Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - A More Relaxed Way to Meditate | Alexis Santos

Episode Date: November 10, 2023

The meditation style that changed Dan’s entire practice.Alexis Santos, has been practicing meditation for twenty years and was a student of a highly influential Burmese monk by the name of Sayadaw U Tejaniya. Alexis is also a core teacher in the Ten Percent Happier app and the lead teacher of our On The Go course. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/alexis-santos-rerunSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. I don't know about you, but I have spent a goodly portion of my meditation practice trying too hard, pushing for, I don't, I don't even know what. This is a common problem among type A people. We try to win at meditation, whatever that means. But the practice doesn't work that way. If you try too hard, if you over effort, if you try to make something happen, it's pretty much guaranteed not to happen. What is guaranteed is that you will suffer. As I like to say, meditation is like a video game where you can't move forward if you want to move forward too badly. After having suffered this way for many years, I finally had the great good fortune of doing

a few meditation retreats with a teacher by the name of Alexis Santos, who introduced me to a way more relaxed way to practice. Alexis's teaching style is pretty unusual, at least compared to what I'm used to, and while initially I reflexively reject what Alexis was offering, I quickly came to see that this was an extremely practical and valuable alternative approach. To what it's simply, this guy has really changed the way I practice, and that is why I'm bringing him on the show today. Alexis has been practicing meditation for 20 years. He is a student of a highly

influential Burmese monk by the name of Sayada Utejin Nia, who's a fascinating character, and you'll hear about him in this interview. Alexis also happens to be a core teacher over on the 10% happier app and the lead teacher of our on-the-go course, which I highly recommend. We're running that course as a seven-day challenge over on the app starting on November 13th. If you're not already a subscriber, just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps and start a free trial that will give you access to the challenge and everything else on the app. If you already have the app, just open it up and follow the instructions to join. Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and add free right now, join Wondry Plus

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Good to see you, Dan. Likewise. I think I have good places to start. Probably is... Can you just give us some grounding in? Who is Saida Utasia and how did you come to know him? Just for the uninitiated, I wanna say, Syedah, S-A-Y-A-D-A-W-U, which as far as I can tell, it's just the letter U and it's kind of like in Burma,

it's kind of like MC might be in front of a name in Ireland. And then Tasia Nia,ja Nia Y.A. So how did you come to know this gentleman? What's his story and what's his approach to practice? Sure. So, Saita Utasia Nia, Saita means teacher. So I'll just maybe keep it short and say Saita. He's a monk in Burma and is really a meditation teacher, focuses almost exclusively on teaching all day long to whoever shows up at his retreat center, whether it's other monastics, nuns, and monks or lay people like me when I showed up and I started studying with him in 2003. I had been kind of exploring the

different methods of meditation, mostly in India, and was really looking for a personal teacher I had. I had a few roadblocks in my practice and I didn't really have anyone to check in with and it was getting clear to me the value of having someone who's truly done their own work and is embodying wisdom. And so when I heard about this really young teacher at the time, his teacher had just passed away, Shue-yumin, Saidah, very highly respected, and monk, and had left really Saito Tessania as his principal student and was really just the first couple of years of his teaching. So it was really by chance I had met someone who told me about Saito and he had said just this person that that told me about

Saito Tessania and his style, he said just a few words. And the word that really stood out to me was natural. And I knew I wanted to go check out, you know, what is he teaching? Because a lot of my practice up into that point had been, could say in some ways, anything but natural. I was at times, as many meditators discovered, trying so hard, tying themselves up in knots. For me, there was also a kind of a fog in the background of some really deep discontent that was surfacing, which was surprising because here was this meditation practice that had been providing such support.

And I really had found a deep contentment, almost like I had found what I was looking for because I had recently kind of abandoned the life that I was on in search of something that could give me some more meaning. And so it was odd the life that I was on in search of something that could give me some more meaning. And so it was odd to me that I was hitting these road bumps. And what I discovered with side all was an ability to really relax and open up the awareness

to include the whole picture, right? So all the emotions, all the mental states, all the feelings, and to do that in a way that was really accessible. And really just in the first few, I could say minutes, even of being with him, it was clear. I wanted to go down that path of studying with him. So I stayed there for a couple of years. I ordained as a monk because I was there and why not? And then, that's been my primary way of practicing. Can you say, just give us a little bit more detail

about the difference between the way you had been practicing meditation before meeting Saida, and then after you, you describe it as being natural and opening up to many more aspects of your experience. So how is that technically in the simplest possible terms different from what you had been doing previously? Well what I had been doing which is in a way the way that many of us first start practicing which is to bring our attention to a primary object in the style that I was studying

beforehand was to really stay with the sensations of the body or of the breath, and to really use that as the anchor point. And that is a perfectly good way of practicing. It's described oftentimes as a progressive practice that the Buddha encouraged. And the element that I think I was missing and that really side augutesania starts in right up at front is to acknowledge that how we are looking at that object, whether it's the sensation, let's say, of sitting right now or the breath coming in and out, how it is that we're looking at that is really

a critical component of our practice. So beginning to understand that the mind that's working is more important than the thing that we're looking at. The thing that we're looking at we call the object. So the object might be the emotion that we're having, might be how the body feels. So those are the objects that we can pay attention to. And it's important to remember that it's the mind that is actually doing that work of knowing. And so often when we're paying attention to an object, we get so engrossed in what it is that we're watching that we forget

even that we have a mind, or we don't really get skilled at understanding the nature of awareness itself. If we're so focused on the object, it can be a little bit challenging to begin to explore that the whole picture, meaning the mind as well, the mind that's doing the practice. Let me just see if I can restate it in my words and you tell me if I'm right. If memory serves, you had dropped out of med school and gone to Asia and got into meditation. And the type of meditation you were doing was really focused on the breath or the sensations elsewhere in the body. Right.

So it's quite directed. or the sensations elsewhere in the body. Right. So it's quite directed. Then you meet this guy and he has you open up to whatever is coming up in your experience. So it can be sensations in the body, the feeling of your breath coming in and going out, it could be whatever emotion is happening

or thinking or sights or sounds. And he says, don't get so engrossed in whatever the object is, in other words, whatever it is that you're paying attention to. I want you to pull back and notice what is the attitude of the mind that is aware. That is very clear, Dan. Let's switch jobs. And actually, this is a pro tip for listeners. This is a thing you can do in your meditation, which is straight from Saita, which is everyone's in a while while you're meditating. Ask yourself

what's the attitude in the mind right now. Can you say more about why that question is so illuminating? Sure. I mean, in a way, it points really directly at how it is that we are living our lives. When we choose to do anything, there are habits of mind that we are doing it with. So a conversation that we're having right now, if you're listening to the podcast, the state of mind that you're listening in with, when you talk with your family, your friends, when you do your work, there are all of these mental habits that are playing out. And in a way, these are the habits that determine the quality of experience that we're having. These are the habits that will lead us down the path of suffering or of well-being. The very simple, but not easy, as we say, mental maneuver there of checking the attitude is really an invitation to see how are you relating to the present

moment? Are you wanting something to happen? Are you wanting something to stop happening? Now the truth is almost 100% of the time in every mind that is on this planet, we'll say at least the human minds, there is wanting and aversion. So it's not that we're saying sit down and have the right attitude, but it's an invitation to begin to recognize, wow, it is so interesting that even when I sit down to simply observe the present moment, so often I'll be wanting something, leaning in, and those little bits of movement of the mind become clear and clear that they lead to some kind of tension, some kind of stress. And it's those movements, we call them the defilements, which sound kind of a heavy term, but they're basically natural energies, habits of mind, that when we see them, recognize them and through wisdom, we begin to discover that those bits

can be let go of. And that's the work of wisdom. That's slowly we see a more skillful, more open, clear way of relating to whatever it is that's happening. So I'll just add on to that that in a skillful way, particularly as we're starting out our practice, it is often helpful not to just throw up in the doors and say, well, I'll be aware of whatever. So typically we might still start with things that feel really within reach, just the physical experience of the body, right, or the body sitting or the

breathing. But at the same time, the encouragement can be there relatively early on that awareness itself is not difficult. And I think this oftentimes is a pretty radical shift for folks to hear. You know, and I texted you just before we started and I asked you if you're aware, just simple text, are you aware to you? And now you, you know, you very honestly wrote back always. So I'm sure there's some truth to that Dan. You know, but we see how easy it is. And, you know, in daily life, which is where we are all living, we can think, you know, how easy it is to get absorbed in the experience that we're having,

meaning we lose awareness. And for a lot of folks that start to experience the benefit, let's say, of taking a few minutes of practice, the natural desire to continue to be aware kind of arises on its own. And yet we see how often it is the mind is doing anything other than being in the present moment, knowing something about what's happening. And so it can be helpful just to be reminded that awareness itself is not hard, but we forget, right? We forget to simply check the mind or to do something that allows awareness to return. We've now stated one explicitly and one kind of in passing, two of the primary phrases that SIDA uses as his meditation instructions.

I'm going to try to describe to people how SIDA teaches meditation and then you'll correct because I'm sure I'm going to say this incorrectly. But the way I took it from you, which is one step removed, but you've done a lot of study and practice in the style of meditation, the way I understand it is you start up by, he'll say, relax the body and then ask you to ask yourself a question, what's the attitude in your mind? You're trying to make something happen. You're trying to fend something off like knee pain or anxiety or restlessness. And you don't have to beat yourself up for the desire or a version, just the seeing it is a kind of self liberation. And then another question might be, are you aware right now?

And what is being known in the mind right now? And then you just kind of cycle through this. What am I aware of? What's the attitude in the mind that is knowing what I'm aware of? And since as you acknowledge, especially for beginners, it's easy to get lost if you don't have a base of sort of focus or concentration abilities. So yeah, then maybe you'll pick a more directed awareness and just be with the breath for a little while and then open up. What am I knowing? What's the attitude in the mind that's knowing it? And it's a little bit less militant, a little bit more improvisational, a little bit more relaxed style. Am I describing it with some degree of accuracy?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, in a way, and this is part of the framing of kind of understanding what it is that meditation practice is all about, which is to recognize that this is an opportunity to develop recognize that this is an opportunity to develop the skillful qualities of the mind. So we say the skillful qualities of mind, meaning those qualities that when they are more and more developed lead to more well-being. We make better choices, we make more compassionate choices. We inhabit what is this elusive quality of wisdom more, so we can think and understand life in a more skillful way. So when we think about what is meditation practice, where is it leading? Well, it's leading us down the path of developing the skillful qualities of mind.

Then we can see that the objects that we're paying attention to are simply there or being used to help develop the mind, meaning whether it's the breath, we can use the breath to be aware. We can use the breath to develop stability, but we can also use thoughts. We can use even tension in the body. We can use a mind that's really scattered. Over time, any experience with the right attitude can help to develop awareness, stability of mind,

and wisdom, any experience. And the beauty of that then is we really can stop worrying about getting it right. And in a way get interested in what can I learn about in the present moment? What can I learn from this present moment? Everything then becomes something that we can develop awareness from. And so part of that understanding needs to really be resting on a little bit of confidence that awareness itself is not difficult. So just a quick example, if I were to ask you and for those listening to this podcast right now, are you aware that you are hearing? So, Dana, you're aware that you're hearing? I am.

Yes. Were you aware before I asked the question? I'm always aware. I know you are. That's true. No, I think the honest answer is I was listening to you. Right. But I don't think I was consciously mindful of here. Yes, and that is the difference between, in a way, between awareness of that particular experience. Now, there may have been awareness in your mind around other objects, or just a general sense of

being aware, but we can also add in elements that we're not necessarily currently being mindful of. And that's just a helpful way to explore. All right, I've been hearing sounds and I've been listening. And then being aware that hearing is happening, a very simple process. Hearing is happening if there are sounds and we have what is called the working ear door. So the contact of those, right? So we get the arising of hearing as the experience. Knowing that hearing is happening, not hard to do. So oftentimes, if I just, you know, to students, if I say, you know, you students, if I say, you know,

are you aware that you're hearing, they'll say, well, what now that you ask that question? Or do you know the experience of your hands? Can you feel your hands? So if we've been really absorbed into something else and the attention shifts to the hands, yes, then it's available. And then we realize, we really start to see that, oh, right, being aware, it's not hard to feel the body. It's not hard to feel the posture. Sometimes it can feel a little bit out of reach if we're trying to grab something specific. But if we really learn to relax and simply recognize,

it is accessible to feel like I'm in the present moment. I'm not lost. I Know where I am. I know the physical body generally and I know maybe in some general way the current mood Any of those doorways in is another what we you know, I did I discussed like a tap of the swing of getting the momentum of awareness going We don't have to do a lot of work, of getting the momentum of awareness going. We don't have to do a lot of work, but we do need just that light touch. The more times we do that light touch, that's the kind of establishment or the development of momentum. There's a whole

lot of benefit that we can talk about in terms of why is momentum so beneficial but that really is in a way the foundation of how we can be in the present moment and be learning. Much more of my conversation with Alexis Santos right after this. Hey you, yeah you, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Jiffy is the fastest and easiest way to get jobs done around the house. Just hop on the Jiffy app, choose from the 40 plus services, and bam, you'll be matched with a reliable pro in seconds. Windows and eaves cleaning, check, yard cleanup, check. Plumbing, you guessed it. They've got it all. Plus, all jobs come with a satisfaction guarantee. Download the

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And so I came from a background of really either watching the breath or doing love and kindness meditation or doing noting, even if I wasn't watching the breath or doing love and kindness, I might just do an open awareness where I'm using noting just to notice thinking or rising and falling of the breath or hearing or whatever.

So it's pretty rigorous, a little bit athletic, all of these forms of practice. There's a lot of doing, a lot of efforting, at least the way I was doing it. And I show up on this retreat. And well, first of all, there's no schedule. I mean, most meditation retreats you go to, there's, there's a very rigid schedule of get up.

You sit for an hour, then you have breakfast, then you do a yogi job, you know, washing pots or whatever, and then you do some walking meditation, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, walking lunch, another little break, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, dinner. If you're having dinner, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, Dharma, talk bed. Alexis was, sitting walking, sitting walking, sitting walking, Dharma talk bed. Alexis was like, yeah, we're not really doing that. We'll get together once in the morning.

Well, breakfast, then there'll be nothing and then we'll have lunch, then there'll be more nothing and then maybe we'll get together in the afternoon and talk, which by the way, he was like, what? We're gonna talk. So to me, it struck me as like just, you know, romper room, no rules, and the meditation instructions themselves were, you know,

as I said before, quite a bit different. It wasn't like this set thing of, you're going to note everything that comes up in your mind, or you're going to repeat these loving kindness phrases, or watch every breath that comes and goes, it's no sit and, or by the way, lie down, stand, whatever you check your phone. It doesn't matter. Whatever you're doing at any moment, you can be aware and just check the attitude in the mind and ask yourself, are you aware?

And he mentioned this a moment ago, he likened this question of, are you aware to kind of pushing a kid on a swing, tap, and then you kid on a swing tap and then you let it go tap and then you let it go so you don't have to be neurotic about asking yourself this question ask yourself are you aware maybe mindful for a few nanoseconds then you drift a little while later tap the swing again and over time once you build up, you don't need to tap the swing as much. And if you're getting totally lost, you can go back to a sort of more directed style of meditation of just watching the breath or something like that.

And I remember thinking, this is crazy. And initially, really, my mind was rebelling against it. And I was remembering how when I tap my son sometimes when we're on a swing swing he flies out and then he comes back and usually farts in my face. And so that was the way the waking up was going for me. I would notice that I would ask myself are you aware and that I would wake up a half hour later after having written a chapter for a book or written some gloriously positive Amazon reviews of past books for myself, whatever embarrassing little rumination was going on, and I would wake up in a lot of self-laceration, et cetera, et cetera.

But over time, I really responded to this relaxed style, and I was able, after a few days, to build up some awareness. I say anything there that deserves clarification or response. No, I just brought some things up to my action. It was, yeah, just helpful. They always hear you describe the Dan experience of reality. We all experience reality differently. And so it was always a delight to be on a tree with you. And I'm here, your version of pushing the swing and having Farts land into your face. You know, and it actually reminded me a little bit as to in some ways why side of Utesiania emphasized more the attitude and the mind than the object. And one of the reasons why he was doing that was oftentimes, he was

working with meditators who were arriving at the center, so tight and tense and striving, and feeling like they weren't really progressing in their practice. So one of the questions side-off sometimes asked people, you know, how long have you been practicing and they might say, well, three or four years, but what they would often mean is that I would practice 15 minutes in the morning, maybe 30 minutes in the evening. And then he would just do the math with them, like, how many hours are you awake in the day? How many hours are you being mindful? him like how many hours are you awake in the day? How many hours are you being mindful? And then how many hours are you not being mindful? And obviously when you just count those very formal periods of sitting down and practicing

that's a very small fraction of what is getting developed? Moment by moment during the day? So if we want to develop our meditation practice so that it feels available, and not just something we do on retreat because a retreat is set up specifically to provide all of the conditions for deepening and awareness in wise view, like the views that we bring to mind that help us to see reality more clearly. So for example, that everything is changing, things are natural processes. So those messages, the environment, the fact that everyone else looks very

meditative and enlightened, right? So it's kind of reminding us, oh, right, I should be doing better than I am or whatever it is our mind produces. Then the retreat ends if you are fortunate enough to go on a retreat and you're left then with your own mind and your own life. And I'd say most people really have a hard time with understanding how to internalize practice so that it truly does bring day by day benefit and day by day progress. And so that's where the more we hear that awareness is available, that we can learn from

any experience. We don't have to be getting back to some other experience that's calmer. We can be in the midst of our overwhelm, our chaos, our mourning. If we've lost someone, our joys, any experience increasingly can be the basis for another moment of awareness. for another moment of awareness. So as we develop momentum, it's like the strength of the radar, of awareness. At first, it just goes to one object,

and that's fine. We go to the breath, go to the sensation. But over time, as if the radar of awareness itself gets stronger and stronger, and it receives experience. As that momentum of awareness gets fully established and this is just the nature of awareness. If you keep allowing it to get developed in a natural way,

so it's not tiring, you can keep going, you put in these little reminders during the day, at some point this momentum starts to go along on its own momentum. So, for example, pick your own habit of mind that you're not that happy with. It could be a lot of anger or self-worth, stories in the mind, anxieties, worries. all of these we could say are habits and the reason why they keep surfacing is because in a way we've practiced them. Moment by moment and many moments in our life, this mental energy has a risen, let's say anxiety, it's a risen but without awareness and without wisdom.

So this is where we can see the power of momentum. And we don't need to stop these energies, but the more we direct a little bit of our mental energy towards what's skillful, what's helpful, like awareness, like wisdom, that begins to gain momentum. There's one analogy that I had shared with you because there was a light switch sitting right next to me when I was discussing practice with you and your friends on that retreat. And usually the light switch of awareness, let's say from most everyone, the light switch of awareness is off.

That's the default setting. Then we check and remember, oh right, I'm hearing right now, or I know that I'm sitting or standing. That's a moment of putting the light switch on, and it's remarkable. Few moments later, it goes back off to its default. Now, the more times we do that little bit of checking is where and is present.

We don't have to be striving with a lot of energy. And in fact, in a way, the more relaxed we do it, the more available it feels. Because we're not straining, and we're just using a light energy of tapping this wing, or hitting the light switch. At some point, that light switch will stay on more than it switches off. That's the nature of momentum, the momentum of awareness, and that truly is possible in daily life.

And I think one of the challenges that we set up for ourselves is we too much associate awareness with sitting still, eyes closed, or calm. Like all of those are kind of, we think that is being meditative. But actually, really meditation is, am I developing a skillful state of mind right now? And we can do that even when we are in a midst of conversation or even when we're reacting negatively, but by watching, we're now beginning to also develop awareness and insight into the suffering nature of that reaction. That's what we need to do. If we can keep getting interested in the experiences that we're having, it sort of opens up the possibility of what we consider our path, our practice,

and it's not just taking time to be more secluded, which is a great foundation and should not be abandoned in any way and take as much time as you have and are interested in, you know, in those more formal periods also. Just to clarify, I mean, you made a nod to this, which I appreciated. There are a lot of people listening to this show who have never been and may never go on retreat, which is totally fine. And I believe what you are saying is this style of practice is available to you and perhaps very powerful no matter what dosage of meditation you're at.

So even if you're doing 10, 15 minutes a day of meditation, just start tapping the swing through the rest of your life of asking yourself a little question, am I aware? Sometimes throw in the question, you know, so what's the attitude of my mind right now? Is there, pervaded by, you know, wanting or, or not wanting? You can start moving toward a life where the light switch is on more than it's off. Absolutely. And I really do think just hearing the message that it's possible

in daily life, in the midst of raising kids, paying bills, you know, working and engaging and enjoying even and whatever it is, there is nothing about the experience itself that precludes being aware. And in fact, the more the understanding develops that any experience can either pull us in and we can get lost in it, or it can be the very basis of waking us up. So for example, a lot of people never develop much skill around seeing. So if you're sighted, you open the eyes up in the morning, A lot of people never develop much skill around seeing.

So if you're sighted, you open the eyes up in the morning, spend a whole day, the eyes moving around, taking in things that we're seeing and navigating and having views and opinions about and getting stressed or resonating with or whatever it is. And yet so often, almost entirely, it pulls us into, right, we get absorbed into the story of it, the experience of it. So developing a little bit of interest and skill

with being aware of seeing really Really can be a radical change and it doesn't need to be anything esoteric like aware of seeing. It's simply to recognize, just like we did with hearing, that seeing is happening. Seeing is already happening, but adding in that little bit of a light touch. Oh right, now that I've mentioned seeing, maybe you're more aware

that seeing is happening. Before that, let's say when we're not aware, we could say in effect, Moha is at that eye door. Moha is delusion. So one form of delusion is not clearly knowing something as it is. So just seeing everyone sees if they have the working eye door, what makes someone actually meditating in that moment is developing an awareness of that function that's simply happening. And a number of positive benefits that come from that, I mean, awareness itself is such a wholesome state of mind. But the more we start to observe the functioning of this body and mind process, the more we begin to understand the nature of what this experience truly is about, and how much we live our lives, clinging and grasping onto what ultimately are just changing processes

that when we allow them to be as they are, there's a greater clarity and ease to live in the midst of the whole range of pleasant and unpleasant experiences. But unaware, the mind typically is triggered by wanting what is pleasant and not wanting what is unpleasant. And those both stand on being so identified with the experience that we're having that is we feel there's no other choice other than to try and decimate or kill or get rid of anything that we don't like, right? Order desperately, hold on to the things that we do like. And yet, reality is always going to simply be a changing set of conditions, right?

So that is part of our challenge. If we're interested in it, it is to understand how to live more skillfully, or aligned with the way things are, and that's what meditation really offers us. Let me just take a stab at repeating that back too, because I think this is a key point. This practice isn't just about awareness for the sake of awareness, although, of course, as you said,

being awake and aware is likely to be a happier existence than being stuck in the fog of unawareness and delusion. But when the light switch is more on than it is off or more on than it used to be, you can start to see some really useful things, including the fact that everything's changing all the time, and that when you grasp on the things that are changing all the time, that can produce suffering. And once you start to see these non-negotiable laws of the universe, you can reorient the way you move through reality, which is that you can slowly, slowly bit by bit get a little bit better at not grasping, not clinging. And that is a huge accelerator towards a more happy,

common peaceful life. Well said, yes. That's right. or a more happy, common, peaceful life. Well said, yes. That's right. Is that what I just described? You keep using the word wisdom. Did I just describe wisdom? Yes, I really do think it's an elusive term. You know, aside all the way, he would describe it is,

he would lay out three yogi jobs, meaning three jobs a meditator can do. The first one is have right view, which is have wisdom. And in the beginning wisdom means an intellectual way of looking at experience. So you might just remind yourself that whatever is happening is a process. It's something that's arising out of conditions. Some cause and effect process. Every moment is some cause and effect process, and we can be aware of it. Whether it's hearing or seeing or feelings and emotions in the body, mental activity,

it's a process that we can be aware of. Rather than the self-view, which triggers, I want it to be different, I want it to be a certain way. So with that right view, we remember, oh, even anger and frustration is arising out of nature, out of some causes. So it helps to have the right attitude when we remember to bring in this wisdom, meaning right view. So just to name these three yoga jobs, since I mentioned them, the three jobs of a meditator, he really said these in order to make practice very simple, because oftentimes we do too much. But he would say, have right view,

so see things as nature, check to see if awareness is present, and then develop continuity, which would mean really practice with a light effort so that you're not getting tired by your practice. So just emphasizing the importance of continuity. So right view, aware and continuity. And leaving it very simple because so often we're experiencing things and we kind of think we should be doing more. And anytime for me personally that I was really struggling and I would sort of check in and so often I didn't have right view, which would lead to some kind of attitude where I was really struggling, pushing tense. So those very simple bookmarks can be helpful

to just check and see, you know how am I practicing, particularly when you're struggling or not sure what to do. So if somebody's listening to this and saying, oh yeah, whatever amount of practice I do every day or daily-ish, I want to experiment with this style. These instructions are those the basic instructions for day to day practice, you know, have right view.

In other words, to see that whatever's happening in your mind isn't you per se, it's the result of causes, impersonal causes and conditions. It's just nature. Check to see if you're aware and then nature, check to see if you're aware and then continue to check to see that you're aware. Yes, and that continue really seems redundant, but in a way, it's a reminder that, you know, the moment is always changing and it's so easy to just kind of drift again and then simply return.

All right, just continue, continue lightly and having some confidence that that will gain momentum. I mean, these aren't really from side all this is in some ways what the Buddha was teaching which is have right view, meaning there is a cause and effect process. There is suffering and the ending of suffering. And there is a path that we can travel down. And this particular flavor is emphasizing just bringing in putting up front the reminder to see experience as nature because our default is going to be seeing it through preference and through identification. And we're going to judge the unpleasant or, or clinging to the pleasant. So reminding ourselves that it's nature and then

just to be aware. And then that, of course, leads onward. And leading onward means as we develop more wisdom, as awareness gains more strength and capacity to receive, then you can learn more and more about even subtle movements of the mind, little judgments, these little energies that we discover in places that we would otherwise just be in the experience and not realizing that, oh, we're always being in a way this will puppeteer in the background pulling the strings. And oftentimes this puppeteer is not particularly kind or skillful. And so we want to see that and get interested in those habits as well, the subtle ones.

Much more of my conversation with Alexis Santos right after this. What reminder, don't miss the On the Go challenge, a seven-day meditation challenge. Designed to help you bring mindfulness into your daily life, it kicks off on November 13th, but you can join now, download the 10% happier app today wherever you get your apps and get started for free. We can't see tomorrow, but we can hear it. And it sounds like a wind farm powering homes across the country. We're bridging to a sustainable energy future, working today to ensure tomorrow is on.

And bridge, life takes energy. I wanted to touch on that point that you made early on about the, you're joking about how the retreat schedule was wide open on the retreat that I was leading with you. You know, and oftentimes there's this little bit of a feeling of like, this is in a serious retreat, like this is just camp, you know, it's too light, it's too easy. And yet the insights that one gets when you're allowing conditions to be more natural and you're not controlling as much, but you are just as interested in awareness.

You know, there's a lot there to see, and when the schedule is more open, let's say it's more, at times, approximating our own life, meaning we're choosing, even though in our daily life, maybe oftentimes we don't get to choose. But bringing awareness to all of those subtle movements, we can see how much of our life is directed by some kind of wanting. I want to get up, I want to go here, I want to go there, and we would miss gaining insight or seeing directly those aspects or those habits because we're so busy doing. And so sometimes having a little bit more of an open container invites us into being all the C habits

that would otherwise miss. What was incredible for me on that retreat was that, I guess I definitely had the attitude of, this isn't a real retreat, this is camp, this is BS. And then, so on top of having doubts provoked by this being different from things that I'd done before, I was also, as you will recall, in the middle of a huge real estate crisis that my wife and I had left the city during the pandemic, we were renting a house, we were trying to buy another house, and that purchase of buying the house that we're living in now was getting very, very complicated. And so I actually had to spend, and not in significant amount of many of the days on retreat, all in the phone with my wife and lawyers and real estate agents, incredibly stressful. So I was just

like, this is ruined, but because I'm such a type A person, I was trying to just, no matter what I was doing, if I even if I was on the phone, trying to figure something out with a real estate lawyer or a mortgage broker or whatever, I was just trying to ask myself, am I aware? Am I aware? Just kept doing it, pushing the swing,

and then when I wasn't embroiled in real estate, Mr. Goss, I would practice formally and informally. But I took advantage of it. They're not being a schedule. I sat as long as I felt like sitting and then I took a long walk and sometimes I'd lie down on the ground and just kept pushing the swing.

And I was shocked a few days into it when I, the light switch was all of a sudden on way more than it was off. I was awake and aware and I felt like I had felt on quote unquote normal retreats. And this again, I'm very sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people listening who may never go on retreat and they may just be practicing 5, 10, 15 minutes a day or some days. This is a thing you can do in your daily life. And it's the best of my ability. I try to do it in my daily life.

I'm not as aware as I am on retreat where I'm being more deliberate about it. I'm embarrassed to admit, but it is scalable, this approach. And one other thing I just want to say to the sort of rank and file meditator out there who may never do a retreat is, you know, if you're thinking about trying this

as your daily or daily-ish meditation practice or just experimenting with it. It is definitely true that the more open, undirected, what am I aware of style rather than, look, I'm gonna pick the breath and stay on that, it's easier to get lost. And so you may wanna play with doing a period of directed awareness where you're with the breath

for a few minutes and then open up and then go back to the breath. So would you agree with that recommendation I made at the end there, Alexis? Sure. And really, whatever works and whatever you find interesting, because if you find meditation interesting, if you start to feel the benefit and you really recognize it, it is beneficial. Right. I really do want to suffer less and I really do want to live more skillfully.

I personally haven't found anything more supportive than bringing these practices into whatever moment I can. And we're working with the very deep structures of the mind, deep habits, our personality, you know, but the momentum of our life and our identity is a lot less fixed than we might assume it to be, you know, we often just sort of say, well, that's the way I am. And well, the way we are is simply just momentum of the mind arising in a certain way again and again, and then there's ruts. So if we allow other ruts to get formed, and we call skillful ruts, as we allow those to deepen those become the places from which we begin experiencing life, right? And those would be the ruts of

awareness, you know, of more and more understanding, more skill in being with the wide range of experiences that were bound to experience in our living process. Life really does become very interesting. One of the things that I always loved studying with Saita Uteshenia is his very deep emphasis and commitment to daily life practice. Even though he ended up as a monk and his teacher asked him to stay in the robes before he died, so he decided to do that, he was married and had a kid and all of the insights that he ever talks about, their insights that he had when he was a layperson. He talks about being in the busy marketplace or in his depressive cycles in his 20s and

30s and the various things that he was going through in just daily living. So it gives a lot of confidence whenever I'd hear him talk about it, you know, something that he understood and it wasn't from kind of for treating deep into a meditative zone. It was actually being present with exactly the conditions of his life and getting interested in the difference between allowing and resisting, wanting, judging versus being aware, receiving, and learning from, being very interested in how the mind gets caught into struggle around experience. And then what happens as there's some understanding and the difference. And so when he really talks about the benefit of awareness, he says it was such kind of enthusiasm that as you, you know, at least for a while, you can borrow his confidence until it becomes your own. He's an interesting dude. But you know, I've read a few of his books and then talked to

you about him a lot. I mean, he describes himself the near-do-well of a large family who had went through stages of depression, drug use, got quite, had a really problematic relationship to drugs for when he was young. And kept getting sent away to this monk that his dad was friends with, he used to practice meditation with. The monk, you've referenced, was Shoyumin, Sioda. And this great meditation master, Shwaiwam in, took him under his wing or his roves,

and really was very patient with him, even though he would continuously get sent away to the monastery to study with Shwaiwam in, then go back to his life either to school or working for his dad in the busy marketplace, and then inevitably screw up again and go back to using drugs or hanging around with the bad people, and they get set back to the monastery

and this monk was very patient with him. So I must have seen something in him. And eventually, Sidado Taisan, it became a sort of adept and a great teacher. And as I understand it, it's still a pretty quirky guy. What's it like to study with him one-on-one? He's an interesting guy. You know, I just go back to study with him one on one? He's an interesting guy. You know, just to go back to what you said about Srimon,

maybe seeing something in him. And I think part of what he saw in Saita Uteshenia was a, this guy who's definitely was struggling with life and suffering a lot and finding all kinds of ways to suffer, which we are all very inventive around doing somehow. Even though it's so unpleasant, we find lots of ways to suffer. Side-all, Utesiania himself would, you know, you often said that he would either without meditation, he would have, you know, ended up in jail or totally addicted to drugs or dead, prematurely dead. And so he really made use of the practice. And I think part of that was because he

really lived life at large and made a lot of unskilledful choices. And I think just to name part of his personality, there's a lot of water buffalo in Burma. And the water buffalo do exactly what they're going to do, but they're just, if they're in the mud and they walk and they defecate where they are. And they're not trying to beautify, you know, how they come across, they're just water buffalo. And the more I hung out with Saita, his being exactly how he is was such an invitation to not be manipulating, not be controlling, but to really be with conditions as they are. And so that's part of the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the

really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really really, the really, the really, the really, the really really, the really, the really really, the really, the really, the really, the really really, the really, the really, the really, the really

really, the really, the really the really, the really the really, the really, the really, the really, the really really, the really, the really the really, the really, the really really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the

really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the really, the And all of those really are just habits that we can also begin to notice and over time become more skillful in actually allowing them as well to be there. And it's so relaxing and peaceful. It was almost like the very first time in my life where I had truly been allowed to be just as I am. I didn't have to be any different. It didn't mean I wasn't going to change.

I didn't have a lot that needed seeing, right, and letting go of. But in the moment, the imitation is, you can be just as you are and be aware. So powerful, so powerful, so healing, full of love, right? And yet it's not easy to do. And we often need to be reminded of the possibility. It's a great place to leave it. If people want to find more information about you, where can we get more Alexis? Well there is the app, Dan, that is out there. Tempsen happier. And then I actually do try and support people in their home practice.

So that's on my website. Just search. If you search my name, Alexis Santos, you either I think come up with a boxer or someone else. And that other person is me. So the meditation teacher, but AlexisSantos.io, if you want to practice together sometimes. My friend thank you very much for coming on the show. Really great job. Really

appreciate it. Thanks Dan for having me. Thanks again to Alexis. Thanks to you for listening. Really appreciate that. Also want to let you know about Adarma event. It's coming up on November 14th. I'll be talking to my friend, the great meditation teacher, Leslie Booker. She is now the guiding teacher for New York Insight. And I'm going to be talking to her as part of the New York Insight Fall Benefit event. You can watch the event online or you can go in person. Go to nymc.org for more details. 10% happier is produced by Lauren Smith, Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davie and Tara Anderson. DJ Casimir is our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman. He's our senior editor, Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production,

and Kimi Regler is our executive producer. Alicia Mackie leaves our marketing and Tony Magiar is our director of podcasts, Nick Thorburn of Islands, Rodar Theme. We'll be right back here on Monday for a brand new episode with Dr. Becky Kennedy, who is really impressive and is going to talk a lot about how to clean up after you've gotten into a fight with somebody. If you like 10% happier, I hope you do. You can listen early and add free right now by joining 1-3-plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself

by filling out a short survey at One-Ree.com slash survey. Hey everybody, it's Dan on 10% happier. I like to teach listeners how to do life better. Ah, I wanna try. Oh hello, Mr. Grinch. What would make you happier? Ah, let's see. And out of business sign at the North Pole

or a nationwide ban on caroling and noise, noise, noise. What would really make me happy is if I didn't have to host a podcast. That's right, I got a podcast too. Hi, it's me, the Grand Puba of Bahambad, the OG Green Grump, the Grinch. From Wondery, Tis the Grinch Holiday Talk Show is a pathetic attempt by the people of O'Vill to use my situation as a teachable moment.

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but that's not necessarily a bad thing. A Stuart Fluss for one said that no man is more unhappy than he who never faces adversity for he is not permitted to prove himself. I'm Ryan Holiday, the best-selling author and host of the Daily Stoke Podcast, a podcast where I break down the ancient teachings from the stoic philosophers so you can apply their thinking to the problems of modern life. On the Daily Stoke, you'll find everything from insightful conversations to people like Matthew McConnor and Gary Vee on how they've used stoicism in their own life

To short 10 minute teachings on how to deal with fear and build better habits Ancient philosophy doesn't have to be this inaccessible and practical thing on the daily stoke You can learn how to bring the values of stoicism into your own life one day at a time Follow the daily stoke on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts And you can listen to the daily stoke early and addoic on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts and you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and add free right now on Wondery Plus.