Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 56: George Stephanopoulos, ABC News Chief Anchor

Episode Date: January 18, 2017

George Stephanopoulos, the co-anchor of "Good Morning America" and the host of ABC News' Sunday morning political affairs show, "This Week," first started practicing meditation in the '90s when he was serving as a senior advisor in the Clinton administration. Stephanopoulos talks about how Transcendental Meditation has helped him deal with anxiety over the years and offers his thoughts on Donald Trump's upcoming inauguration. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. The best way I can say it feels like when it's working well. It almost feels like there's a little bit more of a buffer between. Even as I'm more present on things that want to be present on, there's more of a buffer

between me and the things that are annoying. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Okay, it's a special edition of the 10% happier podcast. We recorded this just yesterday, so we're posting it on a Wednesday, recorded it on a Tuesday, and we're posting it on a Wednesday recorded on a Tuesday and we're doing it on such a short timeline because the guest is George Stephanopoulos, who is the co-anchor of Good Morning America and the anchor of this week with George Stephanopoulos,

which is starting to gather. He's a pretty busy dude and he's going to be anchoring our inauguration coverage on ABC News all day on Friday. So we want to talk to him about inauguration coverage, what it's like to do that, and not for nothing. He's a daily, a twice daily, a meditator. So his experience with meditation is fascinating. His forecasts as we head into what is going to be for sure, an extremely interesting four years will be of high interest

to everybody, I think. So here you are. Here's George Stefanopples. How you doing? Are we on the air? We're on the air. That's fun. We're on the internets. It's a gentle, gentle entrance.

Yes, it's not like being in a studio with like a red light and everything goes crazy. Yes, I should explain to everybody what we're doing. This is a special edition for innumerable reasons. I'm honored. Because you're on, that's one reason why it's special. And also we're doing it live on Facebook. So, and on ABCNews.com. I should say for the like 0.01% of humanity who doesn't know who are, you've been a household name since the 90s. And I've been honored to call you a colleague since 2000 when I joined and you were here since 98. I came in 97. 97.

I get 20 years, I'm 20 years on an inauguration day. Wow, really. I'm glad to hear that. The first day was the inauguration of Brooklyn's second term. Interesting. Yeah. And so you are also, just so everybody knows, the chief anchor here at ABC News, which I guess makes you my boss on some level.

Hardly. Certainly, certainly somebody I look up to for sure and who's been a great advisor anchor here at ABC News which I guess makes you my boss on some level and Certainly certainly somebody I look up to for sure and who's been a great advisor to me at many points in my career and You're a meditator. So let's start with that. This is this is a this is a podcast a stencil Be about meditation or though in this in this case I think we're gonna talk about a lot of stuff that you're jumping off point. Yes exactly They always sort of gets industry and serious. So how did you start meditating? I had some friends who've been, well, I should take, it's a longer story than that.

Go for it. I first thought about it, got into it back when I was in the Clinton White House. So this was back in the early 1990s. And I had some friends who were deep believers in it, the Transcendental Meditation TM. I had some friends who were deep believers in it, the Transcendental Meditation TM. And now I was at the time, at first, even though I trusted these friends,

quite reluctant because my one hook in with TM was through this university they have out in Iowa. Right, you must have run across it as a campaign. And at the time, John Hagelin, who's a brilliant man, I was I think thinking about running for president, maybe in 1996. And I ended up having some sort of meeting. And, you know, wait, John Hagelin, he's the head of that university. Okay, got you. Which is the Maharishi University. Yeah, I can't not know the exact name. it and he's a physicist

But they had some ideas about how like if everybody is meditating at the same time we'd have world peace Yes, yes a little out there. Yeah um and So I had some questions based on that but I did try and a friend gave me a mantra and taught me it just didn't take and I don't know it's about. My life at the time or my state of mind at the time, my spirit at the time, I couldn't keep it going. Can I just ask you, were your friends who were

into TM, Transadental Meditation, were they political folks, Hollywood folks, just personal life? The person is, the one person who was really, dude, really taught me was kind of, it was from California, but a political type, but it just a, a holy different kind of cat. I mean, just a touch.

Okay. Interesting, lovely man. And this time around, I had, this was now, I guess, about five years ago. I'm friends with Jerry Seinfeld, who's been, I guess, meditating since he's 17. Really? Yeah. A long, long, long time. And we were talking about it, and we were just having a conversation,

and he convinced me to try again. And... Were you stressed at that point in your life, was there something going on? You know, I was exhausted. I had been, I was about Three years into GMA anchoring Still doing this week many many many Sundays two young girls and anybody who's done GMA everybody every day will tell you you never really get used to the schedule Even though like even if you're a morning person like me

It's a physically grueling job. You just, for a million reasons, it's hard to get more than five hours sleep at night, five or six, generally. Six is good, six is fantastic. And part of the, you know, well, we were talking about part of the way and I read it about it at the time and met with, they had a day of the Lynch Foundation

Bob Roth who's just an amazing teacher and amazing man. And he helped convince me that it would just take all the metaphysics out of it and just focus on the health and stress benefits. And I thought about that and tried it and spent my four hours with Bob over four days and having misaday since. Okay, so can you, for the uninitiated, what is transadental meditation? How does it work? What it is is you are given a mantra and...

There's a word you repeat to yourself silently. A sound is what they call it. It's a sound. You repeat to yourself silently and simply try to focus on that mantra for 20 minutes twice a day. What I think ends up working, and actually I can't explain why it works. All I can tell you is that I was surprised, I was skeptical, and from the moment I understood the practice, and it doesn't take long to learn. I could feel the benefits.

Now what it is is you focus on the set. Now everybody says, oh, I can't. First of all, what are the objections? I don't have 20 minutes a day. 40 minutes a day. 40 minutes a day. I don't have 20 minutes twice a day. My schedule's too crazy.

And I can't get these thoughts out of my head. My mind is always racing. No matter how much I try to focus on the mantra I think the genius for me at least of this practice is that the first tenet is to accept the fact that your mind is always gonna be racing and When it happens you accept it and move on and just try to bring your mind Back back to the mantra what I can tell you what it feels like when it's happening is a combination of dreaming, sleeping, resting, clarity, all at the same time.

To varying degrees at different times, again, one of the other things that Bob especially taught me is that even on days when it doesn't feel like you're getting much out of the meditation, something is happening. And, you know, I guess the analogy he uses even whenever, even if you only go, put your toes in the water, you're going to get a little bit wet. So any day that doesn't feel perfect, you don't stress about that. Either what I found is that the practice, the discipline, is something I end up looking forward to for that twice a day. And in my mind and in my life, the taking the 40 minutes out of my day ends up, it feels like to me,

like it's adding four hours to my day. How is that? Because of the rest I feel, how much more rest that I feel after doing it, the sort of confidence I feel coming out of it, the groundedness. I have to, this is just an aside, but something made you relate to as a broadcaster, I find both on GMA, especially when I have to do special events like the inaugural coming up or any kind of breaking news, so much of what you have to do is sort of just be present in the moment to what is actually happening and be clear about that and try to communicate that.

I find it much easier to be at peace with where I am and open and very present without having my thoughts get in the way of all that because of the practice of meditation. It almost feels like you get plugged back into that twice a day. Um, can I just elaborate on that second? Because I really do relate to that. And I think it's as important not only for broadcasters, but obviously life. But yes, you are. This is an exercise, this is a focusing exercise.

Now, I do a different kind of meditation. You do transcendental meditation. I do mindfulness or Buddhist meditation, however you want to describe it. But they're both training the mind for very similar things. And really, you've got this mantra, this sound, you're repeating to yourself, and then when you get lost, you start again. And in mindfulness, it's just you're feeling what the breath feels like when it comes in and goes out.

And when you get lost, you start again. What that trains you to do is to be awake for your actual life and to break out of this fog of rumination and projection in which most of us operate all the time and autopilot And so when you're broadcasting live It's very helpful to actually be paying attention to what's happening right now because then your reactions to your co-ecors are more spontaneous Your reaction to the news of the world is more genuine and spontaneous as opposed to thinking ten moves ahead Which is what I was always is what I was always doing. What I was always doing my whole life as well,

and at varying times in my life, I struggled more with anxiety, and this has certainly helped. With that, a very particular thing as well on this, again, going back to the sleep part of this. For many years, I was exacerbated at times of the GMA, it was worse in the White House, but exacerbated at times on GMA.

I had the kind of insomnia where I could fall asleep fine, but I would wake up constantly during the night, worried about how much time I had left to sleep. And the beauty for me of TM and doing it, I do it first thing when I wake up in the morning. Which is at what time? 230. Wow. But I am getting up at 230 knowing I'm going to get better quality rest in the last hour of my sleep.

I mean, I just, or, I've convinced myself with that and I do believe it's true. So it's like a bonus. So you wake up and you're excited to wake up? Well, most excited to wake up, so I can go get some rest. I can't. Yes, absolutely. Well, I mean, that's nice when your eyes don't pop open and you're... And you're not panicking. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. So, I'm really surprised to hear you say, just because we've worked together for a long time, you said that you dealt with some anxiety in parts of your life. I was unaware of that and I would never have guessed that based on just my observation of you. You seem very sort of focused and confident. Well, that's the trick. My mother has expression. My mother has this expression up in her wall that says the most important thing about acting

is sincerity. You can make that you You got it made. So maybe that's what's going on. No, but also I think I think I have, you know, I don't want to tempt the fates here. I think in some ways I've grown out of it a little bit. I think it's always part of you and some of it is physical, genetic, but I've learned more about it, learned how to deal with it, and the meditation helps a lot. So you do the first one at 2.30 in the morning, once the second one you do.

Second one is I have kind of a weird day. I work from about 3.30, 3.30, 3.30, 3.30, to about 9.15. And then I take a break, I go home, I work out, and I generally meditate after that before what is sort of the second part of my day, which is where I do more of my other duties here at ABC work on my Sunday show, that kind of thing. That's a long day, every day, and then you work a lot of Sundays too. Yeah, but I'm home for dinner every night. And I have a fair amount of freedom with how I structure my day.

And every day is a little bit different, but, you know, most afternoons, unless something breaks, or unless we're going to a thing like the nag ruler, I end up having a lot of meetings dealing with that. When I, when I'm working, it's mostly reading things and talking to people about things that I care about, and I'm interested in. So I guess that's a blessing that that's my job. Absolutely, absolutely, no question about it. So what would you say other than sort of being a little bit more to use an annoying cliche present?

More or more patient? Yeah, okay, so what about that? Yeah, definitely that. Patient in what way? Like with your kids, you're... Definitely that, and the best way I can say it,, you're... I'm definitely that. And the best way I can say it, it feels like when it's working well. And that's a nobody's perfect moment, it's like anybody else.

It almost feels like there's a little bit more of a buffer between, even as I'm more present on things I want to be present on, there's more of a buffer between me and the things that are annoying in the world. And I can sort of take a beat before they either, maybe not before they affect me, because everything affects you, but before I react to it. So yeah, there's a cliche that I hate cliches, but I love this one, which is that meditation teaches you

how to respond instead of react. Oh, I didn't know. That's a great way of putting it. It's an amazing way to put it. And that, to me, is the cell. When I evangelized for meditation all the time, that's the value add for a normal life, which is that most of us are yanked around by this ego, this voice in our head.

And we are eating when we're not hungry, or we're losing our temper when it's unwise, or checking our email in the middle of conversations with our kids or whatever. And this is what helps you meditation. This training helps you not do that some percentage of the time. I think that's right.

And there's something I guess also just about, I guess it's something about the discipline, the practice that reminds you you are in control of your life, that you can make the choice for how you're going to respond as opposed to reactive things that are happening around you. Absolutely. That's an incredibly powerful thing. The other powerful thing is that I think most of us think of happiness as contingent upon exogenous factors.

You know, your work life, your home life, childhood, all of which are super important, but in fact, actually happiness is a skill. And that's what the science around meditation is showing us, that you can work your mind the way you can work your body in the gym. It's not gonna work all the time. I can't make myself into Kobe Bryant,

but I can make myself the fittest version of me that is available and the same thing is true with your head. And the ceiling is much higher. You know, I mean, the mind is not subject to as many sort of gravitational forces in the body. No, I mean, it goes back to what Aristotle, you know, touched on virtuous habits, make a difference by practicing virtuous habits, you may become virtuous. Absolutely. Fake it till you make it. I mean, and I actually, you know, touch the virtuous habits, make a difference by practicing virtuous habits, you may become virtuous. Absolutely, fake it till you make it. I mean, and I actually, you know,

or there's a quote that a podcast listeners will know because I can use it all the time, which is the, it's attributed to Abraham, like him, but I'm not sure it's true that he said it, which is, when I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion. And that is a game changing proposition.

And what meditation allows you to do is to see more clearly how bad it feels when you're in it i think that's right that's right so we've got a paper hamlin and that's a good second second and our girl best speech in american history uh... but the first inaugural uh... includes the phrase better angels. And the second one is the,

with Malice. Yes, yes. The Mystic Quartz of Memory would Malice toward none and charity toward all. If Terry Moran is here, we're here. He'd be able to recite the whole thing for us. This is Amy C. Terry Moran, who was a genius.

So they're both pretty great speeches. I'm not sure I would pick one over the other. No, but they're both up there. I mean, I think, and they're short. Yeah. I mean, I think... And they're short. Yeah. I mean, is it the second in articles, especially short? Yeah, it's pretty short.

Like, maybe less than a page. It's less than a page. I was reading it last night because it came up in the briefing book that you and I are both reading it. They're prepared for the inauguration. It's like seven or eight paragraphs. Yeah. And we'll see if how much beyond that Donald Trump goes. Although you never

know, I mean, he's never given a short speech. His acceptance speech was quite long. He's his most gracious speeches have been after victories. We'll see if that happens on on on Friday. But I mean, everything else about this says that this is going to be an inaugural unlike any we've ever seen before because it's coming after a campaign unlike anything we've ever seen before. And likely a presidency unlike any we've ever seen before. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on page six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellasai. And I'm Sydney Battle. And we're the host of Wonder E's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where

each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud. From the build-up, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Brittany and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Brittany's fans form the free Brittany movement dedicated to fring her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling

parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Brittany. Follow Disenthal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wonder App. How has this campaign been for you in terms of stress levels and what do project going forward? And when I say you, I mean you and journalists like you who are a tip of the severe dealing with the players? Well, I thought a lot about that. I mean, just about everybody I was surprised by the result. I think that looking back, I think

we, it's forced us all to re-evaluate how we do our jobs. I think this is a particular challenge. And it was in some ways, particularly frustrating in some ways, because I think I interviewed the president-elect something like 48, 49 times over the course of the campaign, including on his first day. And he's clearly skilled at communications in some ways. But it was also, frankly, a challenge in that the kinds of, I believe, like, and only speak for myself, that all through that,

I was pretty vigilant about, you know, pressing him when he was saying something that was at odds with the facts, when he was saying something untrue, trying to clarify for the audience, press him for details on what his plans were, question him about some of his more cruel and outrageous statements and actions. Press him, as we would any politician have, with any politician, on contradictions between things he's saying now and things he may have done in the past and

you know one of the things we saw is that If someone is determined sort of bull through that They can have some fair amount of success doing that. I think you know, so that forces us to sort of reevaluate How he do our jobs the conventional ways we cover campaigns, I think in some ways, failed the process. What do you think we need to change? How do we change, I guess? I think first off, it just takes more time.

We're sort of constrained on our broadcast, but it takes more time to, if you're not going to get satisfactory answers, or it takes more time to show why you're not getting them, or it takes more time to clarify what is actually happening and it tees out what the effects might be on people who are watching. I think it means sometimes being willing to step outside of this, again, convention of that balance journalism always means simply putting up one voice from one side and one voice from another and letting people make up their own minds. Because sometimes they're objective facts. They're objective, yeah. Often.

Climate change, for example. Yeah, there are, there is... And we have to be willing to step in and say this is actually a fact. Yes. Even though we're facing a real challenge in that more and more... People don't care. People don't care or don't believe it. Yes. They don't believe us. They don't trust us. No, they don't trust us. And then you're living in a world where you, anyone can simply find a way to, you know, sort of, fair it out the facts that bolster what they already believe, and most people tend to do it. And even if that is intruders, it's not going

to make, it's not going to mean that us presenting what we consider even I just fell into it right there. Well, we consider the facts is going to be persuasive. No, there are actually, there are many issues where there are facts, not every single one, but there are many issues where you can just say this is factual, this is actually happening, and we should be willing to stand up and say that. But so in some ways, this seems to be like our only option is to play our game. You know, like we... Play it better. Yeah, absolutely. play our game. You know, like we...

Play it better. Yeah, absolutely. Up our game, but play it. We can't change society. We can't change the fact that we may be living in a post-fact era. All we can do is report the facts as evenly as we possibly can. And sort of say, at one level the rest is not our business. That's what we have to do.

But we will also be willing to take some of the blowback that isn't ever going to come with that as well. And that's what I was getting at before when I asked about how this campaign was for you and how you think the next four years will be for you. Do you take a lot of blowback and is that stressful for you? You know, you said it at the beginning and I've been a public figure now for,

unfortunately, going a long time, probably. 92. Yeah, 92, really, 91.92. So that's 25, 26 years. I stopped paying attention to not all of it. I'm human being. I hit sometimes when it hits a huge volume, you know it. But I mostly, I filter out almost all of that every single day. I don't,

I don't read Twitter, I don't read comments, I don't, I'm not on social media, I'm not on, I'm not on Facebook right now, I'm not on Facebook. I kind of do my job, live my life. And you know, I obviously, there are times when either I've made a mistake or I've got to correct something or I'm getting hidden especially at Gretz's way where if it's something I have to deal with, somebody tells me. It's meditation useful on this front and will it be useful going forward? Well, I just think in the sense that I'm more calm overall, sure.

Do you think, in my world, because I'm in the meditation world so deeply, there's a, it can be a little. Cultie. Huh. Actually, not really, but like I'm in the secular mindfulness world. It's not necessarily culty, but it can be a little utopian in the sense that you hear people talking about it being the answer to all.

Well, that's a problem. I mean, and some, I am in, I say no to like 99% of interviews about this. Because resisting that, there's no way, what I'm saying now is honest. And when if I was talking to a friend, I would be very, but there's no way to talk about it in a way

that doesn't make you sound like a polyannish evangelizer. Well, I think there is. Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard, but you really, I mean, I spent four years writing the stupid book and. It's an excellent book. It's not a stupid book. Thank you. You were actually in early and vocal supporter for which I will be eternally grateful.

But I think there's a, I think it's hard to do. It's a real challenge. I catch myself when I'm doing it. Well, my rule is I never talked to anybody about it unless they ask Well, absolutely. So there's that and I do podcasts or write a book or whatever But I put it out, but you don't have to download it or listen to them. I'm not forcing you to do anything It but like my wife doesn't meditate and I don't like my okay, so that's a pretty good piece of data But I do think it's possible to talk about it as a form of mental exercise that's useful to you.

It's not gonna fix the whole world, but in the hence, the whole 10% happier stick that doesn't come off as culty, I think. That's not different. I'm sure you're right. It's just, it's more the way I fear that I sound when I'm talking about it. Well, but just getting back to this utopian idea,

that in my world, because I am now, so much more deeply immersed in the meditation world than I was even before I wrote, even when I was writing the book, because now this kind of like public figure within this little world. But I do find myself actually getting into the more utopian ventin' that I feel like

as we enter this divided era, even more divided era in American politics, we've been divided for a while. Actually, this kind of mental exercise could be useful. Whatever floor you take. Oh, well, but there's a difference in useful in utopian. I completely agree that it's useful. I mean, I'm deeply anti utopian. I think, I guess I believe in original sin. I believe we're all flawed human beings, not perfectable. I don't think meditation can make you anywhere close to a perfect human being. It just gives you some tools to deal with your imperfections. And that's just, I think, the human condition. Now, that said, does it mean we can make things a little bit better uh... absolutely and if you can make even your own

life a little bit better that's got a ripple effects starting right there well uh... absolutely on individual level but i where i start and i don't think it's utopian i i i agree with you uh... i'm not a utopian but i do think that you can start to have a societal impact just think about this if if the percentage of Americans who currently work out were now meditating, that would actually have an impact on behavior in the world.

Well, you say, and to give props to the David Litch Foundation, which, you know, I used to head by Bob Roth, who I learned from, they're now branching out in ways that are, I think, are fantastic. They're at schools in Chicago. Absolutely. They're going to school and here in New York City They're going they've they've petitioned the veterans department in Washington DC and they're working veterans dealing with PTSD and it shows that you know they believe will show a measurable impact in helping people deal with that Women who've been the victims of

Sexual abuse or other kinds of trauma. They've gone into centers to help deal with that as well. I think that it can be a huge supplement to traditional counseling, medical attention, education. Bob Rathasagai, I know a little bit now was we had lunch a few months ago, we email quite a bit, who I grew to, he's a really smart and nice guy.

But you know, something that I've talked about and I wonder what your thoughts are about it is that TM has such an interesting history because it is a sectarian organization and was headed by this charismatic guru, the Maharishi Maheshiyogi who was the guru to the Beatles and etc. etc. And he talked about some things that are a little out there, like the world piece and give you this strength of an elephant, et cetera, et cetera. How do you deal with that?

I don't even think about it. I ignore it completely. Completely ignore it. Like I said, for me, going in, all of that background, which I've been exposed to a little bit, many, many, many, many years ago, just block it off.

Doesn't affect my practice in any anyway. Something I've never really thought about, like I said, I'm not into the the the metaphysics behind it that helps that is useful to some other people. Something I just don't pay any attention to in the same way. I don't know if this will get me in trouble. I also practice only once a week. Bick Ramyoga. Lots of questions about the guy who started that as well. I don't like that. I don't endorse it in any way, but the practice to me in and of itself is useful.

Yeah, no, I think it's a fair argument. I don't know much about the Bikram thing, but on the TM side, and I think Bob's done a really good job of saying, hey, take or leave, whatever's going on in here. Absolutely. He's one of the first things he said, yeah.

Absolutely. Interestingly enough, you know, T.M. comes out of a Hindu background and I brought this list. Who is that? Exactly. One of the things that the Buddha himself said to people, which I find deeply reassuring is, hey, I'm going to talk about a few metaphysical things, including rebirth and enlightenment, et cetera, et cetera.

Take it and leave it. Oh, I didn't know that. Do the practice. Yeah, his ideas, this is exercise for you or leave it. Oh, I didn't know that. Do the practice. Yeah, his ideas, this is exercise for you. This is a kind of therapy, kind of medicine. Do it and see for yourself. And I find that, I mean, like this is why you find a lot of scientists, et cetera,

who are interested in Buddhism. In fact, Robert Wright was an evolutionary psychologist. I believe I'm getting his title right. Is about to come out with a book called Why Buddhism Is the Truth. And I think it's a small, it's not a capitalized tea. You know, it's more like, yeah, this thing is true, and yeah, there are parts of it, I don't like,

but you don't have to deal with that. And basically, the truth is, well, there are many layers to the truth, the truth is you can train your mind and you don't, it's what we're talking about before. Anyway, before I let you go, just some more about the politics here. Give us a sense of what your day is like on an auguration day.

What is it like for you? Um, well, we'll find out. I'm, this will be my first one for ABC was back in 1997 in a very different role. Uh, this will be my, uh, I guess my third one, no, second one, anchoring. Um, and I, I hope not to make the mistake I made last time around. You know, there's a lot of name-shacking and identification of people in the crowd. And last time around, in a quick moment, and I took it back so quickly, but I identified Bill Russell as Morgan Freeman. Yeah. Sports radio had a field Freeman. Yeah. Yeah.

Sports radio had a field day. Yeah. With that one. Got you. But what the day is, it starts, I may actually sleep an hour later than normal, because I know it's going to be a long day coming out. But I say a lion until three thirty. Three thirty or four, we'll see.

Maybe even a little later. But GMA is seven will just GMA from seven and nine. And then really starting at eight thirty when you you start to stream live as well GMA kind of morphs into a special event and we'll just start anchoring the coverage following all the different activities of the day starting with you know the church service that the president-elect Trump will go to in the morning, that coffee at the White House where he meets with the first family for the first time in the White House. Well, I guess the second time he's met with Obama, that car ride with the two men to Capitol Hill, and of course, the ceremony where he takes the oath.

And then there's kind of a law when the president like goes into lunch with the Senate in the House, and we more or less talk about the day. The next public event that will kind of narrate and follow is the departure of President Obama sort of mid-afternoon to Andrews Air Force Base where he flies out for the last time on the plane that is generally called Air Force One when the President rides in. I think this one is going to be called, but it's special air mission. This will probably be 29,000. The last one was 28,000. And then we cover the parade and we'll stay on, I think, through President-like, the

President's entrance in the White House where he may be signing some more executive orders. He may sign them earlier at the White House where he may be signing some more executive orders He may sign them earlier at the Capitol and we'll probably be on about four or five in the afternoon and when when we look at you doing this are you Having fun are you tired? Are you nervous? What what does this like for you as an experience? It's so I like the I think the best part of our jobs is dealing with real news happening in real time, covering special events. I think it's a great privilege to have the chance to do it. I love the craft of anchoring a program like that

and trying to weave together 25 different contributors with a story that is actually happening in real time and bring a sense of to our viewers of what is happening, the history behind it, the context, the personalities. For me, that's fun. I mean, you know, people talk about flow and fun, and fun is the definition when you sort of lose track of time. I don't even notice the time going by.

And on days like the inaugural, nights like an election night, it's all happening. Both very slowly and very quickly at the same time i think again going back to the meditation something about that helps me sort of uh... slow everything down while i'm talking about it and bring people in but the day just flies right by yeah then i'm exhausted yeah i think that that that what you think is going to be like for president obama you had you did this amazing interview with him that air this past sunday

believe us this past i don't know the sundays go uh Sunday, or was it one of the attendees go? Another Sunday. His exit interview, one of the final interviews in the White House, you did this incredible walk from the residents to the novel. It was amazing. And also, watching you do it, knowing your experience in the White House, actually for me, just lent it another layer. But he's going to be in a limo with a guy who campaigned on

essentially shredding his legacy every single bit of it right who he who he president obama said time and time again through the course of the campaign was dramatically unqualified by both experience and temperament to be president of the united states who said many times during the campaign to his supporters everything we fought for is gone. This man gets elected yet he has to out of reverence for the office for our democracy, feels a great responsibility to treat him with civility and not say exactly what he thinks about what's going on. Although he did also say, in my interview, that the election of Trump, which he did not see coming,

he can see it that clearly, has probably changed how he's going to, what he's gonna do after he leaves office. I think he'll be a little bit more involved than he planned to be. Even to the point of, you know, one of our special events tomorrow, he's going to do a press conference tomorrow, kind of late in the game to do a press conference, but it is going to be his farewell. Press conference will see how much of how much he bites on

on some of the more difficult questions that might come his way. Certainly his, I don't know if you saw it right before we walked in here, his, his press secretary, Josh Ernest gave his final press conference you know back at all what is that i was he he took on uh... what president putin said today about uh... that hacking and and trump and said that it seemed like putin was reading the admit the

incoming administration's talking points that's and we do you have any window in any visibility into Trump's state of mind as he goes into into Friday? Is he excited and nervous? I don't know. Does he get nervous? I've seen him a little bit nervous before. How can you?

How can you not be? I mean, that's one of the other things. President Obama, who doesn't show his nerves very often, can see. He said, listen, he said that minute before I went out and gave the inaugural, the first time before I took the oath, I was scared. He said, I didn't want to screw this up. He said, even Kennedy was the same way I have to believe that at some level, that will hit President Trump as well.

And I think we saw a tiny tick of that in that first meeting you had with President Obama on the what was the Wednesday after he liked to make it his Thursday. Even in his posture. And that's it. He was a sobered man. Yeah.

He seemed to bounce back pretty quickly, but I thought that was a pretty telling tablo. Okay, there's another addition of the 10% happier podcast. If you liked it, please make sure to subscribe, rate us, and if you want to suggest topics we should cover or guess we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. I also want to thank Hardly, the people who produced this podcast and really do pretty much all the work.

Lauren, Efron, Josh Cohan, Sarah Amos, Andrew Calp, Steve Jones, and the head of ABC News Digital Dance Silver. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with 1-3-plus in Apple podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at 1-3-dot-com-slash-survey.