Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 51: Handling Holiday Stress (Bonus Episode!)

Episode Date: December 19, 2016

From the pressures of buying and receiving gifts to surviving awkward office parties, the holidays can be a stressful time of year. On a special edition of the "10% Happier" podcast, our host Dan Harris leads a roundtable discussion with two meditation teachers, Sharon Salzberg and Kate Johnson, as well as David Gelles, an author and New York Times business reporter who covers the meditation scene, on how meditation can help us get through the holidays. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Okay, so we're doing another emergency podcast. Last time was around the elections. The topic at this time is the holidays. So we've got the group of people that you call when it's 9-1-1 time.

So let's start with the newest guest on the podcast Kate Johnson. Kate, hi. Hi. Kate teaches Mindful Yoga in New York City at the public school in the public schools and Buddhist meditation at the interdependence project. Although she just said, I don't even know if I'm a Buddhist, which is to make her a perfect Buddhist in my mind She also holds a BFA in dance from the Alvin Ailey School in Fordham University Which undoubtedly makes her very fun at holiday parties? I'm a winner. You can move David Gels is here. Hey David. Hi, David is a reporter for New York Times He this is third appearance on the podcast. It's because I love him so much He runs a section at the times called meditation for real life,, which is awesome. And he also wrote a great book called Mindful Work, available

at find bookstores everywhere. And then Sharon Salisberg is here. How are we doing? And then get a year. Doing great. This is your third time in the podcast, dude. This is like a new podcast for the both of you to be on here three times means some sort of peyola happening. Sharon is one of the co-founders of the Insight Meditation Society. She's the author of Real Happiness and Real Happiness at Work. And the forthcoming, Real Love, which comes out in June, which I'm reading right now, and is great.

And we're going to be hearing a lot more about that in this space. She's also one of the guiding teachers on the 10% happier app. So we're talking about holiday stress. And this is like a serious issue for lots of people at this time of year. There's a whole bunch of areas where people get freaked out, office parties, family parties, dealing with your kids, talking to your family members about politics, traveling, shopping, money, giving and receiving, expectations, setting resolutions. So there's a lot to talk about and we'll just go through it in no particular order. But

Sharon, when you think about holidays, the things that people get stressed about during the holidays, what comes to mind? What do you think is that? What do you think of the top issues? Well, it's actually something David brought up when we were just chatting before, which is expectations, I think, and thwarted expectations. And and it kind of almost like it's a really intense word. It's something I'm very interested in. It's almost a kind of humiliation. I don't have enough. I can't give enough. I'm not enough in the eyes of these people who I only see once a year.

You know, and we put so much pressure on ourselves. Others put so much pressure on us. And to sort of move away from that to extent one can and feel centered in who we are and be kinder to ourselves and kinder to others is a big movement and I think is tremendously empowering and transforming. And what we need to do because when you really think about it, it's like, well, this is the one-time year we're all going to be together. I better forgive or, you know, get forgiven or do the right thing or say the right thing and it's a lot. So you have a guided meditation on expectations that's up for free on the 10% happier app and also I think we're going to post it in this podcast stream too so everybody can use it. So how can we use

meditation or mindfulness to deal with the issues that you just talk about. Well, I think anytime we're aware enough to see an assumption arise in our minds, to see the self-talk, basically, we can step back enough to see it as a thought, rather than having internalized it so deeply and taken it so to heart, then we can relinquish it. And be happy, you know, and happy in who we are and it's just a question of being aware enough to see it quickly and Having enough kind of flexibility of mind so that when we see it we don't freak out like oh my god, you know I'm meditating all the time and it's still here David you before we started recording a chair and reference this you Zeroed right in on the issue of expectations. What comes to mind when that issue is raised for you? If you think about what so many people do

during the holidays, they create this ideaized like home art card, Norman Rockwell version of what their rives are supposed to look like for the next couple of days or a ride. And it's absurd because you're locked in a room, it might be snowing outside with your family, and there's like lots of alcohol. And that's not a recipe for normalize calm relations. And so the pressure we put on ourselves to use Sharon's phrase to fulfill this expectation that somehow the next spell and these events be it, the travel

I go through and the dinner party and the opening of presence is all going to unfold in this seamless, you know, made for television way with like soft candle lighting and snow falling outside. That's just not real life. It's just not, our lives are never like that. And they're never going to be like that on command during the holidays. So, again, if we can find ways to let go of those expectations, I think that's a great first step to just loosening our grip on this, you know, kind of temporary psychosis

that much of the world goes through over the next couple of weeks. I think you just describe it brilliantly. Since you're the impressario of this awesome new section of the times of meditation for real life, how could you apply meditation to deal with this problem that you just describe so well? Well, meditation, I think, especially in a room full of Buddhists, can have a very kind of specific and almost rigid feel to it. I mean, a lot of times when we hear meditation meditation we think like sitting on a cushion, formal practice. I think it's important

to be a lot more limber in the next couple of weeks because it's not as if you know if your aunt Diane starts screaming at you that you can just like hit the cushion right away. Pearl, you're yourself into the low disposition, but yeah, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. So how can we be mindful in our relations with one another and in our relations with ourselves? So the title of this section is yes meditation for real life, but you rarely hear us giving kind of formal meditation instructions. Instead, what you'll find in this section, and we've done some holiday specific ones, and there are more to come, is really an invitation to be a bit gentler with yourself and a bit gentler with those around you. So we did one about how to be mindful at the Thanksgiving table, and it was some simple tips about being mindful and grateful of some of the sensory experiences around you,

but also of just being kind and compassionate to those around the table to try to kind of reduce the interpersonal stress level Even if they're pissing you off. Even if they're just especially if they're pissed. Yeah, that's exactly right Tomorrow morning actually it'll probably be posted by the time this Podcast is live Tara Brock tells us how to be mindful with your in laws right? So Tara Brock is a famous meditation teacher based out of DC. So she's going to be doing one of your, well, a column that by the time this thing posts will already be up on the internet. How to be mindful with your in laws?

So what does she say? Well, I don't want to, I don't want to speak for her and I'm not reading it now. Though I could, I could pull it up in just a minute. But essentially, I think you'll hear the same thing from her. It's an invitation to let go of some of those expectations of perfection. And if I have any theme going into this holiday stretch, it's to let go of the expectations of perfection.

I love that. Kate, what stresses you out the most about the holidays? Well, you know, I actually really love the holidays. Nice. I was trying to scan my mind for, you know, the things that I find the most stressful. I think, I mean, I really, really, does theme about expectations and the way that I occasionally catch myself constructing a pass that didn't actually happen with a family that didn't always, I really look like a Norman Rockwell family.

And I have found meditation to be incredibly helpful with working with that that often if I'm able to let go of my expectations, I find myself more available for what is actually there, which is a lovely family. It's a wacky family, it's a spirited family. It's a family where we don't cook very well. We burn things and we pick at each other, but we love each other. And so to be able to access the care that is actually available rather than demand that it comes in a particular package has been really helpful for me. I love that you said that you love the holidays. I think that's a really important point that I probably should have hit right off the top.

I love the holidays too. It's a great time of year. It is also stressful. I mean, it's heightened in every way. So thank you for saying that. You talked a little bit about this, but I'd love to probe a little further. Where do you find meditation coming in most useful

during the holidays? Yeah, well, and this is, I mean, what I do find somewhat as stressful is that when I'm going to visit family, there is not, you know, a meditation corner like there is in my New York City apartment where I have my flowers set up and I, you know, I can drink tea and wander over to my cushion in a leisurely way. You know, one year, my sister and I woke up at 7 a.m. to my mother blasting holiday carols and baking already downstairs. I think the deficit of private time is something that I struggle with in terms of maintaining a daily meditation practice. I love what you said, David,

about flexibility that it might not be the 45-minute practice that I do at home. It might be you know, five minutes when I wake up and pretend I'm still sleeping in the morning before my, you know, nieces and nephews come in. It might be offering to wash the dishes and really feeling the sensation of the warm water and looking out the window. So taking those small moments to actually check in with my sensory experience and kind of drop into a little bit of a slower pace helps me find some private space even when a busy and a family situation. That's great. I want to just, what you said is great.

I mean, I want to get you to talk a little, even more about it. So if I'm a casual meditator, I'm just trying to put myself in the position of whoever might be listening to this. So if I'm an interested in meditation, either I'm listening because I'm just trying to put myself in the position of whoever might be listening to this. So if I'm an interesting meditation, either I'm listening because I'm aspiring to do it or I do it sometimes or even if I'm a committed meditator, that tip that you just gave, which is maybe volunteer to do the dishes

or volunteer to do something that may seem medial, but if actually you're paying attention to it, that can be a huge source of kind of refreshment. Yeah. I probably won't be volunteering to do the dishes, nonetheless, but I think it's a really good idea. Well, I think that's part of it. I mean, not that, you know,

we all have to turn into like goody two shoes of the holidays, but I think there's something also about taking an opportunity to be of service wherever we are that can be, and maybe it's not a traditional mindfulness practice, or you know, it might be, and maybe it's not a traditional mindfulness practice, or you know, it might be, I just don't know it, but the idea of, you know, taking some time to rather than say, you know, how can I get what I want out of the situation to say, like, well, let me

watch your kid and, you know, hold them for a little while while you take a walk with your partner, or, you know, those times I think can be, you know, double duty, like mindfulness opportunities for me and also opportunities to give my, you know, sister or mom a break. I love that too, and it reminds me of the quote I mentioned all the time on the show is attributed to Abraham Lincoln. I'm not sure he actually said it, which is, when I do good, I feel good, when I do bad, I feel bad, that's my religion. And actually, there's some things sort of wisely selfish about being used to term goody two shoes of just sort of raising your hand and offering to do stuff in the holidays,

because you will feel better as opposed to just this sort of constricted selfish view of how can I maximize the situation for myself. I have a question for you Sharon, but you look like you might have something to say based on the comments of others before. No, I think there's something about, well, several things that were in my mind. One is we do tend to live more and more in a world of curation and presentation. You know, like many people don't put their mediocre meal up on Facebook or something, you know. And so I think we come together even with these people we are very close to

and we love in that same mode. Like we have to have a presentation. And along with mindfulness exercises, I think a basic reminder consistently to oneself to be kind to oneself, you know, and about self-compassion. So I thought something came up by my mind when you were talking earlier. It was like, I made a turkey one year. I believe it's the only turkey I've ever made. And I made some big mistakes. And the marinade had molasses in it. And as it turned out, I don't know what I did wrong exactly. But it came out with this thick black coating on with the turkey. It was like a cast iron pan around it.

It tasted fine. I mean, so really? Yeah, inside it was sort of smoked a little bit, but it looked like the worst thing. Den Gung was there and he called it the Valdez oil spill turkey. And like all these people were taking photos of it. And I went and it was a terrible failure. But we had so much fun. As long as I could get rid of the incredible shame, oh my god, my turkey looks like an oil spill. And actually, it's a taste fine. But we just had fun.

We were there together. And that was the whole point. It was that we'd be there together. You know, I'm going to a table. I'm going to shelve the question I have for you for a second, because you raised an interesting issue and we do actually have one bonafide young person in the room, Kate. So, I want to ask about social media, because we do live in an era where the comparing

mind is on steroids, because we're looking at everybody's curated life on Instagram, and Facebook, et cetera, et cetera. And that is, tripppling the case during the holidays where we're looking at people in funny sweaters and off on fancy vacations and, you know, with their families and we may not be experiencing any of those things. So, do you ever advice about like social media

consumption in this time or even generally? You know, I think it's not one thing, you know, that there's something really wonderful and beautiful for me of seeing the, you know, funny pictures from families and friends. I would have loved to see that, you know, cast iron turkey photo. So I think there's an opportunity for us, you know, to, to showcase some of the bloopers as well as the picture-perfect moments. I worry about people who are spending holidays alone. When we're posting on social media, I do have a big family and we do come together for the

holidays and I feel very blessed. And then I also know, you know, I have many friends who don't. And so, you know, when they log into their Facebook feeds or other Instagrams, it amplifies the loneliness they might feel even if it was a choice to stay home by themselves. And sometimes that's not. So, you know, usually where I show them love is offline. Like I remember to, you know, try to reach out, just pick up the phone and call or send a text message or a note to make sure that folks who aren't posting a bunch are feeling good. And also to try to remember not to have my face

in my phone the whole time, to actually have the experience that I'm trying to broadcast to the world and not miss it because I'm trying to get the frame right. But what do we do about this question out to the group? Social media just presents such an interesting challenge because we do have minds that naturally compare ourselves to other homo sapiens, that's just the way it is. We are as mammals comparing ourselves to other mammals all the time.

So if you're looking on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, you're going to be seeing happy, happy pictures, carefully curated, and it's impossible or difficult not to compare it to your own life. Anybody have thoughts about like how we can structure our media diet during this time of year to avoid some of that or a mindful way to approach social media? I don't know. I'm just throwing this out to the group. I have drastically reduced my social media consumption and I think it, it, it, it, Wasn't that because you were so exercise about the election?

It was and what I found in fact is that though that was the initial prompt, it's had durable and largely beneficial effects long after the election was the immediate cause. So you found actually a happiness spike dramatic? Just I'm just using social media rest. I still like post a picture of my kid every week or so, but I've uninstalled social media apps from my phone.

Wow. And I'm reading more. I'm present more. I'm doing mindful walking more in the city. I'm noticing more things. But that's pretty radical. I mean, I would have to imagine there is a sense we're talking about Buddhist here a middle way where you can use social media. I mean, I know Sharon's very active on social media where you can use social media and yet not be miserable. Yeah, but it is it is designed to be addictive and they're pretty good designers. So, I mean, you find me the person

who has a lot of social media apps on their phone and is engaged and doesn't check it a lot. I mean, if you use it, you tend to use it a lot. I think social media is actually one of those things that is kind of designed not to be used in moderation. It's designed. I mean, these guys, their whole point is to get you to spend as much of your day as you can on their website. So, you're tweeting a lot, Sharon. Do you think you're addicted?

I also cut back radically around the time of the election, and since it was different. But I'm part of what I've noticed is that the great temptation is to use it as a platform for presentation. You can also really either find people and reach out or you can have that sense of blessing. Probably the things I write that are most often retweeted are simple loving kindness things like, may all beings find peace. You know, may all beings find happiness in the causes of happiness and suddenly that's

going everywhere. And so, you know, even in a time when someone may be feeling really lonely or cut off, that, you know, there's something about that appearing that's like, oh, not only could I be the recipient or someone else's care, I can actually be generating it, even sitting here in my apartment, you know, wishing I had a different scene. I can be generating that, and people participate in a different way. And I went to somebody, I was trying to understand social media and age and things like that because there's a certain age probably where the overwhelming temptation is not just to use it to show a photo of your perfect launch or something like that, but to talk about your shoulder

surgery. It's like that. You know, people kind of come together in different ways. But I have also really cut back, although I still tweet all the time. I don't wanna oversell my austerity because I do share, but to share at this point, the most popular thing I've shared in months,

if can I read it briefly? Yeah. It is not attributed to me. It is something that many people in Dartmouth circles have heard and that I heard from Tara Brock when she visited us at the times about two weeks ago. And I won't read it in it's entirety because it goes on for a while. But it starts, if you can start the day without caffeine, if you can always be cheerful, ignoring aches and pains, if you can resist complaining and boring people with your troubles,

if you can eat the same food every day and be grateful for it, and it goes on, if you can conquer attention without medical help, if you can relax without liquor, if you can sleep without the aid of drugs, then you are probably a dog. Yeah, I love it. And so it's a good reminder,

these platforms can be used to good effect. And some people don't compare themselves to other peers, they compare themselves to animals. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it seems to me that oftentimes, you know, yeah, social media can be used in wonderful ways to help organize people to, yeah, to just share wonderful moments or beautiful thoughts. And then also, yeah, at a a particular point it stops being fun. I think within any given social media session my first, you know, the most fun I have is in the

first five to ten minutes and if I'm on there much longer than that then suddenly I'm just kind of mindlessly flipping through and clicking around. So I think, you know, for me where mindfulness enters into this conversation is actually paying attention to, am I still enjoying this, or am I, am I, you know, kind of following one thing after the other, am I avoiding something that's actually happening now, you know, and kind of diving into this alternate reality. And usually the way I notice that is like, yeah, I'm not feeling my body anymore.

I'm kind of like, you know, or there might be some tension in my jaw. It's just, there's a tightening and kind of automaton feeling that happens that I know, like, okay, it's actually time to shut this down and go for a walk or something. So I think being aware of, is this actually still an enjoyable activity? Is really helpful.

Excellent. Yes, for me at least that's definitely the answer. I don't do it, but I know that. I know it's not enjoyable and I continue to do the same thing. Yes, no, I'm a junkie.able, and I continue to do the same thing. No, I'm a junkie. But Sharon, what I was going to ask you earlier, we've kind of touched down a little bit, but loneliness, huge problems during the holidays. Any thoughts on how one can bring a meditation practice to bear on this issue, which can be really not at you. Yeah, well, it's a terribly, terribly painful state.

It's also the kind of state where, I mean, I think society tells us we should never feel it, you know, like, to sit down and actually feel it and hang out with it and spend some time with it, like, feeling like boredom, feeling like loneliness, it's just unthinkable. And so we will do anything to avoid it and usually do do anything to avoid it. And it's not exactly what we do is very destructive. And so to actually hang in there and accompany that feeling with some awareness and kindness to everyone. Not endlessly, you know, but for a few minutes anyway.

So the difference between wallowing and exploring with mindfulness. I will say so. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you wallow in it, then you're just drowning. You know, you lost. And it's so painful. But exploring it is kind of interesting.

And sometimes, you know, the steps we take to move away don't have to be because we like, loathe the state we're in or we loathe ourselves because we're feeling it. But we recapture some energy, you know, by hanging in there with it. And in that energy, we can reach out to someone who's really in trouble. You know, I have friends who were kind of lost and really depressed. And some of the greatest happiness they recaptured was helping others, you know, going out and volunteering, organizations making sandwiches for people who are homebound and ill and things like that.

And it was genuine joy. And even when going back to social media, I spent some time recently with people who were kind of self-declared introverts. The kind of people who say our funny line was if you're in a workshop or a seminar the foremost

dreadful words you can hear are now choose a partner because you know you have to like gaze hopefully and someone's eyes really soon and you're just gonna want to die. You know and if you're if you're really shy or if you're if you're more kind of loner in that in that way, not necessarily lonely, but more introverted and reaching out to somebody without the sort of social anxiety of being together in the same room and having to look at one another's eyes is kind of a great thing. I would think it's a good step for a lot of people. Volunteering is as close to guaranteed happiness as you can come up with.

I mean, it really, and it's kind of okay. It's hard to talk about without lapsing into cliches, but it will do the trick almost every time. Mm-hmm. And it's related to other things we've been talking about. Volunteering at a soup kitchen is not dissimilar to volunteering to do the dishes for your family. And I don't think it's in the context of the holidays, so different than really focusing on the active giving and remembering that just like me, everyone's experiencing holiday stress.

If I can make it not only about mitigating my own holiday stress levels, but actually seeing what actions I can perform that might relieve others' holiday stress. I think that's another useful framework that can help both, as Kate was saying, selfishly, maybe put me in a good space, but also potentially help others. I think that can happen whether you're with your friends and family, or even if you're alone. So, talk about the joy of giving, because again, it's hard to talk about almost any of these things without sounding, you know,

appreciate. I read that on a hallmark card on my way here. Right, right, right. And yet, and yet, it's a real thing. So when, and it's actually, you can use your mindfulness, which is just paying attention to notice what it feels like when you give something to somebody. And actually, it feels really good.

You said it, and it's a cliche because it's true. But I think one way to think about it is to try to get out of the transactional mentality that we have, that we can even have with our closest relations. You know, this balance sheet of what we're giving and getting over the holidays can be tyrannical in our mind and really quite unhealthy. And I think it's particularly acute during the holiday season. But it's, some version of it is often going on. I mean, even in a marriage, you know, who did the dishes last, who changed the last diaper.

This kind of scorekeeping can be really quite destructive. What do we do about it? Well, listen, I wish I had the magic bullet, but there isn't one. But one way that I find is useful to break the cycle is to try to kind of tune out the score and just focus on the, as you said, the act of giving, the act of carrying. And I mean, I don't know, I'm actually wondering if there's this term, Sharon would know it. Is there a term for meta in action?

I mean, because it's, –Mets had only just to find that meta, it means loving kindness in Polly, which is the ancient Indian language that Buddhist spoke. Anyway, carry on. –Thank you, Dan. And Sharon's the expert. We have the expert in the room.

But it's the, it is the, I believe it comes from the same place, at least in my experience, when I'm practicing meta on the subway as a way to get through a tough commute, it feels like you actually do that. I do. So you'll be sending love and kindness to like other people in the subway. Just strangers on the subway car. Do you look like a total weirdo while you're doing that? Yeah, because I'm going, I'm wagging my fingers in their face.

It's like a raky massage. No, actually, I try to do itging my fingers in their face like a raky massage No, actually I try to do with my eyes averted to the dirty floor But it's coming from the same place. I mean the feeling I get which is why I suspect there is kind of a poly term for it somewhere in the canon The feeling in I mean not to also sound like a hallmark card, like the feeling I get in my heart, when I am performing an action, you know, purely out of benevolence for my family or for charity, is very similar to the feeling I get when I'm practicing meta. And so I don't know, am I off here?

Are they, do they have the same root word? Well, and part of my response was, I wonder if compassion is the word for loving kind is an action in effect, you know. But then I thought, oh, I'm going to give you some word, and then it's going to be on that site, like a boot and everything. That's a big red stamp on it. Like, no, I didn't say that. But it's beautiful. You know, everything you said. And part of what I'm the teaching is about generosity you're giving is that the best kind of generosity comes from a sense of inner abundance. You know, it's not because you feel obliged, it's not because people are watching, it's

the season, you know. But there's something in you that feels like there's enough for you, you have enough for an abundance and it's just this natural kind of sharing impulse. And it works the other way. When you practice generosity or service, you practice helping it. Even for a moment where you knight you with that sense inside yourself, you don't feel insufficient or broken or not enough or deficient or you know and so it's a beautiful practice

because it does bring you back even momentarily to that place and you can abide there more and more. And it's a practice that predates the greeting card industry. We should actually reclaim that. But you know what else is that? The part of the greatness of the holiday season is that we can talk like that. You know, in that sound like completely bizarre. Like, you know, made the blessings of your life abound, you know, happy new years of it.

We can say that to one another. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace, Manduka Yoga Mats, Soul Cycle, and Koto Paxi, as well as entrepreneurs working to solve some of the biggest problems of our

time, like developing technology that pulls energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight. Together they discuss their entire journey from day one, and all the skills they had to learn along the way, like confronting big challenges and how to lead through uncertainty. So if you want to get inspired and learn how to think like an entrepreneur, check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery app. Okay, let me ask you about an area where I know that sometimes we all, you do a lot of this, traveling.

And sometimes traveling can provoke sort of murderous impulses. So I just want to go around the horn here, start with you. Tips for not losing your mind when traveling, and let's even just keep in mind parents from home traveling is tripling hard. Yes, I mean, it's not tripling hard for people who are sitting in the same cabin as the parents, but it's hard. I mean, there's some of the basic things like remember to breathe.

And I always try to remember the humanity of the person that I'm speaking to because it's sometimes hard. You know, they're the ones delivering the message that we're gonna sit here on the runway, hard to say why. But, you know The other week I spent the night in Dallas at their port hotel because My first flight was 45 minutes late and so but you know there was no time to catch the the connecting flight and

I realized you know you could easily spend the whole night like fretting about the fact that you're in Dallas where you could say, I'm in Dallas for the night to go to the end of the year. I didn't think of that. But it was like, the airline had my big bag. I was like, I felt free. I'm a lot in comfort. And it's just like resilience. It's that constant adjustment.

But the biggest thing I have seen is really honoring the humanity of the people because it's, I once, I was teaching in Ireland and somebody told me a story about, the side of the guy was traveling in America and they lost his luggage and he missed his connection his whole thing. So he being who he is, he pulled out his traveling banjo

when he serenaded the person that he was dealing with. And like three or four days later, I was in France and they'd lost my luggage. And I both did not have a traveling banjo nor was I in the mood, but I remembered him. And I thought, you know what, she'd do the best she can. And I just treated her differently, I think.

Kate, any thoughts about how to deal with travel? Expect delays. I think it's like the good kind of expectation to have during the holidays. Yeah, everybody's trying to shuffle around, you know, and everybody wants to get there on time, and everybody's got somebody waiting for them, and most of us will experience delays. And I think going into it with some kind of reasonable sense of,

I don't know, perspective, right, that we'll get there eventually and it helps to carry snacks. If you're like me and I like the way you think. You know, avoid the hangries. I can travel with you. I learned it from my mom friends, you know, Zip-Lop baggies of dried fruit and baby carrots. I mean, again, things that could sound healthy at other times of year, but seeing what there is available to enjoy in the journey. You know, if there's a good book, if there's a funny kid in the waiting area, if there's a halfway decent restaurant, or I don't know, you know, whatever brings, makes it work for each of us, I think. I often like to just kind of sit back and watch the movement of people.

There's something kind of dance like about the, you know, the fast and the slow and the, you know, big groups and the single people and, you know, it's, yeah, the sense of, oh, wow, we're all in it together, which I don't often have the time to sit and observe when I'm, when I'm one of the rushing ones. As much as anything I can think of travel, especially airport travel, it exposes the illusion of control we have over our own lives. So often, it be it in our personalives or our professional rives or our social rives,

we really fool ourselves into thinking that it's all up to us. And travel just makes it clear, it's just not the case. We exist in a dynamic interconnected world that frankly can at times just pay a little regard to your schedule and your next flight time. And I think that's an opportunity, as much as it's a pain in the ass, to reflect on impermanence. Really. I mean, just to get kind of meta, meta, not meta, about it.

It's an opportunity to just reflect on the degree to which we are kind of beans moving through space in a very complex way and marvel at it. And if done kind of with appropriate perspective in a good mood, that can potentially loosen our grip and our attachment on specific actions happening at specifically the right time and things going exactly how we want them to. And then it really helps if you have snacks, if you get delayed. Yes, well said, on all counts. All right, so two more things I want to go around the horn on here. And anybody can jump in at any time just so you know, there's no rules here. So we'll go around the opposite direction. I'll start with you, David. Office parties.

People freak out about office parties. You've got awkward interactions with your boss. You drink too much and you act like an idiot. There's an enormous amount of food and you eat too much of it. This is filled with landmines. So any thoughts on harnessing the power of one's meditation practice, whatever stage it's at to navigate the office party. Well, mine is tomorrow night, so I'll let you know

how it goes. And I think I've read this on a homework card. Stay true to your principles. What are your values? And I think that's something that we probably don't check in with ourselves and routinely enough about. But going into a dynamic situation like that where there's probably gonna be a lot of temptation,

before you walk in there, just ask yourself, what are my values and can I stay true to those? And I suspect the answer, you may value dancing, but you may not value dancing on the table, and you may value a good drink. Less your initials are Kate Johnson. But you may not value good drink. Less your initials are Kate Johnson. But you may not value 12 drinks. Right.

And so check in, just check in with yourself and set the intention to stay true to your values before you walk into that holiday party. No, that's great. I mean, even though I won't say that I've never danced on a table, I'm kind of personally in a funny position because I do observe the fifth precept when Buddhism, which is this no intoxicants.

Yeah, and in a kind of the stricter interpretation, I mean a lot of people are Buddhist and have read it as not getting intoxicating, but I just tend to abstain. And so, so yeah, office parties can be a little weird and awkward. I think for me, I often just ask myself what my purpose is there. It's to often to celebrate our achievements over the year, to connect with people I haven't been able to connect with often. And then when I've achieved those purposes, it's time for me to go. And so I've been that to be really helpful to kind of check in.

And I also check in before I go to see if there's any, you know, I think I'm as like pre-existing conditions that I'm carrying. Like, is there a resentment that I have against someone that, you know, I might want to really tell them off this time of year, is there some neediness I have to be acknowledged by a particular person at work. And it's not like I have to push those things away but just to be aware that at a time like the

holidays when there's lots of drinks going on you know whether we're drinking or not and we're kind of vulnerable to wanting to you know with the holidays and especially the new year like wrap it up in some way and that some things just don't need to be wrapped up at the holiday office party. You know, it's like better to wait for January 2nd or whenever to start again. It's funny, I'll give Sharon a chance to speak here, but it is listening to you speak about holiday, the two of you talk about holiday parties. We have a lot of them here because every show has its own party. And I basically skip them all. It's a void in behavior.

And I got kind of talking to about going to this one particular party this year, which I'm going to go to, but like my tactic is I just don't go. I don't know what's going on there because I'm a social person. It's just, I guess I'm lazy or what? I also don't drink, not because I'm a good Buddhist,

but just because I can't handle it. So yeah, I often find them kind of boring and painful. And so, if you don't drink, there's a certain time when, I mean, for me, I start to get annoyed and I can't figure out why I'm like, why is everyone talking slow? Why? And then I'm like, oh, people are getting

a little wastey pants. So it's like, you know, yeah, usually time for me to add a good point. great use of the term wastey I tried to work in it. That was my personal intention For coming in here. I said if I can work in work wastey pants, then I have done my job. You are staying you to your principles I'd like to say my values That's a kind of homework card I might actually like Now the font of all wisdom, I'm going to the drugstore. Well, I don't have an office, but listening to you, I thought, oh, I missed a party recently.

We were the interdependent. Yeah, we had a holiday party. Yeah. City Interdependent's project is a meditation group here in New York City. Yeah, yeah, because I'm associated with so many meditation groups here in New York City. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm associated with so many meditation groups here in New York City, there are a spate of holiday parties running from Gailas, some of which I've also missed, being on an airplane, and to smaller, more raucous,

but I also don't drink. And I actually don't feel odd about that. Like, there's always somebody in the room who's not drinking for a serious reason. And I always feel like they shouldn't be the only one. Why should they be the only one? Any tips for surviving or navigating office parties given the... I wouldn't feel obliged to stay a certain length of time. I think it's a little bit like in a funny way. It's like

the advice we sometimes give people when they're leaving a retreat and they're going back home and they're going to see their partner or they're going to see their sister or some friend. It's like basically people just want to know you're okay and that you love them. You don't have to go into excruciating detail about on your retreat on the third night, you know, this happened or you know, that's what they want to know. You're there, you care about them and that you're cool. And I think you can show up with such a scene long enough to convey that to the people you want to be communicating with. You know hey here we are together, isn't that cool? Now, peace. So, okay, so here's my last question.

We'll go back around this way. But again, this is anybody can jump in at any time. Resolutions. Yes. And the resolution that I'm most concerned with is I want to start meditating in the new year. A lot of people set this as a resolution and is a very hard resolution to keep.

Why is that and what practical tips would you give people who want to keep this resolution? I think a year is awfully long time. No, I mean, just in the new year. Well, in the new year's fine. You know, but I think that's part of it. I think it's seeing what's realistic and packaging one's intention or resolution, whatever it is, where a length of time. You know that if you say, I'm going to sit every day

all year, not going to happen. If you say, I'm going to, I'm going to sit every day for two weeks. And then we, if I want to, that's a very different thing. And I think that there's, you know, there's the aspiration, which I think should be really big. And usually I think that our aspirations are too small. It's not just that I'm going to sit every day, but I'm going to really explore myself in different ways. I'm going to get to know myself in different ways, and this is going to be a part of it.

So it's like having the aspiration be really big and broad and then within that realizing there might be some days that that's one minute, you know, in other days, it's 20 minutes. Minute counts. A minute counts. Great. Kate, any thought? I'm sure people ask you as a meditation teacher, that people ask you all the time, like, how do I get started?

And this time of year, a lot of people are setting this as a resolution. So any thoughts on anything that people can use to create a durable habit here? I think if it's possible to actually make physical space in your home for where meditation happens and to just go even if you can't be in a meditate, just go sit there every once in a while. And not always possible given people's living situations, but I found that just having this space that is for me feels like a special place. I try to make it beautiful in a way it doesn't have to be fancy, you know, but if it's a couple of, you know, cut flowers or pictures of people I love, things that also remind me

why I meditate, quotes from people who inspire me, you have it feel like something that I wanna do. I think that same thing goes with having a length of time that feels appropriate, having an approach to practice that feels like not like a punishment time, not a time where I'm beating myself up for being stressed out, but actually a gift that I wanna offer to myself, not just at the holiday season, but kind of on a daily basis. Make it fun, make it beautiful, make it special.

I don't do the resolutions thing. And I've thought other people do, how can you help me? Yeah, but I'm here to be a counterpoint. I don't necessarily think resolutions are healthy. And here's why, we live already in this goal-oriented culture. And by setting specific resolutions, we again are setting ourselves up for this transactional success or failure mentality with something that's about our own health and wellness oftentimes. So I, for, I don't know, I've never done the news resolution thing and that's why because I don't want to set myself up for failure, which is interesting to say that I don't have the intention and the aspiration to be healthy and to have better habits and to have a positive impact on the world in the new year. But I'm not convinced that new

years resolutions are the appropriate framework for me to make those changes in my life. Fair enough, fair enough. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, I have a question too after you. OK. This could get dicey. No, I'm just thinking when people give you feedback

about the app, for example, do they say that having a program helps them stay the course with something rather than making it up themselves or having to find the system themselves? The things we hear from app users about why they like it, there are a couple things. One is that the dosage is small, that every day you, you can either go into a course, or you can go onto the Just Meditate section and just meditate, and there are all sorts of lengths.

And so even if you're on a course, it's a short video and a short meditation, and that's great. Or you can go onto the Just Meditate section and do a longer one or a shorter one. So it just seems doable. The other thing is that we have this coach that's available. It's like an actual human being who is an actual mediterior has been doing it a long time.

And you can text that person right through the app and they will get back to you quickly and answer your question. And I think that those are the two things I hear the most about why people, you know, why we have a high retention, right? Okay. I'm peeled in question. You didn't even. Well, it's not a personal question, but although it could be, if you want to respond,

I was wondering if we were gonna talk at all about, like talking with family about politics or that seems to do the major success. Yes, yes. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. Oh, well, I'm, I'm glad you wanted, you want Sharon to hold forth on it. I was hoping auntie Sharon wouldn't mind if I was, how she works with it. I mean I you my family's it makes bag and I'm on

the more politically radical side of you know progressive leftist radical side of things but not everyone in my family is and I've really been I guess my tactic in past years has been to not talk about politics to avoid the topic and just love people for who they are. It's like, might not going to office parties. Right, not exactly, but I, uh, but it's avoidant. Yeah, it's a way to make my point of view. Yeah, it's and I'm and I feel like it actually, it might have been unwise. You know, I'm wondering if there there isn't More that I could have done or should have done to have conversations with With people who have at the end of the day similar values and

Make very different conclusions about what that means in terms of their their political engagement Yeah, Sharon you have any thoughts. I think it's a great question. It is a great question. I'm looking right at it. We probably should have, honestly, we probably should have addressed it earlier on. It's a fantastic question. Well, I mean, I think it's a difficult conversation

for many people to have. It's always good to look at your motivation. You're trying to talk somebody, you're trying to persuade somebody to your point of view that's probably hopeless. I think there's something, and it depends on the nature of the relationship, how vulnerable do you want to be, you know, if it's the kind of relationship where you're okay being truly vulnerable, then you can be truly honest, you know, like, I'm scared or whatever. You know, I find myself feeling this about what I think is likely to happen.

And, you know, it's not in every relationship where you want to disclose something like that, but it's usually more skillful rather than, you know, I find your point of view, repugnant. And I believe it's the doubtful civilization. So thank you so much for the coming apocalypse. You know, I mean, it's revealing what one is feeling. And if, unless, and if you're feeling triumphant happy and, you know, that's what you reveal, even in a situation where maybe not everyone

is going to agree with you. And so, you know, that's what you reveal even in a situation where maybe not everyone is gonna agree with you and so You know, it depends, but I think that's really the cornerstone of senior unintention and and Feeling out what seems most Veropreat or skillful in that context. I'm just reminded that we we in the election stress podcast touched on How charged this can be to have dialogue with we in the election stress podcast touched on how charged this can be to have dialogue with someone in the opposing party because it's not a, it's not that we like different sports teams.

It's that we fundamentally believe that the decisions that are going to be made by the other party are damaging and are going to increase suffering for all sorts of people. Like millions and millions of sentient beings could get really harmed by certain policies. Yeah, that's what I think. And so when that's not easy to resolve, right, that's like really tough. And that's not something that is easy to work with or sweep under their hug. So I don't have a good answer. I mean, that's and when someone in your family holds that view, I don't know what to do. I just don't. I mean,

this is where like reaching the event horizon of my acquired Buddhist wisdom. It's like, we've reached the limit. What do you do? Really? No, no, good. Well, you know, just hearing you talk, I think like, oh, it might actually be a moment where we bring in, where we look for complimentary wisdom to support the Buddhist wisdom. As you were talking, I was remembering something that I'm really familiar with the organization's surge. It's showing up for racial justice. It's an organization and they did this kind of Thanksgiving holiday toolkit. And I think they even had like a help line where you could text people if you were having a

difficult conversation about race and racism. They would respond to you with like support, live support around talking to you. I wonder if they're doing it again for Christmas. I haven't heard anything. They did have this question-answer toolkit where there were like hypothetical kind of questions from or statements that you might encounter with family members who Yeah, who voted in a way that that you know for me makes me feel you know it seems like not so much of a partisan issue as it does a human rights issue. The Trump presidency to me and so to try to get a beyond party lines and sort of talk about, well, what do we actually care about?

And how can we show the people that we care about, the communities that we care about, that we care about? Well, one thing I would say, some of the best advice I've gotten in meditation is the power of interest slash curiosity. So I actually think this is applicable in these conversations, especially for me as a journalist, to just be curious about what are the views on both sides.

And if you actually do that with a genuinely open mind or as close as you can come to an open mind, you may learn something. And so that's what I would say. And I found that skill, which I think is one of the few parts of meditation that comes naturally to me because I'm a journalist, just wanting to know more about everybody's views,

can make these discussions much more fruitful and interesting. The only other thing I'd say is that I think part of the answer to your question is something you yourself said earlier, which is actually the, and again, this is going to sound a little hokey here, but the body is a great feedback. And so you're having these conversations, and if you're actually like, if you have a centilla of self-awareness, you'll see, oh, like, I'm starting to freak out here, you

know, like my chest is buzzing, you know, my face is turning red or whatever, that's just a great way to know, okay, maybe I need to steer the conversation in a different direction or maybe I'm about to say something that could, you know, create a permanent rupture in my relationship with my uncle or whatever. I just find that really useful. I'm not great at doing it, but it is a real tool that you can use. Totally. I think that's awesome. And that's I think the benefit about talking about political stuff with family members, even when they have opposite views is that oftentimes, even when we piss

each other off, I mean, this is how it is in my family, we're not abandoning each other. We're still going to come back together next year. And so I don't really have that kind of container of love around many of the conversations I have with people with opposing political rights. Right, so there's a real opportunity to learn there because you have the container of love. You actually may be willing to like probe further for both of us. Yes, yes, absolutely.

Yeah, I hope so. And I think you know, we can take it away from that kind of topmost level of like, who did you vote for and why? And I think that's the point. When you said issues and even more than that, the story is just like the lived reality of people, who are maybe facing this or facing that or whose life prospects have changed with the results of the election.

And that's the interesting conversation. That's really something I'm curious about. How do you feel about that? It was something that moved you, but you couldn't base a choice on that. There were other things, or do you not see it the way I see it? Or do you not see it the way I see it? You know, is it different? You know? And I don't think it's fair to discount avoidance as a legitimate tactic. And I'm serious, because if that conversation, if both parties are so entrenched in their views,

and it's not going to be a useful or productive conversation, I think it's, I was, I had the thought of avoidance and. That's where the feedback from the body becomes useful. I'm gonna avoid this particular conversation and I am also going to find a way to put my values into action. But it doesn't have to be in trying to convince my uncle that he's a idiot. Timing might be helpful too, you know, as you mentioned, like instead of, you know, after dinner, have to be in trying to convince my uncle that he's a new kid. Yeah. Yeah.

Timing might be helpful too, you know, as you mentioned, like, instead of, you know, after dinner, whatever one's doing shots or something like, you know, like, on a morning walk or, like, you know, that there might be a sensitivity to, is this a good time to bring this up, rather than kind of going in with an agenda? I mean, the Buddha had useful things to say about this, say, that which is true, that which is useful, and say it at the right time. And I find why I like Buddhism is not because I'm particularly into like Lotus Flowers and Petrule.

It's because the dude had lots of practical advice that if you follow, actually you can see in the laboratory of your own mind that it actually can work for you if you follow it. That's the big, yeah. For the record Dan Reeks of Petuli, right? Yeah, I was just going to say and I brought you a lotus flower as a gift. You know, incense is filling in your nose. On that note, I do want to say, speaking of New Year's resolutions and also of speaking of generosity, a little self-promotional

announcement here that it actually actually Joseph Goldstein has been pushing me and my company to do for a long time make the 10% happier app giftable. We now have done that. There is a website called GIFs.10%happier.com. You can go there, you can give the app to anybody you want. So go for it. It might help somebody make a New Year's Resolution actually come to fruition. Guys, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Special thanks to Kate who has never met me before. I emailed you out of the blue like yesterday and said come on this podcast with a bunch of people you don't know. And she doesn't mean anything. Except for Sharon, and you like Aestha, your stars.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. And happy holidays. Happy holidays. Thank you. See you in the next stressful interlude. Thank you.

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