Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 472: How a Buddhist Monk Deals With Anxiety | Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Episode Date: July 11, 2022

Anxiety has long been a massive societal issue that has spiked during the pandemic.In this episode, renowned Buddhist monk Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche talks in detail about how he personally works with anxiety and panic and the practices he draws upon when dealing with these states. Mingyur began doing long retreats in his teens and now teaches all over the world.  He’s written the books The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness and In Love with the World: A Monk's Journey Through the Bardos of Living and Dying. He also oversees the Tergar Meditation Community, a global network of Buddhist meditation centers.  In this episode we talk about: Working with strong emotions using sound and the breathDeconstructing your reality to make it workableUnderstanding what awareness is in a Buddhist sense How to make meditation free-range and available to you all times The simple but also tricky advice of, “stop doing and just be” When to take a step back or even take a break from meditationWhat Mingyur Rinpoche says is the true purpose of the practice.This interview was recorded in person at the TED conference in April of 2022, where both Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche and Dan Harris spoke.Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/yongey-mingyur-rinpoche-472See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, I had a funny experience recently. I was asked to give a TED talk, which hasn't posted yet. It'll be out in a few months. In any event, I showed up at the TED conference in Vancouver and I was completely freaked out and anxious. I know I've been doing public speaking my whole life, so how could I be nervous?

Don't forget, I'm the guy with a panic attack on live television. And while that was largely fueled by cocaine, which I don't do anymore, I do still sometimes get nervous about public speaking. Plus, I had never done a TED talk before, which seemed like a uniquely terrifying experience. Also I was debuting material from a book I've been working on for four years, and I was very nervous about how it would be received. So I was super relieved on the first day when I went to lunch in the area where all of the speakers have their meals, and I saw that Yanga Mingyue Rinpoche was there. You may have heard that name before. He's

been on this show a couple of times. He's a renowned Buddhist monk from Nepal. He's also the son of a revered meditation master, which is why Mingyur began doing long retreats in his teens and now teaches all over the world. He's written some books, including one called The Joy of Living and another called In Love with the World. And he oversees the Tergar meditation community, a global network of Buddhist meditation centers. In any event, when I saw a finger, I went right up to him and asked,

how are you doing? And his answer was dying. In other words, he was just as nervous as I was. Well, probably not just as nervous given his training. I wasn't entirely surprised by this fact, given that he's been very public about his history of panic and anxiety. But this was a delightful example of how open, honest, and relatable the guy is.

And even though he was nervous, he took plenty of time to look out for me. The next morning, we got together and he led me in a personalized guided meditation. We talked about how to handle fear and anxiety. And so today, he's going to do that for all of us. As we all know, anxiety has been a massive societal issue for quite a while, but it has really spiked during the pandemic. Speaking personally, I sometimes feel like I have a sometimes conscious, sometimes subconscious inner program that is constantly secreting the following thought track. How am I doing? Is everything okay? Does this

person like me? Am I safe, etc.? In this interview, Mingur talks in great detail about how he personally works with anxiety and panic, and the specific practices he draws upon from his years of study. And I should say these practices are doable for all of us. We talked about working with strong emotions using sound and the breath, working with strong emotions using sound and the breath, deconstructing your reality to make it workable. He'll explain exactly what that means. Understanding what awareness means in a Buddhist sense and how it's our fundamental nature

and is always with us. How to make our meditation free range and available at all times. The simple but also tricky advice of stop doing and just be when to take a step back or even take a break from meditation. And what Mingur says is the true purpose of the practice. Oh, I should say before we dive in that we recorded this at the TED conference. Big thanks to the wonderful folks from that organization who gave us the space and equipment

to record. A couple of days after we recorded Rinpoche delivered his talk, I was in the fourth row, he completely nailed it and got a standing ovation, anxiety, notwithstanding. We'll let you know when that talk gets posted. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily

by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay. On with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast,

Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad where the memes come from. And where's time for MySpace? Listen to Baby This is Kiki Palmer on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcast. on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Mingi Rinpoche, welcome back to the show. Great to see you. It's so nice to be with you in person. I have to say. Thank you. Thank you very much. And full disclosure to people listening, I've had a chance to spend a little bit of time

with Rinpoche over the last couple of days and I consider that to be an extreme privilege. Thank you very much. As we talk, as we sit here right now, you are personally two days away from your first TED Talk. And one of the things that's really helped me as I was ramping up to deliver my first TED Talk yesterday was that you were very open with me about the fact that you have been nervous. The fact the first day where I saw you, which was the first day of Ted, I said, how are you doing? And you smiled and said, dying. And to have somebody who's practiced as deeply as you have admit that was just incredibly impactful for me.

So I'd love to hear, how are you doing right now as your talk approaches and how do you handle your nervousness and anxiety? Of course, I feel nervous about this. There's some kind of sense of fear. But for me, the most important thing is I always discover kind of like, can be with something beyond fear and anxiety within me, kind of a deeper level, the sense of contentment, like joy. And these are why I feel like that way, because I received a lot of meditation teachings

in the past and I've been practicing meditation. And the sense of discovery that our fundamental nature is wonderful. There is what I call awareness, love and compassion, wisdom, three in one. And that is the background of fear, the background of panic, depression. Of course, life has so many things, not so easy. Up and down, up and down.

And I cannot stop up and down. And even if I stop up and down, I become like zombie, isn't it? So in a way, I'm happy to have some anxiety. But at the same time, of course, anxiety is anxiety. And I'm fully aware of this anxiety. But at the same time, I don't mind to have anxiety, kind of a too funny feeling together yet.

Let me see if I can restate some of that back to you just to make sure that I understand it. It's so interesting to hear the notion that you're happy to have anxiety on some level. So if I understand this correctly, there are the waves in your mind, fear, nervousness, but then there is what is knowing that the waves are there. Awareness, which comes with love and wisdom. Awareness, awareness, love and wisdom, please. So when I was young, when I feel nervous, what I have is only nervous. That's all. Deeper level, uncertainty, cold, lonely sometime,

although my father kept telling me you have this wonderful nature and I don't believe it, I thought he's doing his job, you know, father's job. Just try to please me. But then, as I practice meditation, this experiential style,

and there's ahah, each time. And then I had panic attacks when I was young. That really helps me. I'm considered my panic as my teacher, my friend. So now, I went, you know, wandering retreat. Life is not so easy. I was with my attendant, with a wonderful place, with nice food, nice warm bed, comfort zone.

Of course, a little bit naive at the beginning I'm thinking that, oh, you know, wonderful things happen. Not. I almost died. But even the moment I'm almost going to die, I try to practice meditation. And what I discover is, awareness is so present. Even though my body began paralyzed, I cannot see, I cannot hear. And the normal thought I've gone, but the fundamental quality of awareness become more vivid or present. I think a lot of people will hear this and say, okay, that sounds great. I've got so much stress and anxiety in my life. I've got good things too, but there are ups and downs and the downs suck.

And you're saying I need to not have the downs or the anxiety or the fear or the anger, whatever, take up the whole screen. I need to be able to drop out of it and into this space of non-judgmental warm awareness. How? So the key point is not try to get out of panic or not try to fight with panic. Not try to do anything with panic actually.

The key point is be with awareness. So I was born in the Himalayan mountain right middle of the mountain what we call Manasilo, at highest mountain in the world. And we have a lot of storms in the Himalayan mountain. The winter, we have synostrum, summer, thunderstorm. I was really afraid of those storms, you know. Is it time to do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do,

like that, and run, I had to, quick, run inside my house and hiding there. And the winter, we have synostrum, the wind coming from the north to the south. And I run and hold the pillar in the middle of the house and my mom was laughing. So much of happening in the mountain and my father said, all these storms cloud comes in the sky, but no matter how the stone, stone there in the sky, the nature of sky cannot be changed by stone,

or pollution. Sky is always present, pure, calm, and you can, you can help cloud, allow cloud to come and go. But the problem is, of course, whenาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว,ลาว My head is only panic. I cannot see this wonderful sky within me. But then he said, you have to connect with that systematic practice. Step by step. So first step for me is sound meditation. So, important thing is, we just listen to sound.

Let panic come and go. Don't try to stop panic. Important thing is, what we call awareness to check. Do I still remember the sound or not? As long as if you still remember, you can have thought, you can have panic, you can have pizza, what I call it. What is it? Pizza. Pizza.

To pizza, three pizza. Ten pizza comes around you. If you still hear the sound, you are fine. So that is meditation. So when you allow these things, then that is the beginning of acceptance, beginning of forgiveness, self-love, self-compassion.

Not so easy, of course. And for me, it's not easy. I've been meditating since 9. But still, I'm learning every year. And that is why you're happy to have nervousness and anxiety for your talk, because it's teaching you to get better at meditation. Yep. And make me more alive, and it reminds me more practice.

I'd love to get you to say a little bit more about how to do this sound meditation, because I, as you were describing it, I was kind of projecting myself into it and imagining that I would be sitting there listening, say I'm sitting in a hotel room and I'm hearing the traffic noise outside and the motion and the elevator shaft and maybe the cleaning staff in the hallway hearing all of these sounds

and then noticing big waves of fear, anxiety, or whatever afflictive emotion happens to be in the playground at that time. And I can imagine yanking myself back into the sound, kind of being aggressive about, oh no, no, no, you've gotten lost, bad boy, be hyper vigilant for more sounds to listen to, so that we can get out of this terrible emotion. I know that's not the correct way to practice, but I can imagine myself practicing in that way. So what should I do? Yeah, of course.

At the beginning, what we call, is very difficult to work with a strong emotion. So at the beginning, we try to find a nice place, quite reasonable, calm environment, and you can begin with quite calm sound at the beginning. But how to practice that, normal what we call relax, muscles in your body, relax meaning let it be as it is, if you cannot relax, allow that cannot relax. Just be as it is, and keep spine loosely straight, and you can close your eyes if you want at the beginning. Then just listen.

Ear and the mind together. Let's say I'm snapping. Just if you're here now, that is meditation actually. Just here, here with your mind. Sometime, we hear the sound with the ear and mind only listen or thinking with the pizza. Forget about the sound. But if you not forget the sound, you are in meditation.

You don't need strong focus. You don't need to stop thought and any sound, actually, if you are in the hotel, people are chatting, you can listen to chat, or the car, the traffic. You can jump to the traffic, or maybe birds are there, you can listen to birds,

or someone coughing, you can listen to cough. You can jump here and there, no problem, as long as if you remember the sound. It's like, almost like pre-pro listening, meaning you just open your ear. You don't need to even look for sound. Let's sound country, you. And I was, we cannot listen sound too long at the beginning. Only a few seconds, what I call glimps.

Glimps, we may forget, or we are unclear, it doesn't matter. Okay, short time, many times. What happened? Then slowly, slowly awareness becomes more salient. Actually, what we call you, you don't have to do anything, just being with the sound. And that really changed actually my become pliable and walkable. Yes. I wonder if people might get confused when you say remember the sound because people might think, well I'm recalling some sound from a few minutes ago, but you mean just remember to hear what's effortlessly appearing in your ear right now. Yes. Remember that you're still hearing. Am I forget the sound? Oh no, no, I'm still hearing. If you hear, you're fine.

But problem, most people, what they do is, I have to focus on the thought coming in. Pisa came in, no, no, no, shh, only sound, very clear, concentrated, then become problem. Ha, ha, ha. Well, you've just described most of my meditation career right there, and what has really helped me is to remember that the awareness requires no effort at all. It is happening without quote unquote me.

And sometimes I even just say the word in my mind effortless just to bring me back to the fact that I don't have to do anything to hear. It's happening without me. Yes. Yes. That's correct. That's correct. So that's aha without me. Yes, yes, that's correct. That's correct. So, that's ah.

Yes, that is ah. And you will discover more about yourself. And that is awareness is your fundamental nature. Your consciousness is awareness. And that awareness, sometimes what we call luminosity, clarity and self-luminosity, it's like lamb awareness itself is a wakeful a wakeful present So actually you don't have to meditate

You just be with your mind as it is everything's there, but of course it's a time to do not do you know? Right right right right exactly takes time to learn how to not do. Yes. And I think what's so helpful about your honesty, about your own situation, about your own mind, is that even all these years into meditation, all these people you've taught how to meditate, here you are at a moment where there's some anxiety coming up in your own mind, and you have to remember to be with whatever's happening right now rather than eating the pizza. Yeah. Coming up, Mingur Rinpoche on connecting with awareness through sound and the breath, how to think about meditation as building a muscle and specific practices for working with

anxiety and panic right after this. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on page six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellasai. And I'm Sydney Battle. And we're the host of Wonder East New Podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud from the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feuds say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans form the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship,

Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Brittany. Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondering app. Before we started rolling, you said there were three steps that you often discuss with your students. Because I asked you, what are you hearing from your students these days?

And you said anxiety, not only about their own lives and also about the state of the world. The first step I believe was sound meditation, which we've covered. Yeah. So first step is what we call awareness. It's always with us, always pressing, wonderful, but to connect with that at the beginning, not so easy. For example, this room has full of light, right? Now there's a light here, and this empty room. So how you connect to the light, not easy to see light in the empty space. You can see light on that wall, here on the table, on your face.

So you can see light on something. In the space itself, to connect with the light in the space itself is quite difficult at the beginning. So therefore, we need to have support. The support of the awareness is, could be sound, could be your own breath, or what I call mental recitation. You can come up a word.

Any word is okay. Traditionally, we use mantra. So mantra is okay. Anything, sometime, what I call, I'm fine. Everything's fine, I'm fine, everything is fine. That is also okay. So come up a word and decide that word silently. Don't use your mouth. So when you do that, what happens? You are connecting with awareness, being awareness through sound, being awareness through your own breath, or the mental recitation.

Let's say sound, being, knowing, be aware, that is the awareness. But you cannot aware awareness itself at the beginning, but with the object. And then, second benefit is, it has become like mental exercise. When you go into the gym, we do all this exercise. At the beginning, we cannot do too much.

We do a little bit, a little bit. And slowly, so that our body becomes fit, it could for immune system in our body become more healthy, more flexible, more pliable, something with a mind. At the beginning, you cannot listen to sound too long. our body become more healthier, more flexible, more pliable, something with our mind. At the beginning, you cannot listen to sound too long. You cannot recite the word too long. But slowly, slowly become longer,

clear, more effortless, and awareness become automatically salient more and more. So these are first steps. So what I call at least, we have to do this about one to two months. And every day at least five minutes, every day is important. Regular. You cannot do too much, that's okay. But every day, little bit, little bit, little bit, little bit is very important.

Like, exercise, you cannot do too much is one time, but you have to exercise every day, little bit, little bit. These are first steps. And second step, what we call, now, le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu te le dhoti, tu Rai-sight, truck comes rai-sight. When we go to the left side, truck comes to the left side. And I was a little, it's a ship, shipmen truck, you know, shipping things. And behind said, you can ship everywhere, anytime, anything. So I thought it was good for meditation, every ricemen. So now I change.

You can meditate everywhere, anytime, with anything. So therefore, you can use your own problem now. So I use my panic. But if panic is your major affliction or major strong emotion, then don't try with the panic first. Try with the small one. So whenever I was young, I tried to work with the panic. It's overwhelming. I cannot even watch. Then suddenly my body becomes my, you know,

heart, speed, air, and I will sweat. And I feel I cannot breathe. And my neck become very tight. Then what I do is my father said, try to find another emotion. So I look anger. I don't angry often. Anger is not so much issue with me. My father said try to find another emotion. So I look anger. I don't angry often. Anger is not so much issue with me. So then I try to remember past anger. And be with anger.

And that is stepping stone. Eventually I can be with my panic. So when I can be with my panic, what we call, when you see the river, you're out of river. When you see the river, you're out of river. When you see the mountain, you're out of mountain. When you see the television now, you're not in the program, you're not in the television. So when you see the river, you're out of river, but you don't have to stop the river.

The less river comes. Normally, what happens? We fall in the river, carry by river. Then if the river becomes waterfall, very dangerous. If you fall in the river, carried by river. Then if the river becomes waterfall, very dangerous. If you fall in the river, then river becomes waterfall, big problem. But if you see the river, that means you are out of river, then it doesn't matter. If river becomes waterfall, better. Many people spend a lot of money to see the waterfall, right?

Inner waterfall. But at the waterfall, right? Inner waterfall. But of course, at the beginning, not so easy, of course. So that is benefit of awareness. But if you don't, many people, when you look at the panicked, sometimes, you cannot find it. You cannot find thought. You cannot find panic.

Wonderful if you cannot find it. That is what we call non-conceptual moment. If you can find panic, wonderful, you are out of panic. So sometimes I make jokes. There are two liberations here. Horizontal liberation and vertical liberation. Horizontal meaning gap. When you look at the panic, panic disappears.

You cannot find it. There's a gap, gap between past and future. And the vertical liberation is, you can see panic, like seeing the river. When you see the river, you're out of river. So when you see the panic, awareness becomes more than panic. So, liberation comes from and back. That's what I call vertical. You don't have to go out of panic, but because of awareness comes automatically. You come out of panic automatically,

though there is panic. So you have now a sky, and you have cloud both. So now second thing is what we call as wisdom comes. What is wisdom? If you can be with the panic, then what we call, you will see two-phase panic. The real two-color, isn't it?

Is there any phrase in the verse? True colors. Two colors of panic. Two colors of panic, meaning panic become pieces now. What is panic? Sensation, actually. A lot of sensation around your stomach

and chest and neck and head, and there's image, frightened image. And there are unpleasant voices, и чест, и нег, и хед, и это имя, фрайдин имяд, и они, анплезин, voices, и behind the background believe, this the way, this the should,

this the right, this the wrong, this the danger, there's some kind of like belief. And if you take out one piece, you cannot have panic, or panic becomes less. So what I call panic becomes like shaving foam.

Looks like piece of rock, shaving foam, you know, when you shave the beers. I have beers. But I don't use shaving foam anyway. So the shaving foam looks like piece of rock, but inside full of bubbles. So, panic becomes like that. Then sometime, eventually panic loses meaning. You cannot really find, define the panic. Wonderful.

So, that is what we call wisdom. Panic become pieces and they are changing and changing. And these four interconnected, interdependent. And number three, there is a self-kind, self-forgiveness. When you allow panic, when you allow depression, loss of steam, or when you allow to have those stress, that is real kind to yourself. You are not finding it. And that is self love, self compassion.

So normally, there is a coffee called 3 in 1, right? Coffee. 3 in 1 coffee. 3 in 1 coffee. So, 3 in 1. So these all these because of panic, panic is helping you to discover awareness, love and compassion and wisdom. So eventually panic becomes your teacher, when I become your friend, so this is the second step.

In the end, what we call awareness, be with itself, open awareness meditation or sometimes objectless meditation. So sky, be with itself. You don't need to rely on any support, any object. So this is the third step. So, the third step is an open awareness. Yes. Sometime what we call objectless meditation, objectless awareness.

Let me quickly recapitulate. So, the first step is awareness of sound. Yeah, sound, or it depends on the people. Some people sound more connected. Some people your own breath is more connected. Some people the mental reservations are more connected. This tree is the first step. So three options for the first step, which I guess the overarching term we could use would be a simple meditation practice, which could include sound, breath, or a mantra. The second step is to make that simple meditation practice free

range everywhere you go all the time and whatever is happening in your mind. The third step what you're moving to now is open awareness. What does that mean? That is a very difficult to describe. Basically, for example, if you are working a lot, work, work, job, if you are doing physical exercise, you are joking in the pub for half hours and finish your joking, right? Then you rest somewhere in the bench with the deep breathing. B, breathing, and you don't have to do anything, just be, just drop. So that is the example of how to practice open awareness. B with your mind as it is. So you don't need to meditate sometime, what we call non-meditation, it's the best meditation.

You just be with your own mind and there is clarity, that is awareness. Meaning you are not unconscious. You can see, you can hear everything's there. There's sense of being, sense of present, but there's not any focus. Thought comes, go, don't care. Emotion comes and goes, but you're not lost. You're not become zombie. You're not doing anything

just being completely natural. If people hear this and say, I don't quite understand it, would it be safe to respond by saying steps one and two will make step three possible for you eventually? That's true. That's why we have to have steps. And so if I were to attempt, clumsily perhaps, to restate step three to you, it's something along the lines of a non-meditation meditation. Yes. To learn non-meditation, first you have to learn meditation, right? So then eventually you let go of meditation.

But you're not lost. The sense of being, sense of pressing, something what we call awareness, you can experience it, but you cannot put inward. Some of that experience of awareness will come up in steps one and two. Of course, it will come. And this awareness with us all the time, especially when we are young,

something what we call childmind. When you rest your mind, be as it is, clear, present, but problem when we were young is maybe we are not recognized. So the issue is whether you recognize or not, that is the issue. There's no issue that whether you have or not with you all the time, even you are experiencing panic, you have this awareness. If somebody's listening to this and thinking, I still don't get what awareness is or how do I know if I'm with awareness, would it be correct to say for any nanosecond where you are instead of being completely owned by the

stories and sensations of your anxiety, nervousness, panic at the extreme end. Instead of just being completely owned by it and stuck in the story or the feeling, you have a just an nanosecond of just noticing, oh, what exactly am I feeling and where in my body? That is awareness. That is one of the first steps. That is awareness, yes. Awareness doesn't need to be fancier as a Terricate. It's something that is just available to you right now.

Right now. And you have it. You have all the time, almost what I call 24 hours. Even your sleep, you have awareness. But issue is, we have to recognize. Sometimes I give example. Like, if you have watched, the best watch in the world, you are wearing it. So, normally what is the quality of the watch? If I ask you, what is the main quality of the watch? Till it's time, right? So, you have the best watch in the world, and you don't know that it's watch.

You thought it's kind of like brislet, right? And then what happened? You lost time. And if you lost time, what happened? You may have lost your job, right? What do you call it? Time is money. Yes. Dan apa yang berlaku? Kamu berlaku masa. Dan kalau kamu berlaku masa, apa yang berlaku kamu berlaku? Apa yang berlaku? Kamu berlaku masa? Ya. Ya.

Dan kemudian kamu akan menangkirkan kamu kerana kamu bukan masa. Dan kamu berlaku orang lain. Apa masa itu berlaku? Kemudian kamu mungkin menjadi kebunyai. Dan satu hari kamu membuat kamu yang best friend. Oh, hi! Terima kasih. Sama-sama. Apa masa itu kamu berlaku? Apa masa itu? Dan satu hari, kamu membuat kamu yang best friend. Oh, hello!

Terima kasih. Sama-sama, apa masa? Kamu meminta kamu, apa masa? Kamu meminta kamu yang best friend. Kamu ada apa-apa yang kamu beritahu saya? Kamu fikir, jangan beritahu saya. Saya tak ada apa-apa yang saya mempunyai. Kamu meminta kamu,

tidak, tidak, tidak. Ini kamu melihat. Mereka mempunyai kamu. Dan di begini kamu tidak bisa mempunyai itu. Kamu tidak melihat itu. Introduce your own watch. Of course, at the beginning, you cannot believe that. This is not watch. This is a bracelet. And your friends say, «No, no, no, this watch. And your friend teaches you how to look at your own watch. As lowly, slowly, you recognize your own watch.

And you can read time. Now watch, you can tell your time. And you look for job. You can job. And your own time. And your look for a job, you get a job, and your own time, and your thoughts are very happy and promotion. And you have a very wonderful home. So if I ask you, there's a true situation with one watch, right? First, you have watch, but you're not recognized, you become homeless. And later, you wonderful life. Which watch is better? The second watch for sure. I don't think that was a trick question.

Using the watch is better than not using it. Yes. The only difference is you recognise or not recognise. You have watch at first place, but you are not recognised. Your on watch, then watch cannot tell your time. Although you have the best watch in the world. But later you recognize it and watch can tell your time. So this is like awareness. We have this awareness, wonderful awareness, like best watch in the world.

All the time, that is who you are, your fundamental quality. Awareness, one with love and compassion and wisdom. But we need to discover it. We need to recognize whether you have or not, that's not the issue. Right. So we definitely have it whether you're using it is the issue. Yes. And again, I just want to be really clear for folks because terms like awareness and consciousness and luminosity can sound like something that's only available to monks. But it's actually just, you're in an elevator, you're feeling claustrophobic,

and instead of being stuck in the story about all the horrible things that are gonna happen to you, you zero in on the feeling of encasement in your chest. And especially if you're a beginner, you're not gonna be able to be in luminous awareness that pervades your whole being for, you know, a half hour at a time. But for a few seconds at a time,, you know, a half hour at a time, but for a few seconds at a time, maybe even a few nanoseconds at a time, when you can

drop out of unbridled fear into the raw data of the physical sensations, that is awareness. That is connecting with awareness. Okay, what's the difference? What's the difference between awareness and connecting with awareness? You have awareness all the time. Why the difference between awareness and connecting with awareness? You have awareness all the time. Yes. Why you're feeling this anxiety because of awareness

without awareness? Right, right, right. You cannot feel awareness. Stone cannot feel pain. Rock cannot feel pain. We feel pain. That is because of awareness. But we don't know how to connect with that.

We are not recognized. So the more many you try to observe that pain, you are connecting with awareness. The conscious or consciously, or what we call purposely, unproperately, you listen to sound, you connect with awareness. And you have to have what we call view meditation awareness. View meaning you have to know what is the awareness, what it does the function, what is the benefit, how to practice, and this is my core being is awareness. You have to have that idea for view, what we call view. And based on that idea, you listen to sound. Then by listening sound automatically become meditation, automatically connect with your core being eventually.

And why this helps with whatever emotion you're dealing with, you know, garden variety, nervousness, anxiety, panic, anger, whatever. One of the ways in which it helps is it just breaks it up. It's not so solid anymore. That's the one reason. Yes, that's one. Another reason is, you're letting B. For me, the biggest problem for my panic is panic or panic.

Fear or panic, aversion or panic. That keeps my panic ongoing when I begin to let go of that. Panic loses power, cannot function so much. And the deeper level I have sense of, oh yeah, now panic is coming, you are welcome. So the sense of excitement when the panic comes. But symptoms still there for a while. For a few months, I have still symptoms.

Everything tight, my neck and title. All the symptoms there, but do you believe it? I don't mind. Sometimes I love on my panic. So, what we call aversion and craving. These two are what we call causes of suffering. So, aversion is, let's say, when we say, don't think about peace.

Don't think about peace. No, peace, what happened? We think about peace. So, that is the job of aversion. Whatever we do in our life, when we call out the monkey mind, crazy monkey mind, the monkey mind, just opposite. When you try to get rid of something, become worse. Or craving meaning, peace, calm, joy, then they will run away. When you look

for peace, peace will say, I'm busy. You have to make appointment first. Sometimes what I call when you drive a car, there's a break and accelerator, right? Without that, you cannot drive a car. So this aversion and craving is what I call the core being of samsara, core support for suffering, problems, what we call tukka. So once we let go of that, what happened? Panning automatically liberates. That's the really helps the panning.

So first, you will see true color of panic. Second, even though you let go of aversion in craving, but the problem, many people think, if I let go of craving and aversion, then how I can function. You know, my life becomes like zombie, and I become so passive, actually not. Letting go is not giving up.

There is wisdom comes. There is love and compassion comes. There is awareness comes. And these are much better than craving and aversion. They can help your life. They can help others. They can do a lot of function.

They are very smart, powerful, meaningful. Can I add on top of that? People do worry that meditation is going to defang their edge. If you get rid of aversion or craving, you won't be able to function. What I often say to them is you're not going to get rid of it forever. You're a human being and so you're just learning how to turn the volume down. And when you do turn the volume down, great things can happen like a sense of calm and a sense of generosity and availability for other people. I believe in Tibetan and you'll correct me if I'm wrong. One of the translations for the word enlightenment is a clearing away and a

bringing forth. So you turn down the noise on your inner junk, the pizza. Yeah. And even you don't need to turn down in the end. You just connect it with your background, luminosity. Right, so turning down is too much doing. Yeah, you do have to do anything actually. Yes, that's a good...

You just discover your fundamental quality. Stop doing and it happens anyway. Yes. Stop doing a good question. You just discover your fundamental quality. Stop doing it, it happens anyway. Yes, stop doing it, just being. And when you know how to be, it will reveal, it will discover. So sometimes I give this example like, you know, I have this watch, right? So the craving and the aversion is like my hand. Now I have my hand going to hold this watch. My hand is facing down, right?

Now it's facing down and I'm going to grab this watch. So this watch is your life, maybe your job, maybe your work, your fame, whatever. You have to grab it, right? How you have to grab aversion and then craving? Otherwise, if you let go of this, you lost the watch. The watch fell down, right? If I don't grab, what happened? Watch fell down now. So, that's our normal way.

And can I show you something magic? Please. The magic is when I let go of my hand, but I will not lose the watch. So I will do that, okay? So first, I will cover my hand by my rope. You can see and I will show you. He's putting his hand under the robe. Now the real magic comes. One, two, three. Okay, so I need to describe what's happening with your hand. So he was kind of clawing his watch, which he had taken off his wrist and holding his

palm down dramatically clawing onto the watch, which was a metaphor for our clinging. And the correct way to actually think about it is to flip your hand over, palm facing skyward, the watch resting on your palm with no grasp required. Yeah. So that is the, you're connecting with awareness, wisdom, love and compassion. You let go, but even not loss. But of course, the normal way when you pump, pacing down, if you load, go, or aversion and craving, then you cannot function.

Yeah, that's true. Coming up, Rinpoche talks about deconstructing your reality to make it workable, when to take a step back or even stop meditating altogether. And what Rimposhet says is the true purpose of the practice after this. I notice in meditation that I'll have moments where I stopped trying so hard and the awareness is there, it's effortless, maybe on retreat, wherever I'm reminded myself over the course of days, there's nothing to do, nowhere to go, everything's right here anyway. But then some striving part of me comes marching in and is like, you know, hold on to this,

et cetera, et cetera. And that can even happen in my daily meditation practice. Is what I'm describing completely normal? Of course, this is a normal, whenever I was young, you know, I have a lot of those problems. And special, my problem is lazy. I learn meditation when I was nine. And then what I call, I love the idea of meditation.

But I don't like the practice of meditation. So then I lost. And then I cannot meditate for a few weeks, then suddenly, oh, I have to meditate. My panic is coming. And then I'm meditating, trying to get rid of my panic. Hey, panic, you get out. I'm meditating. What happened? panic became worse. And then I asked my father, my father said, she māimi again and again, don't try to fight with the panic.

You have to say welcome. And then I'm trying to say welcome. Hello, Panic, welcome. It helps. But actually, why I'm saying welcome is I want to get rid of panic. Right. Hello, Panic.

I'm saying welcome. Are you still there? Why you're not gone? I already tell you, I already welcome your food times. Become like dog chasing tail, you know? But even though it is a fake welcome, it helps. For me, it really helps. The fake welcome. Right, one of the therapeutic cliches is fake welcome, it helps. For me, it really helps the fake welcome.

Right, one of the therapeutic cliches is fake it until you make it. And in this case, it seems like it worked. Yes, then I ask my father, so I have this fake welcome. I'm become like some loop again. I'm fighting with my panic. I'm fighting with these terrible feelings.

What should I do? And he said, okay, now don't look at the panic, look at that feeling of fighting, look at that feeling of aversion, panic or panic, don't watch panic, look at the behind the panic, and you can include everything, all this junk thing, use them as support for awareness, and they are become support for your meditation, they have become support for awareness, compassion, and wisdom. So sometimes what I call inner recycle, you know.

Say that again. So the inner recycling is being aware of, at some point, you don't even have to be aware of the first arrival, which would be panic. You can be aware of the add-on, which is, I don't want this panic to be here, even though I'm pretending that I'm... Yes, you can be with that one. You can watch that one. I don't mind panic. I don't want this panic to be here, even though I'm pretending that I'm doing it. Yes, you can be with that one. You can watch that one. I don't want panic. I don't want panic.

Ah, hello, I don't want panic. You can watch that one. Maybe I'll give you one example. So normally, I don't want panic. I don't want panic somewhere here, behind your eyes, let's say. And you're walking with panic in front of you. Ah, this is like boiled hot water. I'm going to be with that.

It's very difficult. But you forget, the behind the eyes, there's another one, which is panic or panic, fear or panic. So, then if this panic or panic makes you problem, then don't look at the panic in front of you. Turn the other side. Ah, there's noise here. Look at that one. And that noise becomes support for meditation again, just like so. So eventually, you can include everything as a support for awareness.

And this, I think, is where we get... Second step, being aware of anything at any time, anywhere. Yes. What I was going to say, which is maybe inappropriate, but please tell me if I'm wrong, is that it feels like we're stepping toward understanding a little bit here, the word used earlier, which can be a little

misdivine to people, which is wisdom. And please, I'm taking a leap here. But by wisdom, I think what you mean is seeing that everything is pieces, and you can deconstruct your reality, and then it becomes workable. Yes, that's the wisdom. So wisdom, we will see three aspects. First, we find pieces. When you look at the panic, you cannot pinpoint panic at the beginning.

I'm going to look at panic where? You have to watch the sensation, you have to come down. Oh yeah, there's an image there, somewhere up there, or I don't know. There's a nasty voice. And there's a behind, there's a mindset, some kind of like, you already make your own pre-concept there. So, concept here, sensation down here, word over there. Normally, this all become one giant solid rock, but now pieces.

And you can move in between the pieces, become one giant solid rock, but now pieces. And you can move in between the pieces, and in between there's a lot of space actually. And these pieces are changing, changing, changing, changing, sensation, changing, words, changing. So that's what we call impermanence. So second, you will see the impermanence. Third, what we call independent. If there's no sensation, then you cannot have strong panic. If there's no image, actually, some kind of like something there. Because some people has more sensation, some people have more vision, some people have more word,

some people have more belief, but these four together. So when you take these apart, panic loses a meaning. And this is why you can be happy you have anxiety because one, any suffering can be a motivation for practice. And once you practice, you see, you basically get the keys to the universe. You see that the solid movie of life, the seemingly solid movie of life, isn't actually that solid. It's impermanent and interdependent, and that is where you get some freedom. Yes.

Correct. And that we don't have to make it. That is the true color of the reality, actually. Normally what we are making is we are making single, solid, permanent, very, very unpleasant thing. We are making our own enemy actually. We are putting ourself into our own gel. And this gel who made it, we made it.

So if you made your own gel, why not, you can free. And actually, it does not really exist. When we really face it, be with the reality as it is, then you will have discovery. The truth will reveal. I'm just having this thought that I've practiced meditation for, I don't know, 12, 13 years. I just have to hear this over and over and over again

because it cuts against the grain of many aspects of human nature and modern life. And you just need to be reminded of this over and over and over again. Yes, yes. And each time when we remember, aha, something is learning, something discovery. Although some word, for me, I've been practicing more than 30 years and every year, aha. Yeah, I'm using this some word before.

I'm teaching that, I'm listening, now it's different when I hear. It just gets deeper. Yeah, and deeper and more ordinary. Right. Well, and I think in some ways those are the ultimately the same thing. Same thing. Yes. Before I set you free from this interview, I know there was something else you wanted

to say about the second of the three steps for dealing with anxiety. Where did you want to go deeper on that? So the second step is sometimes quite tricky because now you are really directly working with the panic itself or depression or stress, loss of steam, whatever, they're in you. So this is quite tricky at the beginning. So normally what we call there are four steps here.

First is to be aware. Second is try something different. Third is step back. And the fourth is take a break. So you have to have this four. Because when you begin to be aware of panic, at the beginning what happens, become worse. Actually not become worse, but feels like it's become worse.

Why? What we call, when you look at the muddy river, you cannot see fish. When the river becomes more clear, you will see fish. And you think, wow, so many fish are here, where they come from. Actually, fish are there, but the river is muddy, you cannot see it. So normally, when our mind becomes begin to clear, come, and we will discover more thought. For example, if you are busy all day, you will not see thought.

And after 5pm, you go your home, relax on your bed with the long breath. What happened? Pala, pala, pala, yada yada yada. You will see a lot of image and then a lot of voice. Actually, at that time, your mind is resting. Your mind is becoming more calm. So same thing with meditation.

At the beginning, what do we call waterfall experience? It looks like it becomes worse at the beginning. So therefore, sometimes when we begin to watch panic, at the beginning, we cannot watch. Over there. So we need a second step, what we call, try something different, which is a small emotion. I cannot watch my panic at the beginning, so I watch my anger.

It could be anything, or it could be a listen to sound, or go back to the first step, breath, or mental recitation. So this is a try something different. And sometime even that doesn't work. Then step back, step back meaning, don't look at the panic. Look at the behind the panic, the aversion of panic, dislike the panic, be with those, step back. And sometimes that doesn't work because we are too tired to exhausted.

Take a break, there's my favorite practice, take a break. You can drink coffee, you can do physical exercise or sleep, don't practice meditation for a while. Stop meditation is quite good sometimes also. Take a break, it's part of the practice. Sometimes what we call it when you hike the mountain, you rest, right? Resting there, it doesn't mean you return back. So some people feel guilty that stop practicing meditation. No problem. You can stop for a while, it's okay.

Yeah, these are stuff for steps. Four steps within step number two, which is anytime anywhere you can meditate. And I think the one that people will key in on there is give yourself a break sometimes. And I think it's useful for you to say it because a lot of people in the West in particular who are type A achievement oriented folks when you say you can meditate anytime anywhere on any object. Well, then they think, well, I need to be on my game 24, 7. But actually sometimes it's good to watch Netflix for a few minutes. Anything else I should have asked you? I think probably like that. Or maybe basic in it, goodness. Basic in a goodness. Yeah, that seems like a big topic, but please. So all this meditation practice, the purpose is what we call to discover your ined goodness, basic ined goodness.

So the beautiful quality of our own mind, the awareness, love and compassion, wisdom, three in one. And this is the background of thought, emotion, perception. Sometimes what I call like, the projector has light, right? Movie projector. And that light, projecting on the screen, there are so many stories there. Sometimes beautiful stories, sometimes dangerous, sometimes nice, sometimes not nice. But all this story, all these different colors,

because of the light. Without light, you cannot have all these stories. So the light is the awareness. Light is the basic goodness. Through that light, all this manifestation, what we call panic, depression or compassion, wisdom, all these other display of the light, manifestation of the light. So, normally what we see is only story, we don't see light. So, the purpose of this practice is to see the light, light like awareness, and to discover it, this within yourself, and then help others

as much as you can. Point out to your friends that they're wearing watches. help others as much as you can. Point out to your friends that they're wearing watches. Yes. No matter what we've done in our lives, no matter how many mistakes we've made, our birthright is, it's right there. Yeah, there's no mistake on the awareness, of course. But the mistake is if we follow with we lost and thought emotion perception, then problem. So wake up everybody. We appreciate thank you very much for doing this. Just one last thing, if people want to learn more from you, how can they do that? We have meditation, organization called Berkard,

T-E-R-G-A-R. Yeah, we have online classes, and we have this systematic practice. I make it kind of a curriculum. For me, it's really benefit to practice step by step. And we have this systematic practice. I make it kind of a curriculum. For me, it's really benefit to practice step-by-step. Otherwise, I got some good idea and then good idea dissolves and the loss into my normal life.

So this step-by-step is really wonderful. We'll put a link to Tehrgar in the show notes. You've also written a few books. Can you just name those? The first book is Joy of Living. And the last book is the In Love with the World. In Love with the World, yes. And Shay's been on the show a couple of times,

so we'll put links to his prior episodes where he discusses those books in the show notes. So if you want to check those out, go for it. Thank you again. Thank you very much. Thanks again to Yang-Gay Mingyue Rinpoche. Thank you as well to everybody who worked so incredibly hard on this show. Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir, Justin Davy, Lauren Smith, Maria Wertel, Samuel Johns, and Jen Poient.

We also get our audio engineering from the good folks over at Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode that I've been calling in my own mind, the opposite of depression. Maybe we'll make that the title of the episode. We're gonna talk to Dr. Samantha Bordman, who is a self-described, positive psychiatrist. It's fascinating episode, so that's coming up on Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3 Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey. by completing a short survey at Wondery.com-survey.