Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Become an Active Operator of Your Nervous System | Deb Dana

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

Practical tools for regulating your nervous system in stressful times.  Deb Dana is a licensed clinical social worker, clinician, and consultant who specializes in working with complex trauma. She is the author of Anchored: How to Befriend Your Nervous System Using Polyvagal Theory.In this episode we talk about:What polyvagal theory isThe case for understanding our nervous systemThe practical tools and exercises for changing our nervous system and learning to become more regulatedThe fact that our nervous systems aren’t simply isolated, self-contained phenomena – they are social structuresOur responsibilities for our own nervous system and the nervous systems of othersFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/deb-dana-rerunSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's the 10% happier podcast on your host, Dan Harris. Hello everybody, how we doing? We don't often think about it this way, but as we move through the day, the various moods we inhabit, excitement, engagement, aggression, fear, dejection, depression, they are all dictated by or correlated with our nervous system, or to be more specific, our autonomic nervous system. And the cool thing is, as you're about to hear, you can become an active operator of your nervous system. My guest today is Deb Dana.

She's a clinician and consultant who specializes in working with complex trauma, although to be clear, the advice you're going to hear her give today is not specific to people dealing with trauma. Deb is the author of a book called Anchored, How to Befriend your nervous system using Polyvago theory. We talk about what Polyvago theory actually is, practical tools and exercises for changing your nervous system and learning to become more regulated generally, and how to take a little bit of responsibility

for the nervous systems of people in your orbit. This interview is part of our deep cuts series where we resurface popular episodes from our extensive archive that deserve a second listen. Enjoy. Time for BSP, blatant self-promotion. I want to remind you I just started a new newsletter. This is kind of an experiment and admittedly a many years late to the newsletter game, but I would love if you would sign up. We've put a link in the show notes. Also over on the 10% happier app, a reminder that we've got more than 500 guided meditations

and courses from some of the best teachers in the world. If you want to navigate the holiday season with a little bit more sanity. This week you can take advantage of our lowest price of the year. Subscriptions at a 40% discount until December 1st, get this deal before it ends by going to 10%.com slash 40. That's 10% one word all spelled out.com slash 40. When you find something you love, you stick with it, like this podcast, and like working out with Peloton, and with up to $950 off Peloton purchases this holiday, bring home a Peloton bike, bike plus, or tread, and work out like nobody's watching.

Unleash yourself, ride, run, box, or freak the hit out. It's your workout, your rules. I always find myself looking forward to my next ride with Peloton. For Peloton's best offers of the season, now extended through December 5th, head to www.1peloton.ca-offers. All access membership separate. Terms apply. Hello listeners, this is Mike Corey of Against the Odds. You might know that I adventure around the world while recording this podcast. And over the years, I've learned that where I stay when I travel can make all the difference. Airbnb has been my go-to place for finding the perfect accommodations.

Because with hotels, you often don't have the luxury of extra space or privacy. Recently, I had a bunch of friends come down to visit in Mexico. We found this large house and the place had a pool, a barbecue, a kitchen, and a great big living room to play cards, watch movies, and just chill out. It honestly made all the difference in the trip. It felt like we were all roommates again. The next time you're planning a trip, whether it's with friends, family, or yourself, out Airbnb. To find something you won't forget. What a life these celebrities lead. Imagine walking the red carpet, the cameras in your face, the designer clothes, the worst dress list, the big house, the world constantly peering

in, the bursting bank account, the people trying to get the grubby mitts on it. What's he all about? I'm just saying, being really, really famous. It's not always easy. I'm Emily Loitani, and I'm Anna Lyong-Rofi. And we're the hosts of Terribly Famous from Wondery, the podcast which tells the stories of our favorite celebrities from their perspective.

Each season, we show you what it's really like being famous by taking you inside the life of a British icon. We walk you through their glittering highs and eyebrow raising lows and ask, is fame and fortune really worth it? Follows terribly famous now wherever you get your podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. Deb Dana, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's nice to be here.

It's nice to have you here. I'm going to open with a big question. What is polyvagal theory? Oh boy, that is the most common opening question. So in the simplest terms, polyvagal theory is a theory that my colleague and dear friend Stephen Porges developed about how the nervous system works. And in its simplest form, which is the way that I use it, is it has three organizing principles that govern how we navigate our daily life, hierarchy, neuroception, and co-regulation. If we understand those three principles, then we understand what's happening in our biology that then gets translated into our thoughts, our feelings, our behaviors, the stories that we enter into as we move through the world. Okay, so we'll go in depth, I hope, into these three layers or levels you described. But

let's just stay on the level of so what? Why should we care about polyvagal theory? So we should care about polyvagal theory because it helps us understand our biology. And even though we think our brains are running the show, truly our brains are getting the communication from our body. And so if we understand this embodied system, if we understand how the nervous system works, we can begin to shape it differently. I like to say we can become active operators of our own nervous system. And that gives us a level of management over our responses and a way to engage with the world with more awareness

and more intention. So we think we've got like an inner executive that we're running the show, we're controlling it all, all of our actions with our thoughts. But actually there's this, I'm gonna use a metaphor that's often used in a slightly different context from Jonathan Height.

He often talks about the elephant and the rider that there is a person on top of an elephant, and the person thinks he's controlling everything, but it's the elephant who's in control. Often when he uses that analogy, the elephant is our subconscious, but you're referring to our body, our nervous system that is really running the show most of the time. Yes. And through the vagal pathways, and what we know is that 80% of the information is traveling the pathways from your body to your brain. 80% and 20% is coming back from the brain to the body.

So, you know, in my work with people who have experienced lots of trauma, it became clear that understanding this body to brain pathway was important. And then as we began to discover more about the everyday role of the nervous system, I thought, so everyone needs to understand how this system works. It's like this is the vehicle we're driving through life and we need to know how it works. So we can, you know, manage it in a new way. We can regulate so that we can be in connection with others. We can create healthy relationships. We can practice self-care, all of the things that depend on a regulated nervous system.

Because if we are dysregulated, if we move into one of the two adaptive survival responses, it's not that we don't want to be in relationship or practicing self-care or any of these things. It's that our biology won't allow it any longer. We've moved out of a place of being able to into a survival response. So, it's like polyvagal theory. It's my words, not yours. It's kind of like an operator's manual and owner's manual for this mind-body system that

is our life. Yes, beautiful. It's a lovely way to put it. You know, one of the things you wrote about the nervous system that I found so interesting is that I don't know if this is the exact term you use, but it is a social structure. It's not self-contained. Yes, our nervous system, although it's embodied, is always connecting both with our own brains, our own minds, but it's also connecting with the environment around us with other people's

nervous systems. The nervous system has three parts to it. We are a system that then is in relationship with other systems, and you can keep expanding out and out. One of the things I say is that we are inextricably linked nervous system to nervous system around the globe. Every nervous system is communicating. Our nervous systems are in communication right now. And so what I like to do is help people be able to speak that language, understand that language. How are our nervous systems communicating right now, mine and yours? So that would take us to neuroception one of those organizing principles and neuroception is the nervous systems way of listening and it's listening

Inside our own bodies. It's listening inside to what's going on in our visceral lungs, our hearts. It's listening in the environment around us and it's listening in the space between. So my nervous system is looking for cues of welcome from your nervous system. I mean the words you speak are lovely as well, but the look on your face, your movements, your eye gaze, the tone of your voice. These are the below the level of conscious awareness ways the nervous system feels welcomed or warned. And that's happening micromania to micromania every time we're around another nervous system. And so if we can bring that to the level of explicit awareness, we then get much more

information. We often think, I don't know why, but I just don't like being around that person. That's your nervous system sending you those cues. And when we can bring awareness to what we can think, oh, now I know why, because there is this thing that person does that reminds me of somebody in my life, has nothing to do with that person. It's a reminder, a nervous system, autonomic reminder of somebody else. So it's interesting. We sometimes find that, oh, I really do like that person. It's just when they do that thing that I feel unsafe.

So you said there are three parts of the nervous system. One is neuroception. What are the other two? Hierarchy. And hierarchy are the three basic states that the nervous system has access to, that it takes us through. There's a state called Ventral, which is the state of regulation, safety connection, that you and I are experiencing now, we hope, so that we can communicate, connect,

our prefrontal cortex, our brain works with us when we're in this place of regulation. When the world feels too challenging, the next place we go is to sympathetic fight and flight. And we probably all know what that feels like that cortisol adrenaline flooding us. And when we go to that place, our prefrontal cortex no longer works in the same way. So we lose access to planning and thoughtfulness and awareness, and we move into this survival response. So the nervous system now says, I don't care about anything else, but survival. And fighter flight does not resolve the situation. The third place the nervous system can take us

into dorsal shutdown collapse disconnection. And so whereas sympathetic is an overwhelming flood of energy, chaotic, disorganized energy, purposeless energy, dorsal is a draining of that energy. And you might think of a time recently when you felt sort of that just going through the motions, but I'll have the energy to really be here, be present or care. That's a dorsal flavor. In its extreme, it's sort of curled up in a fetal position unable to move or dissociate it, but his first flavor is just going through the motion. It's not really here. And we go through these all the time in little ways, all the time during the course of the day, and then in big ways, when we're challenged by experiences that are just overwhelming.

Just to clarify some terminology for folks, people who listen to the show may already know that sympathetic nervous system, but it can be confusing because it sounds good. Sympathetic, this is awesome, but actually the sympathetic nervous system, that's fight or flight or fleet. That is fight or flight, yeah.

Or fight, flight or freeze, rather, yes. I guess Dorsal is freeze. Well, it's interesting because they're actually two kinds of freeze. There is a freeze where everything is flooding through your body, but you can't move. That's that deer in the headlight sort of experience. And that is a combination of the sympathetic fight flight and the Dorsal immobile. So it's an interesting thing. So yes, sympathetic fight flight and Dorsal is collapse shut down. And the ventral is engaged. Be organized, move through the world in that way. So we go through this in micro ways throughout the day, assuming that we're not in an emergency where we're going through it in a macro way. Just trying to think like back on my own life, examples of dorsal just because that's somehow the most intriguing to me. There are times when I'll be in a difficult conversation, I remember when my wife and I

did couples counseling, I would just get so tired and dissociative with no reason really. I wonder if that is just a version of what you're describing. Yeah, see, there's no brain reason, no logical reason, but the nervous system, neurocepting, if we want to use that, neurocepting, cues of danger. And the nervous system, I think, always works in service of our safety and survival. And so in that moment, the nervous system felt you were in danger, and it enacted a survivor response. It took you into that tired, certain not here, can't respond place. And if you know that, and if your partner knows that,

the story becomes a very different one, right? The story doesn't become, oh, Dan just doesn't want to do this. Here we go again, he's just not paying attention. The story becomes, oh, Dan's nervous system is dysregulated in a way that he can't be present. And that's a very different story. Right, so if you're fluent in polyvagal theory and your partner is too, you could just call out

dorsal right now. There's not that I don't care, but something that maybe below the level of conscious awareness is going on here. Right. Yeah. And my goal in life is to help people become fluent in this because it changes the way we look at others. It changes the way we can have curiosity and self-compassion. And I can be curious about what's happening to somebody else rather than going immediately into the story, the story of shame, blame, judgment, criticism. I'm so good at that. Yeah, most of us are.

You're taking that away from me. Well, I'm offering you a different pathway. I don't know. What do you think it might be like to not immediately go to the judging story about self another, you know? I think it would be a much more supple and smooth life than the one I'm leading now. Yeah.

And the thing I would like to say is that as you enter into that place and have a more flexible nervous system, that then gets transmitted to the people around you. And so the way we move through the world impacts the world, which I find fascinating. I find it's a huge responsibility, but I also find it's a great opportunity. So is that the third level, which is co-regulation? Yeah, co-regulation. And co-regulation is, we call it a biological imperative. It's something we need in order to survive. We come into the world, we need another human to be there with us. And for many of us, the biological expectation is, you come into the world and you get met by a regulated nervous system.

Someone who cares and is ready to welcome you. And for so many of us that didn't happen. And so that co-regulation didn't emerge the way it needed to in the beginning. It is a lifelong need. And when I say that to some people, it sounds terrifying. You mean, I need to be safely connected to others forever to live a life of well-being, yes sounds terrifying. I need to be safely connected to others forever to live a life of

well-being, yes. And then, however, we all have our own sort of needs for how much. And so, in my experience, I don't need as much connection to others as some other people in my life. And yet, I know how much I do need. And so so as you think about your life, you think, oh, you know, I'm pretty good on my own for a long time. But then I need, right? And what we need is to feel safe with another person. So we need to be met by a regulated nervous system. And that's a lifelong need. Do a cats count? Yes, mammals, cats, dogs, yes. Yeah, I mean, we do also need a human, but for many of my clients in the beginning, it was their pet that was their co-regulating safe mammal.

And then it was me because I could predictably show up. And then we'd be in to feel safe that, oh, maybe there's another person in the world who's safe enough, regulated enough, predictable enough. And those people are not always there to co-regulate with us because they have their own nervous systems that have their own moments of dysregulation, which is to talk about couples. We depend on our partner for co-regulation and that's not always present and available. And so we have these ruptures and we make repairs. That strengthens the relationship. We have a rupture where you move into a disregulated state and I'm thinking where did he just go? And then you come back to regulation and we make

the repair, we come back into connection, nervous system to nervous system and brain to brain. That strengthens our relationship. You talked earlier about co-regulation, giving you a sense of responsibility, because how you are matters. Is it possible that it's also an opportunity in that you can kind of create the world you want by being a vector of, I don't love this term, but safety. Yeah, to say you don't love that term safety. Well, I don't love the term because it's kind of to regir right now the type of thing that people are saying on college campuses and it can come off as a jargonny. So that's why I don't love it. Yeah, and I love that you brought that up because I use

safety danger because it's the easiest way to teach people that kind of understand safer, unsafe, safety danger. But for many people, safety is not the word they want to use. And so when I'm working with people, I always invite them, what word would you use to describe this place? It could be connected, disconnected, it could be approach-avoid, welcome-worn words can become sort of jargonny and they also don't always fit for all of us. So yes, as we go back, however, we can use safety or welcome, whatever we want to use for the word. And yes, it is an opportunity if I am regulated and I am in connection with other people, their nervous systems feel that regulation and their nervous systems begin to feel the ability to regulate as well, come into connection.

And I think that's a really beautiful thing. The other is also true, however, if I'm dysregulated, then I'm sending warnings to all of the nervous systems around me. The same is true if I'm in a one-to-one relationship or I'm with my family or my colleagues, or if I'm simply walking through the world,

or I'm out in the world, doing the grocery shopping, nervous systems are still communicating. It feels a big responsibility. It's also humbling to know that each of us impacts the world in this way. So as I'm out in the world, if I'm, you know, feeling distressed. I'm noticing, oh, yeah, I was one of those people who added to the level of distress in the world today. And so the next time I'm out, feeling regulated, I'm going to really notice, oh, today, I'm sending regulating energy out.

I always just look at things through the selfish lens because that's my wiring. And if you're walking through the world as regulated as you can be at that moment, and your small interactions with somebody who's delivering something to your house or the barista or whatever, and then your larger interactions with your family members and friends and coworkers, you can just make your world cozier. Yes, it's a circular experience, right? Because as you are sending that out, you're also receiving back

and then it can build micro moments add up to create bigger moments. I love that thinking about this. It's micro moments. We're looking at micro moments. And those micro moments have meaning. Coming up, Deb Dana explains how even if we've spent our whole lives building up patterns of self-protection, calcified layers of armor, we could still change our nervous systems using some very simple exercises that she will lay out for us.

Simple exercises that she will lay out for us. Psst, hey you, yeah you. I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Jiffy is the fastest and easiest way to get jobs done around the house. Just hop on the Jiffy app, choose from the 40 plus services, and bam, you'll be matched with a reliable pro in seconds. Windows and eaves cleaning, check, y'all clean up, check. Plumbing, you guessed it. They've got it all. Plus, all jobs come with a Satisfaction Guarantee.

Download the GIFI app or sign up at jiffyondemand.com and don't forget to use the code first for $25 off your first job. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on. So do sit back and enjoy.

Brydon and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever you get your podcasts. by going to 10% dot com slash 40, that's 10% one word all spelled out dot com slash 40 for 40% off your subscription. I'm sure you're familiar with the work of Barbara Friedrichson who's been on the show. She wrote a book called Love 2.0. I'm stealing a lot of her activities and a lot of my work, which is to create a sort of a broader more often used a fancy word, capacious understanding of what love is. And she sort of defines it down, usefully, from Tom Cruise declaring, you complete me to just how are you with the

professional shows up at your house to fix something. Right. And Barb Fredrickson, the work is beautiful. And she talked about an upward spiral, which is what we're talking about here, the micro moments build and we have more access to this regulating ventral energy and her research actually has showed that our baseline of ventral energy can increase. We can change our nervous system. I think that's the hope that Polyvago theory brings brings, that we can reshape, even if we have had a lifetime of patterns of protection that are embedded in our system and we move into them easily, and we have not had many experiences of feeling safe in connection, that can change. That, I think, is so wonderful working with clients. It's important, but just for curious human beings knowing you can shape

your nervous system in new ways. If anybody's curious to learn more about Barbara Fredericks, and she was on this show, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes, but to pick up on that extremely intriguing thing, you just said you can change your nervous system, which sounds like what we should title this episode. How do we change our nervous system? We change our nervous system, which sounds like what we should title this episode. How do we change our nervous system? We change our nervous system by doing small things over and over. And some of the ways we do it are by finding these micro moments of control and noticing the bringing them into explicit awareness. You know, one of the things that I talk about all the time, and what I call glimmers, we

have these moments, micro moments, of regulating energy, a glimmer of that place of okeness. We just move right by it, because our built-in negativity bias doesn't allow us to see it. So we have to be on the lookout for those glimmers for those micro moments. And when we find one, we want to stop,

just for a moment, save it and recognize it. I like to give people easy practices, right? Because then they're more willing to try and monetize and they have a positive response. So looking for glimmers is one way, and as you find one, you begin to look for another and another. So again, it builds on itself. That's one of the ways that we do it. Their breath practices, their movement practices,

there's so many practices that we can do, that build ventral capacity that help us come to ventral and stay there longer. And I do want to put in that the goal is not to always be in ventral. That's an unachievable goal, nor is it one that is desirable. The goal is to be regulated when I can and to know when I've moved out of regulation into a survival response and be able to find my way back to ventral. Ventral is a home. Every human being has a biological home in this place of regulation. It is built into our biology, right? Even if you've had a trauma-saturated life, your biology still has that place of

ventral that you can find your way to. We uncover those pathways, which is a lot of the work that we do. So even when we get taken out and go to, you know, I call it our home away from home, go to one of the survival responses that's so familiar to us. My home away from home is in dorsal disconnect collapse. I'm really good at taking that step back and not really being here. Yours might be sympathetic, don't know, that place of overwhelming energy. But when we go to our home away from home, the work is, can I find my way back? That's when we build flexibility and flexible nervous system is what we're looking for.

So, noticing glimmers, breath practices, stopping for a moment to sigh. Right? Sying is one of the simplest breath practices. We do it spontaneously many times an hour, but we can also intentionally sigh. So if you're in a place of dorsal hopelessness to spare, collapse, you can breathe a sigh of despair and bring awareness to it, and it begins to just interrupt that just a bit. A sigh of frustration in sympathetic disrupts it just a bit, and then when we are back and ventral, a sigh of relief that we got there, or a sigh of contentment that we are there. So that simple sighing is one thing

that I love to invite people to do. Let's keep talking about these little practices that we can do. Just to go back to your glimmers of OKNIS exercise, the little example that comes to mind for me that I think I probably didn't appreciate as much, as I should have, but just before this podcast I was writing and then I decided to take a micro break and went in the other room and we have a six-month-old cat,

Aussie Mandeus, and he unfurled and showed me his belly and purred. And so like I got in there and gave him a kiss. And that all happened somewhat reflexively, but if I had noted, this is a glimmer of Ocanis, and then I accumulated enough moments from Aussie or my wife for just some view out the window throughout the day and was conscious about that, that is part of the training of the nervous system. Exactly, and the glimmer of Ocanis with your cat will happen over and over, and as you bring sort of that awareness to it, and even as you remembered it and reflected on it, did you feel it come alive again? Yeah, you can, that's interesting how you can just kind of bring the taste back.

Yes, and that's your biology bringing the taste back, right? It's a brain body combination because your brain is remembering the experience and putting language to it, but your body is bringing it alive again. And that's the beauty of these things, is understanding that even in a trauma saturated life, the nervous system also has these glimmers, these moments, micro moments. And so understanding that the nervous system can do both, moments. And so understanding that the nervous system can do both can be both, you know, deeply dysregulated because of what's going on in the world and have these micro moments of a glimmer of alkanis. If we can catch those and then reflect on them, we bring it alive and in the nervous system, it strengthens that pathway, which is really what we're doing.

The pathway is in there. We're uncovering it and we're strengthening it. So now when you next time you go see your cat, you're going to think, oh, yes, and you'll feel it. And then it becomes a different experience. Right? I call them anchors, ventral vagal anchors. What are the things? The people places the objects, the times when we predictably can feel those moments of Okeness. You talked about maybe looking out the window. Nature often brings a moment of Okeness. Looking out the window, I often look out the window just to feel connected to something. Objects, I live half my time in Maine by the sea. And so I have beach stones all around, and when I just need a moment to remember, oh, yes,

I have this regulated place, I grab a beach stone. We have things we wrap up in. You have a favorite thing you wrap up into stay warm. It brings that experience alive, a biological experience of Okanus alive, and then we give it meaning with our brain, but before it hits that brain place, it's an embodied experience. And I think that's really lovely to remember. The brain's job is to really make sense of what's going on in the body. So it creates these wonderful stories, right? It creates amazing stories that emerge from

the autonomic state, from either ventral sympathetic or dorsal. And one of the practices that I talk about and I love to do is to take a very simple experience and look at it through each of the states and hear how very different the story is. And I don't know if you have an experience you want to think about or I can use an example, but it's fascinating to just see that my state creates my story. Is that not wonderful? I'm just trying to think about how this would work. You pick an experience and you look at it through ventral dorsal and what's the third? Sympathetic. Yeah, yeah. So we were flocked on it to really hear how this one experience is interpreted three very

different ways by the brain because of the state we're in. So I can use an example in getting ready for this podcast, you know, having to arrange a space. And the one thing that I needed to do was hang some moving blankets to dead in the sound. And I tried really hard to do it myself and couldn't do it. So if I look at that through three states, my sympathetic fight flight, I got really angry about it in this sort of, I can't believe that I can't figure this out by myself. What is wrong with me?

I am so stupid. I might as well just give it up now. Really angry around that. In dorsal, it was this despairing hopefulness. I'm just gonna give it up and I'm just gonna cancel everything because I can't do this. Inventual, it was, you know, my son-in-law came over

and did it with no problem and inventual, it was this is really cool. I could ask for help. My son-in-law appeared and we actually had some fun figuring out how to hang these things. The experience is exactly the same. It was hanging a moving blanket. But the story about it is so different. And all of those stories were available to me. Right? They all live inside my nervous system. It's fascinating. And this is a practice you would recommend we do once and well. Yes, absolutely.

I invite people to get good at listening. I call it the story of three states. Listen to the story of three states. I usually do it as a reflective practice because when I'm in the middle of it, it's hard to remember. There are two other stories. When I'm in the midst of a survival response, it's hard to say, wait a minute, there are two other stories.

But as a reflective practice, it really begins to build that awareness, that, oh, there are three states circulating inside here all the time. And if I get better at finding ventral, that's the story that I'm going to be hearing more often. So let's stay with getting better at finding ventral, that's the story that I'm going to be hearing more often. So let's stay with getting better at finding ventral. You mentioned other kinds of exercises earlier, I believe you used the word movement. Yes. So movement is a really wonderful way to move through the states. And I often do a practice of inviting movement to move ventral,

too sympathetic to dorsal and back up again. Because again, remember, we go through these states in an order, in a predictable order. And so part of our work to build flexibility is to be able to move down the hierarchy and back up. And movement can be very activating of a survival response. So I often start with imagining movement before you actually enact the movement because even for me often you're really getting to know my nervous

system, aren't you? But even for me enacting a movement when there are other people around challenged my capacity to stay regulated because your motor cortex when you imagine movement comes to help. And so you get some of the same bang for the buck to begin with. Just find a movement. And I usually do hand movements, but you can do a full body movement. That feels regulating. Find a movement that feels regulating. And just notice, this is connecting with your ventral regulated nervous system. And everybody's movement is going to be different. connecting with your ventral regulated nervous system. And everybody's movement's going to be different.

I do find that ventral movements have a rhythm. They often have a circular flow to them. And so once people find that movement, then they can imagine it when they want to reach for ventral. They can enact it. And they can do that over and over. And their body becomes used to, oh, yes, ventral. Oh, yes, ventral, they can enact it, and they can do that over and over. And their body becomes used to, oh yes, ventral, oh yes, ventral. And then sympathetic, when you're in sympathetic, when you're in that place of overwhelming flood of energy, chaotic disorganized,

the work is to let that movement come to life, and it's usually jagged and disjointed movement, and then very slowly see how it might begin to come into a bit more of a rhythm and regulation. Because as you allow the movement to change in that way, don't stop the movement. We're not trying to stop what's going on. We're simply trying to help it organize in a different way so that we then come from sympathetic back up to ventral. So that's the sympathetic challenge, which I think is lovely. And when you're feeling some of that mobilizing energy that feels like it's going to be too

much, take that energy out and do something. Go for a walk, go for a run, find a way to let the movement move you in a way that doesn't then turn into this anxiety and anger. And then endorecel because dorsal is this absence of energy. So endorecel, it's very hard to bring movement back, right? We're in this immobilized sort of shutdown place. And so oftentimes endorecel, it truly is imagining some energy coming back in. It might be just noticing the breath, not trying to do anything, just noticing, oh yes,

I am breathing. My heart is beating because something's always moving in our body, wrong heart, something, blood flow, and then to just invite a very gentle movement, a reminder that, oh, I'm here, I'm present. Does that bring us back into this moment in time? Because dorsal is really experience of being lost, floating, untethered. So we want to bring a movement, sometimes just rubbing your feet on the floor, right? And people will find their own movements. I like to say there's no right way to do this.

There's just the way of your nervous system. So the work is to be friend your own nervous system and get to know what works for me. You also mentioned breathing exercises. You talked about size, but are there slightly more elaborate breathing exercises we should think about? There are, and again, breathing is an autonomic nervous system experience. It's regulated by the nervous system. And so as we begin to change our breathing, we're directly contacting the nervous system, so it is a great regulator, but it's also an intense activator. As we have gone through life, our body has found a way of breathing that it uses. And there's a good reason for that. And if you have a trauma history, your breath pattern has been created

to make sure that you can manage your way through the world without coming into connection with parts of that trauma history that may be overwhelming. So again, we want to be very careful and dipitone into breath practices as we begin because it can be really challenging for people. That said, yes, in general, a longer exhale is a way to bring more ventral. So changing the ratio of inhale to exhale so that your exhale is longer than your inhale brings more ventral. Resistance breathing brings more ventral and resistance breathing. The easiest way to think about it, I love thinking about is you know, blow through a straw. That's resistance breathing. If you want to have some fun with it, get some bubbles, right, and blow through the bubble wand.

Because in order to do that, you have to have a long slow exhalation and you usually push your lips to do it and it's so it brings a bit of joy to the experience as well. So I just want to encourage people to sort of experiment, see what works for you and don't feel you know like you're a failure or broken in some way if something doesn't work for you. It's just that your nervous system says oh this one's for me, or this one's not for me right now. Again, that this sort of this welcoming experience of there are lots of ways you will find to bring more of mental to your nervous system.

One of the things that I do think is sort of universal is music. And music can be a way that we find our way to ventral, but it also can be a way that we can be with sympathetic and dorsal in healthy ways. We can even enjoy some sympathetic and dorsal through music, right? So think of some of the songs that sort of bring that sympathetic fight, you know, to life, and you can be with, and it feels, oh yes, right? And then think of some of the songs that might bring you some of that dorsal despair or hopelessness, right?

And yet you can be with it and not feel alone in the world. So it's lovely. And then Ventral, what are the songs that just fill you with the many flavors of Ventral? It could be just fun, joy, happy, or it could be, you know, Jonathan Height talks about elevation, right? That experience of awe and elevation, the more self-transcented experiences, it could be that music can take us to those places as well. You're talking about self-transcented experiences. You talk about it in your book as a way to care for our nervous system. Can you elaborate on that? They're based in the nervous system. The nervous system is part of these experiences of awe, gratitude, compassion. Compassion is only possible for us when we have enough ventral energy active in a live

in our nervous system. You can't find compassion from sympathetic, survival, or dorsal disconnect. So again, as we practice compassion, we are engaging with that ventral experience. But I think if we could talk about awe for a minute, I love awe because we have these extraordinary moments of awe. And you might think of sometimes in your life when you had that extraordinary moment of awe. But we also have every day moments of awe. And again, we miss them if we're not looking for them. And so if you are on the lookout for every day moments of awe, you'll begin to find them.

And we find certain environments, bring that alive for us. And so we're called to return to those environments. For me, again, when I'm home in Maine, the beach is an awe environment. I know I can go to the beach and I can feel that sense of awe is feeling small but connected to something much larger than yourself. That's the experience of awe and your nervous system is part of that experience.

And that's available for all of us, available to everyone. Speaking of Maine, I find that one good way to get dysregulated is even in the dog days of summer to put a toe in the ocean. Because it's so ridiculously cold. Yeah, it is. And yet, I will say I love to walk the beach and I walk in the water.

I cannot walk in a beach and not walk in the water. I'm only like, up to just about my ankles, but I have to have my feet in the water. I cannot walk on a beach and not walk in the water. I'm only like up to just above my ankles, but I have to have my feet in the water. There's something so nourishing to me about that. So see, there's a way that you and I, if we were walking the beach, I'd be walking in the water and you'd be walking a couple of feet up on the sand. If you had a coat of armor,

I would go in the water. If we took this as an example and say, you and I were trying to connect and I'm saying, oh, let's go walk the beach and let's go walk in the water. You're a nervous system. We're saying, no, thank you. And then it would be interesting to know how would you then relay that to me. Actually, I'm kidding. I think walking on the beach in the water or out would be awesome. Okay. All right. It's just an interesting way to have a conversation. It's like, oh, it's not that you're saying, oh, I don't want to do what you want to do.

You're not dismissing what I want to do. You're saying, yeah, maybe not what pulls me into the ability to have a true, deep conversation with you, right? Working with couples, you find this all the time. Nervous systems regulate around different things and disregulate around different things. It may be that one partner has this need to be nourished in this way, and the other one says, my nervous system can't do that. That's a beautiful thing to acknowledge, not to say I can't do that, but oh, my

nervous system just can't do that, or at least can't do it right now. Again, a very different experience. So if I'm here, you're correctly, we can get better at understanding our own nervous systems, but also back to that phrase you used earlier, neuroception. Can we get better at reading other people's nervous systems and how? Yes, we can, and we want to be careful about it as well, because we often make assumptions, and the assumption can be wrong. So what I'd like to say is we feel something coming from another nervous system. Then we can be curious about what's going on in that nervous system, but I hesitate to make a assumption about it. So if you and I were having

a conversation and I was feeling some sort of cues of frustration, disconnection. Something is sending me a message that we're no longer in this flow. Then I'm going to be curious about that. I'm not going to immediately go to, oh, I am really bad at this. Or he's really being mean. I'm going to go to, oh, something's going on. I wonder what. And then I'm probably going to name it and say, you know what? I'm just noticing,

it feels like something interrupted the flow we were in. Is there something going on on your end? Because then we can enter into that conversation. I noticed it for me, something happened. I'm going to name it and then be curious. Yes, because people generally don't like to be told what they're feeling. No, please don't. Right? Yes. And so part of this way of connecting is to always be curious. My responsibilities to know what's happening in my nervous system and the be curious about what's happening in yours, not make any assumption or even think I know what's happening, but

be curious. Coming up, Deb talks about what she calls re-storing. She also talks about the role that other people can play in regulating your nervous system and how to understand the vagus nerve, the AGUS. How understanding that can help you make sense of and improve the world. Everyone leaves the legacy. I like Mr Gorbachev. We can do business together.

For some, the shadow falls across decades, even centuries. It is unacceptable to have figures like roads glorified. But it also changes. Reputations are reexamined by new generations who may not like what they find. Picasso is undeniably a genius, but also a less than perfect human. From Wundery and Goldhanger podcasts, I'm Afwahersh. I'm Peter Frankapan.

And this is Legacy. A brand new show exploring the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. To find out what Bear Past tells us about our present. Venus Amon was constantly told to sit down and shed up your the angry black woman. The name of Napoleon still rings out in the petter of the guides who thrive on the tourist trade. Binge entire seasons of legacy add free on Amazon music. Or listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts. on Amazon Music, or listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey there, I know that life is full of challenges, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. A stoic philosopher once said that no man is more unhappy than he who never faces adversity for he is not permitted to prove himself. I'm Ryan Holiday, the best-selling author and host of the Daily Stoic Podcast, a podcast where I break down the ancient teachings from the Stoke philosophers so you can apply their thinking to the problems of modern life. On the Daily Stoke, you'll find everything from insightful conversations to people like Matthew McConaughey

and Gary Vee on how they've used stochicism in their own life, to short 10 minute teachings on how to deal with fear and build better habits. Ancient philosophy doesn't have to be this inaccessible and practical thing. On the Daily Stoke, you can learn how to bring the values of stoicism into your own life one day at a time. Follow the Daily Stoke on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and add free right now on Wondery Plus. What is a vagal break?

So vagal break is the word that Steve gave to this specific circuit. It's a ventral vagal circuit that runs from your brainstem, your medulla, to the Sinowatrial node of your heart, which is your heart's pacemaker. So the vagal break really controls your heart rate. And the beautiful thing about this vagal breaks, well, B-R-A-K-A, like a break, right? It works like

all breaking actions. It allows us to speed up and slow down. And it does this on every inhalation. It allows the heart rate to speed up a bit. And on every exhalation, it then allows the heart rate to speed up a bit and on every exhalation it then slows the heart rate down again. So the beauty of the vagal break is that it allows us to have access to this sympathetic system's mobilizing energy but without bringing fight and flight survival responses on board. So when I need a little more energy to run to the door and make sure the cat doesn't get out, my vagal break releases a bit so that I have that energy to go, do that, and then it re-engages so that I can relax afterwards. So the vagal

break is in a exquisite part of our nervous system, and such an important part, and people often say, oh, Deb, I think my vagal break is broken. And I say, not broken, because on every breath cycle it's working, but probably not working as efficiently as you'd like it to. And the reason we work with increasing the efficiency of the vagal break is that the vagal break allows us to make transitions between things.

It allows us to become active and calm. It allows us to have a conversation. My vagal break releases a bit when I'm talking and then it re-engage so that I can listen. So you might think about people in your life who have a really hard time in conversation, right? The back and forth is really hard. vagal break is really working to bring that smoothness. And again, just like the nervous system can be reshaped, we can increase the efficiency of this vagal break by working with it. How? So again, breath practices exercise

the vagal break. Play exercises the vagal break because we get loud and boisterous and then we have to calm down. Anybody who has kids knows, you know, it can go wrong pretty quickly, right? Kids will be doing that lovely rough and tumble play and then somebody be crying and somebody be screaming because the vagal break couldn't hold them in that place. It went off and then it became anger or frustration. So playfulness, even movement, as we go out and you know walk fast and then slow, vagal break releases reengages. Anything that requires you to speed up, slow down, engage, less engage, active calm, anything that requires you to do this exercises your vagal break. Can you get a little technical about what vagal means? Yes. And again,

poly vagal. Steve's wonderful work decades ago now. And he started this work working in neonatal intensive care units looking at premature babies. And polyvagal just means there are two vagal pathways. The vagus nerve is cranial nerve 10. So it exits your brain stem and moves down throughout your body. And it is the primary component of your parasympathetic nervous system. Right? And so Vegas, cranial nerve 10, has two basic components. It has ventral vagal and dorsal vagal, same nerve. But two very different components and brings two very different experiences to life.

Ventral bringing this safe social connection, organized, moved through the world, and dorsal bringing this disconnect, collab shutdown. So what Steve did was really identify this dorsal vagal experience for premature babies where heart rate gets so slow that death is at issue because the dorsal vagal nerve has taken over and it slows the heart rate.

So when we enter that dorsal vagal survival response, our body goes into conservation mode. Heart rate slows down, breath slows down, digestion stops, everything slows. There's just enough energy to keep us alive. And for premature babies, that was really dangerous. So he was the first one who really defined these two parts of the Vegas nerve, Polly Vagel is these two aspects of the Vegas nerve. As ventral is overseeing the system, so to speak, ventral is in charge.

Sympathetic and dorsal work in the background. Sympathetic does its regulating role of bringing you energy, helping with your heart and breath rhythms. And dorsal's job is to bring you healthy digestion. So that's a system that's in healthy homeostasis, right? Ventuals in charge sympathetic and dorsal work in the background.

It's only when ventral is pushed offline, that then sympathetic comes on to rescue us or then dorsal comes to rescue us. So again, we're talking about a system that's needing to be in relationship, three states in relationship with each other. When you talk about practices to help us reach up our nervous system, change our nervous system, I believe you draw a distinction between bottom up versus top down. What is that all about? The world of therapy has been a top down world for a long time and now there are many more bottom up practices. Top down is using my brain to create change. Bottom up is this embodied

experience of creating change. And really what we're talking about is bottom up has to meet top down. They both have to cooperate again. It's an embodied brain. It's a mind body system that work together. Body brain is Dan Siegel's word for this experience. And really what we're talking about is nervous system and brain are connected and communicating all the time. What I'm talking about are bottom up experiences, but I'm bringing them to life in top-down ways,

because I'm giving people practices to do things to engage in, which is more of a concrete top-down experience, to bring a bottom-up to life. What is re-storing? Don't you love that word? I really love that word. Re-storing. this is the last piece when I'm working with people, as we regulate, we reconnect, we reshape pathways, and then we restore. Because the story, again, emerges from your autonomic state. So as the state changes, the story is going to organically change as well. So this is a good example of top-down or bottom-up. If I'm wanting to work with someone to help some change, have a moment of change, whatever it is they're wanting to change. I can start with the story they bring to me, I can start with the behaviors they

bring to me, I can start with the feelings they're stuck in, or I can start with the state. If I start with the state, the feelings they're stuck in or I can start with the state. If I start with the state, the feelings, the behaviors and the stories will organically change as the state changes. So I discovered it feels like the easiest way, the best way to go is start with state, everything else will change, right? And the last piece is the story changes. And it's important as our nervous system reshapes to explicitly notice, name, write that story, to hear the new story. That's the re-storing process.

That last piece to really put it into language and words, or image art, however you want to story. Sometimes people re-story through movement. They dance the new story, or they draw the new story. I'm a worried person, so, they dance the new story or they draw the new story. I'm a worried person, so I usually write the new story, but it is an important step to really bring that appreciation to the new story that has emerged from the work that we've done to reshape the nervous system.

Sounds like there's a lot of power and agency in that. Yes, there is power in that. My nervous system is going to work on my behalf anyway, but when I can engage with it, partner with it, then it feels very different. I know it's always going to be there for me when I need it. I don't have to worry about that. It's going to do what it needs to do to help me survive,

but I can also partner with it. It becomes a very different experience. When it comes to do to help me survive, but I can also partner with it. And it becomes a very different experience. When it comes to changing our nervous system, and you've touched on this already, but you listen to the book, a powerful lever is community or other people. Is there more to be said on that score? Community is so important and also so challenging because again, we long for connection for actual proximity to other nervous systems, not just doing, you know, this lovely screen to screen, which yes, it's better than nothing. And again, community for you might be 10 people. For me, it might be too. There's no rule. Community is based on the people that you can find to connect with who share your way of moving through the world. For me, community is people who speak

you know the autonomic nervous system language and I can communicate with them around that and I feel safe and welcomed. So community are people you feel welcomed to be with. feel safe and welcomed. So community are people you feel welcomed to be with. You know, in my regulation and in my messiness, that's community because I'm certainly not always regulated. I have many messy moments and community are the people I can reach out to in those moments and I know that they will understand and they will reach back. And community is so important for well-being. For many people, community is hard to find. So many people are living in isolation,

or living with people for whom their nervous system doesn't feel safe, doesn't feel okay. As I become more regulated, I'm drawn to people who are regulated as well. I may have to downsize some relationships. And that's painful, right? We think about friendships. We think about family members who are just so difficult for us to be around because our nervous system really feels in danger or feels dysregulated around them. And we can't figure out how to navigate that. And so we downsize that relationship.

So it's both about downsizing, but then finding the people with whom we do feel welcomed. We do feel as though I can show up in all of my nervous system states and it's okay. And I will be welcomed and the other person will understand this experience I'm having. That to me is community. and I have a very small community, very small, call it my micro community, right? But they are dependable, predictable,

and we have created a communication pattern where if I'm struggling, I can send an emoji and they respond back, they know. So it's creating those patterns of connection that understanding with another person, people, that creates community. And then as we feel safe in community, we then might find our way out into the world into other communities and larger communities. Because if we look at what's going on right now,

we have a world that's polarized. If we look at it through the right now, we have a world that's polarized. If we look at it through the nervous system, we have a world that is so many people are stuck in fight or flight. And then we have a huge group of people who are in collapse, shut down, hopeless despair, give up. And what we know is that unless or until we have enough people who are regulated and can offer that welcome, we can't have these difficult conversations, we can't connect because survival responses cut us off from connection. So finding a community where you can feel ventral regulated and welcome is the first step because then I can begin to reach out to others from that place.

But also in a world where so many people are in sympathetic or dorsal, those of us who have some capacity to stay in ventral, it's like a public service to be out and mixing. Yeah, it's our human responsibility, right? At least that's what I call it. I like your public service. It's our responsibility as humans to find our way, to shape our systems and to offer that. We come to regulation, we come to ventral, but then benevolence is the active use of that ventral vagal energy and service of healing. So it's not simply I get there and I'm experiencing well-being, but then I can actively use this ventral energy in service of healing.

And it's good for you and the other people, and that's the upward spiral. Right. Before we close here, just on the subject of levers that can be pulled to change your nervous system, you didn't talk about the type of things that we get lectured about a lot, like sleep, exercise, meditation, diet, et cetera, et cetera. Are those important? Yes, and it's always an and, right?

Yes, and if we think about, sleep is a complicated nervous system experience. So sleep is important, but if I nervous system is dysregulated, I can't sleep. Exercise is important, but if I'm exercising because I think I should, I may not be getting the nervous system benefit of it. I may be doing it out of a fear, out of a sympathetic drive, because if I don't, something bad is going to happen, and I don't get any nourishment from it in that way. Think about food, yes, you know, everybody's telling us what to eat or not eat. If I'm regulated, I'm going to make those choices. If I'm doing it because again, out of fear, I may decide not to eat the junk food, but then I'm

going to binge on junk food at some point. So again, it comes back to for me anyway. Regulated nervous system allows me to interact with the world differently. If I'm experiencing symptoms of psychological disorder or a physical illness, again, if I can come to a more regulated nervous system, what we're finding is those symptoms begin to reduce and resolve. We're even finding that in the world of chronic pain that as we regulate the nervous system, chronic pain begins to reduce and resolve. So for me, I just keep coming back to what's underneath. What's underneath my eating habits, my sleep habits, my physical exercise habits, what's

underneath it? The research on meditation is profound and amazing. And if you are a trauma survivor, if you have a history where slowing down and attending in a different way is dangerous, meditation is really hard to get to. And so I always start with people just asking them to have a mindful moment, which then micro moments can build,

but a mindful moment. And I like to tell people, ask your nervous system, right? What kind of meditation, what mindful moment is right for you. You know, our inboxes are flooded with five things to do to whatever or ten things to bring well-being, you know, ask your nervous system because I discovered nine of those ten my nervous system says, no, can't do that. And so that led me to invite people to make their own menu, make your own menu of things that you can reach for. And we want to have things that are easy and things that are more challenging, things that take no time, more time, so that we have

a true choice, right? When we have that choice, then we're going to reach for regulation in a way that will move us forward. Instead of feeling, oh, there's something wrong with me because I can't do this. Final question, it's not really a question. It's a prompt. If you could shamelessly plug your book, any other books, any other content you're putting out into the world so people can learn more, I would be grateful. Well, thank you. I'm terrible at shamelessly plugging anything, but I do love

my new book, Anchored, which is the first book that I wrote for curious human beings. My other books, The Polyvagal Theory and Therapy and Polyvagal Exercises for Safety and Connection are for a more clinical audience. And so I love this moment in time when I'm beginning to reach out to regular human beings, because I do think this is time when I'm beginning to reach out to regular human beings because I do think this is a way for every human to understand themselves and move differently through the world. So my website, rhythmofregulation.com is probably the best place to go. You can see what I'm up to.

Debt, thanks so much for coming on. Great job. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks again to Debt Dana. Thanks to you for listening. We could not and would not do this without you. Thanks again to Deb Dana. Thanks to you for listening. We could not and would not do this without you. And thanks most of all to the people who work so hard on this show.

10% Happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davy Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer. Marissa Schneidermann is our senior editor. Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production and Kimmy Regler is our executive producer Alicia Mackie leads our marketing and Tony Magyar is our director of podcasts. Nick Thorburn of Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, I hope you do. You can listen early and add free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry Apple or Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen to add free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondry.com-survey. Hi there, I'm Guy Roz. And I'm Mindy Thomas. Wait. And we're the host of the number one podcast for curious kids and their grownups. Wow in the world! Join us as we discover the wonders in our world.

Or as we like to call them, wow's. The wows of science, the wows of new technology, innovation, and the people changing the world as we know it. Wow, now I kind of want to listen to the show, Geiraz. Ho, ho, ho, ho. Exactly. Join us on our next scientific adventure every Monday, wherever you get your podcast. Or, add free and one week early on Wondery Plus Kids.

early on Wondery Plus Kids.