Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 77: Jen Kirkman, Comedian, Author

Episode Date: May 10, 2017

Stand-up comedian Jen Kirkman was introduced to meditation at a young age and over the years has tried a bunch of different outlets, from 'body scan' practice to mantra to meditation classes, to help her deal with panic disorder, depression, anxiety and the chaos of a hectic schedule in the entertainment industry. Kirkman, who even includes a whole bit about her practice as part of her stand-up routine, offers a very interesting take on meditation, not only as it pertains to everyday life but also as it pertains to someone trying to be creative and funny. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

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Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from. And where's Tom from my space? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Jen Kirkman cut my attention because I saw some article about her doing a stand-up routine in which she talked about meditation. I had no idea from the article whether she actually did meditation, but she does. And actually she's pretty serious about it, although she underplays how serious she is as you will hear. She is, if you don't know anything about her,

a very successful stand up comedian. She's got two specials on Netflix. She's written a bunch of books and has a really interesting take on meditation. Not only does it pertains to just an average human life, but as it pertains to somebody who's trying to be creative and funny, I give you Jane Kirkman. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

I'm so nervous because I'm like, what if I'm not enough of a meditation? We've had people on who don't meditate at all. It's a whole range. I do it every day, but I feel it's all over the place. When did you start? Sort of 20 years ago, but then I went in and out, but the past like three years I've been doing it every day. 20 years ago.

So you're way ahead of this trend. Well, when I was in college, I had a dance teacher who taught us all kinds of things like that. And then I went to a therapist who taught me about being mindful. And then she said it was a kind of meditation. And so I started doing it. And then I took a fear of flying course,

and they talked about it there. So yeah, that's where I learned it. But it didn't work for me at first. Well, what do you mean it didn't work for you? Well, because I used to have panic disorder. That's why I went to the therapist originally. Used to, you actually got over it. Yeah, I used to have it pretty bad every day. And then I had it only when flying. And now it's sort of when it appears, like when a panic attack starts, I'm like, Ugh, here we go. You know, I just sort of talked

to it that way. It might still happen, but it's, it's very quick. What would bring it on? And out of the blue. Really? What I notice now is if a thought pops in that I don't really know is there that sort of scares me, it always the deeper level is always like, you're alone in the universe, in this moment. No one can get you, you're not safe.

It's always in that vein. Yeah, interesting. But if I'm over tired, over caffeinated, something that will, if the thought comes up and I'm not in the right physical place, that brings it on one time. Recently, though, I had one recently and I haven't had one as I call in real life in years. Like, sometimes I get them on like long flights. I mean, like to Australia, I'll get a little panicky. But I was on the subway and I was reading and I missed my stop and it went Above ground on the bridges, which normally I'm fine with but because I didn't mean to be going that far

I just got a panicky like what if it gets stuck and then I thought I'm having a panic attack and so I'll carry like a dissolvable clonipin Yeah, and I have to decide is it bad enough for that? And if it's not, I'm going to talk myself out of it. Just knowing you have it can be a stop on the thing. Yeah, that's kind of it. It's so interesting you say that if you're overcaffeinated or retired because my shrink who's an expert in panic, the most important thing he said in order to protect yourself against panic attacks

is to take care of yourself. Get enough sleep, exercise, all of that stuff. He uses an animal analogy and then years later I brought it back up to him. I was like, remember that time he told me, I got to treat myself like a stallion. He's like, no, no dude, I said thoroughbred. Oh, what a difference. I heard stallion because of, thoroughbred is a horse that you have to take care of. A stallion is like a big scrap band.

Oh, got it, right. I, of course, heard stallion. But anyway, I think it's super important because if you have the tendency to freak out, if you're in a weakened state emotionally or physically, you're much more prone to freak out. Yeah. Anyway, I digress. I want to go back to the,

oh yeah, why didn't work. Well, that and also what specifically you were doing, like what did your dance teacher teach you to do? What did your shrink teach you to do as a, like what were they saying to do in your mind during those meditation practice? Dance teacher, I remember a little less. We would do yoga and things like that.

She was, she's still here on Earth with us, but she was in the original production of hair. She knew Bob Fossy. You know, she was in the 60s in New York, and so she would just in the middle of class, like, kids, let's go to the park and do yoga. So sometimes we would do things like that, and she would tell us, we need to sit quietly sometimes. So she was more just sit quietly sometimes. And then the shrink I saw said, you need to be mindful. So you don't know what thoughts you're thinking that are causing these panic attacks. You're used to probably talking to yourself negatively

and scaring yourself all day long, and you don't even know it. Like a news crawl that's always going. And so she said, I want you to do this exercise, take a shower and only think about what you're doing. This is the soap. Now I'm leathering it. So I had to do exercises like that. Not necessarily.

I was in sitting meditation. They were mindful exercises. And so yeah. Meditation nonetheless. Yeah. I came to realize that later that you don't have to necessarily be sitting there. But yeah, and so then she started teaching me about mindful breathing. And then I took this fear flying course. That was about the same thing.

We were assigned to meditate for a half an hour every night, more of the visual meditation. But I have a weird thing where my panic always came from, my biggest fear is losing my breath and not being able to breathe and being stuck like that. And so I don't like to focus on my breathing because it scares me. And also because I took dance for so long, I think I haven't been conditioned to, I breathe the opposite of what you're supposed to. I kind of breathe in and suck it in. I don't have that like breathe out and expand. I kind of breathe in and suck it in. I don't have that like breathe out and expand. I don't know how to do it.

So I get caught up with, I'm doing it wrong. And then I feel like I can't breathe. And so for me, thinking about the breath is the last thing I want to do. So usually when they say think about the breath, I just try to notice what it's doing. But I don't, whenever I take any kind of class where they tell us when to breathe in and out, my breathing is always so different that I start getting upset. Yeah, you know, it's not uncommon what you're describing. Oh, really? No, it's not uncommon and your circumstances are a little unique, but generally speaking, there are a lot of people who don't like to be told to focus on the breath because it makes them anxious. And so there are lots of other options like doing a body scan, just feeling sensations

at the top of your head, your forehead, and moving down. You can do loving kindness meditation where you're like deliberately sending good vibes to people which is a little sappy. But I like to do those to people that I don't like. That's actually the ultimate dream move. Can you do it to people you don't like? Because that's training, that's building your compassion muscle

in the most extreme way possible. It's funny, I do it often, but I don't, I always thought the secret to it was you're really just sending it to yourself. If that makes sense. And then sometimes sending it to yourself is sending it to the person you really don't like. Oh, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, because I'm one less terrible energy in this world. No, but a lot of us don't like ourselves. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I think I finally got to the place where I like myself, but yeah, I can do that. Body scan is amazing. Totally. I always think of body scan as something I should do if I'm having trouble sleeping, but body scan one time I used it when I was really sad.

And it brought me into my body. It brought, it was actually the perfect thing to do instead of thinking of doing one of those send kindness to someone that's hurt me or that kind of thing. Yeah, body scan is a great one. It's like having, it's about having kind of a limited, not too many options because I think too much mixing and matching can be confusing. If you

got a pretty good set of moves to make and you need some meditation or you feel like you want to do it as part of your daily upkeep but having one or two three four things to choose from can make a huge difference. Yeah, that's gonna what I do. I'm like a meditation cheater, I guess. That's not cheating. That you're a meditator, full stop, period. I always feel like I need to pick one kind of being to it, but I can't.

It's just always what I've been like with everything. I mean, I would say, when you say, I want to know more, but what are the range of options you're choosing from? So there's one I just made up. So I do that in the morning and I put on really loud, what I don't know, Tibetan singing balls. You can just find any of it on YouTube.

And I just turn that up super loud. And I sit, sometimes I sit cross-legged. Sometimes I don't even get out of bed yet because I won't do it. So I sit up and I sit cross-legged on the bed, but it's the first thing I do when I wake up. And I'm more open to it if I do it at that moment. And I just, I know I said I don't like to focus on breathing, but I don't make myself breathe a certain way.

I breathe in and I think something and I breathe out and I think something. What do you think? So I might think anything from I am loved to breathing into I am soothed if it's something where I need to Give myself compassion or or I might breathe in I trust the process, you know something usually it's sort of a subtle mantra about just I'm not in control of anything and I'll breathe that out

someone and I use God loosely as as sort of like Breathe in whatever the concept that you don't control the ocean. But I heard someone say once that they do, breathe in God, breathe out, and then your name, breathe out Jen. So it's like a way of saying, like, I am not running the show today. So I'll do any of those kind of things, or body scan,

but usually it's that kind of thing. And then I never sit and do mindful. I'm not great at that alone. I have to be in a class. But you will do that. You will go to class occasionally. Yeah. And then, yeah.

So, yeah, so if I don't meditate, the first thing in the morning, about three times a week I go to class. And they're about half hour, 45 minutes. In New York, I go to mindful and then DFL. Yes. I love to grow a wrenzler who owns it as a friend. Oh, really?

Yes. I've always wondered how that came about, and I'm so glad it's here, because we didn't have anything like that when I used to live here. Now there are three. Loadger has three of them. And there's another place, a competitor, that opened up in the flydart and district called InScape.

So this is a real trend. You're not a very good friend by announcing the I encourage many flowers to look. Um, yeah, so I didn't have that when I lived here years ago I mean it was not a thing and then in Los Angeles, there's a place called the den. Yes, yeah pretty new pretty new and what's interesting is that the woman that runs it was a executive of an NBC and was just Done with that life and so opened up this meditation spot. And so they have all different kinds of classes. So I've really enjoyed, so that's the meditation I'll do at home.

And sometimes at night, I'll do a body scan before bed, just to go to sleep. There's that app to stop breathing, could you hear it a bit? Yeah, it's not as good as the 10% happier app, but it's. Oh, that's right. I have to get that. I actually don't use the stop-free think app that much

because I don't like people talking. I actually think it is a good app. And there are actually tons of good. Headspace is also really good. I think there are, I mean, just in the spirit of many flowers blooming, I mean, I'm partial to the one that I built, but, or built, helped build. But, um, there are lots of really good ones.

Yeah. Lots of really good ones. But you don't like guided meditations that we're... Sometimes I don't. It just depends. But I'll throw one on if I'm just sort of in a neutral place where I don't really have any particular thing I'm trying to achieve that day. So I might do the morning one.

That's just being appreciative of the morning or welcoming the day. But usually I don't. And a lot of times it just has to do with the sound of the voices. Right, because they're annoying. Yeah, it's definitely. Yeah, absolutely. That's why it's important to find the teacher you like and then download all of his or her stuff.

Well, I've noticed I like the meditation teachers in New York better. I'm an East Coast person, so there's this, I love hippie-dippy, like, hi everybody, I love that. But there's just something about the New York teacher seem to, I don't know what it is. They just seem to walk the walk a little more. There's a little more of a,

G.I. bet you're in your car screaming in five minutes from the teachers in LA, where they're just like, and you know, just see where it goes. And I'm like, oh, you are an angry person. And there's something about the New York ones where they let you can sort of see the complete person that happens to have a great understanding of this and a great practice, but they're not acting like they 24 hours a day behave this way. Anybody, I get very suspicious of people who will tell you that they act that way 24 hours a day.

It's not like it's possible. No, and I would think, I mean, I'm not a Buddhist, but aren't you one, your Buddhist, aren't you? That's not the... That means less than you might think. But it's not the teachings of the Buddha to be a perfect, if that's perfection, to be that way. Well, the Buddha gets to come up with it. Or to achieve it, he doesn't expect that we are going to achieve it. Exactly. Well, I mean, he wants everybody to become enlightened,

but you know. Well, he didn't know how that was going to get. Yes. I think that, I think you have to hold that pretty lightly. I don't know anybody who's fully enlightened. You. My teacher, a guy named Joseph Goldstein, is the closest human being that I've personally met to,

you know, who I know well in a 360-degree way. He is the closest person I've ever met to. I've never really seen him just like lose his junk. I went, oh, in chat for a few minutes. And not annoying about it. I find Jack Cornfield to be that same way. I don't know him, but I listen to his podcast. And that, have you heard of Noah Levine? Sure. I've gone to meditation at that place as well.

Yeah. That's really, I think, more of the real deal than a lot of the places in Los Angeles I've been to. But I got into Kundalini meditation. I don't know anything about that. I don't either. I mean, I'll tell you about the classes I went to. There's always someone there with the, I don't know what the mean, I'll tell you about the classes I went to. There's always someone there with a...

I don't know what the outfit is, but usually a white robe with a something wrapped around their head, but it's just a woman that lives in L.A. I don't think she dresses like that all the time, but she will... You know, you calm your breath down and then you repeat a mantra and they tell you what it is. And actually for me, repeating something out loud really helps no thoughts come into my head. And I know that's not the goal, but for people who are obsessed with thinking meditation is about not thinking.

It's really hard to keep repeating something, especially in another language, and let your thoughts stay with you. It's a mantra, and you're just saying it out loud and saying it's saying it internally. Oh, no, we're saying it out loud. Yeah, that mantra, and you're just saying it out loud and saying it's saying it internally. Oh, no, we're saying it out loud. Yeah, that's what I think. You're saying it out loud instead of saying it internally.

I mean, this thing of clearing your mind or not thinking is such a tricky issue. Yeah. What you're trying to do is focus your mind. And when you're saying a mantra, you're focused on the mantra, and a lot fewer thoughts can invade. So it's basically a way of saying you're using that mantra,

gets you more concentrated. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Can I just abuse you if something though? Yeah. You're not a meditation cheater. What you described to me sounds like a really healthy, awesome practice. I guess so.

I just, you know, it's the way I go about everything. I have different ways that I dress. I have different schedules every day. I've always wanted to be the person who has a schedule. It's always the same. You know those people that you'd usually fashion designers that are like this. I wear a black t-shirt and black pants every day, and I do the same thing every day. And this is how I do it. And this is the time. I've been obsessed with being that my whole life because I am not like that.

So of course it comes to meditation. I feel the same way as I am not like that. So of course, when it comes to meditation, I feel the same way as I do about everything else. So you feel indisciplined or? Yeah, and yet I am very disciplined. It's just that every day looks different and I cannot usually, I don't have the kind of life where I can 100% plan my day 24 hours in advance. Yeah, I wish I could just release you

from that kind of self-glatilation because I don't think you need, you sound to me. You're doing much more than most meditators do. I think so. It sounds to me like you're getting a lot out of it. I'm getting a ton out of it. I mean it's actually That thing where we were talking about where people aren't nice 24 hours a day. I mean I'm still I have a thing where I say to people. Oh, I'm not feeling this in my heart. This is intellectual, funny anger. So I'm up here, I'm pointing to my head right now, I go, I'm up here with it. So if I'm complaining about something, you know, the president or how, why is my family still into him?

You know, whatever. And I'm like, oh, this happened again. I go, I'm not really connected to that, but there was a time when I would take it, I think of when I used to live in New York, which was 98 to 2002, I would take on the entire city's everything. So if it was a spring day, happy. If the subway was late, I was a buoy in the water, not an anchor, I would say. And now it's changed. I'm very, I'm at my level, no matter what's going on around me.

So a lot of things that bother me in the brain, they don't get into my soul. So but I'm not acting, peace and love, but I really do feel pretty even keeled inside most of the time to the point where I actually, you know, feel dumb sometimes. You know, I think that they say that. But I know it's, I know meditation isn't spirituality, but. No, well, it depends how you define spirituality. Yeah, well, I guess some people, if I say that, would think like,

oh, you're a religion or whatever, but I, you know, like there's a juice place, three doors down from where I'm staying, and I've been staying here for five weeks for a job. Here in New York City. Here in New York City. And I've been staying in Williamsburg for for a job. Here in New York City. Here in New York City. And I've been staying in Williamsburg for a job and someone said, oh, you live near blah, blah, juice.

And I went to some juice place. I go in every day. I just never looked at the name of it. And it's things like that where I'm just not. And you would think, I don't know. I guess it's the opposite of mine, folks. I'm not noticing. But I just sort of, I don't know.

I'm just sort of in a cloud, if that makes sense. No, that's not, I don't know, I can't explain it. But I feel more simple, that's what I'm saying. I like that. And dumber, but I mean that in a good way. Right, so not so caught up in and riled up by details or emotions that aren't particularly useful. I think so. But it was also just, I feel sort of, I'm just in my head, but in a totally different way.

Do you think this is because of the meditation or maturation or multi-factorial? No, I think it might be the meditation. I remember my grandmother, she's dead now, but she always seemed, we'd always kind of make fun of her, like, oh, she's dumb. And she was really religious, like, really Catholic, but she was the only Catholic who walked the walk of Catholicism, like, feed the poor, like that kind of, I don't think she would be outside of an abortion clinic,

that kind of thing. And she always seemed out of it. And then when she died, there was something that my sister and I were talking about. We're like, I think she was just really spiritual. I don't think she was dumb. It just something she was caught up in a lot. And so I think that that's kind of what I mean is,

I'm not caught up in a lot, although it would seem to people who know me like I am because I sort of always know maybe what's going on politically or I'm noticing things. But in terms of, there'll be people who say things like, oh, I don't like to do that. That's so clicky. Or that person hates me or this. And I'm like, what?

I've never think about what people are thinking of me. That's what I mean. I never think about what people are thinking of me. I don't care. Someone hates me. I don't assume someone hates me. That's what I mean. I never think about what people are thinking of me. I don't care if someone hates me. I don't assume someone hates me. I walk into everything just neutral. I'm neutral.

Do you think, where do you think the mental real estate has shifted to? This, for lack of a better term, stupidity that you're talking about. Do you think that maybe you're spending more time, this is gonna sound a little cheesy, but I'm gonna go for it anyway, because I don't have any other cooler way to say it.

Just kind of enjoying being alive. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I'm not like dancing for joy, but. No, no, no, no, I'm just appreciative. There's a difference between happiness and excitement. Yeah. So we human beings, he spent a lot of time, because we evolved for survival and to spread our genes, looking for hits of pleasure and excitement. So we're really trained to look for a piece of . but different. It's more sort of in the realm of contentment, peace of mind, and of just enjoying,

being alive, not jumping for joy, just the actual simple fact, the raw fact of existence. And I wonder if, am I talking about, what am I talking about now, does that come close to describing where you find yourself? I think that makes sense because what you were saying, the hits of joy, I think that makes sense because what you were saying the hits of joy, I think whether even if someone isn't a drug or adect or Alcoholic everyone isn't at it like everyone's mind like you said is seeking hits of pleasure People with their phones people. Oh, let's go out tonight and and have a few drinks after work And you feel good and then the next day you feel the same the way you felt before you went out for the drinks And so I yes, I have less I don't get hits of pleasure anymore. Nothing works, if that makes sense.

And so, and I, that's a good thing for me because I don't use food or a coffee or a drink or anything to change my state. It's just, adds to it if it's, I don't know, whatever. But so yeah, so it's like, I'm just sort of like you said content. And it feels a lot better because I don't, in other words, if I had a bad day at work and a bunch of people said, let's blow off steam and get drinks, I can do that and that's totally fine. But I'm not going to necessarily feel better because I'm doing that, and that's great, because there's a lot less expectation about anything that's supposed to make me feel better.

And I'm not chasing, like you said, feeling better. I'm just chasing, I guess, not feeling worse. And I'm not chasing. I'm not chasing. I'm just trying to not worry and be calm. I mean, that's really what it is. It's just I would like to not worry about things. I would like that too. Yeah. So I think that's what it is. There's a lot of my time. We spent worrying and then you chase the pleasure because

you feel like you deserve it because you've been worrying so much. I don't feel I don't have that. I deserve. Let's go do X or I need relief. Let's go do X. I don't or I might have that instinct, but it kind of just goes away. It dissipates. You said three years ago you really started getting serious, more serious about meditation. What was going on that what what provoked you to do that? I think I was getting like I used to have like depression and anxiety. I think it will always be a thing for me, but depression comes and goes, and sometimes it looks like anger.

So I think my, God, it was probably more than three years ago. I was probably like five years ago. My anger was just getting, like I said before, I can be ranting and raving about the government, but it's coming from my head. My heart's not there. Everything was in my body and my DNA.

It was just angry. And I felt it was too, I was really overwhelmed. I was very busy. I was touring as a comedian. I was writing on a television show. I was acting on a television show. I was writing my own show. I was working 24-7.

And I just had no time to process feelings. And it's sometimes my, I wouldn't choose to live that way. I'm not a workaholic. It was just everything happened at once. Everything was tied together and you couldn't say no. So I thought, well, if my life is going to look like this, where it's either nothing's going on or everything's going on, I have to be stable.

And I thought, well, maybe that meditation stuff I used to do. Let me do that again. And I started doing it just as a way to feel like I had any, not control, but you know, it's almost like the same as getting up 10 minutes earlier and checking your email so that you don't feel the first thing you did that day was get on a subway, get in a car, go see your boss, like you feel like your own person.

So it was giving me that kind of feeling. It was just sort of, you work in such a crazy. So it was giving me that kind of feeling. It's just sort of you working such a crazy industry where this boomer bust all the time. Yeah. You're your livelihood and your self esteem often depends on what some executive thinks of you and it's really tough. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. So I had to get to that place where I don't nothing can affect me in that way. So can you walk me through just kind of your, what are, what are the various things on your plate from a career perspective now? So right now, I've written a couple books, then those are, that's done for right now, but

I always am- Give us the names. Oh, I can barely take care of myself, and the other one's called, I know what I'm doing and other lies I tell myself. And when did they come out? I can barely came out 2013, and the other one came out last year. Okay. And then paperback just came out.

But this is a promotion friendly zone, which is all going to make you promote everything. Oh, okay, good. But and so I just and I did two Netflix specials and I just finished those. Yes, in fact, I want to talk about one. Oh, okay. So I'm in this sort of like, okay, well, I don't have enough material for a new special. I don't have enough material for new books. So, I'm in that wonderful blue sky zone.

So that's why I took, I'm writing on a TV show right now. I don't think I can see what it is, because I don't know if it's announced, it's picked up, but I'm writing on a show. And then I'm going on tour in the fall. But you have enough material to go on tour, or are you going to tour on the stuff you said during the Netflix? It's called new material tour. So I will have enough to tour with, but

it's not enough perfected to put it on Netflix. So touring is a little more forgiving than putting it on TV if that makes sense. Yes. I do a lot of improvising anyway on stage. And I have, I'm really into fashion and I have a necklace line that's coming out at the end of the summer. So I'm just sort of doing a bunch of different things and then it's always going to be stand up as my main thing that I do, but I can do a lot of different things. So if an acting job comes up, I'll do it. If a writing job comes up, I'll do it. So it's that same thing I was talking about.

I can't really commit to one thing because I love it, all of it. And all of it seems to come at the perfect time. So I just sort of, you know, just say, yeah, sure. Okay, going over here. But that's, I never know. I never know. But I'm getting to that point where I never know what job it's going to be, but I always know.

Like I think the last eight years, it finally happened where I always know it's going to be a job and entertainment. And I do have the option of saying, no to things, and I get offered cool stuff. So I've kind of hit that plateau, but that can go away at any time, at any time. So this is where meditation, I would imagine, would be really useful, because it does put you,

I mean, the goal of it, as I understand, or one of the goals of it, is to put you in touch with impermanence and how we are not in control and you work in a mystery with that is in your face all the time. It's funny. Maybe I'm in denial or it's my way of coping with that. I'm in that industry, but that doesn't bother me as much as dying. Like when I- It's the same. That's just a bigger version of the same person. Yeah, so why would I worry about the small version when the big version is really the fair point?

So I do it to control my fear of dying. And then it probably ends up helping the impermanence of the industry, but there's something about it where I don't mind the impermanence of the industry because I've been at the bottom before I can handle it. If it happened again. Hey, I'm Aresha and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wundery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true

and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Ru goes out searching for love and acceptance. But the road to success is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Ru off course.

In our series RuPaul Born Naked, we'll show you how RuPaul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. What when were you at the bottom? When I started. I'm like and in the middle there were times when I was like I know I'm good at this but I just can't get anyone to see when I'm doing doing. So you had a few gigs and then everything bottomed out. Yep, and that happened for about 10 years.

Whoa, yeah. 10 years. Oh yeah. How did you keep it together? I didn't. A lot of chasing pleasure, a lot of anger, a lot of weight gain, weight loss, such as everything was up and down.

Oh, I'll get married. Maybe that'll help. Oh, I got divorced. Maybe that'll help. It was just a lot of searching and a lot of, um, and then in, you know, meditation here and there and then, oh, that doesn't work because I used to be someone that thought, oh, you do meditation. Dot, dot, dot for the end goal up.

There was that. Why meditated today? So why didn't everything go? Well, oh, I meditated and I'm in touch with myself and I'm still having, you know, I didn't look at it quite the right way. Right, you looked at it as more like magic. As magic, right? The way that someone who doesn't understand prayer would do, you know, oh, well, I asked

for this and I didn't get it. And instead of thinking well, it's about, well, like you said, you know, getting in touch with, it actually helps me creatively. It gets in touch with because so much has thrown at me. Sometimes I forget what I want. And so getting quiet every day keeps me in touch with what I want. And what I want always changes. I don't, sometimes I'll start a project, and it takes a while, you know, you're telling a manager, I want to pitch a television show about this. And that, okay, great, then you work on it, then you finally get the meetings, then you pitch it, and it's eight eight months later and by the time I'm in

the room pitching I don't want to do it anymore so I'm always sort of changing and if I listen to myself the ideas will come what do you do then at that point pull the pitch now I just go through it I just kind of go through it and if it ends up happening ago I was meant to be if it doesn't like thank god has it ever happened that you got a green light on something that you actually had decided at some point that you didn't want to do? Nope, it always worked out how it was supposed to.

So you mentioned before you did that. Which is another way of saying no one's green light anything. Well, you've gotten some Netflix. Oh, yeah, that's true. Oh, yeah, those are the only ones that I wanted to happen. And they did. So you've at times thought you might want to create and write your own TV show.

Yeah, and so I've sold a few scripts, and then I've been like, I don't want to tell that story anymore, and then they don't get picked up. And I'm like, oh, thank God. What's your dream job? Would it be that? No, just being a stand-up. Just being a stand-up. But for-

I don't mean just being a stand-up, that's a huge deal. Being a stand-up that, like, Joan Rivers used to say, be an industry. I want to be that. I want to be thought of when you think of people that are good at stand up. And I want giant audiences. So I tore a lot, but I would like to tore less and have more people. So instead of 500, 700 people in the crowd, I want 5,000. But when you say be an industry, first of all, I hope that happens. That sounds amazing.

When you say be an industry, but also what it would also mean, and you're doing this already, that people go see you for stand up, but then they also buy your books and check out your specials and your podcast and it's a kind of a, you're a one woman industry. That's what I would kind of want to just more of that. Like I'd want to write more books. I'd want to, I'm really into things and fashion and clothing. I would love to, I seriously want to be in my 50s with my own line of things on QVC.

I'm very, but it's not from a shallow place. I'm very into my audience. I'm very into like get dressed up for yourself because I started to notice when you're a writer, you just wear crappy clothes to work. And then I was on the road every weekend. So I never had a night out. And then I started dressing up on stage,

not necessarily in a fancy outfit, but just dressing the way I would if I went out, like a fun outfit, because that's my night out. And so then it started to happen with women in the audience. They would come and they would dress for me. And then on my Instagram, it's like, where did you get that? And so there's this sense of taking care of yourself through the way you look.

And I mean that in a positive way, like not that you have to be a track, ever look a certain way, but look be you and express it through clothing. And so that's really important to me. So there's little tiny messages in my work that if I could blow those out into something, that would be really cool to me. If someone, I think I'd rather, I've acted and I find it very boring, there's a lot more waiting. So if I was a good enough actor, I'd love to do a play, but I'm not really quite that good. I haven't seen you

act. What have you, I can be, I? I can be me is what I can do. I was on a TV show playing myself. It was sort of like a Larry's. It was called After Lately. It was about the staff on Chelsea Lately in this show I used to write on. And so it was like a few seasons, and it was like a sitcom, but it was scripted, but I was playing myself.

And I've done like, there's a movie coming out in the fall called Home Again with Reese Witherspoon. I played a friend of hers. I mean, just a few quick scenes. I have a feeling they'll cut me out of it. There's just something about when I'm not being me that it just, I think it reads weird. It's good to know that. Yeah.

Yeah. I want to know what you're good at and just keep hammering away at that. Yeah. If someone wanted to, I don't, this doesn't happen. So that's why I'm saying it. If someone to hand me a show to act on, I think that would be fun, but to the truth about it, there's so much sitting around waiting it, it's really boring. I like live stuff.

And so every year I pitch a show, you know, like, oh, hey, what about this idea? There's some that I would just say, buy, go to someone else, run it. I'll collect the check. So I'm always going to do that because I think if you don't do that, your agents drop you. Like there's always that, like you're playing the lottery while you're doing what you really love and I call all that stuff the lottery. So yeah, what I really wanna do is just be a live performer and travel the world doing it.

Which I do, but I want just more audience, more money. I just basically just wanna be rich, is what? No judgment here. Exactly. So, we mentioned the Netflix specials. One of them, you open up with a whole bit about meditation. Yeah. Now, I don't want to make you redo the bit. I mean, you just kind of give us the basic

conceit of it. Yeah. Well, it's funny too, because, well, I mean, it's funny, but I start by saying, I meditate, which means I do not meditate. And I say that to... By the way, I expected then when you came in, I haven't seen that, that you wouldn't be a meditator, but you are a meditator. Yeah, I figured...

You're not being totally honest in this bit. No, and you can't be, because there's nothing funny about, hey guys, could everyone be quiet for a minute? I meditate. No, it's so funny. I just center myself. So I picked a moment as a meditator of what it's like on the days that you skip it.

And yet you still see yourself as one. Or when you first start doing it, you think you need all the stuff. So I've got the candle and the chair. And the truth is, I never sit in that chair and do it. I do it anywhere else. And so, but I didn't want to then just say, oh, but I really do meditate because then they're out of the bit. They're not relating. And then so I do this whole bit about this one day when I meditated and it felt great and my joke is I could handle anything if I didn't have to leave the house. Like you just feel so good. But once you get out there in the world, that's what I mean.

The accumulation, the build up, building your bank of doing it all the time, I think randomly helps you when you least expect it. Absolutely. Long line at the post office, you're the only one who doesn't care. That kind of thing. It's like a physical exercise. Yeah. For the same reason, you never know when you're going to have to pick something up.

But you never know. Or get chased by a robber. Exactly. But when you meditate, it doesn't mean that day half hour later, you won't get agitated and react. Absolutely. Yeah. So I go into a whole thing about, I was feeling good.

This guy was beeping at me. I accidentally stopped as a light was going green to yellow. I didn't go through the light. And he got really mad. And then we kept running into each other in Studio City, California. People know it's very like suburban part of LA. And so it's just stoplight after stoplight.

And we just kept parking next to each other at the light. And he called me a dumbass. And then the bit is that I stand up in my car. And that part is true. It was sort of, I stood up in my car and threw the sunroof and just went off on him, swearing and he drove off and said, you're crazy. And I scream, I'm not crazy, I'm meditated today, mother, effor. And so, and then the joke is, oh my god, I'm meditated today, what if I hadn't? Like, how much more angry would I've been?

I didn't quite, it's sort of a combination of two stories. I did yell at him through the window, but the standing up and going through the sunroof, I did that once when I was having road rage and I couldn't see what was going on ahead of me, and I hate when giant escalades when people just drive cars that big for no reason. I stood up to see what was going on

because I was so angry, but I wasn't yelling at anyone. So I just combined those two things. Again. Artistic license. A liar. But yeah, but I was so enraged I was shaking just shaking when I stood up When I yelled at the sky and I was on a day when you had met it I had meditated a half hour before and I yelled and I lied to him

I try not to be a liar either that's important. Yeah, you told him I told him my mother had died And that's why I wasn't paying attention. She did not die. She's still alive and and that's why I wasn't paying attention. She did not die. She still live. And, uh, but then I have to go to a meeting. And I drive in and I'm totally normal. Like, hey, hey, hey, you know, and not because of meditation, but because that's what we do.

And the joke goes into another place, which is just about, does it ever scare you when you act one way and you don't let people see that and then you act another way in front of people, which is why I'm suspicious of anyone who acts like they're a guru all the time when they're just a 30 year old blonde woman from LA. I'm like, there's no way you're not screaming when you chip a nail. There's no way.

So yeah, so that that goes over well with people. I get a lot of comments from people that they've done the same thing. And then I always on social media write them, I actually do meditate all the time, you'll love it, and I give them, try to give them advice. It's useful, I think, because, I mean, this comes from, I obviously have a very specific perspective having written a book called 10% Happier.

I mean, I don't think meditation should be marketed as a silver bullet or a panacea. It is absolutely true that you're gonna lose your temper sometimes. I have a friend named Sam Harris, who is not, we're not related, but he's a good friend of mine and he's a meditator and he talks about the half life of anger. And that, when you meditate, the half life comes way down. And there's an enormous, incalculable difference

between the amount of damage you can do in an hour of anger and two minutes of anger. Yes. Two minutes of anger, you might say some something stupid to the dude next to you at the Stoplight and Studio of City, but you might not carry it into 15 other meetings through the course of the day.

It might dissipate. Yeah. Because you're not feeding it through a compulsive neurotic thinking. I just saw that happen on the subway. On your part, or somebody else's part? Somebody else's,'s I was and I totally related to my gut We got on and the trains were all messed up and it decided to go express and he wanted to get off at

2030 had to go to work and it was getting off at 34th and he was just like Doos jump is on 23rd and he's and he seemed like otherwise a normal person You know, I don't think he was having an episode of Mental illness or anything not that there's anything wrong with that and it was just like Let him go like he was just we all probably understood and he was really angry and I thought well God, you can just walk the nine blocks. I mean, it's not gonna be that far But he was just I was think of people as a little kid like no that far, but he was just, I always think of people as a little kid like, no, it's not working out.

And so he still was mad. Once stopped at 34th, I thought he would be okay, but he was mad. The doors weren't opening fast enough and I summed his walk-off still angry. So I don't know. He was late. He was late for sure, but there's nothing worse when you're late than to be angry on top of it. Because when you come into work that way, you look unstable.

Yeah. And no one believes that you were late for any good, yeah. So it's like, if that happened, that was sort of like my, my story. I don't know how long he was mad after that, but, but my anger ended rather quickly in that car situation. But, but yeah, I get judgmental. I get scared that it happened at all. I'm not as supposed to be different.

No, no, no. No, you shouldn't. This is another thing. Hopefully I can disabuse you. Yeah. You're not going to be perfect. I mean, that's the beauty of the bit. It's like you're, from my standpoint,

as a meditation evangelist, it's great to tell people, you can't uproot millennia of evolution in a couple years of daily meditation. Maybe it's possible if you live in a cave or maybe it's possible through 50 years of dog aid, retreat oriented meditation to like really unwind a lot of this conditioning. But on our level as civilians and people who are active in the world, it's just not going to happen that way. And I think as a comedian, it's good.

I mean, perfection is not what my audience wants. No, it's not funny. They like to go relate to something. Absolutely. So there's no, it's funny. I know this is sort of off to the side, but when I was a kid, you're like, no. I grew up Catholic, but not Catholic school,

and people weren't shoving it down my throat, which is church once a week, and take what you want, and no one really bothered me about it. But I started to, and I'm not Catholic now but I was having serious doubts about the more magical I'm coming back from the dead I'm this and that and I went and talked to a priest and I said it might still you know I like the teachings of Jesus I'm into the feed the poor but I don't think he rose from the dead I don't think any of this. And he goes, and I go, it's like a sonata, good Catholic.

And he said, you're perfect Catholic. He goes, you're supposed to have doubts. You're, you're practicing belief. And every, he goes, I have doubts, but I do this and that. And I get what I can out of it. And I was like, it blew my mind. So not talking about Catholicism, I carry that into my life. Of course, I'm supposed to have doubts.

It just means keep going, I guess that's different because I don't do Catholicism anymore, but in that sense, if it's okay to have doubts, but no one's asking you to literally believe X, Y, and Z, like it's okay to doubt yourself and then do it anyway. I think it's great what you're saying is it's a practice. Yeah. And in just like anything you practice, exercise or learning comedy or learning a musical instrument,

it's going to be failures and setbacks, huge wins, interesting moments of insight, moments of doubt, and it's just that you've decided, oh, this is a bit hack me, to walk a path. I think people don't want to do it right and be perfect. I know, and that's a big problem. I have that problem too. I thought when I first learned to meditate, I thought I was going to win at it. I didn't pay, I missed huge chunks of the basic instructions,

all the stuff about, you know, when you get lost and distracted, give yourself a break, that's the key moment. I ignored all that because I was just like, I'm not going to get lost and distracted. I'm not gonna get lost in this track, then I'm gonna grit my way through this. And of course, that didn't work out so well for me. And I actually have to hear that over and over again because I'm so type A and achievement oriented

that this is a counterintuitive move for me. What's funny, I get very judgmental too. I did a sound bath, have you ever done those? Yeah, it's one of those things that even though I've never really done, I just make fun of reflexively so I don't, um, well you'll love this. I went to one and it's supposed to be, you know, they play those singing bowls, you know, for anyone listening. It's a beautiful sounds that you're listening to. It's supposed to vibrate internally and really help you physically. Yeah. I'm, I, I haven't seen no evidence that that's true, true, but there may be evidence that I just haven't looked

at it because I'm lazy. There's, it's the, and I'm going to hear on Twitter from a million times. I know. I don't know how scientific it is, whatever, but there's, you can find it evidence. Okay, so I went just for to relax. And she said, if you think you're going to fall asleep, you know, it was a lay down thing I think you're gonna fall asleep and you want to experience this it you can do it sitting up Everyone laid down and six guys fell asleep and they were snoring so loud

They were snoring louder than the soundbath and I could not she said if you hear any sounds in the room someone coughs You know, you know how it is when you meditate my my dear Nambulence go by, you can't be like, what the hell? You have to let it be part of it, but I could not. I could not let, I was so angry in judgmental, like she said, if you, like you don't know you snore, like you selfish, I mean, I was going nuts. Not unjustified. But I'm being selfish because it has to go the way I wanted it. And so I was just, and so I sat up to give a message to the teacher.

This is all going on in my head. I'm giving her a message that I cannot sound bath properly because these guys are snoring. And I would open my eyes, look at her, look at them. And I would sigh, go, huh, just she didn't do anything. She let them snore. And then when I left, they said, how did she like it? I said, couldn't hear it, there's too much snoring.

And that, so that was like a recent example of how, I end up lost my mind, but that wasn't quite meditation. She just said, lay there. Yes, but you are a meditator. I know. And you still lost your mind. And so what, I happens all the time. But that's the other thing is like, perfectionism of me,

I expect, and then perfectionism of my environment. If everything doesn't go well. Yeah, I don't have a ton, but geez, that was like a great example of when I came up. I get going to take your side for it. Oh, by the way, it is annoying. Yeah. It is annoying. I got very like, it was just, it went to all kinds of places.

Like, I'm thinking a man spreading on the subways, feminism's coming up, I'm like, where are men gonna notice what they're doing? I was going crazy. But I think it was definitely something that was like, okay, well, now I know for next time. Don't go to sound better. No, I'm not, if I ever went, I would go to a solo one. That's how they get, yeah.

Oh, really? I know, they make it really annoying so that you've to sign up for the cause of the solo one. I didn't know that you could do solo, oh sure, I mean, I'll cost you a bit. So you brought up Catholicism in your family. So you grew up the town next to me. Yes, not crazy. You're a few years behind me in high school. I was in Nair du Well, no account. Just terrible, terrible

student. You were a good well behaved student, so we never met. Yeah, we never met. I took ballet and piano. My mom kept me busy after school. Yeah, my parents did not, and I had all sorts of shenanigans I got to. I wasn't a good student, but I was a busy person. So, what does your family think about the meditation thing, and the fact that you're not really doing catholicism anymore, although I'm not sure those two are in any way linked? Yeah. But what do they think of your habit?

They don't even care. My mom, she's high blood pressure and she took some yoga, but she's like the teacher was judging me unless she wasn't. And I, you know, she's 79 now, so I'm not like she needs to go to yoga, but I'm always telling you, you shouldn't meditate for the, I don't want to get into that. I think she thinks it's a religion, but she wouldn't mind doing it, but I think there's still something in her brain that's like, I'm gonna get in trouble with God.

So I say, you can Catholic meditate. You can, centering prayer. Yeah, and no, and so. What do you think the rosary is? Yeah, that's what I told her. And she's like, no, I don't know. It's a physical, it's a medical thing. I go, no, I know high blood pressure is real.

Take your pills, also meditate. Like, why not throw everything at it? But so I'm trying to get her to do it. She doesn't care that I do it. They did care when I, again, I thought I had to become a Buddhist and be religious. So, you know, my first couple of years in LA, I'm going to the Buddhist centers. I'm announced to everyone before even when in the door. I am a Buddhist centers. I'm announced to everyone before even went in the door. I am a Buddhist now. And my mom was like, God, you've

baptized. God knows that you're a Catholic. And he's not happy that he sees what you're doing. She's not quite like that anymore. She's dropped a lot of that kind of superstition. And then I realized, I don't want to be a Buddhist either. I don't want any particular thing at all. So I didn't do that either. Where I've come to on the whole Buddhist thing, that was, and people who listen to this podcast probably tired of me hearing me say this, but it can certainly be practiced as a religion, but I don't do it that way. And I don't believe in anything I can't prove, and the Buddha specifically said, you know,

I'm going to talk about some metaphysical stuff like enlightenment and rebirth and karma, but you can take it or leave it. I think it is something to do, you know, it's just a set of mental exercises. So in many ways, you actually are a Buddhist because you're doing a lot of Buddhist meditation. And so, and that's the sense in which I consider myself a Buddhist. Well, and I think it's cognitive, yeah, it's very similar to like cognitive behavior therapy in a way. You're changing the way you do things or see things.

There is this thing called MBCT, Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therap. Oh, they actually combine the two. I think it goes really well and I'm a I pray and I don't Believe in anything, but I don't not believe in anything I don't pray because I think something's watching me and going to make something happen It is a way for me to get out of myself And I like to say things out loud. This is what I want That's the only idea I have. I'm sure you know Anything I've ever wanted in life has come as a complete surprise and life has told me this is what would be good for you right now.

It's never what I think. So if I'm stuck and I'm like, no, if I don't have this, I won't be happy. I pray about it. I get on my knees and I say, this is my great idea. I'm giving it to you, whoever, universe, whatever. Work with that and come back to me with what I should be doing. I'll do it, do what you tell me to do. Make me want what's right for me.

And that really helps me too. And then I meditate because I feel like maybe I'll get not answers like someone's talking to me, but it just helps me clear out. You know, we wake up for me. I wake up. My mind's already going. I wake up with desires and disappointments and obsessions. And so that just helps clear it for the day,

that kind of thing. Or like before I perform, if I think of it as, I'm a vessel for the talent that was given to me and that's subjective, I'm like, hey, I'm so talented, I'm always thinking of Twitter when I'm talking. And so, that's somebody's gonna hop on. Yeah, but it just let me, because it takes, it's still me, I'm so talented, I'm always thinking of Twitter when I'm talking. That's somebody's gonna hop on you. Yeah, but it just let me, because it takes, it's still me, I wrote these things, but it

takes the pressure off of, and I think meditation does this too. It's like, I'm not in control, but in the most lovely of ways. I still get to be a body and a mind on earth, but I don't have to, like, make anything happen. I don't have to make the wind blow. I don't have to make the wind blow. I don't have to make myself breathe. That's the most magical thing is you breathe all day and you're not making yourself do it. So whatever that is, that will inform, you know, what I do next. And I get to have an opinion of what I like and what I don't. That's not what I mean. But anyway, so all that stuff,

I've just stopped trying to decide what I think anything is because it doesn't even matter what I think. It's not my business if there's a God who cares. I couldn't care less. I like all this. Yeah. Let me ask you one last question. Just on the, I keep writing myself notes once in a while because you say something that I want to follow up on.

The, on, on the comedy tip, I don't think he'll mind if I quote him. I, I quoted him but not by name in my book, but I'm going to quote him by name now, because you may know him. There's a comedy writer out in LA, Gene Stupinski. He used to write for the office. Oh, I've never met him. No. So he and I were on some vacation, like, vacation years ago, and he saw me reading a book

about Buddhism, and he said, I couldn't do that because I couldn't meditate and get into Buddhism because I need to be judgmental in order to be a comedian. I need to be able to, you know, to, to, you know, pick out people's flaws and things like that. Do you find that that, in any way being a meditator, being happier, calmer, has neutered your art. No, made it better. When I'm sad, I can't perform. If something's hard going on in my life, I'm not one of those people who channels it through comedy. I used to, and you used to see someone

who is unhappy on stage. So if we watch your old performances, you'd be working out some demons there. Yeah, I have two albums. Luckily you can't see me, but you can hear me and it's not funny. It might be funny. Is it not funny?

I don't think it's funny. I sound pretty angry and it's not, I'm not joking. That's maybe why it's not funny to me because I know it's real. Now I can get worked up and I'm acting in my comedy. So I feel like you have to process what you've been through and then report on it later

and recall how it felt but acted. But I feel like, no, I don't, because you can still be judgmental and be a meditator because I'm never going to stop being judgmental and then you let it pass. Right. That was my argument, which is there's a great quote from this teacher who you may have heard of Ram Das, who is like, you don't uproot your neuroses, but you become a connoisseur of them.

So in some ways, you're closer to all of your craziness, but you're not owned by it as much. And that allows you to actually get in there and write about it, tell jokes about it, and not be so wrapped up in it that your audience is going to get the sense of, wow, this is funny, but this person maybe is screwed up. Elizabeth Gilbert says something in her book should a book big magic creativity i'm gonna quote it wrong but she was like if you think that like getting on medication or going to their fist is gonna

not make you funny she's like your demons uh... i can't quote it but she was your demons were doing a good job of running your you look at everybody but i love ron my favorite rom does quote is uh... we're all just walking each other home. I'll just start crying if I think of that. Wow. Isn't that a good one?

I never heard that before. I like it. Yeah. There's a little vintage clothing store next to where I live, and they have that written on a chalkboard outside for some reason. And that's my favorite little quote. And I just- It's a really cool quote.

It's a good way to just when you look at your fellow person and you judge them and you go, oh, we're all going to die. And we're all just trying to help each other get through it, whether you know it or not. Just being a presence on the subway while someone else is there, let's them look at you and go, there's another human. I don't know. There's just something about like just being alive that you're always helping others, even just by walking around as long as you're not hurting them.

But we, so easy to forget it. Well, I'm perfect. I think about all the time. Oh, do you ever have Jerry Seinfeld on here? I want to. He's the biggest meditator of all. Yes, I want to. And he's the funniest person.

Yes, definitely. Your friend is wrong. If you know him. I don't. I mean, I really don't. And I know he doesn't like to do interviews, so. Yeah, I think that's, well, right, even when he's got something to promote, we were working on him.

Louis CK, also a meditator, I would love to have him. He meditates? Yeah. I think that's well right even when he's got something to promote we were working on him Louis CK also a meditator I would love to have him. He meditates. Yeah. I Know I could ask him for you. Yeah, please do. Who have we had on from the community? John Mulaney. Oh, he's great I don't know he meditated. Yes. Yes. He is a great example then because he's an angry dude. I Don't mean in real life, but I've heard him on Mark Maron's podcast. He said he was. Yeah, and he holds it in very well Well, I think he had a moment of real anger after his show didn't go so well Oh, of course. Yeah, and he sort of Exercise a lot of those demons right here in that chair and you're sitting We he happens to be a friend, but comedians are great interviewees as you have oh well

Thank you. I'm so glad I know someone tweeted at us and I was like, oh, God, they're gonna make him, I feel like he has to do this. No, no, no, as soon as I saw it, I was delighted. Oh, good, okay. So, one more time, the promotions front. People wanna learn more about you, where they go, what can they do?

Well, this is gonna be my website, genkirkman.com, one in and gen everybody. And I have a new book called, I know what I'm doing, and otherwise I tell myself, just came out and paper back, so they can get that at all there. Amazon Indiebound.org where everything want to go. And yeah I'm on Netflix. My specials call them, oh just keep living.

I've learned actually that if you just type in Jen Kirkman on Netflix you will get both. Oh really? Oh good okay. I've never tried it because I don't want to watch it but you don't? No I went some done I'm done. I can't watch it. Really? I had to watch it to edit it. So I'm enough already I saw it five times. So you don't want to dial it up and just send your spare time? Yeah, and by the way when I say edit, I mean we taped two different performances and I had to watch it to pick which performance I liked we didn't like Manipulate anything we didn't add a laugh track. I mean that's what I mean by editing. Okay, I didn't go there. Again, I'm responding to Twitter.

Yeah. Yeah. You're a delight. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. This is really cool. Thanks. Okay, there's another edition of the 10% happier podcast.

If you liked it, please make sure to subscribe, rate us, and if you want to suggest topics we should cover or guess we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B Harris. I also want to thank Hardly the people who produced this podcast and really do pretty much all the work Lauren F. Ron Josh Cohan Sarah Amos Andrew Calp Steve Jones and the head of ABC News Digital Dan Silver. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey hey prime members you can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.

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