Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 601: Meditation Party with Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren: Psychedelics, ADHD, Waking Up From Distraction, and Singing Without Being Self-Conscious

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Welcome to Round II of the Meditation Party. The feedback we got from our first episode was overwhelmingly positive, so we’re going for it again. Meditation Party is an experiment we’re running with a chattier format – more of a morning zoo vibe, but way deeper, of course. The real agenda here is to show that meditation doesn’t have to be a solo death march; it is vastly enhanced by having friends. Dan’s co-hosts in this episode are his two close friends: the great meditation teachers Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren. Sebene Selassie is based in Brooklyn and describes herself as a “writer, teacher, and immigrant-weirdo.” She teaches meditation on the Ten Percent Happier app and is the author of a great book called, You Belong. Jeff Warren is based in Toronto and is also a writer and meditation teacher who co-wrote the book, Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics with Dan Harris. Jeff also hosts the Consciousness Explorers podcast.In this episode, we talk to Jeff about what it’s like to be a meditation teacher who has ADHD. And even if you don’t have ADHD, there’s a lot of practical value to this conversation, because we all have unruly minds, and Jeff has found some great ways to work with this condition. We also take listener questions, discussing topics like drugs. Specifically, psychedelics — and whether you’re violating Buddhist precepts if you take them. We also talk about how frustrating it can be to repeatedly wake up from distraction in meditation. And finally, we have a segment talking about the stuff we’re psyched about right now… in which Sebene sings for us. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/sebene-selassie-jeff-warren-601See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Yo, we're back with another episode of Meditation Party. This is an experiment. We've been running with a chatier format, more of a morning zoo vibe, but way deeper, of course. The real agenda here is to show you that meditation does not have to be a solo death march. It is vastly enhanced by having friends. Speaking of my co-pilots are two very close friends of mine, the great meditation teachers, are two very close friends of mine, the great meditation teachers, Sebenei Salassi and Jeff Warren.

The feedback we got from our first episode was overwhelmingly positive, so we're going for it again, although we still want your feedback. So hit me up on Twitter or go to our website if you wanna tell me what you think. This time at the party, we're gonna talk to Jeff about what it's like

to be a meditation teacher who has ADHD. This is a huge issue for Jeff, and it was really actually quite moving for me as his friend to watch him open up about this. Just to say, even if you don't have ADHD, there's a lot of practical value to this conversation because we all have unruly minds, and Jeff has found some really good ways to work with this condition.

We also talk about drugs, specifically psychedelics, and whether you're violating Buddhist precepts. If you take them, we actually started talking about that in response to a listener question. We have a whole segment here in which we take your questions, and we also respond to a question where somebody talks about how frustrating it can be to have to repeatedly wake up from distraction in meditation. And finally, we have a segment where we talk about the stuff we're really psyched about right now in which Sabine will sing for us. Many of you are familiar with Seb and Jeff, but for those of you who aren't, Sebine

Salassi describes herself, and I'm quoting here as a writer, teacher, and immigrant weirdo. She teaches meditation on the 10% happier app and is the author of a great book called You Belong. She's based in Brooklyn. Jeff Warren is also a writer and meditation teacher. He and I co-wrote a book called Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics. He also hosts a podcast called the Consciousness Explorers podcast. He's based in Toronto. As I like to say, he's my favorite Canadian. And we actually recorded this interview in Canada in Toronto,

to be exact, we captured both audio and video. So if you want to see the video version, you can go to the 10% happier channel on YouTube. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. One other quick note before we dive in here, Seb, Jeff and I are having so much fun hanging out together that we've also decided to put on a meditation retreat. It's going to be a weekend thing at Omega, which is a few hours outside of New York City.

It's coming up in October, so you've got plenty of time to plan. If you want to go, if you want to sign up, we put a link in the show notes. You can go in person or actually you can sign up digitally and do it on zoom. So again, the link is in the show notes. We will get started with the meditation party right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral?

Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonicle and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos To access the course just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm all One word spelled out Okay on with the show Hey y'all is your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress singer and entrepreneur on my new podcast Maybe this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby This is Skiy Palmer on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast. The seven ex-aliasi, Jeffrey Warren. Welcome to the party.

Thank you, Dan. Good to be in person. Good to be here together. Seeing your faces. This is... We should do this every time. I know. I mean, but it came about because of a rare sort of circumstances. Yeah. You live in Toronto. So that's where we are. Seven A was in Toronto for some personal stuff. And then I was in Vancouver at the Ted Conference and flew here. So the star is aligned. The Canadian vortex.

Yes. Told everybody and gets like whatever the northern version of the Bermuda Triangle, less lethal. Weather is terrible. Yeah, the northern passage. But everyone's really nice. People are really nice with just wife last night. She kept saying, I'm sorry.

A lot of apologizing. Yeah, everyone's favorite Canadianism. Yeah, they were happening. So how do you feel being back for around two? We got a lot of feedback on the first one. And I know I texted you guys, who million messages from people. How did that all land for you, the feedback?

I mean, the feedback was almost all positive and really enthusiastic and that felt great. And some of the critical kind of questions about how we were doing things, the cussing, it's also helpful to hear, we might still cuss. Fuck you, I'm gonna cuss. But I felt really, really good about it. I also felt really just, it was so tender the way we processed

amongst ourselves and what that led to in terms of deepening our conversations about meditation, about awakening, about woo-woo stuff, and manifesting. And just all of it was really powerful for me. It was transformative, I have to say. To see all of these comments coming in, because we got so many comments. The comments and our conversations

about the comments, about our experience, like it was really cool. Yeah, I mean, it's all about for me. Being in a continual process, being in a conversation where you, there's things that you're passionate about and you're continually refining your ideas about it. You bounce off with each other,

and that to me is like I'm just very psyched so we get to do that. And then all the fact that everyone was into it, that so many people were into it. I mean, it's just gravy. How was it for you, Dan? Well, I was going to say I had an observation, which was that I just watching the two of you process this feedback because I am used to feedback. I mean, I've been a news anchor for so long.

I have a Twitter feed. I get a lot of feedback and I've done two, three, 60 reviews like I know what it's like. And so it was interesting because 98% of the feedback, we got a tsunami of feedback and 98% of it was just love bombing. And then there were a few like there was like one person who didn't like us swearing that much, even though a million people said they love us swearing. And then there were a few like there was like one person who didn't like us swearing that much, even though a million people said they love us swearing. And then there were a few like little tweaks about various things. And the two of you, I could see you cotton on to the

to the negative ones. And really like disgust them. And I was like, no, no, no, no, that's the outlier. Anyway, do you think I'm interpreting this appropriately? No, I think you're right. I'm not used to that. So yes, I pay attention. I always ask for critical feedback after I offer anything. I send an anonymous survey and I rarely get anything back. That's a critical and constructive. But when I do, I definitely pay attention to it in a maybe outsize way, like you're saying. Well, I think there's a difference between critical and constructive, or I think constructive is a subset of critical. Yes, true. And there are the critical ones that we got, not all of them were constructive, and I'm

sort of used to now sorting that, but I could see you guys, like, I almost didn't want to send you the negative ones, but I could see you guys, I almost didn't want to send you the negative ones, because I would imagine that there would be a spiral, not a spiral, but that you would really fasten onto it. And it's just, we have a negativity by, so that's just the way it is. Yeah, my experience to that is not that I'm spinning out in some negative way, it's more like, okay,

I just take each criticism, is there a way I can back up and then integrate this? And it comes from when I'm, because I know I have a larger platform and I'm always thinking about how to reach the largest number of people in a way that's gonna make everyone feel included. Anytime I hear a critique, my mind is always like,

okay, well how can I include this person too in a way that's still gonna keep the integrity of what we're doing or what the teaching is, but without necessarily alienating them. So I just see it as like a kind of problem to solve. So that's where I go. But then I guess what it helped me realize is when you're continually doing that, you actually may then lose someone else. You back up to include this person, but then there's this this group over here that falls out. So yeah, it's like they say that the camel is an animal created by a committee. And I'm sensitive to the negative feedback too.

I see it in a register for sure in an outsized way. But I over time have developed some ability, and I can get knocked off my center, but some ability to say, oh yeah, if I take all of this feedback, it's going to dilute what we're trying to do. So if one person out of 200 writes in and says, don't say, fuck, I got to say it. You're going to say it. Well, actually makes me more likely to say because that's my problem is if you tell me I can't do something, I'm going to be more likely to do it.

So I'm the brat at the table. Well, what I was referring to too is kind of our process of what was constructive feedback about mostly ourselves. And I started it with an email just noticing the ways that I held back in our manifesting conversation. And that led to a lot of conversation between us around, look at what does that mean? And what are we not showing of ourselves? Because maybe we're afraid of dance audience not getting us

or I'll speak for myself. But I think Jeff was mirroring the same thing. That was really interesting feedback for me, like that constructive conversation and it led to me coming out as a mystic on my newsletter. I was like really naming some things about myself that I realized through our conversation last time that I wasn't really owning up to.

Yeah, let me just back up for a second because people might not remember the manifestation conversation. So this is the first meditation party you're listening to and you didn't hear the first one. We got a voicemail and we're gonna do some listen recalls in the course of this episode. We got a voicemail about manifestation

which can be interpreted in its most negative as like the power of positive thinking or like that DVD, the secret that tells you through the law of attraction. You can get anything you want through the power of positive thinking or like that DVD, the secret that tells you through the law of attraction, you can get anything you want through the power of your thoughts. And I had a very negative perhaps somewhat dysregulated reaction to the idea of manifestation, whereas Sebin Jeff have a much more open mind about the issue. And actually this is where I thought we get the most thoughtful critiques of me, not of anything you guys did,

that I was perhaps, some people were like, yeah, go get them, Dan, and other people were like, no, I don't think you, Dan, are fully understanding what manifestation is, and that I think we're not going to do it today, but that I actually think is a big discussion we should have on the show at some point. Yeah, just, it's interesting, because I know today we're going to talk a little bit about neurodiversity and there's a term in neurodiversity called masking and it often happens without you kind of know you're doing it. Like there's a certain set of assumptions around say your family of origin and then your culture about the thing the ways you need to be the things you need to think and you just sort of take these on without realizing it and so I think that this conversation partly made me realize that

there are certain ways I censor myself in what I want to say because I want to connect to who imagine this particular audience or a particular person. So if Dan is a really strong feelings about, say, the mystical side of stuff, then I'll a little bit censor myself just to keep in that stream. But actually, I'm doing myself a disservice because what I really believe is it's bigger more interesting and actually would make it for a richer conversation. Yes.

Well, I just want to respond because both of you said something similar there about worrying about what I'm going to think of with the audience is going to think. And I think I'm speaking on behalf of the audience when I say let the freak flag fly, don't sense yourself, do whatever you want to do. I position myself as a skeptic and all that, but I'm here at the table. If I want to ask you some difficult questions, I will, but we should talk the way we would talk over dinner where you would definitely let the flag fly. Yeah.

That idea of masking and assimilation is something we all experience. And so, yeah, this invitation to authenticity is I think a big part of the meditation party, right? Totally, totally. Well said. We're gonna get freaking it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All right, let's dive into segment number one here, which we're tentatively in all of these segment names. We're calling it the ship, where one of us will talk about something going on in our lives that is hard. And Jeff is in the hot seat today. Seb was last time and said some incredible stuff. I recommend everybody, we go back and listen to it.

In order to tee up this discussion with you, Jeff, we ask people to call in with questions and we're gonna do a whole Q&A segment later in the show. But there was one question that actually we wanna play now because it will actually tee you up to talk about your shit. So let's play that question. Hi, this question is specifically or yes. First of all, I just want to say I just think I've been in love with the podcast now. It's been a couple of years now and it's been really instrumental with me as I just developed a better relationship. But my mind I've

actually recently got a diagnosis for adult ADHD and And that's where the meditation is going to go. It's made my life just so much better. Again, something I've been thinking about is meditation for people's ADHD. Your real challenge for me, I think, more so than maybe others to find that calm in my brain to keep my thoughts a little bit more steady to concentrate on the breath or whatever it is. I'm trying to focus on. And so I would just love to hear more about how neurodivergent individuals can still reap the benefits of mindfulness and meditation. Thank you so much.

Yeah. So yes, my brother. Well, we are going to talk about that. Okay. So this is the single biggest issue of my brother. Well, we were gonna talk about that. Okay, so this is the single biggest issue of my life. Being a parent is the biggest issue of my life and the two actually are back and forth. There's this dance, the fact that I have ADHD.

My wife has ADHD and we're strong, ADHD. This is not a little bit ADHD. This is like, I was diagnosed, and I was 32, but it was a joke among my friends. Everybody knew that I had ADHD and I had it since I was a kid and it was the joke among my friends. Everybody knew that I had ADHD, and I had it since I was a kid. And it presents various specific challenges. And actually, the first thing to say about it right off the top

is trying to articulate how ADHD is challenging. And some of the thoughts I have around it in practice, because I spent my entire life thinking about this, actually causes my ADHD symptoms to increase. I've heard people talk about what it's like, but I am most curious about what your experience of it is so that people who don't have this can really understand. In the same way, we've taken a lot of time in our culture to explain what it feels like to be a woman or a black person or what microaggressions are.

So people who don't have that direct experience can really understand what is it and then what challenges does that present to you? Also, what benefits might it bring to you? Yeah. Okay, yeah. Well, let's start here. So, I mean, the first thing to say is there's actually a lot of diversity within ADHD itself. Like, it presents differently in different people. I mean, the two big ways it presents, there's more inattentive way, which actually there's now all this research coming out that a lot of women have an inattentive form of ADHD and that never got diagnosed. It just was kind of flew under the radar. So that's more of the dreamy checked out aspect of ADHD. And then there's the way it presents in me, which is really hyperactive and pulse of jumping around

so that high risk behaviors, you can imagine there's challenges associated with that. That was big time me when I was young. I was a major risk seeker, lots of drugs and alcohol, like all kinds of accidents. I mean, I have something like seven or eight in your death experiences directly related

to just high risk behavior, like insane things, like getting attacked by wild dogs and a giant barf ice with surfers and almost drowning in waves that I should never have been in and falling of a tree and breaking my neck when I was high on mushrooms. And it goes on and on, it's like ridiculous beat up by hell's angels.

I mean, it's like, it's very funny actually when I hear that, I'm like, this guy's awesome. It was fun. I mean, that's another thing, but very funny actually. Yeah, but I hear that. I'm like, this guy's awesome. It was fun. I mean, that's another thing, but ADHD, like, up for anything. We just, this is kind of high energy, excitability, positive, kind of like part. That's the attentive kind. I'm just speaking for myself, that's more the impulsive.

There's a kind of buoyant, joyous, golden retriever quality to ADHD. That is very, you know, people do like having you at parties. And parties was fun. And parties was how I was regulating back then. So when you're ADHD, you have challenges with the classic executive functions. And that includes putting in place healthy habits that can help you in your life. So my experience of being ADHD largely in my 20s was I had this incredible amount of

energy, incredible amount of interest in lots of things, but I could not focus. I moved cities every two years. I lived all over the world. I moved relationships every six months. I moved homes every three months. I moved jobs every two months. You know, every time I would get bored of one,

I would just jump into a new thing. And that it's the classic kind of hungry ghost thing that Buddhism is trying to address, but it's like on steroids if you're ADHD. So you have this restless sense of dissatisfaction, the sense of energy. You always need to move. You always gotta be switching it up. And you know the moving itself is dysfunctional. And I used to sit down and I'd be stuck in email land for 12 hours straight. I wouldn't breathe. I wouldn't go to the bathroom.

I wouldn't eat. You know, you get hyper focused in. That's another feature. But then you can't pull out. So I have a HVA A just easy. You have trouble with transitions. You have trouble pulling out of one thing and getting into the other thing. So you know you're doing something that's not really serving you.

You can't pull out of it. Then when you finally the day's over, you have all this shame that you didn't get anything done. And there you are. And this is your life. The things you're trying to get done are make money to find a job, being a relationship. In my case, now, it's take care of a family. So you got all these stakes. So that's part of it. And because you're not able to follow through on things, there's just all this shame around, not finishing projects. So I have like five book projects that I've half done so that how do you reign in and regulate? So it's funny because you can get focused, which, hella, I would love that.

But then you get sort of, is it like a vortex? I have a focus. Yeah. So it's every neurodiverse condition has it's kind of like super power liner. And that's part of learning about your situation is figuring what that superpower is. And ADHD has many. One, not everyone has the hyper focus, but that is one of it. When you're really interested in a subject, when you're highly motivated, you can just go forever. And it's amazing.

Like I got the subject that I was interested in was the mind. That's how I stayed with meditation. One of the things I did was I just hyper focused in on meditation itself is the experience of meditation and what, how does the mind work? What could I notice that was happening in real time? That's why I could sit for these super long meditations. So if you're at HD, you can recognize that there is this incredible learning adventure in the mind that you there are absolutely things you can do internally to learn to regulate

your internal state. Not only are there things you can do internally, there's this mystery inside yourself that will continue to unfold and lead you into the most rich juicy mystical goodness. That's true. Have you heard that from other people? Or is that true for you because you have this propensity and interest? Well, it's definitely true for me, but I think it's anyone who commits to learning about themselves and holds the direction. I think it's true for absolutely every one of those people that insights start to emerge. And the nature of an insight is that you feel like you're learning something more fundamental about who you are, how the world works.

And that then creates its own momentum. Well, so you're saying that though, if you have this sort of attentive ADHD that has this hyper focus, you can use it to actually turn that focus inwards and have this journey of self-knowing and self-exploration that can lead to these insights. Like, that's one way to sort of,

you know, that potentially. I was saying that anyone who does that can then go on that journey. For the thing with ADHD is what is the thing that's gonna be really of interest to you? So that is actually one of the ways to work with ADHD is to find the thing that really interests you and to let yourself get into these absorbed states.

However, you have to learn the basis of self-regulation. So the basis of self-regulation is learning how to pull out and come back to the present. So you're not going wholeheartedly into your thing in a way that's creating damage to your body. In terms of the experience, so you have the hyper-focused going in millions of directions like I'm doing right now.

You have high sensitivity. The only thing you're born with is the high sensitivity. Everything else is something that develops through probably developmental. That's some of the thinking around that. So being highly sensitive means that you have very thin boundaries you're easily pulled into different directions by people, by situations.

And that's kind of like, then you take that little tender, vulnerable nervous system and put it into childhood stressors, and then you can develop these chronic problems with attention and regulation. But so the sensitivity is gonna be there your whole life. And the sensitivity means you easily go into emotional overwhelm.

Like, can I ask a question again? So how does that sensitivity show up for you? Like these days, like what are you sensitive to? Oh my God, everything. So do you really pick up on what's going on around for all the time? You're like a vibe magnet. Like a vibe magnet, not just emotional.

So that's what the, that's the nature of the distractibility of ADHD. But the sensitivity is a superpower. I have so much compassion for people because I can see like half a second when someone's having a challenging time. Is that a product of the ADHD itself or that's your wisdom practice?

Like maybe both. Yeah. Maybe just through experience. So it's like you can take your thing that is so challenging and ends up being this incredible gift that you end up being able to bring into the world. And you're sensitized to the entire network of ideas and possible connections.

That makes you such a great meditation teacher. Yeah. I say all the time, I don't think it's any secret. I'm basically teaching the same meditation over and over again. It's a good one, but I love your meditations because they're just so creative. Yeah, I draw on a lot of different things and you can use that again as a superpower. So here's another thing, this is super important as the practice. The act of articulating exactly how you're being challenged in the moment is healing.

It takes you out of that experience of challenge and gives you more perspective. So that is the nature of insight. You suddenly have this, oh my gosh, a ha moment. You come out of the trance that you've been in, this kind of assumption that you've been living in that's filled up all the entire bandwidth of your life. And now you see that you've been doing that. And now, sudden, you have space around it. And now from that place of space, you have more agency around whether or not you want to be in that pattern or out of that pattern.

So this is why mindfulness is, I think, one of the most important practices you can bring to support ADHD. To be able to go, okay, what is actually happening right here? Pause. Come back to your breath. That ability to self-regulate. If you're trying to meditate as an ADHD person, you only need to stay with the breath or only one object that's going to be hard, you can let yourself wander.

You can have a freestyle focus, but then you come back. And then you wander and you come back. A habit you're going to come back to to know how to meditate on the fly. It sounds paradoxical, but to not have to stop what you're doing, to keep doing whatever it is you're doing, but slowly begin to thread in a kind of meditative principleidopreceptible, like the wandring and coming back, or the beta-self-compassion, or something, that's really key, so you're not making like meditation. It has to be this strict thing that's happening over here. Instead, it can be this thing that I'm continually threading in or flowing into my life.

What about for people who are feeling it, they can't sit still, they're hyper-caffeinated, chill, not energy? Move, rolling through. Yeah, I was just going to say walking, or standing're hyper caffeinated to that energy move rolling through. Yeah, I was just gonna say walking or standing meditation. Yeah, so that's another big one. Actually, I would say if you know you have ADHD or you really feel like you're a resident, who is something what I'm saying, any of the energy restlessness start by shaking.

I do this all the time, start by shaking your body, just like a little dance, like shake your arms, shake your fingers, just shake out your whole body. And you could stay doing that, you could move into kind of more fluid movement, you can have a little dance, like shake your arms, shake your fingers, just shake out your whole body. And you could stay doing that. You could move into kind of more fluid movement. You can have a dance party. You can do a more animated yoga series, Tai Chi walking. You can just keep with the movement

or you just shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake and it gives you something to work with. And it feels, it can feel like you're actually, you can feel cathartic like you're letting go of some of that restlessness then you can kind of stop. I have this slow motion dance party where you dance with your own self-consciousness, you dance with your restlessness, like you locate the feelings and then you just start to move with them, like you're having a slow dance with them at the high school program.

When are you going to do that with Dan, please? But you're calling me self-conscious. I just want to see you dance with yourself. you're calling me self-conscious. I just want to see you dance with yourself. Oh, I do it for the meditation. I'm dancing with yourself. Dan, I see you do the self-hugging. When I'm looking at you from behind,

I just see the arms and I'm like, oh, Dan's talking himself. Just so you know he's making this up. I got it. That makes me feel really good. And it's like, Dan's having a slow motion dance party with himself. Let's just say odds are low. Yeah. You'll be doing this slow motion dance party. Let's just say odds are low. Yeah.

You'll be doing this slow motion dance party. Now that we're talking about this, we have no way we're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our...

We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our...

We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... We're not doing this in our... thing I kind of wanted to offer up, which is the perspective piece. I'm 52 years old now at HD, my entire adult life. I've been a practitioner of some kind, most of my adult life. And I've been able to see that for me, it's been a kind of journey with certain perspectives at each part of the journey. So I'll just offer that up. Like at the beginning of the journey is sort of this stage of complete confusion,

where you don't know, you don't even know how you are. You have a certain set of expectations How you're supposed to be norms in the culture and you're like a round peg trying to fit into a square hole You just have all this anxiousness and maybe self-consciousness around not fitting in but you don't know why yet So there's this kind of stage of beginning to get curious about yourself. What's happening? How am I really like what is the nature of my sensitivity? What's the nature of my, you just start to narrow in on who this nervous system is.

And that goes into a stage of really learning, where you're reading books about it, you're talking to people, you're listening to podcasts, you're beginning to develop a sense of who this person is. And usually from there, you can go into a stage of, beginning to find the supports, the structures, the practices that are gonna help you. It may just be the most basic remedial concentration

practice is exactly the medicine. So this is a stage of experimenting, of learning, you're talking to, maybe there's a coach or a therapist, it's talking to a psychiatrist, the medication route is something that needs to happen. And you eventually begin to find a set of supports or structures in your

life. And then you move into a stage where I would call real empowerment, but identified empowerment, where you are owning your neurodiverse condition. You're not trying to mask it. You're talking about openly insofar as it's in a safe space. And then I would just offer as a meditator that for the past 10 years for me, a kind of empowered disidentification that when you watch any neurodiverse condition, when I watch my moment to moment experience of ADHD, the symptoms of the challenges go up and down. And actually, what you start to notice is the one who's looking,

the one who's mindful, doesn't have ADHD. There's no ADHD in there at all. There's nothing in there. There's nothing in there. There's just awareness. And that is the ultimate relief. And my mind and body will always be predisposed to ADHD, but it is not the heart, the core of who I am, and actually the more I only narrowly identify with that, the more I put a limit on myself that I don't need. So there is a kind of spaciousness and fluid, supple, joyful way of being in the world, regardless of what your condition is in the mind and body. So I'm pinging around all four of those stages, so it's not like it's linear, but so that my friends is my opus on ADHD practice. Bravo. I don't want to talk about that anymore.

That was hard for you. I don't know what to relieve. I don't want to talk about that anymore. That was hard for you. It was. Did you notice how it was faster at the beginning, more nervous, and then as I got more out, it's like it was an exorcism. So I'm curious for you to take some of that as my friends and as meditators. What comes up when you hear all that? Any part of it?

I mean, for me, I was so curious about what your experience of it is, and I appreciate you continually pointing to the fact that it's neurodiversity, that there are a lot of diverse experiences of it. And I could relate to so much of it, obviously not to the intensity of yours. I don't have that hyper focus, but especially some of the ways you described what helps with it, that's also what helps me with my particular patterns that aren't ADHD. But it was really cool to hear the universality of just working with a challenging mind, which is pretty much everybody's mind and heart.

But I also realized how little I know about ADHD from different perspectives, because I know it from people in my life who have it. And actually, as you were referencing, I have a few girlfriends who are very late stage diagnoses. And that is helping them understand all these things that they thought were wrong about them all these years.

Exactly. But you think they're character defects. Oh, I mean, they were just so self punishing for so long. Yeah. And it with it, it's like their mind just yeah. When they got this diagnosis to understand so much of their life made sense. Exactly. A diagnosis can all of a sudden connect you to best practices to a whole communities of people talking about, Hey, I have this diagnosis too, this is what I do. This is what helps, this is what doesn't help. And that is the first big game changer for me.

Yeah, I had two responses. One is definitely keyed in on the universality there. One, I mean, many of us will never get diagnoses of ADHD, but we all know what it's like to struggle with our attention or in our executive function, either where we have a lack of attention or a hyper focus. And so there's so many things that you recommended there that will be applicable to those of us who don't have a diagnosis.

The second thing that I particularly keyed in on was when you said, just naming your experience right now can be a relief. I don't have ADHD, but I have panic disorder. And that is what they tell you. You're in a situation where you're like they close the door in an airplane and I realize I can't get off of this thing and I start to freak out. Well, I can just be come aware of the physical sensations of the fear and maybe even put a number on it. Oh, it's an eight right now. Oh, it's a nine. No, now it's a seven. You see that it's moving and you're kind of not so stuck in it when you're moving into the mode of the watcher. So yeah, I think there's a lot of you that you said in there that was applicable

to all of us. Yeah. And actually, that just loose back to that voicemail that started at all where he talked about that his thoughts just being so wild and having a hard time really staying with it. So you don't have to, you don't have to stop the thoughts. You really don't. You just need to get distracted and come back. That it's a process of always coming home. It's not a process of staying home. So, you get distracted and come back, you try, and that's the practice. You try as best as possible, let those thoughts be there. You don't interfere when you keep coming back, and that's the training that everyone's in. And it just, it lets that part of it is not different for an ADHD person.

We're going to talk about that after the break because we're going to do some voicemails from listeners and one of them is about what do you do when you wake up from distraction, which that's an experience we all have. So we're going to dive into that. We're also going to talk about, and this is fitting since this is a party, drugs, we're gonna talk about psychedelics. There's some confusion about whether that's kosher to do a fear to meditation. Is it pork money? But I'm just talking about it then.

That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. Super. That's it. That's it. That's it.

That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. From my youth. No, you're absolutely right. I can hear past the dutchie in the background. All right, great job, Jeff. Thank you for doing that.

Appreciate it. We'll be right back after these quick messages from people who pay our bills. So celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on Page Six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellesai. And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wonder E's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud,

from the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feuds say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans formed the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed

to fight for Brittany. Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. All right, welcome back to Meditation Party with 7-8th Lassie and Jeff Warren, Jeff great job on that last segment. Really appreciate it. This segment, we're toying with the name, What's Your Problem, where we get people to call us and ask us questions.

By the way, if you're listening to this, we'll give you the number for you to call and if you want to call it next time. Here are some questions from folks who pulled the trigger and called us. The first one has to do with substances and drugs. That's from Vanya. Here we go. Hi, meditation party. My name is Vanya and I have a question about substances and drugs.

It seems like everyone does them, whether it be the two casual, nightly glasses of wine or a myriad of psychedelic trips. Everyone from my therapist to my meditation teacher, to my friends, are recommending them for healing. Everyone seems to be on drugs today. The Buddha talks about substances leading to heedlessness, but there's also this feeling in today's culture that psychedelics are needed to get profound healing. Teachers on your show have even encouraged this Dan and even other spiritual people have

spoken to all say that psychedelics are what helped them with major breakthroughs. So is being a sober meditator not enough? Am I simply being aversive and judgmental? Thanks for your time. Seb, you want to pick up on that? I love this question. It's such a good question. Yeah, maybe I'll say a little bit and then we can make it a conversation because I could

go on about this for a long time and there's just so much there because just even that pairing just substances and drugs and so many things are drugs. Caffeine is a drug. There's a great Michael Pollan book. This is your mind on plants. Is that what it's called? Well, he wrote how to change your mind and then he wrote a follow-up book where he came on the show and talked about it. I'll put a link to it in the show notes where he talked about one of them was caffeine. One of them was caffeine that was one of the most fascinating

things I've ever read. Just how powerful a drug that is. And so what we classify as drugs, what we classify as illegal drugs or illicit drugs versus the legal drugs of alcohol and pharmaceuticals that we take and so many people are on antidepressants and anti-anktosiety medication. And so, yes. And so we are a culture,

and I'm talking about modernity, really here, not just American are a culture, and I'm talking about modernity, really here, not just American or Canadian culture, that is on drugs all the time. So what we classify as drugs somehow interfering with our meditation or interfering with our clarity, there are very few people who aren't on any quote-unquote drugs or substances. I find sugar as a drug.

I have a lot of friends in recovery. I don't really drink much anymore, but I'm not in recovery, but I have a lot of friends who are in recovery. And some of them become really intense sugar addicts, recovery spaces are notorious for having the cakes and the coffee and cigarettes. And cigarettes.

And so yeah, we really need to acknowledge the things that affect us, affect our minds, affect our moods that we turn to. And maybe we all need to be in some form of recovery around our addictions, the things that we use to self-medicate and regulate. So, I want to start by saying that before we launch into plant medicines and psychedelics and things that are popping up as therapeutic tools, sometimes used really skillfully

and carefully and sometimes used really just randomly and not so well, you know? One thing I was beautiful point, and also let's just say the obvious, which is there's a racial component to this too, that we, there are some drugs that we've made illegal or decided to enforce the laws on and then other drugs where it was, you know, like we'd looked the other way or we legalized it. So there's a lot of people in prison right now in the States, at least, who got there

by selling drugs that are now legal, just to put that out there. The second thing to say that for me, just off the top of it is that Vanya referenced the Buddha talking about don't use substances that lead to heedlessness, I'm probably mangling the words of the Buddha there, but I think close enough, and I think the key words there,

but you guys please correct me if I'm wrong. I think the key words there are that lead to heedlessness. So I know plenty of meditation teachers will have a drink of wine every once in a while. I don't know that makes them bad Buddhists. And I know plenty of meditation teachers who are deeply on thick I'm sitting with two of them who are deeply into plant medicine. And I mean, I think the key word there is medicine, you know, plant medicine. So I don't think there's some, am I reading of Buddhism and you guys will correct me if, and I'm not even here to say that Buddhism is the be all end all here, but my reading of it is not that you can't take what we might call

drugs. It's like, does it lead to heedlessness? And that can happen with sugar. Well, and there are prohibitions for followers of certain traditions and for monastics. And I don't necessarily agree with them. They're also prohibitions against wearing makeup or jewelry or against dancing or singing or music. So there's that we have to sort of take it with a grain of salt in terms of what we think is right for our lives as moderns in this moment. And who were these prescriptions for and why and which ones are we adopting and are we adopting them because they fit into our puritanical

North American, European, cultural norms, any ways and so we love to flagellate ourselves with that. Well, I just want to go pointedly to Vananny's question, which is, and just say, psychedelics are very fashionable right now, and no, you don't need to do them. They can offer really interesting insights. There's no question. There's a reason that tons of people who are in the meditation now started out in psychedelics. That was definitely a story of one of the stories of the 60s and 70s and does lead to kind of spiritual insights, but different

strokes for different folks. I do know drugs right now, like, are almost none, except for the ones that you're talking about caffeine. I definitely have a beer at the end of the night, which I love. I'm Canadian. That will never stop. But, like, my system is too sensitive to do too much, like, and I probably because I'd over- over indulge what I was younger. I enjoy going to parties and being completely sober for the most part and being able to dance. I love it. There was a time when I really, really loved ceremony.

I loved intentional use of plant medicine. I was the main one that I was doing. I found it was an amazing compliment to my meditation practice. I started to appreciate how I had had no this humility. I have no clue how reality is. Again and again, the multi-dimensional weirdness and richness and these experiences of oneness and connection and the humbling, the way it puts you in your place, really, truly putting you the human in the human's place.

I mean, I've had meditation experiences that were kind of similar, but there was something so dramatic and impactful about the way it happened in some of these plant medicine ceremonies. So, and then from that, these ceremonies are great for kind of initiation experiences. They, I'll show you in a different stage of your life. They help you suddenly see how you've been operating from a ticker perspective in the world

and that you don't need to operate from that perspective anymore. But the person you thought you were is actually changed and there's this opportunity to change and move on and change jobs or whatever. So there's so much benefit, which is to say there is a lot of goodness there. And because it's trendy right now,

everyone's trying to do it. Everyone thinks that they then need to do it for healing and you don't need to do it for healing. And there's lots of problems depending on it. I mean, in these sort of psychedelic spaces, they expect these big healings, these big transformations and it doesn't happen. And then where are they? Or it does happen, but then they have no integration, no ability to stay with the insights afterwards, which is why meditation practice is so supportive. So there's tons of critiques coming out about the psychedelic Renaissance

and a lot of people aren't doing it intelligently at all. So it's a complicated subject. You know. It is complicated, you know, so I don't think we're gonna answer everything here, but there are things we can point to that help us understand that these are tools and there's a reason why it's called medicine

deliberately and that these are indigenous tools Just the same way we point to Buddhism as like this ancient technology or this ancient wisdom system These are ancient ways of knowing how to heal and A lot of these modern spaces are coming out of indigenous traditions. And sometimes that's not acknowledged. That was an interesting thing between Michael Poland's first book and a second book about this, is that he really didn't acknowledge that. And I felt like without blatantly stating it, he had a corrective in his second book, as well as in his Netflix special to really acknowledge where these tools and medicines

and systems and ways of knowing are coming from because those are the experts to really know how to facilitate that and people are learning from that and not that we need to go backwards and only do things at the past, but then how do we integrate that knowing, that knowledge into modern day healing. And there are tons of studies and research and also underground stuff that's happening that's proving that, that a lot of people are finding healing from trauma and healing from patterns and also physical healing from these practices,

from these medicine spaces. And that's really important. And like you're saying, it can be overdone, it can be abused, there can be sort of an addictive quality to the heightened experience, because it is such a powerful experience. Same way people can get addicted to retreats,

just keep going back to retreats and not really attending to their daily life and that integration is really, really important. It could be made also all about you. It could be yet another thing you're doing to work with your stuff. Yes. As opposed to what they're in an indigenous context, it was about connecting to outside of you, the larger world, all the kind of those animate forces surrounding you. And that is very different

than sitting in a room with what you're like Harvard-Tranced psychologists and doing your dose of psilocybin and all about so you could have a particular kind of experience like doing it in a lab, you know, and that can be that can be the doorway into a much more expansive experience. I'm I haven't done any of these things but the not yet dad yet. I am I really am in meditation party. Yeah, meditation party. Part. Freak out. Part. I'm very intrigued by indigenous wisdom. And I'm just curious to like, how do you guys feel about the more modern molecules like LSD or MDMA or ketamine? I love them all. I have had very good times on every one of those molecules.

Daniel, as a matter of fact, I love LSD. Fantastic stuff. I really, I've said this before, but I really feel like I unintentionally healed a lot of trauma as a young person just through mushrooms, LSD, ecstasy at the time who's called and MDMA and I didn't know I was doing that, but I had such mind, soul expanding experiences. I released a lot of emotion and just expressed a lot of grief, but also found joy that I'd never really been able to access

because of all the trauma experience. Totally did that unintentional healing. I was giving myself medicine. I didn't know I was giving myself medicine. It was just a balance that I feel the same way and I feel like I did a disservice in some ways to my nervous system because I so overindulged it. And that actually some of the bipolar stuff that happened later in my life, I think there's a relationship between that and the amount of drug taking I was doing when I was really young. So yeah.

It's a good point because we have to be careful about all this. Yes. I've come around, I mean personally, I have so much shame about the cocaine use I'd an ecstasy use in my 30s after I got home from war zones and then I had a panic attack on the television. So embarrassing, so humiliating. And then I got allergic to alcohol in my late 30s separately. So I was the most straight edge dude in the world for 15, 20 years.

I didn't do any drugs and I didn't drink. And I'd like Jeff, you said earlier, I can stay up late sober and hang out with friends. I love that. But then after I quit being an acrimem and turned 50, I tried MDMA on my 50th birthday and with some friends. And didn't invite us. And didn't invite you.

I had to know the next time. And we're on the beach at a bonfire. And it was amazing. It was totally amazing. And I don't know, the furtiveness of my drug use and my thirties, you go to the bathroom to do cocaine. It's like it's the whole ritual around it is kind of infused with a kind of shame.

And I'm not going to do cocaine again. It's so addictive and I think so dangerous to your heart. But MDMA, you know, that was a beautiful experience being with my friends. And I did it again the next summer and I probably will do it again this summer. And it's not something I wanna get in the habit of doing every weekend,

but there's a lot of power to it. And doing it now as somebody who has a hold of his mental health issues and isn't trying to self-medicate for something that really just doing it now as somebody who has a hold of his mental health issues and isn't trying to self-medicate for something but really just doing it in a kind of, not enough ceremonial way or... Yeah, it's like that. Yeah, I don't know. I see a lot of beauty in it now and maybe people are gonna send me a lot of hate tweets for being irresponsible, but that is the way I feel. It's amazing to me. I've been in a lot of different journey spaces over the past few years. And it's amazing to me who's coming to these. So there is an incredible growth in plant

medicine, in ceremonial use of psychedelics. And I think it's wonderful. There are also a lot of meditation teachers who are talking about it, and there are probably more who are not talking about it, who are participating. So it's there. And some of the spaces I've been in really not kind of my world in a lot of ways. And so I'm having interactions with people who are coming from high places in the corporate world

and in the social world and government and so many aspects of society that it's touching. Just to wrap this up, a lot of promise, a lot of potential here. It's a lot of beauty and peril, too. Some of these psychedelic spaces are unregulated and to most. Yeah, right. So we've, you know, people have gotten into gnarly situations, and so this is exciting and fascinating, but proceed with caution.

Let's do another voicemail, and this is from somebody who is asking about that moment when you wake up from distraction, which, if you're meditating, you understand it, to mentally, because it happens a million times, but this is a really interesting question. We'll talk about it on the other side. Hi, my name is Rachel. I'm calling from Montana.

I just wanted to say I love the podcast, the teacher talks, courses, and the practice has really helped me through some periods of trauma in my life. And I really appreciate the neuroscience and social science-based approach. And so I've been trying to develop more of a habit of meditation, and I haven't had any big of a pissing-heat on the cushion,

but I'm working on that still. And also, when I'm off the cushion trying to remember more frequently, add wake-up, if you will. And sometimes, when that happens, I feel like I'm falling into this mindfulness vortex, and it's really actually kind of scary and overwhelming. And kind of feel like, you know, stop the world I want to get off, sort of rollercoaster. There you go around. And I just wondered, so when you're lost, and you don't really usually realize the

cost and the thoughts and feelings that are happening because you're just lost in it. But when you wake up, is it normal to have such a violent awakening? And does that eventually get easier in kind of past? Well, just one thing to say that, first of all, Rachel's an excellent question. We kind of wish we had you here live so we can interrogate you further. But the one thing I heard in there that I just want to quickly respond to is this idea that you're working on having epiphanies. I would say maybe don't have expectations and goals in that way because it can be a entrance.

If you're pushing too hard in meditation, this is an experience I've had just millions of times bagging my head up against the wall trying to get somewhere, quote unquote, in meditation in that it's just pretty successful recipe for frustration. In terms of waking up from distraction, I am not sure exactly what you're referring to, but I've had the experience of thousands of times of waking up and seeing some sort of insanity or inanity in my own mind and then layering on top of it, a bunch of self-legulation about how I keep getting lost all the time. or inanity in my own mind and then layering on top of it, a bunch of self-legulation about

how I keep getting lost all the time. Even though my whole job is to tell people on this podcast and live audiences everywhere that it's okay to get lost in meditation, that thinking is not stoppable and that the whole point is just to have a different relationship to the thoughts. And yet, when I wake up from distraction in meditation, it's not uncommon for me to be resistant to the content of what I've just seen and to the fact that I'm getting, quote unquote, lost at all. So, making any sense when I'm saying? Yeah, totally. And I agree. It's hard to know exactly what's happening. I wish we could

ask questions because I identify with what's said, but I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly. And my experience is, oh, sometimes I can feel like I need to follow everything that's happening. So I can get overwhelmed by it. Like, I need to know it or have some sort of tracking going on. But I can also just be overwhelmed because what, the the word violent really spoke to me or hit me. Like that idea that whatever I see or become aware of is just a lot of loaded content, like a lot of emotion, maybe a lot of old stories or grief or anger or fear, like it could be really charged what's coming up. So there's any number of things that could be happening here.

All of them are very identifiable to me, like I identify with them and they seem perfectly normal as part of practice. And for me coming back to my felt sense experience, like I identify with them and they seem perfectly normal as part of practice. And for me, coming back to my felt sense experience, like feeling my body, remembering I'm here, not needing to feel like I need to track that or... I've never heard you talk about being in the body before. I mean, it's the key people, but really mindfulness is a misnomer thinking that we always have to pay attention to the mind, but we're a whole human being and sometimes sort of having that wider perspective that Jeff was talking about earlier and leaning back and just feeling what's happening in the moment can make that a less violent, let's say, experience.

You've criticized yourself for all of your meditations are the same thing. Just get out of your head and into your body, but it's a massive public service. We need to be reminded of this a million times. We as me. Yes, yes, right. Of course.

And sometimes being in your body isn't a safe place to be. Yes. Because I hear, well, I hear that question is someone who's working with trauma and they're getting flooded, they're coming back and they're seeing, they're flooded with intense emotions and emotional overwhelm and the thoughts. And I have been to that place a lot. And there are things I do in the moment around that. Like I, if I'm And just to what we're talking about, if I'm able to stay, if I'm able to track the experiences in my body and in my mind,

if I can stay tracking them, then I won't tip over into that overwhelm place. Yeah, and even in the moment, if that moment of just feeling that violent awakening or that overwhelm, you can open your eyes if they were closed, you can put your hand on your body, you can take a deep inhale and exhale, never underestimate the power of that. You know, you can lie down, touch the ground. There are any number of things that you can do that are still

part of your mindfulness practice. Absolutely. This is great. We don't know her exact issues, but you both just threw out so many great resources. So I appreciate that before the break here. Thank you to the listeners who called in with the questions. I want to encourage you to do more of that because we're going to do more meditation parties. And so the number is 15086565040 or you can send us a voice memo to podcast at 10% .com. The number and email address are in the show notes.

Coming up, we're going to talk about the stuff that we're freaking out about, like that we're super excited about, sort of a recommendation segment. We called it last time cool aid. Some people didn't like that. What about Spark's Joy? Hard pass. Hello. It just fell down my closet. It just fells my heart. Yeah, it fells my heart. That's right on the floor. Dan, it fells my heart. It fells my heart.

We'll be right back. We'll be right back. It fells my heart. All right, final segment of Meditation Party. We're going to talk about stuff that is filling our hearts. I'm going to go to the bathroom in Vomit and said, once you start. So there's a few things I'm really into right now. I've talked about dancing before on this podcast and with both of you.

And I've just really been going for it. I go stone cult sober to these dance parties. Probably because the DJs that I'm into are my age or older. They're like, we're not staying out until 4 a.m. anymore. So there are these dance parties from like seven to 12. They're ecstatic dance and five rhythms. If you're interested in exploring dance, you can look those things up.

But these are real dance parties in spaces that have bars. And it's just so fun. It's so fun to really love expressing through the body in a way that I've always enjoyed dancing, but there's something about being an old black lady that like I just don't care anymore. Like I will just dance and I'll dance with people and I'll dance the way that I want to

and I'll do crazy moves and just have a really good time, you know, and not worry about how I look. I'm not trying to pick anybody up crazy moves and just have a really good time, you know, and not worry about how I look. I'm not trying to pick anybody up. I mean, if there's somebody cute, I'm not saying that. But I just, it's just fun. And I also do it in my living room and I also do it waiting on the subway platform. And I just do an a little two-step, a good Lizzo song comes on in my headphones.

And it's just, I denied myself that for a long time and there are kind of many reasons I could explore why that I'm not going to now, but it feels really good to be beyond that and enjoying it. And kind of connected to that, I've really gotten into singing again. So I sang a lot as kind of like a kid. I mean, we all sing as kids, but middle school, high school, I was in some singing groups,

a magical group, if you can imagine that. And I joined a choir in the fall that is started by a amazing black choral director named Troy Anthony. He uses gospel music and all of these amazing arrangements. He's a genius. So I've been, every rehearsal starts with a warm-up that is a chant that was written, he told me, by his friend, Tony George. And the words are, I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember who I am. And I've been using it as my morning meditation.

And so I sing this to myself in the morning, and I really just allow it to kind of wash over me as a contemplation. And I'm really remembering my Buddha nature, my true nature, my divine self, my purpose here, my community, and it's like, it's the best. So I'm just saying it for you guys. I remember, I remember who I am. And it's amazing to do that with a group of people who are going into harmony. It's just, it's the best.

Takes a lot of guts to sing like in a room full of other people who aren't singing. I love it so much. It's like, it's the guts that it takes to dance in a room of people who aren't comfortable dancing. Yes. And it's really my practice right now. You're such a delightful human being and definitely feeling that as you're talking, but I also feel like envy.

You know, like I've never been able to unlock myself to dance or sing or anything. Well, I did when I was a kid, but then I ran into the buzz soft junior high school masculinity and all of that just went away. And I used to perform musicals and all that stuff, yeah. Really? And then I... You used to be a musician too. Yes, well, I do still, I did play the drums all through.

I still play the drums, but when I go to weddings or dance parties, I so want to be out there, but have never really managed to get over myself. And that's like on my list of things that I really do want to tackle in the second half of my life. But you and I have been talking about going to Zumba for years. And we had a pandemic and we should still do that. We should, I think we should go to something at ecstatic dance. That could be a space. I mean, it would freak you out somewhat. I think we should go to something at ecstatic dance. That could be a space. I mean, it would freak you out somewhat.

Extatic dance. Yeah, but it's also a really, like really contemplative space for exploring dance. If I get enough kombucha in me, I feel so. Yeah. I feel a session coming on for meditation party in October. Yeah. Well, it's just gonna say so we in October,

we have an in-person retreat we're doing at Omega, which isn't Ryan Beck, New York. I think there are still a few slots open. Are we going to dance at this thing? Apparently. Yeah, we'll give people the option to move.

We can do movement. We can do movement. We're definitely going to do movement. If I'm guiding stuff, I'm going to have options for movement in there. So there will be, and we can make it so can make it so it's not like, it's not going to be terrifying. But I think playing with that part, there's so much value in working with your self-consciousness.

Because forget about dance, everything in life, so much of what we feel like we can and can't do in life has to do with how we imagine the kind of person we imagine we need to be inside, has to do with self-consciousness. And can I say if I go back to Heart-backed to Indigenous medicine, there is not a Indigenous tradition that doesn't include some form of movement and singing as part of the medicine, as part of meditation, as part of waking up. There's some things you just can't do internally, it has to be expressed. That's the that's the medicine of singing and dancing and

you know I used to go when I would go clubbing I would I've had some of the deepest meditation smears I've ever had dancing. I would get into the zone with the music or whatever not coordinated and this is not a pretty picture but for me it felt wonderful and then I would start having insights about my body world the kind of same ones I would have on the cushion just from moving to music. So there's a lot of parallels there. And it's more fun. And that Jason's fun too. Anything else you want to say about that? I'll say the other thing that I'm really excited about right now that's in process is that I'm getting licensed as a New York state hiking guide, because I love my favorite thing

is to lead meditations in nature. And I realized that I wanted to do that here and I thought I was just gonna lead people out and someone told me that's illegal. Like you actually need a license in New York state to lead people on hikes, even if they're mindful hikes. And so I'm going through the process now.

That's amazing. We're doing so many good things. I know you've got a lot going on. Yeah, it's fun. Being single suits you. Jeff, what you got? I would just say in terms of like nerd stuff. I mean, I don't have the bandwidth as much

because of the parenting, but on the way to and from my co- king space, I've been listening. John Verveik, he's the meaning crisis. I've been encouraging Dan to get John on his show. He's a University of Toronto cognitive scientist who really smart guy. A long-term meditator interested in mindfulness, but with a really strong, very strong rigorous cognitive science background. And he's trying to figure out what is the science of wisdom. There's a lot of other people in this space right now. But he really ties a lot of things together like where we are in this cultural moment,

the kind of larger sense of malaise, the mental health crisis. And it's all about how we make meaning, what meaning is. And I find it wonderful. And in particular, is this idea of fittedness that a lot of our sense of meaning, it's not something we make in particular, is this idea of fittedness, that a lot of our sense of meaning, it's not something we make in ourselves, nor is it something we have to try to find in the outside world.

It has to do with our relationship between ourselves and the world, and the degree to which we feel fitted to our life, to our relationship, to our work, that meaning emerges spontaneously from that. And so it's got me thinking a lot about, where do I feel that and where do I not feel that? And in his view, you need to sort of ecology of practice because it's an ecology of practices to support that.

So I highly recommend that. And it's available on YouTube. He's got him on YouTube, the Ronald Podcast series, they're really smart. I mean, they're like 50,000 episodes long. It's very long-winded, but it's full of goodness. We'll put a link in the show now. Yeah.

My enthusiasm or whatever, what's... Filling your heart. Yeah, right now is, it's actually pretty similar to what you guys were talking about. I just spent the past week at the TED conference. I gave a TED talk last year, and then, I was really surprised. I just loved being there.

I've always hated conferences, because I don't really like networking. So when they asked me to give a talk, I thought I would fly in and then fly out. They really strongly encouraged me to come and stay for the whole thing. So I did and I loved it. And it wasn't really giving the talk.

Actually, that was probably the low point in that. I was just very nervous about that. And so it wasn't a source of, I enjoyed the actual doing of it, but the days leading up to it, I was just very nervous about that. And so it wasn't a source of, I enjoyed the actual doing of it, but the days leading up to it I was really nervous. What I really loved was being in this environment with it, so many fascinating people. And Ted, it's not accessible to everybody. And so I recommendation is not go to Ted. It's, put yourself in a situation where you can be around invigorating human beings.

And for me, being in this little five-day adult summer camp with a lot of very interesting people, it's like I was not sleeping. I was staying up until 2, 3 in the morning, as Seb said earlier, Stone Cold sober, just having amazing conversations with amazing intelligence, brave people who are doing lots of things all over the world. And it's just a reminder, like I get the same energy being here with you guys. I don't have to go to the TED conference. And again, I can't emphasize strongly enough that my recommendation here isn't try to

get into this elite conference. My recommendation is to find people you like hanging out with and do it on the regular. And that is of course, consonant with what's seven, Jeff we're talking about with singing and dancing. It's also consonant with what Jeff was talking about via John Verveki about fittedness or belonging. All of that is of a piece. And I just feel like systematizing that, getting better at really making sure I've got social contact on the regular has been a massive boost to my own mental health.

Anyway, does that land? What I'm saying? And I would say because a lot of my dancing has been solo and especially after the break up, immediate left of the break up, I challenge myself to go to places by myself. And so that belonging and fit inness started with me, it was really kind of delightful that every time I went somewhere, I would run into someone I knew from some part of my life. And that was really special. But also feeling that sense of belonging with all these strangers and in the music and

in that practice of just kind of being in the world, which you're describing, that I spend a lot of my life looking for that external validation and that sense of belonging outside of myself. And so it's an inside out job now. talking about you guys feeling a little inhibited last time because you were a little bit about what is this audience going to think of you? What am I going to think of you? How is it feeling now? I feel awesome. Yeah, I feel really relaxed. I'm psyched for our conversations that really go to all the places that are possible and today felt great. Meaning you want us to get weirder. Yes. Me too. Me too. All right, cosine will do that.

That's a promise to the listeners. We're going to get weirder. And again, you come join us in person and we'll get super weird. That's come up in October. Great job, guys. Any closing thoughts? Happy to be doing this with both of you. Yeah, me too.

You fill my heart. I don't know. I don't know if I should get all the listeners who've stayed this long. Indeed. Yeah, thanks, guys. Thank you. Thanks again to Seb and Jeff. If you want to be part of the show, call in with a question or a comment. The number is 508656-0540 or you can email us with a voice memo at podcastat10persent.com and we will put all that information in the show notes if you didn't get it. or you can email us with a voice memo at podcastat10%.com. And we will put all that information in the show notes if you didn't get it.

Also, don't forget the meditation party retreat is coming up in October. There are still a few spots left. You can either come in person or attend virtually. Again, the link is in the show notes. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davy, Lauren Smith, and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer,

Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor, shout out to Marissa, who's been the linchpin of this whole meditation party experiment. And Kimmy Regler is our executive producer. We get our scoring and mixing from Peter Bonaventure over at Ultraviolet Audio and Nick Thorburn of one of my favorite bands, Islands, and delivered our theme. We'll see you all on Friday for a special episode with Gina Rosero,

his incredible story about living with a huge secret. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.