Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 508: Seven Buddhist Ingredients for a Happy Mind | Pascal Auclair

Episode Date: October 12, 2022

Are you interested in suffering less? Today's guest, Dharma teacher Pascal Auclair, is going to talk about seven very specific and practical ways to train your mind for reduced suffering by exploring a Buddhist list called the seven factors of awakening, which is a part of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. We’ve talked about a bunch of Buddhist lists on the show before, but this is one of the happiest of all the lists to explore. Pascal Auclair has been immersed in Buddhist practice and study since 1997, sitting retreats in Asia and America. He has been mentored by Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield, who have both been previous guests on this show. Pascal is now a core teacher at the Insight Meditation Society (IMS) in Massachusetts. He is also a co-founder of True North Insight and one of its guiding teachers. This episode is the fifth and final installment of a series we've launched on the four foundations of mindfulness.In this episode we talk about:The movement from difficult states of mind to more beneficial and helpful states of mindHow the 7 factors can help you create your “best mind”The difference between the “energizing” and “calming” factors How to practically apply these factors to your daily lifeAnd specifically how the seven factors can improve your relationshipsFull Shownotes: www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/pascal-auclair-508See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. Are you interested in suffering less? Well then, this episode is for you. Just to step back for a second, I want to ask my friend, the great Buddhist psychiatrist, Mark Epstein, how do you define happiness? At first, his answer was underwhelming.

He said, more of the good stuff and less of the bad, which didn't quite land for me initially, but over time, I've come to see the wisdom of this answer. You can train your brain so that you're cultivating wholesome or pleasant states of mind, so that when good things happen, you're really set up to enjoy them. And then when bad things happen, you're more resilient.

So today we're going to talk about seven very specific, very practical ways to train your mind for this kind of reduced suffering or to put it in a more positive way for happiness. We've talked about a bunch of Buddhist lists on this show before, but this may be the happiest of all of the lists, at least to my knowledge. It's called the Seven Factors of Awakening, and our guide is a dude who, to me, seems unusually happy. Of course, I've never actually met him in person. We've just chatted over Zoom twice, but he exudes good vibes and delightfulness as you will hear.

Pascal O'Clair has been immersed in Buddhist practice and study since 1997, sitting retreats in Asia and in America, although he is as you'll hear Canadian, he's got a little bit of an accent. He has been mentored by Joseph Goldstein and Jack Cornfield, both previous guests on this show. Pascal is now a core teacher at the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts. He's also a co-founder of True North Insight and one of its guiding teachers. In this conversation, we talk about the movement from difficult mind states to more beneficial and helpful mind states.

How the seven factors of awakening can help you create your best mind, that's Pascal's term, your best mind. The difference between the energizing and the calming factors, the list is kind of divided between the two as you will hear. How to practically apply these factors in your daily life. And specifically how these seven factors can improve your relationships. And as I say all the these seven factors can improve your relationships. And as I say all the time on the show, your relationships are probably the most important variable when it comes to your happiness.

Just to say before we dive in here, this is the final installment of a series we've been running. For several weeks we've been diving into a foundational Buddhist list called the four foundations of mindfulness. It's basically the Buddhist list of the four ways to establish mindfulness or to wake up to stop sleep walking through your life. We started many weeks ago with an overview episode with Joseph Goldstein, then we did a deep dive sequentially on each of the foundations, which include the body, something called feeling tones, the mind, and now we are on the fourth foundation, which is mindfulness of dharma. I'm not going to try to explain exactly what that means right here because Pascal will do a much better job. But basically the fourth foundation is a list of lists, which may sound a little confusing, but the list we're focusing on today is the seven factors of awakening. And again, this may seem a little bit confusing. Don't worry about

it. You don't need to have listened to any of the previous episodes. Pascal will explain the context in a much crisper way that I've done. All you need to know is that we're going to talk about the seven Buddhist ingredients for a happy mind. So just hold all of this context lightly. Okay, we'll get started with Pascal, Oh, Claire, right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives,

but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelli McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out.

Okay, on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from, MySpace?

Listen to Baby, This is Kiki Palmer, on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast. Pascolo Claire, welcome back to the show. Hey, thank you for having me. I'm very happy to be here with you. I know you like to play the role of Dharman nerd and today we are going to give you ample opportunity to play that role. Great. Yeah, let's dive in there. Something very complex. We'll untangle the tangle. We will. It's a little complex, will untangle the tangle. We will, it's a little complex,

but actually in reading my notes to prepare for this and familiarizing myself with how you view this having factors of enlightenment, I am really confident we're gonna give, or you are gonna give listeners something simple and actionable here. Yes, we'll try to do this. And that's the whole idea.

The Dharma should be applicable. All these teachings, all these mindfulness teachings or these meditation techniques, they should be really applicable and the old ideas to make them our own, to kind of learn to embody them or own them in some way. And I think that's what practice is to, you know, then I have to say I come from the world of theater. And in theatre, there's a lot of theory, but the theory comes from practice. And when I was at theatre school, we would have the theory.

And they would say, let's go and check it out if it's true. Like, it's not like the theory is absolute reality or the absolute truth. You know, it comes from practice. Somebody was practicing, namely here the Buddha, maybe, and friends, and they came up with these lists and stuff. It's for us to go see, is that true? When we sit on the cushion, on the chair, if we, when we go about our lives, are these applicable to their makes sense? So the seven factors of awakening,

I think, is the theme today. To me, they have to make sense in practice and in life. They have to be useful. That's what I think. You're reminding me of something that Joseph Goldstein, our mutual friend and teacher, says quite a bit. I, for many years, would be going on these long retreats and listening to these Dharma talks and reading lots of meditation

and Dharma books and seeing all of these lists and maybe computing some of it in a doctrinaire, militaristic, strict way, and his little phrase that cuts through all of that is whatever works. little phrase that cuts through all of that is, whatever works. Yes, that's true. Yeah, whatever works. And to me, like all these teaching also, like we have to go see what it means for me in action. Anything I hear, I'm like, what can it mean for me now? What can it mean for me today?

What can I do with this? Yeah. And if it works, it works. Yeah. We're going to, it works. Yeah. We're going to get into the super practical, but let's just start at a somewhat higher level, a little bit of a conceptual level. I'm wondering if you could ground us

in the fourth foundation of mindfulness, maybe even remind us what the four foundations of mindfulness are, and then explain how this list, upon which we are going to focus today, the seven factors of awakening, fits into this context. Yes, my pleasure. So, what can we be aware of?

Where can we place our mindfulness, our attention, where can we place it, in order to develop what wisdom, compassion, where there's four kind of aspects or four areas, we call them the foundation, what you place your attention on, what your attention rests on, what's the foundation of your attention. So the first foundation is the body, experiences of the body, the breath, the posture, the activities of the body, the breath, the posture, the activities of the body, the, maybe we could put in there the sensations we feel, the, so the body is the first place

that we're invited to put our attention on. It's the Buddha saying you want to develop wisdom, stop thinking about future and past and put all your attention in the present time in your experience of your body now and you'll discover a lot. So first foundation, the body, second foundation, or aspect of experience to become really worth becoming really aware of as it's happening, pleasure, displeasure,

and their absence. When we are experiencing pleasure, it's really good to tune in. That's called the second foundation, second aspect of experience where we are invited to be curious about as it's happening. Third foundation is the quality of the mind. Let's put it this way today. So the mind, when the mind is contracted,

know the mind is contracted, when the mind is open, mind, heart. For me, anyway, I mix them together, a bit mind is contracted, when the mind is open, mind, heart, for me, anyway, I mix them together, a bit mind heart, psyche, the what's happening inside oneself, the emotion, the mood, the states of mind, so that's the third area, the Buddha seems to be saying, when your mind is concentrated, know that it's concentrated, be aware of it. It's important. When it's scattered, okay, no judgment, but just be aware of the scatteredness here. When you're in rage, no, that's what's happening. When the mind is calm or loving, no, that's what is happening. And then we go towards the Ford Foundation. I'm making it a little dramatic for the listener. I told you I

come from the world of theatre. So first foundation, buddy, second foundation, pleasure, this pleasure, third foundation, mind states, emotion, qualities of mind, and fourth foundation, it makes so much sense to me. Then the Buddha is saying, Oh, pay particular attention to this movement from the afflictive mind states or emotions or attitudes towards the wholesome one, the liberating one, the beneficial states of mind. So the fourth foundation is an ad-up on the third. The third is be aware of your

mind state. And the fourth is, let's do this movement from difficult or reflective mind state to helpful ones. Can you be really attentive to how the mind can go from from close down to open, from judgmental to understanding, from cruel to caring. I think it's a beautiful, I mean, the only kind of application use I want to have of mindfulness. I want to be aware in order to help myself live better inside myself and in my relationships. So, the fourth foundation, in a ways, the movement from the five hindrances to the seven factors of awakening, the five hindrances, hinder life. They suck. They keep us from being fully there with our loved ones in our work.

You know, they use our time in our mind, they crack the mind, they crack the brain and the seven factors are a bunch of qualities that are so helpful, so welcomed, so beneficial to our own mind, to the development of wisdom and beneficial to our relationships. And to me, that's why I want to practice.

I want to practice to have more harmonious relationships with my loved one, but also with the people I don't know, take care of my relationships, all of them. So these factors of awakening in my mind, they're helpful for that. Let me see if I can restate some of this just to make sure that our listeners are sort of anchored into the overall context here. The four foundations of mindfulness, which we've been discussing on this show for many weeks now, this is just a seminal discourse of the Buddha

where he was speaking to a bunch of his followers and he said, yeah, here are four ways to be mindful, to wake up, to stop sleep walking through your life. The first foundation, the first way, it's the body. Get out of your head and be with whatever is happening in your body because it's a way to not be so caught up in the discursive thinking, the random thoughts, urges and emotions that govern our life when unseen. The second foundation is a little technical, but it's very interesting. It's called feeling tones or vaid enough.

And basically, the Buddha is pointing out that often below the level of our awareness, there's this river of wanting, not wanting, or not caring. Everything that comes up in our mind is either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Again, this can sound technical, but when you're unaware of this river of preference, or this river of positive or negative valence to whatever's coming up, then you're yank around by it. You're just blindly grasping for the pleasant and blindly fleeing the unpleasant and completely ignoring the neutral. The third area for mindfulness, the third foundation, is mindfulness of mind, which basically means being aware of your mind states at any given moment, again, so that they're not owning you.

And then the fourth, which is easily the most confusing, I think, to many people, because it's a kind of a list of lists. It's mindfulness of Dhammas. In this case, Dhammas being all litany of other lists the Buddha came up with in other contexts. The way you simplify it is to say, actually, you can think about the fourth foundation as a transition from difficult mind states to wholesome mind states.

So last week on the show, we went through the five hindrances, which are, as you say, these pretty sucky, mental phenomena like greed or hatred or confusion. And we went through those and talked about the antidotes. And this week, we're going to go to the positive end of the spectrum and the seven factors of awakening, which are these pleasant, wholesome, positive states of mind that you can be mindful of so that you can cultivate them and experience more of it. Fair summary? Excellent. Perfect. I want to sit at your feet I want to sit at your feet and be led by you. I wish more people felt the way you do. I mean, life would just be so much easier.

I've been trying to become a cult leader, but no, I don't have any followers. I think you have a lot of followers. People who listen to the show, but it's not really the cult level that I've been looking for. I often ask my wife, what's it like to be married to your spiritual leader People who listen to the show, but it's not really the cult level that I've been looking for. I often ask my wife what's it like to be married to your spiritual leader and she doesn't dig that surprisingly.

No, I think you have the right tone, the right approach. It's better like this. Yeah, just acknowledging that I'm a dummy and that you should maybe listen to my show, but definitely don't follow me everywhere. Yeah, I feel safe positioning things that way. In any event, I really do appreciate you setting the table in this way, but let me say to the listener, if you didn't follow all or some of the foregoing,

it doesn't matter because what we're gonna do in this episode is talk about a key Buddhist checklist for your well-being. And that will be easily graspable and massively, practically, useful. So shall we in that spirit dive into the seven factors of awakening, Mr. O'Clair? We shall. Okay, so describe for me,

before we dive into each of the seven factors. Just give us a sense of what is the purpose of this list. Yeah, so it's, they're called the seven factors of awakening. So they're required for insight, for a deeper understanding of the nature of reality, of what's going on in the mind body process, how suffering is created, how suffering is let go of maybe. So these qualities, when they come together, these seven qualities, when they're perfected or cultivated and they come together, they create the best mind, you could say, it's the best mind. And what I want us to look at is that, yes, it's

the best mind for insight, for understanding, for wisdom, discernment, to arise in the mind. It's the best mind for this, but it's the best mind for a bunch of other things in life. And so these qualities, best mind to have insight. Also, when I think, if I'm in a conflict, I want my best mind. You know, if I'm something turns sour, it's not what I expected, what I wanted. I want to have the best qualities to help me navigate the difficulty.

In the same way, if I'm experiencing something really beautiful, I want to have the best mind to be able to appreciate, to soak it in, to be moved and transformed, maybe by what is happening that is beautiful, or meaningful, or rich in some way. If I'm learning anything, I want to have the best mind. If you're explaining something to me, Dan,

I want to have the best mind to be able to understand it. That's why I love these seven factors, because I can bring them in my life, in my relationship, in the different situations I go through and I can cultivate the best mind for any situation. They seem to apply to me and we could debate around this conversation we have. Are they the qualities of a best mind for anything? I want to hone in on something of a dichotomy that you articulated there, because you said they can be used, these seven factors, for insight, and they can be used for everyday life.

What do you mean by insight? Yeah, insight in the Buddha Dharma and the Buddha's teaching is very precise, I think. So this, maybe we could say two kinds of insights. Oh no, another list. So when I say inside, this is what I refer to, two different things. One is a deep, felt, experiential, fundamental, logical understanding of what is truly beautiful qualities of mine. Sometimes I think that resentment is my best option here.

Being resentful is the best way to hold this. But through insight, I might find that there's maybe some other way to hold this. Or self-righteousness. I love it feels really pleasant. Talk about valence, good valence, self-righteousness. When I'm right, you're wrong, it feels great. That's the best way to live. And with further insight, I might discover that there might be another way is to care for the other, understand their point of view. This might be another way to live that is also pleasant, but has more value to it. So kind of insight is a deep understanding that hatred is not going to do it, but understanding might help me, might disentangle the tangles of my life. So, it's about what is

skillful, what is unskillful, because I might hear about it, somebody might say, oh, you should not be a self-loathing, you should be compassionate towards yourself, but to have a lived experience of this, to know from the inside what it is to be kind to oneself. That's a kind of insight. When students sometimes describe this, like, Oh, Pascal, for a moment there was no self abuse or self-critique or kind of a disqualifying thought, and I was deeply touched by this, there's another way to live instead of being harsh with myself, for example. So this is a kind of insight. Another kind of insight, very deep, liberating kind of insight, is when I understand in the felt way, in an experiential way, the changing nature of reality, the ephemeral nature of things.

Wow, emotions, when they're there, there's so much there, and when they're not there, like confusion or ambivalence, when it's there, it's so there, but it's in its nature to pass. So there, but it's in its nature to pass. So it is in the nature of clarity to pass. And so when we understand more and more the changing nature of emotions, of moods, of thoughts, of the relationship, of health and illness, the more we understand this, the more we have insights into this, the more the mind relaxes, I could say, find peace or opens up in a way with kindness. The more I understand the deep, changing nature of reality that I'm going to lose stuff. It looks like a bad news, but the insight into this can open the heart to tenderness. Oh, health comes and goes. Oh, my God. And my

intelligence also comes and goes, depending on the amount of sleep I had or not. And it's like this. So acceptance comes from insight into impermanence for one thing. So would it be safe to say that insight as a technical term and Buddhism, where you're seeing the truth of the way things are, namely that nothing lasts and permanence is the non-negotiable law of the universe. If you try to cling to things that don't last, you will suffer. And if you cling to the idea that there is some solid nugget of pascal behind your eyes that owns all of your experience, you'll suffer even further. Those are the insights

that are traditionally on offer within Buddhism. And these seven factors of awakening can help us create the circumstances where these insights are more likely to arise, and on a much more mundane day to day level, these seven factors of awakening can just make us less of an asshole. You're right. This is exactly it. And maybe we'll get into the, there's a kind of a suspense building like, what are the seven? What are the seven? I hope by the end we'll name them. Okay, let's keep the, okay, let's go there. So yes, there is, it's exactly, it becomes so helpful in life for me. That's what I'm noticing. So it becomes a frame of reference

for me. I live my life thinking of these, But seven is a lot to juggle with. So I brought it down, I simplified it to two. So let me name the seven first, and then I'll explain to you how I got to two, because seven things to think about is too much for a brain like mine. Probably not for you, you can, you can handle it, but for me, I need very simple. Three, I think, is the maximum things I could have in my mind. So two is good. So the seven are, well, the first one is a well-known one. It's mindfulness. So mindfulness, this extra ordinary attention,

this slightly more generous attention, this kind of fullness of presence we give to something happening, this mindfulness, this freshness of in the contact with something, not being used to or glossing over, but tuning in. So mindfulness is the first one. The second one, we could translate the Pali word, Dhamma Vichaya by investigation of phenomena. And I think of it in an even more simpler way as curiosity. So attention or mindfulness, one, two, curiosity or investigation, three is energy. And the way you can think about it, the way the Buddha, I think, talks about it, is like, imagine rain falling down on the mountain. So the rain falls down in the mountain and very naturally, the water will come down

and join a little spring. And very naturally, the spring will join a river. And very naturally, the river, at some point, will join with the ocean, very natural. And he says, in the same way, if you bring mindfulness, attention to something, very naturally in time, curiosity will arise. With the quality contact, with what is happening, the mind will get intrigued.

Very naturally a mind that is intrigued or curious will get energized, it's only natural. When there's curiosity in the mind, it brings vitality in the system, it raises the factor of energy, which is the third one. And then very naturally, as the rain falls in the mountain, comes down to the river and to the ocean, very naturally, a curious, energized mind will become joyful, will experience joy or inspiration or enthusiasm,

will come very naturally, curious joy, very naturally. And a mind that is joyful, that is experiencing contentment, naturally will settle. It won't be that scattered, very natural because it's contented with what's there. It's full of presence, of vibrant presence. So very natural calm arises. The mind is gathered.

It's not looking all over. It's not scattered. So it calms down and it gets very naturally concentrated, which is the sixth factor. And then equanimity very naturally arises. So we go from mindfulness to curiosity that brings energy, brings joy, the mind gets unified or concentrated, and then the mind becomes stable, balanced, very natural. And when all these are come together like this, very naturally, the mind will see more clearly, insight will arise. Deeper understanding about what's going on is going to arise. We're going to see it in permanence more clearly

because we don't have a superficial attention, we have a high quality attention that can stay. So these are the seven, and they're presented here in a linear way that they bring each one, bring to the next one very naturally over the course of practice. So, now we see the seven that can be presented as three calming, three energizing, and right in the middle because there's seven, there's mindfulness. And now instead of seeing like a river going to the ocean, maybe now we could see a sisa, this thing in what children play, the sisa. And so on one side, three of the calming factor, on the other side, three of the energizing factor, and right in the middle is mindfulness. And what we do is we try to balance these qualities, the energizing one with the calming one. And so for me in life, that's why I reduce it to two, is I think just curiosity and calm. Can I bring one measure, so I'll speak to myself like this Pascal, my love, can we bring

a measure of curiosity here? Can we bring one measure of curiosity here? Can we bring one measure of calm here? And sometimes the mind has some liability to it, like it's suggestible. So if I invite these qualities, they might come. And so let's say I'm about to do something that I don't want to do a conversation I don't want to have. Sometimes I think like this,

oh, could I bring a one part of curiosity here? Could I bring one part of calm? Maybe it will help this conversation. And so I boil it down to these two qualities. When I practice, when I am in relationship, when I'm about to do something, or if I'm excited about something, sometimes I'll say this,

oh, could I bring one measure of calm? So I can really experience it fully instead of like hovering above with all the energy? Can I bring one part of calm, one part of curiosity? So to me, this thing brings together the seven, which we should of course double-click at each one. To unpack them a bit. Let me just stay with what you said there about the simplification and how you apply it.

One little question, and this is not me making fun of you. It's a dumb and sincerely inquiring. When you talk to yourself, do you genuinely say, Pascal, my love? I actually do, Dan. Actually, I do it less these days because it's integrated in the kind of in the wordless way, but for many years I did. And it started with hearing another teacher and they were saying something like, hey, sweetheart, talking to themselves. And for me, there's a part of, it's exotic because it's American and it's in English.

But there was something very striking, impressive for me. I was like, wow, this person is so sweet with themselves. And my tendency is not like this. My tendency is much more harsh, demanding, expecting kind of judging, despising, or disqualifying. And I thought it would be good for me. It would be good for me to talk to myself like this. So I started to think like this to myself, both in French and in English.

So in French, it's mon amour, my love. And I started to think like this, to bring in something that disrupts the habitual way I have to talk to myself. So yes, I would say this, hey, or I'll say something like, oh, it's hard for you, my love today. Oh, this is not unfolding as you wanted. It's really hard for you, my love. And this is extremely helpful for me. So in a given situation, as you're preparing yourself for something that either you don't really want to do, or maybe you really want to do it, and you're preparing yourself for something that either you don't really want to do or maybe you really want to do it and you're a little worried about overdoing it, you can summon these two sides of the seven factors of awakening which we're summarizing as calm and curiosity and use your mindfulness to see, oh, which mindfulness again being the fulcrum of the CESA, the center of the CESA, you

can use your mindfulness to see, okay, which is needed right now. And let's see if I can up the quotient of either one and maybe the following exchange or endeavor will go better. Yeah, right. And sometimes when I invite something, the mind is not that pliable or flexible or open. So I'll say like, how, what if we brought a little curiosity here, Pascal? No. It's good to know. Oh, the mind is a, has some rigidity to it. Doesn't have that flexibility. And sometimes like, okay, I can bring a little

curiosity. I don't want to do it. But I'll bring a little energy to it, doesn't have that flexibility. And sometimes I'm like, okay, I can bring a little curiosity, I don't wanna do it, but I'll bring a little energy into it, kind of commit or engage myself into it. Because I know it's gonna be helpful if I do, but sometimes the mind doesn't, it's reactive, it's closed down, it's aversive, it doesn't want to. So it's not possible at that moment, but sometimes it is possible.

Sometimes I think of it as reorienting. Like I have a kind of an attitude and I'm gonna invite another one. I'm gonna check in as you say with mindfulness, like what's the, what are the state of the affairs here with the state of the union here? Like, oh, like, there's a lot of aversion, there's resistance, and the mindfulness will reveal this

being aware, and then could we reorient here? Could we have a different attitude here? Is that possible? I'm not talking about bypassing here, like pretending, like it's very honest. Like, oh, the mind is resisting. Is it possible to bring a little curiosity? Could we bring a little curiosity?

To be really honest also, Dan, I learned this from Joseph because sometimes I would get angry, you know, and Joseph would say, Pascal, the first thing you could do is ask questions. So, and he repeated, he had to repeat it to me many times, but I've learned this. Now, so when I'm angry about something like I perceived that somebody did something against me, I'll bring a little curiosity and I'll start by, hey, what happened? What happened for you? What were you motivated by? How did you understand the situation

to say what you say or to do what you did? And it's really up for security as when awakening factor, a disentangling factor. Much more of my conversation with Pascal O'Clair right after this. Hey, I'm Aresha, and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wundery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities

the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Rue goes out searching for love and acceptance. But the road to success is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threatened to veer Rue off course. In our series, Rue Paul born naked. We'll show you how Rue Paul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers,

opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. I do want to talk about exactly how those of us with vastly less training than you can apply this to our everyday lives. But maybe let's do a deeper dive on each of the seven and then we'll get some advice for beginners. Yeah, so well the first one mindfulness gets a lot of air time. I think of it as an extra ordinary attention, so a little bit more of a

generous attention. What I like also about it is the freshness of it. Like it's not habituated, is that the way you would say it in English? Like it's not like, oh, I've seen trees, I've been in the body for so long. There's a newness to everything. And one of my first teachers would repeatedly say, like almost every 40 minutes or so when I was with them, you would say,

hey, we've never been here now before. It's the first time we're here. And where we were spending a lot of time, years there. And you would say, hey, we've never been here now before. And to me, that was the kind of essence of mindfulness that kind of waking up to, wow, there's a body here. You know, I've never been in a body now before. I've never experienced an in-breath now before. This kind of freshness is liberating in and of itself and it's very conducive to understanding more what's happening because we're not in the preconceived ideas, we're not in our biases.

So that's what comes to mind for me when we think of mindfulness. There's also an analogy that is beautiful. The analogy of the guard at the entrance of a city, there's an old medieval city, and the Queen is right in the middle of the city and there's a path going straight from the door of the walled city to the Queen and the guard its job is to when a messenger comes to the entrance of the city the job of the guard is to take the messenger straight to the Queen straight to the Queen because the messenger on their own, they could get lost in all the little back streets, the medieval city. And so the guard takes the

messenger straight to the Queen. And this image in the teaching says that the guard is mindfulness, the Queen is consciousness, and the messenger is a phenomena. I think that is happening. And so there's a thing happening, it's the messenger, and mindfulness takes it straight to consciousness, makes the Queen receive the message of the messenger. And so mindfulness is the guard taking the message straight to consciousness. And so it's so simple in a way. No, so I sit here and breathing.

I know I'm breathing. I'm bringing the breath, the experiences, the sensations of breath straight to consciousness. Without discursing about it, I'm like, my breath, I should improve my breath. I don't breathe deep enough. I should do pranayamas, and not straight to consciousness, let consciousness experience the breath, or let consciousness experience elation or dejection or a sound hearing. Very simple. The second one, the second factor is dhamma, is translated by phenomena, Vichaya by investigation of phenomena. And a twist that I like a lot about

Dhamma Vichaya investigation or curiosity, as I call it, when we're practicing, it means investigation of phenomena. We are going here to explore, come close to phenomena. So it means to me Pascal. It's not about Pascal here. Like when I sit on the cushion, it's not about me and my agitation and me and my thoughts and me later and me and my body. It's about a body, breath, agitation, as human phenomena, human nature. That's how I understood from the get-go than when the teachers were teaching about this quality of mind was, so you're attentive to

something, but in a certain way, it's a phenomena. And I find this also liberating in and of itself, because I could be on the cushion and refer everything back to me. Like, I'm not so good at meditation and I'm so agitated and this and that. And now it's not like this. Oh, no, honey, let's start what's going on here. Here we're studying human nature. It's ageless, it's universal. The phenomena of anxiety, the phenomena of calm, the phenomena of itch, it doesn't refer back to self in the same, maybe habitual way. It opens up, it helps me kind of fall into humanity. Everything that is

experienced, oh, confusion, ambivalence, shame, joy, arrogance, all phenomenon that can be known. So that's one way that I understand this, Dhamma Vichaya, we're exploring what is impermanent phenomena of nature that comes together when the conditions are right. Let me just put a fine point on that because I imagine many, if not most, if not all of the people listening to this are meditators have meditated aspire to meditate. And what you're saying here, I think bears some further explanation or clarification, which is you're sitting on the meditation cushion or you're doing walking meditation or you're trying to be aware as you walk through the day. and inevitably you will notice things like

thoughts or homicidal impulses or physical sensations like hot or cold or whatever. Something's going to appear to the mind. And this investigation is interesting at a couple of levels, on one level, because it provides some energy. You're seeing things as new, even if these things that are arising have arisen for you a million times. If you lean in in the right way with mindfulness and a spirit of curiosity, it actually, you realize you've never experienced it

right now before, but more of what I heard you say is that you start to realize that this is not yours. This burst of anger that you're hopefully trying to scrutinize with some non-judgmental remove this desire for a chocolate truffle is it can feel like it's uniquely past cows or uniquely dance, but actually it is just desire. As one great meditation master has said, to claim that as yours is a misappropriation of public property. It's nature. And in this way of looking at whatever comes up in your mind, you can start to get out of your own head and feel connected to everything and everyone else. Yeah, right.

And I think they're both right. In my experience, I can say like whatever emotions or sensation I feel, it is 100% happening to Pascal in one view, in one way to experience things or perceive things. And it's also 100% nuts. And so in that view, for example, what's helpful for me in a very practical way, is if I'm in a conflict with somebody, I'm like, I can't believe they said that. And I said that. And why did I say that? And then if I come back to, oh, conflict happens, it happens for human being. This is suddenly it's a phenomena.

I go from it, me being identified with it, to holding it slightly different. Oh, look at this. Oh, beautiful phenomena, just a wizard here. Conflict. Can we get interested in that? How do human beings meet conflict? How can they? What's the possibility here? And so that's that twist for me of Dama Vichayav, investigation of phenomena. And investigation is also very tricky because you could think investigation. I'm going to think about it. And here investigation in the Dharma practice setting means something very specific. It means being there for.

It means experiencing knowingly, lucidly. It's not like trying to analyze and where does it come from. This is another kind of investigation. Investigation in the terms of mindfulness means being really there for the phenomena has its unfolding. And sometimes I think of investigation as a biologist. They go in nature to study animals.

They don't mess with animals, they don't start playing with animals or ask question to the animal, they just stay in the bush and they watch and by the quality of their awareness at some point they understand, oh, they're playing, I thought they were fighting, but actually they're developing social skills around this and that. And it's just by the application of mindfulness by staying that the investigation happened. It looks very passive, but it's very patient and it's non-judgmental again. It stays.

Let's see what we can do with this conflict. Let's feel the tightening in the chest, the contraction, in the heart area, the heat in the body, wanting revenge arises in the mind. It's just being aware of how things move in body and mind. So that's investigation there. So energy, let's say more about that. In this teaching, it says that it comes naturally from the application of mindfulness and that special kind of curiosity for phenomena, that energy will naturally arise. But one way also to think about it in this practice is to often used, it's just enough energy to actually meet experience

and continue meeting experience as it's unfolding. You know I'm thinking about Bikhu and Alayou when he briefly talks about the whole of the Satyipatana Sutan use these letters, Kasi, keep calmly knowing change. So that's the energy required here. these letters, KC, keep calmly knowing change. So that's the energy required here. Keep continuity, keep calmly, that factor, keep calmly knowing that brightness of mind, vicious mind of some vitality intelligence in there,

energy, so keep calmly knowing change, the insight into impermanence. So this continuity of practice, or I love when the Buddha says, how did I cross the flood? You wonder how I crossed the flood of afflictive emotions, of thoughts, of preferences, of all this. How did I cross the flood to the safe shore? of all this, how did I cross the flood to the safe shore? I cross the flood without forcing, without abandoning. Forcing, I would get exhausted and be carried away in the flood and abandoning, I would get carried away.

So how did I cross the flood without forcing, without abandoning? To me, I hear this as a direct instruction about the level of energy or the application of wise energy. That's how I understand to be. But all of us have experienced in meditation and in life over efforting or under efforting and that creating problems. Yeah, and it's great that we have have because this is a path of trial and error to understand what is the right wise effort or energy

to give we have to give to little and too much. And to me, I'm really happy when a student is describing this. Oh, so you're seeing for yourself, this is exhausting. This I'm going to be carried away. I'm going to give up my practice because it's too demanding. No, it seems too much. And so how can we simplify? How can we? And it's an art. It's a science. It takes time. You know, Kamala Master, when she says, just enough energy to connect and sustain attention on an object, energy to connect and sustain attention on an object. Just enough energy to find that level of energy will require some exploration. So it's good that there's too little or too much because mindfulness will help us understand

what is the right amount here. So all of these factors, whether we're playing with all seven or the shorter version of common curiosity, it's a science experiment. We're trying things and learning from missteps. Yeah, and in the fourth foundation, when the Buddha teaches about the seven factors, that is instruction. It seems to be, know the presence of energy, know the absence of it, know the presence of mindfulness, know its absence.

With every one of them, systematically, as he often does, he says, you know when the mind is concentrated, know when it's not, and then he knows, he says, find out what hinders it and what helps cultivate it. And one thing that I remember from the first time I heard these teaching is this invitation.

If you want to cultivate any of these qualities, hang out with people who manifest them, who express them, who live through them. And this I find so, so wise, oh, you want more mindfulness? Hang out with mindful people. Stay away from unmindful people. And so I think that's also, for me, for example, listening to your podcast, to your guided meditations, hearing people who are embodying, manifesting these qualities as they're guiding, it's a way to actually, you know, we're porous. So they get transmitted in this way by hanging out with people who have them.

So even if we live in a meditation desert where nobody we know is interested in this stuff, we can listen to this podcast or Sharon Salisberg's podcast or Sam Harris's podcast and have a kind of virtual Sangha, Sangha being the Buddhist term of art for community of meditators, have a virtual Sangha where we can get the kind of support you're suggesting. Yeah, yeah. And you know, one of the things that is very impressive

for me is when I'm teaching retreats and sometimes on longer retreats, at some point the students comes in to report on their practice and they're embodying some of the factors or maybe all of them. And I'm sitting there and you see my mind, you have had enough time now to notice that I'm energized. You know, if I'm in balance, usually I have too much of the energizing factor, not enough

of the calming one. And sometimes students come in and if they've been practicing for a few days and they're really kind of the groove, suddenly I get a hit of transmission of calm or equanimity, and they'll describe maybe something similar to what they came up with to the retreat, some difficulties, but suddenly they're so equanimous. It's like, ah, it's not easy, Pascal, but it's OK.

And I'm like, wow, I'm getting like a transfusion of equanimity here. So I'm benefiting from my, from the students practice. And suddenly, it's so beautiful to see somebody who's becomes a kind of a embodiment, a archetype of this through their own personality. You can feel their experiencing this deeply. And it has an impact on the environment around them and the people around on me. Much more of my conversation with Pascal O'Clair after this.

Let's move to the fourth of the seven factors of awakening, joy, sometimes translated as rapture. Give us the basics. Yeah, so the word in Pali is piti, and it covers a whole range of degrees of joy. It could be interest. Sometimes it's translated by curious, joyful interest. So it's that level of energy or joy that it's characterized by interest, but it can go all the way up to rapture. So it can become almost, I want to say, our gas make, if I can use that,

where all the cells of the body becomes like little cells of joy, the whole body becomes, yeah. For me, the way I sit happen is I hear the teachings of the Buddha, some of the Dharma stuff, and I sit and start to meditate, and I see some of these things. Oh, the five hindrances, here is one of them, or something like this, people talk so much about impermanence in the Buddha's teaching, and at some point I'm sitting and I see a mind state end, or I see a thought end, I'm sitting and I see a mind state end, or I see a thought end, or I see a sound end. And suddenly, I have the direct experience of the fleeting nature of experience and joy arises. To me, that's that joy.

I associated that this fourth quality with that kind of, I would call it the Vipassana joy, the kind of meditation we do, insight, meditation, sometimes it's called in pali Vipassana. There's a joy in it. When you see that, oh yeah, it's true, these are not my thoughts. They come here uninvited, or their conditioned thoughts related to family culture, or dominant culture, or gender. Oh, this is not exactly me. This is a condition thought. Oh, joy arises. And I've seen this many times, Dan, people describing coming and they say, oh, Pascal, you know, I remember one person saying, like, oh, I've been here for a few days at the retreat center. And I'm sharing a room with two other people. And when I'm in the room, I think, oh, if I wasn't there, they would be happy.

They would have enough space. It would be good for them if I wasn't there. And then I go to the tea earn to serve some tea and somebody waiting for it to serve tea behind me. And I'm thinking, oh, if I hadn't taken space, the person could just have their tea. Now I'm in the way. And suddenly this person described with joy, they say, look at what my mind does. Before I was under the spell of this, I was believing this, I was

duped by this. Now I'm aware, the guard brought the messenger's straight to consciousness. I'm aware that there's this pattern of disqualifying myself. And people report these things with joy, that like, Pascal, I can't wait to go back to practice. I'm sure it's going to show up again, but now I'm not duped anymore. I'm not under the spell. And so suddenly there is this PT that I would translate here by enthousiasm. I want to practice because I'm discovering things. It's very good to see this stuff.

Or I saw my mind become like self-righteous in the moment. You know, I was just cool here and suddenly I was right and the other was wrong. I saw it appear in my mind. I didn't totally believe it. I just saw it land in there. And so there's a joy that can come from this. So it's the joy of practice, you could see. Or the joy of the mind that starts to stay with the object, instead of being scattered, thinking of a hundred things, mostly itself, me later, me in the past, I should have been there, will I be there, etc. Suddenly we stay with just the step, just the step, just this breath, just here,, contentment arises. Just when I thought, Dan, that I needed to be further along

and somebody else and another personality, I'm just with the breath and suddenly all these beliefs fall apart. There's just presence to the breathing body. It's a very subtle little thing, it's a contentment, but it clears away all the thoughts that were in my mind making obstructions and suddenly there's just contentment, which leads very naturally to calm. Let me stop you though before you go to calm. I don't want you to get to calm, Oh Claire, before this

podcast ends. Because we stay with the rapture or the joy for a second, just to say a few things I don't want you to get too calm, oh Claire, before this podcast. And because we stay with the rapture or the joy for a second, just to say a few things in support of your points, one is in my experience, it is such a darma delicacy to see how crazy you are, right? And that sounds counterintuitive, but when you are sitting in meditation and all of a sudden you realize, oh yeah, I've been running this program, this habitual tape about myself worth or lack thereof or my this grudge that I've been carrying against my uncle, whatever, forever, and you realize that I don't need to be carrying this shit anymore. That is incredibly satisfying.

And it can lead to the joy that you're talking about. PT or joy also made a reference to it being orgasmic. I suspect there are some people in the audience who are like, okay, now this dude just lost me. I will say, from my own personal experience, and I'm pleased that everybody knows I'm the skeptic par excellence. In my experience in meditation in recent years, the more my mind has become capable at a low level, but it's become increasingly capable of being concentrated, especially

what I'm doing, something like loving kindness practice, which is a concentration practice. There is this orgasmic sort of MDMA style, warm and fuzzy situation that can roll over the body. Now, it's cool. You don't wanna get too attached to it. I have made that mistake of just like shooting for the PT, but it is kind of faith inducing in some ways that like, oh yeah, the mind is really powerful.

And when you train it, all sorts of interesting things can happen. Best not to get hung up on any particular orgasmic results or to shoot too hard for it because the effort to get it pretty much means you won't get it. But it is pleasant in and of itself and it is an interesting and I think sort of trust and confidence building phenomenon when or if it happens to you that your mind gets concentrated enough that you do feel some interesting things in the body. Agree or disagree with all of the things I just said. Yeah, totally. And I think that becoming attached to it when you're once you experience it is very natural.

So there's no fault in it. It's part of the trial and error for me. So you get attached. You'll suffer from being attached to something that you can't exactly control or that the wanting of it, the greed for it will prevent it for happening. And at some point, the mind understands like, oh, no, this is not worth getting all worked up and looking for it is happening. And at some point the mind understands like, oh no, this is not worth

getting all worked up and looking for it is painful. And so if it arises, I'll benefit from it, I'll experience it with presence, but I don't have to look for it. And also because in a way, it's a candy, and we're going for the gold here inside a deep understanding of the nature of reality that will liberate free the mind and heart so that love can flow and compassion can flow and peace can be there. And so this is a little bit of a candy on the way. And it's a very useful one. It's reported that the Buddha said, I don't have to fear this.

I don't have to stay away from this. This is good on the path. And just by the way, there's so many kinds of joy that we discover on this path. You know, although we talk about it sometimes as, and it's really true as a path of renunciation, meditation can be demanding and hard to actually have a regular practice, needs some discipline and all this, but there's so many kinds of joy that we discover along the way, the joy of concentration, the joy of pT, the joy of generosity, the joy of insight, or understanding. Yeah, there's a lot of joy and the beautiful kinds of joy,

the much more beautiful than the unreliable joy that might happen or not. Different joy that comes from inside, they're self-produced. Wow, independence in this way, beautiful. They're self-produced. Wow, independence in this way, beautiful. And there is, of course, joy in calm. And I interrupted you as you were trying to draw the link between the fourth of these seven factors of awakening, which is joy and the fifth, which is calm. As we are going from the energizing one, curiosity, energy, joy,

and starting to fall into the calming one with tranquility, with calm. So this quality is, I think, is born of contentment. So with this joy, the mind stays, the mind doesn't go in all direction, it stays. It's not so discursive anymore. That's one of the main feature I think of it is that the mind has less to say when we sit in meditation often the mind has a lot to say with comments and narration and preferences and anticipation and planning and as the mindfulness gets more refined and the

curiosity and the joy all these come together the mind doesn't tend to leave the experience in order to comment about it or to look for something else, it stays. And so there's less being said, and an image that is used is the lake, the lake without wind, the very quiet lakes of the mind becomes more like a lake or more space maybe, or and the energy level that you might have with the pity, with the joy that could be pretty high kind of energy. At some point, it might show its defect. It might feel like, wow, it's exhausting. It's a lot of joy.

And you fall into something more subtle, where there's joy still, but it's quiet. It's quiet kind of joy. And the image that is used, I think, around this is, imagine you're in the desert and you're thirsty and there's a lot of afflictive emotion here, am I going to die? Am I going to find what I need? And where's the road? And this and that. And suddenly you see an oasis and joy arises and you run and jump in the oasis in the water and, and splash yourself, and drink.

It feels so good. And after you've drank and feel good and are refreshed from the heat, then you go under a palm tree, and you rest there. And so that's that kind of energy is very different. Certainly you satisfy, and you can rest with ease. That's the calm factor of calm. Any specific tricks that you use or you would recommend to your students because calm is a massively desirable

mind state right now with anxiety at unprecedented levels. So what do you recommend for people who are trying to feel calm at any given moment and really struggling with it? Yeah, well, the hanging out with calm people would be one thing for sure. So I really believe in the phenomena of transmission, of experiencing a quality in somebody else and with mindfulness, like being aware of it and soaking it in this way that comes to mind. But also because it's one of the calming factor, you would imagine that

all the practices around concentration are in the vicinity of calm. So for me, when I practice, sometimes I'll decide to simplify a lot. Let's be just with the breath, Pascal. So you know, I could be with an open awareness and be stimulated by everything that is happening, but I'll reduce my field of awareness to just the belly. And I might even use that kind of instruction inside of myself, that kind of voice, that invites or induces. So just the belly now, very simple, my love, just a belly. And so I'll gather all the

energy around the awareness around the belly, for example. And just stay there for a while. And it seems to refresh, gather the mind and calm it. And at some point, whoops, I can open up. What else is happening? And then hear sounds and feel the feet. And my practice done is a lot of this. It's kind of going from one to swaying from one to the other, and open awareness, and then gathering the mind around the belly or just the breath of the nostrils. And just stay here, simplifying to me is related to calming, simplifying one thing, just a breath, or you were talking earlier about wishes of well-being, from experiencing anxiety, agitation, if I just bring one person to mind that it's easy to think of, you know, with care and just wished him well, that gathers the mind. I would, I think that for me, these are things that have an effect.

Also, maybe last thing here that comes to mind is locating where the un-calm unrest is in the body. If it's in the chest area, you know, in the head space, there's a lot going on. Where is it not in the body? Maybe if I come down to the feet, there's a different kind of energy or even along the legs or maybe I'll find some orange space inside of me, lots going on, lots of energy, opinions and everything. And outside space through the window just in front of me here, space, the unmoving stairs that I see are walls. So these are things. What would you do? I think those are all beautiful. One thing that's really helpful to me, I've been dealing with a lot of

high anxiety and panic and enclosed spaces, elevators and planes. Recently, it's been quite debilitating, actually. But just positive, helpful self-talk. I don't know that I call myself my love or sweetie or anything like that. But like, dude, hand on the chest, dude. This is your brain lying to you. You are not in danger. You're good.

You've had these sensations before. If panic comes now, don't fight it. You can write it out. You have 100% survival rate. I find that to be very calming. And I agree with you about the loving kindness practice or meta practice as just being something that gets me out of my own head. I'm less focused on my

bullshit and training the mind to do a thing that the mind really likes to do, which is have a friendly helpful attitude toward other people. Beautiful. And just by the way, any emotion that arises for me inside myself or anybody who describes an emotion for me, I always start by saying, of course. So if there is, of course, there is a lot of this panic here in this close space, of course, there is. So to me, that's a kind of a phenomena. You know, let me get personal, like, oh, of course, the conditions are such that arises

panic. Of course, it comes. Of course, this happening are such that arises panic. Of course, it comes. Of course, this happening. I don't know, for me it works. It's helpful to start by, instead of like, you shouldn't feel this, you know, you should feel otherwise. Now, of course, this is there.

Of course, there's a strong reaction. Let's see what we can do with this now. I'm sensitive to your time. We are almost at the end of our lot of time, but I do want to give us a chance to kiss concentration and equanimity on the way out here. So, should we run through those two? Yeah, of course. Concentration for me doesn't work so much as a word because I associated with B more concentrated and like it's injunction like a shud, but what works well for me is a unification of mind,

or yeah, something gathering, the mind is gathered, instead of scattered, I think of it in this way, the mind gathered, the mind stays, stays. And so to me, that's several moments, or a few moments of attention or mindfulness stuck together, when the mind doesn't leave in opinions and description, but stays with, you know, this is concentration for me. It's this staying power of the mind.

I go back to Kamala Masters definition of Saty when she said, just enough energy to connect and sustain attention on an object, sustain attention on an object, sustain attention on an object, to me that's concentration, the staying with, staying with. And things that help this being developed is restraint of the senses, simplifying. I'll just be with the stepping, stepping as I walk here.

I'll just be with the breath as I sit here. I'll just be with what the other is saying here, instead of jumping to next week, and what I have to take care of after this conversation, kind of a dedication, giving oneself to one thing, one thing. You know, sometimes I think of this seven factors, even as a baking cake. Like, once you eat the cake, you want taste exactly the egg and flour and sugar.

Like, there's going to be a taste. So when these quality comes together, sometimes like the equanimity, of course, there is calm and equanimity. And in concentration, there is equanimity. And equanimity is this, I think of it as the balance, the stable mind that doesn't fall into the aversion or the clinging to the mind that stays balanced, the equilibrium that stays afloat, has composure, is able to feel what is difficult without falling into despair, falling apart. It's not easy, it's the highest quality of this list and of many lists. And yet Buddha does a be cool teaching in the south of Thailand,

in the forest and in the countryside, we tell the farmers there, you know these factors. You use these factors as you're plowing the field. They're not unreachable and really even the equanimity. You have to have some equanimity to be able to do your whole day of work in the field. If you hit the rock with your plow, you have to have some equanimity to go around to have something break to fix it, this quality inside yourself, this capacity to remain cool in a way

in the midst of the very desirable or the unwanted. It's a beautiful quality of mine. In closing here, could you bring it home for us? Could you answer the question? So what? We just walked through these seven ingredients necessary for a good life and a happy, healthy mind. What do we do now that we've had this tour?

Yeah, well, we either we forget about it because there's so many podcasts and so many teaching, we can't keep them all. But if it resonates in some way or if one aspects of it resonates, like, hey, my little voice in there was saying, hey, this one, you would really benefit from that quality. Well, then become interested in it, explore it, maybe listen to other talks about this or read about it, or try to see if you can locate it when it's there in others or in yourself. And yeah, to me the so what is so important is like,

well, like the whole of suffering is tied to these, you know? Like, like I'm either gonna suffer through my relationship and what happens during the day and the emails I get and my own emotions, or I'm going to be able to accompany myself gracefully, you know, or I've access to a creativity. To me, where does creative mind comes from? From a mind that has some stability that is able to meet what is there is curious, has some, oh, look at this trouble, what am I going to do with this? So this is a flexible mind we're talking about. It's one way to talk about this mind.

It's a pliable mind that can adapt to situation. And so for me, yes, I really want it done. I'm ready to do a lot to have it, because it might seem in practice kind of expensive to get. But once I see that my mind gets these qualities going, I'm like, oh my God, that was worth these 10 years of practice, for sure. It was cheap because it helps me so much. And especially in my case, I don't know in yours, but because of these qualities,

I create a lot less trouble around me. I'm a better friend, partner. I'm a better cis male. I'm a better white guy with these qualities. I tune in to what's happening between us. And I create less better cis male. I'm a better white guy with these qualities. I tune into what's happening between us. And I create less trouble around me. And that's worth it. That was thinking like, are you interested in suffering less? Here are seven ancient time-tested, super practical tools for a training your mind that can help you do just that.

That's a great promotional weight invite people in these practices. Beautiful. I've said this before, but I find you to be utterly delightful and incredibly practical and fascinating and I'm grateful to you for coming on the show. Thank you so much, Dan. And yeah, thank you for your good work.

It's a joy to speak to you. Thanks again to Pascal 10% happier is produced by DJ Kashmir Gapriel Zuckerman Justin Davy and Lauren Smith our senior producer is Marissa Schneiderman Kimi Regler is our managing producer and our executive producer is Jen Poient scoring and mixing by Peter Bonnaventure of ultraviolet audio and We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus episode. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

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