Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 595: The Selfish Case for Being Ethical | Eugene Cash

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Virtue is a tricky topic. It’s often sold to us by religious leaders who are thundering judgmentally, and sometimes hypocritically, down to us from the mountaintop. But from the Buddhist perspective, there is actually a deeply self-interested case for ethics and virtue. The Buddhists are not trying to get you to follow a bunch of very specific rules: they are trying to get you to do no harm because that will make you happy.  This is part two of our series on a venerable Buddhist list called the Noble Eightfold Path. The three middle items on the list all have to do with ethical conduct. They are: right speech, right action, and right livelihood.  Our guest today, Eugene Cash, is gonna talk about this stuff in super practical, non-dogmatic and non-preachy ways. Cash has been a Buddhist teacher since 1990. He's the founding teacher of San Francisco Insight and a senior teacher on the Spirit Rock Teachers Council. His teaching is influenced by many streams of Buddhism— Theravada, Zen and Tibetan. In this conversation we talk about: How to make terms such as virtue and ethics more attractive to skepticsEugene's case that being ethical is in your self-interestHis idea that kindness can actually be hard-nosed and toughHow the Buddha could be hard on people when it was helpful for those peopleHow to use right speech skillfullyWhy he says that practicing right action all day long is his idea of fun The technical versus the holistic understanding of right livelihoodThe difference between “being present” and “presence” And what has kept him devoted to the eightfold path for so many years  Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/eugene-cash-595See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. Virtue is a tricky topic. It is often sold to us by religious leaders, thundering, judgmentally, and sometimes hypocritically, down to us from the mountaintop. But from the Buddhist perspective,

there is actually a deeply self-interested case for ethics and virtue. And as you will hear, this approach is quite flexible and open to personal interpretation. The Buddhists are not trying to get you to follow a bunch of very specific rules. They're trying to get you to do no harm because that will make you happy. This is part two of our series on a venerable Buddhist list called the Noble Eightfold Path. You can think of this list as a kind of recipe of eight practices that will get you toward enlightenment. To put it in a way that will appeal to skeptics, people who aren't sure that enlightenment is a thing,

you could just think about this list as a bunch of ways to help you do life better. The three middle items on the list all have to do with ethical conduct. They are right speech, right action, and right livelihood. As you will hear, our guest is going to talk about this stuff in super practical and non-dogmatic, non-precheat ways. Our guest is Eugene Cash.

She's been a Buddhist teacher since 1990. He's the founding teacher of San Francisco Insight and a senior teacher on the Spirit Rock Teacher Council. His teaching is influenced by many streams of Buddhism, Teravada, Zen and Tibetan. insight and a senior teacher on the spirit rock teacher council is teaching his influence by many streams of Buddhism, Teravada, Zen and Tibetan. In this conversation we talked about how to make terms such as virtue and ethics more attractive to skeptics, Eugene's case that being ethical is in your self-interest. The idea that kindness can actually be hard-nosed and tough, how the Buddha could

be hard on people when it was helpful for those people, how to use right speech skillfully, why he says that practicing right action all day long is his idea of fun, and the technical versus the holistic understanding of right livelihood. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping

our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos.

To access the course, just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay, on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad.

Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from, MySpace? Listen to Baby This is Kiki Palmer on on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Eugene Cash, welcome to the show. Oh, hey, Dan, good to meet you, good to be here. Like, Wes, glad you're here. This interview is part of a series we're doing on the Noble Eightfold Path, and you're gonna talk about three of the items on the list of eight that are often described as kind of the ethical piece.

So we're gonna talk about words such as virtue and ethics today. And I have the feeling that for many people these words can be provocative because so many of us have been on the receiving end of moralistic, moralizing lectures from religious hypocrites. So, how can we make these terms, terms such as virtue and ethics, attractive to skeptics? I think it's helpful to remember that the words have a meaning that may not be related to any hypocriticism, as effort, good work. And really what I mean by that, like the word virtue is a beautiful word and understanding

and Buddhism because it's really about harmony and being virtuous with what's true, being in alignment with the truth. And again, with ethics, I feel very similar that ethics are about creating harmony with oneself and others in a way that works and in a way that's real. It's not about doing the right thing. It's about doing what's needed and what's true in the lived moment. It's not just a set and stone ethics. You know, most of the time, it's really ethical to say the truth. But sometimes it's not ethical to actually say what's true. It's not the right time or the right place. I'm hearing, and this may be, maybe I'm reading too much into your

utterances here, but I'm hearing possibly implied in what you said that one way to make this attractive to people, the otherwise fraught notion, such as virtue and ethics, is to point out that there's a no small amount of self-interest in this. Totally. You're very good. Give you an A on that. Now, really, because it is, it's about what's true here and what really matters to us, what do we care about and especially if you're studying Buddhism or studying meditation or you're trying to learn what it means to wake up, that's all about your self-interest. And the beauty of it of course is self-interest doesn't stop with oneself. Self-interest includes everyone's interests because we're all here together, like it or not.

I was just thinking about this today. There are so many bugs in the software of Homo sapiens, but there's this incredibly elegant feature, which is that in light and self-interest, doing what isn't your best interest in the most elevated sense of the terms of interest is a win-win proposition. Doing good for others is good for you. Totally. I mean, it's just how couldn't it be good for you?

That's the other way is to look at it from the other side. It's not good for you to be kind to somebody. If the kindness makes them feel better, so they're easier to be around, they're nicer to relate to, they do their work better, whatever it might be, or they take care of themselves and their family better. How can't that be good for all of us? This may be redundant, but I think one objection people have among, perhaps many, to the idea of ethics or virtues, such as compassion is that, well, we live in a deeply unethical, un-virtuous world. So if I try to be ethical and virtuous or compassionate, I'm at a disadvantage against

all of the bad actors out there. I'm a softie. I would say the opposite is true. The advantage is you're landing in the truth, and there's nothing stronger than a truth. In some places, they say, the truth will set you free. It's just not a Buddhist saying, but it's really a powerful saying. And so there's a difference between landing in the strength, power of truth, and being a softie. And the people who need to act unvirtuously, who need to act uncountly, meanly, greedily, it's because they're totally soft inside.

They don't have real strength. And so they're using fake strength and fake power. I think a lot of people have in their lives people who they perceive to be bad actors, a mandatious, malicious boss, a brother-in-law who's really obnoxious and annoying. And many of us feel this is to be repetitive, deliberately, that we've got an arm tied behind our back if we're going to respond to these people with nothing but kindness. Kindness can be fierce, kindness can be direct. It's much more unkind, not to be real with

people who are suffering from their delusion or their ignorance or their greed. And then the question is how to skillfully be kind, not just be nice. And so I often work with people who ask these kind of questions because this is a really normal common question that everybody has. How do I deal with my mother-in-law? How do I deal with this person and work? And my first question is always, what do you want? And how can you say it in a way where maybe they can hear it?

Just to see what's possible from the direct interaction instead of just feeling like, okay, I'm going to collapse now because I can't deal with this guy. Why can't you deal with this man or woman or person? And then what happens if you become direct with them in a way that maybe they could hear it? And I say maybe because, again, I don't have a set and stone answer, but it's part of

the creativity that comes from mindfulness. If we're really in the moment, more will come to us than just our usual ideas. There's more intelligence here than we know in each of us. And that's partly what Dharma practice begins to reveal to us. There's a great story that Sharon Salzberg, the legendary meditation teacher,

I've heard her tell this story when she was studying in India and somebody asked, what do you do if somebody tries to steal your bag? And the answer was you compassionately give them a whack with your umbrella. Oh yeah, you compassionately smack them with your umbrella and give them all the love in your heart as you hit them. And it is. That's what's needed.

And that's something about really waking up. Waking up is not about being good. It's about being real. It's about seeing what's true. You know, the Buddha was very tough if you read the old scriptures. He was very tough sometimes. He's laughing at people or he's saying there are idiots, these people. And then of course that doesn't get well publicized when you're doing an opening talk for people.

That's not the part of Buddhism that gets put to the foreground. But in fact, he could be very hard on people when it was helpful for them. Yes. There are discourses where he rails against somebody and says, you ignorant man and then holds forth. Yeah, totally. He's tough, but the tough guy doesn't get publicized so much. No, I think Buddhism could use some remarketing in some key ways. Okay, so speaking of Buddhism, so you're going to peel off three of the items on the list

of the noble eightfold path. So before we get into the individual items, anything you want to say to sort of set the stage? Just the eightfold path is a beautiful understanding about what does it mean to practice and to awaken and to live our awakening, that you don't leave awakening on the cushion. It's not just that, oh, we wake up and everything's fine because everything is not fine. But what does it mean to actually live it is what the three pieces you're talking about are about, right?

It's about right speech, right action, right livelihood. Most people are always talking. I don't mean always every moment, but I mean, most people like to talk to other people. Most people act in many different ways. We're always doing something. And then we all need to have some money. We all need to, you know, do something so we can survive. And so those three components are so normal and just woven into our lives. The term that's used is right speech, right action,

right livelihood. And I like the word right. Most people don't these days. It's because of right and wrong. And so people use wise or kind or whatever they're using, but I'm an old school guy. And so I really like the word right. Because if you look up right in the dictionary, at some point, one of the meanings of right means to come into a cord with the truth. That's what right means.

And that's what right speech is about. That's what right action about. That's what right livelihood is about. To come into a cord with the truth. And of course, for your listeners who may not know, one of the ways Dharma is translated as truth. And so coming into accord with the Dharma, with the truth, with the way things are is free. And then living it is really the cutting edge for most of us.

It is for me. I've got a lot of meditation in my life, and it's good, and it's been great. But it's different to be in the world and to function and to talk to my wife when I'm angry or to be really clear about what's appropriate action and what's not appropriate action in any situation. And even right livelihood, I know a lot about right livelihood and technically, I know a lot about wrong livelihood too because I wasn't always a Buddhist and I did some things that in Buddhism would probably be considered wrong livelihood. They weren't that bad though.

I was going to say, were you a gun runner? No, no, no, I wasn't, I wasn't that bad. But I, I, it was back in a different world when things like marijuana were illegal. And I, I was involved in those worlds. And yeah, it was a very interesting world to be in in the old days. Right, but right livelihood doesn't necessarily mean you have to hue strictly to the US legal code, you know, because I could see we're selling marijuana to somebody would be very much right livelihood. I agree. I always thought it was, but you're doing a lot of things that put one oneself and others in jeopardy legally. And so that's not so skillful.

And I think God or anybody Buddha that I never got arrested for some of the things I was involved in. Sounds like you would have been fun to hang out with back in the day. I knew how to have fun. We hit right livelihood, but that's actually the third on the list. Let's start with right speech. How do we understand right speech? What does that even mean? Well, right speech is really very basic speech about being truthful

not lying or not being harsh to people, not gossiping, things like that. That's what right speech technically means. And it's very important to remember right speech is not mindful speech. Mindful speech is another component about speech that's really under the greater right speech umbrella, but it's different because mindful speech is in the first foundation of mindfulness, which is mindfulness of the body, mindful of the posture, mindful of the breath, mindful of the elements of the body, mindful of the activities of the body, and then being mindful of speaking and listening. And so what does it mean to do that?

What it means is to feel sense, be aware of your body right now as we're speaking and listening. You and I. And so there's a kind of different orientation to reality when we sense and are aware of our body as we're speaking and listening, and of course being aware of the other person. And their body, right, because they're also embodied at that time. And of course, you can hear a lot if you watch their body, which you know about as, you know, interviewing people, you get so many different messages by what their body is doing, because body is part of speech, and that's mindful speech. And then right speech is just about being honest and direct and not divisive

of the kind of terms that are used for right speech. And it's very simple. It's not a big deal or anything. It's just what your mother would say. Say what's true. Don't lie. Don't attack people with your speech. That's very simple. And then the depth starts to happen as we're living our lives. And what does it mean to speak in alignment with the truth, rightly, in alignment with the truth in this situation, with my daughter, with my wife, with my friends, with my colleagues, with my neighbors, with people I don't like.

What does it mean to speak without lying by being truthful, not divisive, not abusive, and not being dishonest at all? To be clear, right speech doesn't mean just blurting out what happens to be true anytime you want. I've heard it sometimes described, is say that which is true at the right time. Yes, say what is true at the right time when it's appropriate because sometimes it's not appropriate. Even with people you love, like my daughter, who's a total grown up person these days, so I don't have to be dad very much with her, but sometimes she needs dad and sometimes

she needs for dad to be quiet about what she's talking about, and just listen more deeply, and really get what is she really saying, and what might be helpful, because of course, I'm a teacher, I'm happy to tell everybody everything I know all the time, it's part of my job. But really, the right part of my job, both as a teacher and as a father, is not saying everything all the time just because I know it's true. You know, on one hand, sometimes I'm wrong about what's true. But really the other part is sometimes that's not what skillful, that's not what's helpful, that's not what's actually kind.

I've said this before in the show, but it pairs repeating. We're all talking all the time. Two other people were typing to other people if we're not talking. And at the very least, we're talking to ourselves. And yet nobody ever really teaches us how to do this with any level of skill. And so we're often putting our foot in our mouths or alienating people or abusing ourselves or others. I mean, we're just fucking this up on the regular. I've said that a bunch on the show, and then as I was preparing to interview you, I saw that you quoted some great teacher

who said something to the effect of, we're all enlightened until we open our mouth. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it's great, great quote. I'm trying to remember who said it. I think it was Suzuki Roshi who said that. And it's true. It's a practice right speech. remember who said it, I think it was Suzuki Roshi who said that. And it's true. It's a practice right speech.

That's the other part of the eightfold path. It's not like you just learn the different links of the path, and that's it, okay, right speech, right action, right livelihood. It's a living practice, right speech, right action. These are live in the moment, And that's what's beautiful about Dharma. It's about the reality of now. And even now you're doing your job, you want to do it right. You want to do it so that it's powerful or it's good or it's helpful and it's in alignment with the truth. Because if it's not, it isn't good. If we wanted to make a practice in real life as you're talking about, you know, in the moment of right speech,

any guidance for how to operationalize this in our lives as an experiment over the next couple days? Well, you could do it a lot of different ways. Just be aware of what you want to say before you say it. Don't just say it. Be aware of it first. And then think, do I want to say it or don't? And you have a choice. And that's a certain kind of freedom. And the freedom to say what you want to say, or the freedom to not say what you want to say. They're both part of freedom. And so just do it for one

day. That's a great way to practice. And of course, another one is, you know, don't talk about anybody who's not in the room for a day. Really, I learned this from Joseph Goldstein. And he said that. He said, he did that. He couldn't believe how little he had to say. And so there's so many different ways. And this is part of the creativity of the Dharma. Think for yourself. What would be an interesting practice for me to do for one day with right speech? What if I didn't start any conversation for one day, unless I really needed to? Like, there was something really important ahead, but otherwise otherwise I just wait until the conversation came to me

for one day. And I'm just making this up as we're talking, Brad, I didn't thought of that before, but what I'm saying is think for yourself, what would you do whoever you are out there in whatever land? You know, what would be interesting for you? Or even thinking, oh, how could I say something kind in each conversation I have for one day and see what happens? Because that's a different way of orienting our speech instead of having no guidance, no training, no education about it.

Let's move on because we've got three aspects of the noble eightfold path we want to cover. Let's move on to right action. You have said that of the three. This is the key. Yes, so what is right action and why is it the key. It's a key because we're acting all the time right even right now this is action we're acting. And I don't mean acting like performing I mean we're involved in a functional part of reality. And we're always functioning in different ways. And even if you sit down and meditate, you're functioning then, that's an action. And so that's what I mean by its key

that if we can begin to find some harmony, you know, if we can come in alignment with the truth, which I like to push that part of the right, that is freeing. Because then we're practicing 24-7. And that's my kind of font. It's like, oh yeah, how can I practice 24-7? Now, in this situation, you know,

with Dan talking on microphones and stuff or being recorded or it's when I go to crossfit I had a great workout across fit today this morning that's all practice. I'm acting I'm functioning I'm relating to people to the trainers and stuff and to the other people there and there's a kind of harmony that I love. And that's part of right action. And of course, technically, the basics are about not taking life and not stealing and not acting in ways that harm people sexually. Those are the basics of right action. And so they're considered ethical, as you said, and they're moral, but also

they protect us. As I think everybody knows, if you're going around killing and stealing, it's hard to be peaceful inside of yourself. It's not kind to yourself. Disregarding for a moment, the unkindness to the outer world, to the inner world, there's no peace. You can never really relax. And so there's a kind of inner harmony that we seek. And I believe that draws people to meditation. And so it's woven into everything we do action.

This goes back to self-interest. So many people come to meditation or medication or therapy or whatever it is because they want some calm, they want to relax, they want a break from their anxiety or depression or whatever it is. And it's not the dessert we ordered, but the truth is that actually if you want calm, one huge component of it is don't be an asshole.

You know, if I had a bell here, I'd ring it, dang. So totally don't be an asshole. That's like no brainer to me, but it's not a no brainer to everybody because they've been hurt or harmed or confused or traumatized, you know, whatever it might be. And so they think, oh, that's what you do to survive. You know, maybe it helps you get through something, but it's long term. It's so good to act from your heart, really, from the goodness of the human heart, which,

you know, doesn't get enough publicity down. Here's one of my big complaints. I love to travel. I haven't traveled much during COVID at all. I've done a teeny bit of travel to see my daughter, but I've done travel in my life. And I'm always amazed at how kind people are when you're in another world, you know, I've been to all over Europe and Asia. And how kind people are when you're in another world, you know, I've been to all over Europe and Asia and how kind people are when you don't know where you're going, when you're lost. And people are so kind and so helpful, just naturally. This is not practice or anything. This is just natural good-heartedness for most people and that gets

almost no publicity. What gets publicity are all the wars and all the hatred and all the racism and all the sexism and all the isms and all the other stuff that people do that is mischuguna. Do you know the word mischuguna? Yes, well, I'm half Jewish, so I know a little Yiddish, but trouble making, yes. Yes, mischuguna also means crazy making. Yeah, that's how I know a little Gatorsh, but trouble making, yes. Yes, Meshugunai also means crazy making. Yeah, that's how I know it.

And it's almost a polyward, Meshugunai. It's so accurate. But it's really important to see the good hardness of people, which is here for most people in the world, actually. And that just is a different view than just seeing the duke or the difficulty that people cause. Coming up Eugene Cash talks about why he says that practicing right action all day long

is his idea of fun and the technical versus the holistic understanding of right livelihood. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just gonna end up on Page Six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellissi. And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wundery's new podcast, Diss and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud from the buildup, why it happened,

and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Brittany and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Brittany's fans form the free Brittany movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship. Jamie Lynn's lack of public support.

It angered some fans. A lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Britney. Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app.

You talked about the goodness of the human heart and that can to, you know, the jaded types like me who come out of an industry. I used to be a journalist and we know one of our little catchphrases is we don't report on the plane that lands safely. So to people who come from my got a background, and I don't wanna blame it all in journalism, I think it was hardwired for some measure of hard bitterness. So when I hear goodness of the human heart,

I, you know, it provokes a bit of a gag reflex, but I do think in looking at my notes on you and prepping for this interview, that I think what you're pointing at is a word that came up repeatedly in my research on you, which is realness. Yeah, that's part of the goodness of the heart. I'm going to push on this goodness of the heart thing. Could I ask you a question?

Of course. Do you have a good heart? My answer for a long time would be I don't know or I doubt it, but now I do have confidence that I do and when I am not behaving well, it's because the goodness is obscured. Yes, so you're good. So thank you. So we don't have to downplay the good hardness of humans because it sounds corny or Walt Disney-ous. Which I get that, believe me, I spent a lot of time in New York and New York's tough New York is a no-bullshit city. It was great that way. There were so many good-hearted people in New York

and there were so many people who could be tough and the good-hardiness were in the same people who are also tough at times because there is no bullshit, right? It's like, let's get real. So you said something earlier that I made a note to come back to, which is that practicing right action all day long is your idea of fun. And I'm playing skeptical here because I actually, I think I understand what you're saying, but I could imagine somebody hearing that and saying, well, God, I'm gonna try to, you know, be on my Dharma or my mindfulness or my ethical game 24-7.

That sounds exhausting. It sounds like a bit of an inner nanny state. How is that fun? It's fun because if you really practice 24-7, the practice of both speech and action and livelihood comes out of being present. And where else are you going to be except present? You want to be somewhere else where you are, aren't you? You can want to be somewhere else, but you can be aware of wanting to be somewhere else, which is different than believing that somewhere else is better than this moment, because I

can assure you this is the only moment there is. This is a whole show right now, and I've had a long past. I hope they have some more future, but this is the only moment there is really. And so where else would we want to be? And what does it mean to be in harmony with what's true now? So to bring this full circle, these ethical guidelines are not, you know, things to be acted out in a road manner. They're designed to get you into right now, into a spontaneous engagement with life.

And that's a better way to live, because otherwise you're stuck in the past to the present, which don't exist. Hallelujah. Totally. Yeah, which don't exist, or they exist in our memory or our fantasy, but our memory and fantasy is still right here in this moment. Right. Okay. So let's talk about right livelihood. What is right livelihood? And why should we take it seriously? Oh, again, it's the same principles really woven through all of these, which is about what brings harmony, right? What is livelihood that brings us in alignment with the Dharma, with what's freeing, with the truth? Again, it's very simple. This is very basic stuff, right?

About don't steal or don't sell things that don't belong to you or how can you function in your work in a way that brings more harmony to the world? That's how I would define Red I I believe it. And so there's a kind of letting go of the difficult and being truthful in the moment, in our work, whatever we do, whatever it might be, and work is difficult, whatever it is, even Dharma teaching. It's work. People think, oh, you're a teacher and you're up front, you know everything, and you've been enlightened and all this stuff. And some of that is true, and some of that is just projection. And how to work with the projection is something about right livelihood, not to take it in as if it's the whole truth. And then you aren't just the human being

who's still learning and waking up and trying to be real in my work in giving talks. And of course, I do a lot of interactive interviewing people or guiding people about their practice. And it's a beautiful, alive practice. And teaching is such a great practice and privilege practice, really, because I get to talk about the Dharma, which means I get to learn more about it. But I'm always so grateful to people who are good at what they're doing and do it in a way that's helpful for me personally. Mostly it's about technology.

I'm technologically disadvantaged. And when people are helpful and kind and know what they're doing, I'm like bowing to them. I'm so grateful. And so that's what our livelihood offers to the world, whether we know it or not, when you're doing your job well and you're doing it and it's serving people in whatever way, whatever it might be, a waitress or a waiter or whether you're a cook in a restaurant or whether you're the matri-dee in the restaurant, whatever it might be. There's something good you can give

to the world with your heartfulness and it doesn't have to be tinkerbell heartfulness. And it doesn't have to be ticker, bell heartfulness. It's adult heartfulness, which is another piece to keep unwaving that slightly cynical view about heartfulness because it's really about adult heartfulness, a heartfulness that's based in maturity. So let me restate some of this to you and please tell me if I'm getting it close to right. Right livelihood, we can understand this in a pretty technical way. The Buddha I think was quite explicit about, you know, you shouldn't make a living from killing or selling intoxicants that lead to heedlessness.

I'm being a little legalistic about those words there because some might consider plant medicine to be an intoxicant, but I would argue that that's not an intoxicate that leads to heedlessness or does harm, that it's a medicine. Don't sell things that are stolen. There are some technical understandings of right livelihood, which you touched on. But then there's a holistic understanding, which is how are you doing what you do? Yes, beautiful. You know, and that's the part that I'm pushing. Really? How are you doing what you do?

Again, this is why right action is part of everything, because you're acting in whatever way that your livelihood is asking you to act. What does it take for us to function harmoniously together? And I always like to tell people when I appreciate them. So I live in San Francisco. There's an old army base in the northern part of the city right by Golden Gate Bridge called the Presidio. And it was a military base. And they keep fixing it up and keeping the buildings going because it was built somewhere, especially around World War Two, which is like 70 years ago now, something like that.

And they keep fixing the buildings. And I'm always so grateful to these people who are repairing these old buildings with serve to function for all kinds of good, non-profit organizations, and even some for-profit organizations, but they're good buildings that keep the beauty of San Francisco as it is instead of upgrading everything. And so just yesterday I was there and I thanked the guy and he was so happy to get thanked, but I'm really happy he's doing what he's doing. He's taking out one slap and putting it another and it's beautiful. So I'm continuing with the good hardiness

of what people do and that they often don't recognize it. Coming up, Eugene talks about the difference between being present and presence. And he talks about what has kept him devoted to the eightfold path for so many years. In terms of how we do what we do, we've talked about the benefit of being present, but as I understand it, you make a distinction between being present and presence. I do make that distinction. That's a very subtle distinction for a lot of people. It's one of the things that mindfulness of the body while talking and listening will

start to reveal is the presence of mindfulness. And the presence means it's bigger than the usual way we think about just being aware of something. It means saturating our consciousness with what we're aware of. So we know what we're aware of by becoming what we're aware of. And there's a presence that's bigger than the individual, self-ego identity. And that's what I mean by presence, when I say presence. And it's pointing to what's talked about in Buddhism is a not-self experience or anata. And it's an experience people have that they often don't recognize it. And often what they do recognize is sometimes they're in nature and they feel like it's a beautiful night and the moon just came up and the stars are all over the place and you're out in the wilderness somewhere, not even the wilderness, in the Presidio by the Golden Gate Bridge.

And people say, yeah, I felt like I was one with everything. That's presence. People don't recognize to pay attention to the presence that is one with everything. They're still making it an object they're aware of, which is all good. But then there's one other step you can take is just relax into that, which is one with everything. And you'll start to get a taste of presence. So wait for it in a moment in nature where we're experiencing some awe, where the self starts to feel smaller. It's great to notice it, but there's a way to relax into the experience that you would describe as presence. Yes, right. As we veer toward the end of our time together, is there a question that I should have asked you, but did not ask you? That's a good

question. You know, Maybe here's one response. Is given that you've been practicing for 40 years and done a lot of practice and you've been very devoted to the eightfold path, what keeps you going with the eightfold path? Well, that's good. What's the answer? The answer I learned from a number of different teachers and from my own experience is, it's not over. There's more to wake up, and that goes all the way.

There's so much to learn, there's so much that's beautiful about being human and having consciousness and about freedom. Freedom is not, oh, you get there and you're done. Freedom is you get there and there's more freedom possible or there's more understanding or there's more awakening that's possible. utasia nia who really is so much about continued learning, continued discovery, continued understanding. And of course my dominant approach teacher Hamid Ali who knows a tremendous amount and it's always more, there's always more that he's learning. And really so many other good teachers that I've met. Suzuki Rochie and see other person. I wish it could get him on your show, but he's gone now. But he was always learning more,

he was always waking up more and it was beautiful. If you want a great book from Suzuki Rochie, said mine beginning mine, every few years I read that book, and I always feel like, oh my God, I'm just getting to what he understood. That's what keeps happening, because the understanding keeps deepening, and that's why the path and practice

is so beautiful in my opinion and my experience. I take both of those things very seriously. And I think there are many things many people will take away from this conversation, but the last thing that you said is particularly poignant, powerful for me, which is that I've been meditating for a little bit of time. You've been meditating for quite a bit longer

and there's still more to learn, there's still more to do, there's still more to get out of it. That's motivating. That's my kind of fun. Exactly. Are there any resources you've put out into the world that people can access if they want to learn more from you after having listened to this conversation? They can always go to derimacy and I have, you know, bunch of talks on Dermacy. People can listen to, they could always join by Sunday evening class at San Francisco Insight,

six o'clock Pacific time. And I teach retreats. I'd love to teach live. That please come join us. I teach every year at Spare Rock and come see what happens. Well, put links to all of those resources that Eugene mentioned in the show notes. Go check it out. Go check him out. But for now Eugene, great to meet you and thank you so much for your time. Good to meet you. Thank you. Appreciate what you're doing. Keep putting the Dharma out in any way

everywhere. Thanks again to Eugene. Thanks as well to everybody who works on this show. 10% happier is produced by DJ Cashmere Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davy Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. Our supervising producer is Marissa Schneiderman and Kimmy Regler is our managing producer. Scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio and Nick Thorburn of the Great Band Islands, Rodarthine, we'll see you all on Friday for a bonus. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, hey, prime members.

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