Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 614: Your Brain on Food | Dr. Uma Naidoo

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Most of us have an intuitive sense that there’s a pretty serious link between what we eat and how we feel. Today’s guest is here to explain the science behind that relationship.Dr. Uma Naidoo is a pioneer in the field of nutritional psychiatry and an expert on both the gut-brain connection and the food-mood connection. She is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, a professional chef, and a nutrition specialist. She is the Director of Nutritional and Lifestyle Psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) and serves on the faculty at Harvard Medical School. And she is the author of a book called This Is Your Brain on Food: An Indispensable Guide to the Surprising Foods that Fight Depression, Anxiety, PTSD, OCD, ADHD, and More.In this episode we talk about:What the gut-brain connection is, how it works, and why it’s so importantHer contention that “we are in control of how we feel emotionally through the food choices we make every single day”How to leverage nutritional psychiatry to help you handle:---Anxiety---Depression---Sleep disorders---Dementia---PTSD---ADHD---OCDHer thoughts on taking in all of this information without developing orthorexia (an unhealthy obsession with healthy food)Her thoughts on intuitive eatingHow to understand vitamins vs. supplements (and her advice on taking supplements)Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/uma-naidoo-614See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey everybody, we all, I think,, at least intuitively, that there's a pretty serious link between what we eat and drink and how we feel. Drink too much coffee and you might get the zooms. Eat too much dairy and it might tie your insides into knots and make you rather irritable. This has been referred to as the gut brain connection or the food mood connection. So we all understand this, I think intuitively,

but my guest today is gonna help you understand it on a truly fine grain level. If you'll excuse the food pun there. My guest has information about how very specific foods can have very specific effects on your state of mind. Dr. Uma Nidu is a pioneer in the field of nutritional psychiatry. She's a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, a professional chef, and a trained nutrition specialist. She's the director of nutritional and lifestyle psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital, MGH, where my own mother worked

for many, many years. And Dr. Nidu also serves on the faculty at Harvard Medical School, and she's the author of a book called This is Your Brain on Food and Indispensable Guide to the Surprising Foods that Fight Depression, Anxiety, PTSD, OCD, ADHD, and more. In this conversation, we talked about the mechanics of the gut brain and food mood connection and why those are such important processes. Her contention that we are in control of how we feel emotionally through the food choices we make every single day. That's a quote, how to leverage nutritional psychiatry to help you handle,

as mentioned in the subtitle of her book, anxiety, depression, sleep disorders, dementia, PTSD, ADHD, and OCD. Her thoughts on taking in all of this information without developing what has been called orthorexia, which is an unhealthy obsession with healthy food. Her thoughts on intuitive eating, which is a hobby horse of mine, and how to understand vitamins versus supplements and her advice on taking supplements.

This is episode five of a six-part series we're doing called Get Fit, Sainly. If you missed the earlier episodes. I highly encourage you to go check them out. The first week we covered the science of longevity, and then we did a show on how to exercise without being motivated by subtle or unsuddle self-aggression. And this week is all about food, which is a very tricky topic.

So we're gonna dive in today with Dr. Nidu, and then we've got an expert in intuitive eating coming up on Wednesday. A one very quick audio note here, you may hear a few stray background noises on UMAZEND. That is, of course, the nature of remote recording. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different

way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelli McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm all one word spelled out Okay on with the show Hey y'all is your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress singer and entrepreneur on my new podcast

Baby this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from, MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Skiy Palmer, on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast. Dr. Umanaitu, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much, Dan. I'm very excited to be here. I'm excited to have you here. Let me start with a basic question, which is what is nutritional psychiatry? Nutritional psychiatry is the use of healthy whole foods and nutrients to improve your mental well-being, and it does not exclude the use of therapy or other extremely important medications if you might be taking them. It's really meant to work synergistically with everything else that you're doing.

So you're not saying food is the only lever to pull when it comes to mental health. It's an important one, but certainly not the only one. It's always a holistic and integrated approach. And I think that's in my clinical experience what works best for mental wellbeing. There's a quote from your book that I'm going to read back to you that I think seems to sum up or at least and you'll tell me if I'm wrong. To me, it seems to sum up your approach.

And this is the quote, we are in control of how we feel emotionally through the food choices we make every single day. That's exactly right. I feel that that statement that I wrote a few years ago has sort of become what I say now, which is you have the power at the end of your fork. You have the power at the end of your fork. How did you get into this? How long do you have to hear? We've got plenty of time. I always loved food and grew up in a family that had both the cultural influence of spices and healthy food. My mom is a double-borded physician so during the daytime when I was little I spent time with my grandmother watch her cook, help to prepare fresh vegetables and maybe was introduced to food

that way. I noticed a real gap when I was in medical school and then in residency. I was learning how to prescribe a powerful medications, but was not really asking people what they were eating or anything about their lifestyle. Yet these medications have devastating side effects, including things like weight gain, metabolic side effects, changes in libido, and all sorts of things.

And early on, when a patient challenged me, I really understood and saw the true value of interpreting nutrition. And that led me to explore more, learn more, dive deeper into the research. Alongside that, Julia Childe was my food hero. And when I discovered that she went to Calgary School later in life, and I love food so much, I thought, why not me? And I was very blessed and fortunate that these different components of things I loved

to study came together. The emerging science of the gut microbiome was happening alongside all of this. different components of things I loved to study came together. The emerging science of the gut microbiome was happening alongside all of this, and it started to make sense that we needed to find solutions for people around their mental well-being and food was one of those pillars that we could use. That's how I found my clinic at the hospital. I understand you have used this approach in your own life and that it helped you through a bout of cancer. Am I right about that?

You're absolutely right. That was sort of my second aha moment when I kind of unexpectedly became a test patient. And the fact that I was diagnosed very suddenly, well, otherwise feeling quite well, I found myself very, very anxious for the first time in my life just knowing the side effects of medications that I was about to face and thinking to myself, you know, this flurry of activity and diagnosis and treatment, what should I do? And I realized that the thing that was most obvious and that I was talking about every day was something I needed to lean into more. And when that sort of mindset switch happened in my head, I realized that that really was within my power. So I up my game, even

more on how I was eating, what I was doing, including things like a mindfulness practice that really helped reduce my stress. And I was fortunate because I really had very few side effects compared to others, and my doctors was surprised at me every week. And really, what I was doing was clean eating, preparing my own food, not making anything fancy, but just making sure that I was nourishing my body but also my mind. How solid is the science behind nutritional psychiatry?

It's at the point where we know an immense amount about the gut microbiome, but it's full early. This is a nascent field and we're learning more every day. There's enough to create guidance around healthier foods to eat, patterns, nutrients to include, but it's nowhere near a diagnostic approach, which is why it's intended to work alongside other forms of treatment. What would your harshest critics say about it? Probably they would say the science changes all the time. I don't know whether omega-3 is a good or bad for me. I don't know whether soy is something I should eat or not.

The studies change every day. So how do you believe in what you're doing? And I'll answer that question. I think it's ever evolving and we should never assume that we know everything. Always remain humble with the research while discovering new things, but also integrate the research with clinical experience. And I think that's one strength that I have been able to build up slowly in my clinic by seeing the clinical care.

And knowing that the gut microbiome is like a thumbprint for each person makes a very big difference in being able to integrate these differences in research. I want to talk about the gut microbiome in a second, but let me just ask one more over our question here. You have said that you see nutritional psychiatry as something that would exist alongside more commonly accepted modalities like therapy and medication. And yet later on you went on to say that some meds can have devastating side effects. So what is your overall attitude about psych meds if

we're on them? Should we be getting off them? What's your view? I've had medications be lifesaving for some of my patients. So I'm not against them. I feel however that we practice two things in the United States. We tend to practice defensive medicine. So the person comes in with the diagnosis, expecting a medication to help them. There are no lifestyle measures, nutrition, changes, anything done ahead of perhaps helping someone feel better. The other issue is that DSM-5TR, which is our diagnostic and statistical manual, is checklists.

And psychiatry and mental health needed something to capture these diagnoses, but very often someone might have depression with PTSD, problems with focus together with anxiety, we humans, we don't fall into checklists. And that's where having more tools in your toolbox becomes super important. That's when nutrition is powerful. I think that there's a place for medications, especially if someone severely ill, suicidal, manic, psychotic, the very severe illnesses. Sometimes we don't have a choice. But where someone is looking for more solutions and could save

off being under medication, which does come with side effects, I think nutrition can be very powerful. So you think that too often we might go to a doctor, a psychiatrist, and describe our symptoms and often those doctors might be too quick to just put us in a diagnosis bucket and give us meds as opposed to looking at lifestyle stuff around what we're eating, are we exercising, are we getting enough meditation, how are the quality of our relationships, etc. That's correct. I feel it's too cited. I think that patients sometimes come in desperately wanting a medication and feeling that that is the solution. And I also think doctors, the way a medical system is set up, is really largely around prescriptions.

I mean, do doctors have time to dig into this stuff around, you know, what you're reading and how you're living? I mean, I've seen some statistic that they get an average of seven minutes per patient. So how much time does a doctor have to do this work? A doctor may not have a ton of time. It's true the visits are short, but I think it's about asking the question, opening up that line of questioning, and not using all seven or 20 minutes as the different visits may go to necessarily find only a medication solution. I think it can be medication alongside lifestyle measures

as well. I think there are ways to obtain information from patients. You can have them fill out a little survey, a short one, before they come into the office. There are many ways to get around the shortness of that visit, because it is stressful. Doctors have a little time, prescribers have a little time with their patients

to find the solution, but the other thing is that the way that medical insurance works is that, you can build if you're written a prescription. And so it becomes quite pressuring actually. That seems like a quite potentially pernicious dynamic. I think it is. And I feel that's why I've had the luxury of moving away from a typical psychopharmacology practice, which is what many hospital psychiatrists need to do. Because the model is split between someone seeing your patient for therapy,

could be a psychologist, a social worker, a counselor, and you prescribe the medications. So you have that amount of time to decide the medication. And I've been in situations where my productivity in the hospital, which is what brings in the, it doesn't affect my cell read directly, but it affects my productivity scores. And times when someone didn't need a medication and I didn't prescribe a medication and this was earlier on in my career and I was sort of told by one of my supervisors,

well, you know, you're not really can't call them back to chat, they have a therapist to talk to. And yet psychiatrists are trained in psychotherapy as well. So it really reinforced that model of you prescribed the medications and someone else does the talking therapy. And then your billing code is, you know, just for the time and the medication visit. So there we're not going to go there, but yes, it's clearly a long discussion to be had about the overall system here. But just one interesting thing

to perhaps amplify on your part is you did say there are two sides. And so we as patients, I think I heard you say need to yes, medication can be super helpful. And we might want to be talking to our doctors about other tools beyond just medication. I think we should advocate for ourselves and ask what else can be done. Maybe it's a form of exercise, maybe it's a combination of different things, including a sense of community that you alluded to earlier, like the Blue Zones region and the work talks about having a sense of community, your tribe, the surgeon general is talking a lot about loneliness, being a huge factor that's affecting mental well-being. So all of these things become hugely important. Yeah, just to, you know, build on that a little bit. Dan Butner, who is the guy who

is most commonly associated with the blue zones, worked with national geographic and travel around the world and found the places where people were living the longest. And they now call those areas the blue zones. And one of the common denominators there is that people have strong social connections. Yeah, so that, I think, is extremely compelling and something that I'm very interested. And you also talked about Vivek Murti, the current surgeon general who's been here on this show before and he's talking a lot about the loneliness epidemic, maybe pandemic in this

country and in fact around the world and how many negative health and ramifications there are from that. But you and I are here mostly to talk about nutritional psychiatry. So let's go back to that. I'm curious, can you describe to me as a complete layperson what the mechanism is? How is it that what I eat impacts my brain? It's not so if with one of the factors being the gut brain connection, this is a system that is very interesting to understand. The gut and brain

are in different parts of the body, but they rise from the exact same cells in the human embryo. They then divide apart and form these two separate organs. Once they form these organs, they remain connected by the 10th cranial nerve called the vagus nerve, which is, think about it like a two-way text messaging system, really communicating chemical messages between these organs. And then realize that medications like prozac or zolab, prooxytinocetrine, some of the mechanisms are, they are selective serotonin reabtaken inhibitors, so serotonin is often called the happiness hormone.

But 90 to 95% of serotonin, as well as the receptors, are in the gut. So if you've ever known anyone who's taken one of these medications, they may initially have gastrointestinal side effects for that exact same reason. The way that food enters the picture is that there are trillions of microbes that live in the gut microbiome. And when we say gut microbiome, we refer to the genetic material as well. And when we eat, say, a healthy meal, the digestive products interact with those gut microbes and form positive breakdown products called short-chain fatty acids, which are positive in that gut environment. But if we're eating, say, fast foods and unhealthy foods, the breakdown products are more toxic

to that gut environment and start to set up inflammation in that area. Inflammation is being seen as one of the underlying factors for even mental health conditions now, like depression, anxiety, even cognitive disorders. So by starting to eat and continuing to eat in that way, you just setting up your gut microbiome for dysbiosis, which is almost an imbalance in the gut and inflammation being set up because these two organs are connected in a sort of ecosystem when you have inflammation in the gut that leads to inflammation over time in the brain as well. And that's one of the ways to explain that gutrain connection and the food mood connection. Let me see if I can restate that back to I'm going to dumb it down. So we have this microbiome, which is just the billions, maybe trillions of bacteria that

live in our gut. And the gut, I've been referred to as the second brain because it also has a lot of neurons. There's a lot going on in your gut. And when you eat, that causes signals to be sent from the gut to the brain in this two-way text chain. And depending on what you eat, you can create different types of signals. So it's very important that you get strategic about what you're eating so that you're sending the right signals for your brain to be in a reasonably happy place. Am I close? That's great. I love it. It really is trying to simplify the science of the people, understand

the power of food, and that it has these multiple layers of effects. You refer to it by a couple of names, the gut brain connection and the food mood connection. So, I like people to think about it as we spoke about this got brain connection, but by understanding that got brain connection, they sort of start to unfold the food mood connection. So is there a difference between got brain connection and food mood connection? I guess you can have things going on in your gut that have nothing to do with food. You can have a condition that's unrelated to food, but more and more of the science is showing us

that food is a huge impact because of many conditions, even things that have primarily got conditions, which actually may have an emotional component to them. Individuals with things like irritable bowel syndrome, it's not clear if they had depression and anxiety first and which condition led to which. And so I think for me, it's really about helping people understand this sort of ecosystem and what it means in terms of the rest of our body, but especially our brain.

So if I understand this correctly, the food mood connection is kind of a subset of the gut brain connection because for example, you can have an exogenous, you know, event in your life, somebody tells you some news that makes you sad or scared and your stomach drops. And that actually can you can have this connection that plays out in that sense. But then of course, as part of that, it what you eat can have an impact on your mood. Yes. And in fact, research has shown that say you have a stressful day at work, you have an argument with someone close to you that those emotions actually affect the gut microbes. And if they're affected, how they are interacting with our food is also affected. how they are interacting with our food is also affected. Coming up, Dr. Uma Nidu talks about how to leverage nutritional psychiatry to help you handle anxiety, depression, and sleep disorders. Her thoughts on taking in all of this information without developing

orthorexia, in other words, without getting obsessive about what you eat. Her thoughts on intuitive eating and how to understand vitamins versus supplements and her advice on taking supplements. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident

not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about

the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondry app. All right, let's talk about anxiety. Whether or not we have a diagnosis for anxiety, we all, I think, worry whether it reaches a clinical level is another issue. But as it pertains to stress anxiety, worry, what are the good and bad foods?

When it comes to anxiety, it's so prevalent. It feels like everyone has a touch of it these days. But fiber is your friend when it comes to anxiety. High fiber foods, those plant-rich foods, beans, berries, lats, seeds, legumes, healthy whole grains. These foods are rich in fiber, and the way in which fiber slows down your digestion also helps sort of fend off anxiety. When we're in comparison eating a simple carbohydrate like a donut or something, some sweet treat,

these are metabolized very quickly in your body, and often lead to that sugar crash that sometimes people feel. So, high fiber foods are your friend when you're having anxiety. Femented foods are really helpful, they lower information, and this has been shown in research a few years ago, published in Cell in 2021 from a research group at Stanford. So adding a little bit of a fermented food to different meals can be very helpful

for anxiety and lowering inflammation. Certain minerals like magnesium and potassium, you can get this and say avocados. Another mineral is selenium, We can get that in a couple of brisilnets. These are important for lowering anxiety. Shipped-of-fan, people associated with turkey, but it's also found in things like chickpeas. So there are options that people can choose from. And other things that are quite powerful are spices that very often are overlooked.

So tumeric with a pinch of black pepper can be helpful for anxiety. And the black pepper is interesting because the peppermint and black pepper makes the curcumin the active ingredient in tumeric more by available to the brain and body. So it's just worth adding a pinch of that. And something that people overlook are calming teas. So lavender tea, chamomile tea has shown, been shown research to actually help lower the level of anxiety. Do you recommend eating these foods like when we're feeling anxious or doing it in a preventative way? I work with my patients and teach them a breathwork exercise or a short meditation so that when they do feel anxious, they have something that they can use.

And sometimes it's effective and it's helpful that they've practiced it. Similar thing with food. If you're just generally moving away from the standard American diet, which is called sad for a reason, and towards healthier whole foods slowly, steadily, none of us has a perfect diet, but as you do that, you will just naturally be eating in a healthier way and refending off some of these symptoms. But then the specifics for each condition as to what you really should include. So it sounds like a mix. You might want to tailor your diet to whatever your needs are

from a psychiatric standpoint or a psychological standpoint. And there are some foods and other exercises like breathing that you can maybe drink a calming tea if you're freaking out. Correct. It's always an integrated approach. You mentioned beans. I was a vegan for many years now. I'm not, but pretty heavy on plants. I ate a lot of beans and it had a lot of negative effects in my personal happiness and the happiness of the people around me. What do you recommend on that front?

So beans are super healthy. They rich in nutrients, rich in fiber, so great choice. But there's some tricks and tips about using beans. One thing that a person can do is soak their beans overnight, rinse them out, and then sort of slow cook them, or pressure cook them before eating them. That actually tends to reduce things like the lectin level, which can lead to some of the discomfort that people feel, getting a canned organic bean and rinsing it out and using that can be another almost go around kind of avoiding those symptoms. I think for me, the biggest thing has been soaking them

that has helped people the most. I notice you have an anxiety-busting smoothie, the recipe that you posted online, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes, and we'll obviously put information on how people can get your book as well. But I was struck that I believe one of the ingredients in the anxiety -busting smoothie was either chocolate or cacao, and I know, in my case, if I have anything with chocolate in it, it makes me super anxious. I mean, I can't, I have to shut down for the rest of the day. So is that idiosyncratic on my part or is this just something people should watch out for if they're making your smoothie? So there's a lot of good data around extra-dog natural chocolate and mood as well as anxiety.

But each person's microbiome is like a zamprint. So perhaps you are super sensitive to something ingredients and chocolate. And that doesn't work for you. I might ask you, you know, if you drank coffee, does it have a similar kind of effect? Yes. So that, to me, makes a lot of sense. But other people, it can help.

And so using a pure form of dark natural cacao, or what the recipe call for, actually brings cacao flavonols, which are great for your brain. So if you're a person who is sensitive, then you probably want to replace that, or have say a vanilla version of the shake. But if you can tolerate chocolate, then an extra dark natural chocolate works well.

Got it. We're going to keep marching through the various conditions and what we can eat to either treat or prevent them. I do want to ask another overarching question, though, because a concern I would have for myself and for others in implementing your advice would be getting overly fussy or obsessive, I believe the technical term is orthorexia, where you get obsessed with eating in a healthy way and actually that is quite counterproductive. What say you on that front? Orthorexia is really difficult to work with because people become fixated on certain foods. So the way that I speak about in nutritional psychiatry eating plan is that it's really about including more foods and widening

your options and being careful about the things that can offset your condition. So one example is someone who's struggling with their mood, it turns out that nitrates that are found in processed meats can actually worsen anxiety. So they might want to watch out for that. With anxiety, people are trying to come off sugar and they're drinking diet soda. Unfortunately, the artificial sweetness in diet soda can offset the anxiety. So it's about tweaking your lifestyle changes

and how you're eating, not going to any extremes of let's do 10 things, let's exclude things because those types of diets just don't work for people, they're not sustainable. We're doing a whole series as you know about how to get healthy without losing your mind. And I personally, and I'm saying this in a lot of the interviews just so I can be very upfront, I personally have been very influenced by intuitive eating the idea there and you're not in your head, you're familiar with it, but for those who are not, the idea that you should eat what you want when you want in the portions that you want with two

important caveats. One is, she'll listen to your body about when you're hungry and when you're not. And two, you should have a in the background, a gentle understanding of nutrition. So it's not like, you know, you just eat twizzlers all day long. So I've been very influenced by that. And in that I had spent many years in my life, sort of, you know, state of orthorexia. And this was a really nice, a corrective. So I'm not saying everybody should do it, but it's really helped me. And so when I hear you talk about some of the worrying effects of sugar or simple carbs or nitrates which show up in, you know, salami or bacon and things like that, I do get a little worried personally of like, oh, well, I don't know, I don't want to spend too much time getting too

fussy or thinking about these foods in a moralistic way, you know, calling them sinful. So what feedback would you give me to all of the words I just flung in your direction? I think that food is much about sort of finding your own level of either intuitive eating, your level of comfort with the things that you want to eat. I think that when we either demonize certain food ingredients or we label them. So if someone is trying to come off sugar and is trying to supplement their three sodas with the diet soda, I commend them because it's all along a pathway of trying to move in a healthier direction. So I try to stay away from this is wrong or this is right, but I guide people around what has worked and where the research is at from what we know.

I don't actually want people to become fixated on things. I share facts with them so that they know this actually could be accelerating my anxiety. I had someone who, the exact situation was drinking a ton of dide-soda thinking, I'm no longer drinking those three sodas, I can have six diet sodas because that's what I enjoy drinking and had a huge uptick in anxiety. So it's just knowing these little things that can help you tweak what you're doing

without making extreme changes. I think what tends to happen, and I'm not referring to you in this, but I think in the country we have these diet wars and food dilemmas that are ongoing, and it's, you know, this eat this mentality and exclude that. And I think that's where people get into trouble.

Of course, if you can't eat something like gluten because you have celiac disease, you can't eat it, right? There's a medical reason behind it. But I think people just have a lot of these conversations around what's the thing I shouldn't be eating this week kind of thing, and I think that's where it's hard. Yeah. I think where I land with this and tell me what you think is back to intuitive eating, it's pretty, I'm gathering data all the time, like how do I feel when I eat this thing?

So I know that if I have a bunch of candy on an airplane ride with my son as I did the other day, I might fall asleep or I might get more anxious than I otherwise would. Similarly, I might not feel good if I have pancakes in the morning or bacon with the nitrates. But I sometimes consciously decide to have it anyway because it's what's available or I just want to eat it. Or you feel like it. You feel like eating it. Yes. So I'm not ruling it out, but I generally, I'm not having it that any of those things

that often because I know how it's going to make me feel. So one of the things I talk about down is the Political Nutritional and Psychiatry. And one of them is finding that sense of balance. And what that balance means to you. And there's this guideline that I offer people around sort of an 80, 20 rule, which is, you know, try for about 80% of the time. It doesn't have to be exact.

But let's just say most days. And there might be other days that you, with your son, you go to birthday party and you come across a cupcake or something else. So if you're traveling or you simply feel like eating something that you wouldn't ordinarily eat or you might know has something. Having that piece of bacon is not going to immediately make you feel something. You know, there may be a nitrate free bacon that you can find. So I think it's really finding what works for you and being able to be open about the choices you make.

When people feel that they have to give something up or eliminate something, I think that's when it doesn't feel that you can intuit your way through what you're eating. Mm-hmm, that's helpful. All right, let's keep going with the various conditions that we can work with via our nutrition. What are the best foods for depression?

So some of the best foods are things that you have heard about, like omega-3 fatty acids, which you can get from different types of fatty fish like salmon, but you can also get plant-based sources from chia seeds, flax seeds. The absorption is slightly different, but these are good mood foods. Another group of foods are probiotics. People tend to think that, you know, this has to be a supplement,

but you can have active cultures in plain yogurt and in other foods as well as fermented foods. Fermented foods are great. We talked about this earlier, but they fend off information and can be super helpful. Another food group that people think about more is the supplement are prebiotics, but you actually get prebiotics in berries, garlic,

leeks, onions, asparagus and things like that. So these are great options to include in your everyday foods. The types of fats like extra virgin olive oil, avocado oil, and nut butters, really great sauce of those marinated and saturated fats. And minerals, B vitamins, B9, which is vitamin B, or called folate, is found in leafy greens. So just by including those healthy green salads in your diet, you are improving your level of folate and low folate is associated with the low mood. So that's a good one to tap into.

And the other B vitamins are vitamin B12, which is great for mood. So that's another group of foods that you should be trying to eat. Spices, saffron has a lot of good data around improved mood. But the studies of saffron used a supplemental form because we don't cook with much saffron. So that's an example of, well, ask someone to talk to their doctor about finding it the best supplement for them because saffron can definitely help mood. You've mentioned supplements a bunch and I actually guess I have a question on a sort of a definitional tip here. What's the difference between a vitamin, you know, I take some vitamins and a supplement or a vitamin is a kind of supplement?

Phatamins are kind of supplement, but supplements are a whole category in our United States, and they can be from, you know, saffron, which I mentioned to Ashwagandha. The issue with supplements is they're not as regulated as prescription medications, so making sure to discuss it with the clinician, finding a clean supplement, meaning a well-made one, would become important. We continue to do ongoing research about vitamins. So we know that vitamin B12 is great for the brain. We know the foods that you find at end. The reality with a lot of vitamins and even minerals, you can use a food first approach. But there might be other things that people need to supplement.

And that's usually something based on a clinical assessment, blood test, depending on what might be going on or just symptoms that they doctors noticing. I asked another guest in this series this question, but I'll ask you too. How should we know, given what a large and unregulated world supplements are. How should we know what to take? Is that something we should be doing in conjunction with our doctor? I think so. The reason is that they can advise you on the quality of the supplement.

They may have had good experience with it, may know some of the research on what it is. I think the test don't guess approach is always good. For example, I live in the final at least and a lot of people may be deficient in vitamin D, but it's always important to test your vitamin D level before you just go ahead and supplement. So speaking to your doctor, getting the right test is just always good idea. Yeah, my doctor told me and I'm quoting here that my vitamin D was in the toilet and so I now take vitamin D. You can also spend 10 minutes outdoors every day in addition to supplement because 10 minutes of direct exposure to sunlight not through a window

will actually provide 80% of your vitamin D. So along that, you'll be good to go in a little bit. Yes, I've gotten quite intentional about getting outside on the regular, and I had some non-lethal skin cancer taken out of my face 15 years ago, and so I have to be pretty careful about how much I do. Anyway, who cares, that's boring. But actually, if you remind me saying that's a super important point, because I only say 10 minutes and then put on your sunscreen, because you don't want to just take that idea and think you're upping your vitamin D. You're still being exposed to the sun. So really important.

I'm glad you said that. Thank you. Getting back to our list here, sleep disorders. Another one that hits close to home for me. So what do we, what can we eat? Yeah, sleep has been super hard, especially with the pandemic and so much so that insomnia is being called corona-somnia. And there are definitely ways that we can use foods that naturally contain melatonin, things like eggs, fish, oats, walnut, sunflower seeds, contain melatonin. And if someone consumes eggs, usually suggested them having an omelette for dinner

with these different vegetables and other foods can actually help kind of calm their system down. Omega-3 fatty acids as well can be super helpful. There has been a food called tart cherries and tart cherry juice was tested and you will see it in certain natural food markets. Just watch for any added sugar. The tart cherry juice actually helps people sleep.

And there are also things like chamomile tea, foods with the substance called alp onathine, like soybeans and quinoa, and tryptophan and turkey or chickpeas, potentially helpful to kind of calm the body down, calm the mind down. But as we talk about foods, sleep hygiene is equally important. Not doing your supermarketing, late at night under bright lights, shutting off your phone and your television

and other things earlier on in the evening, because if you're falling asleep watching these screens They definitely affect your sleep and circadian rhythm. So those are some ways to get started So on the issue of melatonin that's also a supplement you can take I do I take a milligram melatonin most days A lot of people do if I was having an omelet for dinner, would I not need that supplement? I think it depends on how you feel. You know, like you talked about intuitive eating, you could try that and you could see over time if just having the eggs and having it with things like asparagus and some flax

seeds mixed in will actually help you sleep pattern. I often think it's a combination of things. The issue with melatonin recently was that they were finding that some of the gummies that were being marketed for children had a higher level than the labeling and things like that. So melatonin just in general, as a short term sleep supplement is fine,

especially if your doctor knows what you're taking and is aware, but you can also try that alongside food. Is it true that too much melatonin can have negative impacts? That's certainly what I've seen in the research. So I think staying on a low dose, making sure you're discussing with your provider and not just continuously upping the dose,

because I have seen people do that. They think because it's an over the counter supplement that they have access to that they can just increase it. And I think that's when it can become problematic. Got it. Coming up, Dr. Nidu talks about how to leverage nutritional psychiatry to help you handle dementia, PTSD, ADHD, and OCD, the commonalities, among virtually all of her recommendations, and the pillars of nutritional psychiatry.

Another condition you talk about in your book is dementia. Before we get into dementia, just a question. Are you talking about foods that you can eat if you have dementia or if you're foods that you can eat in order to stave it off? To stave it off. And to some extent, no, it's more to stave it off. So thinking about eating in a way that say you have a propensity to have issues with dementia, it could be helpful in just how you are eating

and your lifestyle changes. So what are the foods that we should look at for dementia? Sure, so the mind diet is one that was heavily researched. And it really is a diet that's kind of rich in those healthy leafy green vegetables, colorful vegetables, bays, nuts, olive oil, whole grains, beans, poultry, and some of the spices that showed up, but things like turmeric, black pepper, cinnamon, saffron, rosemary, ginger, and sage. So just preparing your food and using little bits of these

spices can be helpful. With some people, if they tolerate coffee, research so that having some coffee, keeping it under 400 milligrams a day was useful. And Oliver was actually found and thought to be helpful. So the mind died as the background and then building in some of these other nutrients. The other thing I will say about cognition and potential cognitive disorders is that one of the things you want to think about is how to eat for an unureuon inflammation and one of the ways that you can fend that off is just kind of improving moving towards a healthier whole foods diet, but also anti-inflammatory foods, which are actually included in the

mind diet. All the foods you just listed are anti-inflammatory. Yes, the ones in the mind diet are like the colorful vegetables, with those plant polyphenols, leafy greens, all of those. You know, we're talking about the specific foods for these specific conditions. And I'm sitting here thinking, oh, well, at least the four conditions we've talked about thus far anxiety, depression, insomnia, and a desire not to have dementia, which does run in my

family. I've got all four of those. And I'm like, I'm not going to, you know, do everything you just listed. I guess I find myself falling back on, okay, I can see some broad commonalities here like eat whole foods a lot of leafy greens and that seems to be putting you in the right direction I definitely think so remember Dan that you know in the country most people are consuming the standard make and diet Which is very rich in highly processed foods and fast foods and foods that are really high in sugars. So I think that any movement we can make along a continuum is important. And it really shouldn't be overwhelming for any person to just make a slow and steady change.

And I think the people who really want to do this, are people who have certain symptoms that they're struggling with and they want to do this, people who have certain symptoms that they're strung with, and they want to work on. So having a nutritional psychiatry plan and working with those foods, and you write there, some dietary patterns that really help like the Mediterranean eating pattern, no Mediterranean diet shows up a lot. But that is rich in plant foods, you know, certain types of seafood, whole tree nuts and seeds and olive oil, avocados, and things like that. So there are definitely patterns that a person can move toward to improve things to themselves.

Let's keep going with our list here. People talk about trauma a lot these days. So let's talk about PTSD and what you can eat. Vera sufferer. You know, with PTSD, it's hugely important for a person to be involved with some form of therapy, some supportive environment that is helping them work through whatever is going on, in a way that feels natural and supportive to them. Lubase actually showed up here. We know them to be rich in anthocyanins and antioxidant

that has powerful antioxidant as well as anti-inflammatory properties, but we're supposed to actually help with symptoms of trauma. So just I think adding these in a good idea, omega-3 fatty acids, again, from seafood or plant-based sources, vitamin E, also was helpful. One of the things I find really important with PTSD is the foods to be a little bit careful often. The interesting thing here is that glutamates are often found in otherwise healthy foods, but they can worsen symptoms of trauma. They found in foods like miso, parmesan, cheese, and oyster sauce, for example. And unfortunately, these glutamates and glutamic acid can worsen symptoms of trauma. So just being aware of that, sometimes can help a person eat healthy foods, but be wary that some of these, if they're rich in, those glutamates can affect them.

Two more conditions to zip through ADHD. So important, and so many adults are being diagnosed with ADHD as well now. One of the things that happens is that if a person is taking a medication, a stimulant for ADHD, it tends to suppress their appetite, but studies have shown that eating breakfast is really important for ADHD. So, unless you're doing intermittent fasting or intuitive eating, try to consider breakfast just to help and see if that makes a difference for you. Holly Fienals found things like berries, cherries, foods like kale, green tea, very helpful and very important. Vitamin C, and believe

it or not, in addition to citrus fruit, vitamin C is often found in kiwi and red bell peppers and pretty high amounts, and then foods with a zinc and magnesium. One of the things that was interesting here is that certain types of dairy, if you consume dairy, were found to be potentially problematic, specifically a type of milk protein, which were the A1 milk casings. And in fact, if you do buy milk and you go to the supermocked, you'll now see milk that's labeled A2. And that might be an option for those children or adults that consume dairy or just find an alternate

to that type of milk. We do know that sugar is being an issue, so that's not going to be a surprise, but I think it's natural sugar is very different from the candy bars and candy. And finally, a obsessive compulsive disorder. Yeah. So this as well, people can, and I've seen this clinically, can have an uptake of symptoms when they have certain natural forms of glutamates in their diet. So just something to be aware of. But here, foods that are helpful, fresh vegetables, including things like navy beans or green beans, because they contain something called myonacetol. Glicene is a nutrient found in meat, fish, legumes, spinach, cauliflower that were potentially very helpful. And an acid,

our cysteine can be taken as a supplement, but you can also consume cysteine-rich foods, and these foods include things like whole grains, eggs, broccoli, red pepper, and onion. So, you know, in this is your brain on food, each chapter describes a condition, but describes the foods to try to include, and those to try to avoid if you have symptoms of that particular condition.

But it's really a guide to your point earlier, not necessarily to become fixated on it, but what are the foods I can start to include to make myself feel better? Or what are the foods I can potentially cut back on slowly and watch to see how I feel. Earlier, you mentioned that there are these six pillars of nutritional psychiatry. I thought maybe it would be good to zip through these six as a way to conclude this interview,

because I might just leave people with this sort of right mindset to proceed. The first pillar is B-hole, EAT-hole. You've talked about this quite a bit, but maybe you could just say a little bit more. Sure. The example I like to give, because I feel people remember this, is, you know, eat the arms, skip the store bought orange juice, because the juice has no fiber and a lot of added sugar. But if you eat the orange, it just has the whole food. Another one that people have heard but they don't link to mental health is eat the rainbow. The more colors of fruit and vegetables that you include,

the more plant polyphenols are interacting with your gut microbes and the more fiber you're consuming. So it's just a great way to bring both those nutrients and lots of vitamins and minerals to your diet. Leafy greens we've touched on because I talked about folate, which is vitamin B9. Just to jump in a second, she's doing the six pillars. So the first one was B-hole, E-hole. The second is E-the rainbow, which Dr. Nido just referenced. The third is the greener, the better. Carry on.

So the greener, the better is about including those leafy greens. The fourth one in no particular order, by the way, is tap into your body intelligence. I actually used spoke about earlier in terms of intuitive eating, what makes you feel good, what do you feel like eating. And if you notice not feeling good or some brain fog or lack of energy, ask yourself what you've been eating that may have brought that on. The next one I also touched on when I talked about the 80-20, a sort of idea which is consisting in balance, a key, for most of the time, try your best to eat and help you away. And the rest of the time, allow for some flexibility

to live your life, be beholden to certain rules and not feel fixated on changing specific things. And the last pillar because anxiety so rampant is avoid anxiety triggering foods. And again, for those of us who heard it, but it zipped by, can you remind us what are the primary culprits when it comes to anxiety triggering food. Oh sure. So the anxiety triggering foods are things like those artificial sweetness that we mentioned in refined sugars, added sugars, these are problematic processed foods contain industrialized seed oils, fast foods the same, and these are prone flammatory. So these do not help your gut and in fact start to cause inflammation and

watching out for the trans fats and foods. In other words, the wrong types of fats which could really tip the balance toward anxiety. Let me ask you a couple of concluding questions here. One is what did I fail to ask? Is there something I should have asked but didn't? One is, what did I fail to ask? Is there something I should have asked, but didn't? I suppose something that I've been doing which is, and you wouldn't know, what are the next steps in where this field is developing or growing.

Great, well, tell me, where is the field going? So, you know, the research continues. I'm excited about the research around the gut microbiome as we learn and do more, but, I'm really excited that clinicians are interested in wanting to at least learn some of these techniques to work with in their practice and help more patients. So I developed a training program at Mass General that trains clinicians and so an online program that they can take and really it's the first level, it's our first series and we plan to build on it, but it's really about being able to have any

clinician incorporate some principles into their practice as part of that conversation. You know, mentioned how we don't have the time, sometimes we don't have the questions either, so a little bit of that training will help to grow more practitioners and clinicians in this field. What about people listening to this who want to really take a deep dive beyond just reading your book? They may want to actually see a nutritional psychiatrist. I mean, how many of you are there? This is a nascent field. And the whole purpose of me designing this program is to grow more clinicians both in the

US and worldwide, because that way people have access to this type of care. So it is a nascent field, and I cannot say that the average psychiatrist is practicing this way. But I think the more clinicians of all disciplines will start to work in this field, the better for all of us. So for now, if we don't have access to you, we could read your book and then ask informed questions of our mental health care providers. Definitely read my book. I also use Instagram and other social media platforms, surely for education. So there's always updated research on going debates about which food someone's feeling upset by recently. Very interesting. But it's always backed by research. So, that way it's a resource for people to learn and do more. And I have another book coming up later this

year, really focusing on what I saw in the pandemic, which is so much anxiety and how to really eat for your better mental health. So there are resources that we're building out there. And I think go in and form, do you speak to your providers so that you can ask some questions? Why do people get so emotional about food, the diet wars that you referenced earlier?

What do you think is driving that? I think some of it is not having access to well-betted information. I'm seeing either social media, a certain person or influencer talking about excluding or including a food or that type of thing. And I think that food is something incredibly primitive to humans. When a baby is born, the baby cries, so we know that the baby can breathe at the baby feats, mother nurses the baby, or the baby is fed, and the baby will need to poop at some point. So it's incredibly primitive drive. And I think there's something about that that people just get so heated about their point of view or certain food. And it can be very heated at the time. So I think I try to guide people towards just sensible way forward with pure rules

and just more guidance around those healthy foods that you can include and what foods you can replace or versions that can be healthier to just move you along a healthier continuum. It's interesting because we don't get heated around pooping and breathing, but we do around food. And I suspect a lot of this has to do with the fact that we've sent so many negative and damaging cultural messages about what you should eat, how you should look, and we've got such a prevalence of eating disorders, and it's not just women men too, or they often disguise it as biohacking. So I suspect there's something in there too. I agree with that, and I see it, and I do think there's a strong cultural influence in how we perceive certain things in that people think about diets as being restrictive

when I think that I'm trying to really flip that equation to make us feel there are more foods that we can eat. And we just have to watch out for a few that could be driving certain symptoms. Right. So you really, you've said this before, but I'm just reflecting it now that your goal is not to give us hard and fast rules, some sort of dogmatic diet, really to give overall guidelines that can actually make us feel more free rather than less. That's great way to put it, in fact, I might quote you on that. But in addition to that, it is back my science. And I think that while this field is nascent

and evolving, ongoing research is still coming out, which shows us the science of the gut microbiome, for example, and helps us understand foods better. I think the direction we're going to go and ultimately is more precision and personalized medicine. And I think that's where the different companies working on gut microbiome testing are going to be very influential in informing the research. But is that testing widely available now? It's not. It's not, and it's not covered by insurance, and that's why it's still in discovery. Next, Jan. All right, the final question is,

you've already mentioned your book and your social media and this training course for clinicians, but maybe you can just recapitulate all of it into one big blast of plugging if you don't mind. I hope people will check out my book which is called This is Your Brain on Food. You can find me on my website, umanidumd.com. Follow me on social media which is at DR-UMA-NA-I-D-O-O. DR, UM-A, NAIDOO, and check out my course. I have the links in my Instagram account. You can join my newsletter.

Please do, and we'll send you the link directly. And really just interact with us. I feel like mental health is so important and something that we are not necessarily finding the best solutions for. And I think food and lifestyle can be one of them. Dr. Huma Nidu, thank you very much. Thanks so much Dan, great to talk to you. Thanks again to Dr. Nidu. Thanks to you for listening. If you got a second go rate or review us, that actually makes a huge difference, so thank you for that in advance.

And thanks most of all to everybody who worked so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davy Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer Marissa Schneiderman as our senior editor and chemi regular. He's our executive producer, scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet audio. And we get our score from Nick Thorburn of the Great Indy Rock Band Islands. We'll see you all on Wednesday for the final episode of our series, Rachel Hartley, we'll be here talking about a her book, Gentle Nutrition, which is really an intuitive eating book.

It's all about what has often been called the Anti-Diet, which is a super provocative and for me, extremely helpful system. So that's coming up on Wednesday. So that's coming up on Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts.

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