Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 505: The 5 Things That Are Ruining Your Meditation (and Your Life) – And How to Handle Them | Bonnie Duran

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

The Buddha was an inveterate list-maker who gave us easy to remember checklists to help us do life better. One of the handiest lists the Buddha made was called the five hindrances, which is a part of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. This list outlines the five things that mess us up when we’re trying to meditate — or, in fact, when we’re trying to do anything. If you’ve got issues right now, odds are pretty high that you are in the throes of one of the hindrances. The excellent news is that the Buddha not only made a taxonomy of the hindrances but also a long list of antidotes. We’re going to run through all of this today with Bonnie Duran, a great dharma teacher who is making her second appearance on the show.Duran is a teacher and member of the Teachers Council at Spirit Rock Meditation Center and Director of the Center for Indigenous Health Research at the University of Washington’s Indigenous Wellness Research Institute. She combines extensive research and practice of Buddhism with her deep understanding of indigenous spiritual practices.This episode is the fourth installment of a series we've launched on the four foundations of mindfulness.In this episode we talk about:How the five hindrances manifest in our daily livesUsing the RAIN technique to investigate the 5 hindrancesWhether there is any type of desire that is helpfulCultivating a sky-like attitudeHow to not water the seeds of negativity The similarities between Indigenous beliefs and what the Buddha taughtHow body scans can be an antidote to sleepinessAnd whether you can ever uproot the hindrances entirelyFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/bonnie-duran-505See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, everybody. We have talked approximately a million times on this show about how the Buddha was an inveterate list maker, homie loved to name and categorize aspects of the human experience, ingredients of our suffering, and the various factors at play when we wake up and get over ourselves. All of this list making was not undiagnosed to OCD, at least I don't think it was, but

I don't know what do I really know. The Buddha lived 2600 years ago before they even wrote stuff down, but in any event, I'm pretty sure these listicles were not compulsive behavior or an early form of clickbait. It was instead what the Buddhists like to call skillful means. The Buddha was giving us easy to remember checklists to help us do life better. One of the handiest lists the Buddha ever made was called the five hindrances. These are the five things that mess us up

when we're trying to meditate or in fact, when we're trying to do anything. If you've got an issue right now, odds are pretty high that you are in the throes of one of these hindrances. The excellent news here is that the Buddha not only created this taxonomy of obstacles, but he also created a long list of antidotes.

So we're gonna run through all of this today, the individual hindrances and some of the antidotes with a great Dharma teacher who's making her a second appearance right here on this show. Bonnie Durand is a teacher and member of the Teachers Council at Spirit Rock Meditation Center and director of the Center for Indigenous Health Research at the University of Washington's Indigenous Wellness Research Institute.

One of the reasons I really enjoy talking to her, aside from the fact that she's very funny, is that she combines extensive practice and knowledge of Buddhism with her deep understanding of Indigenous spiritual practices, which are totally fascinating to me. In this conversation, we talk about how the five hindrances manifest in our daily lives, using the rain technique to investigate the five hindrances. We've talked about rain many times on this show, but if it's new to you, Bonnie, we'll define it. We'll also talk about whether there is any type of desire that is actually helpful, cultivating a sky-like attitude in your mind,

how to not water the seeds of negativity, the similarities between indigenous beliefs and what the Buddha taught, how body scans, that's a meditation technique for the uninitiated, can be an antidote to sleepiness, a huge problem for many of us on and off the cushion, and we talk about whether you can ever uproot the hindrances entirely. Before we dive in, a little bit of context here as stated, we're talking about the five

hindrances today. But, and stay with me here, this episode is actually the latest installment in a series we've been doing on another classic Buddhist list, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. The Four Foundations of Mindfulness is a seminal discourse of the Buddha where he lays out On another classic Buddhist list, the four foundations of mindfulness. The four foundations of mindfulness is a seminal discourse of the Buddha where he lays out the four ways to establish mindfulness or four ways to wake up to what's happening right now and stop sleep walking through your life.

Okay, so here's where things get a little head spinny. Perhaps the five hindrances are actually part of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. What? Huh? Turns out the fourth foundation of mindfulness is actually a kind of a list within a list. I could say a lot more about this, but I fear I'm going to mess it up and make everything more confusing. Just know that right now we're going to talk about the five hindrances and that in an interesting way they fit into the overarching list of the four foundations.

That's all you need to know. Trust me, you're going to get a lot out of this. And we will get started with Bonnie Durand right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist

Kelli McGonical and the great meditation teacher, Alexis Santos, to access the course, just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10percent.com. All one word spelled out. Okay, on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur.

On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts. On my new podcast, Baby This is Skinky Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from, MySpace? Listen to, Baby, This is Skinky Palmer on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast.

Bonnie Durand, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Dan Harris. I'm glad to be back. So we're going to talk today about five hindrances and that's basically a checklist of five ways we can go astray in our meditation and our life. But let me just, before we get into this list, because the list is extremely useful, let's just step back and talk about what exactly is the fourth foundation of mindfulness. Because speaking for myself, I've always found it very confusing. I get

the first three. The first one is, you know, just being mindful of your body, which is a great way to wake up to what's happening right now. The second is to be aware of the, the sort of pleasant or unpleasant or neutral tone of whatever is arising right now. Do I like what's happening right now? Do I not like it? Do I not care? And then the third is just kind of being mindful of whatever mental states are operational in the moment. But the fourth is often described as mindfulness of dhammas.

And then within the fourth, and I'm going to mangle this, so you'll come in and rescue me. But within the fourth foundation of mindfulness, there are all these lists. So it's like a list of lists within a list. So please save me. What is the fourth foundation of mindfulness? Well, you're right. I think historically in our beloved Western tradition, we've had a number of different categories of thinking or categories or lists of very common, mental and emotional and physical things that happen to all humans. And right now, one of our scholars of Interminolio says that he can verify that what the

person who invented this practice taught was that there were two things that were very important. And those two things are the five hindrances, which are the things that prevent us from being present and from seeing clearly. And the seven factors of awakening, which are very high, mental and emotional states that we cultivate as we do this practice over time. And those are wonderful. And there's a lot of other things on the list that we're not exactly sure. We're taught by the guy who invented this, but we know for sure that the five hindrances

and the seven factors of awakening were on that list. And by the guy who invented this year referring to the Buddha, I assume. Yeah, the Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha. Yeah, he lived 2600 years ago. And I'm so excited, you know, about a year ago, this article came out in this excellent scientific journal. It was Nature, which is one of the highest regarded scientific journals.

They have a few subcategories, and they had one called Nature Human Behavior. And they did a meta-anal analysis, which means they put together over 400 studies of what, you know, mental health intervention was the most helpful and most useful for people. They put together 400 studies of over 50,000 people and guess what came out as number one. Mindfulness came out as the number one highest impactful, most successful, mental health intervention to do for your own well-being. And I just love this.

This was invented 2600 years ago, so I love that. Me too. Before we dive into the 500s, can you give me a working definition of Dama's because, or Dama's depending on which ancient language you want to use. When we say mindfulness of Dhammas or mindfulness of Dhammas, what does that actually mean? Okay, so the poly word Dhamma can be translated into several English words, like truth, teaching, path, phenomena, law, etc.

In the case of this meditation practice, there are several important details that stand out for this foundation of mindfulness. Some of those dhammas in the fourth foundation include, of course, the five hindrances, which are an important practice, the seven factors of awakening, and then also the five aggregates, the passing and a rising of the five aggregates, the six sense doors, you know, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling. You know, it's just experiences, you know, in clusters to understand them and clusters that are experienced by every human being. And that's what it's important for us to see

in the fourth foundation of mindfulness to know that whatever we're experiencing is not personal to us. It might be personal to us how strong they are or how we interpret them, but these things, these domas in the fourth foundation are experienced by every single human being that is born into this life world.

The six-cent stores, investigation of the Federer, depending on the origination, some of the biggest teachings of this tradition are found within the Dama's, the fourth foundation. But our wonderful scholar, the Venerable Analyo, says through his investigation that we know for sure that there are two that are found in the Chinese agamas and in the polycanon, and those are the five hindrances which are huge and important thing for us to know and work with, and also the seven factors of awakening, which are beautiful mental states that arise after we have been practicing for a while. So just to sum up, the fourth foundation of mindfulness of dharma, or mindfulness of dhammas,

is essentially being mindful of the Buddha's teaching. And one of the key parts of his teaching is to create these lists, which help us understand what it's like to be alive and how to work with our minds. And there are lots of these lists, but according to the Venerable Analeo, who's a German-born American, currently resides in America, scholar monk, who has looked at the Buddhist scriptures both in the ancient language of Pali, but also in ancient Chinese, and has found that there are definitely two lists that are in this bucket, and they are the five hindrances, and the seven factors of awakening, or the seven factors of enlightenment. And today, in this interview,

we're going to focus on the five hindrances. So let me ask a foundational question as it pertains to the five hindrances, which is, what are what are the 500s? What's the overarching importance of this list? Yes, it's a hugely important list because as we know, in order for us to make progress and to see clearly and to be free from suffering, we have to have Celo or proper conduct. You know, we have to be virtuous. We have to be wholesome. our lives have to be wholesome and virtuous. And the five hinduances are ways that all human beings and each of us individually get

hung up with some of the unwholesome mental qualities that are arise in all of our minds. And those on wholesome mental qualities, there's five of them. There are two of them that are opposites of each other. The first is greed or wanting. And the second opposite of that is aversion or not wanting. That's one pair. The other pair is sloth and torpor or sleepiness or lack of ability to connect or concentrate. And the opposite of that is restlessness and worry. So those are, you know, another pair that are the hindrances.

And then the fifth hindrance is doubt. And some people say that doubt is the most scary hindrance because it can make us even question why we're doing what we're doing. And it could be the reason why we stop practicing, you know, cultivating positive mental factors and trying to weaken and eliminate the negative mental factors. And that's where our well-being comes from. We can't rely on our well-being coming from external places.

I think right now we all know that probably better than a lot of different times. Our well-being has to come from us internally. It doesn't mean that we don't work to create a better life for ourselves and others, but our well-being really has to come from within ourselves. And this is exactly how it comes by cultivating really wholesome mental states and by eliminating and weakening those unwholesome mental states. And the fourth foundation represents that. The five hindrances are unwholesome mental states

that impact our meditation and absolutely impact our everyday walk of life as well. And then the seven factors of awakening are beautiful mental states that bring well-being and happiness to us and to others. And you know, we're cultivating them and trying to make them stronger. And the hindrances we are seeing when they arise and trying to weaken their force in our lives. Let me just provoke you. I'm going to play skeptic here. I'm not skeptical.

But if somebody listening to this is in a skeptical frame of mind. They might be thinking, okay, all right, you're gonna walk me through this list, this dry, ancient, dusty list from some guy 2600 years ago. Why do I care about this list of the five hindrances? Because what's happening in this hard-and-mind emotions and thought processes, you know, this determines our level of happiness and our level of well-being. When we have very strong 500s, when we actually believe the delusion that, you know, owning this or having that will make us happy, or if we believe the delusion that, you know,

hurting this person or just having a version for something is going to make us happy, or if we don't realize our sleepiness or turpore, which means, you know, we're not seeing clearly what's happening in this moment, or when we're agitated or anxious or can't stop thinking or can't stop wondering. And if we're doubtful, you know, those are the source of our unhappiness. And weakening them and knowing when they arise, making them the object of our meditation can bring a lot of well-being and happiness to us. That's where our well-being arises from. It arises from strengthening the very positive and beautiful ones and weakening and eliminating the unwholesome ones, the ones that cause us and others suffering.

So if we are unaware of these five hindrances, these unwholesome, unhelpful, often quite noxious states of mind, then they're going to own us. So what's your choice? You want to be aware of these things and learn about them? Or do you want to just be governed by them? Excellent. Excellent. Very well said. Uh-oh as we say in Indian country What does ah-oh mean technically? Well, you know, I'm an indigenous person and I have worked for my entire academic career just among indigenous American Indian

people and we have this way of just acknowledging when someone speaks the truth, when we hear something that's the truth and it's well said like you just did Dan Harris. Oh, thank you. You say, oh, you know, oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I like that. So let's start with greed or desire. Yes. Greed or desire is something I know well. I think we all know well. There's a great expression that our mutual friend Joseph Goldstein, like some great meditation

teacher said this to Joseph once, lust cracks the brain. Yes, it does. And you know, desiring things that might make us happy for five minutes or even five days or even five years and not realizing the indemperance of their ability to give us well-being, you know, that's an important thing. And at this point, we can go back to the rain formula. You know, we use the rain formula on all the four foundations of mindfulness, right? And that is to recognize what's happening in the moment, accept it. This is happening to me and just as it's happening to all human beings, not identifying with

it, realizing that it's not who we are, that it's just a mental factor and investigating it physically. How does it feel in the body? Is it pleasant or unpleasant? How does it change? Feeling it emotionally. How does desire feel emotionally for us? How does it feel energetically?

Is it a rushing feeling, a sinking feeling, or a lifting feeling cognitively? What beliefs are stories? What we tell ourselves about this? And greed, desire, oh my gosh, we have so many stories that we tell ourselves about having this particular loved one or having this particular job or this amount of money or this recognition or this title or whatever. And then another aspect of rain is motivationally. What is it or just to do or what is it have us cling to or be averse to? I think rain is an important way to investigate the five hindrances. Just say a little bit about rain because not everybody

listening to this will be familiar with rain. A rain is wonderful. Rain is a way to investigate all of the things that emerge in our heart, mind, and body. Art stands for recognize it. You know, when you're struggling and you don't know what's happening in your meditation or even in your life, you know, you're struggling. What's happening here? We can stop and just put our focus of our intention on the struggle. You know, what is making me struggle here? So we recognize what's happening. Oh, I'm greedy right now. I really want I desire this thing right now. That's what I'm struggling with. So you recognize it. A and rain stands for accepted. We realize, yay, you know, right now I'm very averse. Right now I am not liking my partner sitting across from me at the dinner table or whatever

it is to just accept that and realize that, you know, this is what happens to every single person. And then the eye is an important part of it. That is to investigate it, to be curious about it. What is it like? And we look at it one way to investigate is to look at it physically. How does it feel in the body?

Is it pleasant or unpleasant? And how is it changing over time? We look at it emotionally. What are the emotional feelings that are arising with this hindrance that's arising right now? Energetically, is it a feeling of rushing or sinking or lifting energetically? How does it feel in this heart, mind, body?

And then cognitively, what thoughts is it giving rise to? What beliefs or stories do we associate with this hindrance or whatever it is that's arising in this moment? And then motivationally, what does it want us to do? Is it making us cling to something or is it making us averse to something? And then the highest level of this is non-identification. To realize that this isn't just you, I mean it is you, but this happens to every single human being that's born.

And it might be happening to the four legids and the winged ones and fend ones too. We don't know, but we know for sure that it's happening to all living human beings as well. So that's rain. To recognize something, to accept it. Yes, this is happening to me, to investigate it, physically, emotionally, energetically, cognitively, motivationally, and then non-identification. This isn't just me.

I'm having this because I was born human, and this is what all humans are dealing with. So I'm in great company. So, just a level set here. We're going through the five hindrances, which are, it's a list of the five ways in which we get messed up in meditation and in life. And as we go through this list, and we're right now we're focusing on the first hindrance, which is greed or desire. As we go through this list, we're going to talk about ways to deal with the hindrances.

And you're saying that one great way to deal with greed and lots of other hindrances is a technique called rain, which is recognize, allow, investigate, non-identification, which, again, we've talked about this technique on the show before. It allows you to meet whatever's happening in your mind in a kind of systematic way that defangs it. Yes, systematic and wholesome way. It's a very wholesome way to work with whatever arises in the heart, mind, body is with rain.

Yes, excellent approach. So do you want to talk about desire or greed? I do. I always love talking about desire and greed. Let me just ask you a question about desire and greed. Is there no such thing as healthy or wholesome or helpful desire? Like, I might want to help somebody or I might want to get enlightened, or I might have an ambition to build something great in the world, like I might want to help somebody or I might want to get enlightened or I might have an ambition to build something great in the world or I might want to piece a chocolate cake. I just have a piece of chocolate cake. Is there no wanting that's okay?

No, I think you raised an excellent point, Dan Harris. Yeah, there is. In fact, there's a term for it in Polly. It's called chanda. Chanda is wholesome desire or wanting to make sure everyone has enough to eat or wanting to make sure everyone is housed appropriately or has the best mental health that they can or wanting, you know, and let's make sure that we put ourselves, you know, at the center of that, wanting to make sure that we're healthy and have what we need to be happy and to bring that happiness to our family and to our friends and to our community.

Absolutely. That's Chonda. That's very wholesome desire. Coming up, Bonnie Durran on the overarching principles for working with the hindrances in meditation and in our daily life. Careless versus careful attention and meeting the hindrances with some humor. After this. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares of our freshly honest and insightful take on parenting.

Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert-experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone.

So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. podcasts, you can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So for each of the hindrances, classically, in the Buddhist texts and the Buddhist tradition, there are antidotes. So for desire, what are the antidotes? Well, actually, can I go through what the general principles for working with the hindrance is are for all of them?

So the first thing we want to do is recognize and acknowledge what's happening in the moment. And whenever we're struggling in our meditation or whenever we're struggling in our daily life, these are things that happen in our daily life, even more than they happen in our 20 minutes of meditation in the morning or whatever. So these are important principles for working with hindrances and meditation and in life.

The first thing is to recognize and acknowledge it. You know, whenever you're struggling or you realize something is arising that doesn't seem that very wholesome, just recognize and acknowledge, name that hindrance. The second thing is to, I love this one, consider the consequences of actually doing this. What would happen if I continued to dwell in this hindrance? You know, we can be non-judgmental and simply consider where this will go. If I follow this desire to be rich and just spend all of my time working instead of being with my kids and my family. If I spend all my time being greedy for or being averse towards this or that person or

this system, you know, I'm just making that stronger and what would be the outcome of that. So considering the consequences is really good, cultivating the opposite of the hindrances or any unwholesome mental factor, we can bring loving kindness to ill will, bring mindfulness to wandering mind. And then one other antidote for all of the hindrances or struggles we have is to cultivate a sky-like attitude. Imagine that our thoughts are like clouds

passing through an empty blue sky. Look at the gaps between thoughts and rest there for a while. Realize that our thoughts are not who we are. They're just habits of heart, mind, and emotion that we're arising in the moment being triggered by something that we are thinking or something that we're seeing. And then apply effort to realize, I want to stop this mental factor, this unwholesome mental factor of this aversion, this greed, this sloth and torpor, this doubt. I am going to stop it. I have to apply effort here and say, no, I see you doubt.

You can go away for now. Yes. Okay. Well, you said a lot there, but let's just stay and we can get to a lot of it as we go through the list here. But let's just stay with desire for a second. Can you walk us through how specifically to deal with greed, wanting, desire, and meditation and in the rest of our lives?

Well, the mind hunts for central pleasures, right? I mean, the mind and emotions, our emotional life wants pleasant things. I mean, that's one of the most brilliant parts of what the guy who invented this taught, that one of the big things that produced what we do in life is whether something is pleasant, whether something is unpleasant or neutral. That's the second foundation of mindfulness, right? Mindfulness of a vedina or that quality of mind, whether it's pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. So to know when the mind is experiencing something pleasant,

you know, it's like the mind looking at water died with bright enticing and alluring colors. You know, we don't see the reality of what we're desiring. We're just seeing the happiness of it and the pleasant sensations that we will have for five minutes or five months or five weeks when we get that and not realizing that that is absolutely impermanent like everything else. And doesn't necessarily recognize what the outcome of spending so much time and energy, getting that positive feeling, that

pleasant feeling will be. So the antidote is to recognize when we are desiring something that isn't a good or real source of well-being for us and for others, to recognize and acknowledge it for what it is, and resist indulging in it. Again, bringing it back to recognize and acknowledge, consider the consequences. You know, if I take this job that pays so much more, they expect me to work 80 hours a week, what about my family? And I bet you that's something that you've thought about, Dan.

But anyway. Close to home. Yeah. And then cultivate the opposite of that. Cultivate attention to the well-being of ourselves and others. Cultivating a sky-like mind to see clearly this desire that's arising, is this really a wholesome thing where, if I indulge in this, what are the consequences of it? And then apply effort and stop doing it.

You just talked about a bunch of ways we can handle desire and meditation outside of meditation, but I want to get real specific because this is such a hard thing to deal with. I'm at the table. I'm looking at a plate heaping with cookies, and I know, I know if I have two cookies at dinner time, I won't be able to sleep. Any other time of day, I'll eat the cookie. But basically what I'm trying to say is, there are lots of times when we want something that we know will not be good for us.

Well, actually, you just said it yourself, so very well, Dan, your wisdom is arising. You consider the consequences of that. If it's dinner time and at seven o'clock, and you see chocolate, ice cream, or two cookies in front of you and you know that the sugar will keep you up. Just think about what the consequence of doing that is. And as it sounds like you know very well, you've really taken in the consequences of not sleeping well and

you know that is a very bad outcome. So that will give you the incentive and the power to apply positive wholesome effort to stop doing it, to not eat that cookie. So, yeah, that's an excellent example. But I've done that before. I've sat there in front of cookies and said, if you have some of these, you're not going to sleep. And then I do it anyway. So what does that mean? That I'm not giving enough attention to the contemplation of the negative outcome or that the contemplation of the negative outcome may not be a sufficient weapon in the face of freshly baked cookies. I think that you probably aren't taken into recognition the impact of that on your own

lack of ability to sleep. Because if you get up in the morning and you just feel totally unenergized and you feel like, wow, I'm still very tired and you're tired throughout the day, you know, when you're tired throughout the day, you should say, well, part of the reason I feel this way is because I had those cookies last night were those two cookies that I ate that took three minutes, was that worth feeling like this throughout the day? To do a reflection of the impact of that on your life and on your lack of ability to feel rested

and to feel alert in the moment, I think that would be one way to deal with that desire. And the desire could be a lot, desire for a lot more unwholesome things. If you're in a relationship, you know, desire for screwing around with somebody else and realizing the incredible negative impact of that on the people that you love and on yourself, you know, the desire to get involved with drugs or alcohol to soothe some of your negative mental qualities or the unpleasantness of being in this moment right now. You know, maybe that's another thing for you to look at when you're eating those cookies. Are you

feeling very unpleasant in this moment? And you know, what's the cause of that unpleasantness to be aware of why you want to eat the cookies because you want some pleasure because you're either in unwholesome or a negative mental quality or negative aid in that, you know, it doesn't feel good. I'm not feeling good in this moment and what will make me feel better.

And you know, think of more wholesome things that'll make you feel better. Maybe doing yoga for 10 minutes or something. Can I do yoga with a cookie in my mouth? Is that possible? You could, but then you'll have to remember in the morning when you haven't gotten enough sleep to feel that sleepiness and tiredness

and know that it was due to that two minutes of pleasure from that cookie. That chocolate chip downward dog gets me every time. Oh, sorry, sorry. A little while ago, when you were talking about greed and desire and its many manifestations in the human mind and maybe even the animal mind, one thing you referenced was rushing. And there was a great Dharma teacher on the show recently, who said to me that she made a vow for a whole year to notice

when she was hurrying or rushing. And I am now making, I've decided to make that vow on my own, in my own life. And so first thing in the morning, I've just promised myself, I'm going to notice the best of my ability when I'm hurrying or rushing and just kind of not obey that impulse. And so, I throw that to you to see what more wisdom you might have to drop on this connection between rushing and desire or how rushing is a form of desire. Well, I think rushing probably is one of the conditions for all of the hindrances to arise because when we're rushing, we're not paying careful attention to what is happening

in the moment. When we're rushing, we're just maybe acknowledging or experiencing the most for that moment, the most strongest sensation of that hindrance. And for a central desire or greed, it could be careless attention to an attractive object. So careless attention to money, careless attention to the body of another person, careless attention to a piece of chocolate cake, which, you know, doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing given certain conditions.

So Carol is attention, I think, is brought about by rushing. Absolutely doesn't allow us to pay careful attention to things. So I want to just acknowledge, Dan, that's an excellent valve that you take. That's an excellent intention. You want to strengthen the intention of not rushing. Oh, man, that's excellent. I think everyone who listens to your podcast should make that resolution to. That's an excellent one. All right. I got the seal of approval from Bonnie Grant. I like that. All right. So let's move down the list of hindrances. So we've talked about greed and let's move on to a version or ill will or hatred or

anger. Can you give us a working definition of this syndrome? Actually an analogy is boiling water and it is just feeling you know negativity the aversion and lack of benevolence and feeling heated up feeling just aversive to something, just having a feeling of wanting to get rid of it or to hurt it, actually. Ilwill can also be a very concrete idea that I don't like that person, I want to hurt that person. You know, I think that's happening in politics and now a lot these days. There's a way for us to be very connected

to our ideas and our political affiliations without hating anybody. You know, that's another indigenous practice I think that goes along with this is that, and indigenity and indigenous cultures, we all know that we are related to each other, even the people that we hate. We know that they are related to each other, even the people that we hate. We know that they are our relations too.

And there's a term for that is called, oh, me, Takuyasin. And I think that's a very Buddhist idea that, you know, we don't want to hurt the people who have different ideas than us. We actually want to bring them back into knowing a whole sum positive translation of what's happening, you know, I think that is so important. And that's one of the important ideas of the five hindrances is that it's not just us, it's everyone, and we will help ourselves to mitigate this impact

on our lives. And when we do this for ourselves, we're able to do it more for all of our relations, which is everybody on the planet. So how do we do that in our own lives? Because I think we're all on the grip of a version, either with, you know, difficult in-laws or with people we see on TV with whom we disagree. Right. Well, as we know, I'm sure you've talked about this on your brilliant podcast here, is that we want to develop mental factors that are the opposite of it.

So we want to develop loving kindness or meta and compassion for ourselves and for others and joy, you know, being happy for other people when something really wonderful happens to them and equanimity. And we can notice our bodily sensations. We can notice how we're heating up or feeling a verse or wanting to strike out at something. Just noticing those things can help us be aware of these negative mental factors, these hindrances as they arise and to cultivate the opposite of them. So, our meta or benevolence, loving kindness will be stronger than the aversion or ill will or hate that we're feeling in that

moment for that person place or thing. So, to realize our interconnectedness to it from an indigenous way and a Buddhist way, and to cultivate the opposite of that. And to know that if we carry out our inclination to be hateful in the moment or to strike out or to do something negative, we're watering the seeds of that negative mental factor. You know, we're putting fertilizer on it. We're making it stronger, and that will arise in many more places in our lives if we don't keep that in check,

if we don't realize what's happening there with that, and if we don't try to cultivate the opposite of it. Hey, let me ask you a question. This may seem like a bit of a digression, but in my mind, it's not, because we've been talking about American Indian culture. And I feel like I've been exposing myself for whatever reason to quite a bit of it recently. One is I'm talking to you. Two is I've been watching the amazing show on FX reservation dogs,

which is about these kids on a Native American reservation. I don't want to describe it too much because I won't do it just, but it is amazing. And the third thing is you and I were discussing this before we started rolling. I've been reading this book by unbelievably skilled novelist, Louise Erdrich. I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name correctly, but she wrote Pulitzer Prize winning novel called The Night Watchmen, which I'm in the middle of right now. But as it happens, I'm in by being quite a bit of American Indian culture right now. One of the things I'm in the middle of right now. But as it happens, I'm in by being quite a bit of American Indian culture right now. One of the things I'm seeing in all three of these sources,

you, reservation dogs, and the Night Watchmen, is a real dry humor. And I'm wondering if I'm reading too much into this, and whether this dry humor might be connected to the kind of understanding this lack of a version that you are calling for right now in the world. Oh, that's an excellent point. Yes. I think that would be one antidote also to when a version arises us or any of the hinduances if desire, a version ill will

sloth and torporousness or doubt. Yeah, we can actually meet it with a little bit of humor, a little bit of realizing, wow, you know, this isn't just me, this is everybody. And yeah, I have a comic approach to it. In fact, can you see that? So for the listeners who won't be able to see what Bonnie has just showed me, but she's screen sharing cartoon from where I don't know, but it has two Native American men talking to each other. The first guy is reading the newspaper. One says, whoa, listen to this.

Nature is complex, interwoven, connected. And then the other says, no way. Well, will they discover next? You know one way to think about it and around you know the Buddhist principles and practices too That are 2600 years old. There's a lot of similarities between many indigenous cultural foundational beliefs and what the Buddha taught So I think that there's a lot of connection there And in fact at the end of this, I'm teaching an indigenous retreat at Vice-Citos Mountain Refuge in Northern New Mexico.

And I'm so happy to say that some of the leaders of the American Indian health care and economic and political communities are actually coming to that retreat. I'm so happy to say that, yeah. That's great. that's great. But you know, it's funny in that cartoon, you just show me, there are two things going on.

One, yes, it's a confirmation that these indigenous traditions, both American Indian and Buddhism, saw things 2600 years ago that science is now waving around as a sensibly new discovery. There's that, and then there's also the sarcasm. Yo, what will they discover next? This kind of gentle, good-natured sarcasm that I see in a lot of the characters in the night watchman,

the novel, I see it in reservation dogs, and I see it in talking to you. And so I just go back to that as something that seems like a healthy way to deal with life. Right, yeah, well, that's an excellent observation. Yeah. A little bit of humor, a little bit of pleasant or not harmful sarcasm a little, you know. And to realize that that is foundationally supported by the idea that all of us will have ill will and desire at some point. And so that actually gives us a way to accept ourselves with compassion and

humor and love as well. You know, we can accept ourselves when that arises. Oh, I see you, ill will. I see you desire and not beat ourselves up about it by saying, hey, me and 500 million other people are feeling this right now. You know, other relatives on the planet are feeling this exact same thing right now. Let's not take it too personally. Yes, or too seriously. I mean, I sometimes think about,

I've been just to myself kind of using this term of high-fiving my demons. You know, I see, it used to be that I would see anger arise in my mind and I would then ostensibly be seeing it with some sort of mindfulness, but then I would jump right to this whole story about how I'm an irretrievably angry person. I'm always going to be an angry person. I'm always an asshole blah blah blah, but now I'm like, oh no, this anger is trying to help me not in the best way, but it's a conditioned response. I don't need to take it seriously. I can blow it a kiss, give it a high five and move on to something saner. Yeah, that's beautiful. Very well said. Sadu Sadu.

Uh-ho. Sadu is the Buddhist way of saying uh-ho. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, same said. Yeah. Thank you. And I love that, that, you know, it's anger or ill will or sleepiness arising in the moment, thinking that that's our poor little ignorant selves who don't realize what the source of our well-being is. And us believing, you know, some of the things

that we hear in our larger culture, you should buy this or you should look like this or you should own this in order for your own well-being and happiness. And, you know, we absolutely, many of us believe a lot of that. And that's not necessarily true. So realizing that you're just being taken in

by the larger forces of greed, delusion, and aversion. Because those are big, huge forces in our culture as well. Actually, David Loewa, you should definitely interview David Loewa. He has a wonderful book about how greed-hated and delusion is caught up in all of our cultural systems. And he actually just taught a retreat at the Barry Center for Buddhist Studies. He's a great scholar. He's a Zen practitioner. He would be an excellent person to interview as well. Dolly noted, but let's get back to our list because we've gone through the first 200s as Greedon aversion. The third is Sloth and Torpor.

Yes, Sloth and Torpor. And some other terms for Sloth and Torpor. Yes, sloth and torpor and some other terms for sloth and torpor are heaviness and laziness of body and mind, drifting into semi-consciousness, not being aware of what's happening in the moment, boredom and sleepiness. So those are some of the other ways that sloth and torpor are experienced. Yes. So what do you do about that? Because I see that a lot in my meditation, especially because I've had some insomnia for the last nine or 10 months. So then when I meditate, I'm often

can't to leave her over my lap. My torso is, and I wake up and like, whoa, I've been out of it for a while. So what are the antidotes to sloth and torpor? Yes. Well, the first thing, of course, to do is to recognize that urine sloth and torpor. And that is so important. You know, we can bring the rain method to it. So we recognize that it's happening and we can name it, oh, I see you sloth and torpor and do some investigation of it. What does it feel like in the body and the mind? What does it make us want to do? What's the energetic hit of it?

And then one meditation practice that's very good for sloth and torpor is body scanning, feeling, you know, actually the venerable analyo has wonderful free guided body scans online. Another thing to counteract sloth and torpor is to maybe count your breaths. You can count from each breath from one to 10 and then 10 back down to one or a shorter number if that works better for you. And then also opening your eyes for a while while you're meditating, looking at a light can actually

help increase the awareness and reduce the sloth and torpor. Those are good anecdotes to that. Love it. Can you just for the uninitiated, define body scan? Oh, yes, body scan. I love body scan. I did my very first mindfulness also known as Vipassana or Insight Meditation Retreat in 1980 in Budgaya, India, actually. I'm sure that was before many people were even born.

But anyway, what you do is you just start with your head and just feel your body, feel your face. You know, whatever sensations the body is offering you in that moment, the sides of your head, the back of your head going down to your neck, and just whatever body sensations are being offered. And then to one shoulder and down your arm, just feel it. You know, feel your upper arm, your elbow and your lower arm. Feel your hands.

Thank you, hands. And then your other shoulder and arms and hands to your upper torso, just feeling whatever body sensations the upper torso is offering us, just to anchor our attention there to our lower torso, to our pelvic area, to our upper legs, to our knees, and to our lower legs, and our ankles, and our feet. And you know, we can bring some awareness and some benevolence to that. Thank you, feet. Thank you, legs. Thank you, feet. Thank you, legs. Thank you, pelvis. And

actually, one thing that is also incredibly indigenous about that is, you know, the very first meditation that the Buddha taught his son, Rahulah, was to do a body scan for the four elements and, oh my gosh, you can't go to a native ceremony that isn't centered around the four elements. It's amazing. The Sundance of the Plains tribes. I've done that for many years or a sweat-led ceremony or even the Native American church ceremony. The four elements in realizing we're part of nature is really central to that. That's exactly what the Buddha taught Rahulah the first time he told him how to meditate.

He had him do a body scan four times, first recognizing earth element and then water element and a fire element, which is temperature and then air element, just feeling that throughout the whole body is an excellent beginning meditation. Yes. And it can wake you up this meditation. This body scanning. Yes Absolutely. That is an excellent antidote to sloth and torpor and you know I didn't talk about the anecdotes to ill will or desire can I just say them very quickly the antidote to the desire or Central breed is Recognize and acknowledge it for what it is and resist indulging in it. That's for desire. And then for ill will is also to recognize and say, no, I'm not going to water the seeds and

make that stronger. You recognize the anger, the hatred, the irritation and develop loving kindness or a positive attitude towards that object of ill will. That's really where our well-being is centered. Coming up, Bonnie Durand on recognizing restlessness and anxiety, setting positive intentions, and the fifth and possibly most insidious of the hindrances right after this. Right after this. So the fourth on the list of five hindrances is restlessness and remorse. Tell us about that. Yes, I mean there are other terms there. It could be restlessness and anxiety and it's an agitation of the mind and

it's an inability to settle both mentally and physically restlessness. It's a desire to fidget, to move, to cough or to scratch, to leave the practice, to leave the situation that we're in. It's generally a lack of calm, kind of like a monkey mind, though we don't want to say bad things about monkeys. One thing is to think of it as monkey mind and it's possible feeling a panic or dis-ease, not feeling a sense of ease. So to recognize that and of course, a simile of russusness and worry is a mind like waves on the water surface whipped up with the wind, you know, a lack of ability to settle and to just be present for this moment. And the antidotes for that is to be persistent, to recognize, first of all, absolutely recognize that it's happening. See if you can even look

briefly just in the immediate past to see what might have been the condition for that to arise, to understanding what are the conditions for this hindrance and, you know, the other hindrance is to arise. What actually triggered that coming up? To understand that it will pass, to realize that restlessness and worry is not something that will last forever, that it is definitely a passing experience, and keep returning to the practice. Just keep coming back to breathing in, breathing out, and maybe even telling yourself, I love this. You know, Jack Cornfield, which is another brilliant teacher, would always say, you know, just ask the opposite to a rise, may come and concentration

arise right now. And it's amazing how when you say that you don't want to be greedy for that, just say it once or twice during the meditation and see what the outcome of that is. Setting an intention, that's a huge part of our practice as well. Knowing what the intention is for what we're doing this action in the moment and knowing what our intention is and setting positive intentions. You know, may this hindrance be released? May this hindrance go away, even just saying that once or twice. And then coming back to the practice, yes. That's the type of advice the old me would have been tempted to just dismiss or write off as wishful thinking.

What about the new you? Well, the new me, I mean, it's not that new, but a couple of years ago I did a retreat up at Insight Meditation Society and I was doing a loving kindness retreat and it was just me really. And Joseph Goldstein was dropping in on me every couple of days and I was saying that I was getting a lot of, this is a, you'll know this term, but for listeners might not know this term, P-I-T-I-P-T, I was getting a lot of these kind of warm and fuzzies, which is nice at first, because loving kind of practice can be, can really concentrate the mind

and something that happens. Sometimes when you're concentrated as you get what's called PT is like this kind of rolling warm and fuzzies and again as a former drug abuser that's pretty attractive proposition. But after a while they can be annoying. Yes. Joseph was saying, well just ask for something better. He said just say, you know, say me instead of PT, Mesauka arise. Yes, which is a kind of a, it's like the, you know, the more refined version. It's like the breed to American cheese. It's just slightly more refined. Yeah, it's a very deep sense of satisfaction, actually.

Yes. But you know what? I did that. Well, I thought it was bullshit when he said it to me. And then I started doing it because I have had the experience many times of getting advice that I think is ridiculous and then doing it and realizing that I'm the one that's ridiculous and it worked. I don't know why, but it did and it was very strange, very strange. I know that you know this, but I just want to correct what you just said. It's not you that's ridiculous. It was a ridiculous thought that was arising in that moment. Do you are absolutely not ridiculous Dan Harris? Yes. Uh-oh. Sadist, sadist. Yeah. So let's get to the fifth and this is really, as you said before, this can be one of the sneakiest, most insidious hindrances is it's doubt. Yes, doubt. Yes.

Yeah, having doubt in decision, one way to think about it is having doubt or in decision about the practice and whether we can do it effectively, whether who we're listening to us right now is teaching it effectively. I mean, you know, as a old woman of color, I must admit, a lot of people think, what the heck does she know about this? And you know, I just wanna say right now that I try to practice mindfulness 21st seven. So I see racism, sexism, homophobia, ageism, in myself all the time. So please don't think it's just, you know, white, wonderful men like you, Dan.

I see this in myself all the time. And you know, what we can do with this doubt is just to see it in ourselves, you know, see the unwholesome qualities that's arising in the moment and, you know, not do anything that's gonna prevent us from cultivating the beauty and the well-being that we can have within ourselves. But what it looks like is having doubt or indecision

about the practice, and what I started to say was, as an old woman of color, a lot of people think, well, what does she have to teach me? But seeing the racism, sexism, and our own hearts and minds, because unfortunately, we're raised in a culture that really supports that. And I think we're all just seeing a lot of that right now. And asking ourselves, does this practice really work?

Can I actually do it? Could be a reaction to a less acceptable aspects of oneself? When we're having doubt about whether we can do it or whether this person is teaching it correctly, we can say, what is it about this person or about myself that doesn't think I'm able to do it right? And then you can see all of this self-doubt and self-hatred and self-ill will and

restlessness and worry and say I see you hindrance and you know to just give yourself some love. I think you're absolutely right You said earlier that seeing a hindrance could raise a lot of ill will towards yourself. And that's definitely not the right approach, it's to say one way actually that our Vajrayana brothers and sisters do, that Tonglin practices to realize I'm feeling a lot of self-doubt right now, but I'm going to sit down and just think about the 500 million other people on the planet who are having self-doubt right now, but I'm going to sit down and just think about the 500 million other people on the planet who are having self-doubt right now to realize that it's not personal. This is one of the things that arises as we are born and raised.

Well said. And so let me ask you now that we've gone through the list. Let me ask some questions that might put it all in perspective. One is, you say that we should use this list as a kind of check list. Can you say more about how we might do that? Well, I would say that when we're just going about our daily walk of life, I mean, I'll give you a personal experience right now if you want. I just retired from being a full-time academic two months ago.

And so I'm home a lot right now and I'm trying to figure out what I want to spend my time doing. And I have a beloved partner that I actually winked at on match because he was a heritage Buddhist. He's deaf, he's American, and he worked for a tribe for 20 years. So I was thinking, yeah, this is a good combination. And right now he's having some cognitive issues.

He's not that old, but he's 73 and he's having cognitive issues. And I'm having to deal with that. And I find myself getting mad at him. And then as soon as I feel myself getting mad, I realize that I'm watering the season, fertilizing this unwholesome mental quality of ill will. So I'm trying to just be aware of whenever my anger arises and I try to pull back and think, what is a more wholesome response to what's happening right now? You know, of me wanting to take care of myself and having time

for myself, but, you know, also having to do this practice of taking care of him a little bit more than I would like to, because of just what happens as we get older. So for me, that's one example of dealing with the hindrances. When we see ill will arise, or when we see desire arise, or sleepiness, and lack of wanting to engage with something, or restlessness and worry, or restlessness and worry or restlessness and anxiety to just being able to see it clearly and to say, what's the opposite of this? I want to water the seeds of that. I want to put fertilizer on that mental response to it. That's wholesome and to do that. Does that make sense? It does. And I'm sorry to hear about your partner.

I know. I'm, yeah, I love him to bits. He still has a lot of very positive things, but, you know, this is some of the things that happen as we age. And it's not personal, you know. I sit back and think about the 500 million other people who are going through this very same thing. Yes. Yeah, we've got a lot of that in my family. So, and it is really hard. So, I send you nothing but good vibes on that. Thank you. I feel it. I'm feeling it. So, and it is really hard. So, I send you nothing but good vibes on that. And I feel it. Mine's feeling it.

See, that's one of the things of positive mental factors. You can actually feel that when it's sent to you. I love it. Thank you. And here's another big question about the hindrances. Are they ever uprooted entirely? Yes, they are. But it really takes quite a bit.

I don't know if you've talked about this. Maybe you have that there's four stages of awakening, right? There is four stages of awakening that we go through and The first stage of awakening, so tapana, stream entry they call it, and you know when you reach that level of the practice You are absolutely on the path and you can't leave it. Doubt is eradicated during stream entry. And I love that, you know, that you'll never doubt again whether this practice really works once you reach stream entry. And then, russusness and remorse is weakened during the second awakening factor. And it is definitely totally done away with on the third enlightenment, level of

enlightenment, russes and summary absolutely goes away. And sleep dullness and drowsiness, actually that stays until it get weakens in the second and third levels of awakening, but it doesn't go away until full our hot ship. So you're going to be sleepy and grousey all the way to the end. And then those actual central desire and ill will are eradicated at the third level of awakening. Actually, you know, right before the Buddha became enlightened, he had ill will about himself arise, right? And that showed him that he was still at the third level of awakening, that arose.

And he had to say, I see you, Will, Will. And actually, there's a beautiful story that the earth rose up, the earth mother rose up and told Mara, which was delusion. And the Buddha was having a delusion about whether he deserved to be fully awakened. And the earth mother arose. This is a very indigenous, indigenous example of well,

as well the earth mother arose and said, listen, Mara, I see you, delusion, I see you, ill will. You cannot keep this man for becoming full in light because he's been born many times and done a lot of work to be fully in light and he deserves to be fully enlightened right now. And his awareness saw the Mara, saw the ill will, saw the delusion and it disappeared

and he became fully enlightened. And it was Earth Mother that did that. You talked about how the hindrances can be uprooted if we get enlightened and you mentioned that there are four, at least in the teravata school of Buddhism, the old school of Buddhism. There are these four stages of enlightenment that you work through the more you meditate.

There's just stream entry, once return or non-return or arhant. Those are the names of the titles you assume after you have these meditative breakthroughs. But I guess for the rest of us who are not likely to get enlightened in any form or fashion in this lifetime, can we make the hindrances less likely to occur as frequently through meditation?

Absolutely. I mean, one way to think about this virtuality of Buddhism is that it's the most advanced psychology that was ever developed. I mean, you know, that nature, human behavior, article that said mindfulness is the most impactful treatment or practice for a mental well-being and for letting go of all of the mental disorders that, you know, been categorized by psychology. Yeah. So to just know what the intention is of the action that you're having, whether that intention is wholesome or unwholesome,

and then deciding on whether you're going to carry through with that intention, depending on whether it's wholesome or unwholesome. And again, you can actually look up, actually it's called the Abbey Dama, the Buddhist psychology. You could look up Buddhist psychology it's called the Abidama, the Buddhist psychology. You can look at Buddhist psychology space PDF on Google. And there's a huge amount of free resources to learn about what the Buddha taught about psychology. You know, that's what I love about Buddhist practices that up until recently it's supposed

to be given freely. That's why monks and nuns go around and ask for food and clothing and shelter and medicine. Those are the only four requisites of life. There's a huge amount of free resources available for all of these things that we're talking about today and all of these things that are in your podcast in 10% happier. If people want to learn more from you specifically on anything, where should we send people? Well, I am teaching a lot of retreats at our two wonderful Western Convert Buddhist places at Spirit Rock Meditation Center. I'm on the Guiding Teachers Council there and at Insight Meditation Society in Barry, Massachusetts where our beloved you and I have the same root teacher Joseph

Goldstein is my teacher too. And I love him. He's a wonderful teacher and incredibly enlightened person. I love hanging out with him. And then there's also the forest refuge where you can go for individual retreats. It sounds like you've been there and I would love to see you at the Ajahn Sucito retreat there. Ajahn Tucito retreat there. Ajahn Sucito, you can see what enlightenment looks like. I mean, you can feel his awakening in him.

You don't have to have met her or loving kindness. You don't have to practice it because you feel it coming from him. You don't even have to have some moddy or concentration or steadiness of mind. He brings that to the whole room. It's amazing how he does that. And then there's the Barry Center for Buddhist Studies, which I think is a wonderful place as well. William Edelglass, the director of Barry Center for Buddhist Studies, has a new book coming out that I think is going to be excellent. And that's where the Venerable Analio lives, as you know. He lives

in a cottage, a very little hut right outside of the Baris Center for Buddhist Studies in Barry, Massachusetts, wonderful place. And do you have a website that people should check out? I don't have a website. You know, I just retired two months ago from academia. So you can look at my, actually, you can look at my academia.edu website, academia.edu slash Bonnie Durand. And if you look under web resources, I have a lot of links to excellent free Dharma resources. And yeah, that would be a good place to look there as well.

And I've got a lot of talks on Dharma seed as well. You can look at those and yeah. We'll put links to all of that in the show notes, everybody. And the meantime, Bonnie Durand, always a pleasure. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, I'm very happy now having talked to you. Oh, Dan Harris. I'll go right back at you.

Okay. Thanks again to Bonnie. Thanks as well to everybody who works so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Justinine Davian, Lauren Smith. Our senior producer is Marissa Schneiderman, Kimi Regler is our managing producer

and our executive producer is Jen Poient, scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet audio. We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus. And before I let you go here, be sure to tune in next Wednesday for the final installment of our series on the four foundations of mindfulness, where we're gonna go through another of the lists

that comprise this fourth foundation and our meditation teacher will be the delightful Pascal O'Clair. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early clear. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.