Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 579: How to Meditate in Hell | Jarvis Jay Masters

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

Today we have a truly incredible episode about how to meditate in hell. You’re going to meet a man named Jarvis Jay Masters, who I interviewed from his cell on death row at San Quentin prison in California. Any of us who meditate do our best to apply it to life’s ups and downs — but this person has been applying it in some truly extreme circumstances. Jarvis has now spent more than three decades on death row, including more than two decades in solitary confinement. Shortly after Jarvis’s death sentence, he became interested in Buddhism, and started developing a rigorous practice under the tutelage of a Tibetan lama, Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche. Jarvis has now written and published two books about his life, Finding Freedom and That Bird Has My Wings. Both feature forewords by the renowned meditation teacher Pema Chödrön, who has been on this show, and his second book was endorsed by the late Archbishop Desmond Tutu and also by Oprah Winfrey, who selected the book for her famous book club last year.Jarvis’s current appeal sits before a federal judge as we speak. A decision on his future could be reached any day. Heads up there are frank discussions of suicide and domestic violence in this conversation.In this episode we talk about:His childhoodHis road to prisonHow he unlearned traditional (and harmful) aspects of masculinityHow he began to write, and the impact that had on him and his standing in the prisonHow he meditates in a noisy prisonThe details of his meditation practiceHis off-the-cushion practice of ‘engaged Buddhism’ with his fellow inmatesHow he prepares for the possibility of release–and for the possibility of executionHow he defines freedomFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/jarvis-jay-masters-579 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is Global Tell Link, you have a pre-paid call from. Jarvis Masters. And in beta, the California State Coverage, San Clinton, San Clinton, California, to accept its call, same or dialed five now. Thank you for using Global Tell Link. Hello? Hi Jarvis, this is Dan Harris. Hey, how are you doing? How are you Harris. I'm doing great.

Thank you for doing this. No, no problem. I really appreciate it. No problem. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, so today we have a truly incredible episode about how to meditate in hell. You're going to meet a man named Jarvis J. Masters, who I interviewed from his cell on death row at San Quentin Prison in California.

Any of us who meditate with some regularity do our best to apply the practice to life's inevitable ups and downs, but this person has been applying meditation and Buddhism generally in some truly extreme circumstances. You're going to hear Jarvis tell his own story, but let me give you a little taste here at the jump. Jarvis had an extremely difficult upbringing, which was marred by both poverty and abuse. He bounced around among foster homes before landing in San Quentin prison. At the age of 19, he was sentenced to 20 years for armed robbery for which he admitted

his guilt and served his time. Four years into his sentence, a prison guard at San Quentin was murdered. Jarvis was accused of sharpening the weapon that was allegedly used by another inmate to kill the guard. Jarvis has maintained his innocence from the start, but he was found guilty and sentenced to death back in 1990. The two individuals who were also convicted in this murder, the man who ordered the killing and the man who committed the stabbing, both received lesser sentences of life without parole.

Again, Jarvis was sentenced to death. According to a journalist named David Sheff, who wrote a whole book about Jarvis' case called The Buddhist on Death Row, Jarvis' conviction was marred by prostecutorial misconduct, false testimony, and questionable evidence. Even one of the sons of the murdered guard has spoken out in Jarvis' defense, saying, and I'm quoting here, that justice for Jarvis is also justice for my father. Jarvis has now spent more than three decades on death row, including more than two decades

in solitary confinement, which is incredible, if you think about it. Shortly after he received his death sentence, Jarvis became interested in Buddhism, and he started developing a pretty rigorous practice under the tutelage of a Tibetan teacher, Alama, named Chagdud Tuku Rinpoche. Jarvis has now written and published two books about his life. The first is called Finding Freedom and the second is called That Bird Has My Wings. Both feature forwards by Jarvis' friend, the renowned meditation teacher, Pemma Trodren, who's also been on this show. And his second book, That Bird Has My Wings,

was endorsed not only by the late Archbishop Desmond Tutu, but also by Oprah Winfrey who selected the book for her famous book club just last year. Jarvis' current appeal sits before a federal judge, as we speak. A decision on his future could be reached any day. Just to say, in this interview Jarvis does not talk much about his conviction and death sentence and the current situation in his case since his appeal is currently pending, which is why I'm going into some detail right now. Here though, is what we do talk about. We talk about his childhood, his road to prison, how he unlearned traditional and harmful

aspects of masculinity with the help of a person named Melody Burma child. You'll hear him reference Melody, who was an investigator assigned to his case and then became his good friend. How he began to write and the impact that had on him and his standing with his fellow inmates, how he meditates in an extremely noisy place. The details of his meditation practice is off the cushion practice of engaged Buddhism with his fellow inmates, how he prepares for the possibility of release and for the possibility of execution, and how he defines freedom. Heads up there are Frank discussions here of both suicide and domestic violence, also just a little

peak behind the scenes, because Jarvis was recording this interview from prison, we had to contend with constant interruptions, including pre-recorded messages, telling us that our call was being monitored, and also a phone line that automatically cuts off every 15 minutes. In real life, we conducted this interview over the course of about seven or eight different phone calls, spread out across two and a half hours. We have edited the conversation down and removed most of the interruptions. However, as you will hear, we've also left a few of them in. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again.

But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelli McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis Santos to access the course.

Just download the 10% Happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%.com. All one word spelled out. Okay, on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby This is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. This is Global Tell Link. You have a pre-paid call from This is global tell link. You have a pre-paid call from Jarvis Masters and in May that the California State Provinces and Quentin San Quentin, California.

Jarvis J. Masters, welcome to the 10% happier podcast. Glad to be there. Glad to be able to speak with you and others. I'm glad as well. I wonder if we could start with you just giving me a brief description of where you're at right now. When you look around, what do you see paint a picture of your surroundings if you're up for it? Well, you know, it's the majority of people who work in damage in a section called East

Block. It has two sides. It has a yard side and it has a base side. And both sides have five tiers. I'm on the first here and across from me directly across from me is a window that you know I used to be in the say out of but now it's just got so dirty that I don't know you pay attention and it's lucky. But yeah in the whole, you may be 50 people per tier and everyone on the tiers can down. Everyone in this building is on death row. It's a death row building. So

you got at least 500 people here. Are you sitting at a bank of telephones or do you have a private room that you can talk to us from? You know, what they do is they hand this phone on wheels type thing and they open your trace line and they hand you a phone and the cord's long enough for you to sit with and you stick your arms out the trace line to dial the numbers. And here I am, I'm sitting on my box right across me as a wall and it's only about four feet. I know if I stand up I can put my hands on both sides of the wall and it's only about four feet. I know if I stand up, I can put my hands on both sides of the wall very easily. I'm here talking to you. Well, I'm grateful that you're

talking to me, I'm fascinated. Are you in solitary confinement or are you allowed out of yourself? You know what, I was in solitary confinement for 23 years until they move into the general population of condemn row. Being in the general population of condemn row has nothing to do with the general population of Sanctuary. We are very, very isolated from the general population. So when I got out of isolation confinement after 22 years, there is this wide open deep breath that I was able to take. And we allow certain things more than, you know, we allow CDs and more exercise your time. More opportunities to go to commissary. Just very few things, but for me is wide open. You know, could I know what it felt like to be very solitary confinement? So to me,

it feels wide open. So that's pretty much it. I appreciate you painting the picture for us. 22 years in solitary confinement, I'm not an expert in solitary. I've done some reporting on it, however, and I know that the studies show it is extremely detrimental to mental health, to be isolated in that way. How did you keep it together? How did you stay sane for 22 years? There is no one real answer to that. Every point in my life where I felt really, really depressed. We're not depressed, but how much more of this I can take, something came up.

Rather, it was learning how to meditate, learning how to write, and getting. Because it's every part of my stay in there, something came up that allowed me to just run on that. Meditation, becoming a Buddhist, was one thing that helped me out. Fighting for my life in the courts kind of like many times, go by really, really fast. But I think more so than anything else, it was just learning how to meditate. And those years, it it go fast and they did go very very slow but it was just trying to find my own space which was not hard to do because you're denied by for sale but you know what you can do it and nine by for sale

what books are you going to read what you got to look forward to how you're going to do that and I was able to do it I don't't know exactly how, but I just felt blessed. My life felt blessed. There's no doubt I was watching people commit suicide over those 22 years in their cell. So I saw the death look like I saw the people who look like when they're dying. In every moment, I counted my blessings because I wasn't dying and I'm not dead. Those kinds of situations were very tragic in the neighborhood because he has a sheet wrapped around his neck and he's just laying there.

The several times I think something like that where there was from my next door neighbor on to myself, a way or three times a week. I don't like my life doesn't deserve this. You know, my life is not going to do this. There's people outside prison who would not like me if I did something like that. And it just gave me a lot of strength. You know, it's almost like when you see a car accident in your driving your own car and see how the car is demolished and you hope somewhere inside you that never becomes you and hopefully you drive a lot better. But that's what happened to me. It made me shift my life into a mode where I was really really looking at the things that can happen if I don't check myself and they became real for

me. So, you know, I was motivated to find my way away from the most dangerous things about being locked up in a cell for 23 hours a day. You know, when you asked me 22, 23 years, I mean, that blows me away. That's a long time. And I honestly believe that it wasn't dead time. You know, it was time to give me a chance to meditate. It was time to get me a chance to meditate. It was time to get me a chance to write. It was an opportunity that gave me things to do, things to find out about who I was as a human being. I want to talk a lot more about your meditation practice, your

Buddhist practice. But if it's okay with you, I'd be interested in going all the way back to the beginning of your life and Having you tell the story of how you ended up at San Quentin in the first place. Are you up for that? I'm gonna just quote you from your book here. You said and maybe this can provoke you to just start telling the story But here you say I was taken from my mother at the age of five after watching my father almost beat her to death as I tried to keep my sisters safe. So this was not an easy entrance into the universe. No, and after that, it was sneak kid out at night

right in the morning to find some food for my sisters and we going together at some point. Can they finally pick this up? Someone said that there was kids in a house that didn't have parents. And the parents big off a long, long time. I don't know how that happened. Who did that? But I ended up in a false throne.

With the school, I was cleaned up. And one thing that really got me through those first years of being away from my parents and my mother and my father was the fact that I was never without my foster mother telling me to pray for my mother. So I had that connection between having this foster mother who constantly asked me to pray for my mother and that my mother was sick, you know, and my her son was sick constantly, and made me realize everything I would experience at four or five years old was because of her sickness. And I just did well with my foster parents, and then at some point, they became too old,

and I had to move it out of the home into another foster home, which was a disaster for me. But I think about all the time, was that I was able to see what a real family looks like. You know, I was going to church, I was going to school, I was playing sports, I was doing all the things that just gave me a chance to grow, to live. Prior to that, it was just survival. that was just survival, you know, and when I got to the second foster home, I got a chance to see what a bad foster home looked like. You know, we were stacked up on bunk beds almost to the ceiling. We were in this little room. There was about five or six, maybe more foster kids.

And I suffered a lot. I was beating up a little bit. I was still downstairs. I almost got my pan cut off. So it was really, really bad. It was really bad. And I knew it was bad because I knew it was good, but I couldn't take that place. So I ran away and I ended up in a place called McLean Hall. And I wanted to stay. I wanted to be behind those gates. I wanted to be in a structure where you knew what you were getting in trouble for and you knew what you were not getting in trouble for.

I knew the counselor's care and I knew that some really, really cared. I wanted to stay there. I wanted to be a time when I ate, a time when I went to school, a time when I did that, because it was a structure that I needed. So after trying to manipulate my weight, to stay there longer, longer, longer, if faded weight, the game was up, you know, and it took me to another foster home and I ran away from that, did another foster home. Then at some point, they thought that I needed a group structure. So I went to boys homes

And the last boys home I went to was called the Cowell-Fly military academy and I still have Worse his memories there than any other place I've ever been in because it was just so violent I mean you got points for beating people up, and it was really, really bad. So at some point, they were told on, and they had to kick everybody out because the physical abuse that they were doing tells us kids. And I think it was a suicide there,

too, that allowed that people to start investigating. So they moved back, for the first time, I got moved back to my natural family, and that was really cool being there. But I lost the structure. There was no structure there. I lost the ability to have to come in at night. I was staying out all night.

You just start stealing things and all kinds of stuff. And I ended up getting in trouble, and I ended up going to the youth authority and I end up running away from the youth authority and I end up going back and just walking back and forth until I ran away from the youth authority. Me and another guy ran away from the youth authority and this is when I was about 17, 16, 17. And I committed a lot of crimes, a lot of robbery, so I can have something to eat or stay somewhere.

And finally, I got caught. I was so tired, I didn't mind being caught. In the end of the cinema, I was at the age of 18 years old. And that's how I got here. And I think that's how so many people get here. So many other kids get here the same way. It interesting enough, there were so many people I know when I got here. It blew me away that we were all here.

And we all got along like we gave over a kid. I mean real kids, I'm about 11, 12, 10, nine years old. They were the same guys. And for a lot of them, they were the same scars, physical scars on their bodies and all over, you know. I had my own, but as I began to meditate, and I began to look at this idea, I have a very good friend, probably one of the best friends I've ever had in my life. Melody Irmerchow, and she was bringing me articles and books about masculinity. What is a man?

Because I got caught up in trying to be this one kind of person that fit the script for San Quentin and any other person. And she started tearing me down from that, tearing that off, and giving me books to read. And it was not Buddhist books. So these books is about masculine. What is a man? How does he call to treat himself in relationship to society?

I always thought that there was an expectation of me to not feel pain, to not feel hurt, to not cry. I thought being a man was like keeping your word, fighting all the time, not taking a shift from anybody, all those things. And that was one of the things that got me in trouble every time. I was afraid of my first name because my first name sounded like I was aware. I mean that felt far deep. I was into it, you know. I had to have a game name, you know, I had to have some identification that related to being tough, being heavy, being violent, being, don't fuck with me type of thing. But then I started reading the book and stuff and I realized that people

were able to understand me when I spoke with all of that machismo type of thing. So I kind of like, I did back away from it. I started taking a look at it. I started noticing things and seeing things from different perspectives and giving myself permission to cry if that's what it was. So all that stuff, that's gripped off me. And I realized that people would like me more when I was myself. And I said, whoa, that's different. You can call me, you know. And that allowed me to have some spiritual grounding.

I felt the roots of my beginnings by getting rid of that stuff. Did it make me feel vulnerable in prison? Yes, it does. There's no way around it, you know, because you're not the same person that everyone thinks you are now. Who are you now? So I had to get around that. I had to figure a way around that, you know. And what surprised the hell out of me was that telling our stories, telling them a story about where I was, where I was going. It really, really opened me up to understand that

everyone in San Quentin had a story to tell. And I knew I had my own. And what I did not know was how similar our stories were. I know we've been in every place together, but I never knew how similar our stories were. And I never knew that the scars that they had on their backs come from the same place as I did. So I ended up writing about it and Melody helped me write their stories. She made

me feel honest or truthful to my own truth that I was able to do that. And after I wrote their story, I started writing a whole bunch of other stories. You know, I really got into it. And I found out that I'm a pretty good storyteller. So finding freedom with the first book I wrote and then the second book was that Bird has my wing. And that's where they found me. That's where everyone found me. You know, sitting with right. And they saw where I was going with this. That was acceptable because it was real. So after I started re-evaluating my life and what was going through this process of me going back into these institutions, was the fact that I needed that space to just sit and hear my thoughts.

And that's one melody and a few people started saying, I mean, more Buddhist books. And I was able to read those books pretty well because I knew that I had already begun the process of trying not to mask myself behind a lot of steel and armor and trying to beat this rock solid, you know, convict and San Quentin State Prison. I had already begun to check that away. So when I started reading the Buddhist materials, it came to me very easily that you don't have to be this tough guy. How about sitting down and meditating or just sitting down and being quiet for a while?

Just on a practical level, Jarvis, how do you find quiet to meditate? Good question. Learning how to be quiet was the first step I had to learn how to do. It's a learning how to be quiet. I mean, that was hard. It's hard to do. You know, just with me. I'm 18, 19, 20 years old and you tell them I'm being quiet.

That's what's very, very hard for me to do. So I end up having this connection to a Buddhist community up in California. And they showed me how to meditate. I mean, there was so many lessons that I got one of the biggest ones, when they told me to, my teacher, my teacher, I'm going to do a repressions. We love to meditate at airports. And I thought that was really big stuff. I don't like it much enough to hear them, but if he can meditate at a airport, then I'll

have no excuse for learning how to try that same thing in-person. And the visibly I got to that point where I can hear all kinds of noise, but I can ground myself into my own space, my own silence. I don't try to ground out the noise. I know it exists. I know why people are yelling. I know why people are talking real loud. I'm not attached to the noise.

Noise is not something that really breathes inside. And at least this kind of noise, person that annoys. I just got better and better at it. I knew the noise was not going nowhere. And I knew I didn't want to go where the noise go. So I just learned how to sit and meditate and find my own space. Not that, you know, I was meditating to the point

where I wasn't being disturbed. I didn't feel irritated by it. I did, but at some point I just kind of like dissolve that. And being a solitary confinement at that time, you get the help. You do get the help because you isolate. You have 60 seconds remaining. Sometimes you can barely hear people. Sometimes you behind one door, another door, and another door. A lot of times they would throw me into these quiet cells, filthy quiet cells.

I learned how to clean the cells up in this and down in meditate. The last time I survived. That's just global challenge. You have a pretty cool tone. Coming up, Jarvis talks about his meditation practice. You'll hear him reference to Tibetan Buddhist practices, Red Tara practice, and Vajrasatva practice. We also talk about his off-the-cushion practice of engaged Buddhism with his fellow inmates,

and how he prepares for the possibility of release, and for the possibility of execution. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on Page Six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellissi. And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wonder E's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud. From the build up, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feuds say about us?

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Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondering app. To accept its call, same or die of five now. Hello. Hi, Jarvis. Thanks for calling back, really. Appreciate it. What does your daily meditation practice look like? I used to meditate early in the morning when I was as

high-octarian confinement. I don't do that now. I do everything mostly in the evenings because I'm not being called for a visit. I'm not being called because I have a legal call. I'm not being called because people up and down the tiers call me. I have one or two legal spiritual practices.

One is the red chart practice. The other is the Roger broad just offer practice, but I don't really go outside that space. I still my own lane. I know a lot of Buddhists, and they can go really deep into the Buddhist practice, and all the various levels of Buddhism, and they are well studied and all that. But for me, I never pinch those communities where Buddhism is study more so as an academic approach to understanding the nature of your mind. Buddhism doesn't have that kind of structure in prison.

There is no song about community where everyone come together and they speak of what they have gotten or trying to get to in their practice. That does not exist in San Juan. I just want to make a difference. I don't want to be a monk. I don't want to be anything that keeps me sitting down for too long. I'm more engaged, I'm more active, that's my true path. So what kind of specific meditation do you do when you practice in the evenings? Well, when I do my practice, I sit down and I stay quiet for as long as possible.

And then I would recite the red tar practice and become more active, you know, my own mind around that concept, until it kind of dissolves. And I'm just sitting here and I'm with my Mala. And I'm just dedicating my practice to the benefit of other dance around me. And that's basically it. There are times where I do get serious, I mean, more serious where I might meditate for four, five, six, seven, eight hours. That has not been the case of recent, but I think what I do is really, really preparing me

for some other form of Buddhism that gets more deeply involved in active in communities, outside prison. That's where my mind is at. I really wanna go to the juvenile halls. I really wanna go to the camps. I really wanna go where people from them are hurt, Buddhism as a concept. That's my whole thing,

because I just wanna reach people. It sounds like you're describing a kind of Buddhism that is expressed through meditation, yes, but largely through being a productive, constructive player in your environment. Right. They call it engage Buddhism. I like that. Some people can sit for days and days. I have a reader for sitting at home. So I'm more of a engaged type of Buddhist because I know in prison where those people are, that you can make a difference.

My whole thing is trying to keep it real with the people you talk to. You know, it's not just inmates, that's guards too. This idea of reaching people, you've come back to this repeatedly in this discussion. That seems really important to you. That is my practice. Coming, I'm meditating and I do my mantras and I do what's necessary for me to stay on track. But my whole thing is I feel like my Buddhist practice has given me the opportunity and the gift to speak directly to people, for the of health and meal. And at the same time, I'm helping myself by doing it. But

I kind of disguise it. You know, I don't go out saying I'm a Buddhist because I know it wouldn't work for me. If I was in for me, I just trying to find a place is where it worked. What message generally works? Being real with the person. There was a maybe five, six, seven years ago somewhere around there. It was this guy. We've been in prison almost the same time. I may have been here maybe four or five years before him.

He just came up to me and he says, man, I'm done with this shit. And I tell him, I am too, but we just have to do with it. And he said, no, I'm serious, man. I mean, I got my daughter who just moved out here and she knows I have no one, but she sacrificed her whole life. And she's not going to move, man. I make Tom tell her to go on with her life, but she's not going to move. So I say, what are you going to do about it?

He said, man, I'm done it. And I looked at him and I knew exactly what are you going to do about it? He said, man, I'm done it. And I looked at him and I knew exactly what he meant. And I knew it was serious too because there's just a certain eye contact. You get to someone where there's a moment of fear in his eyes, but it's the kind of fear that would just overcome himself after he does the act. In this case, after he kills himself. I just knew he was serious.

You know, he didn't start making up all these reasons for why, you know, this is not right and all this, because he's been here so long. He had every answer to everything I came up with. He had every answer. And in some ways, he may sit. So I felt like I was just repeating things as he knew I was going to say. It was as if he prepped himself before he'd start talking to me.

So I got really pissed off at him, because the first thing I thought was, why are you telling me this? You don't need to tell me this. You can just do it. But then I said, I said, you know, once you just wait, I said, just just wait. Man, wait a week. Wait a day or something. You're going to do it. You can wait a week. Just wait. And he gave me that. He gave me those three or four days that I was asking to wait.

And when he came back, he was a whole different person. It was just so many things he needed to do. For example, he needed write a letter to explain what he was doing. And he wrote this half, half letter that didn't make no sense. So I got the letter, I said, now let me read this to you. Let me show you what you wrote.

And I read it, and he didn't make no sense at all. But, and I said, this don't make no sense. I mean, what was this? You know, I read it to him again. And then I read it to him again. And it became more hilarious at one point. He said, you said, yeah, you asked me, you said it, it says right here.

And I said, man, oh, this shit away. Just doesn't make sense. If you try to explain this to anybody, they just don't thank you all share my. Maybe an hour later, he was on the yard and I sitting over here to the toilet and he flushed it. I cried like a baby out there on that yard because I knew I didn't have the words, but I had his relationship that made the difference. I didn't have to have what the Buddha said that I could quote. It wouldn't have made a difference.

It was just cult-fating relationships and being real with the person. You know, one I think that's it, maybe a week later was that life is a lot more serious than what you write about man. You know, that letter is a lot more serious. And that's when I felt like the Buddhist and me really spoke. I told him, you know, you don't create a ripple through your whole family. And he thought, but I also know that you would never think about that anymore. So that was very important to me, and I think about it all the day because I think, you know, it's all about cultivating relationships, you know, allowing yourself to be heard. And I don't drop Buddhism on everybody.

If I can walk it, if I can talk it, if I can live with it. And I don't need to say it. And that's the beautiful thing about being a Buddhist. You don't need to claim it. You don't need to own it. It's a company you. I find that happening to me almost every day. Do I get upset? Do I get angry?

Yeah. A lot. A lot of times I do. But a part of my practice is understanding my own self-suffering and how that all self-suffering can come poison. And that poison can really, really tear you up. So understanding my own anger and seeing it as a gift to realize, to acknowledge helps me out a lot. It's not a cure, to acknowledge, helps me out a lot.

It's not a cure, but it really helps me out. Let me say if I can state some of that back to you because I think it's really important and beautiful, actually, that in some ways, in your meditation practice as you become more familiar with the difficult parts of your mind, your anger, whatever else comes up for you, that as you can be increasingly at ease with your own churn and chaos, that gives you more availability, more bandwidth for other people.

And you don't need to spout Buddhist scripture at these folks, it's just that they sense from you a kind of realness that allows you to work with them and help them without having to claim any religious cloak. Absolutely. Travis, you talked earlier about anger. Is that something you see coming up a lot in your mind and meditation anger and what is the anger about things that happen to you on the day to day or the fact that you're at San Quentin as somebody claiming innocence?

You just said it on the notice, Pete. Here, where I don't belong, that's where a lot of mine come from. Now, how do I get rid of this anger? I think what I do, it get rid of it, is just acknowledge that I have it. Now, try to think that I don't have it. I do have it. And to just acknowledge it exists, makes me look at it in a way where I can justify this. Stuff if I really wanted to.

You know, this is me talking to myself. Thank you to myself. I can justify this stuff if I really wanted to. You know, this is me talking to myself, thinking to myself, I can justify this stuff if I really want to. I have a life as anger. I mean, I can get away with telling everybody that I'm making, you know, I'm pissed off, and I don't give a damn in all these things.

Because who can do all this time for nothing? But can I also fill the other end of that? That's not an authentic, because I'm not angry that way. I don't need to be this way or that way. Oftentimes, I think a people be afraid to be able to freeway the traffic is too long. And now they have to sit there for three hours. Now, that's the kind of anger I don't understand.

I don't understand that. But it's real for people who have to wake that obstacle. So it's just acknowledging that I do have this streak of anger. I do get angry, just knowing it feels right. But it doesn't feel like it's right. And I don't know anybody if we don't get angry. So it's not like there's a point where at some point my life, I'm never gonna be angry, I'm never gonna be frustrated,

I'm never gonna have all these problems going on in and out of my head. It occurs, it happens. It's just acknowledging it and seeing what comes up when it does come up. Always like looking at it. After I get rid of it, I like to look at it. See where it could have went.

And it's like one of those, ooh, this could have went all bad. This could have went really, really bad. And that's one of those stories I like to tell people when I'm writing people off there. The only chase two seconds for your whole life to be what you're living and being on death row. Two seconds, that's all it takes.

So being angry can be really, really poison. But back to your question. I guess, acknowledging, you know, I just say, okay, this what comes up with me about this right here. And just giving it, it's five minutes or 10 minutes or hour, two days, whatever. But it's not you. It's not you. It is all, you know, it

can get rid of itself. But that's a real anger that comes from me. Are you optimistic that you'll be able to get out? Out of prison? Yeah. I do, but I also know that I can't just stay on the fence waiting. What I have to do is live, exist, breathe in the middle of both for those possibilities. I have to be in a position where I can't lean to the yes, it's gonna happen or it's not gonna happen.

I have to find me being able to communicate both sides of this. And I give it to my Buddhist practice that I know how to do this, or it's a practice to do. You know, I think if I didn't have the Buddhism, and I was properly crazy working on this kind of stuff, but accepting the fact that both possibilities are likely to happen one or the other, you have to start feeling that out. You know, feeling what comes up for me when if I lose and what comes up for me. If I don't, you know, I have to develop a relationship with both of those possibilities, both of those outcomes. This call and or telephone number will be monitored and recorded.

I know a lot of people said just focus on the positive focus on the positive focus on the positive No, I can't focus on just the positive. I got a focus on what happens if I lose and then I buy for sale after being here 42 years and To be totally honest with you on this And I say totally honest because it's not really totally understood by me. It's more of a silly. There's a certain degree of fear on both sides of this. The fear that actually getting out is terrorizing.

The fear that I might lose my appeal is absolutely terrorizing. They both share the same emotion. They both share the same emotion. They both share the same conclusion one way or the other. When I think about getting out all kinds of stuff comes up for me. You know, like, what's next? After that, you have no more aspirations to be freed. Now, yeah, out here, now what? You know, you'd be in the other end, will I eventually be executed for something I didn't

do? And what did they know? Like, who else could you have helped you in the corner you have with the people you have? That's going to be better than your lawyers now. You know, you're an investigator now. You're family now, you know? So I live with both of those very, very real fillings. And maybe in Buddhism, I don't know, says you post a, you know, kind of like dissolve those fillings,

don't let it tear you up, find your center. Oh, I don't know. I need to fill those fears. I need to feel those fears. I need them. They are necessary because that's being real and true to me. And in a way, if you got both of them going at the same speed, you tend to sleep better. You tend to feel more relaxed because you're not going to be hoodwinked by one or the other. You've got both in your sights, and you've got both in your heart, and you've got both in your conversations with people, friends, family. And that's a good thing for me. There's no better person that I want to be than me. I would want to be no one else but me.

And I say that because I just feel blessed in many many ways, you know, I feel truly blessed by my life. And you know, it's hard for me to say that because I know ain't nobody gonna get that. Very few people would get that. I remember when I got COVID and I was really, really sick. I went out to the hospital three or four times, the prison clinic three or four times. And then the last time I went to the prison hospital, he gave me a prescription of medication to take, and I said, okay, I got the bottle.

And I read all the things that it said, you know, if he says, if you have headaches, if you got heart problems, if you have cramps, if you have surgery. I mean, they just list the whole thing of symptoms that you have to be careful of from heart problems to asthma, to all kinds of things. And I realize that everybody had to have these things for them to put that on the back of the bottle. And I didn't have none of those things. I didn't have heart problems. I didn't have liver problems. My sight was not impaired. And I started realizing, man, there's a lot of people that got these things, you know. And it was just one more indication than me that I have a lot to feel blessed

by. There's so many things that I could feel good about. And it was one of those moments where I felt really, really sick, but at the same time, blessed. You have 60 seconds remaining. There's a lot, a lot worse scenarios than me. And I think someone asked me how long ago. What is the hardest thing, you know, being in prison? My quick reaction, I thought, is the fact that... Let's call and your telephone number will be monitored and recorded. You know, I'm just glad that I'm not on death row for killing anybody. You have a prepaid call from...

A Jarvis Masters And in NADA, the California State Prison, San Quentin, San Quentin, California Coming up Jarvis talks about his definition of freedom. Hello. Hi. Hi. Jarvis, before I let you go, I'd like to ask you about the concept of freedom and what that word means to you because there is this notion that we can find freedom in any circumstance. And you wrestle with this in your book. You worry that if you feel too free, then you'll stop fighting for freedom in a conventional sense to get out of prison. So how do you think of the word freedom?

That's a really good question. You know, we're talking about my appeal and what happens next and all that. I think I find my freedom realizing both outcomes, not being hooked by one idea there. Right now, today, my freedom is actually realizing that there are two outcomes. And I'm trying to make peace with both of them. And the more I'm able to do that, the more that I'm able to find my own freedom. And another way, taking what might happen with the decision tomorrow or next month or next year, just moving that to the side, what I believe is my way of thinking of freedom is that I'm able to give something back to people.

The more I give things back to people, the more I feel like I am moving the bars, moving the cell, just moving a lot of stuff out the way. I'm just trying to move the bars out the way, move the cell out the way, not be able to be so attached to these things, just moving it out the way not to be able to be so attached to these things. You know, just move it out the way. And I think this is not just for me, but I think it's for a lot of people outside of prison. How we move our obstacles out the way. My teacher told me, he said, you know what, I can't put in his words, but he says, don't try to dig a hole under the bar.

I don't try to knock the bars down. Don't try to yell the bars, go away or whatever, just move it out the way, find a way to move it out the way, those obstacles. And the better I get at that, the more I experience my own freedom, to me that's freedom. And I will say that for anybody outside the prison too, I get a lot of, now, and there are people in these letters that have the perfect home. They have to be front, that have to, of course, highway, have the two door garage and the whole innown. But they move to the West Hell having all these things that's not

guaranteed one certain of your freedom. And I was an eye-opener for me because for a while I thought just getting out of prison would be my definition of freedom. But you know, it goes a fill that way to me. If I get out tomorrow, I still have a lot of work to do. If I don't get out tomorrow, I still have a lot of work to do. I know I still have to meditate. I know I still have to do the things I do in order for me to experience my life. It's all about being able to move a lot of things, a lot of obstacles in my life out the way and being able to walk through that.

Rather than I'm going to a visit, rather than I'm writing a letter, I'm talking to my niece or someone. I'm just trying to get rid of the obstacles that keep me bound up. And that's how I feel freedom. Jarvis, let me just say that it's been a pleasure to talk to you, and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Hey, man. Thank you for the opportunity that you gave me to talk about my life and share

some of my few points on how do I make it through. Thank you so much. I hope that a bit of you make the difference in people's lives. I think you will and thank you sir. Alright, thank you. Thanks again to Jarvis J. Masters, really quite extraordinary to be able to talk to him. As a reminder, if you want to learn more about Jarvis, his books, his practice, and his legal case, you can head over to free Jarvis.org.

We'll put a link in the show notes. Special thanks to Lee Lesser, who helped get Jarvis onto our radar and to Max Solomon at Hangar Studios, who helped us manage the many, many technical challenges of this unusual interview. I also want to send a special thanks to Corny Cole, who was instrumental in connecting us with Jarvis and who produced a whole podcast series about Jarvis called Dear Governor, which can be found wherever you get your podcasts. And we will also post a link here. Thank you, Denda Corny.

Thanks as well to everybody who works so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by DJ Kashmir, who's the lead producer on this episode, which was a big lift. Thank you, DJ Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davy Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. Our supervising producer is Marissa Schneiderman and Kimmy Regler is our managing producer, scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

We'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode. We're going to get weird and trip out with the great John Cabot Zinn, the guy who came up with mindfulness-based stress reduction in my opinion, a truly historical figure. He came on to talk about his new book about using meditation and manager pain, but then we went off into lots of fascinating directions, so you'll hear that on Wednesday. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

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