Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 585: Alexander Dreymon (Star of Netflix’s “The Last Kingdom”) on: Therapy, Marriage, Anger, Masculinity, Meditation, and Being Nice (Even If You’re a Viking)

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Alexander Dreymon is the star of a great show on Netflix called “The Last Kingdom.” He plays a Viking, so you're literally not going to find a guy who is more stereotypically masculine. But I've gotten to know Alexander recently and he's also incredibly thoughtful. We cover a lot of ground in this conversation: marriage, parenting, anger therapy, sleep, human connection, meditation, masculinity, and, uh, how to show your body on Netflix without developing body dysmorphia. We also talk a lot about his show, which is awesome, although it is coming to an end — just a few days ago, Netflix posted the series finale, a movie-length episode called “Seven Kings Must Die” that wraps up the whole story. In this episode we talk about:how having male friends makes his romantic relationship even betterThe importance of therapy, of silliness and of kindnessthe importance of exercise in his life and how he tries not to get overly attached to his body looking a certain waya whole discussion between the two of us on the Buddhist idea of non-self what his meditation practice looks like now that he has a toddler around the housewhat it's like to wrap up his show, the Last Kingdom, and what might be nextFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/-alexander-dreymon-585 To join a live coaching session, sign up at tenpercent.com/coaching.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, this episode, this is a fascinating episode. This one started as an experiment and then blossomed into something pretty awesome, in my opinion. Alexander Draiman is the star of a great show on Netflix. It's called The Last Kingdom. On this show, Alexander plays a Viking.

So you're literally not gonna find a guy who is more stereotypically masculine. But I've gotten to know Alexander recently and he's also incredibly thoughtful. I met him because he's now engaged to an old friend of mine, Allison Williams, who's also an actor you might know, Allison, from the recent mega hit movie Megan and also the hit HBO show Girls. Anyway, I have known Allison for quite a while and now she's got a relationship and a baby

with Alexander Drainman. I asked Alexander to come on the show, as I mentioned at the top, as a kind of experiment. It's a little bit of context here. We've been thinking about changing the way we do our Friday bonuses instead of just posting guided meditations, which, by the way, we will continue to do. We're also going to start bringing on different kinds of guests and having shorter conversations about what notable people do to be happy. Usually on this show, we talk to meditation teachers and scientists and occasionally a celebrity,

but we're hoping that in this new, shorter format, we'll be able to talk to all different kinds of people, so athletes, actors, business leaders, you name it, but you're, of course, thinking, Dan, this is not Friday. It's Monday. So what's going on? Of course, you're, of course, thinking, Dan, this is not Friday. It's Monday. So what's going on? Of course, you're right. Initially, I thought Alexander would be the guinea pig for this new Friday bonus format. We're going to play with.

However, as you're going to hear, he was just too damn interesting. So we're doing a full episode instead. We cover a lot of ground in this conversation. Marriage, parenting, anger, therapy, sleep, human connection, meditation, masculinity, and how to show your body on Netflix without developing body dysmorphism. We also talk a lot about his show, which is awesome, although it is coming to an end, just a few days ago, Netflix posted the series finale. It's a movie length episode that wraps up the whole story. If you're going to check it out, I actually recommend you start from the beginning

and watch the whole show because it's really good. And for the record, I like the show before I ever met Alexander. Just one quick note. Since we initially thought this was gonna be part of this new format for our Friday bonuses, I asked him to draw up a list of three things that are non-negotiable when it comes to his happiness.

So that's where the interview starts, but then it just really just goes off in lots of fascinating directions from there. Before we jump into today's show, many of us wanna live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate

to this gap between what you wanna do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course.

Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay. On with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head.

Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Alexander Dramon, welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Dan Harris. So we're deformally bringing you in,

like I've never met you before. All right, we're gonna try something new today. You're very gamely playing Gini Pig, so I appreciate that. I'm very much game for anything you throw it. I appreciate that. So the three non-negotiables for you when it comes to keeping your shit together, let's go through them one at a time. What's number one?

Number one, I think is sleep. Yeah. And some people don't need as much of it. I do. When we were shooting the last kingdom, for example, we shoot on a surprisingly low budget, which means we shoot a lot in a small space of time, but you're kind of constantly on during that time. You don't have much time off. And some people manage to still go out at night and go for a drink and party a little bit. Like for me, the discipline of getting enough sleep

over rules at all, because I know that I can't make it through seven, eight months of a shoot without that. Does it make you unpopular with the rest of the cast and crew? No, we have a great relationship. And it's not like I never go out, but when I can, I do, and I love it. But I only do it when I know

that I can catch up afterwards. How much do you need to sleep? My sweet spot is eight hours. Here's my thing about sleep, because I struggle with sleep personally. I used to wear one of those aura rings and you know what those are. I just got given one and I haven't really explored it yet, but I'm curious.

It's a very cool, and so if anybody from where is listening, I have no disrespect at all. It's a very cool technology, it's a ring you wear all the time and it tracks lots of things about your body. But I found that I was getting really obsessive about sleep and that the obsession was stopping me from sleeping. That makes sense. Does that ever happen to you? that I was getting really obsessive about sleep and that the obsession was stopping me from sleeping. That makes sense. Does that ever happen to you? It can happen when I know that I have to get up, I have something important to do, and I have to get enough sleep. And then you can get into that

anxiety cycle of not being able to fall asleep because of that. However, funnily enough, just because I use the example of filming the last kingdom towards the beginning of my career as an actor, I found that some of the best work I did was when I didn't have enough sleep. Because when you're so tired, you don't really examine what you're doing in the moment and you just leave yourself alone and you just do it. And eventually you learn how to do that and still get enough sleep. But at the beginning, that actually helped, especially for emotional scenes where you can be

nervous about, can you get yourself to that point emotionally where you need to be in order to deliver that can help. Yeah. So being sleep deprived can make you raw in a way that can help you in scenes that if you're fully slept, you might be a little more self-conscious. Yeah, correct. Yeah. There's a very therapeutic quality to doing this podcast because I say things to you and you basically formulated back to me in a way that is more concise and sounds better. I'm like, yeah, that's what I mean. I wish I could have said it that way.

Do you know what that is? Do you know what I'm doing? I know that my therapist does it ever know. Okay. Therapists do it really well. Good therapists do it really well. It's a hack that I picked up. When I say hack, that makes it sound like a manipulation technique, which it isn't. Sure. Although I guess, in a positive sense, it kind of is, but it's called reflective listening. And I learned it because I was a bad listener, reasonably good broadcaster,

but not a very good interpersonal communicator. And so I hired these communications coaches who've actually been on this show, Moodita Nisker and Dan Clermann shut up to Dan and Moodita, they're amazing. And one of the many tools they taught me was something called reflective listening. So if somebody says something to me, not all the time, because you don't want to use it too much, because it can be like a technique, and it could come off as annoying, but not all the time, but when somebody says

something, it feels like either it's very important to them, and I can tell that they want to feel heard, or if it maybe just deserves a little bit more clarification, I will just repeat it back to them very concisely in my own language. First of all, I don't mind it at all. I think it's genius. And I'm definitely going to use it going forward. Use it in your marriage. I'm telling you, in my marriage, it has made a huge difference. I hear my wife talk specifically about this thing, reflective listening, when she tells other people that I'm less of an asshole now than I used to be.

It makes so much sense. And on top of it, it also just clarifies that you've understood the other person correctly. Yes. Yeah. All right. So what's number two on your list? Number two is learning, I would say, learning whatever it is. And however small it may be just getting that sense of achievement and the feeling of self worth that gives you the thrill it gives you. And I think that's also why I love my work so much because ideally you're always being challenged. And when you overcome the challenge you can only do that by having learned something new. And I just know that I'm happier when I learn something.

Somebody on my team, I was either just team or Lauren, one of the producers of my team, was pitching me on a potential guest the other day. And I'm probably going to mangle this, but I think it's close enough. This was a guest who's an expert in memory and also the best ways to stave off decline in memory and one of the most important things in terms of maintaining your memory and brain health over the long term is consistently learning new things. Yeah, that would make sense.

So what do you do, if learning's important to you, what do you do to continue learning? You're you, what do you do to continue learning? It's not like you've got a ton of spare time. You're going to be married, you have a little kid, and you work a lot. So how do you learn on the regular? As I said, learning can be anything. I learn when I practice sports. When I do jiu-jitsu, I learn new techniques.

I learn from my work constantly because every character you develop is going to be doing something that you haven't done before or that you're not as familiar with as you need to be if you're playing somebody who's an expert in that field. You learn about the time period they lived in. You learn about the social norms, the social structure they lived in, the political structure, et cetera, and the physicality of them. So there's so much there, and that's why I feel like you're not allowed to be bored in this world because there's just so much to do, and so much to look at and see for

the first time and take in. You mentioned having a child, like that's a constant learning curve all the time a learning and a relearning because you relearn With them and about them and what's best for them? And you figure out what works what doesn't work. Yeah, it's a constant learning curve I think how old is our low now a year and a half is he talking much? Oh, yeah I only speak French to him because I want him to have that additional language for free. And I heard that it's better if one person sticks to one language. And so he has certain words. He only says in English, certain words. He only says in French, certain words that

he makes up. And you understand, like, for example, his word for music or song is, yeah, you for music or a song is, yeah, you'll, because, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what children, in my experience, will teach you is all of the stuff that you're most embarrassed about and thought you were hiding successfully. They see right through it and we'll call you out on it. You're not quite at that age yet with Arlo, but in my experience, they become PhDs in your flaws. Can you give them an example? Just the other day I was teaching Alexander to do layups in basketball and I was trying to really emphasize to him that he doesn't need to be tentative, he can drive right to the hoop.

And he looked at me and said, you're giving me a boring inspirational speech. I was like, that's what I do for fucking living. And he comes to my lectures with me, and if I'm going to give a speech, he comes with me. So that was a very deliberate use of words because he's basically mocking what I'm doing. But he's also exceptionally smart, exceptionally perceptive. I'm not surprised that he throws stuff like that at you. I don't know if it's because he's excessively smart or perceptive. I don't, it's impossible to measure your own child or to have any objectivity on your own child. But what I can tell you is that he knows how to throw a dagger. Yeah, I look forward to that.

All right, so you were talking a little bit about learning through playing Utret on the last kingdom. And I guess my question for you is how historically accurate is the show? Well, first of all, maybe you could just describe the plot, the basics of the plot for people. And then I'm curious having watched it, is that roughly speaking what was happening at that time in the UK? Roughly speaking, yes. So it's based on a series of books written by Bernard Cornwell.

And it is a story set against the backdrop of quote unquote the creation of England. So during the time of Alfred the Great who is said to have been the first king to have had that vision of a unified England. And in his lifetime, he was never able to realize that vision, but his grandson, King Ethelstahn, made that happen during the Battle of Brunenbörer, which was the last great battle that is set of unified England. And all the battles and all these rulers are historical figures. Utred, as a character, Utrid exists that 200 years later and was actually the lord of Bevinburg, which is nowadays Bambra castle still exists.

But so during that time he is a fictional character and the story is told through his eyes. So roughly, yes, it's historically accurate, but there are of, a lot of liberties that have been taken in the way that Utrecht is weaving in and out of that story. Very skillfully, I think, the liberties, because it feels, I don't know, anything, but it feels real to me. The story is clearly fictional, but when I'm watching it, it feels like I'm watching

something like a document of that period of time. Just for the listeners who are unfamiliar with story of Alexander's character, Utred, is that he's born from British parents. Yeah, he's raised by his sex and raised as a dane. His biological parents get killed by Danish invaders and he gets kidnapped, but then becomes part of that family, and is raised as a dane and believes in the Norse gods and this whole battle between Christianity and paganism. That's also one of the major themes of the series.

I have a million other questions about the show. I want to keep going with your list, though, and we'll come back to the show just to say I highly recommend it about the show. I want to keep going with your list, though, and we'll come back to the show just to say, I highly recommend it to the listeners. It's been described as the Thinking Man's Game of Thrones, which is an incredibly high compliment because Game of Thrones was amazing. So it is amazing. I'm a big fan of Game of Thrones.

Yeah. I took your, I took your comment in the spirit when she intended it. It's a great show. That's basically my message right now. But anyway, let's give back to your list. What's the third thing that you're listening to? Thank you for the PR.

Yeah, the next thing on my list would be connection, human connection with, first of all, with my partner who you know, Alison. And Alison has something that I see as a superpower. She really taught me this, which is that she has like something I call zero space policy. So I think when you're in a relationship with somebody, it is so easy to drift apart and to have a little thing that upsets you and you don't really voice it, but it stays there and it creates a little bit of a distance between you. And then maybe there's another thing and that distance becomes bigger and also just

whenever something like that happens over time, that little seed just grows into something more mementos anyway on its own. And I'm not saying we can't have space if we ask for it. That's definitely the case. But the unconscious drifting away is something that we work really hard to not let happen. And that has really worked wonders and is definitely the most important factor to our relationship and what makes it work.

This super interesting, I'm going to step gingerly because Alice is not here to talk for something. Alice and you're invited on the show any. I have no one else and for quite a while since she was very young. I remember the first time I met her. She's like in her early 20s. Already very impressive. So I'm not going to ask anything from her perspective. She's not here to represent herself, but from your perspective,

and I think having talked to you off of my personally, we may share a few things in common in terms of how we show up in relationships. Do you ever find zero space policy challenging in that? God, it's excruciating. It's excruciating. It's so hard because especially as a guy, I think a lot of men function the same way. Like when we chew on a bone, we like to do it on our own. And yeah, my default is to just disappear within myself and just take that space.

That's my comfort zone. So working against that natural desire to do that is really hard. And it's also really hard for her to get me back from that space, because you need to be really brave to do that and go into that, whatever it is that's going on. But I sometimes have this dark force field around me, and she needs to go in there to get me out of it, and she always meets resistance. But of course, with time, we get better. And we know that the solution is not to stay in that space, but to come back because once you're in that mode, it's very easy to just spiral to. Meaning if you

let a little germ of distance take root, it can lead to holistic rot within the relationship. I think so, yeah. And even if it's something that then gets swept aside because you move on and because you tell yourself that it's not important, it'll come back. And then you rehash it when you're discussing a different subject. And it just adds spice to whatever other subject you're discussing. And that spice doesn't need to be there. It's so interesting. Here I go, just making it all about me,

but I'm gonna go there. But at least it'll help you not feel alone on this. When you were speaking in Allison's voice about yourself, she describes you as having this dark force field, I believe was the term I described myself as having that. Yeah, I've heard Bianca say similar things about me. Really. That especially pre-meditation day when I was working a very stressful job at ABC News

and I was way too caught up in the politics of it and where I stood at any given moment, she would talk about me coming home with a scowl on my face. And for her, as somebody who, you know, and I think I can say this because she said it publicly that it's easy for her to be made to feel, especially when she was younger, insecure, right? So she would read the look on my face as a referendum on my feelings about her

when in fact I'm worrying about some shit Peter Jennings said to me at the office or whatever. And I think that we have exactly the same time. Don't tell me. I know exactly what you mean. It's really hard not to take it personally. I've had to really be trained by going to couples counseling and having fights over the years.

I think if I had heard you say what you just said, I don't know, even as recently as five years ago, I might have just gotten defensive. But now I recognize that everything you said is absolutely true. And, of course, the other person not take it personally. It's not that hard. Just calmly explaining to the person what's going on and assuring them it's not about them, it's about you. That's just like human interpersonal hygiene 101. Correct. It's not easy though. Even knowing all of that, it's not easy to do when you're

in a mood. Yeah. Because when I'm angry, I just want to be angry. Yeah. Sometimes I just, I really enjoy being angry. Well, I can see that in your character in the show. Right. He's in pretty constant brooding mode. Oh yeah, that's true. And that wasn't easy. I think I've had a long journey with anger. And I think I didn't really allow myself to be angry much. And that doesn't mean that I wasn't. But I have had a whole journey with my anger and feeling like I'm allowing myself to be angry and that's okay.

What was going on for you that you didn't feel like it was okay to be angry? That's a really good question. I can't really put my finger on why I didn't feel like I was allowed to be angry because I certainly was. But I think I just didn't want to upset anybody around me. I wanted to make sure my mom was okay, but of course it does nothing because people around you can feel that you're upset. I remember when I was I think I was 18 or something. A lot going on in my life other than just being a teenager, which is a weird period anyway, but you know a lot of things that upset me and I didn't talk about them and I didn't let it out. And it was one night where I was in the car and it was raining and I was so upset that

I hit the gas on the car. I was luckily on a very lonely country road. There was nobody else around, but I was going fast. And I knew that it was dangerous. And I knew that it was wrong, but that anger inside me, it just felt so good to let it out. And I was going faster and faster. And then there was a dip in the road.

And as I came out of the dip, the car left the road, just flew up in the air. And when I hit the road again, I lost control of the car and flipped five times and ripped out barriers on the side of the road. The car was totaled. I got out without a scratch. I don't know how, but that was a real wake up call about how important it is to just talk. That's a heroic story. Do you feel like it all got fixed because you learned your lesson then, or is that carried over into your grown-up life? I think nothing just gets fixed. Agreed.

That's the crazy thing. You can live by these rules and by these goals that you set yourself, bodies, rules, and bodies, goals that you set yourself. And you can thrive on that for a period of time. And then you can suddenly forget it. Just like with meditation, I've gone through a period in my life when I was meditating a lot, and I was reading a lot about being in the moment, self-awareness, and all of these things. And it was a time when I had finished theatre school. I was working as a temp. I had very little money. I was not doing the thing that I was passionate about. I was trying to get acting jobs and, you know, audition after audition after audition. I didn't get where I wanted to get. And yet it was one of the happiest times in my life. And I know that. And yet life happens. And you get

busy in a way that you didn't anticipate and you forget to do it one day, and then you forgot to do it the next day. And then suddenly you drift out of it. And you forget about it again. And I think it's very similar with anger management. It's very similar with that space that we talked about in a relationship. All of these things you can know and forget again. And so I think it's so important to either have people that remind you of that. Sometimes it's new people that you meet. You did that for me to a wonderful degree in the last couple of months. And of course, when we met, I just become a dad. So it was difficult to get back into that mode of life right away, but you were a huge factor in getting me back on track in

terms of meditation. So thank you. I appreciate it. But yes, so of course, it was a wake-up call and it did help me to address the problem at the time, but it's something that I keep coming back to. I think you're pointing to something extremely important. I have a whole little wrap on this that I'll give it quickly. And I apologize to the listeners who've heard me say this before, but before you get annoyed, you listener, this is actually something you need to hear a million times. So deal with it. The word that we use currently is mindfulness, but the ancient Indian word in the language of poly, P-A-L-I, that was spoken at or around the time of the Buddha, or at least around the time that the Buddha's teaching was written down.

The original word was S-A-T-I-Sati. And we now translate it as mindfulness, but the original translation of Sati is actually remembering. You can hear amazing podcasts. You can read great books. You can go to an amazing lecture. You can do a whole meditation retreat for 10 days and learn life-changing stuff.

The way we are programmed is to just dip right back into the habit stream of acquisition and competition and distraction and whatever it is. So that's why the Buddha called his teachings against the stream. You need to just keep waking up. So you don't need to have a cart crash per se every six weeks to remember that your anger needs to be let out instead of metabolized in a healthy way. But you do need to consistently practice a bunch of things in order to cut against our habit patterns. Does that make sense? Absolutely. yeah. It makes so much sense.

And a friend of mine literally just spoke to me about this two days ago, about layering habits and connecting practices to habits that you have anyway. Yeah, there's some data around this behavior change. Science suggests that if you want to form a new habit, you can draft off of the momentum of an existing habit. So if you want to start meditating, you might try doing it right after your brush your teeth every night because you can take some of the momentum of the existing habit.

Is that in line with what you were saying? Absolutely. That's exactly what I was saying. And I've been doing this for years with some things. I'm sure we'll get to that later when you said you wanted to ask me about practices that I do, but yeah, absolutely. Coming up, Alexander Drainman talks about how having male friends makes his romantic relationship even better.

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Alexander's a very good student. I asked him, I gave him a annoying homework in advance to say, can you list the three things you do to stay happy? And he listed the three things and then gave me a second list. It's very Buddhist. Buddhists love lists. I've got more on the human connection. So let's do that first, yes. So we were talking about the connection with partner, but there are others that are really important to mention connection with friends. And I think especially as a man, I've been so lucky to have connections or to have friendships with guys in my life that

are we can be vulnerable with each other. And I think that's a real blessing because I think a lot of guys don't get that because of the way they were brought up, because the way they're taught what's okay to do and what's not okay to do. And having guys in my life on whose shoulder I can cry when I need to, has been one of the most wonderful things. And I cannot recommend it highly enough. Because it's one thing to confide into your partner and have that support. And that's when you're in a connected relationship. Definitely the

most important. But I think sometimes it's really important to feel that love from a friendship. Also, there was a guest on the show recently pointed out, and I think there are studies here that marriages do better when the partners have independent friendships because no one person can do everything for you. And so it takes a lot of pressure of a relationship if you've got other relationships in your life where you can work through issues. Yeah, I believe that. And I think one of the important practices is to set time aside to maintain those relationships

because especially in the lifestyle that I think we both lead, we travel a lot. I've moved around so much in my life. And there are friendships that are extremely important to me, but most of the time these people are on the other side of the world. And so setting time aside, not to just text, but also to make the phone call and check in and see how they're doing is so important. And I'm not perfect at that at all, but I certainly strive to be.

And then make new friends, like you, there are certain people that I meet that make me excited about life. And I can't really say what it is, but when I met you, I felt that way. It makes me, it's almost like it makes me giddy inside. It inspires me, it's almost like it makes me giddy inside. It inspires me, it invigorates me, and being open to these new relationships and friendships is really important to me.

And I think one thing I want to add into that category is silliness. It's so important for my happiness, because how certain people bring out certain things in you. And some of the times when I'm happiest in my life is when I'm with people where I can let my guard down be completely myself. And usually when I'm completely myself, I'm pretty silly. I totally agree. I actually, first of all, thank you for the kind words. I feel exactly the same way. And, you know, last night I was having dinner with a big group of friends and exact same way. And last night I was having dinner with a big group of friends and we were being ridiculous, just absolutely ridiculous. And that shit is magic. It is what we're designed for, right? So it's not esoteric magic. It is really how we evolved. And if you

don't get it, even if you're an introvert, if you don't get it in the right dose for you based on your wiring, correct, You are likely to suffer. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I would add, I think to stay connected is the importance of therapy in my life. As an actor, you have a team of people that work with you. You have your agent and manager and entertainment lawyer and publicist. And one of the really important members of my team, I would say, is my therapist and his importance is felt in my work as well as in my private life.

And I think in terms of connection with your friends, with your family and with your partner, having that person to talk to and to coach you to a certain degree is such a huge luxury. This is maybe an unfair question, but it's a brief question with a long answer, maybe an impossibly long one, which is, what do you get out of therapy? I think the ability to reconnect with myself, with the people around me, and with what's important to me. That's what I can tell you when you put me on the spot like that. It's probably something I need to think about longer. When you say reconnecting with yourself where I take it, and this is probably projection, but maybe it's right, is I can say

stuff to my therapist that I can't say to anybody else. And so just putting it out there gets it out of my head, seeing another person be able to handle whatever wild thing I'm hurling at him actually just makes me feel way better. Even if he's not solving the problem. Yes, and that is definitely part of it. And I because of these friendships that I've spoken to you about just earlier, I feel like there's nothing I couldn't say to my best friend. I can't think of a single thing that I could not say to him, however dark or embarrassing it may be, and I'm so grateful for that, and I don't feel like I need my therapist just for that, but having a professional assessment of the situation is so helpful. I think a lot of the things that people struggle with in relationships or just going through

life is childhood trauma and the repercussions that has throughout your life. And so having somebody who can take on the role of a primary caregiver at certain points can work wonders, you know? Having my therapist be able to take the role of my dad at a certain point and say, I'm really proud of you. It makes me emotional to think about it. It means so much when you need to hear that. And so having somebody who knows who knows when you need to hear those things and who can say them to you and same with what we've been talking about anger, like somebody who is comfortable with my anger and who can see that ugly side of me and who still will give me their respect is amazing.

You know, it's life-changing. Nobody has perfect parents. And I know you love your parents. Given that nobody has perfect parents, if you can have a therapist who can step in and make up for whatever deficiencies are there, we're both parents, and neither of us is a perfect parent. So we will have deficiencies too, that hopefully some therapists can make up for it.

They keep me up at night. What am I not doing right? How am I fucking him up? Yes, a lot of things I could say about that, but not about how you're fucking yourself. Somewhere in the last 10 minutes, you said something about men that I just made a mental note that I wanted to bring back up with you I mean, I think you have a very cool opportunity and I've said this to you before but you are in the culture as an avatar Of masculinity you play a Viking Okay, granted technically you're a Saxon, but you're raised by Viking

You certainly look like a Viking on the show. And we live in a culture where it's not necessarily, that's not easy as a guy to step up and say, yeah, I go to therapy. It's really important for me to have male friends that I can cry to as a figure in the culture, as a husband, as a father or a young boy. Do you feel some responsibility to model

a different kind of masculinity, or am I just throwing it at you for the first time? That's a good question. I think it is insane that we are not taught about the human condition and machinations of the mind at a young age. It is insane that this is not something that is part of every curriculum at school.

How certain things affect you and what repercussions they have on your life, on your relationships, how you can project certain things that are really your own onto somebody that you're close to and how that affects them and what repercussions that has on your relationships and all of these things that become clear to you when you work with a good therapist are things that everybody should know about because it would literally make everybody's lives better. It would make everybody's relationships better whether it's on a personal level or at work. So if I can in some way contribute to opening people up to the idea of giving that a shot, then I will very gladly take on that responsibility.

I think it's an amazing opportunity you have. And I'm proud of you to watch you take advantage of it. It's an incredible service you can provide because there is so much emotional stunting among men. Myself included, I'm not saying this with any judgment. That can be counteracted by having positive role models out there in the culture. That's my opinion. I'm not saying it's easy to do, but I think it's important to do. Well, yeah, it's not something that I took a conscious decision of doing.

And you hinted at this when you invited me to the podcast. And I feel very honored by it. But I think it's something that's so important to talk about. And I think destigmatizing that is of ultimate importance. Yeah. I think this interview is going to help in that very regard. So thank you. Great.

You're probably working down your list. Okay. Well, the last point of my human connection list is kindness and the importance of kindness towards people that are in your life, but also just towards strangers. It is so much fun to just be kind to somebody that you have no connection to, that you don't need to be kind to for any particular reason. It's just fun. I can get me out of a bad mood. I can really make my day. It adds so much to my happiness. And I think if you strive to operate with kindness as much as possible,

then you are going to live a happier life because your work environment will be better. And you will have people that are going to support you when you need support. Cannot recommend it highly enough. Kindness is one of these words that it's easy to overlook because I don't know, they needed on to throw pillows and use it as a hashtag on Instagram. And it can come off as it like an empty bromide, but sure again ton of data here the better your relationships the better everything is gonna go for you

One thing I know about you from talking to Alice and is that you'll talk to anybody and you'll make friends with strangers And if you're staying at a hotel for a long time, like you'll get to know the whole staff. And that's a real, I don't know if we could call it a practice. It's just something you do naturally or deliberately. I don't know. I guess what I'm building to here is a question, which is do you ever feel like you need to put up some boundaries? Yeah.

I think that just comes with the job that I do. And I think the more successful you are at that job, the more boundaries. You have to put up and it's a sad fact really I'd like to not have to do that but I think boundaries are extremely important in all aspects of life. If you're not conscious of them, you don't know when they're overstepped and once it's too late and it happened, then it's very hard to come back from that. So you've had moments where maybe you let people in and it didn't go well. Yes. Yes.

He's giving me a look that says, I'm not sure I want to talk about this. Yes, it's fine. That suffices isn't an answer. Yes, I've made some poor choices with very good intentions. But to be honest, I don't know that I wouldn't do it again because I think what you can reap by sewing seeds of kindness is worth every defeat that you can encounter a long away.

I completely agree. I've had the opposite problem, which is that my inclination is to be frosty, and so I've had to unlearn that, or I'm trying to unlearn that. The more I unlearn it, the more I see how correct you are. And again, the more I have scientists on the show talk about the power of what one scientist I believe is Barbara Fredr Singh talks about the power of micro interactions, that if you can pepper your day with positive interactions with your barista or just a cab driver, whatever it is, that will have a measurable impact on your happiness.

And I think you're doing it naturally. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's not a conscious decision that I took. I just do it because it's fun. Coming up, Alexander talks about the importance of exercise in his life, how he tries not to get overly attached to his body looking a certain way, even though he has to put his body on camera, which leads then to a whole discussion between the two of us on the Buddhist idea of non-self. We also talk about what his meditation practice looks

like now that he has a toddler around the house and what it's like to wrap up his show, the last kingdom, and what might be next-term. What might be next-term? All right, I want to actually ask you about exercise, and I was exercise on your list of practices. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, okay. I told you before we started rolling that, I just picked a random episode last night

just to get myself back into The Last Kingdom, and there's some scene where somebody throws some water at you to wake you up out of bed. And you're not wearing a shirt. And you have like a 24 pack. And I guess my question is what is your exercise routine look like? And how do you not get into body dysmorphism and getting overly neurotic or obsessive about how you look, especially since you're going to be filmed and put on Netflix. I got to say I'm really lucky in that area because I really enjoy physical exercise and I really enjoy eating healthy foods. I don't have to make myself do that.

That's a huge plus. Of course, there are so many days, especially while I'm shooting the show when there's so little time and when I'm exhausted. And then I have to force myself to work out, but I really just have to force myself to start. Once I get started, I feel joy. I get it that you feel joy when you're exercising and that you don't mind eating a bowl of kale on the regular. But if you're exercising in that you don't mind eating a bowl of kale on the regular. But if you're going to be filmed with your torso uncovered, how do you not get obsessive about how you look? And does that not set you up for struggle as you get older and inevitably the body changes?

That's a really good question. I had end of 2018, I think. I had a sparring accident and I bent my leg the wrong way at the knee towards the side and I had to get a meniscus surgery. And so during that time, the physical side was just gone. I couldn't do anything for a certain amount of time. And I really had like a bit of a reckoning with myself because it's so part of my identity. I really ask myself like,

if I'm not my body anymore, what am I? You know, it's a, that's a deep question. It's a bit of a deep question, but it's an important one to ask yourself, I think. What am I if I'm in an accident and my face gets damaged, distorted, can I still do my job? Do people still feel the same way about me? And in the end, you're going to lose it anyway.

Exactly. And so if you don't want to get into this space of where you're not comfortable growing old, you're going to have to find some other stuff that you can hold on to. And so I saw a video once of somebody whose name I can't remember who who said what defines you what are you and this person said well It's easy to think that your your thoughts and feelings, but your thoughts can change your feelings Change by the minute you're not your body because I think it takes about seven years for every single cell to be replaced in your body so You are physically not the same person you were

seven years ago by any means. The only thing that is constant is your awareness. Hearing that was really important to me because I grew up in lots of different places and with different languages. And so it feels like I've had different lives. And sometimes it's really difficult to reconcile these lives and realize that they're all the same person that this was all me, because sometimes I think back to when I was a kid at some point, and I'm like, this world is so different from the world that I live in now. How is that still me? But then when I think back to my awareness, I can connect with that, and it gives me that

through lineback. I think that's why it's so important to practice mindfulness because it brings you back to that, which is really all you have. For sure. And this is where things get really weird and I have not really had this experience that much, but if at the deep end of the pool of mindfulness, you'll see that you don't even have awareness, that there's no continuity to that either. Oh my god, I'm not there yet. They call that the rolling up the Matt's stage because it's terrifying.

And I think you can get to that realization pretty quickly if you take a large enough dose of psilocybin or celesty, you realize that there is no Alexander, you can put your finger out. There is no cord, not good of you. And sometimes that's called ego death. That's a very terrifying realization. And have you had that? Have you felt that? I had it when I was my first panic attack ever, it was when I smoked, I smoked weed when I was a kid and I was, remember being in high school and smoking weed and every once in a while, it was like Russian roulette

when I smoked weed, sometimes it was fine. And then every once in a while just realized that the insubstantiality of my ego and how right now it's now, but no now it's now, and now it's now, and there isn't anything to hold on to. I don't know if I'm even articulating this correctly, but that was totally good what you mean. Yeah, that terrified me.

I've had, as a grownup on meditation retreats where things slow down enough and you were actually paradoxically chatter slows down in your mind, but your ability to notice all of what's coming through your senses speeds up. So it feels like you're really able to notice hearing, seeing, smelling, thinking, very rapidly. You can see how rapidly your mind is cycling through all of these inputs. In other words, I've been on meditation retreat for seven or eight days,

and I have a moment where the chatter really comes down and I see how rapid the mind moves, how quickly everything's changing, there can't be some solid me because everything's changing all the time. And seeing it in that context in my late 40s or early 50s and not stoned and I've spent seven days to get to this point is a little less terrifying. But for some people, even that can be, and maybe they're just seeing it in a more vivid way than I've had the luxury of seeing it. But for a lot of people, that can be terrifying too, because you're just seeing that the one

thing you thought was solid, your sense of self, that's a whisp too. That's like, as the Buddha would say, a bubble on a stream. What did you get after that? There's just great story about, I think it's a great story. It's a zen story about this old Zen monk who's been meditating forever and he's not yet enlightened. He decides to go up onto the top of a mountain and meditate till he gets enlightened. And he's walking up the mountain and some older monk is walking down and the older monk is enlightened and he's carrying a bundle of sticks and the the unenlightened mug says to the unenlightened mug, what's enlightenment like?

And the guy drops the bag of sticks, letting go. And then the unenlightened guy said, well, what's next? Which is basically your question. And he just picks up the sticks and keeps walking. And what I take from that is, you see the illusion of your ego of the sense of self. In my case, it's not an abiding, permanent

vision, like I forget it all the time. But the point is to go back into the world and be less of a dick and to help other people. So that's my reading of that story. And that's, I think my answer to your question, but I don't know if that's does it. Okay. Answer my question. Okay. Thank you. The point is if you can see that this ego that's giving you so much suffering isn't real, then you don't have to suffer as much. Right. And what do you do after that? You help other people suffer less.

Yeah. That's my rough understanding of Buddhism and I'm not sure. Thanks for that. Hopefully it's accurate. So are you meditating with some regularity? I am. Yeah. I haven't been able to integrate it into my daily routine to the extent that I would like

to do it. But basically every time that I wake up before my son does, the first thing I do is meditate. Once he's up, there's no meditation. Except if you're awake and aware while you're playing with him. That's the next thing I was going to say. Actually, that is for the likes of down breathing, all of these things we've talked about, type of meditation. But then the other type of meditation,

and this is again something that I have you to thank for, is just making a point of doing it as much as possible throughout the day, and actually doing it with my son is bliss. So during that time that I talked about earlier, I used to start every day with meditating. I always made sure that I had a flower in my room of some sort. One of the meditations I did was just looking at this flower on a macro level and just taking it all in, and doing that with my son sounds creepy. But it's so blissful because first of all it's so easy to see the beauty in a child. But then they also teach you so much about that the other day he woke up from a nap and he is a psycho about sleeping without any light.

And so we were traveling and we had done something which we used to make fun of other people for but we had to trash bags over the windows to make sure. There was no light in the rooms I get sleep and the heating vent was on and was blowing out air and a piece of a trash bag was floating a little bit on the window. And he sees it and looks at it and points at it and goes, wow. And seeing that joy in his eyes from that trash bag is just that's all the teaching that you need really, but it is true. If you can go through life with that openness to being struck by beauty, you are in a state of mind that lets in happiness, I think. I had a happiness researcher on the show a couple months ago, Dacker Keltner.

I'll post a link to it in the show notes for anybody who's listening, but Dacker is an eminent happiness expert. And he said, if there was one emotion, you could cultivate that would lead to happiness, it would be awe. So the attitude of, wow, it's like something as N Master might say to you, if you said, what's one word that you would approach life with? Yeah. And one of my acting teachers used to say, let yourself fall in love every day. And it works wonders. You can fall in love with anything, everything, anyone, if you're open to it. I think before I let you go, can we talk a little bit about this series finale? Absolutely.

Yeah. So you've done five seasons of the last kingdom. It's culminating with a movie or a feature length piece of entertainment that's going to be posted on Netflix on April 14, 2023. Thank you very much. What should we know about it? Going back to Bernard Cornwall who wrote the books, The Series is based on, he explains it in a way that I love, which is when you look at Gone with the Wind, you have The Big Story,

which is the war and the small story, which is is scarlet story, and the stories are flipped. The big story becomes a small story, and the small story becomes the big story, and in the last kingdom, it's the same thing. Utrit's story is the small story against the big story of the creation of England. And so the five seasons were about Utrit's story wrapping up, and him getting back his birthright of Beben Burr, this fortress that he fights for throughout the series. And the movie is what wraps up the big story and the creation of England. And it ends with a Battle of Brunenburr, which was the battle which is such a unified England.

I'm excited to watch it. What's it like for you? Because this has been a huge part of your life to have this series wanting to. Obviously, it's been bittersweet because I miss the people that I work with so much. The crew, the actors, the production team, so many of them have become close friends

and I'm in touch with many of them, but we will never be together in that configuration again, all of us. And having that microcosm, that world is something that I will miss dearly. Playing Utred has, as an actor, given me such an amazing opportunity to explore every emotion. A human being can have this guy has gone through everything again and again. I've learned so much from that as an actor about my craft. I've gotten the opportunity to direct, which is a whole other, you know, I've learned a new profession in that time, which I'm so grateful for.

I'm also ready to take on the next thing. I think I've given it the time that it deserved, and I have gotten so much back from it and more, and I think it finishes at the right time, it finishes at the time when I've become a father or when it's a new chapter in my own life. I'm sad for it to end and I'm really excited for the next chapter of my career to start. Let me ask a question that maybe like ties this all together. Maybe it won't, maybe it'll suck, but I'll try. Okay. The driving motivation for Utreta is home. Yes. And a huge part of what we've been talking about today in terms of your driving motivation for doing life better, for being happier revolves around home. And I think I can see it in your life too, the child of divorce, an itinerant actor.

Now you're really settled down in many ways, if not geographically, because I know you may move at some point, but you have a unit. Yeah. And so I wonder if there's something there to riff on before we close. Oh my God, that is so perceptive. My producer gave me the idea. Well, it's so true. I've discovered that there's a very strange parallel in the jobs that I take on in my personal life. And that happens in a way that

that is impossible for me to predict. I have noticed like filming the last kingdom, for example, Utrut has gone through things that are so strangely parallel to what I was going through in my own life at that time. And I could not for life of you tell me which was the chicken and which was the egg, like what came first. And in a weird way, Utritz Journey and his debate and struggle about finding a home and what that means

and what a home is, has been a huge parallel in my own life and has been a huge part of my relationship with Allison as well because the question of whether a home is a physical place or whether it's a person or a unit is something that has been a big topic for us because I've been very used to living a very nomadic lifestyle and And for me, the idea of a home was a group of people that pursued my passion. But I think through Alice and I've learned

that it also needs to be a place to a certain degree. And I think when you become a dad, you have to create a bit of a nest for your child. And I feel very grateful that I've been able to explore that topic so much with this character because it made me think a lot about what it means for myself to have a home and the importance of the different factors in that. And just as he has found a home, like you said, I found a home. It is the unit that I've created and the family that I've created.

And so, funnily, I think Ujrit's story wraps up in him having found a home. At the same time as I feel like I found a home in a solid base for the next chapter in my life, it's a nice place to live it. Yeah, this was really fun. Really fun for me. You crushed it.

Not that you need my validation, but you did a great job. I feel very honored to have been asked to partake in this podcast because I'm a big fan. It's added a lot to my life. So thank you for that. Thank you for letting me. Come on. Pleasure. Thanks again to Alexander. I really appreciate him participating in this experiment. Gone right. Thank you to you for listening and thanks most of all to everybody who works so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Tara Anderson Go Tarish,

took the lead on this episode on short notice. So thank you for that Tara. Gabrielle's document DJ Kashmir, Justine Davy and Lauren Smith are supervising producer is Marissa Schneiderman and Kimmy Regler is our managing producer. Scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio, we'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode with Dr. Gabor Motte. Hey, hey prime members, you can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.

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