Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 99: When It Comes to Habits, There Are Four Types of People. Which Are You? | Gretchen Rubin

Episode Date: December 26, 2022

The New Year is approaching and this is a time when many of us think about making and breaking new habits. So today we’re bringing on one of the smartest people when it comes to habits, best-selling author and speaker Gretchen Rubin. Gretchen’s contention is that before you embark on a self-improvement project, it’s crucial to have some self-awareness about what kind of person you are. She has devised a framework called the Four Tendencies, which helps you identify your personality type in order to gain powerful insights into how you make or break habits. Rubin is a lawyer by training and began her career clerking for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor. Gretchen then went on to write a series of books that examine small and doable ways to boost our happiness in everyday life. These include: The Happiness Project, which spent two years on the bestseller list and sold over 3.5 million copies worldwide, and Better Than Before. We initially conducted the interview you’re about to hear back in 2017, when Gretchen released a book called The Four Tendencies. In this episode we talk about:How and why Gretchen developed the Four Tendencies frameworkHow Gretchen’s framework can give each of us a recipe for successful habit changeBreaking down the Four Tendencies: Upholders, Questioners, Obligers, or RebelsHow these Four Tendencies are an overlapping Venn diagram What “obliger rebellion” is and how to spot it in your relationshipsThe value of forming an accountability groupAnd why Gretchen sometimes calls herself a happiness bully  Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/gretchen-rubin-99-rerunSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, New Year's is fast approaching and this is a time when many of us start thinking about making and breaking new habits. So today we're bringing on one of the smartest people I know when it comes to the subject of habits, Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen's contention is that before you embark upon some big self-improvement project, it is crucial to have some self-awareness about what kind of person you are in this regard.

She has devised a framework called the Four Tendencies. This is a methodology that helps you identify your personality type in order to gain some pretty powerful insights into how you make or break habits or more specifically how you respond to inner expectations of yourself, such as keeping a new years resolution or how you meet outer expectations from other people, such as meeting a work deadline. A little bit about Gretchen. She is a lawyer by training. She began her career, clerking for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Gretchen then went on to write a series of books that examine small, doable ways to boost

your happiness in everyday life. They include the Happiness Project, which spent two years on the bestseller list and sold more than 3.5 million copies around the world, which she then followed up with a book called Better Than Before, which is then followed up with a book called Better than Before, which is about behavior change and habit formation. And then after that, she wrote a book called The Four Tendencies, which is the subject of this interview you're about to hear. I should say we initially conducted this interview back in 2017 when the four tendencies first came out. We were a skeleton crew back then, so the interview is a little less smoothed out

than you might be used to current listeners. That being said, it's a goldmine. And here's a little bit of a preview of the things we talked about in this conversation, which included how and why Gretchen developed the four tendencies framework. How Gretchen's framework can give each of us a recipe for a successful habit change.

She breaks down the four tendencies, which include upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. We talk about how these four tendencies are at times an overlapping Venn diagram. What a bliger rebellion is and how to spot it in your relationships, the value of forming an accountability group and why Gretchen sometimes calls herself a happiness bully.

Okay, we'll get started with Gretchen Ruben right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do?

What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical

and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonicle and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay, on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad,

where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer, on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast. So the four tendencies, the new book, give me the load. I actually have to say, because I've been so tied up in writing my next book, I've read only parts of this new book. I really like it. And I really like, it's something that the writing in this one

that I just really enjoy, I've always enjoyed your writing. But this one, there's a real confidence, there's a real light spirit to it, even though you're talking about big ideas. Oh, well, that's nice to hear, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm really imagine these four tendencies out in the world, not just sort of, you know, I started my career as a lawyer and I always have to be aware of when that lawyerly training comes

creeping back into my writing. I have to fight it off. Well, I think you did so successfully on this one, that just by way of background, this emerged from your last book better than before, which was about habit formation. Am I saying that correctly, all of that? Yeah, absolutely right. So in better than before, I identified the 21 strategies that we can use to make or break our habits. And as I was identifying the 21 strategies,

I was very struck by certain patterns that I saw, which was like, some strategies seem to work really well for some people, but then really didn't work for other people. Well, why or why not? Or why were certain people facing certain kinds of frustrations? Like, there was a big group of people who would say something like, well, I can always make time for other people, but I can't make time for myself, and that's why I can't keep my habit. And I was like, that's interesting, because I don't feel that problem. That's not a frustration that I face. So, what do all these people have in common? Or just hearing how people approached it,

I really started to sense these big patterns and that's what turned into the four tendencies. But once my book better than before came out, it was day-loved with people who wanted to know really like sophisticated advanced questions about the four tendencies. So I'm a doctor, I wanna use it with my patients or I'm trying to use it in couples counseling or.

Wow. Yeah, and asking me for more information. And so I really just decided I needed to think it through all the different aspects of the tendencies and write a whole book that would be sort of the guide to how to think about them. We're gonna walk through the tendencies systematically, but is your vision that this will be something that would be adopted in a kind of a grand scale in doctor's offices, et cetera, et cetera?

Well, that's my, you know, that's my hope, of course. Because I really do feel like one of the things that's striking about the Four Tennis Deez is, once I say this framework, it's not subtle. It's really obvious. You will see it around you everywhere. You will see it in yourself and other people. And it really does offer you clues about how to work with other people more effectively.

And so, like, there's starting to be research done in the healthcare field to try to validate this or to see how it works in practice. The different people are using it in different ways to see if they can change the way they set up certain programs in order to increase people's adherence to medication or how much they'll stick to a program. And so, yeah, I mean, if nothing but to help people take their medication, that would save billions of dollars and thousands of lives.

So, I hope that people do find it useful. You make a kind of a, and I apologize if I'm misremembering that, this, but because it was a bit a few weeks since I looked at your book when I was out at the beach. I'm making it happen. You make a kind of audacious claim that you feel like almost that you stumbled upon a law of nature. It feels that way.

It does feel that way. Or maybe it's a muggle sorting hat. I don't know, you know, divide people into four houses. But it really feels like when I finally came up, when I saw the pattern and how it fits together, it has sort of the elegance of nature. Everything is included. Nothing's left out. Nothing's left hanging.

It accounts for a lot. It's a very narrow framework, but it seems to really be durable. You know, the more I, because I think about it constantly, like, well, what about this? What about that? And somebody can argue this. And it feels like it's holding up to that. That's exciting. It is that. That's exciting. It is exciting.

It is exciting. So let's walk through it, because I think this is the good stuff that people are going to hear. What are you? Yeah, we want to know where do you fit in the fantasy. So you usually start with a blind, no, no, a holder, because you are an upholder.

I am an upholder. Yes, okay. So the four tendencies are a holder, questioner, a bliger, and rebel. And it has to do with how you respond to expectations, which sounds very drive it ends up being very, very juicy to think about. So we all face outer expectations like a work deadline or requests from a friend. And then we all face inner expectations, which is our own desire to start meditating, our own desire to keep an New Year's resolution.

So, a poll deres readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. Then questioners, questioners, question all expectations, they'll do something if it meets their inner standards. So, they meet inner expectations.

If something feel like something's arbitrary or unjustified or irrational, they won't do it. They will reject it. So if something meets their standard, they will meet that expectation. If they reject it as unjustified, they won't. Then a blighters. A blighters readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So I got my glimpse into this when a friend said to me, because I am kind of this happiness

bully that's always asking people how they could be happier. My friend was like, well, I know I would be happier if I went running. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? Well, why not? I would say, now having figured this out, she's an obliter when she had a team in a coach waiting for her expecting her. She had no trouble showing up.

When she's just trying to go on her own, she struggles. And then finally, Rebels. Rebels resist all expectation, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. And if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. Typically, they don't even want to tell themselves what to do.

Like, typically, they wouldn't sign up for a 10 a.m. Woodworking class, because they're like, I don't know what I'm gonna want to do on Saturday, I don't know what I'm gonna want to do in the morning, I don't want to, like, why would I want to clog up my calendar? You know, I just want to feel free and do what I feel like doing. And rebels and we'll get into this day off

and get frustrated at themselves. Well, everybody gets frustrated. A lot of us get frustrated with ourselves in different ways. I think it's a particular issue for rebels because a lot of things that work for the other tendencies don't work for rebels. So if you know you're a rebel, you know someone else is a rebel, it's kind of points you in a direction

that might be very different from something that you would try with somebody from the other tendencies. Their perspective is quite different. So let's go through these from the beginning. Uppholder. What are the characteristics of an upholder? How does habit formation or breaking bad habits working in your life? Is it all easy for you if you're an upholder? It's funny, it is easier. It is easier for me.

I remember Dan, you have been trying to lead me to the path of meditation for a long time. You're the one, one of the people that got me to really try it. And I said to you, I was meditating and I got nothing out of it. And it was actually hard for me to stop meditating because it's like, once I started to have it, I couldn't stop. And you were like, that's funny because that's not usually the problem. People don't usually find it easy to form the habit of meditation, but then not. You're literally the only person

I've ever heard this right. So I know one day we will try again, you and I. No, no, no, no. I with the only one bully in this room. Yes, I know. By the way, you're the lightest touch of anybody, which is probably why I was willing to try it again. I have a light touch, but I but I wanted to say in defense of you and you're bullying, actually, it's really fun. Okay. Actually, one of the things I want to do at the end of this is let you bully me on a brief score. Oh, good. Okay.

Well, I look forward to that. So, yeah, for a poll, it's easier to form habits. It's easier to meet expectations. And like, what the happiness project people would say to me, oh, how did you get yourself to do all that stuff that made you happier? And I said, well, I knew it would make me happier, so I just decided to do it. And I would say, like, but how did you get yourself to do it? And I was like, I don't really understand what your issue is. Now, I understand that I'm in a pullter. And by the

way, a pullter is a very small tendency. Rebel is the smallest tendency. A pullter is only slightly larger. These are very, these are extreme personality types. Pretty rare. The biggest one is a blighter. That's you either are a blighter, you have many blighters in your life, a lot of the blighters, and also lots of questioners. So most people are questioners or blighters. So one of the things I learned about an appolder is things do come more easily for me, like in habit formation, and they do for other people. A folder has to be sort of self-starters. They don't need a lot of supervision, they don't usually need a lot of accountability, but they can also seem judgmental because they don't understand a lot of supervision. They don't usually need a lot of accountability, but they can also seem judgmental,

because they don't understand why other people are struggling with things that are coming easy to them. They can seem rigid because they really want to stick to their... They want to meet out in interact expectations, and so they can sometimes like, my sister made fun of me because I was visiting her in Los Angeles and I stayed on East Coast time. So I just went to bed every night at 7.

She's like, you're kind of a kill to life. And I was like, well, yeah, but for me it made sense. And it made perfect sense. She did that thing. She thought that was ludicrous. But. I think it's ludicrous to just for the work. Okay, but I was like,

but why would I make myself six staying up late for three nights and just when I'm back on West Coast time? Did I have to go back to the East Coast. I know. I know. You know, I had all these, people have different perspectives.

It's not that one of us is right and one of us is wrong, but it's just like we have to review it. So that's very upholding. Anyway, there is sort of a, that's such a crazy story. I mean, I see the logic, I see the logic. I see the logic.

I see the logic. I see the logic. I see the logic. I see the logic. I see the logic. I see the logic. Okay. I want your listeners to scry you and say, are they on team Dan Elizabeth or team Gretchen? I'm sure. If you're just it was three nights. I'm sure I have lots of crazy listeners who will be on your team. I know, I mean, I get it. Your logic actually is solid, but it's still a bit of an unusual thing. Okay. Okay, let's see, this is the thing. To me, it seemed perfectly logical. I was just like, you're crazy. But yeah, okay.

So that's a folder. There you go with from a folder. Cause they do seem that's sort of like extreme like that to other people. And then, you know, then questioners. Hold on, hold on a second. Let me just stay on a folder for a second. Because I think I may be an upholder.

Do you think so? Maybe. Because I've been able to just based on my own inner expectations, do some crazy habit formation stuff. I meditate two hours a day. I did two years ago, I was gonna do that, and I do it. I exercise six days a week, and actually recently,

I was at a birthday party for a guy you may have heard of and his name Strauss Zelnick, he's a 60 year old guy. He's super successful and incredibly fit and and I was just really inspired by how fit he is and how happy he is and how great you know how close his friends were at age 60 and I just told myself, all right, I'm gonna up my game. I need to do more exercise. Not crazy amounts, but just like instead of just doing 30 minutes of cardio I'm gonna need to really get back to going to a spin class or running the Central Park Loop or You're working with my trainer in a harder way, and I've just done it. However, however, yeah I know and you and I have discussed this before right here on this show that I know I need to quit sugar And I've done it off and on and in fact, I'm a off sugar right now

But haven't been able to make that stick. So, I don't know. Food is a little tricky. I feel like you can't sort of always judge by food because there's a lot of things going on with eating habits that are complicated. Well, do you feel like when you're changing that habit, is it because you're like, I understand now why I would do that? I've been convinced by the reasoning of it

and why this is the efficient way to do it, or is it more like, this is just what I wanna do for myself. You know, and maybe that I'm a questioner in that sense, because for example, with sugar, as you know, I've quit many times about eight days ago, I texted my wife after a night where we had had a bunch of sugar and I was feeling awful. Yeah. And I said, when am I gonna admit that I'm poisoning myself? I texted my wife after a night where we had had a bunch of sugar and I was feeling awful.

And I said, when am I going to admit that I'm poisoning myself? If you said you just did, let's quit together. And actually, the fact that we're doing it together, I actually have some hope that this will be able to stick. And I always talk about you. I say that you, as Gretchen says, that you just decided one day, I'm a person who doesn't need sugar, you can make me a birthday cake, but I won't eat it.

And that has had such a powerful resonance for me. And I know that I'm so addictive to me. You said this thing about how when you stopped eating sugar, it ended this conversation that was so boring. Right, and I'm having that conversation all the time. Like, well, maybe I'll have it after dinner tonight. I wonder if I'm gonna feel like we're all in so boring. Yes. And I'm having that conversation all the time. Like, well, maybe I'll have it after dinner tonight. Yeah. I wonder if I can feel it.

Yeah, it's so boring. It's so boring. It's really tiring. Oh, and it's sort of the half self-control. Like, ugh. Yes. You know, or like my favorite thing. Some people can do moderation.

Oh, no, no. Yes, absolutely. And I talked about that in better than before. Some people can do moderation. But like my favorite example was I sat in a meeting for two and a half hours for the plate of cookies in the middle and I didn't eat it a cookie the whole time and then on my way out the door I ate three cookies

because it's like it finally just run, the clock had run out, you know, and the whole time it had just been draining myself control, you know. Now it's just like, oh, you can put a, this freshly baked telehouse cookies right next to me and I just want to eat them. So.

And I think where I'm at now with, well, if somebody put freshly baked cookies in front of me, I would, I would, I'd be feeling a lot of, because I have a pronounced addictive tendency, I'd be feeling a lot, but I think now I'm starting to see that if I ate them, I would be so miserable. Yes. And I, I just had to have my face shoved into the poop so many times, like a dog, you know, who poops on the rug and has to be taught over and over and over again. And I wonder whether maybe I'm now at the point where like, okay, I get it now. But see, this is a great example, even like taking your specific example out of it of like why knowing your tendency can be helpful to you if you're trying to make a change.

Because let's say you're trying to quit sugar. If you know that you're a questioner, I would say go deep into knowledge, read all the books, get the information, really get clarity on why this is what you want. This is the thing that's gonna work you. This is why it's justified. This is the research that's gonna back it up. This is why it's gonna be customized for you.

You're gonna tweak it so it's just right for you. This is, you really understand why you're doing something. If you're an obliger, I would say, go deep into outer accountability. That's what works for obligers. Think about, let's do it together. Think about your need to create a sugar-free environment for your son.

Think about, I need to set a good example for the people who work for me. Think about, I need to be healthy into my older years. And if I quit now, I know that as a 60, 70, 80-year-old, I'm going to have much better health. And so the people who rely on me are going to have me for the long term. There's a million ways to build an out-of-cannotability. That's what a blighters need.

Rebel, what do you want? What do you choose? You want to be free. What kind of person do you want to be? So then I would say, say things to yourself like, I'm not addicted to sugar. They can't fool me with their big marketing campaigns and their crinkly packages. They can't addict me with their chemicals and their bad sugar. I'm free.

I can do whatever I want and I choose to be a healthy, energetic person. These are different, like they're all right. These are all way approaches. But when you know your tendency, you can kind of go deep into the values of your tendency and you can sort of push the buttons that are going to be probably most likely to resonate with you. And if you're trying to help someone else, if I'm your tendency, and you can sort of push the buttons that are gonna be probably most likely to resonate with you. And if you're trying to help someone else, if I'm your doctor, and you're saying to me, doctor, I really wanna do this,

if I knew your tendency, then I could start talking to you in a way that would probably be the most likely. If you're a rebel, I shouldn't tell you to join an accountability group. If you're in a blighter, I shouldn't hand you a giant stack of studies. You know, and if you're in a polter, I should just feel like, hey, let's just sit down and talk about

why the time is right for you to do this. And you'd be like, okay. This is why I think I'm probably in a folder with shades of questioner and a blider in there, which is what I like about your tendencies, actually, because they start to have overlaps in the Venn diagram. Did you take the quiz? There is a quiz at happiercast.com slash quiz. You can take a quiz.

Say that you are early in. It at happier cast dot com slash quiz you can take a quiz say that you are only a happier cast dot com slash quiz I'm coming up on like a million people having taken this quiz and it's in the book to it's in the four tenancies um how do you feel about New Year's resolutions I think they're arbitrary and stupid okay that's questioner right there bing bing bing bing bing yeah Okay, that's questioner right there. Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing. That is that's a questioner answer. I think you're a questioner. Okay. I think you're a questioner who has like just the minute when you see that something makes sense for you, you're able to execute. That's very questioner.

Okay. All right. I'll buy that. Yeah. I buy that makes sense. Whenever somebody says the word arbitrary, that's like, you know, all the bells go off. Yeah. Okay. So is that the next bucket we're diving into? Yeah. Question. Okay. So the value of questioners is that questioners are very focused on reasons and justifications. So like, if you have a questioner in your life or at work or something,

they're the ones that are like, why are we doing this? Is this a big waste of time? Is there a better way to do this? Why are, you know, the fact that we've always done something a certain way or because you're telling me to do it isn't convincing. And so they really keep everybody on track to spend their time, their energy, their money most efficiently, because they're the ones

that are going to protest. On the other hand, questioners sometimes drain and overwhelm other people with their questions. They ask a lot of questions, and others may be like, we've talked about this so long, we don't need to talk about any more, you're a drag. Sometimes they can seem like insubordinate or not team players or like if you're a questioner, child questioning a teacher, you could seem disrespectful. If you're saying like, well, why should I memorize the multiplication tables?

I can just look on my phone or on a calculator and look it up, like this makes no sense. And the teacher's like, because I say so, because all fourth graders have to learn their multiplication tables. Well, that questioner child is like not convinced by that. They need a robust explanation. They can sometimes have analysis paralysis, which is when they want perfect information before they make a decision. And so they just stall out because they're getting more and more and more information. That can also drain them and drain the people around them. because they're getting more and more and more information. That can also drain them and drain the people around them.

I mean, I'm married to a questioner, so I'm very aware of the pros and cons of being around questioners, and they're great, because they're like, why would we do this? It doesn't make sense. So they save you a lot of time and effort, but they can, it can be tiring to be around somebody who's just, like, my husband will not do something

if he doesn't know why. And I'm just like, just do it because I tell you to. It's not do something if he doesn't know why. And like I'm just like just stupid because I tell you to. It's like no he needs to know why. So fair enough I've learned. But one of the good things about knowing the tendencies is like he's like this all the time. It's not about me and our relationship. He's like this with everybody and there's a lot of people who are just like him. So I don't have to feel I can feel like it's a drag but I don't have to take it personally. Because it's just his nature. Actually, there's something quite Buddhist in that, actually,

that we have, that to learn to take stuff about ourselves and others less personally. Yes. No, I think the foretime is these really helps with that. Because you're like, it's not a reflection on the way you think about me. It's just the way you approach the world. Right. And that's, that's fine. And a lot of times think about me. It's just the way you approach the world. And that's, that's fine. And a lot of times it's not that there's a right way in a wrong way.

It's just that people are coming from different places. Much more of my conversation with Gretchen Ruben after this. Life is short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time, you're on earth? And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast, Life is Short with Justin Long.

If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions, like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs, and sometimes more importantly,

the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times. But if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff. Like if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow Life is short wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to Add Free on the Amazon Music or Wondering App.

So I mean, I think you're probably right down on my questioner, but I do have a tendency on some levels to actually kind of just go along sometimes. So I don't know how that fits. Well, maybe because it's more efficient to do that. You maybe, it tends to be when I'm overloaded or when I just don't feel like thinking hard about something, I'll rush,

and just say yes to something. Well, this is the thing that a lot of questioners complain about. It's exhausting to be a questioner. It's really tiring. And in fact, I've talked to people who will have questioner, like, their questioner, they want a questioner partner in a business or they're married to a questioner because they're like, it's so much work to be a questioner.

But if I'm partnered with a questioner, I can trust that they will have the same thoroughness and I so I can trust their decisions, because most people I feel like don't make, don't really make reason judgments. I've often hear this from questioners. They're like, why are other people like lemmings? They just go along with everything.

They never ask questions. It's tiring to be a question. So that's interesting. So I've partnered with this guy, Ben Rubin, no relation to you, CEO of the 10% happier company. He questions a lot. And I find' no relation to you, CEO of the 10% happier company. He questions a lot. And I find it deeply comforting to know he's outsourced a lot of my analysis to this guy. Let him worry about it. Yes, and that's one of the ways that the questioners can manage

analysis paralysis or question overwhelm. It's either by setting deadlines, like I'm going to make a decision by Friday, like at some point any decisions better than no decisions, like I'm going to make a decision by Friday, like at some point, any decisions better than no decisions, so I'm going to decide by Friday. By setting limits, I'm going to investigate 10 software programs, accounting software programs, but not 30 software programs, or a trusted authority. This is a person who I trust. I trust their judgment and their expertise. If something's good enough for them, I can be very guided by their judgment. And so by loud, but he's a questioner. So you know that he's not gonna just wave his hands to things without understanding the reason to why. So that's a great way for you to alleviate

your kind of cognitive load by delegating to him a lot of research and decision making that you would otherwise have to do yourself. I hope I'm categorizing him correctly in terms of the tendencies, but the very least we can say he's really smart. And I don't have to worry that he's gonna make a dumb decision and actually then I don't have to worry about

doing the deciding myself. Well, having mad him, rings true to me that he's a question. Yeah, yeah, he kind of has that. But so one of the things that's really interesting I mentioned this before is that you set up the four tendencies as kind of overlapping then diagrams that you know you can be a questioner with who tips who tips in one way yes because questioners in some ways are like a

pollers because questioners and a pollers both readily meet interact expectations the questioners also overlap with rebels because questioners and rebels both resist outer expectations. So you can have, like my husband is a questioner who tips top holders. So he, it's pretty easy to convince him to go along with things. Like it's easy for him to see why you would do things.

Some questioners are very, very hard to convince. They really, really, really resist anything that to them seems arbitrary and justified. So for instance, they might not drive 65 miles an hour because they're like, that's an arbitrary limit. Like, I'm a really good driver. I should be able to drive as fast as I can. And you're like, what doesn't work like that?

Or like, why five garments in a dressing room? That makes my sense. I'm gonna take in 10. You know, or somebody who wrote it, she's like, I go into, the playground near my house has a sign saying that you're not supposed to go in if you're not accompanied by a minor, but I do it all the time because I'm not going to do

anything to hurt anybody. And I was like, well, do you think everybody should be able to live their life that way? And she was like, well, maybe not. Now that you mentioned it, I was just like, because she was a questioner who tipped to rebel. So, what I like about this is there's a range with a reason.

I guess a questioner, but I would follow those rules. So I probably a questioner who tips upholder. I think you are. I think you are. Because part of me does, just, I'm a bit on some levels, I can be kind of in some contexts,

a bit of a rule follower. Yeah, yeah. And that's the other thing about this is that there's variability and those variability, the variability can depend in part on context. Well, I, it's like you're different with your parents and their rules and you might be with teachers and their rules. I mean, I just took my kid yesterday and for his first meeting at his school and they were telling us that many kids are much better behaved at school than they are at home. Right, right.

Well, that probably has to do with anxiety, I think. And that's one of the things that's really important to understand about the tendencies is this is something that only describes a very narrow aspect of your nature, which is how do you respond to expectations? So you're a questioner and we could line up 50 questioners and depending on how ambitious they were,

how considered of other people's feelings they were, how intellectual they were, how curious they were, how adventurous they were, how considered other people's feelings they were, how intellectual they were, how curious they were, how adventurous they were, how extroverted or introverted they were, how neurotic they were, all these things could mix up in all different ways. And so you look very different from each other. But as to, I'm going to ask you to do something, you're going to say to me, why should I? That's the what the question says. Why should I? You're all going to respond that way to an expectation. But like a really smart questioner is different from a pretty ignorant question.

Right. You know, very intellectual questioner. And same thing like a rebel, sometimes people are like, oh, rebels are selfish. Not necessarily. Some rebels are incredibly considerate of other people. Have very high ideals, high ambitions for themselves. But then there are some rebels who don't really care what other people think of them.

That's gonna look, being a rebel is gonna look very different depending on how it's mixed up with these other characteristics. But are you gonna say that there's no overlap between a questioner and an obliger? Right, they're sort of the opposite of each other. Justice is about a rebel's and a poll der's are opposite.

But I do feel like I do better with sometimes with accountability. Like when I wanted a quid sugar, now as I want to quit sugar, it's so important to me that my wife's in it with me. Like I'd probably go vegan if my wife was in it, you know, if she wanted us to do it. But is that partly just because of the way your life is set up? Yeah, no, it's all about that. Right, but what if your wife set up your life

so that you were equating sugar, but then, but you knew that when she went to work, she was eating sugar, would that matter to you? I don't care. We'll see that's the thing. It's this, you're trying to create a situation that is gonna support you. I guess on the margins, I do, it would be fun

for us to really be in it together. Well, I make it more fun. I get that. Yeah. And I think it might make it stickier to habit or the lack of habit, whatever. Well, I make it more fun. I get that. Yeah. And I think it might be a bit stickier to have it or the lack of have it, whatever. Well, now we're getting back into like my kind of stuff I talked about in better than before. And one of the things, the influence of other people, which no matter what your tendency,

you're very affected by what the people around you are doing. Also things like convenience or an inconvenience. It's more convenient to eat no sugar. If no one's ringing sugar into your household and no one's ordering dessert when you get to a restaurant. And nobody's saying like, hey, let's stop up this cute little cafe and get a croissant. convenient to eat no sugar. If no one's bringing sugar into your household and no one's ordering dessert when you go to a restaurant and nobody's saying like, hey, let's stop up to this cute little cafe and get a croissant because you guys don't eat that stuff. It's just easier.

Right. So you're not saying that makes me an oblige. You're saying that doesn't necessarily make me oblige or it's just kind of a different, it's a different, this is very narrow. This is how do you respond to expectation? So like if you answer yes to the question, promises to other people can be broken. Promises to other people cannot be broken. Promises to myself can be broken.

See, as an upholder, I don't agree with that. Promises to myself are just as important as promises to other people. Yeah. I mean, in theory, I would say I could break both. Under the right circumstances, I would break a promise to somebody else. So here's another thing, that question. This is making me think you're a questioner,

because questioners don't see themselves in the, like the other three tendencies see how they're different from other ones, and the questioner see themselves in the other tendencies more, so they feel like they're more of a mix. Like I was talking to a high school student and he was like, well, sometimes I don't have a holder and sometimes I'm a rebel.

And I said, well, give me an example. And he says, when I have a teacher, I respect who gives me an assignment. I do it right away, like in a holder. But when a teacher, I don't respect his new assignment, I refuse. So I'm a rebel. And I'm like, no, you're a questioner

because your first question is, why would I listen to you? And so seeing yourself in all of the tendencies is kind of a question or thing because they're like, well, under certain circumstances, you know, it's very question of be like, oh, I can think of this exception. Or, you know, what about this?

Whereas like, if you're an upholder, you get it. You're like, oh, yeah. What is the deal with other people? So for the last- And the lifetimes are like, oh my gosh. Now I understand why I could only go to my exercise class when I went with my friend to that place where the teacher was like, so hardcore, if we didn't show up.

And you're like, yes yes it's the accountability or the rebel who's like ah now I understand why I can't use to do lists you know yes so for the last 20 minutes everything I've said it basically just confirmed your things I think so I think so I'm happy to do that so let's go to a blind okay so blighters the largest tendency so it's important for everybody to think about a blighters because you either are one or you've got a lot in your life. They're the rock of the world, they're type O meaning that they partner up the best

with all the other tendencies. They're great at meeting outer expectations but they often get frustrated with themselves because they're not meeting their inner expectations. Now, the solution, the answer for this is so simple. And it is an obligatory must create systems of outer accountability in order to meet an interact expectation. So if you want to exercise, you would sign up for a class, you would go with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up, you're going to work out with a trainer, you're going to

join an accountability group, you're going to focus on, if you don't go running, your dog doesn't get his daily run and he's going to be so disappointed, you're gonna focus on, if you don't go running, your dog doesn't get his daily run and he's gonna be so disappointed, you're gonna think about, oh, I'm gonna raise money for this, you by doing this 5K, so this charity that's really important to me is gonna make more money. I'm in a model good behavior for the people in my household. These are for, I'm gonna think about my future self.

Oh, well, Dan right now doesn't wanna go, but future Dan is gonna feel bad if he doesn't exercise. So I owe it to future Dan. There's a million ways to build an outer accountability, but that is what is necessary. And obliterate sometimes don't want that. They're like, I want to develop, you know, intermotivation.

And I'm like, yeah, that doesn't really work. Don't bother with that. That takes, that's really hard. It's not you. Yeah, just, you know, and it's a huge tendency. So just build in these forms of outer account. If you want to read more, join a book group. You know, it's like very straightforward.

Once you realize that that is what is missing. We talked about this a little bit, this tendency on the last podcast and my wife. Somebody listened to it and said to my wife, oh, I hear you're in a bledure with a rebel leaning because we have diagnosed it that way. And she now has thought about it for a year or so since the podcast and really agrees.

Oh, yeah. Well, so here's something that everyone who is in a blighter or particularly is married to a blighter or where a Southern blighter should be aware of, which is this phenomenon of a blighter rebellion. Yeah, so I've seen it. Okay, well, let me explain it and then you give your example,

because it's fascinating. So a blighter rebellion is when a blighter meets, meets, meets, meets an expectation, and then suddenly they snap, and they're like, this I will not do. And it can be small, sort of a little symbolic thing, or it can be huge, like, ending a relationship, blowing up a friendship of many years, quitting a job, or just like, having sort of a, like, a shouting fit where everybody around you was sort of like, where is this coming from? It seems very uncharacteristic. Nobody had any sense that it was coming.

Obligers themselves often say that it feels out of character or it feels like an explosion. It's not a controlled burn. It's big. And The thing about Obliger Rebellion, which it took me a while to understand, is that it's meant to be helpful. It's meant to save obligers from places where they're being exploited or taken advantage of or where expectations are just too high or unrealistic. It's like pulling the emergency rip cord. It gets them out.

It ends the situation, but it can be very destructive as it's unfolding. So it's much better for everybody if you try to get in front of the feelings of deep resentment and burnout that leads you to a blighter rebellion and try to stop it from actually working its way to the surface by dealing with those feelings before they come to a boil. So how have you seen this in your life? Well, definitely see the blighter part

in just describes who she is in many ways. Her whole life is just doctors. She's really lived with this ethos of service to other people. But she doesn't, she lets herself down a lot. I see it. It's painful for her. Yeah. And as a questioner, you're probably like, if you say this is important to you,

like why aren't you doing that? I don't get it. You know, she lives with somebody who's so disciplined on some things. I'm obviously not disciplined about sugar, but the exercise in the meditation, I mean, like nobody has to get on me about it. I'm just doing it.

But see, and this is why oblidators, they often, this is a really unfortunate thing about oblidators, they often blame themselves. They're like, I'm lazy, I lack willpower. Why can't I do? I'm close to somebody who's doing something so easily. Why do I struggle? It's like, hey, there's nothing wrong with you.

There are a ton of people exactly like you. This is easy to fix. Building that out of accountability and you can get what you want. Also a great example of that. It's so nice to hear this. I'm kind of channeling Bianca right now. I'm sure that would be when she lists this. That's going to feel very good for her. But as an example, we were on vacation recently and I was exercising every day. And I was going to, I was doing something that I normally don't do, which is I was going to

soul cycle. I mean, I like spin and but still cycle. Sometimes I feel like it's a little much, but anyway, there was one right nearby, so I was going a lot and I was enjoying it. And I kind of half-heartedly said to my wife, you knew you should come and I just kind of surprised me by saying yes, but I knew she regretted it immediately, but she had said yes and so I knew she would come.

And as soon as we walked in there, she was like, oh my God, I hate this. Yeah. She was so many people in there, and she's a little bit, she doesn't, she's shy. Yeah. And so during the... It's intense.

Yeah, but a bit of soul cycle. I've never been, but I've seen it. It's like... It's pretty intense. It's a lot happening. Yes, loud music. Yeah. Well, all spin classes are, have loud music.

And your clothes proximity, people are sweating, it's a lot going on. And in spin and in Soul Cycle, there's a whole I I I've been spinning for a long time just because it's a good workout even though I kind of hate it when I'm doing it. But Soul Cycle in particular has this whole rara soul aspect to it, which I've built a whole career of rebelling against. So I'm sure if any like people like my book would probably surprise that it would go to social, but anyway, it was convenient. And so I'm in the soul cycle this time with my wife. And the whole time I'm thinking how I'm sure she's going through the stages of grief

from now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, we walk out, she's on, she loved it. She loved it. Really? Absolutely loved it. And has been going back. We've been going as a couple.

And no, we've got, so I think there's something about the class structure that's really important to her. Well, and you really feel like you're recognized in part of it. It's like you're not just in the back doing your thing, it's also like we're part of this together. It's like a team feeling. Which he doesn't like, if you go to some spin classes

or group exercise classes, the instructor will come around to you kind of getting your face or critique you in some way. I actually like that, but she hates that and will quit and there's the rebel. So she doesn't want to feel judged. She doesn't want to like you like getting in her face and like pushing her too hard. She wants to be kind of left alone to do this thing.

She likes to be feeling part of the group and she, we have a trainer we work with too who she likes that accountability, but she doesn't want to be judged. So that is a very, very important point, which is when it comes to add our accountability, there's tremendous variation among what works for blighters. So one of the variations is exactly the thing you just pointed out. Some of blighters only like sort of positive reinforcement. So they want somebody to be like, it's so great. I, you know, like you come home and you're like, I can't believe it.

You've exercised four times in a row. That is great. Like you must feel so good. And you're like, yes, somebody's noticing that I'm doing it. I feel like there's accountability there, but it's positive accountability. And so if you're that kind of person, you want to make sure that you set up your accountability structure in a way that it doesn't feel judgey, it doesn't feel negative, because that

might just make you drop it all together. Other obligators, like some obligators feel very obligated if they pay for something. Like if they pay for an exercise class, they're going to go, because they're like, I have to go, because I paid. Some of the obligators almost feel off the hook if they paid. Kind of like, well, I paid for it. That's like as good as going. I'm like, well, that's not working for you. Somebody said to me in all seriousness, she's like, well, I paid for it, that's like as good as going. I'm like, well, that's not working for you. Somebody said to me in all seriousness, she's like, well, I made all these appointments with a trainer, but then I realized,

if I don't go, he still gets paid and he gets the time back. So she felt obligated not to go. And I was like, this is not working for you. So, you know what I mean? Like, what did you advise her to? I was like, you need to get another accountability structure. But here's, so I belong to a high intensity strength training gym. And so you have an appointment with a trainer and it works really well for people who need

accountability. But I said to them, and I really want to try to get them to do this, you should give people the option that if they don't come, you will charge them triple. Just don't require that. Say you offer it as an option because I bet some people would take it because they know they might skip it if they're just paying for the session. But if they're paying triple for the session, that raises the stakes and they might opt into that in order to have the accountability. You don't have accountability group. This is

something a lot of people use like you're trying to write your PhD thesis, you're trying to lose weight, whatever it is, you have a group and the group is going to hold you accountable. But one thing is for people who are very introverted, maybe they don't like to go to a group and have a conversation. That makes it sort of less appealing. I have this app, the better app, where people can join and talk about the four tendencies. And one of the things they can do is form an accountability group. And I think it's something that's very attractive to people who are really busy and want the

convenience of using an app, but also people who don't really necessarily want to be face-to-face for accountability. They want to do it in a way where it's more of a remove. That feels more comfortable to them. So, rebels. So, rebels are tremendous upside and also some frustrations on their own part and of others. So rebels are extremely in touch with what they want and what they choose. They're very eager to be authentic to themselves. They're very easy for them to think unconventionally. They might delight in breaking convention and going out, you know, thinking outside the box. they might delight in breaking convention and going out, you know, thinking outside the box. But the fact that you're gonna resist

as somebody else who tells you to do something can't even yourself can cause issues. So if you are a rebel or you're dealing with a rebel, the two things that kind of work if you're trying to get that rebel to do something. One is to think about identity because rebels can do anything they want to do. And so if they choose, if they think, I choose to be a responsible leader. I choose to be a loving

consistent parent. I choose to be a considerate member of this team. Then they can do the things, even the things that feel uncomfortable to them because it's part of expressing their nature. The other thing they can do is think about, and this works if you're communicating with a rebel, is information consequences choice. The information the rebel needs tell them the consequences of their action or inaction and then let them choose how to act. So you might say, well, you know, at the weekly staff meeting, which, you know, you haven't been coming for a while, but what we do at that staff meeting typically is we decide the projects, how we're going to divide up

the upcoming projects for the next, you know, a couple months. If you go to the meeting, you get to, you know, argue for what you want. If you don't go to the meeting, everybody else takes the interesting projects and you're left with the boring dregs. The meeting's at 10 a.m. on Wednesdays. So a calm if you want. You know what I mean? And then it's just like, okay, well, you can calm or not if you want, but I'm not going to check on you. I'm not going to remind you. It's up to you.

But you can't protect or insulate a rebel from the negative consequences of a choice or a failure to choose. And that can be painful. It's like painful to let a rebel child suffer consequences. Sometimes if you're like married to a rebel, those consequences could fall on you. But that's, that's what works. And rebels over and over. And don't nag and don't remind. The more you nag and remind rebels, the more you ignite the spirit of resistance. Because they might want to do something. But if you tell them to do it, then they're like, well, I'm not going to because you're not the boss of

me. More of my conversation with Gretchen Rubin after this. So I'm kind of figured out if my two-year-old is a rebel because he's a rebel or because he's too. Well, too is pretty young. Rebel does, many rebels, interestingly, have just spontaneously emailed me to say that they remember the moment in early childhood where they realized that no one could make them do something. Like, so I think you can kick in, your tendency can kick in very early.

Two is probably, you're not really, I don't think you have fully evolved consciousness at that point. Probably, yep. And it's even hard, you know, all through high school because they're just not autonomous in the way that adults are. They're not making decisions the way adults are. So it could be hard to tell. Sometimes it's very easy to tell, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

There's no way in which my son is believable. Yeah, well, he's too. Right, right. Let's hope. Yeah. I keep telling him he can have more agency when he stops pooping his pants. Oh, right.

Okay. That's the key thing. Okay. That's the milestone. Yeah, also, but what it does work with him, though, is giving him a choice. Yeah. That really, it that's the key thing. Okay, that's the milestone. Also, but what it does work with him, though, is giving him a choice. Yeah. That really, it's like the magic thing. If we say, all right, do you want to go to bed right now

with the consequences? Like you can either go to bed right now and you'll get five stories, or you can not listen to us, and you're not going to get any stories nor will you get your milk. Well, I think that for a lot of children, that works because they do feel

such a lack of agency. And so it gives them a sense of control. So that might not be related to tendency. Right. But certainly with rebels, like older rebels, or a children that you know are rebels, it's very helpful to say,

like something like, well, you know, if you go outside on a bright sunny day, you could get a really bad sunburn, which is gonna really hurt. Your skin can even blister and peel. And then your second side, while your friends are outside playing, because you've got to recover from your sunburn.

So do you feel like wearing a long-sleeved t-shirt and a baseball cap, or do you prefer to wear sunscreen lotion? Information consequences choice. And then if the kid's like, I don't want to do it, it's like, okay, see how that goes for you. You know what I mean? Because, I think sometimes people are like, well, you can't go outside without sunscreen. Yes, you can. You can. You can. And a rebel knows that. You can go outside without sunscreen. It can happen. It is possible. This is what I learned as an upholder from the rebels. I'm like, we're way more free than we think. There's a

lot of things you feel like you have to do that actually you don't have to do. Right. So, so we talked about this a little bit at the beginning, but just talk again about what you think the consequences and potential use are of this framework that you said, oh, thank you, I was having a favor. I think it comes into play in two ways. One is with yourself. You wanna manage yourself.

So you wanna quit sugar. What's the best way for you to quit sugar? Or I wanna write a novel in my free time, and yet I never miss a deadline at work, and yet why am I not working on my novel? Okay, how might I address that? Why, how could I understand what's stopping me or frustrating me?

But then it's also other people. So there's managing yourself and then there's also dealing with other people. So I have a conflict with my coworker who keeps questioning every decision I make. And I'm like, why doesn't he trust my authority? Why doesn't he defer to my, this is my area? Like, why do I have to keep like,

fielding these phone calls and emails? I feel like he's attacking me. Oh, maybe he's not attacking me. Maybe this is just his way. Maybe he's the questioner. Maybe he thinks he's adding value to the process. You know, I don't have to be angry about it. I could say to him, you know what, I feel like I'm spending too much time answering your

questions, like, we need to come up with a better way to deal with this, but I don't have to be as unsettled by it. Or let's say you're a doctor and you're trying to get people to take their medication. It's like, why aren't they taking their medication, right? Why don't people take their medication? Some research suggests that up to 50% of American adults don't take prescription medication for a chronic health condition.

And it's not like they're like, I'm convinced that this medicine is worthless. It's like, no, they probably like, yeah, I probably should take that medicine. So why don't they? I think that the four tendencies gives you a lot of strategies for how you might communicate with such a person more effectively. So how do you see this going?

How do you see greater adoption playing out if it does happen? You know, I think I don't know. I mean, I'm just trying to get the word out as much as I can. And I've already started, ever since better than before came out, I have started hearing from people who are using it in different ways.

And that's super fascinating to me, of course, and how they communicate with people. So I don't really have a grand plan for how to launch this into the world of ideas other than to write a book and help that a lot of people. I mean, I kind of feel like it's the sort of thing where the proof is in the pudding, where if people read this or hear about it and it resonates with them

and they're able to make an important change or have an important insight into themselves or other people, that's what's gonna make people think. Yeah, there's really something here. Final couple minutes, totally selfish request, but the idea that you were a happiness bully, I just wanted to take advantage of that. Oh yeah, let me.

What is that, how could I be happier and how would you bully take advantage of that. Yeah, let me. What is that? Like, how could I be happier and how would you bully me into doing that? Well, what do you feel like getting in your way? You seem like a pretty happy guy. No, I am pretty happy guy. Sugar was a, it was and it's big. So tell me, take me through your strategies for how you're going to, you're going to approach this.

I'm not going to put anything with sugar in my mouth. Okay. That's what I'm going to do. Okay. So let me give you some liminal situations. Yes. What about bread? So I actually, my secret plan is no sugar and no flour. Okay, well, we need clarity here, your questioner. So we need absolute clarity on what is being what is being demanded of you? Well, because Bianca has not signed on to that. Oh, I see.

Okay. So you need to have a consultation. Yes. Okay. But what you would ideally do is say, now, is that wheat flour? Does that include pasta? Yes. Okay.

So no flour, no sugar. Yes. Okay. What about honey? Which many people feel like it's a magical elixir of life. No, it's sugar. No, it's sugar. Yes.

Maple sugar is sugar. Yes. Catch up is sugar. Yes. Catch up is sugar. I don't really catch up. Okay. Catch up is maple syrup for hamburgers. Okay, so you're going to cut sugar. So and you hope that you're going to do it together. Yeah.

And so you're not going to buy anything for your household. Well, we have a kid who eats a little, you know, we let him have a little bit of sugar. So there's that. That makes things difficult. Ooh, okay. So I think I think really the key for me in this one was, I think we may talk in two weeks and this is all obliterated, but I think the key really is about seeing is being able to finally get that if I do this thing, it's like when I quit doing drugs, you know, like I just got,

I didn't want to have more panic attacks. Like I just got it, I got it. Two panic attacks on the air, it was horrible, I get it. I'm not doing that again. I like drugs a lot. I mean, I have an addictive tendency, but I'm not doing it again, because there was very compelling reason not to.

And every time I have sugar, the entire next day is a waste. So, and I am just beckoning you from the far shore saying, if you never have it, you don't want it. You will not care. It will not bother you. You will not be filled with regret. It's, it's the, the more you don't have it, the easier it is. I think sometimes people feel like, well, if I don't have something my desire for it is gonna build and build and build and it's gonna Overwhelming and I'm just gonna have this kind of crash now this gets into the whole of stainer moderator thing Which I've had about and better than before because some people are better off having a little bit

They're better off having something sometimes if you're an obstainer if you feel like it's easier to have none and clearly You're somebody who feels like it's easier to have none, and clearly you're somebody who feels like it's easier to have none, you're not going to have one square of fine chocolate a day. It's like a whole sleeve of Oreos or not, which is exactly the way I am. The longer you go without it, the less you want it. It gets easier and not harder. That's really has been my experience. I believe that, again, I'm just gonna revert to my Buddhist thing again, but it's about kind of feeding patterns of thought. So I can see how somebody who's a moderator, like actually the way to tamp down on the voice in your head talking about sugar all the time would be to just give yourself that

one thing, yeah, that one square of chocolate a day, it like shuts everything down. But for me, knowing that the squares and options ramps everything up. Oh, yes. Oh, two squares, three squares. Three squares. Training. It's my birthday. After the day I've had, I should have more. You only live once. Let's do short enough to have a bar of chocolate. I mean, oh, gosh, yeah. Well, so one of the things I would say is go deep into your question or side, which is, I'm sure you've read all the stuff about sugar and how it's bad for you. Have you read the case against sugar by Gary Thompson?

I'm aware of it. I don't need, I've heard enough. No, no, no. I think you should read it because I think as a questioner, it's really going to clarify. Interesting. It's going to give you those justifications that are going to strengthen you, that are going to make you all feel more purposeful about it. And also, and you could say to your wife,

I need you to help me do this. I need, because if you need her. Dapping into her will oblige your justice. Yes, I need you to set me the good example. If I see you indulging, I'm gonna feel like I can indulge. I need you to do this with me. I need you to be my example. That's going to help her.

One of the models for Blighters is you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. So she's counting on you to count on her. By seeing her example, you're going to be like, well, this is clearly something we can do. When you're bullying people about happiness, what are the other things that you hone in on just like at a cocktail party? Oh my gosh, I can really sort of be a jerk.

I mean, I would, I would talk to this woman, oh my gosh, I'm haunted by it. And she was like, my dream one day is to open a flower shop and she was in dental school. Dental school is a very specific thing. So I'm like, well, why are you in dental school? And she's explaining me well, she likes the hours, she's always been good at science,

she likes working with people, all this. But then one day, she was gonna open up the flour shop. This was her dream. This was something that was totally with, I mean, I'm not gonna get into the whole details of her life, but that's something that she could have done right now. And I was just like, why are you not opening up your flour shop right now?

Like, why is that the impossible dream? You could do that. Why are you in dental school? I mean, that's hard. That's a lot of time. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of effort. I'm just picturing this guy.

I was like really, to the point where I wanted to jump, I was like, I got a lady's lunch and I wanted to leap over the table, knock over the water glasses with my heels, and shaker. I'd be like, you've got to start the flower shop. You know what I mean? It's just like, why would you not? I don't know.

It just seemed like she didn't have a vision of why she was doing, I mean, and it wasn't like one thing was easy and one thing was hard. They were both hard. They're both very, very hard. And the dental school thing was like, that's like a 15 year plan.

You know, she was really locking herself in. And then once you've got a dental school and you're a dentist, it's like, how can you be like, oh, two years late? I mean, I went, did this with law school, right? Went to law school, clerked for two years, and then quit and became a writer. For a lot of people, that would be really hard because they're like, after all the time in energy and money that I've poured into this, how can I turn my back on? It's the problem of sunk costs. It's hard to do that.

And the more you go into something where you're sinking a lot of investment into a certain fate, it becomes harder and harder to switch. Okay, last question. This is one area where I actually do think maybe you could bully me in some positive ways about having this time management. I would guess what I would say.

If there was one thing that is kind of a drag on my happiness is like figuring, I have so much to do and then figuring out how to do it all in a way that doesn't drive me absolutely bonkers. And it can make me irritable, okay? That was a little irritable with my wife this morning. Not words were not exchanged, right? I just like wasn't in the mood to talk to her because I had so much weighing on me. Well, I mean from what I know about you is I just think you have a lot in your, I mean, from what I know about you, is I just think you have a lot in your day. Like, your day is really planned for you

to be at top efficiency at every moment. And so I think part of the problem, it's not that you're not efficient. It's just that you have extremely high expectations of what you can do with your time. Like, you meditate for two hours a day. Well, that's two hours a day of awake time, right off the table, you know,

and you have a lot, you have a many, many responsibilities. So I'm not sure your problem is efficiency. It's more like you have a problem of ambition. You really want to do a lot of things. So you could sit down and say, well, something not important to me that I'm doing and so I could light my load that way. Or maybe just sort of say, look, I don't want to let anything go. I want to do everything and sometimes it's just going to make me feel like I'm sort of

maybe barely hanging on or like I guess your periods where I'm like only preparing for the next day. Like there's nothing that I'm doing that isn't like for tomorrow. I'm doing this blog post for tomorrow. I'm preparing this podcast. Up to said for tomorrow, you know,, I've just looking at my schedule for tomorrow because I don't have the flexibility to look outward. I couldn't live like that all the time,

but you just have a lot of things you want to fit into your day. I truly, you know, my wife and I did a thing when I was freaking out about this, I don't know, like 18 months ago, where we kind of put everything on, everything I was working on on in-dance cards and the throw them down the table.

And there was nothing, there was like literally nothing either of us could agree that it wasn't valuable. We had to do them all. And I think I didn't actually say this to myself, but what you just articulated is probably exactly right, which is I think I have to just come to terms of the fact that I'm going to do all these things. Sometimes I'm going to be unhappy. Sometimes it's going to make you feel like you're just trying to cram too much. But also you're in the rush hour of life. You're like kind of right in your career. You've got a family, you've got a J job, you've got a side hustle, you've got a lot going on.

And that's just where you are. It's the season of life. And so I don't think that there's an efficiency trick that would help. It's just that you want to cram a lot into your day. And there's a satisfaction of that too. You know, that's what you want, that's what you choose. And so, I think there's a comfort that comes from just saying,

there's no waste there. There's nothing that you're doing out of just sheer obligation or out of inertia or habit. It's all valuable to you. Yes, that's true. So, that's very fortunate. There's something to be grateful for that. High class problem, no question about it.

I'm very grateful for it, absolutely. And that's probably why you're meditating to ours today. Like what is it? If you're feeling calm, meditate for X time, if you're feeling rushed, meditine for what's the thing? Expression is if you should, everybody should meditate for 20 minutes a day, and if you're feeling rushed, metatime for what's the thing? The expression is if you should, everybody should meditate for 20 minutes a day,

and if you don't have 20 minutes, you should do 40 minutes. Yes, exactly, right? So if you're meditating for two hours, I'd that suggestion is a pretty heavy load. Yeah, no one I need, you know, like I need plus also the whole two hour day thing. It's also kind of an experiment and something I'll write about and it's a whole, thing, it's also kind of an experiment and something I'll write about.

And it's a whole, anyway, we don't have time for this. But it's not two hours at once. No, definitely not. Right. No. Before you go, just give us a whole rundown of where people can find assets and information and all the stuff they, if they want to learn more about you.

Okay, so I have a website called gretchenrubin.com, spoiler alert. And I post there almost every day about my adventures and happiness and good habits on the four tendencies, and there's tons of resources there too, if you want like one-pagers on how to use the four tendencies or discussion guides for the book and all sorts of things. Then I also have a podcast that I do with my sister

called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. And we talk about the four tendencies there a lot, but also just everything related to Happier. You were one of our, I think you were our first guests. I was definitely not the first guest, but I was there once and your mom was in it. We were in a little shipping container recording. We now have much nicer studios.

Yeah, you were in the old black hole studio. Yeah, I got a little claustrophobic in there. Yeah, I remember that because it was, it's like a very low ceiling. But your mother coming, that just, she's so she was so calm. I was like, all right. Yeah, she's a calm person.

So that's happier with Grudson Rubin. And then I have that app that I mentioned, which is a place where you can go. If you want to have conversations with people or like your parent who's struggling with an issue with a child or you're in healthcare and you want to talk about how, with other healthcare people, how to use it.

And you can have the accountability groups. So there's all kinds of accountability groups for anything you can think of, or you can start your own. And that's the better app. And it's betterapp.us if you're on a desktop or if you're in the app store, you just search for better Gretchen Ruben.

And you'll find it. And then of course the book is like, where I lay at this whole thing out, very systematically about how you think about the four attendancies. Oh, and I'm on Instagram and YouTube and Facebook and Twitter under the name Gretchen Rubin. You know, I was looking at Instagram today and I was realizing I don't follow you. I need to start following you. You should. I will follow you. Okay. Awesome. Thank you, great job. Thank you. It's so fun to talk to you. Thank you.

Always. Always, awesome. Thank you, great job. Thank you. It's so fun to talk to you. Thank you for having me again. Always. Thanks again to Gretchen. She's got a new book coming out in a few months, so she'll be back. I hope then. Before we let you go here, a quick note from our friends at the Insight Meditation Society.

Next month, IMS is kicking off a new online program conceived by the great Sharon Salisberg. It's called Essential Mindfulness. Every month, for nine months, a different world-class meditation teacher will teach a series of lessons on the intersection of mindfulness and a variety of fascinating topics from ethics to trauma to science, to interpersonal communication. The All-Star roster of teachers includes many people who have been guests on this show, such as Kamala Masters, Alex Ascentos, Dora Williams, and Orange A. Sofer. The

sessions will be short, convenient, and affordable, and you can view them live or after the fact. You can sign up for all nine months of sessions or just pick and choose the topics that interest you the most. So whether you use mindfulness to manage stress and difficult emotions, improve relationships, increase engagement, or enhance your overall well-being, these discussions can help you further live out your mindfulness practice. Take it off the cushion, so to speak.

To find out more and sign up for essential mindfulness, check out Dharma.org, or click the link in the show notes. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ, Kashmir, Justine Davy and Lauren Smith. Our supervising producer is Marissa Schneidermann. Kimi Regler is our managing producer and our executive producer is Jen Poient. We get our scoring and mixing from Peter Bonnaventure over at ultraviolet audio. We'll see you all on Wednesday for another favorite episode from the Archives.

This one is a more recent one and it's from Brunei Brown. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.

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