Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 602: The Cost of Living With a Secret | Geena Rocero

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

We’re going to start experimenting with these Friday episodes. Historically on Fridays, we’ve dropped guided meditations – and we will still do that – but we’re also going to try some different formats, including some shorter episodes with guests that might not be a fit for our traditional Monday and Wednesday shows.Today we’ve got Dan’s new friend Geena Rocero. She has an incredible story about what it’s like to live with an all-encompassing secret.Geena was born and raised in the Philippines. There, she became a star on that country’s thriving transgender beauty pageant scene. Then she moved to America to launch her modeling career. But here, in this new country, she was justifiably very worried about letting anybody in the fashion world know that she was transgender. So for many many years, she lived with a secret -- one that could destroy her livelihood at any moment. In 2014, she decided to come out publicly in a TED Talk that now has more than 4 million views. She’s now a public speaker, trans rights advocate and an award-winning producer/writer/director.She is also an author, just out with a new memoir, called Horse Barbie. You’ll hear her explain what that title means. We also talk about the cost of living with a secret, why she decided to come out, and the overlap between gender and spirituality.Where to find Geena Rocero online: Twitter: twitter.com/geenaroceroInstagram: instagram.com/geenarocero Book Mentioned:Horse Barbie: A MemoirOther Resources Mentioned:Geena’s TED talk: Why I Must Come OutDownload the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/installSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, we're going to start experimenting with these Friday episodes from here on. And historically, as you may know, on Fridays, we've dropped guided meditations. And we're going to still do that. But we're also going to try some different formats, including some shorter episodes with guests who might not be a fit for our traditional Monday and Wednesday shows. Today, we've got my new friend, Gina Rosero. She has an incredible story about what it's like to live with an

all-encompassing secret. Gina was born and raised in the Philippines. There she became a star on that country's thriving transgender beauty pageant scene. After that she moved to America to launch her modeling career. However, here in this new and strange country, she was justifiably very worried about letting anybody in the fashion world know that she was transgender. So for many, many years, she lived with this secret, one that could have destroyed her livelihood at any moment. In 2014, she decided to come out publicly in a TED talk that now has more than 4 million views. Today, she's a public speaker, trans rights activist, and award-winning producer writer

director. She's also an author. She's just out with a new memoir called Horse Barbie. You'll hear her explain what exactly that means. We'll also talk about the cost of living with such a huge secret, why she decided to come out, and we talk about the overlap between gender and spirituality. I first met Gina at the Ted Conference in Vancouver a few weeks ago, shortly thereafter.

I ran into her in LA at another conference, and that is where we recorded this interview in person. What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth? What really matters in the pursuit of a life well lived? These are the questions award-winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields, asks his guests on the Top Ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week Jonathan sits down with world renowned thinkers and doers, people like Glenn and

Doyle, Adam Grant, Young Pueblo, Jonathan Height, and hundreds more. Start listening right now. Look for the Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head.

Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. having me. It's so nice to actually do this in person because I'm so I'm most of our interview's are zoom so it's like it's great to actually sit in a room with you. I feel so special now. How's that? No, it's it's um we were at a conference together you know we did same group of people and then here we are in a different city doing this so this is this is amazing. Tell me about the title of the book Horse Barbie. What does that mean? The way I'd say Horse Barbie is a spirit. I's a spirit that, let me back up here,

in the Philippines, when they started joining Transpagins at 15 years old, I became so popular and so big and reached the top of the pageant culture on top of my game at 15. On my third pageant, I won the biggest title and I stayed there, right? So obviously you're in this very competitive stage. My competitors, you know, called me horse, I look like a horse because of my long neck, my protruding profile, and my dark skin. So they started calling me horse as a taunt, it's a tease, obviously it's hurt to be called that. And then one day, my pageant manager,

her name is Tiger Lily, she saw me on stage, and she saw the way I projected myself, the way I posed, the way I carried myself, it's so regal, right? She said, she saw me on stage and she said, you know, you look like a horse Barbie. And since then, that sort of mythical energy, passion and magic almost is something I carried with me.

You know, like the whole evolution when I started joining pageants in the Philippines to moving to New York City, it's a thing that's always with me. How would you sum up that spirit for people who might want to channel it for themselves? At least what I would remember when I moved to New York City in 2005, that when I needed it the most,

because when I moved to New York in 2005 as a fashion model, I had to go stealth, meaning at the time in 2005, you cannot be an alien proud transgender fashion model. My model agent did not know I was trans. The fashion industry did not know I was trans. So I was living in this difficulty, you know, having two realities at the same time, the paranoia and all that. So horse barbie, I remember feeling like that spirit is right here next to my shoulder,

that I could talk to that spirit of horse barbie in that essence of what they did in the Philippines. And in some way, I needed to have that survive, you know, because it was difficult. I mean, there are so many stories of trans women that came before me, the fashion models that came before me, like the moment they got outed through a whisper that their trans, their careers disappeared. So Horus Barbie is something in spite of like that difficulty of going through it and pursuing my dream. I needed to have that to remind myself of who I truly am because in many ways, I launched myself. And there's always, as a fashion model at the time in 2005, I just remembered, again,

I recognized a degree of privilege to be able to pass, to be seen as this model. But I was also in this industry that is all about the power of imagery, right? In fashion, advertising, media. I was so visible, covers with magazines, all that Times Square billboard, but I was also consciously invisible at the same time. So Horace Barbies, the one thing that could visualize as a reminder of who

I truly am. At this time when you were gaining and losing an identity simultaneously, this spirit, as you called it, was what kept you grounded. It was the life preserver and a raging ocean. It sounds to me. Perfectly put. It's an ember that had to kept alive in this, you know, any moment of being found out. I want to talk a little bit more about you use the word paranoia and living with this fear of being found out. But let me just stick with Horse Barbie for a second because I feel like there's something kind of universal there that many of us may not actually do this, but we probably should is to even back it up even further,

there's a kind of therapy called internal family systems where you name all the different parts of yourself. You know, a lot of us have parts of ourselves that we are ashamed of or that we hate and that we cannot make peace with. And so we compartmentalize or we pretend it's not there. And then of course, everyone's in a while, that part of our personality gets hold of the steering wheel and we do a bunch of shit

that we later regret. And so it's important to, according to this IFS theory, Dalai, have a decent relationship with these various parts of yourself. Some parts of ourselves though are incredibly awesome and empowering and are like our own little version of the Buddhist and Hindu deities of compassion that we hear about. And so horse barbie sounds to me like your inner dignity, strength, certainty in your own goodness. And I think all of us could benefit from naming

that part of ourselves, seeing it clearly and relying on it during difficult times. Does that make sense? I connect to everything that you of ourselves, seeing it clearly and relying on it during difficult times. Does that make sense? I connect to everything that you said there, because I think as I wrote this book, it certainly, I remember Horse Barbie is that spirit for me, and I could talk to Horse Barbie next to my shoulder. And even the whole book, it's written, each chapter title is almost like its own identity that it carried with me.

And sometimes I felt like on each chapter that I've gone through, I had to inhabit those identity and new names because I came from very, very different culture, growing up born and raised in the Philippines. So to adjust, to evolve, to survive, well, at the same time, you know, that North Star of Horse Barbie, I needed to have all those. Just to say, I'm about to say some things that are not really directed at you, but directed more at the audience.

If people are listening to this and they're skeptical, I just want to say a couple things. One is, there's a lot of research in particular. We had a guest on the show a couple years ago, named Ethan Cross, who had a big impact on me. He's a psychological researcher at the University of Michigan, and he wrote a book called Chatter, and he talked all about how we generally talk to ourselves in extremely unkind ways. If I said to other people, the type of shit I said to myself, I would get punched in the face on the regular. And science demonstrates that we can rewire the way we talk to ourselves

by channeling our internal horse barbie or whatever you want to call it for yourself. So that's just one thing to say. And the second thing to say is that for me, meditation, specifically loving kindness meditation, which as a skeptic I was initially not that big of fan of, but it enhanced my capacity to see my own horse Barbie, my own, uh, uh, you're Dan Harris and horse Barbie.

I like, you know, it kind of rhymes. You know, whatever, however you want to say that, but Dan Harris horse barb, but, well, sounds good to me. But you know what I'm saying, like, we all have that. There's, by the way, you were just blushing. You are. Then I was, or as far be here you go. I blushed last night.

My wife said last night, I blushed. We met somebody. I don't want to name drop. We met somebody famous who I was not expecting to meet. Okay. And there are very few famous people that would freak me out and this person did and Bianca said it said Hollywood Person, I usually don't get blushed by Hollywood people. Okay, but yeah, so you and I are in LA right now

We were just having dinner last night with friends. We're not famous. Yeah, and a famous person came into the house Yeah, and I Blushed and so and she said I haven't seen you blush and you know 15 years and now I'm blushing again All right, for Barbe, congratulations to you. I love it. I think you're just pointing to something. I do want to dive more deeply into your specific story because it's so incredibly compelling. But here we are at the beginning of this conversation.

I think talking about something that is really universal and I want to be aware that some people listening might be like, oh, well, I'm not going to like talk to my own inner horse barbie. Get over yourself because there's a lot of science that shows that doing this thing, which you by the way, and this is incredibly impressive, you came to this on your own. I'm like me who like I actually read a lot of people and saw the science and was able to learn how to channel my own best version of myself.

You in desperation came to this incredible realization, which I think is all the more impressive. If there isn't easier way, I'm sure I would have taken that, but like I had no choice. I think when you're in that edge, you really can't see what's next and how I could continue. I was reminded of that. You know, I needed to really unpack all the journeys I've gone through and this particularly happened when I turned 30 years old. That's when I decided, you know, after modeling for eight years and having to carry this secret and having that burden of having to always self-edit everything that I say, everything from your disperson I'm talking to, where do you fit?

Are you in my inner circle? Are you in my outside B circle, C circle? Oh, what do they tell you about my life story? Oh, all of that. This horse Barbie, I was next to my shoulder all the time. Have to be my guiding spirit from here on, you know, because it was It was a lot of suffering and And actually, you mentioned a meditation. Do you do yoga? You know, not yet. My parents weren't at these and made me do yoga

when I was a little, and as a result, I've always had a bit of a problem with it. Okay, all right. No, no, it's your interviewing me. I'm pro yoga, generally. No, I, but not for me. I have tried meditation. I have tried that sitting down,

I get it, I feel it. The closest I could just imagine that feeling of being on the zone, the quietness, the breast single in and out is through yoga. I remember when I was about to turn 30 years old and I knew as I'm entering this new decade in my life, questioning, okay, what has happened? The one single thing I could think of was,

I can't continue keeping this and having this suffering in my life, how do I move forward? And it did suffer. I had a medical condition and my dermatologist was like, gave me all the medications, nothing was working. And the moment I decided to tap into that breath work, I started doing intense yoga, hot vinyasa, sometimes twice a day, every day.

After months and months of taking medications, like all this stared medication that you could think of, doing yoga in like two weeks, the condition I was having disappeared, you know, I detailed in the book what had happened there, but certainly yoga and meditation. And I remember one day I was doing really hot intense yoga, like difficult position. And it's hot, it's smells, you know, it's difficult position. I remember the moment of it's difficult position. I remember the moment of a difficult position that I was doing, I all I could remember is that intimate in and out of my breath,

and I think it's the most peaceful thing that I could remember that I found in the most circumstance that you shouldn't be feeling like peaceful, right? It's hot and difficult. I remember coming home and just completely let it go. That sense of peace that I found in that moment and in that space was, I could picture it right now, you know, how that felt. And it's something I care with me. And yoga and

so many obviously yoga and meditation connected in all of its essence, something that I care with me. And in many, many ways, after that, while they're also family members or friends that are going through something difficult, I share that experience. And because I know how much it helped me. I believe that. And I know you're not saying this.

I'm not against modern medicine. I don't think either of us is, but modern medicine has been good to me. So in many ways, so nice to say that. So yeah, I'm happy, nothing against. I think we're on the same team there. And some of our conditions are based in psychological trauma and tumult and sometimes to get to the root of that,

you need something that might not be traditional modern medicine. So I think I could absolutely see how yoga might get under the hood in a deep deep way and and bring a lot of health benefits. I saw truth there, you know, in whatever way one defines that for for me in that moment in my life That's simple in and out of that breath work. Ooh, giving me a good start. I'm still thinking about it. It really propelled me to like that next thing. And it's still something I wanna keep going back to.

Speaking of going back, I do wanna go back to this period of time where you were living with this paranoia that you've referenced a couple of times here, but I wanna, if it's okay, really go there for a second. You open the book by telling a story of a John Legend music video, which was really sort of the, it seems like the peak moment of you feeling split into two parts and really living with a lot of fear. Would you mind telling that story and why that moment really kind of summed up your predicament?

Sure. I just moved to New York City and my agency told me like I'm been hired to, you know, star in John Legend's music video. He was an up and coming at the time. It's the song called number one. And every supermodel that have been in music videos like Naomi Campbell and Evangelista, they've all started big music videos. That's what I thought I was doing. I'm gonna be in music video, I'm gonna reach the stars. This is my ticket to start them in fame. When I got on the set, the director told me to post a certain way and there's a choreography and all that. They positioned me at the back, which is like I'm just sort of like behind this curtain,

a reflection in the way I move, but because the way it was shot, they were doing close-ups. So I remember seeing that and thought that they might see something, whether it's my angle or the way I move that kind of paranoia, it reached that moment of what did I get myself into, you know. It was a lot of fear. And this is a scene where I was in lingerie. I was in luxurious lingerie, feeling sexy supposedly, but in my head, any moment here, somebody could say something, the sliless, you know, asked me to come with her. And then I thought like, okay, just a sit, you know, and obviously I continued working. And that was the beginning of that being visible, but also consciously being invisible at the same time. And that was the most

intense, you know, as was to be welcomed in that expectation of this is going to be my dream, my ticket to fame, and then realize, oh, this is what I have to do it all the time, every day. And you know, sometimes I look back, I think this is why I love spy genres. As I was writing this book, I realized I think why it's because I felt like I was a spy in a clandestine operation all the time for eight years because I cannot let go of my cover. I have to play that role whenever I'm called to for eight years. I was a spy being a trans, stealth, fashion model. Many of us live with secrets. What are the costs to living with a secret for that one? I lost that sense of self.

I was this very vibrant, young, trans-patchin' queen in the Philippines, flamboyants, being on stage, the feeling of like I have that power. For me personally, when I had to be stealth as a fashion model, all those things, I have to temper all of that, right? And then the other side of that is that emotional turmoil of editing, of not having relationship. I cannot have any relationship.

I'm 21 years old in New York City. Young model. Yes, you know, I played around, you know, I, you know, did my thing, but I couldn't have deep relationship because trans-woman's models that came before me. It's literally with stories of, you know, because you're with someone and that person whispered to someone that their trans all they took was just at one whisper and then I'm done. That's how much at stake that I had to live with and to have that all the time every day of your life couldn't let go.

You know, when I was 30 years old, I couldn't continue living that life anymore. Something has to give. I had one very close friend, another transphilippina, that truly understand what I was going through. So it's good that I have that. I have a couple of like really, even like the non-trans girlfriends that I had

for so long, they also didn't know. Even those relationship, yes, it is a friendship, but there's just that aspect of who I am that I couldn't fully let go. Why do you think they know who I am? So when I shared with them about who I am, excepted me because they never saw me as any other way. But other than that, I couldn't maintain a relationship. I know Cion was farting and having fun, but certainly alcohol and all of that stuff was a big way to temper all of that truth that I have to put it aside.

That was self-medicating, basically, with alcohol. I mean, I look back now certainly, I was young when you were an insult, but I was definitely partying too. And I think a lot of that is to forget about like this thing that I have to do. This thing that I have to deal with, this truth that I have to keep a secret.

So you finally, as you said, something had to give, something had to break, and that came in a very public way on the stage at TED in 2014, and we'll post a link to your TED talk in the show notes so people can go watch it for themselves. But you get up in extremely public forum and come out. I just watched the talk, and I was wondering to myself, like, how terrified were you to come tell your story in this way? It was terrifying, but I think let me also say that when I made that decision, okay, I'm going to do this, I'm finally ready to tell my story.

And many things had happened that led to that, detailed in the book, there's so many scenes, this set sense of ownership that I felt is almost like this sense of purpose, but so much bigger than my fear. You know, and nobody could stop me and that there was a switch in that mindset. And once I made the decision,

I reached out to a couple of friends and said, I'm ready to tell my story. I wanna do it in the biggest way possible. I said, if I'm going to a couple of friends and said, I'm ready to tell my story. I wanna do it in the biggest way possible. I said, if I'm going to risk this, because this was 2013 when I made that decision. It's still a risk, and a friend who had spoken a tad said, I told Ted that you have this story,

and next thing on your, I was in conversation with them. And they were like, this is your first time saying this in public, yes, and they were like, okay, we've time saying this in public, yes. And they were like, okay, we've never had this conversation before. Nobody has presented these stories by someone, a trans person. So let's do it. Yes, it was nerve-wracking. Ted also gave me a wonderful speech coach named Gina Barnett, who also named Gina. It's also not my Jewish mother. Also really dear dear friend. And more than just a speech coach, she was my

anchor in that moment. And all the things that you taught me about storytelling, I still carry with me. And in that moment, she was just like, once you open this box, you cannot seal that again. But once you've shared this truth, you've done your part, whatever happens happens, but the truth and the beauty of this experience, the spirit that you're about to give to people in that moment, there's enough, you know, you've done that, and there's a gift to the world. So that kind of calmed me down.

But I remember the very first time I rehearsed on that TED stage, you know, that stage. It's big. It's intimidating. It's a lot of people, all the powerful people in the world, but like just being on that big, big stage. But I remember doing that rehearsal and just horse Barbie was back, you know, that whole being on stage, the muscle memory was back. And I felt, Tiger Lily was there next to me again, you know, that whole being on stage, the muscle memory was back. And I felt Tiger Lily was there next to me again, you know, telling me I could do it. And I would always remember her advice when I was doing pageants in the Philippines. She'd always tell me like, whether you're competing in front of 20,000 coliseum in the Philippines or 500 people in front of your own national television, when you're speaking, and question the answer

or when you're in stage, how do you create intimacy? How do you harness that? You know, so I remember that, and then in the combination of what Gina Bernette told me, is like, listen to your breath, really take your time, and I do remember when I was giving that speech, I could hear my breath and that calmed me down and I created an intimacy. That's all I could remember. I know I said, obviously, I did the talk, but those who, whether it's the horse barbeque spirit next to me or the

breath that Gina Bernette told me, it was all those. So yeah, I did that. You can really tell when you're watching the speech that you are taking your time and any terror I was projecting on to you because you seem Very confident in the moment, but I was just thinking well I was in her position. I would be terrified and it's great to hear it from the inside from you One other thing I wanted to talk about when you and I were talking about this before we started the interview and It's a theme in your talk and it's also a theme in the book, is the overlap between gender and spirituality.

Can you educate me a little bit about that? I'm born and raised in the Philippines. This is a country and culture to have a long history of gender fluidity. In pre-colonial times in the Philippines, Philippines is an archipelago with 7,000 islands with many different dialects, but certainly before we were colonized by Spain, transgender people, let's just use that term for now, gender fluid people, they were actually called at the time Babaylan, we have a mythical goddess named Lakhapati, who's like a gender-fluid goddess of golden rice, harvest, and fertility.

It's so embedded in our culture, understanding that gender is fluid. I believe trans people, gender non-conforming people, are the most spiritual human beings in the world. Certainly, I see that now, because we're also speaking about American Western context here that we live in society that we're brought up in this very rigid binary of rigid male, rigid female and all the rigidity that comes with that.

Trans and gender nonconforming people, we see through that, you know, we know the limits of that. And I like to believe that we offer that answer to freedom to people that would our lived experience despite how much attacks or shame society would give us, despite all the problems it attacks on our lives wanting to be erased. We still choose to be who we are. There's no promise that it's going to be okay, it's going to be good, but it's this really powerful truth. And it would challenge that at the same time gives freedom to everybody to pursue to your truth in whatever definition that is, whether it's to pursue to freedom to your

religion, to how you were taught, class-based, all of that, pursue that, and we did that. And that's through gender, through that spirituality that propels us to move forward. So I hear two gifts there to the rest of the species from the transgender and gender non-conforming community. One would be just this sheer courage it takes to be yourself in a culture that doesn't accept you

and how that can be a beacon for all of us whether we are conforming or not. And the second is that you help us think outside of the box out of the binary and see that within all of us, I can inhabit stereotypically or traditionally feminine aspects of a human that I might not have seen the potential for. Horace Barbiedon Harris. Exactly.

Exactly. And a blessing. First of all, it's also just, I mean, the fun aspect of that is to laugh in this. I mean, I hope one way or many way, I like to think there's many ways that trans people could show the world and everybody is that go through it and figure out what is that truth for you. In the fun way, in the spiritual way, because it's that rigid understanding of gender only leads to suffering. Not just for us, but for straight cisgender everybody that still

believe that. And then the other side that that is that transgender nonconforming people offers to free them to explore the spectrum. Yeah, just for my own lived experience, I know intimately what it's like to be cisgender straight male, and we are socialized not to access aspects of our personality including sensitivity just to name one and that hurts us. You know, it doesn't just mean that we are creating harm in the world for other people. We're limiting our own capacity for happiness. If we can't access compassion, if we can't access kindness sensitivity, if all of that is tamped down by a culture that pushes us in the direction of aggression and sex only, then we too are victimized.

Yeah. As we victimize others. We have this belief ethos in the Philippines, in Philippine culture called Kapwa, this word called Kapwa. What it is is basically, it's this embedded communal aspect in our lives. Kapwa basically means in herself, shared with others. Growing up in the Philippines, I didn't exist as a single person. I'm always a reflection of the intercommunity dynamic. On a move to America, the whole individualist aspect of things was like so weird to me. You mean you do this by yourself?

You are only single that as this one person and you try to pretend that you didn't do it with all the other things that comes of the help of the community, one of the biggest culture shock for me, because I existed in the culture and the fulfillment where it's all about the intercommunity. You don't exist as a single person. Yes, I think that also is causing us a lot of harm just to think that we have to do everything ourselves, that we're not connected to other people, and that drives us further into our screens, and we keep our heads up our own asses, and when we know that the number one source of happiness for human beings is relationships with other people, before I let you go, is there something I

should have asked you but failed to ask? Is there something you want to talk about that I need to be that? I think we covered this then the final question is, can you please remind us of the name of the book and any other content you've created that you want people to access can you just shamelessly plug please I am let's do this my book horse barbie my memoir will come out May 30 It's available everywhere you could now pre-order it. You could follow me on my Instagram.

That's where I'm the most active. On the link in my bio, you'll see all the other things I have done, the directorial project that I've done with PBS that receive Emmy nominations to all the speeches and all the other projects. I'm it's all in my Instagram bio link. So follow me there.

Awesome. I'll just say in closing that, I mean, one of the amazing parts of my job is that not only that I get to meet incredible people, but that I can help get their stories out into the world and I am very proud to help get your story out there. The way you've done is awesome and wishing you nothing but success going forward.

I'm still enjoying Dan Harris' horse, Barbie. I'm sorry. I didn't say that. You said it. You know, it's the spiritual connection there. You know, that I... Anyway, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. You know, it's been... There's been a lot of coincidence. And I don't know how you explain coincidence, but certainly I recognize that as a coincidence. Obviously we met, we were both speakers head-toed recently. And even like just here, I'm here in my hotel for this conference that we're both part of. I was there, I was at this hotel two weeks ago.

When I checked in for this conference, I walked in. It's the same exact room that I was getting ready at. And when those things happen, I lean into that. Yeah. I, whether it's a twinkle of horse barbie saying, you got this, something is here. So I hope there's more of that. Me too. Thank you.

Thanks. Thanks, Dan. Thanks again to Gina Rosero. Thank you as well to you for listening. Please hit me up on Twitter or through the 10% .com website to share any feedback about this this new format we're experimenting with. Finally, thanks to everybody who worked so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Justin Davy, Tara Anderson, Gabrielle Zuckerman, and Lauren Smith, DJ Cash Kashmir as our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman, as our senior editor and Kimmy Regler, is our executive producer, scoring and mixing by Peter Bonnaventure of Ultraviolet Audio,

and we get our theme music from Nick Thorburn of Islands. We'll see you all on Monday for a brand new episode. We're going to talk to Rain Wilson, who played Dwight Shrute on the office. Hilarious character and my huge fan have been for a long time, I'm sure many of you are as well. He also, and many may not know this, has a really interesting sort of contemplative background and has just written a book calling for what he refers to as a soul-bloom. We'll see you on Monday for that. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on Page Six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellesai. And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wonder E's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud.

From the build-up, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans formed the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed

to fight for Brittany. Follow Disenthal wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or The Wondery App.