Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 516: Robin Roberts on the Skill of Optimism

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

It is so easy to be pessimistic and, in fact, we are evolutionarily wired towards it with a built in negativity bias. This bias can be super useful, because it keeps us on guard for threats. But like all biases, it can warp the way we see the world. This is why optimism can be incredibly helpful. We’re not talking about blind optimism here but more about grounded, realistic and reasonable optimism. Our guest today, Robin Roberts, has come by this skill the hard way. Not only is she one of the boldest of the boldface names in the news business, where she is forced to confront crime, war, and natural disasters on the regular, but she’s also come through two very serious bouts of cancer.Roberts is the longtime co-anchor of Good Morning America. She has a new book called, Brighter by the Day: Waking Up to New Hopes and Dreams in which she talks about how she has honed her optimism chops, and how you can, too. In this episode we talk about:How to strengthen your optimism muscleMaking “one day, day one”Operationalizing your goalsRobin’s meditation practiceNapping during meditationHow she gets enough sleep given her crazy scheduleEnvisioning the victory Flipping the script so that instead of thinking “what could go wrong?” we think, “what could go right?” Full Shownotes: www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/robin-roberts-516See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, it is very, very easy to be pessimistic, especially right now. But really, I should say, it's always been the case. We humans have, as many of you know, an evolutionarily wired negativity bias, which can be super useful because it keeps us on guard for threats. But like all biases, it can also warp the way we see the world, which is why optimism can be incredibly helpful.

And I'm not talking about blind optimism here. I'm talking about grounded, realistic, reasonable optimism. My guest today has come by this skill the hard way. Not only is she one of the boldest of the boldface names in the news business where she is forced to confront crime, war and natural disasters on the regular, but she's also come through two very serious and very public bouts of cancer. Robin Roberts is the longtime co-anchor of Good Morning America. She's also come through two very serious and very public bouts of cancer. Robin Roberts is the longtime co-anchor of Good Morning America. She's got a new book called Brighter by the Day in which she talks about how she has honed

her optimism, chops, and how you can too. She requested that we do this interview in person, which is a rarity for this show these days. But as you'll hear, it makes a significant difference. Robin has been my friend and colleague and role model for 22 years by my count. I've sat on the set of GMA with her countless times. We've covered major stories together. I have a vivid memory of being in Haiti with her in the aftermath of a devastating earthquake there. And we spent the night one night early on in our reporting trip

with our respective teams, our producers, at the nearly demolished airport in the capital city of Port of Prince, where Robin and I slept next to one another on the tarmac. So a lot of memories and a lot of warmth that has been generated over the years. And you kind of hear this in the back and forth in-person banter in this conversation.

Here's just a little preview of some of the things we talked about, how to strengthen your optimism muscle, making one day, day one, that's one of her little mantras, operationalizing your goals. We talk about Robyn's meditation practice. We talk about napping during meditation. We also talk about how Robyn gets enough sleep, given her crazy schedule.

We talk about the notion of envisioning victory and flipping the script so that instead of thinking what could go wrong, you think what could go right. We'll get started with Robyn Roberts right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral?

Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral. Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. Only fans only bad where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer

on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. I just haven't seen you in a while. I know. Because I quit. Oh, you didn't quit. You didn't quit. You just moved on. I tired. Oh, you evolved.

I evolved. That's the word. Do I seem evolved to you? Yeah, well, you've always seen evolved to me. That's totally another story. Yeah, Rich, she's being sarcastic there. Well, congratulations on your new book. It's really nice to see you.

Can we talk about the book? Please. I am not skeptical, but let me fain skepticism to ask you something and let you respond to it. Okay. I can imagine some people saying, here's this happy morning news anchor coming along to tell me to be optimistic.

She's even wearing a hashtag, bless purple sweatshirt right now, even though I can't see her. But Dan is telling me she's wearing it. So how do you respond to people who might be skeptical about your optimistic agenda? First of all, I'm never going to apologize for being the optimistic person that I am. And that took some time because I knew that people would kind of cock their head and go like, oh, you sure, it's easy for you to be optimistic for whatever reason, your stature in life or

the stature people feel you are in life. And what I say to them is like, I was you. I was you once upon a time. And it's about choice. And I, you know, I'm sorry, not sorry. I choose to be happy. I choose to not sorry. I choose to be happy. I choose to find joy. I make it a choice.

And there are some days, and I even talk about it in the book. There are some days that I wake up. I'm not always like, oh, isn't this great? Look at this guy. Yeah, but what I do is I don't allow myself to string those days together. I have those days, and I let people know you can string those days together. I have those days and I let people know you can have those days, but I used to apologize for being happy. It just, I can't even, it

makes me shudder just to think that I did that, but it's like the default for most people is what could go wrong, not what could go right. And I choose to focus on those things that could possibly go right. Yeah, there's some things that go wrong, but got to change the way you think in order to change the way you feel. And when I'm in that funk, and when I come across somebody who's like,

oh, sure, you're going to tell me, I can't tell you, I can show you some things that have worked for me, but until you get leverage on yourself and it's more painful not than two, you know, that, but that's on them. We'll talk some of the practicalities in the book in a second, but basically what you're saying now is even though my job is as a morning news anchor and I understand the jobs since I used to do it too, my job is to be cheerful.

But an authentic way. I will say this, I remember my mom, I missed her so much, Dan. She would call me after every show. I would call her after every show. And I know sometimes I would call her and I go, hey, Mom, how you doing? Good morning. I just saw you and you, you know, you and now you're all, how my mom, does anybody want? Good morning, America.

I can't go on the air like that, but it's genuine and people who really know me can tell when It's just one of those days and I'm still I don't like to fake the funk, but sometimes that's our job Mm-hmm And I find that if I just push through that by the end maybe by eight o'clock Maybe not so much just seven o'clock, but about eight o'clock it kind of kicks in and I'm like, oh, it is going to be a good day. That brings me to the other faux skeptical question I was going to ask you, which is, you talked about seven and eight o'clock for people who don't watch much morning television.

Seven o'clock is the first hour we tend to do hard news in that hour. I love how you say we. You're still, you said we tend to do. You can't you slip. Maybe I'm angling my old job back. You don't want it. You don't want it. I probably not. But the eight o'clock hours where we get more human interest. Exactly. My style. The bargains, fun stuff, silly stuff. I'm just wondering given in that seven o'clock hour, how much pretty bad news we have to pedal. How do you recommend we stay optimistic in the face of the fact that the world

is a dumpster fire often? What we have found and why people have tuned in to us and we've been number one for 10 years. It's because we will give you the facts. We won't sugarcoat it, but we will find some silver lining. Some reason, for example, E and panel, our lead foreign correspondent was in Afghanistan because it was the year since, we pulled out of Afghanistan. And people remember, people charging the tarmac and on the plane.

It was terrible. And it's horrible things have happened in the last year. So he really spoke very frankly about the situation. But at the end, he found some silver lining. He talked about these group of women that were in the streets. And so people appreciate the look at us and the watch and go, oh, okay, oh, and then there's just something that we will add to the story that just helps you a little bit because people don't want to feel hopelessness. Give them a reason for hope. Our mutual friend Diane Sawyer taught me well ago. The stories that

we do, yes, you want to create a reaction that leads to action. So we will give you the facts, even if they are bad, especially in that 7 o'clock hour. But we find something in within the story, just something, some glimmer, and research has shown that's part of the reason why people watch us, because they know they're going to get the news, but they're also going to get some hope. I also think it's just more honest. One of the low expressions we use in the news business is we don't report on the plane that lands safely.

Now, that makes sense, because it's not news that the plane lands safely, but it is the truth. And so I do think actually emphasizing, as long as you're not being polyanna, ask about it. Exactly. To emphasize what positive aspects there are to even the worst situations, seems to me honest in the most holistic sense. I feel that deep down, that's even the most pessimistic person, they want that. They want just that little bit.

They want you to be, and again, it's not being polyanna. It's being authentic. It's being authentic, it's being real, but it's also, I think, just deep down all of us, even in the book, one of the things I say at the end of my book, brighter by the day, we're all stronger than we think we know. We all have that optimism in us. There's always something deep down that we don't realize. And so to try and bring that out in people and let them know that Yes, you do have that and it's challenging at times because as you said what you say a dumpster fire That's going on and I got to be honest I love what someone says I got to be honest with you means I've been lying all up until this point

But now, but there's sometimes we're doing the rundown in the morning, you know, like 630, we're going through the show and I'm like, oh my goodness, why would anybody want to get out of bed? You know, I feel that way sometimes. And that's when we, you know, we rethink and say, okay, we still have to get this in. But hey, let's find something. But I have that feeling too at times. What do you do on those mornings? I'm trying to think of the last morning, and I remember the producer coming in and there

were like four stories in a row that were just really, I mean, I was like, come on, we can't do this to folks. And so we took one of them out. And again, we put it somewhere else. We put it, we didn't, you know, we're not going to hide the news, but it was just a stacking of it. It was just like, we can't keep like punching people in the face with something. Can't we let them catch their breath and then come back? And so it was just like restacking, reordering how we were going to lay out all the stories, but not again,

not hiding them, just kind of rejiggering them a little bit. Yeah, in Buddhism, we talk about right speech, and it's say that which is true, and which is useful, and at the right time. Yes, yes. Oh, I have never heard that. I like that. Can you write that down for me? No, but that's so true.

And at the right time. Yes. Those are the variables. It's really important. It's not enough to just tell people the truth because first of all the truth, you can pick lots of different truths and give a picture that actually isn't fully accurate. But it's not enough to just tell somebody, you know, your breath stings. You should pick the right time to tell them and figure out whether it's actually useful to

tell them. You can do that. Yeah, that's good in relationships too. The right time to tell you a significant other something. I screw it up all the time. This is aspirational, not an upper version. That should be clear. So I want to go through some of the concepts in your book. You talk early on in the book about happiness versus joy. And I'm sitting across from somebody who has a book,

10% happier, has a franchise, 10% happier, but I'm gonna talk about joy versus happiness. This is good, happiness is good. I'm with you right now, you're a long time friend, seeing you brought me joy, not happiness. I mean joy, you didn't even have to say, you just came out of the bathroom, down the hall. I see you immediately brought me joy. You didn't even have to say you just came out of the bathroom down the hall. I see you immediately Abrupt me joy

Joy is just something that is there's no Rhymer reason happiness. Oh, I got that raise. Oh my team won all the saints. I love my saints You know when they went on a Sunday I get happy, but it's the joy that you have from seeing your son, the joy that you have and he doesn't have to do a dog on thing. So that's what I talk about. Joy versus happiness. And I just really asked people, what are those things that brought you joy? For example, as I'm maturing, not aging, maturing, a dear friend of mine who wrote my mother's

memoir, Missy Buchanan, and she wrote a book about maturing, not aging, maturing. A dear friend of mine who wrote my mother's memoir, Missy Buchanan, and she wrote a book about maturing. And she said something simple. She said, what do you think about? What brought you joy as a child? And I said to myself, tennis. I haven't played tennis in forever. And Dan a couple of years ago, I started playing again.

Amber even remarks, when I put on my tennis gear and I got my tennis racket and I go out to hit with the pro, you should just see me. I'm that kid again and Mississippi. Joy. So I challenge people. Remember those times, what were those times, especially when you're younger,

when you didn't have a mortgage and all those things, whatever. What brought you joy? I ask you, Dan Harris. what is the thing that you did or something that just brought you joy? Playing the drums. There you go. Do you play?

I do. If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is, take an inventory, think of the things that bring you joy instead of being wistful about them and nostalgic, operationalize it now in your life. And that's what I did with the drums. I bought myself a drum set. I got my son who was six at the time and is now seven lessons. We played together. I played when he's out of that house and it is the happiest time of the day.

Exactly. And when I brought my tennis racket, I had not played tennis. I couldn't remember the last time I had played. And so when I research and saw, I want to hit with the pro. Who can I find? I got to get the gear again. I can't play with my wooden racket anymore. I got to get a new rack. So yeah, it's taking that inventory and then taking action. It's also what I talk about in the book.

Instead of saying, you know, one day, one day I'm gonna play again. I made it day one. I flipped it from one day to day one. And that day one, when I was back there on the court instead of talking about it, actually getting out there again. And it's just that being intentional. And so many times we're just so wistful, we're like, oh, and I'm like, what?

No, not one day one, not one day, day one. That is actually one of the things I was gonna ask you about. Make your one day, your day one. You're really saying, if you're talking about this in a way that maybe I'll get to it, you're doing yourself into service. You know how many people right now listening, are going, oh, that's right.

How many times have someone said to them, you know, one day, one day I'm gonna learn another language. One day I'm gonna play the drums again. Just think about that. Those people who were thinking about that one, that saying that. And just, so what if they said to themselves, all right, tomorrow's day one.

Tomorrow's day one, I'm actually going to take the steps to make this a reality and not some whistle-wish in thinking. And you don't know, like, you know, playing drums would bring me horror, not joy. Somebody, you know, when I say tennis, it's thought of playing it. So only you know what that joy is, and just take the time. And that's something else that you and I have both talked about. And I talk a lot of my book being mindful. Just taking just we're it's such a rat race that we're on.

We're always trying to get to point B into point C and just being still being quiet, my grandma Sally called it quiet time. She didn't realize she was meditating but she she just called it quiet time. And it was just settling and listening to your inner self. And set up all the outward chatter. I was thinking about somebody I was talking to recently. And they said they stopped picking up their phone the first thing in the morning. That's the, used to reach for their phone and go through their social media and that. And they said they realized it was like a thousand people screaming at them in their bedroom.

Wow. And made a conscious effort and saying, no, I'm not going to pick up my phone first thing in the morning. It's just, again, just getting to know yourself and taking that time. And it's not as hard as some people feel that I have a full, I have more than a full-time job. I got lots of different jobs. We all can make excuses, but I choose to make myself a priority. I choose to make my well-being a priority.

And yet, you are definitely walking the walk. I can attest to how busy you are. It's superhuman. And yet we do know from the science that human behavior change, habit formation, is diabolically hard. So I can hear people listening to this, and that you and I are both summoning people

who are not in the room and are mine to address whatever concerns they might have. I can hear people saying, I get it, make your one day, your day one, but man, I'm just not good at motivating. I would say to them, really, you're saying that to yourself. Have you said it so long to yourself that you believe it? I found myself, this is a small example.

Grow up playing sports, sportscaster, ESPN, all I ever wanted to do. People would try to pull me into news, wanting me to be a news journalist. And I would say, no, every market where I worked, the news director would come to the sports department and say, hey, kid, come over here, you can make more money, more proceed. I say, no, got to ESPN still saying no. And then I would realize I was saying no out of habit. When I had the opportunity to go on to Good Morning America, my first reaction was no. And then I was like, is it really no?

Is I just getting the habit of saying no. And so for someone who's, I'm just not, have you been telling yourself that for so long that you believe it? Stop where you are right now. Do you still fill that way? Maybe you felt that way five, 10 years ago or whatever point in your life. Don't assume that's how you feel now. So that's what I would say to somebody who's saying, I'm not motivated.

I'd want to know like, why are you saying that? What's leading you to say that? What's leading you to believe that? And let's see if we can unwrap that? What's leading you to say that? What's leading you to believe that? And let's see if we can unwrap that and change the way you think. Well said. You talked about quiet sitting. The last time you were on this show, which was a while ago, and some of our listeners may not have heard it, you talked about your own meditation practice. Yes.

So I want to get you to just sort of tell that story again, how you got into meditation and what it does for you now. Oh my goodness, we don't have enough time but I'll get into it because I was one of those you were talking about somebody who's saying hey but I'm not motivated. I was one of those I can't meditate. You're crazy. I can't stop my thoughts. No, I'm alive. You're not supposed to stop your thoughts. So once I realized that was a big help but but what really brought me to it, a mutual friend and one of your former colleagues, my current colleague, George Stepanopoulos. And I remember something was happening on Good Morning America. And I mean, I can't remember what it was, but I just remember the feeling and I was just,

oh, I mean, the hair and the back of my neck was standing up and I turned to George. That's it. Dude, what, what, what, I said, what are you doing? And he told me about the meditation, transcendental meditation that he does. And so he set me up with his instructor, Bob Roth, and I was now in a place to, it's kind of how you said,

you can, it was the right time. It was the right time, because I was ready. And before if I tried it, it would not have happened, but I was ready. And he gave me the instructions, and the mantra, and all these things. And first time, woo! It was great.

Seeing colors and things, this is some good, you know what? All right, I go home and I'm doing it on my own and I'm not feeling it. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, oh, it's not like it was that first time. And so I went back for a refresher course with Bob. And he said, what's it deal? And I was like, you know, Bob, you know, when I did it with you and, you know, early on, I was really feeling, you know, I was really in the moment and, you know, all this. And he said, Robin, meditation is like a big pool of water.

There's a shallow end and there's a deep end. You got wet. Don't be so concerned about if you're in the shallow end of the pool. You still got wet. And once he said that, it took off all those expectations of, quote, unquote, chasing that high again. And I realized that even those times that I thought it wasn't so deep, I felt the benefits of it later.

I remember Amber, my dear partner, 17 years. And I was picking her. I came from the office and I had to pick her up and we were going to the airport. And I got to our place and she, I called up and said, down on the car, we got to go and she said, oh my gosh, I overslept. I'll be down as soon as I can. And she came rushing down to the car,

and she got in the car and she looked at me because she was all ready for me to go, ah! And I was like, we get there in time, we get there in time, if not, we'll get another flight. She looked at me like, you meditated today. And that's an example. And it's true. I was just like, it just, it, it calms and energizes at the same time. I am more creative since I started meditating about five or six

years ago than I have ever been. And it's for those people who are shaking their heads going, I can't meditate. I can't stop my thoughts. I've been there, I understand it. Some days are better than others and some days I'm really consistent. Some, for a stretch of time, I'm really consistent with doing it. And other times, I'm not. I don't beat myself up, get back on the track with it. And what it has really done is brought a calm and peace

and this crazy energy at the same time. It's the oddest thing. And it's just, again, having no expectations. It's the one time in the day, Dan, because you know, especially as a journalist and being on a morning show, there are expectations out the wazoo for you. But when I meditate, there are absolutely no expectations. It's the one time in my day or twice in my day where there are no expectations. You talked about crazy energy. I'm interested in that because you wake up at 3.30 in the morning and then you go pretty hard all day long.

Shot out of a cannon. So how do you have energy at all? I mean, I've done that job and it was a crusher for me. Meditation has helped because it used to, and it's so odd for me right now because I can't even remember a time now when I was drained in the morning. There, I mean, way back when before I was meditating, I didn't even realize I was sleepwalking

through life. I felt that if somebody met me for the first time about 11 o'clock in the morning, they would have thought I was an idiot because I couldn't put two words together because I was just so, I was just exhausted. The meditation for whatever reason, And I thought the same thing. I'm like, so I'm gonna get up earlier to meditate instead of sleep. And that's gonna get me more energized. It didn't make sense to me.

But it's true. It's true because it's just the settling of my mind. Yeah, and thoughts will come in. I'll have thoughts in the morning when I'm meditating going, oh my gosh, I've got a flight to LA, I'm going to Ghana for this, and it was just all true. And then the thoughts come in and I just push them to the side,

go back to my mantra. And then when I complete my meditation, I'm not anxious about the trips I have to take. I'm not anxious about seven o'clock and having this, you know, dumpster fire that is the world. And that comes from my meditation. And I cannot remember a time that I didn't meditate. And I just wish that it's not that people didn't tell me earlier in life. It's just that I wasn't ready. It wasn't the right time. I wasn't ready to accept it. And

you really helped too, Dan, because what you said, I love the right time. I wasn't ready to accept it. And you really helped too, Dan, because what you said, I love 10% happier. I remember when I asked you, like, what do you mean by that? And you went, like, if you got 10% back on your investment, you'd be happy. I was like, yeah. Well, that's it.

See, we're always going for the macro. And it's taught me to, the micro, was what it's all about. And it builds to the macro. Instead of always chasing that, you know, the behemoth. And it's like I and it builds to the macro instead of always chasing that, you know, the heath. And it's like I say about brighter by the day, not trying to get brighter by the week or the month or the year.

Just how about today? How about just today be a little bit brighter. Coming up, Robin Roberts on the benefit of putting in the hard work, the importance of sleep and strengthening our optimism, muscle to be prepared for adversity. Right after this. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just gonna end up on page six or Du Moir or in court.

I'm Matt Bellesai. And I'm Sydney Battle. And we're the host of Wundery's new podcast, Disantel, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud. From the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out

in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans form the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship. Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans. A lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed

to fight for Brittany. Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. That's what I see when I look through the topics we're gonna cover from Brighter By the Day, The Doe Book. You're talking about a series of accumulating and compounding small wins. Not, hey, here's one solution to all of your problems after another. No, and I'm glad you said that because if I had that, I'd be the richest person in the

world and everybody would be walking around happy and reaching all their goals. It's not that simple, it's not that easy to do, but what I do show people is this step-by-step, eventually it can get to that, that it's not going to happen. And we live in a microwave world right now. You want to get married, go on the bachelor. You want, like, everything's instant. Oh, you want to be a rock star, hair, American idol. You can mean that, you know, you don't have to go through what everybody else did.

So a lot of people have that kind of mindset. And I'm saying, hey, you know, it worked out for a lot of people. Kelly Clarkson, you know, hey, she's done really well. But the vast majority, that's not going to happen for us. We're going to have to put in the work. We're going to have to put in the day by day and just how you said cumulative. And I got to say, as a lot of people will say, you know, youth has wasted on the young and you want it now, I am so glad to be in this season of my life, enlightened as I am, it would have been wasted on me way back. It just would have been. And yes, so I give people the step-by-step instead of just my sayings, my mantras, and things like that,

I put some meat on the bones. I try and give people examples of dreaming big and focusing small, which is a big thing with me. Everybody has that big dream and I did too, but yeah, my first job, $5.50 an hour, 30 hours a week working in Hattisburg, Mississippi and was happy to have that as a position on air in sports. And it's just letting people know that those small steps can lead to that big, whatever it is that you want.

Think small dream big, yeah. You can have a big dream, but don't expect to put yourself in microwave and get it. You've got to do the hard spade work along the way. And it's so much more gratifying. It leads to, I had an opportunity four years out of college to go to ESPN. As the first time ESPN tried to hire me, four years out of college. I had only worked in two local markets at that time and I said no

I Turned them down Because I didn't just want to get to ESPN. I wanted to stay there. I want it staying power. I knew I wasn't ready. I knew that I didn't have enough to keep me there. So that's what I'm saying. Putting in the work, there's such a benefit. And it's harder for people to understand sometimes, not understand.

I mean, of course, who doesn't want to win the lottery? But how many times have we seen most people who win the lottery, what happens? Doesn't end well. It doesn't end well. Now, I'd like to bust that myth. You know, let me win negative millions. I'll change that, but the vast majority don't do well.

And it's just that when it's instantaneous, it's just not as gratifying. I think deep down we do want to do the work. We want to feel that we've earned it. We don't want any, no one wants anything handed to them. No one does. Here's a little secret about me. I am addicted to rock documentaries. I will watch any of them and they're always the same story. Group of people get together, they make a few hit songs, they have meteoric success,

they get addicted to drugs, they break up. Always the same story, and I can watch it over and over again. And I think it's similar to the lottery thing. You think, you know what you want. You think you know what you want, which is limitless money or limitless fame and all the mates you can possibly conjure. That's a nice way to point you out.

It doesn't lead to abiding happiness. No, Oprah, a long time ago, she said, fame and fortune, it just accentuates heightens what you are to begin with. Yeah. If you come into a lot of money and a lot of recognition and you're a good person, yeah, you can be an even greater person. If you're not and you come into a lot of all that, lot of recognition and you're a good person. Yeah, you can be an even greater person.

If you're not and you come into a lot of all that, you're just a bigger schmuck. It doesn't really, I don't think it changes you. It just heightens what's there to begin with. Can I just go back to your day to day for a second because having done your job in the past, I'm just curious about it. So you're up at 3.30, you're doing your 20 minutes of TM. Do you nap at any time during the day? And when do you go to bed?

How do you actually keep your body functioning? Oh, great. Oh, you, that journalist in you, it comes out. Sleep is so underrated. Sleep, I'm telling you, I, again, it coincided with the meditation when I made it a priority. Charlie Gibson, another friend of ours,

said to me when I first started working in morning television, saying, you are going to get invited to everything, but be too tired to go to anything. You know? And I was like, oh, no, I'm not. And yes, to answer your question, I used to think, oh, one of those, I'm not. And yes, to answer your question, I used to think,

oh, one of those, I only need four hours. I can be fine. No, you can't. None of us can. And so as much as it pains me, especially because I love college basketball, and during March Madness, I want to see those West Coast games, I am lights out no later than 9 p.m. when I can.

Like, there's sometimes I have to go up, but I mean, on average, I am lights out by 9 p.m. Amber purchased us a blackout shade because sometimes, especially in the summer, it ain't dark by that time. And so, again, being conscientious about it and making it a priority, which I have with the sleep. And do I nap? Sure. And sometimes my meditation does it turn into a nap? Sometimes.

And I was told that's okay. It is okay. It is. I used to think, oh no, I'm beating myself. No, it's my body telling me that I need the rest. And so making it again, a priority and sleep, I'm telling you is another thing that changed my life because I was on average getting about four tops five hours of sleep. Now I get minimum six and a half to seven, minimum. And that's saying a lot for someone who's getting up and you're invited to things and there are things that I want to see at night, but I just make it a priority. And that's again, I know I've been using that word a lot, but that's what you do.

What are you going to make a priority? And once you make it a priority, once you say this is important, you will find a way for you to make it happen. Because I know there's some people who are listening and go, well, Robin, Dan, I got kids, so at night I got to put them sleeping. And then I only have this portion of time for myself at night. And so I don't want to go to bed because I haven't had, again, what's most important? And how are you going to be better for your children than if you take that time for

yourself? First, I'm going to keep working through some of these concepts from the book, change the way you think to change the way you feel. What does that mean? What does that mean? You know how sometimes something has bothered you, something like something happened or whatever, and then you forgot about it. And then you actually spend the energy, what was I mad about and you made yourself think again what it was that you got upset about. I don't know why, and I've been guilty of doing that as well. I have found that when I am just like I'm exhausted or just not feeling my best and I'll just stop, I'll acknowledge that. That's one thing I've also done in recent years that I would only acknowledge

the good thoughts or only acknowledge the good feelings. No, if I'm down or depressed, I acknowledge it and go, okay, why are you visiting me? What do you want? And sometimes it's like a little kid that's like pulling it to your leg pant and then you finally say, what do you want? And they go, nothing. That's how it is sometimes with this bad feeling. It's like, I acknowledge you, what do you want? And they're like, I didn't think you were gonna pay attention to me. I don't really want anything,

but okay, thanks for acknowledging me. And so that's what I'm saying about changing the way you think. And it feels so good when you actually have taken that time and you bit just in a bad place and you just stop in your tracks and go, no, no, that's it. I'm not, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna feel this way and just have a happy thought do something, think about oh, I'm gonna, oh that's right, I'm gonna play tennis this weekend. I haven't played in a couple of weeks and I really am thinking that right now and that will get me,

that will change the way I feel at this moment. Does that run the risk of denial or compartmentalization? I'm glad you asked that because I am not someone who's always happy or denying the feelings that I have that are negative. I acknowledge them. I honor them as I do the good feelings. And when I say honor them, I don't put them up on a pedestal, but I honor them as I do the good feelings. And when I say honor them, I don't put them

up on a pedestal, but I honor them by acknowledging them and saying, you are in me right now. I do see you. I do feel you. What in the heck do you want? And nine times out of 10, it really doesn't want anything. I've conjured something up in my head that doesn't really exist. And when I take the time and realize, well, gosh don't gosh, Robin, what are you doing? And just move on. Let me tell two stories from the meditation world that we'll back you up. One is, I heard this great Dharma talk once.

That's kind of a term of art for when you're on a meditation retreat and the teacher gets up and gives a talk in the evening. And the teacher was talking about how he was meditating in the backyard in the tent and his cats, cats trying to get in. And it was so annoying he was trying to meditate and concentrate and the cats were just attacking the side of the tent. And he finally got up and let the cats in and all they wanted to do was curl up at his feet. And he said, that is the way we are with a lot of our difficult emotions. We keep them at bay, we keep them at bay.

I love this. But if we just let them in, all they want to do is be seen and then they curl up. The second thing I wanted to say is that it is very common for great meditation teachers to use a television analogy when talking about our mind states, which is change the channel. Oh, yes. So if you're stuck despising somebody difficult in your life, you can say, is there anything I admire about them? Can I focus on some good quality? And there are any number of ways to change the channel.

And that doesn't mean you're denying the difficulty or experience. You're just not giving into it wholly. Hey, Ben. Thank you. I love those two stories, especially the cat story. Well, I do a big cat because you, I know we used to give you such grief on the air about your love for cats.

I do love it. I know you do. But that's, I'm glad that you put it that way because it's so true. It's so absolutely true. But I can just see the cats and then they come in and that's how your motions are and they get in and then you're like, that's all you want it. And you conjure up something so worse than what it actually is. I made notes of things that I thought were really interesting from your book, so I'm going

to ask you about them until we write a. Sure, sure. In vision, your victory. What is happening? Yes. Oh, because this goes back to the athlete in me, Dan. And I remember like, oh, did you know I was a state bowling champion in Mississippi in the age of 12? Is that true? It's true.

Age of 12, because that was the only thing they'd let a girl do in sports back then. That was pre-title nine. And so, okay, that's all you go, let me do. I've got books on it. I would go to the bowling alley. I just bowl-bowl, and then I became a champ. You still bowl? You know, occasionally. It doesn't bring me the joy that tennis did, because I got so competitive with bowling. So now it conjures up different feelings, but I still enjoy it. But I would actually get up on the lane, some doing like I'm walking with you right now.

Look at the pins, and I would visualize all the pins down. I would actually visualize the strike, and then I would go and I'd roll the ball, and it happened a great deal. But I envisioned the strike before I actually did it. It's actually, again, instead of thinking what could go wrong, think about what could go right. Why do you spend energy and I've been guilty and we all are, I think of all the endless possibilities of why something could go wrong. And it's just instead of envisioning victory, instead of that envisioning all that could go right. I mean, I challenge people right now.

The thing that they think is, they got something on their mind, something that they just flipped the script. And that's what I'm talking about when I say envision victory. But Robin, I'm gonna bring back into the room, all of our listeners who are saying, don't I need to plan for all the horrible things that could happen at any given moment? You're going to have the skill set to handle those things because you have done all these

things that we're talking about. When the bottom falls out, because you've gotten into habit, which I talk about, optimism is like a muscle, they get stronger with use, it becomes your default, it becomes your go-to when those things start happening that are seemingly out of your control. But because you've gotten in the habit of being positive, because you've been positive on purpose, which is one section of my book being positive on purpose, it's not going to prevent those things from happening, but it's going to help you when they do happen. It's like when I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2007, and I was angry.

I thought I'd done all the right things. I was athletic, moderate drinker, did not smoke. All the things that, you know, they're supposed to lessen your chances for cancer. Get diagnosed, talking to my doctor, I'm angry. I get through chemo, radiation, the surgery, and I'm doing well. And the doctor said those things that you did

did not prevent cancer, but boy, sure helps you kick its butt. And so that's how I look at it when people say, okay, when the bottom falls out, how's that going to work? Well, because you've done the homework, because you've done the work on yourself, when those things happen, and they will happen, you're going to be better prepared to tackle them and take them on. Let me give you another Dharma story about worrying and how we can overdo it. I, for a long time, was a devout believer in the power of worrying. My dad had an expression that the price of security is insecurity. Oh, wow.

It's a great thing to tell your children. So I one day, I mentioned this to my meditation teacher and I was like, yeah, if I missed this flight home, am I not justified and worrying about all the bad things that could happen if I missed my flight? And he said, look, maybe on the 17th time that you're running through all the horrible ramifications of a missed flight, ask yourself this question. Is this useful?

And he's saying, I'm not saying never worry. Just don't worry past the point of your failure. Thank you, thank you. That's it. That's good. That's good. And that's so true. And when you look at it like that, it's saying that you can't or you're wrong for doing that,

worrying, of course, we all have fear. Fear just needs the eye of a needle to get through and it just paralyzes you. It's just knowing, and I think I'm a walking, breathing example of this to show past. Just let it pass. Just let that just acknowledge it. It's okay.

Yes, I'm not a bad person. Oh my gosh, meditation. Oh, it didn't work because I'm worried. Yeah, no, not of that. And just again, I talk often talk about just, don't wallow in that state. Don't stay in that state. It's okay when you're there and you're not a bad person

and you haven't failed. It's just, don't stay there. I think you're saying don't stay there and get in the habit of envisioning the victory. Yes, get in the habit because you have endless things in your mind that you're thinking could go wrong, endless. What is it? I'm gonna butcher it, but it's something like a lot of things have happened to me in life,

some of which actually happened. It is Mark Twain, the worst things in my life never actually happened. Exactly! Yeah, yeah. It is Mark Twain, the worst things in my life never actually happened. Exactly! Yeah, yeah. It's true. It's true, but in our mind they did, but they actually did not happen. But in our mind they have, and that's just the waste of energy. It's a waste of energy, and a positive use of energy is to visualize the victory.

Spend that energy towards that. Yes. Envision the victory. And it's not envisioning victory. Spend that energy towards this. Yes. Yes. Envision the victory. And it's not envisioning victory. Like I can't personally envision being in the NBA because of 5.7. Baby 5.8. I used to use it as a volumizing shampoo. So I can't, we're not talking about envisioning impossible victories here. You're talking about envisioning things that are within your grasp that you can do. Exactly. But when you say that, I just watched the documentary on Muxie Bugs.

That documentary, I'm telling you, he was, I mean, he could barely see over this table that we're sitting at right now. And he went on not only just to be in the NBA, but he excelled. And so I'm not going to tell anyone that it's unrealistic. I know where you're going, but who are we to say to anyone that what they are dreaming or what they're hoping for? And I have to kind of catch myself because sometimes I'll have a young person come into my office and they want to vice on the industry. And oftentimes they want to be on air. And I'm talking with them and I'm watching their tape and I'm thinking, yikes, I don't

really know if this person, you know, fits realistic for them to, but I'm not going to say that to them. And you know, there are times that we defy the odds, but I do agree with you in somewhat being real about those things that you set for yourself. But I can't even really get that out because I never want to squash somebody's dream. I'm afraid. Yeah. Coming up, Robin talks about making the decision

to be positive on purpose. And she talks about how she sometimes goes back to the wisdom in her own book when she's facing personal challenges. After this. After this. You mentioned before positivity on purpose. Yeah. Can you say what you mean by that?

Oh, it's kind of what I was saying about optimism, being a muscle that gets stronger with use. On purpose doing it. It boils down to everything being a choice and being purposeful. And so when I say be positive on purpose is there are things that will have hazardly happen. But those times when you're faced with something and you could either be negative or positive, choose to be positive on purpose. You could very well just go like, there's no way I can't do this or I don't, or whatever.

And then you on purpose say, no, I am not going to see the glass half empty or half full. I'm going to see the glass. That's what I mean about being on purpose. That makes sense to you. So see the glass meaning it's not half full, it's not half empty. It's the glass. You got a freaking glass. Right. Can you be happy's the glass. You got a frickin' glass. Right.

Can you be happy with the glass? Why do you have to be so concerned? Oh, it's half empty, it's half full. No, you got a glass. A lot of people don't even have a glass. That's what I mean about being on purpose. Those are the things I'm talking about. You've got to spot these things.

And there are things all through your day. If you just take the time to just to spot them, Queen Elizabeth died recently. And I was, it was raining cats and dogs. And then all of a sudden a rainbow came out. I don't know where. I mean, you know how England, I mean, it was raining like you wouldn't believe.

And it was announced that she had passed. And it was like almost symbolic of her, like she even brought light into darkness. And just that moment, you know, it's those things, you know, spot that rainbow. How many times do people actually, you know, oh, spot those different rainbows in your life that are happening during the day? And again, just a little thing. And those become compounding habits because then you're rewiring our innate negativity bias, which we evolved for to be able to spot threats. But and we need it to a certain extent, but you can also train its opposite, which is our innate negativity bias. Yeah. We evolved for to be able to spot threats,

but, and we need it to a certain extent, but you can also train its opposite, which is our capacity to be grateful for all the little awesome stuff that we otherwise might overlook. In the words you just said, train. Yes. Yes.

Okay, so we're calling it a skill, but let's be honest, you've had many challenges in your life. You referenced 2007 breast cancer diagnosis. I believe it was 2010 when you were diagnosed with cancer. Well, 2012, I was the very treatment that saved my life, put it in peril, my low-displastic syndrome, which is a bone marrow disorder.

So the chemicals, the treatments that they used on me and I'm not regretting at all. I had triple negative breast cancer. I was 46. They had to throw the kitchen sink at me. And they did. And it saved me. Unfortunately, I fell into that small percentile that that medication put my life in jeopardy again in 2012 and I needed a successful bone marrow transplant. In 2012 I was told you have a year to two to live unless you have a successful bone marrow transplant and thankfully my sister was a perfect match and there was already they already checked the registry and there was no one that was a match.

And a family member is only a match three out of 10 times. So I beat the odds just with the fact that my sister was a match. But I'll tell you a little bit of a funny story and it's true. So doctors tell me this and I'm, you know, I'm just like, you gotta be kidding me. I understand with breast cancer,

make your mess your message and I got the message out about early detection because I detected it early on that it helped. So this happens and I'm like, what is the message in this? And it's like, oh, get people to register on the bone marrow registry. And I didn't realize, I thought it would be automatic. I have three great siblings and I thought, surely one would be a match.

And when the doctor told me, me no chances are they're not. And you're going to probably have to find someone. And I went to my mother and my father had passed away a few years before that. And I went to my mom and I said, you know, butch and Dorothy, my brother and sister had already been ruled not a match. It was still on the table that Sally Ann could, but we weren't sure. So I went to my mom and I told her that and I said, I gotta ask you something, Mama. She's like, yeah, does daddy have any more kids out there?

I was like, as you all mercy, I hate, you know, I don't know. I don't know, he was, you know, he was in the military. He's a fly boy, Tuskegee Airman. He was looking good. I'm fighting for my life here, Mama. But I also, and I did that. And it also cracked her up. But yes, to get back to what you're initially saying,

I have faced my challenges. So being in the state that I'm in, it's not because I've had this perfect life. No one, I am the most imperfect, perfect person that you'll ever meet. And you have a challenge right now, just to say. Yes, my love of my life, Amber, is currently facing breast cancer.

And it's been very difficult for this role reversal. She has been by my side to my two battles as my caregiver and now I'm hers. And as much as I, you know, people keep saying to me, oh, boy, you must really be helping her because you've gone through it. She's helping me be a caregiver. She's helping me understand because she's been through it twice. And it is this helpless feeling and when a loved one is going through something and I have had those down moments and I have had to go to the vault in my mind and go like, okay Robin, pick up your book. You know, because sometimes we're all guilty of this.

I can preach a storm and then even Amber was the one when I was kind of down about her and just like, oh my, and she's like, didn't you just write a book? Maybe we need to read a few chapters. And I was like, yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. And thankfully, my automatic default is to, okay, we got this, I'm gonna think about all the things that could go right about her diagnosis. Not those things that could go wrong.

And in the beginning, I was focusing on all the things that could go wrong. And in the beginning, I was focusing on all the things that could go wrong. But she was diagnosed. End of 2021, she was diagnosed, had her surgery in early 21, completed her radiation in the summer of 2022. And it's going to be a long road. It has been a long road. And I am so proud of her. She's a Northern Cal girl, she's earthy crunchy, and you know, just, but it's been challenging as a caregiver to watch a loved one.

You know this, you would do this, Dan. I remember my wife and I used to see Amber in Soul Cycle all the time. Oh, that's right! Very active person, and I hope to see her back there. And I would just say in closing here, you kind of gently made fun of yourself a little bit for not applying your own wisdom in this very trying moment.

But the original translation of the word mindfulness, the ancient word from mindfulness is saati, a sati. It's in an ancient language called Polly. We now translate it as mindfulness, but the original translation was remembering. And we can learn so many useful things. That's the easy part. The hard part is remembering, and you ultimately remember it, and that's what counts. Oh, thank you, Dan. I've never heard that and I do a morning message and prayer on my social media. And you know how many times people will say to me, thanks for reminding me. And I will say that. I'm not saying anything that's brand new. It's just reminding you of something that you've known all along.

And thank you for saying what you just did because again, I would say that to other people, but I didn't even realize that's what I was doing myself when it comes to Amber where she is. Thank you. That's what friends are for. That's what friends are for. Let's bring some Dion Warwick into this.

Oh, it's gonna be on my new season of turning tables. Dion Warwick. Dion Warwick into this. Oh, it's gonna be on my new season of turning tables. Dion Warwick, Dion Warwick. Turning the tables, season two on Disney Plus, check it out, hosted Emmy Award winning. Wow, you saw I was gonna do that. Emmy Award winning show from Robin Roberts. You should check that out aside from her book, writer by the day, and the fact that you can see her

every morning on Good Morning America, lots of Robin Roberts for you to access. I encourage you to do it all. Now must they thank you so much. Thank you, Dan. Love you. Thank you. Big thanks to Robin Roberts.

Really great to see her. Just a quick reminder her book is brighter by the day and season one of turning the tables with Robin Roberts, one, her and, and season 2 is in the works. You can find it on Disney+. I want to thank as well everybody who works so hard to make this show a reality. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Jettin Davy, and Lauren Smith. Our senior producer is Marissa Schneidermann, Kimmy Regler, is our managing producer, and our executive producer is Jen Poient,

Scoring and Mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus meditation. members, you can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with 1-3-plus in Apple podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. at Wondery.com-survey.