Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 559: How to Handle Family Drama | Nedra Glover Tawwab

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

If you’re part of a family, you’ve probably experienced some level of drama. Maybe it’s minor annoyances, like an uncle who chews too loudly. Maybe it’s divorce, sibling rivalry, or abuse. There are lots of flavors in this noxious cornucopia.Nedra Glover Tawwab is a licensed clinical social worker and the author of the new book Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. She’s here to talk about how to handle family drama of all types.This is episode two of a four part series in which we are doing some counter programming against the typical Valentine's Day fair. Content Warning: There are some brief mentions of rape and incest in this conversation. We also talk about substance abuse, sexual abuse, and domestic abuse.In this episode we talk about:Nedra’s own experiences with family dysfunctionThe terms boundary issues, enmeshment, and codependencyThe uncomfortable realization that you might be (at least part of) the problemThe limits of compassionWhat to remember if you choose to spend time with a family member with whom you have a difficult relationshipWhy you should not “un-become” yourself just to fit in with your familyWhy shaming people doesn’t make them better–and what doesThe temptation of receding into a victim mentality, and how to avoid itWhen to end a relationshipWhat the term “toxic forgiveness” meansSome of the myths about forgivenessAnd her remedies for various family drama scenarios, including: How do you get your mom to see a therapist?Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/nedra-glover-tawwab-559See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey everybody, if you're part of a family, I am quite sure you've experienced some level of family drama. Maybe it's minor annoyances like an uncle who choose too loudly, or maybe it's more serious stuff like divorce, sibling rivalry, alcoholism, or abuse. There are many flavors in this noxious cornucopia, and it goes right to one of the central conundrums of being a human, which is that we need other people to be happy. And yet other people can be a gigantic,

Titanic, asic. My guest today is going to talk about how to deal with all kinds of family drama. Nedra Glover-Tawab is a licensed clinical social worker and the author of the book, Drama Free, a guide to managing unhealthy family relationships, which will be released later this month and is available for pre-order right now. This is her second appearance on the show. We had her on about a year ago to talk about her best-selling book about boundary setting. In this conversation, we talked about Nedra's own experiences with family dysfunction, the terms boundary issues, enmeshment and codependency, the uncomfortable realization that you might

be at least part of the problem, the limits of compassion, what to remember if you choose to spend time with a family member with whom you have a difficult relationship, why you should not unbecome yourself just to fit in with your family, why shaming people doesn't make them better and what does, the temptation of receding into a victim mentality and how to avoid that, when to end a relationship, what the term toxic forgiveness means. And she also runs through some of the myths about forgiveness. And at the end, we do a lightning round of her remedies for various family drama scenarios, including how do you get your mom to see a therapist? This is, I should say, part two of our four-part Valentine's Day counter-programming series.

Our thesis is that Valentine's Day is both overly rosy, sorry, for the pun there, and also overly focused on one narrow band of human relationships. So we're going to go broad and a little dark here on this pod for Valentine's Day. Speaking of which, just a heads up that there are some brief mentions of rape and incest in this conversation, we also talk about substance abuse, sexual abuse, and domestic abuse. One final thing to say here, there are a few stray sounds in the background, nothing major, just the nature of remote recording

in a pandemic. Before we jump into today's show, many of us wanna live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you wanna do and what you actually do?

What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis Santos. To access the course, just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%.com. All one word spelled out. Okay, on with the show. on my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts the questions that are in my head.

Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby This is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Nedra Glover-Tawab, welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me again. It's a pleasure, congratulations on your new book.

If you're comfortable, let. It's a pleasure. Congratulations on your new book. If you're comfortable, let me ask you a personal question, and you can obviously not answer this if you're uncomfortable, but you mentioned in the book that you had some to use the psychological term here, adverse childhood experiences that there were some tough things that went on in your childhood. Would you be willing to talk about that as a jumping off point?

Yes, I would. So I grew up in a home with a single mother and there was substance abuse, certainly in my family, multiple family members. There was verbal abuse. I've witnessed domestic violence and I've grown up around people who suffered from mental health issues.

I think sometimes we don't know what that is until we leave our homes and we see like, oh wow, this isn't the norm for other people, but within our systems, you know, we think it is the norm, or at least I thought it was the norm until I start, you know, maybe going to sleepovers and talking to other people, and I'm like, oh, wow. So your dad doesn't drink.

So very early on, I knew something was a little bit different, and also that those differences made things more problematic. And how have you managed this dynamic as you've become an adult in a mental health professional and somebody who advises other people on family drama? You know, lots of therapy, lots of honesty with myself, lots of repairing of relationships, placing boundaries, all of the things that you may see me suggest, right? So it's not unpracticed material. It's all very practice. It's strategic.

It is a lifelong process. That's how I know that, you know, we are continuously healing. There may be times where I feel better about something and then it comes back up with being a therapist is really helpful for me to have my own therapist. So as people are talking about their stuff, I'm not re-experiencing or I'm not having any trauma

in those situations, but I definitely think that my level of insight is personal. And it appears that, you know, that makes people more comfortable, even if they don't know about it. You know, my clients aren't like privy to my private life, but there is some comfort and some of the things I say because it's like, yeah, that's exactly it. I'm like, I know, because it is also my experience. I think it's useful also in the context of the discussion you and I are going to have, because people will know that you are no stranger to family drama and that the things you've recommended have been tested in the laboratory of your own life.

Yes, I am the therapist and the patient. It's interesting to have this discussion with you because just coming from my perspective, I've just had an enormously lucky life, not to say that there's been no family drama, but I may represent somebody on a different end of the spectrum. And I say that because I want to serve all listeners, I assume there are going to be a lot of listeners on this podcast who are going to say, yeah, I completely resonate with the descriptions

that Nedra gave of her own childhood. And I think there are probably a lot of people who had a reasonably quite happy childhood. And yes, definitely drama drama definitely difficult personalities within the nuclear and extended families but way less dramatic. So how can we do this conversation in a way that speaks to everybody? Hmm, I think we need a different definition of what this functional family is. Sometimes we do try to box it into like abuse and neglect and those things.

And that is certainly dysfunction. But I think there are things that happen within families like sibling rivalry or issues with in-laws also challenges with your parents allowing you to be an adult and not try to control your life. Like it's not just trauma is so many other things. And I think that will bring more people into the conversation because yeah, all of us, we haven't experienced trauma. I think that's one leg of it, but there are so many other things

that can make our relationships unhealthy with family members. Right, so this isn't a one-legged beast. This is more like an octopus and probably even more tentacles than that. There are so many flavors of dysfunction, of drama, and this conversation and your book speaks to the whole catastrophe. The whole catastrophe, absolutely. So you begin the book by talking about getting a sense of what dysfunction looks like. Can you paint a picture for us?

Hmm. Disfunction is having unhealthy ways of being. Today, I created a piece of content on Instagram where I mentioned one level of dysfunction could be financial abuse within families. You have some situations where parents get bills that they don't pay in children's names. That could be dysfunctional because that sets the child up for future financial issues. Gossiping within the family could be dysfunctional. Also the abuse and neglect favoring one child over the other,

maybe emesiting with a child and trying to control their life in various ways. That could be dysfunctional. Anything that is unhealthy for you could be dysfunctional. I think in our relationships with family, certainly once we become adults, we have some ideas around how we prefer to be treated, what we like to share with people, what we don't want to share,

how we want those relationships to go. And when people are pressing upon you that you have to do many other things because it is family, there may be some dysfunction in there. You lay out in the book several terms. You use one of them just now in measurement, but there are three terms you use codependency, in measurement, and boundary violations. And these are terms people may or may not have heard just as they've moved through life, but it might be worth if you're up for it.

Just giving us some brief definitions of these terms. Well, boundary issues are not respecting the needs of other people or not being clear about what your needs are in your relationships. In families, especially like parent, child, I grew up doing a time where kids can really have boundaries now fortunately. My mother was a boundary respecter, but other members of my family, it was like you're a kid,

whatever happens happens, you have to listen. But sometimes that's not always healthy for kids. Kids have emotions, they have feelings. What they think is happening in their world always healthy for kids, kids have emotions, they have feelings, you know, what they think is happening in their world is a big deal, just like it's a big deal for whatever is happening in an adult's world. They have physical boundaries,

they have sexual boundaries, they have emotional boundaries, and as we become adults, we still have some parameters around how we want to be treated in relationships. Co-dependency is where we gather around an unhealthy behavior. We make excuses for it. We really build our life around supporting this thing, all with the intention of saving this other person from themselves or from the situations that they create. Most often we hear co-dependency attached to substance abuse, but it could be other things in a family.

Maybe you have a sibling who refuses to work and your 70 year old mom is giving that person all of her resources and making excuses for this person and really being over compassionate with that person that could also be codependency. And for a measurement, it is when we emotionally entangle ourselves in the lives of other people within measurement, you are unable to have a separate identity. Now, of course, family is a culture, it's a cultural system, so we have certain ways of being within family systems. However, if you want to do something a little bit different,

if you're in a Meshed family, that's gonna be problematic. If everybody has to be a teacher, or everyone has to be a engineer or everyone has to go to college. There can pose a challenge when you decide to do something different because you want to because you see value in living a different type of life. Not always a negative type of life, but just different from what everyone else is doing.

And a meshed family, there is no room for anyone to be different. I have a million questions. Okay. This question I'm going to ask you right now is like maybe out of place, but I just can't resist. This has popped into my head. And so I'm going to say it. I come into a discussion, and I think maybe I'm not alone on this.

I come into a discussion on family drama with the presupposition that other people are the problem. But I started as I was listening to you speak, wondering, huh, maybe you'd be useful for all of us to take a minute and consider whether we're the source of the drama. Mm. I love that. And so much of drama free is about that, right?

It's about what are you doing in these relationships that might be contributing to certain outcomes? Sometimes other people are the creators of drama. And sometimes we are really manufacturing drama ourselves. You know, we are the people with the boundary issues and that's really hard to accept that in our relationships there can be this cause and effect dynamic that happens. So what I do matters, if I am receiving a certain reaction from something, is it possible that my delivery was off? Just that self-awareness, that evaluation of, could it be me, can be really hopeful in relationships?

How do I accept the differences of others? How do I accept when someone is not living up to my expectations of them? That's a really important thing for any type of relationship to be mindful of your role in the problems. I'm not to sound too self-congratulatory, but I'm glad actually that we're hitting this now, because I think it's going to be useful, at least for me, as we're hitting this now because I think it's gonna be useful, at least for me, as we go through this conversation, to just keep in the back of my mind and maybe in the back of the mind of anybody listening

that we're not just talking about other people being unconstructive or dramatic. To use a cliche, it takes to tango. But I do want to loop back to something else you said a few minutes ago. This is when you were talking about co-dependency. Sometimes this is referred to as enabling. You talked about people being overly compassionate. And to an audience of people that there are no shortage of Buddhists in my audience, the way we think about compassion often is like, there can't be too much.

Like you, you could never be too compassionate. However, one Buddhist teacher has coined the phrase, and this is a little rough, but I like it anyway, idiot compassion. In other words, it is, it's a good idea to be kind, but there's a kind of kindness that is stupid, that you're actually harming yourself in the process. And it brings me to one of your little sayings, which is, we cannot save people

from themselves. So I would love to hear you just respond to all of the words that I've just let fly from my lips. I love that idiot compassion. Yeah, I grew up in a family and because there was addiction, I remember my grandmother was often the rescuer and she would take whatever family member and have them come to her house and clean them up. And they would do these things like take her stuff and steal and the excuse was, well, you know, whatever happened to them in life,

or they have this addiction. And it's like, you know, how compassionate do we have to be to a person who is being abusive, to a person who is stealing, a person who is not really trying to change and you're trying to be hopeful? I think it is really helpful to be compassionate and have boundaries with people. It's really helpful to maybe see their situation but not get so caught up in their story that you have no expectation for them to be better and to do better.

expectation for them to be better and to do better. So sometimes when we are compassionate or when we love people, there is this idiot compassion. I think that happens that we're not thinking about ourselves and we're being harmed. And we are potentially creating patterns or cycles that other people are now watching and participating in. And it's just not a healthy way of existing. I believe love is kind. And I understand that with addiction and some things that people go through in life, they unbecome themselves, right?

And they have these behaviors and they do things that are uncharacteristic of them, but even with that, we should have some expectations of how we'll be treated and we really have to hold the line on that. So we're not allowing ourselves to be abused. You have thoughts on how we can walk the line between healthy compassion and idiot compassion with our family members. You know, I heard a therapist once say that you can't stop your kids from like

when kids start fighting. I wanna hit my sister and try to hit in all of this sort of stuff. What might be appropriate is to hold the swinging child's hands and say, I won't let you hit her. I won't let you hit him. Not to say, well, you know, you get to do whatever I'm going to step out of it,

but this behavior is not allowed and there has to be some intervention. So it's not continued. I think often we don't think about what that intervention can be. You know, we can't save people from themselves. People will have maybe job loss and need things from us and we have to think about, can I help? Not do I want to help? Can I help this person? Because sometimes we're bypassing even thinking about our ability to be in situations with other people. We are just thinking about this person needs it, I have to give it to them, and that's really wonderful. But then we are missing certain things because we're not able to recoup things all the time from other people who can't help themselves. So it was really important to make sure that you're taking care of before you're jumping

in to help other people. But setting that boundary, saying no, it's super uncomfortable. I can think of many experiences right now where I know I could on some level help financially, or whatever, but the opportunity cost for me would be significant. And also, I don't know if it actually in the long run would be in the best interest of the other person. You know, there's more than one way to help people.

I think sometimes we automatically assume that it has to be me, but because of my experience as a social worker, I used to do case management. I can get really creative with helping people without putting myself in the mix. You know, there are resources that are available when some people need things. Maybe it's a matter of five of us pitching in to help and not just me. So really getting creative with how we can be helpful. Sometimes it's helpful to refer people to a book to read or a resource and not always jump in to save. But it does take some self-awareness to see what am I really motivated by here? Am I

helping because it's actually in some ways the path of least resistance? Or am I really motivated by here? Am I helping because it's actually in some ways the path of least resistance? Or am I not helping because I'm actually too lazy or I don't give a shit, tracking your motivations in the midst of all of this and making the right decision in these thorny ethical quandaries that being in family relationships can produce? This is not easy stuff.

Absolutely. It takes a humongous amount of self-awareness. And that's why this book is so important. I think a lot of the key concepts, it's repeated in some ways so that you really get it. And you understand like, these are the things. This is what you need to look out for. This is something you might encounter because we're not always aware. You know, we often think that, like I said, that dysfunction is like

murder, violence, rape, and it could be like when my parents came home from work, they didn't talk to me in my siblings. They just went to their rooms. Like, isn't that emotional neglect? Like those things matter too. So we can't have this one-sided way of thinking about, okay, well, my life was great because I didn't experience this one really horrific thing. Maybe there are some other things. I don't believe in perfect families.

I believe in pretty good ones. I think some people have wonderful upbringing, but there may be some things, even in our adult relationships, because it's not about childhood all the time, even in our adult relationships that we wanna work through with our family members. Coming up, Nedra Glover,

Tuwab talks about what to remember if you choose to spend time with a family member with whom you have a difficult relationship. Things you can control in family relationships, including what topics are off limits, and why shaming people does not make them better. Coming up after this. Like the short, and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean?

How do I get the most out of my time, you're on Earth? And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast, Life is short with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions, like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in

each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs. And sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times, but if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff. Like, if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow Life is short wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to Add Free on the Amazon Music or Wondering App.

If we decide to spend time with a family member with whom we have a complicated relationship, what are the key things to remember? The purpose of the context. Sometimes the purpose is to celebrate grandma's birthday. Sometimes the purpose is to celebrate a holiday or to be just gathered with family. Or maybe you want to keep that relationship

and you want to improve it. Another way to do that is to know that your job in relationship is not to change the other person and you can improve the interaction by thinking about it differently. Sometimes we get so attached to the role of a person in our life. So it's my mother, it's my father,

and then we attach all of these expectations to that person, and it makes it really hard for us to see them as a person. Because all we see is this is my brother and brothers do this. This is my mother and mother do this. We really have to step outside of the title and get into the person. Because when we're able to do that, we're able to be in relationships better with people. That strikes me just personally as tricky because I definitely can get wrapped up in the title of, yeah, my dad's my dad. And that does create some difficulties in relating to him purely as another human being,

but by the same token, there's some nice power, some positive power to him having this title of dad as well. So again, that strikes me as tricky and nuanced. Yeah, I think of my mother's story and the things that she has shared with me. I've had a lot of wild moments like, you know, in childhood, you only know what you see. You don't know the backstory of things. So to have a parent talk to you about some of the things that they've experienced is humanizing because some of the ages that she experienced these things,

I'm like, I was 25, that never happened to me, right? 30 or whatever these things are. It's like, oh wow, like I as an adult can imagine what that experience must have been like, and it does deepen your compassion for people in a way that, you know, maybe you can conjure some forgiveness and maybe step away from resentment

because you now see them as a whole person. I'm often shocked how we can have so much compassion for TV characters. I think one of my favorite shows is Dexter. And I just, Dexter is not a wonderful human being. He's like this murderer who does it as a vigilante, but it's like, you have so much compassion for him. And yet, in real life, we don't have a lot of compassion for the people in our lives

who have these really unique and complicated stories, but we can somehow conjure it up for our friends, for strangers, for characters on TV and all of these other things. When really we need to learn to tap into that in our family relationships as well. I'm just super uncomfortable now that I know that you have more compassion for a serial killer than for me. So I don't know what I'm going to do the rest of this interview. That's a character. That's a character on TV, not in real life.

I don't know if you watched that show. I did. You know, writers these days, they do such a great job of really tapping into your emotions and they show these stories of how the person became the way that they are. And it does make you think like, oh my gosh, I see how he became a serial killer. It's like, oh my gosh, this is ridiculous. But you know, everybody has a story. And sometimes we don't know that story. But based on a person's behavior, we have to believe that there has a story. And sometimes we don't know that story, but based on a person's behavior, we have to believe that there is a story.

Agreed, agreed. I mean, this is again to invoke Buddhism. Seeing that everything, everything that's happening right now is the result of just an unfathomable sea of causes and conditions dating back to the big bang and beyond. Seeing that is the source of compassion because you recognize that there are so many stories, so many variables that went into everybody's lives. I often say, and many teachers say this too, that if you were in their shoes,

you almost certainly would be doing the exact same stuff. So again, just a note of agreement. And to get back to this discussion though, of simple actionable tactics for being with difficult family members, if we've made a decision to go to grandma's birthday, or whatever it is, how to maintain the maximal level of sanity in these situations.

You have a few other tips, so I just wanna tick them off. One is. You have a few other tips, so I just want to tick them off. One is that you have a choice in how much and for how long you interact with these people. Absolutely. There are so many choices that might be uncomfortable, but also very healthy for you. Know that you get to decide. I've talked to people who may have parents who are overbearing and they want to talk several times a day. And the adult is like, I don't want to talk to my dad three times a day.

I just maybe want to talk once. And those are difficult moments to have. And it makes sense to want something a little different than someone else. And in those relationships, it is now a time for an uncomfortable conversation to be had that the frequency is too much for you. And sometimes we don't think about it that way. Like, oh, wow, I can control the frequency.

Yeah, you control the frequency of your relationships. Some relationships, you may see whatever family member just on holidays. It's just one Thanksgiving, I see my uncle, and that's it. That's the totality of the relationship, or you could see that person once a month, but you really get to determine what that frequency is for you.

And to continue with your list here, really get to determine what that frequency is for you. And to continue with your list here, you can decide what topics are off limits. Absolutely. Sometimes, as you're being raised, there is this idea that you can't have emotional or intellectual boundaries that anything that comes up for you should be said in the family and parents should know. But as adults, we do know that there's some things you don't want to share sometimes based on who you're telling or just because you want to keep it to yourself. And that is your right to do that. You don't have

to share everything that happens to you. And you certainly don't have to share it immediately. In the book, I use the example of a sister-in-law getting upset because her brother's wife didn't say in the first trimester, hey, we're pregnant. She waited a while, and that was because the mom had several miscarriages and just didn't want to talk about it. And you have the right to do that, to share when you're ready, even when it's family. the right to do that, to share when you're ready, even when it's family. Another piece of advice you have along those lines is there may be arguments or heated dialogue or gossip going on around you with your family members, but you don't actually have to engage.

Absolutely. You can take a vow of silence. You don't have to have every conversation that's happening in the room. Sometimes you could just watch whatever's on the TV while everyone is talking. I do think that there's this need to maybe fit in, but sometimes it's okay to not fit in, especially if it's a situation that you don't want to be a part of, don't unbecome yourself to maybe fit in with other people. You have to be clear of your values and who you are.

I'm really learning that this isn't a situation for me. We've talked about compassion in this conversation, idiot compassion and healthy compassion. When we're going about the process of setting boundaries, saying to your father, I don't wanna talk three times a day, or saying to another member of your family that, you know, I'm not going to tolerate X or Y unhealthy behaviors. I think it's important for us to have compassion for ourselves and have the gumption to have these conversations. And given

that what we've talked about, that everybody's got a story, there's sort of an unknowable number of causes and conditions feeding into everybody's behavior at this moment, don't we also have to have compassion for the other person as we go about setting these boundaries? Absolutely. We can set boundaries with kindness and compassion. The challenge with that is we think that when we say it kindly, the other person is supposed to love it because we were gentle.

And sometimes that's not the case. Again, the name of my book is drama free. Sometimes it's not you bringing the drama is the other person. So you can be as kind as possible. And the other person has an entitlement to their reaction. Their reaction may be a bit chaotic. It might be a bit confrontational. It might be a bit aggressive, but it doesn't mean that your delivery was wrong. Here's another Nedra Glover to-Wav expression that I like that I think is relevant to what we're talking about right now, which is how to deliver a message to somebody in your family about what you are and are not willing to accept.

Here's your expression that I'm going to repeat back to you and see if I can get you to hold forth on. Shaming people doesn't make them better. I've seen shame used as a change tactic far too often. If I highlight what the disruption is, this person will get better. When you think of weight sometimes, if I tell them how I feel about their diet or what I think about how their body looks, they'll want to lose the weight or they'll want to gain weight. And it's like, I don't think it works like that. I think what people say can be triggering and make you want to engage in those behaviors. You're trying to save the person from when you're shaming them around what they do or don't do.

How they may parent their children. You may not agree with it. There may be some things that they need to do differently, but shaming them isn't necessarily going to make them a better parent. Shaming someone isn't going to change their lifestyle. And it's, frankly, it's mean, it's unnecessary. I mean, sometimes shaming is saying,

you should just be like me. It's just saying that I disagree, and I'm gonna constantly tell you about it. It's not always nice. So it matters if what you're trying to change is like a dangerous behavior where the person is like harming themselves or harming someone else.

But lots of times with shaming within families, it's around a person's lifestyle choices that are not harmful, that are not dangerous to anyone else. It's just a preference. You know, I can't imagine someone trying to change my eating style to their eating style because theirs is better than mine. Like, don't we all have choice and preferences? So it's really hard to try to use that as a change tactic. And I think often it is a mean way to get people to do what you want. What's the better way? Show up with love and maybe talk to them about what's happening. I have found that asking questions is much better than going in with your story of what you see.

Because people know, people know what's going on with their lives. Like, you know, if you're concerned about how someone is parenting their children, maybe starting with how are you feeling about parenting? And they may surprise you with their answers and say, oh my gosh, it's so overwhelming when I get off work, I have to do these things. And that creates the conversation. And that can guide whatever support or resource that you can offer for them. It may not be you showing up and saying, you're a terrible parent. That's not anything that a person responds to positively.

We become defensive when people come in with the accusation of this is what I see and this is the way it is. People are more receptive when you're willing to have a conversation of concern with them because either way you're saying I care and I care needs to be a care-fantation, not a confrontation. So I want to talk to you about what you see going on from your perspective. Now sometimes people are in denial and they won't see anything. I've had those conversations with people too where you might mention, hey, you seem a bit overwhelmed.

Is there anything you'd like to talk about? No, no, I'm fine. Okay, but I don't think you leave it there. I think you're consistent in your pursuit of, hey, I hear you saying you're fine, but I've noticed that you're a little snappy sometimes when I say certain things. Is that something that you've noticed too? So again, those questions, I think, can be very informative and it can give the person to speak about what's happening

from their perspective. Because sometimes what I think is going on isn't actually what's happening with people. It's just my experience of it. I've gotten a lot of interesting insight from the person telling me directly what their story is. I'm just to highlight that point because I think it's key. And this goes back to the early part of this conversation. We might be telling ourselves a story about X, Y, and Z family members who are in our view difficult, but to invoke Buddhism again. One of the things that we Buddhists talk about is not being attached to your views, not siding with yourself automatically and reflexively, not assuming that your stories are correct. And that seems like a really important tool to bring to bear here as we navigate a family life, which is almost by definition difficult. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's really a lot of it is stepping outside of your story. We do get attached to a narrative. I see it so often where people are like, my mother is emotionally unavailable. My mother is this, my father is that, my siblings are this. And it's like, that's the only thing we can see about that person. We can't think about the times when they did other things that maybe don't support that narrative because we're only willing to see the one thing about them or we are only willing to chase that one narrative and not incorporate any other information or even talk to them about maybe what happened

from their perspective. There's another really fascinating psychological dynamic that you identify in the book. You say that being a victim might feel better than accepting control sometimes. Why is that? Why would it feel better to stay the victim? And if that's the case, how do you break out of that dynamic? People stay the victim sometimes because you don't have to do anything.

Everything is being done to you. Your locus of control is outside of yourself. If you go to work in the nick of time every day, you're like, oh my gosh, it's always traffic. This is terrible. I really hate this. These people drive crazy. It makes it really about other people instead of,

maybe I need to leave the house 10 minutes earlier. Maybe I need to leave the house 15 minutes earlier. You know, there's a lot of power that we can have in situations that we choose not to exercise because making the other person, the bad guy just feels better. It feels like we're less in control. We have left to do. There are more things happening to us than through us. And I happen to believe that there is some power. We have particular in our relationships and definitely in our lives that we can control.

When you think of, oh my gosh, this person is calling me too much. I think about all of the features that are now available on phones. You have do not disturb. You have the blocking. You can also say to the person, there's so many things we could do other than saying,

this person is controlling who I am in this moment. When do you just straight up end a relationship? Mm-hmm. You know, in the book, I did not give a clear definition of what things would be done for you to say, okay, I'm out of here because I think it's up for interpretation. It's really up for emotional and mental capacity. And for a person to decide what I was really clear about is, I think sexual abuse is very

dangerous, particularly when there is an in-suff situation or continuing a relationship with the abusers sometimes. I've seen a lot of emotional issues there and really a lot of challenges with the person being able to move forward if they're sealed in that relationship. Outside of that, I really think it's based on the situation and so many situations are unique. For instance, if you had a parent who was physically abusive to you when you were a child and as an adult, they're like, I'm so sorry, I was really stressed, I want to be a better person to you now. Do you want to end that relationship because they abused you when you were a child

or do you want to continue with it? I think that is something for the person to decide. If you have a mother-in-law who's constantly budding into your marriage and trying to control dynamics there, do you want to cut your mother-in-law off or is that something that maybe you feel the need to just have some really firm boundaries around? I think it's really difficult and I try not to judge

when people stay and when they decide to leave even if there is a sexual abuse situation because people stand those relationships too. So I don't want to say like, oh, you need to get out of there because I don't know why you're staying. Often we stay because we love the person. We want the situation to get better. We have some hope around the situation getting better or it's familiar. We do feel some sense of connection there. So it's really hard for me not being in a situation

to say this is a relationship that you need to leave. Now, clinically, I have seen people struggle for years and some very unhealthy, damaging relationships, and even steal, I just have to watch. Some of them never get to the point of saying, I want to be done with this relationship with my sister, I want to be done with this relationship with my father. They stay in them. And then there are others who say, I'm done with this relationship. And so, you know, there's really no one way to say that this is a situation that definitely people need to get out of because it has so much to do with your emotional and mental

capacity to carry the weight of not having that relationship. Another point you make in the book is that this isn't necessarily a clear binary and on an off switch that there are flavors of a strangement. Yeah, I talked about two types of a strangement. So there is physical a strangement where you completely remove the person from your life, you have no contact with them. And then there's emotional a strangement, which I think is more common, right? Like lots of people don't show up as themselves

in their family. They keep those emotional pieces of who they are to themselves, maybe they're a friend group or with few family members. And that is also a way of protecting yourself but also being able to stay in the family relationship. Because again, there is no one way to do it. And I think we like to look at things as like, this is right, this is wrong. If a person does this, you should definitely do that. And things are not that

black and white. There's a lot of gray. And there is a lot of room to try to understand someone's situation and not necessarily try to judge it or tell them what they need to do in that situation. A great, and there are cultural complexities here too. It may be easier for a fourth generation, European American, like me, just a regular old white person who comes from an individualistic culture. And I'm talking in generalizations here, so please bear with me. But it might be easier for somebody from my culture to execute an astrangement that it is for people from other cultures.

And I would imagine that's important to keep in mind. Yeah, I think there are some cultural bonds that are more firm than others. I think the more we become assimilated into American culture, the more we lose that culture that we have. And I think a part of the American culture is like, every man for himself and that sort of thing.

But there are lots of cultures where it is like, family is everything and how dare you cut your mob off or this is your obligation to do this thing. And some people welcome that obligation and that's wonderful, right? And then there are others who may want to shift the culture, you know, within themselves, within their duplier family a bit. And so I do think it's challenging to again say that this is the only way for all people because it does, like you mentioned, it depends on your culture sometimes, like how you might handle an issue within the family.

It does depend on if you are here and you only have five family members, you know, if I live in a different state and I only have two family members there, do I wanna be on the out? Where am I gonna go for the holidays? So those are things that we sometimes have to think about when we hear people

talking about the difficulties in their relationship that there are many factors happening. Yeah, lots of situations top level. I would be like, oh yeah, get out of there. That's many things. I mean, not even just family things, just lots of stuff. I just had one way of thinking about it. If I didn't realize that many things are complex and there's a lot of nuance and there's a lot of great area in what we experience in relationships with other people. Coming up, Nedra talks about toxic forgiveness, myths about forgiveness. And we do a lightning round of various hypothetical family drama conundrums. Keep it here.

In that last answer you talked about some hypothetical where you've only got five family members and it would be tricky to make change because where am I gonna go for the holidays. That does bring me to another thing that you talk about in the book, which is that for many people it can be extremely helpful to create a family of choice as an adult. Absolutely. Choosing who you see as family, I think of all of the relationships with friends that have felt like family

relationships. I would say as far back as like middle school, I had some very close relationships with friends in high school and even steal where it just feels like, you know, these are the people I would want to stand up at a wedding and say something about me. This is who I would want to, you know, like all of these important moments,

I can't imagine experiencing them without the chosen family because it gives you the opportunity to not only be yourself, but to also curate relationships based on what you need. Often in families, we just get whatever we get. So it doesn't necessarily mean that you have anything in common with the people in your family. It doesn't mean that you

have the same views and all sorts of things. But when you're choosing people, that's where you get to pick, like who you are from the folks you work with, from the folks you see at the gym or at whatever religious service that you go to, you get the pick, the people who same aligned versus in your family. Sometimes it's like, are these my people? It's like I don't really feel like these are my people. We sometimes have that in families and sometimes we need to curate it outside of family. Let me ask you about a term you used in the book toxic forgiveness. What is that? Toxic forgiveness is letting it go but still being really bothered by it, forgiving to keep up appearances, but actually being bothered by it, I think toxic forgiveness leads to a lot of passive aggressive behaviors and relationships.

We'll tell someone we're over it or we don't even tell the person that. We just, we don't get over it. We don't talk about it, but it still really bothers you. You know, I've talked to people and they have these stories about folks that's like 10 years old that the person probably doesn't even know is being placed against them. You know, 10 years later, like, you know, there was this one time they didn't come to my graduation and I can't believe they did that. And I'm going to have Christmas dinner with them. So here's this like, I'm over it, but I can't stop talking about it. So there is this idea that in relationships when bad things happen sometimes that we just have to get over it and move on and there's not conversations about the thing that happened.

There's not anything that's done differently. There's no sort of remorse. There's no repairing. And that can be very unhealthy for us. What are the common misunderstandings about forgiveness? That we have to forgive and forget. That's the saying, right? Like forgive and forget.

When you forgive someone, you forget about it. And the truth is we don't forget about it. Some offenses live with us. Hopefully, it's not controlling how we feel. But sometimes there's no forgetting. There is this remembering that occurs, and that's okay. Maybe if we're still in a relationship, we don't take it out on the person, but maybe it's just in our mind that, wow, they did do this. That's okay. Also, there's this idea that you can't talk about it anymore. So if you have an issue with someone

and you've brought it up one time, you can never say it again, that again is not true. There are times where you might want to revisit the conversation that is still bothering you because it's sometimes where bothered long-term. And that's really hard to admit that I'm still not over this. That I really had a problem with this. But that's okay.

And it doesn't mean that you need to do anything differently. It's just something to accept. I think another thing about forgiveness is when we forgive people, there is this assume allowing them back into our lives. We can forgive people and not continue in the relationship. The offense couldn't be so egregious, damaging, or just something we don't want to deal with any further

that we choose to sever ties in the relationship, become a strange, cut them off, whatever you want to call it. And we don't have to forgive people and remain in those relationships with them. The final third of the book is about growth. Is your argument that, yeah, family drama is real, perhaps unavoidable, and that it can be an opportunity for us to become better humans? That's a wonderful way to look at it. It is an opportunity for us to build our communication skills, confront some things that we may see as difficult. It's our opportunity for us to correct things and future generations. It's an opportunity

for us to heal, really. I think when you think about all of the things that we experience in life, it's not like we can live this life of escaping. When people get on your nerves and relationships, you can really love them and stay on those relationships. And it's not about, I'm going to retreat to the mountains. It's like, you need to have a conversation with this person because this thing is really bothering you. So it was really tough to not have a place

for building skills when you want to continue and relationships with people. But I think the biggest thing from the third part of the book is, what can you do in your relationships is not always on other people to do the work that they're unwilling to do. It's on us to figure out, I'm making a choice to be in this relationship. If I'm making a choice to be in this relationship, how do I want to show up?

I want to be a healthy parent. What will that look like in parenting my children? There are things that I can do and can't do. Like that defines what it means to be in that relationship. So lots of times we have to think about the bigger picture. What we're hoping to achieve with this connection, not just, oh, this person gets on my nerves. Like, you know, things bother us.

But if we're aware of our intention in relationships and aware of what we hope to achieve with others, it makes it so much easier to show up and to practice new skills. So I hear two things that you just said there, and they're very much related. One is, yes, family drama is a part of life, and we can look at it as a way to sharpen our skills of doing life better because whether we're gonna stay in relationship with our unchosen family or we're gonna be in relationships with a chosen family,

relationships are hard no matter what, and you have to develop what psychologists call social fitness, and so for better or worse, your family can be a place to sharpen that particular blade. And the second thing is to remind everybody that we have power, whether we might be casting ourselves in the role of victim, but even that is a choice. And if we're going to stay in these relationships, we need to think very intentionally about how we're going to stay in it and stay sane. Am I summing up those two points with some degree of fidelity?

Yes, I think you just wrote a section of the book for when I update the book. There will be no charge for that. Speaking of the book as it currently exists, there's a very cool section where you do these case studies. And so I thought if you're up for it, a little lightning round here, where you roll out some hypothetical, maybe they're not even hypothetical scenarios, maybe they're scenarios from your practice, and then you talk about how to deal with them.

One of them is, how do I get my mom to see a therapist? Mm. When you want someone to see a therapist is always really helpful to phrase it appropriately. Sometimes when we want people to see a therapist we'll say things like you need therapy and we're not saying it in the nicest tone at the appropriate time. It's just like you need therapy and most people without the experience of going to therapy or some form or knowledge to therapy or some form or knowledge, people think that therapy is for folks who have fairly severe problems. And when someone is being introduced to the concept of therapy, it's more helpful to talk about what you're seeing and how you would like them to have some support.

And then mention the therapy. I understand that you're really having a struggle to be sober and I love and care for you and I want the best for you. I'm so concerned about your health. Have you thought about maybe talking to a therapist to give the support you need? Once you offer a person a resource,

know that they don't have to use it. Using the resource is optional. You can tell people about therapy, but you cannot make them go. Here's another case study. This one's a little bit tougher. Dad was abusive to me. Do I let him near my kids? Mm. Always tricky, right? Because you don't want to repeat patterns. I would say when a person has not acknowledged what they've done or they don't see an issue with it, it can be a tricky thing to allow that person around your children to expect anything different. What I've seen is, you know,

sometimes things repeat when they aren't processed and addressed. There is an example in the book where I talk about my first internship, which was at a runaway shelter for teenagers. And I would have family therapy with the teens. There was a one incident where a girl was being molested by her uncle. And when it came up in the therapy session, the mom, her body just, her body language just changed.

And I was like, oh my gosh, and it just dawned on me. And I say, have you had this experience with your brother? And she said, yes, I thought he was different. And that really was just like, oh my gosh, like we sometimes assume because time has moved on that the person has changed. But sometimes these things are a part of how they think about situations.

So it's really beneficial for us to have the conversation. If you want your father to see your children, you have to have a conversation around, hey, you abuse me, you cannot use my children, or maybe not let your father see your kids, or figure out a way to have some supervised visitation. There are, you know, multiple things you can do, but I would say safety first. Final case study, it's a little bit lighter. My in-laws are phony. Do I have to maintain a relationship with them?

In-law relationships are tough. So here, we're not always. Hopefully they're wonderful. But I think when they are tough, the challenge is that we have this expectation that things have to go well, the mother-in-law, the mother-in-law, the sister-in-law, the brother-in-law, there are gonna be these great people who just receive you. And that can sometimes not be the case.

And when that is the case, again, you have to go back to seeing the person as they are and saying, the type of relationship I can have with this person is a cordial one not a close one. And in that case is really helpful to do what you can in that relationship that might be holidays that might be Not necessarily speaking to your in-laws by phone but allowing your partner to manage that relationship with their family. So there are your partner to manage that relationship with their family. So there are, again, on a sortment of things that can be done in that situation, there is no one way to show up, but just know that you can have a type of relationship with your in-laws without having a close relationship with your in-laws. We actually have time for one more.

My stepdaughter is a liar, but my husband won't discipline her. What do I do? Mm. And step parenting relationships is really important that you first build a relationship with the child but for issuing discipline.

Think of it as a person showing up in your life and telling you what to do. It's just weird, right? Like usually there is some relationship and then we'll listen to a person. You don't wanna be walking down a street and then a stranger tells you stuff. It's like you listen to the people you have a relationship with.

So if you have an issue with the child, it might be helpful to talk to your partner about it also with lying, which is very common for not just kids to do, but humans in general to do. It's important to uncover what's under that behavior, what need is this person trying to have met, and also to develop some compassion and not look at it as she is a liar as much as she told a lie about this thing, because quantifying someone as a liar, it gives a whole being vibe,

like your whole being is lie. And it's really not. It's like, you know, you tell us some foods here and there. Maybe we all do to some extent, or maybe many of us do to some extent, but it doesn't mean you're a completely bad person. I would be more interested in what's under that behavior and how can we help manage her issues around honesty. You're such a wizard at this stuff. It's fun to listen to you work. As we wheel toward the end of our time together, let me ask you, what did I fail to ask you? Hmm, what did you fail to ask me? I feel like your questions were so on point. The only thing I can really think of is maybe what people hope to get from the book.

Sure. What do you want people to get from the book? I want people to feel more connected and empowered when you grow up with some level of dysfunction in your family, when you as an adult have some level of dysfunction in your family, it can often feel like you are alone on an island because not many people talk about it. There's not many people in elementary school going, hey, my dad's an alcoholic too.

You know, everybody's coloring and doing their own thing. There's not many people at work saying, these are my issues, please help me. And so there are a lot of people who have these issues. And that's what I love about Instagram sometimes. I look at the comments and when you see people going through these dysfunctional stories and it's like 100 people with the same story, it's like,

wow, and they're all saying, like, I didn't know other people dealt with this. I didn't know other people dealt with this. It feels really good to not be alone. And so hopefully in reading some of the case studies in my book, you feel more connected by understanding that these things happen to people that you are not the only person with unhealthy dynamics within your family.

And in power, you know, I want people to feel like they can do something about it, that it's not always about, I need to find a whole new family, someone please adopt me. It's what can be repair, what needs to be maybe discarded, what things need to be reviewed, what do you need to unlearn,

what can you do differently? There are options. Nedger's new book is called Drama Free, a Guide to Man unhealthy family relationships. She also has a huge Instagram account more than 1.5 million followers. Nedger, are there other resources you've put out into the world that you want to let people know about? Yes, I have another book called Set Boundaries, Fine Peace, and I have a workbook called The Set Boundaries Workbook. And on my website, I have some free resources for people to check out.

I have some quizzes around boundaries and relationships and dysfunctional families. Nedra was on this show not too long ago talking about that book. Set Boundaries find peace. So we'll put a link to that prior encounter in the show notes to this episode. In the meantime, Nedra Glover to Wob always a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much for making time. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Thanks again to Nedra Glover to Wob. Thank you as well to everybody who worked so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by DJ Cashmere, Gabrielle Sacraman, Justin Davie, and Lauren Smith.

Our supervising producer is Marissa Schneiderman, Kimmy Regler is our managing producer, and we get scoring in mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you back here on Friday for a bonus, and I will be back here next week for the second half of our Valentine's Day Counter-Programming series,

which will include an episode on Heartbreak. Hey, hey Prime members! You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. survey at Wondery.com slash survey.