Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 564: How to be Less Judgmental (Of Other People – and Yourself) | La Sarmiento

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

Meditation and mindfulness doesn’t uproot your capacity to be judgmental, but it can help you see the value in being judgmental by learning how to work with the judging mind. La Sarmiento has been practicing Vipassana meditation since 1998. La is a mentor for the Mindfulness Meditation Teacher Certification Program, a teacher with Cloud Sangha, and a contributor to the Ten Percent Happier app.In this episode we talk about:How mindfulness can help us identify when we’re being judgmentalThe difference between discernment and judgmentHow it can be so delicious to be judgmental of others – but why it’s actually harmful to ourselves and othersThe four questions to ask when we notice ourselves going into judgment mode How to operationalize the phrase “am I suffering right now?” Investigating the motivations behind striving for success Why owning up to being a jerk is sometimes the exact right answerFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/la-sarmiento-564See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, greetings. I have this vivid memory of being on a beach vacation with a bunch of friends many years ago When I was first getting interested in meditation. I was lounging and reading a book about Buddhism and One of my friends spotted me reading this book and remarked that he could personally never do Buddhism or meditation because He was a comedy writer and he needed to retain his capacity to be judgmental. There is so much to unpack in that comment. I mean, I wish that meditation uprooted my capacity

to be judgmental. I wish that the technology were so effective. But anyway, I think the real misunderstanding here is that there's somehow a lot of value to being judgmental. I think that misunderstanding is based in a conflation of discernment with judgmentalism. If anything, I think mindfulness, clear seeing self-awareness, the kind of skills you generate through meditation, will make you better able to discern the kind of details that might make good comedy or help you make better decisions generally. And one of the things that being mindful teaches you is that being judgmental, kind of sucks. It's painful. Judgmentalism carries a valence of ill will or hatred or

superiority, none of which feel good if you're actually paying attention. And of course, many, if not most of us, expand most of our judgmental energy, not on other people, but on ourselves, nitpicking every decision, second guessing, compulsively, as a friend of mine once joked, if anybody else said to him the kinds of things that his inner narrator says to him, he would punch that other person in the face.

And yet many of us, truly and deeply believe that we need to liberally apply the inner cattle prod in order to get anything done. I will admit that I'm still working on this for myself. So today we're going to talk about how to work with the judging mind. My guest is Las Armiento who's been practicing Vipassana meditation since 1998. La is a mentor for the mindfulness meditation teacher certification program, a teacher with cloud Sangha, and a contributor to the 10% happier app. In this conversation, we talk about how mindfulness can help us identify when we're being judgmental, discernment versus judgmentalism.

How it can be so delicious to be judgmental of other people, but why it's actually harmful to ourselves and others. The four questions to ask when we notice ourselves going into judgment mode, operationalizing the phrase, am I suffering right now as a life hack par excellence, investigating the motivations behind our striving for success, and why owning up to it when we've been a jerk is sometimes the exact right answer. We'll get started with Los Armiento right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping

our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our Healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonicle and the great meditation teacher, Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm.

All one word spelled out. Okay. On with the show. Hey, y'all. It's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from, MySpace? Listen to Baby This is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Lots of Armiento, how we doing? Doing well. Thank you, Dan. Good to be here again. Great to have you back on the show. Thanks for doing it. So judgment, being judgmental.

This is a problem for other people because I've never had this problem. But you've, in the past, publicly told a quite moving story. I'm wondering whether you'd be willing to tell it here about your history with this particular quality of mind, which is, of course, universal, which, if memory serves, you really first encountered in your childhood. Yeah, thank you, Dan. So as a very young child, when I was about five years old,

I recognized or realized that I was queer, I was non-binary, and of course didn't have any vocabulary for that at that age in 1969. Basically, I felt there was just something innately wrong with me. And so the concept of judgment came up from this fear of being less than other people and doubtful and insecure of myself. So being judgmental of others was really a way for me to feel better about myself. And so it really kind of stemmed from this place of deep insecurity, doubt, lack of belonging, acceptance in a world that I, Intuitive at a very young age, didn't accept someone like me. What form did this judgmentalism take? How did it express it itself?

Yeah, so it could express itself like being competitive. I would compare myself to others and try to beat people out, whether it be academically or athletically just trying to be better than everybody else is how it showed up for me and thinking that people that didn't meet the standard that I had said for myself were less than adequate or less than who I was at the time. And it created a lot of a sense of superiority, a false sense of superiority, I would say. and to a certain extent, a way of further isolating myself and that's something that I later in life recognized was that that was happening, was I wasn't creating more connection. I was actually creating separation by comparing myself and judging others for being less than who I've had myself be in the world. Just to say, I think it's really useful to talk about this, and I appreciate your

candor. So you talked about it in a childhood context. Did it play out through your adult years as well? Yeah, I would definitely say it played out a lot in my relationships, and it became actually more internalized. Like, I started judging myself more in this comparison to others. And so I further the story that I was less than others. Like for example, when I started teaching the Dharma and mindfulness, I would compare

myself with my colleagues thinking that, oh, I went on way less retreats than they did. I'm not like a very naturally inclined sitting meditation person. I try to integrate mindfulness and the dormant into my everyday life. And so going on long retreats wasn't something that interested me at all. And so when I was dubbed a teacher, I began to like doubt like, oh, am I actually really qualified for this? And why are people inviting me to teach when I definitely don't have the same credentials or qualifications as many of my colleagues and I even put the story on well. How many immigrant

non-binary people of color are there in the Dharma when I was there and I was just there to like check off a bunch of diversity boxes. I mean that's how kind of low I got with myself. And so I would judge people that believe different political beliefs as I did who weren't spiritual like I was all in the name of trying to feel some sense of superiority or some sense of yeah, like I was someone and not nothing. You mentioned the fact that you come from an immigrant family. I believe you've also talked about this kind of, it's my term, not yours, and maybe it's gonna work,

maybe it won't, but this kind of compensatory judgmentalism that your parents adopted as well upon arrival in this strange new country. Yeah, exactly. And it was really interesting because, as people of color immigrated from the Philippines, they came actually more judgmental of other people of color thanrated from the Philippines, they came actually more judgmental of other people of color

than the dominant culture. And so we were taught to, if we were going to survive in this country, it really was about assimilating into the dominant culture versus being proud of the, where we came from our own heritage. And so that was another mixed message I got that I wasn't acceptable or good enough for okay in this country. And so I feel in a lot of ways my parents' judgment of others also stemmed from feeling inferior

and coping mechanism to feel more superior within themselves. Now that you're grown up and you have at least my mind unimpeachable, bone of fee days as a meditation teacher, do you still notice judgment coming up in your mind directed at other people or yourself? Definitely, you notice when it arises. Like, even this morning, I woke up and I was feeling really anxious. And I'm usually pretty easy going and peaceful, and I'm like, why am I feeling anxious?

Then I thought to myself, oh, because I'm going to be on this podcast with Dan this afternoon, and who am I to be on this podcast with someone like you and a podcast like this? And I just recognize, oh, yeah, that's my younger self, my inner five-year-old who got a needs improvement and show-and-tell, really not wanting to show up and be in front of however many people will be listening to this.

What if I mess up? What if I don't say the right things? All these things started coming up and I just have to pause and just use the practice in this way of like, oh yeah, but you're struggling right now. You're scared, you're insecure, you're doubtful, and just really acknowledging.

Like that was what was happening. And just taking some breaths and reminding myself that I've been on this podcast with you before, I will do the best I can. And if that's not good enough, I'm just happy I showed up. For the record, I have no doubts about whether you deserve to be here. So just to say that, and if you mess up, we'll edit it out. But I want to put a pin on something you did with yourself or to yourself in that moment of anxiety, which is you very specifically talked to yourself. You use the word buddy. We've done episodes on this,

and I find this to be incredibly compelling, the idea that we can counter program against these ancient neurotic programs we've got by very deliberately talking to ourselves, and I'll just shout out Ethan Cross, who's been on the show before, and quite a bit of research. We'll put a link to his episode in the show notes.

He wrote a book called Shatter and said a lot of research in at the University of Michigan and into our capacity, our now proven capacity to talk ourselves down from whatever ledge we've talked ourselves up onto. So can you say more about how you operationalize this insight? Yeah. Thank you, Dan. So for me, it's usually the part of me that gets scared or stressed out or feels doubtfully insecure is actually a younger version of myself that got the needs improvement and show and tell that had that story haunt me for most of my life that really has hindered me, but at the same time has been this blessing in a way to

face into like, this is not who I am. This is the story that I've carried ever since I was a little kid who didn't know how to deal with this. And so now through the practice of mindfulness, I've been able to oh, recognize like, it's okay to have these feelings and really being kinder and gentler with myself around my perfectionism, which was one of my other survival mechanisms, to not let anybody see that I was flawed or insecure, doubtful or fearful of things. And so, I think that's what has really helped me in my teaching is that I'm just very honest about what's going on for me.

So it really is about humanizing our experience. And so if someone who is labeled a teacher or a leader can own like, oh, yeah, I do feel scared or I do feel insecure, then it hopefully makes everyone else feel like, oh, well, maybe it's okay to feel those things. We all have sort of this tendency in this culture, the hind behind some facade, that's not really who we are. And I just basically got tired. It takes a lot of effort to keep trying to present in a way that's

inauthentic. Yes, you're doing the opposite of the curated Instagram feed. And I think it's extremely healthy. I've heard this term. I don't know who came up with it. Catholic normalization. Now, it's possible as Brunei Brown, the great sociologist and researcher has pointed out to overdo that, but you're not. And it's very helpful to talk about what's happening in the mind. And then of course, what you add is how to deal with it.

You talked about mindfulness there, but one of the old clichés about Buddhism is that there are two wings of the Dharma. There's wisdom, which you can define as seeing clearly and compassion. And in your morning routine, talking yourself off of the ledge of anxiety this morning, I heard both wings. You had to have the mindfulness, the scene clearly, the wisdom to notice that this was happening that you were having this interdialogue. And then the compassion or warmth or friendliness, you might even say, love to give a shit and try to give yourself some first aid.

Right. Exactly. And it's been this process of kind of repairing myself because as much as my dear parents tried to raise as well, everything was about hiding all those aspects of myself. Just suck it up and just keep moving on. Or immigrants, we can't dwell on our feelings or disagreeing with something. We just have to keep moving forward. And so for me, it really was a way of accepting,

like this is who I am. And these are feelings that are very human, that I'm as an adult, like really allowing myself to feel and allowing myself to take care of those feelings and not putting that on anybody else, whether it be my parents, my partner, my friends, that it's my responsibility to take care of them in that way.

And so, sort of the litmus test for me is always noticing when I'm suffering. One of my dear teachers, Eric Kolwig, said at the end of one of the retreats and this stuck with me for probably 20 years now, if there's anything you're going to take from this retreat, let it be these two things to practice every day and to notice when you're suffering. And when I can notice at any point in time during the day when I'm suffering, whether it be physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, then I tell myself to just slow down, slow down, take some breaths, acknowledge, honor, nurture, whatever is going on for you, and it'll be okay. The more I push it away or try to suppress it, it just keeps coming back at me.

So if I can process these emotions and feelings as they come up, then I'm not harboring a lot of that stuff in me all the time, which I think many of us in this culture do. And then we explode or we make unskilful choices or decisions or actions or speech because we're constantly in reaction to whatever is right in front of us. I've said this before, but your story about what was said to you at the end of the retreat reminds me of this mini realization I had

when I was on a retreat once, which is that if I'm suffering, there's something I'm not mindful of. Yeah, exactly. And in noticing that suffering, then we become more mindful. And there's something we can actually do about it. If we choose to, if we remember to, and that's the other part is remembering that we have a choice in how we proceed once we get that we're suffering. Sometimes I'll be suffering and then I'll just like sling

another arrow or two in there or three or four and it's like, wow, I'm really shooting myself up here. And so I think as I get older as I get more mindful, I'm much more sensitive to the fact like, yeah, I don't want to suffer. Like I'm totally open to experiencing pain in this life. It's just a given, but I don't have to add to that pain by the stories I tell myself or internalizing stories. Society says about someone like me or what somebody else may be projecting on who I am. Yeah. So it's more of this discernment. And I think the more I discern the less I judge, you said that when you notice judgment in your mind, there are four questions you ask yourself. Can you run through those?

Yeah. So usually it's my heart open or closed. Am I suffering or am I free? Am I feeling empowered or disempowered? And am I feeling connected or disconnected? Why those questions? I think for me, they in particular just kind of go to the root of it because if we're feeling disconnected, our hearts shut down, I'm not feeling empowered, and if I'm

suffering, it's painful, it's physically painful, it's emotionally draining, it's mentally exhaustive, and then especially around feeling disempowered. It's like, oh, I've given away my power again. Oh, I've appeased or I've allowed someone to like step all over me again. And it's something, it just helps me remember like what's most important to me and that's to keep the open heart to not suffer, to be free and to feel empowered. And so it really is this way of just checking myself, like where am I right now in this moment around those four particular aspects? Open Heart is a term that gets thrown out a lot, but I think maybe for some of us, it can be hard to access through all the cultural baggage. So very specifically, what do you mean by it? Yeah. So, you know, our culture tends to be like,

you're either as hard as like wide open or closed. So it's like it's off and on switch. And my dear teacher Joe Weston often talks about, what if we upgrade to a dimmer switch? So rather than it'd be totally open, 100%, or totally closed, 100%, depending on the situation, we use our dimmer switch to be like, oh, when I listen to the news, my heart is about 20% open.

But when I'm playing with my dogs, it's like 95% open. And so there's this continuum of open heartedness so that it's not making oneself totally vulnerable and at the same time, it's not totally shutting ourselves off from life altogether. But it's like depending on the situation, how do I discern how open I feel is safe enough for my heart to be in this situation

or with this person. And again, very specifically, when you say your heart is open or closed, what does that actually mean? It's your openness to the information, your openness to processing other people's emotions, what do you mean specifically? I would say it's like my capacity to be willing to engage, to be willing to cultivate patience and understanding and respect and love and compassion. So it's having that capacity to be present

with life, no matter how it's unfolding, whether it's something joyful or something that's really challenging and painful, but to be there with it is what I mean by my heart being open. It's kind of the opposite of being judgmental. Yeah, exactly. Judgment creates separation, creates pain, it creates a sense of isolation, not belonging. And it's all the ways that we as humans are not wired to be. We are wired to actually be social on a continuum as well.

And so we're all different and what that means for us can vary. And to me, like judgment, I think has gotten a really negative connotation around it. And so for me, I tend to use the word discernment because it's not like shooting from the hip. It's more thoughtful. It's like, okay, let me just pause for a moment and see what's all here. And take it in and from my own sense of integrity and discernment figure out like what's the best thing. out like what's the best thing. And I don't do that all the time. You can ask my partner. Like last week, she said, you know what you're being a jerk right now. I'm like, yes, I'm very mindful that I'm being a jerk right now. And I'm very aware that it feels really good to be a jerk in this moment. And eventually, I'll be, I'll apologize to you for the impact that's having, but that's what's present for me right now. So yeah, so I'm not always open-hearted. Sometimes I lose it and can go into my old habit energies as well.

You talked about the difference between being judgmental and being discerning. And I think some people will have the thought in their head, well, shouldn't I be judgmental sometimes? If I lose my capacity to be judgmental, I'm not gonna to be able to tell who's right and wrong or make a difference, the choice between chocolate and vanilla at the ice cream store or whatever. So how do you respond when you get that question?

Yeah. So when I hear the word judgmental, I automatically go to this place of like, okay, there's this judging aspect that's not necessarily informed in a way. It's more of like a gut reaction to something. And so there's just something about the word judgmental that just doesn't sit with me well. And so I use discerning instead because for me, it just kind of slows down the process and has me kind of take inventory of all that's present and that's happening, and then choosing to act or speak from that place.

It's like, oh, because people will say, oh, you're being judgmental. Automatically you get defensive. It's like, I know I'm not, but if we discern, for me, that's more like, I'm speaking from my own experience, I'm speaking from my own discernment of what's happening, and this is mine.

It's not a projection of judgment onto something else. Well, very good at self-deception, though. I can imagine telling myself a whole story about how, no, no, in this moment I'm being discerning, not judgmental when in fact I am being judgmental. That's why we practice mindfulness, then, because we're aware. That's like, I'm trying to pull the wool over my own eyes or somebody else's eyes. The other skeptical question I could imagine arising in the minds of listeners on this topic would be something along the lines of, isn't there some deliciousness to being judgmental

at times? Isn't that the basis of comedy? Isn't gossip fun? I'm having trouble formulating the question exactly, but do you understand what I'm pointing at? Yeah. So I think it's really around context. And there's a lot in comedy that folks get away with that you wouldn't necessarily get away with in a everyday conversation per se. When I first watched this one comedian Russell Peters and he was making fun of all different kinds of mostly Asian accents and stuff, it was like, I noticed myself like, oh, I'm like laughing at that because in certain ways, especially when he did accents from

the Philippines, it was like, oh yeah, it definitely sounds like my parents. But I've seen Dharma teachers do this where they will imitate their like, say, Indian guru and that's just not cool. So to me, it really depends on the context of which we're doing this. And there are definitely comedians that get called on some of their comedy, like Dave Chappelle and etc. So it really is a lot fine line depending on who's receiving the entertainment and whether they think it's appropriate or not. How can I judge that for anybody but myself? Where do you stand on the good gossip session? There's definitely a little,

especially like if it's somebody that I'm not very fond of or I don't respect, etc. And then I'll feel into that a little bit. And then I'll pause and remember like, would I want anyone else to be talking about me this way? And it usually is I'll get into a conversation with someone, we'll go off on somebody. And then I notice like, oh, it just doesn't feel good. It doesn't land well in my heart. My body starts to get a little tense, and especially being immersed in Adharma and mindful speech for 23 years, it's like, yeah, it's like not ethical. It's definitely something a lot of people do,

almost everybody does, and it's also hurtful. And so, so much of our practice is about not causing harm, and I've definitely caused my share of harm through gossip, and I try to watch that as much as I can. But there are definitely times when I'm just like, Dishon and, you know, totally participate. But in the end, like later, I'll have a lot of regret or remorse around it. Coming up, La talks about the concept of eating ice cream while also serving the world,

and they challenge the assumption that the only way to be effective is through fear and self-laceration. We're right after this. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident

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listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Let me go back to the four questions you ask. Is my heart open or closed? Do I feel connected or disconnected? Do I feel free? Or am I suffering? Am I feel connected or disconnected? Do I feel free? Or am I suffering? Am I feeling empowered or disempowered?

You've talked about that from a first person perspective. Those are the four questions you ask yourself when you have sufficient mindfulness to notice that you've gone into a mode of being judgmental. Can you put your teacher hat on and advise us on how we might operationalize these four questions? It's quite a bit to remember, so I'm wondering how you would advise us to work with this. Yeah, so one of the first things we learn when we learn to meditate is mindfulness of the

body. And so it's the first foundation of mindfulness, according to the Buddhist teachings. And so it really is the more aware of how our bodies feel whenever we're feeling some form of stress, whether it be something joyful or something difficult and challenging, that's the first clue. And so you can negate whether you're feeling open-hearted, connected, empowered, whether you're free, etc. So it's like, oh, can I just get like right now, jaws clenched, my shoulders are up to my ears, my hands want to form fists, etc. There's like something going on.

And in that moment can be recognized that we're in pain or we're suffering. We suffer if we're adding a story about, like, oh, I shouldn't be feeling this way because I should know better or whatever it happens to be. And that tends to be the counter to us having feelings is that I shouldn't be feeling this way. So to make this, the four questions just really easy is like what my teacher Eric Cole said, it's like, this notice when you're suffering. But also, Dan, we live in a culture where the baseline or existence tends to be suffering, because we're all pretty stressed out. And so the practice helps us to get like, oh, there's another way we can be. And the more you practice, the more,

you know, the thoughts tend to quiet down, the more we're able to be with our emotions, more fully, the more we're able to even create more ease and spaciousness in our bodies so that we can be with life as it is. And so when we suffer, we'll notice when we're not at that different baseline of calm and ease and spaciousness and peace. And so it becomes more acute or more present for us to get like, oh, I'm suffering right now. So what do I want to do about it? So you don't need to remember all four questions, although they're great questions and can be very useful. But if you don't have access to them and you're working memory at this moment, you can just notice, am I suffering right now?

And that's a pretty useful feedback, and it may be that you're caught in a snarl of judgment for other people yourself. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, am I feeling stressed in some sort of way? And suffering in some sort of way, if I just pause long enough to get, like what's going on with my body?

What emotions am I feeling right now? What thoughts are going through my head? Stories are going through my head. So it's like the acronym rain that's been spread all over now through Tar Brock and Michelle McDonald. I'm like just recognizing like what's happening? You know, can I hang out with this right now? And then investigating it, checking it out.

How is it affecting my body? Like, what emotions are arising within me? What thoughts or stories are going through my head right now? Am I suffering? Even if you just carry that phrase around with you, like, am I suffering right now? That would be enough. There's a Buddha taught two things,

suffering and the alleviation of suffering. And that's what all this practice really is about, is how to be with our suffering so that we can actually live our lives fully. I mean, I think it's quite a beautiful whittling down of the ultimate and most profound life hack. Are you suffering at any given moment? And if you are, can you stop and investigate and be cool with yourself in that moment? That is, I think, the life hack par excellence. Yeah, I'm a very simple teacher. I don't need to, you know, I'm just like how my parents with me is like, it's like this. If father has

this really great phrase, like think about it. Just stop and just think about what's happening right now. And that's another question I ask myself throughout the day. It's like, all right, buddy, what's happening right now? Just randomly throughout the day. What's going on?

Because oftentimes we're just caught up. Caught up in our Zoom meetings, caught up with work, caught up with our relationships, but to pause long enough to get like, oh, yeah, what's present right now? Does anything need to be tended to in this moment? Let me ask you another question that often comes up in this context and this pertains to judging ourselves. I hear there's a lot and I can even hear it a lot of my own inner dialogue. I will achieve nothing if I don't liberally apply the internal cattle prod.

How do you respond to that? Because I'm sure I'm not the first person to articulate that concern to you. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, right? Because some people need that kind of push to get motivated. And maybe that could be a skillful means. But if it gets to the point where it's harmful or painful or we push ourselves way too hard, we overwork, we overcommit, we don't have time for anything or anyone or ourselves,

then that's not really living. It's like, well, what are you trying to achieve anyway? It would be my question, like, what is it that you want from this life? Fame, fortune, or just happiness, like ease. I mean, I used to push myself. I used to be very much more of a striving kind of person and a lot of that came from my doubt and insecurities and about myself and that I needed to prove that I was worthy of existence. You know, and I had to do all those things to prove that worth. And when I finally realized,

like, I'm already worthy just because it's my birthright. It's just I'm a human being. I deserve to exist. And I'll do what I need to do, but I don't have to prove my worth to anyone anymore. And for somebody who has social identities like myself, that's quite liberating because so much of my life was making up for the fact that I was an immigrant non-binary person of color,

which I often will say like all my identity's are trending right now. And so, yeah, once I got like, wow, there's no where to get, but just be here, accept you, it's not about you. And so it's really about, it was really about decolonizing my heart, mind, body in so many ways from those internalized messages that I got from the culture. I'm gonna keep pressing you, not because I disagree it in any way, but just because I suspect there might be people listening who are as yet unsolved.

So let me invoke my dad, not an immigrant, but second generation American, Jewish, and he had a little motto, which was the price of security is insecurity. And I remember he was a quite a renowned academic physician at Harvard, and I remember him once when I was starting to get into meditation telling me that he had had some colleagues who got into meditation and it made them, and I'm quoting here, like totally ineffective. And I can hear my dad saying, okay, so you're gonna rest in your inherent worthiness,

but does that lead to total complacency, do you then sit and eat ice cream forever? I do eat ice cream, but then I still serve in the world. It's like I can have both. So it really is a really, I totally hear where you're coming from, Dan. It's a really strong story that many of us carry in this particular capitalist, patriarchal, racist culture of like, yeah, you gotta gotta push, you gotta work hard, you gotta earn, you gotta, yeah, if that all makes you happy, then what power to you?

But if it doesn't, then my invitation is to like, examine what is it that you really want from your life. And for me, it's like, I want a deep sense of peace so that like, whatever is happening and a deep sense of equanimity so that no matter what is happening out there in the world, it's not going to knock me over. And so it really is this trust belief in myself that I've worked like done that whole like, oh, I'm going to work really hard. And it's like, yeah, I'll make more money or even in the Dharma world. It's like, I'll do all these different retreats and stuff, but then I just end up tired and cranky and irritable and disconnected and I'm not happy.

You know, so I've actually been switching gears and I'm no longer teaching week long meditation retreats. I'm more into small group mentoring and individual mentoring because I really love being in relationship with my students. I don't need to teach masses of people, hundreds, 200, 500 people at a time. That doesn't appeal to me. I care about people individually and wanna support them in whatever way, whether it be collectively in a small group or individually on their own. And I feel like I'm a pretty happy grounded, peaceful person because of it. And that's enough for me.

And that's another thing. It was like, for a long time, nothing was going to ever be enough. And I get to determine what that is, for me at this point in my life. And this is enough, no matter what anyone else thinks I should be doing or how I should be doing it. Well, as somebody who quit to lucrative anchor jobs in network television to dedicate himself to meditation, I respect your professional decisions. And let me see if I can kind of recapitulate at least two of the messages I'm hearing from you

on this subject of judging oneself harshly as a motivational tool. this subject of judging oneself harshly as a motivational tool. One, if you're carrying around the story that you need to kick your own ass in order to achieve anything, maybe investigate whether that strategy is actually making you happy. What are you getting out of it? Two, maybe investigate an assumption that might be fueling this story that you need to kick your own ass in order to get anything done. And that assumption might be that you can't be effective if you're motivated by anything other than fear and self-loss oration. Yeah, there's a bumper sticker I used to have on my car that was from Ben and Jerry's that basically said, like, do what you love, love what you do. I don't know how many people can actually say that they do that. And also, I'm going to acknowledge that I'm speaking from a privileged place where

I don't have to worry so much about money. I've got a partner that makes good money as well. And for some people, like whatever job they have is what they have. And I totally honor and respect that. And not everyone has that ability to make those choices. So yeah, I think it just really depends. Absolutely, we all have varying levels of luck and we're dealt different hands and much of that is out of our control. And yet I just do want to hone back in on

this question of motivation and effectiveness because you said earlier, I can eat the ice cream. Ice cream keeps coming up, but I can eat the ice cream and still serve in the world, I believe, was your terminology, but you could rephrase that to just sort of being effective generally. I can have a sense of my own worthiness. And I can be really active. And what I hear from that is that the activity can be motivated not by insufficiency, fear, lack, whatever, but it can be motivated by, I'm going to use a big word here. It's not a long word, but it's a big concept, love. And I don't mean that in the most string music, swelling, white, light type of way.

I mean, just sort of the basic human capacity to give a shit. You can be acting out of love for your family, to provide for them, love for yourself, to provide for yourself, love for your customers, or clients, or colleagues, or listeners in my case. And so can you get out of one motivation into a more cleaner burning fuel that involves less self-judgment? Yeah, beautiful Dan.

It really is that what is underneath that drive, that striving, that push, is it ego, is it fame, Is it money? It's all the world they win, as they call it, and the good is teaching. It's like gain in loss, fame and distribute, like all these different things where, you know, in our culture, that's what success is meant. And so for me, if I can help one person just breathe a little easier, love themselves just a little bit more a day, then I can help one person just breathe a little easier or love themselves just a

little bit more a day, then I'm good. But we don't live in a culture anymore that really takes the time to do that because it's so fast, there's so much going on, it's overwhelming to even just engage in life. So much for me around mindfulness practice is really about slowing down enough so I can actually get like how I'm choosing to engage in this life. Life is going to just do its thing, but how I relate to it is the only thing I have control and power over. Along those lines of how we're relating to whatever's happening in life, in our mind,

in the world, in the world, in the universe at any given moment, in preparing for this discussion you shared with my colleague Gabrielle, some thoughts from another Dharma teacher, Philip Moffitt, who asks people to ask themselves in any given moment, which mode they're in, judging, comparing or fixing. Can you hold forth on that idea? So, these are just like, to me, like, just three different ways we just try to survive in the world. And so, yes, we were talking about earlier, just like the judgment, it's just a way of sometimes feeling superior to someone else when in comparing,

it's like, okay, like where am I in comparison to someone in this situation? Like, am I doing this better than they are? Are they doing it better than me? And there's always this like sense of competition in this comparing. And then fixing is like, I just don't want to deal with it. I'm just going to just take care of it and not mess with all this other stuff. And so it really is this way of, yeah, I don't like what's happening right now. So I'm just going to fix it. I'm just going to make it be a certain way

so that I can be okay with it. And so in many ways, it's just judging, comparing, fixing, just ways that prevent us from actually just being with life as it is. How do you find yourself using this tool and how would you recommend we do it on a moment and moment basis? Yeah, so it goes back to that suffering. It's noticing like, oh, I'm feeling insecure and inadequate or unsure of myself.

And so my habit energy is to either judge that person or compare myself to that person, or want to fix myself so that I can be better at whatever is going on. And so to notice that that's happening, it is to bring like compassion to the fact that like in this moment, I'm suffering right now. I'm judging myself for someone else. I'm comparing myself to someone else. I'm wanting to fix myself because I'm not enough. And so it just comes down to like, okay, noticing that that's what's happening, noticing the habit energy of any of these three qualities. And pausing long enough just to have compassion for the fact that I'm just suffering right now. And can I take care of that suffering? And what I'll tend to notice is that my need

for things to be different will lessen when I tend to acknowledging that that's what's happening, that the suffering is what's happening. That research that's been done that says the lifespan of an emotion is 90 seconds. But we carry so many of these emotions from childhood for decades because we never tended to it. We never acknowledged it. And so to notice when judgment, comparing mind,

fixing mentality occurs, it's like, oh, I'm really not wanting to be with life as it is right now. So what do I need to do to take care of myself in this moment? I noticed that a lot of my own meditation, I heard a teacher, and I can't remember who I need to do to take care of myself in this moment. I noticed that a lot of my own meditation, I heard a teacher, and I can't remember who was, maybe it was at Cartoli, say, and maybe many teachers have said this, but like one interesting question to ask yourself is, what is standing between you and being present right now?

And I see a lot of my meditation that, what is it? Why are we uncomfortable being awake right now? Because we're constantly living in the past and living in the future, that's how we're conditioned or either trapped in memories and stories or regrets of the past, or if that doesn't work, then,

well, maybe it'll be better sometime down the road or anticipating, oh, I'm gonna go in vacation I'm going to be doing this really great activity, but I can't be here right now. And so it really is pausing long enough. And I think that that being present is so hard because we're just not taught how to be present unless we, at some point in our lives, we're not against mindfulness or meditation or dharma, and really get like the only truth that there is in this life is the present moment. The past is already gone, the future is not even here, and there's no guarantees that we'll even have a tomorrow. And so to me, that's what makes the present so much more precious and valuable. it's all there is. But we're not conditioned in that way.

We're so conditioned quite the opposite. What the hell is here? Nothing's going on right now. Well, that's good because when you thought about the future, you were getting anxious and when you thought about the press, you were feeling regretful. So in this present moment, like I think Eckhart Toli even said, in this present moment, there's nothing wrong.

It's right now. there's like nothing wrong. Coming up, Lawt talks about how to celebrate rather than beat yourself up when you recognize that you've drifted off in meditation. They also talk about using our powers of discernment to separate who someone is from their behavior. That's coming up right after this. This discussion is bringing to mind one of my principal arenas for self-judgment, which is meditation and this kind of judgment that I see come up in my own mind when I'm not awake, when I wake up from some long jag where I'm planning a homicide or whatever. And just to train myself over time to not get caught by that judgment, just to make a mental note of, oh, that's what's happening right now.

I've woken up. And now I'm being judgmental about the fact that I woke up, but I can just, I can fall back and include that in my awareness too. Am I making any sense? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally, Dan. And that's the thing is like, we don't give enough credit to that moment

where we wake up. We automatically go to the fact that we judge that we fact that we weren't awake, like you were saying. And so to me, it's like I invite all my students to like, when you acknowledge that you've gone, your attention has been drifting, and it's been drifting for the last 45 minutes, and you're aware of that, like, celebrate that.

Like, that's great. Over time, the more you do this, that window of time between when you go off and when you come back will get shorter and shorter. Or you'll be aware, like, oh, I've gone off. Okay. I recognize that. And that's great. Let me just come back. Let's just begin again. And so rather than judging, it's like if we can just say we can just begin again. It's like we just start all over again. It's not a problem. But there's just so much conditioning to judge when we think we've

done something wrong. There's nothing wrong with drifting off. We all do it, but it's how you come back. It's really the practice. And that's where that compassion, that kindness, that gentleness, that often maybe we didn't get. It's like, oh, you drifted off. What's the matter with you?

You suck. You're an awful person. Like you can't ever do this. It just is painful. So we can remember like there's no really any place to really get. It's just to be aware of what's happening. And to come back, drift it away. I'm always telling people that moment when you wake up

from distraction is often a moment for self judgment or self-losseration, but actually it should be a moment for self-congratulation because you've woken up and you're seeing something about the mind. Whatever distraction you've noticed is teaching you or familiarizing you with your habits of mind so that they don't own you as much. Now, I say that to people all the time, and yet I fall into self-judgment when I meditate too, and then I have to kind of give myself the same talk. Increasingly, what I've noticed is when I get carried away, usually it's by one of two principle inner demons, anger, or self-centeredness. And I've really trained myself to say the following

when I wake up to that, thank you. Thank you to my inner rage monster, my inner self-promoter because even though they're doing it unskilledfully, they are trying to help me. And so just blow it a kiss and then go back to whatever I'm trying to focus on. Exactly. Because they're always gonna be there.

It's just, have an energy. It's just a habit that we have. And so when we get that this habit, like is hurtful or painful, I mean, why would you wanna engage in a practice where you're just constantly be rating yourself and judging yourself? Like I wouldn't even want to meditate anymore.

It's not a great motivation. But if the result of me being kinder and gentler with myself and more compassionate, it's like, oh, that actually feels good. It allows me to accept my humanity. It allows me to accept that I'm not perfect, that I do have flaws, or I don't do everything really well and can that be okay? And only I can like say that that's okay or not okay, but I've gone to this point Dan where You know, I don't necessarily like judge myself. I mean these feelings like come up

But it's it's not like oh, lie. You're awful like, you don't know anything or any of that. But it's gone to the point where like, I feel so far away from those voices that it sometimes makes it hard for me to relate to people that still are stuck in that place. I'd love to be in your place. Judging the other people who were caught up in some judgment. Because it's like, oh my gosh,

it's just like it's so painful. It's like, oh my gosh, it's so painful. It's like, stop doing that to yourself. Like you're just, yeah, you don't deserve that. Nobody deserves that. Amen. As we wing toward the end of our time together, I want to see if you'd be open to telling another personal story and this one has to do with,

not self-judgment, but judgment of others. And in particular, your tendency to be judgmental of your own family, including your mom, would you be open to telling that story? Sure. Yeah. So, my mom and I had very contentious relationship for a lot of our lives, both my parents very controlling and sometimes manipulative, but all out of a place of really wanting the best for us

and loving us, but not really knowing how to do that in a way that felt good to me. And so like what you were talking about that, that person that drives us to strive or to motivate us, right, not necessarily saying the best things. And so it was just really painful for me growing up to hear a lot of critical messages about how I looked, how I acted, how I lived my life, etc. And when it came down to my mom's last year of life, she had a terminal brain tumor. I vowed that I would take that

time, that limited time, to heal my relationship with my mother. And so much of that, what really was, is it possible for me to just accept her for who she is? And that at 78 years old, that she's not going to change, no matter how much I try to explain myself or do good in the world or whatever, she's going to have her judgments, her feelings about that. And what happened was that the more I focused on accepting her for who she was, it helped me just accept myself for who I am and that I didn't need that external sense of approval

from her anymore to validate my existence. And so my judgments of her political beliefs or her religious beliefs or criticisms of me or my sister, it was just like, that's all her stuff. I don't have to internalize this anymore. And so that judgment transformed into acceptance of who she was and then distrust and faith that in this lifetime like she did the best that she could with what she knew with what she had, what she experienced, the traumas that she lived through. There's so much that I don't know about my mom and still don't know about my mom that informed how she did show up in this life and in our lives. And so it was really very healing ultimately

for me to just get, she is the way she is and she was. And how I related to that was really what was going to determine my healing and my freedom in my relationship with her. And just to be clear, your acceptance of her does not equal endorsing her views that you find unacceptable. It's just accepting that this is the way she is. I can love her anyway, but I don't have to agree with her. Exactly. So for me, a big thing is being able to discern going back to that word between who someone is and their behavior. So if I believe that, like the Dalai Lama says, we all have innate goodness, Buddha nature in terms of Buddhist practice, then that's inherent in every single person, even the most who we think are the most

despicable of us in this world. So that's separate and distinct from one's behavior, how one chooses to show up, or not even chooses sometimes, it's just conditioned to show up in this world. And so when I make, can make that distinction, that's where I can have a sliver of compassion, or a sliver of understanding for someone, and not throw them out of my heart. I can set a boundary and say,

like, no, you're not gonna do that behavior around me anymore. I still love you, but you know, you can't be in my life right now. That's where that distinction comes into play. I guess the only last question that comes into my mind and you made a nod in this direction earlier, but it does seem like our society would function way better at an interpersonal level, but also at a macro level, if we could move from judgment to discernment.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is around the connotation of the word judgment, judgmental judging has. People always say, like, don't judge me. There's like that saying. And so to me, the word judgment really creates this separation between between all of us. And I feel like the discernment really creates a bit more thoughtfulness, a bit more openness, a bit more willingness to engage. La Sarmiento, always a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you very much for coming out. Thank you, much for coming out. Thank you, Dan, for having me.

Thanks again to La. Let me just quickly say that this episode was based on a Dharma talk that La gave at Spirit Rock a little while ago. The recording of that can be found on Dharma Seed, which is a website that compiles Dharma talks. We will put a link in the show notes. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir, Justin Davy, and Lauren Smith.

Our senior producer is Marissa Schneiderman. Kimmy Regler is our managing producer and our executive producer is Jen Quant. We get our scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio. Thank you all for listening. We'll see you in a few days with something new. Hey, hey, Prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery

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