a heart transplant. Whoa.

So basically, I was a founding board member and just kind of doing more to keep the organization functioning so that we could still do some retreats. He did get a heart transplant and he's doing awesome. Oh great. Mary and has a baby. Yeah, it's really well. But basically, he needed someone to take over.

And it was kind of like the Buddha story of the heavenly massagers. Is it what happened? You're going to have to know. I have to explain this before you want to know. Oh, yeah, I guess I'll explain. And the whole story of the Buddha's enlightenment was that he was this prince. He had a great life and then he went out and he left. He was supposed to be protected in the palace, and he left the palace, and he saw a sick person,

an old person on the dying person, and that a monk. And basically, that's what encouraged him to start meditating, or to start kind of on a spiritual quest. So I kind of had this idea that I would someday become, like, dedicate myself to meditation completely, but I also had this idea that I really, I wanted to teach from having been deeply embedded in the world, like I didn't want to. A lot of our teachers became teachers when they were like young, very young.

Joseph. Right. When he was like, he started meditating like full time at 22 or something like that. And Sharon and Michelle, like all of all that kind of a lot of that Generation of teachers had done that a lot of them didn't have kids and get married and I just had this like inclination that I wanted to be like a busy crazy person and

Meditate so that I could then teach crazy busy people about how to meditate you should start teaching me could then teach crazy busy people about how to meditate. You should start teaching me. Great. I mean, I think you have a good teacher. He's the eyes, all right. But busy crazy, I understand. So sorry, you were in the middle of, I think, telling me about your decision to go to college and stay

working and wait, actually, no, you were talking. I was going to have a meeting. Yeah, to have a meeting. Yeah. So that was my whole idea. This point I was like in my early, about 30. This young guy, Jesse, who had Jesse Torrance, who had gotten head of the heart transplant, was like 29, 30.

I met my husband, who was recovering from lymphoma, his stage 4 cancer, and had a bone marrow transplant. And I mean, I had been really sick, almost died. And then my roommate, who I I lived with got leukemia. Wow. And started going through treatment and had to have a bone marrow transplant which was pretty crazy having that combination and then my brother got really sick and died not long after that. So basically it was just this and all of those people were in their like late 20s or

30s. And it was just this moment of like, wait, I love meditation. I love teen retreats. It's like the one time my year when I don't question whether what I'm doing is worthwhile. There might not be a later. Basically, it was like there might not be a later. There might not be like when you're 60, you can do that. This was the right time to hear the impermanence argument as opposed to when you're 18.

Exactly. Then it was like, right, carpet. It was more of a like take advantage of this time, like 30. If this is what you love and this is most meaningful to you, you should be doing it now. And so I quit my career and started running this organization. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground up.

Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace, Manduke Yoga Mats, Soul Cycle, and and cotopaxi, as well as entrepreneurs working to solve some of the biggest problems of our time, like developing technology that pulls energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight. Together, they discussed their entire journey from day one, and all the skills they had to learn along the way, like confronting big challenges, and how to lead through uncertainty. So if you want to get inspired, and learn how to think like an entrepreneur, check out

how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early, and add free, on the Amazon, or Wondery app. Why do you like working with teens so much? Because I mean a lot of sane adults like do their best to avoid teenagers at all costs. I'm actually not anti teenager, although you know I was in a, I gave a speech earlier today at a high school and I mean they're crazy. I love them, they're crazy though. So why do you, why do you, you actually live with a bunch of teenagers because your husband

teaches at a school and suburban Massachusetts, you guys live in one of the dorms, you can't get away from these people. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I love working with teenagers with adolescents. So I've recently been working now more also with college students and love that age group as well. I mean, I love how much energy they have. They're so creative and energetic, so it's just fun. It's one piece of it. The other piece is like, I like to say they have less like crust on their hearts than adults do. So they much more quickly put in the right atmosphere with the right conditions, like learning this practice with

a bunch of people who are kind and seeing them in their best selves, they go back to that best self pretty quickly and just like all of that natural human instinct to be generous, to be compassionate, to be caring. In five days, they're transformed. And I think that that happens a lot more quickly with young people. That's amazing. And your description of it is fantastic. I'm just interpolating back to when I was a kid and just really in a knucklehead and not nice. I just don't know what would have happened if I went on one of the, I don't think you would have been able to get me onto one of those retreats, but I wasn't in touch with a best self. Well, I mean, a few things. First of all, I don't think that every teenager should meditate necessarily or come on teen retreat.

I mean, I do think it would be cool if every teenager knew that there was this practice, and they could kind of get a taste of it, and then they could decide if it was helpful for them. But a retreat is intense. They meditate about five hours a day. And we definitely, they have to want to be there to come on the retreat,

but we definitely have kids whose parents strongly encourage them to go. What is, tell me what, what you do on these retreats? So it's, it's basically a mix throughout the day of we do sitting meditation, walking meditation, yoga, loving kindness every day, compassion practice. We do two hours of small group work, which is, is that hot seat exercise? Yeah. So what is a hot seat exercise?

So I think a hot seat is like a group meditation. You're in the hot seat right now. Yeah, exactly. Part of it, there would be like 10 other people staring at me and asking me questions. Gotcha. That would be the process. But this is more torture history.

Yeah. Oh yeah, I mean, so part of hot seat, the whole. But this is more torture. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, so part of Hotsie, the whole idea of it is that like, so you are the object of a minute. If you choose to be, you become the object of meditation. And so part of that, just like we're practicing with our breath, our mind, you're cultivating that kind, curious attention, but on that person. So we really practice like you keep your eyes on them, you keep your, if you notice that your mind's wandering off, you bring it back. I'm doing that with you. I'm not, I'm not, that was not sarcastic.

Yeah, great. And then it's just like the clear that I'm like the kind of guy who has to say that. Well then it's then the whole, the whole idea of it is like you're just following your kind curiosity. So you're like there's no agenda behind your questions. They're just like, what's kind of arising in this moment out of curiosity and you follow that. Though they're not necessarily often those get into questions that are pretty hot, like profound, but it's not like you're trying to ask the hardest question, it's just like what's naturally arising. But teenagers can be mean. So that doesn't never become sort of nasty. It's really facilitated.

So the adult staff in the group are facilitating it. So you have to raise your hand to ask a question. You ask your question, they answer. You have to say thank you. It's over. It's not a back and forth. So as a facilitator, we have a lot of control over. Not prosecutorial.

Yeah. We get to kind of shift direction. But we really rarely have to do that. Because the whole atmosphere that we create on the Tina Treat is so kind and accepting. This is the foundation of what's happening. And that happens because of the staff, because of the way that we engage them.

This is like, people want to be authentic and kind. We want to do, I mean, we're mean because we're trying to protect ourselves in some way. So if given a space where you feel safe to do that, people will do that. Tell me if you think this is a close enough analog. And when I was 12 and 13, all my friends were having bar mitzvahs and butt mitzvahs.

And I was only half Jewish, but I like, I didn't bullied my parents into like, Santa me to Hebrew school, because I wanted to go, I wanted a bar mitzvahs and butt mitzvahs and I was only half Jewish but I like bullied my parents into like Santa me to Hebrew school because I wanted to go to go to that one of the bar mitzvahs for social acceptance and maybe some cash and Hebrew school had a whole different vibe when I was at Hebrew school where it was like kind of like openly, dopey, nerdy where we're learning this other language where they went in the wrong direction, and we would sing these Hebrew folk songs. And it's like actually people drop the mask in that context. Close?

Yeah, I think that is. I think that's what the kids talk about. They totally drop the mask completely. And I mean, they take the precepts to be kind to each other. And then we're facilitating this process. Like, there's a really high teen to staff ratio. So if we're seeing kind of behavior, language, like, we're actively facilitating.

What do you do? How do you, you talked about the need for rules? What do you do if kids run off and are, you know, hook it up in the woods or the smoke and weed or something like that? What's the punishment? They have to go home. Oh, okay. Yeah, we send them home.

And the thing is though, with all this, we try not to, like, we really don't want to have a policing relationship with teens. It's like really a trust and deep respect. And basically saying, we trust you to, like, and if you respect the spaces of what we need to do, and we really talk about why, and we have the older teens who have been there before talk about why. I mean, they say the most beautiful things about why it's important to be celibate on our tree eater.

What, what do they say? I mean, one of the biggest things is like that energy when you're attracted to someone, when you're crushing on someone, is so distracting. And then it like takes away, so part of what we're doing is creating this inclusive community. And when two people are doing that, it kind of naturally creates this exclusion and takes away from the kind of safety and connection of the whole group. It's like one of the things I'll say. Just for themselves, then a lot of them will say, like, I feel safe here. I don't feel like I have to be protecting myself

from kind of the sexual gaze. I can just be friends with people and feel safe in that way. That makes a lot of sense. It really does. What else goes on it? I kind of cut you off when you were listing things to talk about the hot seed. There is some hiking on some of these. Yeah, so the other thing that happens on most of our treats is, or, yeah, we always have an hour and a half workshop period in the afternoon, which is the, it's a whole range of things.

The teens get to choose what they wanna do, but those will be like mindful sports, which Doug, my husband always does, arts, creative writing, but also discussions about gender or sexuality, diversity. We do a lot of social justice workshops, things like that. And then hiking our nature practices. So that's our residential retreat.

We basically rent a place like an IMS and then have a teen retreat there. When we go into the wilderness, so then we also have a backpacking wilderness retreat, which is a little bit longer, and we go back-backs, go out in the wilderness and camp along the way, so that the schedule's a little bit different, but we're meditating out in the wilderness. We along the way. So that the schedule is a little bit different, but we're meditating out in the wilderness.

We have still the silence at night, and then we do a longer solo period. So there's two nights when they'll be alone. Wow. And we encourage them to practice, to be able to use mindfulness in that setting. There's a funny, I don't know if you read Sam Harris's book, Waking Up, he talks about how he was on some sort of teen retreat

I don't think it was a meditation retreat, but some sort of wilderness experience when he was a kid and there was a A lone part a solitary part of it and he said his letters home rivaled anything you would have seen from Gallipoli and You know a shy low just like complete self-pity You know all this stuff because I don't think he was prepared the way you're preparing kids to be alone and look at their mind. What kind of transformations, if any, do you see on these portrays?

I mean, we see massive transformations. I mean, we've had kids, and I'll just think about the summer. They, so they have to be alcohol and drug-free, and ideally, we ask them to be alcohol and drug-free before that if they've been struggling with addiction, but we'll have kids that come, and it'll be their first time not swiping pot for years,

when they come on their retreat. And just like their ability to, first of all, start to be with whatever the feelings are, that they've been avoiding. And then go through that process of like really getting close to what's actually happening in their experience and why they might, like, why they've been using pot or it's a drug to kind of avoid that

and then what they might want it, like that they don't want to do it again. So that kind of shift. For me, some of the most powerful pieces are seeing the connections that happen across some pretty big difference between the kids. Like, we have a real diversity of teenagers on our retreats. It's a radical, siding scale.

So some kids just paint nothing. Some, you know, come from really wealthy families. So they're coming from completely different life experiences. And these, in the small groups in those hot seats, one of the big things they see is like, yeah, we have differences, but actually ultimately, you ultimately, we experience life in a similar way on some level. So kids just seeing that across what they, you'd initially, and they'll say this all the time, like, I had this idea of who you were, you know, you were a jock or you were a punk or whatever it is.

And then by the end of the small group, it's like, they're so connected and intimate because they've seen below. So that feel is really meaningful for me when I see them connect to cost them. And that scales to the rest of your life because every time we see somebody subconscious, so we're making up a story about them. You wrote a piece in Greater Good, which is a website associated,

affiliated with the University of California, Berkeley, I believe. Yeah. About, well, first of all, it showed that teenagers are really stressed these days.. About, well, first of all, it showed that teenagers are really stressed these days. And that, apparently, there was a study that shows that meditation appears to help.

Do you think we ought to be teaching every, you know, should every, any parent on the line now, who's listening right now, should they be thinking about meditation for their kids? And should we be doing it in public schools? What about concerns around sectarian influence, et cetera, et cetera, all this stuff about the Buddha and whatnot? I mean, so coming back, what that was referring to

was we did research on our retreats. That was an article about the research that came out on our retreats. Oh, okay. That was just published. That was basically showing that even three months after the retreat, the teens had improvements in mood and a lot of it around their life satisfaction

and how they felt about themselves. But actually what was most touching for me about or important about that research was that the teens who had the biggest shift in self-compassion who developed more versus mindfulness. So there's a study of like, you could see how mindful they were and then how self-compassion they were. The self-compassion was much more correlated

with their, the benefits lasting, and with greater benefits later. And they also were asked, are you in loving kindness, meditation, or mindfulness? And the more loving kindness that they did, that had these longer lasting benefits. So that was just interesting for me in terms of how we frame, like what we teach and stuff like that. And it makes sense, because all of us are dealing with the jerk in our heads as you call it.

Yeah, not use a different word. Yeah. Okay, so that's what that was about, but do I think, should every parent listening to this get their kid to meditate? I think every parent listening to this should meditate. That's brilliant. Yeah, and let that be the influence for their kids on some level. And then, I mean, this is like the quintessential challenge.

I think if you have younger kids, you can definitely do practices, and there's a lot of great books out there that you can do. Just simple moments of peace, you know, quiet, feel your breath, feel your emotions. But also with the Eric kids again, it's like they know this way better than we do. So it's more like just hang out with your kids and really hang out with them. It's probably the best thing to do. I can't see getting my one and a half year old to meditate. Yeah, I don't probably not. I think within one and a half year old that's you meditating on him. That's the meditation.

You mean just paying attention to him when I'm with it. Full, complete attention. And then maybe following his lead. Just chewing on his fat leg, count his meditation because I do that a lot. Good for you. I mean, I was like, I was actually just with the baby with the father asking me this exact question last night. About the chewing on the leg. About how to meditate with a baby. Catching his left screwed up the good term. Yeah, yeah, but he was doing, you know, he was kind of, there's a lot of cuddling, it's cute. But I also think, you know, the baby was like

picking up the grass and like trying to eat everything. But what they do. It's annoying. I know. But I was also like, but you could also like join them and get that fascinated in the grass and like, yeah, you know, I mean, that kind of process, which isn't a way very much like mindfulness. So I'm just making that up because I don't have kids and I don't actually notice.

But you can see the world of fresh just by just empathizing with the fact that they are doing that very thing. Yeah. So I think with the younger kids that's what you can do, I think when they get to 4-5, you can start to do some simple, there's a really cute one where they put their teddy bear on the belly and breathe in. But I think that's actually happening even south of four or five,

right? Doesn't Richie Davidson, who has been on this podcast, I think he was doing some stuff with preschoolers. Yeah, four is obviously preschool, but I think even lower than that. I don't know, don't quote me on that. Okay, I mean, I don't, I focus on teenagers. Right, but it's okay. So if I'm a parent with a teenager, what do I, in my, in't quote me on that. I mean, I don't, I focus on teenagers. Right, but it's okay.

So if I'm a parent with a teenager, what am I, in my teenagers jerk, like I was, what do you do about it? Right, so as you know, if you're a parent with a teenager, you can't get them. If you tell them to meditate, it's probably the worst way to get them to meditate. Yes.

So one of our, the call that we get the most, it might be me as parents saying, how do I get my kid to come on your retreat? Mm-hmm. Uh, what do you say? Basically, we have videos we've made a bunch of, so one of the ways for you to have videos with teens talking about their experience and teens, you know, they're normal kids, they're

cool kids, like, so we say, you might direct them to watch this video or, uh, you know or just leave a fly around. Basically, we try to get our marketing to be teen-friendly, not aimed at the parents. Yeah, exactly. It's not going to be a tough sell for parents, I would agree. Exactly. And then what we find is that the team's reach will grow

really organically because teams will bring their friends and siblings year after year, so grow as much more that way. I do think having mindfulness in schools is really great and effective. But again, I think it totally depends on who the person is. And this is, you know, we've mentioned my husband,

but I don't teach in schools. I'll go on and do presentations or day longs, but he's full timetime teaching mindfulness to all the students of the school. He went to this high school and he's in the sports hall of fame at the high school. He was like a national champion, the cross player, and he's also incredibly sweet. But basically, he's a great ambassador for young people to play that role, to introduce us. So I think it does kind of, it does matter a little bit how you frame it, but mostly what you need to be is totally authentic with young people.

If you're going to teach it. Yeah, but the school where your husband teaches is a private school. Yeah. There have been some, you know, skirmishes in public schools where people try to bring it in, including on Cape Cod, not far from you, because you're in Tata Boston, where parents of faith are unhappy about this. Do you have a view? Yeah, well, I mean, in that case, they dropped it, because they didn't, they lost it and go through, because they can't sell it.

But other places they've succeeded. I think more with yoga, then really mindfulness hasn't really gotten to that stage yet. In a way, the community was hoping it would in Cape God so that we could it could the case could be you know taken and we could see what would happen I think the way that it's so you definitely have to be careful about how it's taught but We're not teaching any belief system. I think that's what it comes down to for me. It's and Actually or often like you don't have don't believe me, like, actually don't

believe me. That's what the Buddha said. Right. So we take that all the time, it's just like, don't believe like this, just explore for yourself and see if you find this to be interesting. And I honestly think if a teen comes on our teen retreat, they, they really try it. And then they're like, I don't, I don't like meditation. I'll be like, great.

Awesome. Don't do it. I really think that. But so taking that kind of a stance and then we're not, you know, I pointed, I talked about Duke or we don't, we don't do that, right? Suffering. Suffering. But in a way, you can just say like, it's just the reality.

Like you were saying it's common sense. Like we're just- It's maybe advanced common sense. Yeah. But in a way, when you point it out, you're like, they're stressed. People, things happen that we don't want to happen. And most of us have had some experience by the time we're a teenager, that's painful,

that we don't like. We also like pointing out what's going on in their minds. They're feelings of being at a control or painful, like in giving them specific tools for managing that. It's common sense. So basically, I just don't think it's, there's not a lot of belief or dogma to it. So to me, it doesn't get, I don't think it gets

into the space of religious. What's your daily practice now? How much are you doing and what? Right now I'm practicing between about an hour and two, two hours a day. Nice. That's good. It's a lot.

My primary practice for the past few years, about an hour and two, two hours a day. Nice. It's good. It's a lot. Yeah. My primary practice for the past few years, like past year and a half has been doing a really somatic meditation. I mean body sensations. Yeah. Body sensations. But I would say body sensations from the inside.

Okay, I don't understand. Like, okay, so right now. Like feeling your pancreas. Well, okay, right now, like feel your foot. If you feel your foot. Are you feeling your foot as if you're looking down at your foot? I don't think so.

You feel like your awareness is inside of the foot. Yeah, I do. Great, so that's what I mean. So really being like deeply in, but having your awareness inside of the experience. Yeah, I think I do, I don't know. But I could be completely overestimated. I am known to overestimate my abilities

in lots of areas. But I see the difference as he would, you're saying. There's a difference between thinking about what your hand feels like and just feeling it. Right. And even like, some type can be really connected to this kind of, it can almost be like a witnessing, you know, like we're looking down at our experience.

But this is kind of letting it well up. Yeah, exactly. But even that well up to what, as if there's some nowhere to move. Yeah, but that's so, so I don't actually think of it as a well up. Yeah. It's like just being, having the awareness kind of embedded inside of the experience. So that's a piece of it, but also just kind of doing that

also, I find deeply relaxing. So how does it actually work? You sit down, start feeling your foot, like what's the? OK, and so the other piece of what I'm doing too is a loving kindness practice, but a somatic. So no longer using the words, not doing the kind of visualization or mantra practice,

it's much more of a felt sense, loving kindness, practice. So you call somebody to mind and have just a felt sense of them? Yeah, but then it's like the felt sense of wishing well. Oh, but with a target. the felt sense of wishing well. But with a target. Or is it just wishing well? Both.

I'll do both. Interesting. Yeah. And, but how does the so the somatic stuff do your term? How does that work? So I've been practicing a lot with a teacher named Reggie Ray. Yeah, you've told me about him. And he's got really amazing adaptations.

So, kind of when an hour-long practice could look like it's starting lying down, which is great. It's a good way to convince yourself to meditate and then actually doing a... Can lead to a nap, though. Yeah, so you have to be... Sometimes I even... I set my alarm when I do like 10 minutes, I have a 10 minute ding, so that I have to be sometimes even I set my alarm and I do like 10 I have a 10 minute Ding so that then I have to sit up. So

First time in this lying down like it's a body scan, but with the With relaxing so a lot of body scans are just like just feel what's happening and you're not changing the experience There is an attitude of Trying to relax. I do that too. So when I do a body scan meditation, I start, I say to myself like if I start at the top of the head, soften the head. This is the way Joseph teaches it or often teaches it. And then that you're actually softening your muscles or whatever, each at each area of

the body. It's actually it actually quite relaxing, but you are also paying attention, so I feel like you get both. Right, totally. Yeah, which is great. I actually have impressive just so that much. You get a little buzzy.

Yeah, totally, which is great. There's a little natural high there. Right, and maybe sometimes more there a little. Oh yeah, you can get all these really pleasant sensations running through your body, which is like a factor, it's one can get kind of like all these like really pleasant sensations on your body. For sure. Which is like a factor, it's one of the factors of awakening. It's one of the like, it's like joy.

It's a PT, that energetic joy. P-I-T-I, it's an ancient Indian word, but yes, I agree. Although I worry a little bit about, you know, I have a pretty addictive personality. I worry a little bit about like, you know, am I just trying to get a buzz? Do you? Is that a weird? Well, no, no, like, what do you think? Do you feel like addicted to that feeling?

Yeah, actually, it gets a little old, after a while, which is interesting. I was so impressed with myself that I could even get there, but because meditation was for so many years, just such a death march that I could make it pleasant sometimes or that it could be pleasant. I of course personalized it by making it pleasant, but I was sort of proud of myself. And then it was just kind of when once the even being proud of myself wore off, it was just the novelty of it and then it felt good. I want a more, but then after a while, I was like, all right, I get it. Yeah.

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, people say that, but it doesn't seem, I don't feel like I get it. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, people say that, but it doesn't seem, I don't feel like I get addicted to it in that same way. I mean, there are moments when it will start to shift and they'll be that feeling. I'm like, oh no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, but they're just noticing that, right?

They're just noticing the clinging to the thing is important. Right. So, it's different than, like, kind of, addictive behavior of, like, having another drink or something. But so basically I do that. I lie down, I deeply relax my body, I sit up. If I'm doing just not a loving kind of practice, I'm feeling my body sitting and just holding the awareness kind of in the center of my body. So feeling the posture. I've gotten a lot more into posture since we're here with Reggie. So a much straighter back, you know, we're

really working with a elongated back. And then lightly holding the breath, the attention on the breath of the low belly. And then when you get lost, as you say, escorting your attention gently back to the posture. So the first, escorting your attention gently back to the posture. So the first thing I'll do is come back to the posture and notice, because you'll notice when you do that, the body often tenses when we get lost, right? There's two things that happen. One, the body tenses when we get lost. The other thing that I found really interesting is often we get lost because there's some sensation we don't want to feel.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dissociation. Yeah. That's like almost always when I'm getting lost. There's something happening in my experience that I don't want to feel. And so then what I'll do is I'll come back, soften and relax and look for what's going on. Yeah. What is it that I don't want to be with? Joseph talks about struggle as a feedback. When you're struggling with something or experience, go take a look at that. And then it's like, oh, wow, there's this like total clenching in my chest. Or a piss, and I don't want to let it be there.

And then it's like this experience of, then I, when I try to do it, soften around, get close to it, you know, develop some like willingness to be with it. And then just, you just notice how the mind will naturally like bounce off, because it doesn't want to be with it. And then you just notice how the mind will naturally bounce off because it doesn't want to be there. So that's basically that practice. When I do loving kindness practice, I connect into the earth in a really deep way, which now thinks this is a little reluctant to talk about.

That's great, because I picture you with red locks. I know exactly. But what's interesting is like just in this moment, right? Getting a sense, it's almost like you let your awareness drop down beneath you. And even with this building, you can think about the building being embedded foundation in the earth. And there's a way that that spreads out all around us. And when I do that, it just sort of somehow kind of chills my nervous system a little bit.

You know it for all of my nihilistic sarcasm, I agree with you. I see it and I agree. Yeah, so I don't know why, but it just does. Well, there's that term groundedness, right? Yeah. It's not, you know,, but it just does. Well, there's that term groundedness, right? I mean, it's not yeah, it's a real thing so you were you were mildly Am bivalent when you walked in I could I could sense it on you when I walked into the room and you were about doing this How are you feeling now? You feeling okay? You still kind of a little bit freaking out?

Um a little bit for you. Really? Yeah, you did very well. Okay. Um What's the website the website is? a little bit for you. Really? Yeah, for a good. You did very well. What's the website? The website is IB as in Boy, ME. So inward bound, minus and less, education, ibm.info. So there you have it. There's another edition of the 10% happier podcast.

If you like it, please make sure to subscribe, tell some friends about us, leave us a quick review. All of that really helps us keep the show going. I want to thank you for listening. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast possible. Internally, here at ABC News, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohan, Sarah Amos, Andrew Calves, Steve Jones, and the head of ABC News Digital Dance Silver. If you want to suggest topics we should cover or guess we should bring on the show, the best way to do that is hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. I love hearing from you and I really do listen to the suggestions so please keep in coming. And if you want to learn a little bit more about how to meditate, you can check out the 10%

happier app. We'll be back as we are every Wednesday with a brand new episode. Until then, take it easy. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com-survey.