Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Brené Brown Says You're Doing Feelings Wrong

Episode Date: December 28, 2022

Brené Brown has found that most people are only able to identify three emotions: happy, sad and pissed off. In this episode we explore how better understanding the full spectrum of your emotions, rather than drowning in them, can become an upward spiral. Brené Brown is the author of six #1 New York Times bestsellers. Her latest book is Atlas of the Heart, which is also the name of her HBO Max series. Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston and a visiting professor in management at the University of Texas at Austin McCombs School of Business. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. Her TED talk on the Power of Vulnerability is one of the top five most-viewed TED talks in the world, with over 50 million views. In this episode we talk about:Why she decided to map the 87 key emotions and experiencesHow she was deeply influenced by the Buddhist concept of the “near enemy”Why she no longer believes it's possible to read emotions in other people And why meaningful connections require boundariesContent Warning: This episode contains explicit language, but a clean version of the episode is available at tenpercent.com and on the Ten Percent Happier app. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/brene-brown-436-rerunSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% Happier early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. A male friend of mine once made a funny comment about how his wife, who was also a friend of mine, had helped him overcome what he called emotional imbecility. I love that phrase. His wife had apparently helped him get better at understanding what he was feeling, why he was feeling it, and then how not to be yanked around by said feelings. Now, I'm definitely not accusing anybody listening to this show of emotional

imbecility, of course, but it is worth noting that my guest today, the great Brene Brown, did some incredible research in which she found that most people are only able to identify three of their emotions, happy, sad, and pissed off. In her most recent book and accompanying TV show, Brene makes a compelling evidence-based case for getting better acquainted with the full spectrum of your emotions. Instead of emotional imbecility, she uses the term emotional granularity.

She says, and I fully agree with her here, that the better you understand yourself, the better you will be at surfing rather than drowning in your emotions, and the better you will be, therefore, at relating to other human beings. And given how important relationships are to our own flourishing, this can become an upward spiral. Brene is the author of six number one New York Times bestsellers.

Her most recent book is called Atlas of the Heart, which is also the name of the five-episode HBO Max series that debuted in March of this past year. Brené is a research professor at the University of Houston and a visiting professor in management at the University of Texas at Austin McComb School of Business. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. She hosts two weekly Spotify original podcasts, Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. Her TED Talk on the Power of Vulnerability is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks in the world with over 50 million views. In this conversation, we talked about why she decided to map the 87

key emotions and experiences, how she was deeply influenced by the Buddhist concept of the near enemy, why she no longer believes it's possible to read other people's emotions, why we should believe other people when they tell us how they feel, although she does not rule out the possibility of manipulation in this regard, what she means when she says she has created a new framework for meaningful connection, and why meaningful connections require boundaries. A couple of notes here before we get started. Brene is, in my opinion, delightfully profane. We've chosen to let Brene do her thing and not bleep her, but you should know that if you're listening with kids or if you have sensitive ears, there's a clean version of the episode

available over on our website, 10%.com or on the 10% Happier app. Second note is that we first recorded this interview back in April of 2022. But as the new year approaches, we are reposting some of our best of episodes. And then I should say, when the new year hits, we've got a whole slew of fresh content for you, including a two-part series with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and a two-part series about how to have a saner relationship to one of the most sensitive areas of human life, money. Okay, having said all that, we'll get started with Brene Brown right after this. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself,

this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. I personally love Airbnbs. My friend Glenn and I just rented an Airbnb in Fort Lauderdale. We're going to bring our families down to see Inter-Miami play some soccer. Glenn and I both rented an Airbnb in Fort Lauderdale. We're going to bring our families down to see Inter-Miami play some soccer. Glenn and I both have boys. Our boys really want to see Messi play.

So anyway, I'm really looking forward to all staying in the same place instead of being in hotels where we, you know, maybe run into each other once in a while. I love the intimacy of all being in the same house. It's really cool. Maybe you're planning a ski getaway this winter, or you've decided to go someplace warm while you're away. You could Airbnb your home and make some extra money toward the trip. It's a smart and simple way to use what you already have. Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out at airbnb.ca slash host. When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination.

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when you start your free trial at audible.ca. Hello, I am Alice Levine, and I am one of the hosts of Wondery's podcast, British Scandal. On our latest series, The Race to Ruin, we tell the story of a British man who took part in the first ever round the world sailing race. Good on him, I hear you say. But there is a problem, as there always is in this show. The man in question hadn't actually sailed before. Oh, and his boat wasn't seaworthy. Oh,

and also tiny little detail, almost didn't mention it. He bet his family home on making it to the finish line. What ensued was one of the most complex cheating plots in British sporting history. To find out the full story, follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. I'm back on the show. I do want to say that several of the things you said the last time you were on the show pop up into my mind all the time. So I'm really happy to have you back. Well, thanks. I'm happy to be back. So congratulations on the new book and the new TV show, Atlas of the Heart. Why Atlas? What's your thinking behind the map metaphor?

Oh my God, I'm still processing that you said in TV show. That is so uncomfortable. I just have to take a second and be like, why am I out of my lane? Why am I out of my lane? Yeah, do you see how red my eye, like I'm turning red. Like it's, yeah. Stepping out of your lane requires courage, which is on brand for you. I guess so, but I didn't even put my blinker on. I just did it and I'm not used to it yet. The cartography stuff I can talk to you about more easily because I'm a cartography fan. I love maps. I collect old maps. When I first visualized this book and thought about, I'm a metaphoraholic. So I was like, what metaphor am I going to work? Am I

going to use an epigraph, a quote that really speaks to me? And I thought this is going to be the map book, but this is not going to be a single map book. This is going to be a collection of maps. And so the Atlas really spoke to me like an Atlas is a collection of maps. And I hope what this book does, and I hope what the show does, I hope it helps ground us and kind of tether us to solid ground around where we are, what we're feeling, what we're going through. I think so often in our lives, and mine included,

I just had a morning like this today. It was really hard and stressful, and I had to work through some really uncomfortable stuff. We're always looking on the outside of us to figure out, how can I find my way back? How can I get retethered? How can I get grounded? And all of that, especially when we feel very adrift. And so for me, what the research has taught me is that the anchoring happens within. There is nothing external that's going to offer us a way home. And so I think the combination of feeling untethered personally after COVID, and I don't think it's

after, I don't know what preposition to use anymore, during, between, in the midst of, it's just been a very hard couple of years. And I thought, man, what I'd really like is some kind of map for myself just to find my way back home. And in particular here, we're talking about mapping emotions, as I understand it. And I'm going to quote you back to you. You say something to the effect of there's nothing more human than emotion, but we know very little about emotions and we have very little language with which to describe them. Can you expand upon that? Yeah. You know, probably a decade ago or so, we were running a curriculum based on my shame resilience research. And we asked people to write a list of every emotion they felt comfortable or able to identify while they were actually experiencing it. And I was so curious, I didn't even really have a hypothesis about what that number would be. I guess I thought eight or

nine, but the mean or average was three, happy, sad, and pissed off. I can tell when I'm happy, I can tell when I'm sad, and I can tell when I'm really pissed off. And that has haunted me, struck in my craw. I don't even know how to describe it really. It just, I could never get over it because the human experience is so vast and complex. What does it mean if we have to shove everything we experience into one of these three buckets? one of these three buckets. What I'm really experiencing is resentment or anguish or awe or wonder or love. And I have to just say, I'm happy or I'm sad. Well, anguish and sadness are not the same thing. And bittersweetness and sadness aren't the same thing. And resentment and pissed off are not the same thing. And so I really wanted to try to put together some kind of glossary of the emotions and experiences. And I say emotions and experiences. I'm going to say this right off the bat because there's real pissing match in academics around what constitutes an emotion and what doesn't.

And so just to cover my basis, I say emotions, 87 emotions and experiences. Because some of them actually I know are not emotions. Some of them I'd be willing to go toe-to-toe with some folks on. Others I'm not sure and I actually don't care. I don't even think it matters very much. But first of all, which ones do we need to know? And secondly, how do we define them if we know they're important to be able to label and name? And so it became a really big project. I had no idea. I thought it would take a year and it took four. I want to hear more about the project and the research in a second, but let me just ask quickly, what are the consequences of us not being able to have

this sort of emotional lexicon internally and externally? So in the research, they refer to kind of being able to, with nuance, name emotions as emotional granularity. And what we know is that if we can name something or accurately label it, we are much more likely to be able to ask for what we need, move through it productively. In the case of positive emotion, we're able to replicate and seek more of those experiences. Like, I'll give you two examples. You can have a moment in your life where you kind of walked away and said, oh man, that was cool. That was really cool. And not know, oh, that was awe that I experienced. Those goosebumps, that feeling of being small compared to the world, but at the same time,

my smallness is connected to the world in this inextricable way, that's awe. And if I understand awe, what I know is that these are the kind of experiences, nature, beauty, art, being outside, my dog. These are the kind of things that bring that. And I want more of that in my life. And awe is good. I mean, we need it as human beings. It's such a fuel. And then we can have the experience of, man, that was really cool. I want to know more about that. And that's not awe, that's wonder. And what awe and wonder share in common is a feeling of vastness,

a feeling of being small, but also connected to a world. But the difference is with awe, we just want to step back and watch that unfold. And with wonder, it piques our curiosity and we want to learn more. And so to me, having that language around, and boy, you think we're bad at labeling negative emotion or hard emotion or whatever you want to call it. And we have really no language for positive emotion other than that was good. That's cool. Had some goosebumps, but I'll tell you why it's also important. And this was the thing that was just like, I did not know this going into the research to the extent that I understand it now. Language does not just communicate emotion.

It shapes emotion. It changes. Language changes our bodies, our neurons. And so the best example I can give, and it's kind of like a solid C plus example, I can't think of a better one though, is if I said to you, Dan, can you make me your famous chocolate chip cookies? Like I've had them at your house a couple of times. They're incredible. And you said, great. And you made them exactly the same way you always made them. But instead of using the blue bowl, you use the white bowl. And this time they tasted a little bit different and had a little cinnamon taste to them.

Language doesn't just carry the emotion, it actually changes it. So first of all, let me just go on the record as saying someone who studied emotion for 20 years, I got a lot of it wrong. I was using a ton of the wrong language and some major hypotheses in my work were wrong. language and some major hypotheses in my work were wrong. So one of the things that I learned that was not serving me is I would say on a very regular basis, shit, I am so overwhelmed. I am overwhelmed. I'm so overwhelmed. Well, what I learned in this research is there's a difference between stress and overwhelm. And overwhelm is a very intense kind of stress where actually, John Kabat-Zinn has this great definition, the world is unfolding at a pace that our mind, our neurobiology can't keep up with. What's interesting is when one says to themselves, hey, I'm so

overwhelmed, our body goes, oh, okay, let's shut down. Because the only cure to recovery from overwhelm is actually nothingness. So now when I feel like, oh my God, it's too much, it's too much. I always say to myself now, are you stressed? Are you overwhelmed? Are you in some serious whack-a-mole? Or are you actually overwhelmed and incapable of making good decisions? Like, what's going on? And so now about 90% of the time, I'll just say, wow, I'm stressed. And now I do not allow myself to say overwhelmed

without stopping what I'm doing and going outside and walking. If you're going to say you're overwhelmed, then you're going to own it and you're going to address it. And so there's a great quote in the book. And I remember the first time I heard it, I was an undergrad in a philosophy course. And I was like, geez, what does that even mean? It's Ludwig Wittgenstein. And the quote is, the limits of my language mean the limits of my world. Wow. What happens when we don't have a vocabulary that's as expansive as our experiences?

Hard. It's fascinating. I hear two benefits to the emotional granularity from what you just said. One is if you can name it, particularly a positive emotion, well, then you can replicate it. Oh, that was awe. So now I can seek that out on the regular. And the other is that if we're naming things incorrectly, we're kind of throwing our body or nervous system in the wrong direction, perhaps unnecessarily. I mean, that's 100% right. And if you look at the research on emotional granularity, the correlation is not to just being able to regulate emotion and move through it productively and replicate it. Emotional granularity is positively correlated with really significant life indicators like

positive wellbeing, social connection. I mean, it's a big deal. Again, we're talking about two of the 87 that were just like, shit, I had this wrong. When my kids call and say, oh my God, mom, I'm so overwhelmed. I'm so overwhelmed. I've got a 23-year-old in graduate school and I've got a 16-year-old in high school. I'm so overwhelmed. I'd be like, okay, let's just cut it into small pieces.

What's due when, what's going on? And now I'm like, yeah, sometimes things just unfold faster than we can do them. The only way through this is nothing. Go for a run. Go for a walk. Sit out in your backyard for 15 minutes. I handle it completely different, not only for myself, but as a parent or a partner and

as a leader. We do two-word check-ins. If someone checks in and says, you know, I'm anxious and overwhelmed, as soon as that meeting's over, I circle back and say, let's talk about the overwhelm. What's on your agenda? I've got back-to-back meetings until four. Well, pick the next one because you're going to have to reschedule it. You're going to have to walk away from everything for a while. It just makes no sense. And the data on the kind of decisions we make and overwhelm, they're for shit, right? It's so funny because I used to have this list of speaking requests, and overwhelm. They're for shit, right? You know, it's so funny because I

used to have this list of like speaking requests, incoming speaking requests. And by the end of the first page, I'd be completely overwhelmed. Do you know what I would do? I would just say yes to everything after that, just to get it over. Not to get the speaking over, but to get the list over. Then it'd be like, you're flying out tomorrow. No, I can't fly out tomorrow. My son's got a water polo game tomorrow. No, you're flying out. You agreed to this four months ago. You're like, yes, yes, yes. You said for sure. I said, yeah, but I just said for sure because I was overwhelmed. And I'm like, well, we got contracts now and you're flying out tomorrow morning. Then cry out to the airport. I see some look of recognition in your face here, Dan. I have to say, I don't want to call you out, but just to call you out.

I am fair game for calling out anytime. Yes, absolutely. I get overwhelmed. And actually for me, it's more like, I mean, I definitely overcommit, but it's also like, I'm a jerk and that really hurts. That hurts. I am too. I am too. I don't get overwhelmed and small and quiet. I get overwhelmed and scared and scary. I get intense. Yeah. So I can be a jerk too. So now when I'm really overwhelmed, I'm like, that's it. I'll be out in the parking lot. Don't come after me. Coming up, Brene talks about how she mapped the 87 key emotions and experiences, why we need to be able to name our emotions in order to regulate them. And we're going to talk about some examples of pairs of emotions that often get confused for one another and what the consequences of this confusion can be. Right after this.

I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we delve into the life

of Mikhail Gorbachev. This season has everything. It's got political ideology. It's got nuclear Armageddon. It's got a love story. It's got betrayal. It's got economic collapse.don it's got a love story it's got betrayal it's got economic collapse one ingredient you left out legacy was he someone who helped make the world a better place saved us all from all of those terrible things or was he a man who created the problems and the challenges

of many parts of the world today those questions about how to think about gorbachev you know was he unwitting character in history was he one who helped forge and frame the world today. Those questions about how to think about Gorbachev, you know, was he unwitting character in history? Was he one who helped forge and frame the world? And it's not necessarily just a question of our making. There is a real life binary

in how his legacy is perceived. In the West, he's considered a hero. And in Russia, it's a bit of a different picture. So join us on Legacy for Mikhail Gorbachev. I'm hiring, but where can I find potential candidates? Hundreds of thousands of Canadians with disabilities

are ready and eager to work. Help create an inclusive workplace that benefits everyone. Find the tools and resources to help you hire persons with disabilities at Canada.ca slash right here. A message from the Government of Canada. You talked about the 87, and that is a reference to the 87 emotions or experiences, for the persnickety out there, that came up as part of your research. So maybe that's a good entree to the research.

Yeah, so it was interesting. I wasn't sure where to start. I wasn't sure what was important, what's not important. And so we had this huge secondary data set. So I co-taught a course with Oprah about, I don't even know how, maybe 2007. And we had close to 100,000 people go through this course. And we archived all of the comments.

And part of the course was identifying emotion. And so we de-identified everything, took it through human subjects, and then did a content analysis asking, what are the emotions or experiences that people really struggle to name? And then once they're named, having that language really helps them talk about them, process them, and move through them.

And we came up with, I don't know, maybe 150, I think. Then we brought in a focus group of clinicians. And these were licensed clinicians, therapists who still work in very diverse settings. Therapists who work on college campuses, work in addiction and behavioral health, psychoanalysis, I mean, all over. It wasn't fancy. It was all 150 of the emotions and experiences

in a room posted up. And then they got stickers of different colors to indicate the importance. And they had to answer, when my clients can language this, it helps them move through it. Or in the case of positive emotions, replicate it. When they can't, it causes pain and suffering. And then from there, we ended up with about 80. And we ended up with 87 because every now and then, actually, that was because of interns. So we thought, well,

here's our list. Interns are the best. That's why they should be paid. Here's our list. We'll do it alphabetically because how else are you going to do it? What do you privilege over the other? Like, how do you do it? And the interns were like, that's the worst idea we've ever heard. And we're like, why? And they said, because we learned them through comparison.

So when you taught us shame, guilt, humiliation, embarrassment as part of our onboarding, which is kind of my central work that I've been doing forever, we understood what shame was by understanding what shame wasn't and what guilt was. And then humiliation, how humiliation is different from shame and guilt. And then how embarrassment, which is one of the four self-conscious affects, is different altogether. And so you've got to put them in comparison pods. We've got to learn comparatively. And so when that happened, we added some words that we thought would help clarify the core ones that emerged. So for example, well, schadenfreude. It comes up a lot in clinical work because people feel a lot of shame around it, actually. They're like, oh, I feel so happy that Brene has taken this great fall publicly.

And then I feel shame about feeling happy about it. And so one of the things I thought was interesting is let's talk about Freud and Freuda, which is the opposite of Schadenfreude. So Freud and Freuda didn't emerge from the data, but it's a really helpful comparative tool. Another one that the research team thought would be helpful is irreverent. So, admiration and reverence emerged is important, but irreverent, I thought was an interesting word because it is a very loaded word for people because people have a very natural tendency to connect reverence with church or synagogue or temple or mosque, just religion in general. But then they feel guilty about

enjoying irreverent things. One of the number one algorithm categories on Netflix, so irreverent comedy, irreverent cartoon, irreverent series, irreverent series, irreverent acting, irreverent drama. And so we added some words just to help give color and context to some of the main words. And the headline of all of this, I assume there were many headlines, but maybe the Uber headline was, ignorance is not bliss. We need to understand the map here. The maps, plural. Yes, we need the maps and we need the language. We need the language. We desperately need the language. I mean, philosophy is not research, but if you go back to Ludwig Wittgenstein and you think about the limits of your language being the limits of your world, it's very powerful for someone to say, I mean, just from the work

that I've done for many years around shame, I mean, just the ability to say, I mean, just from the work that I've done for many years around shame, I mean, just the ability to say what I'm experiencing right now is really deep shame, really profound shame. Just the ability to name shame starts to weaken it because shame cannot stand being spoken. Shame works when it convinces you that you are alone. And then when you name it and wrap words around it, and then speak it when I call and say, Dan, shit, you're not going to believe what happened at work today. I am in a shame shit storm. And you say, hit me, what happened? And I tell you, and then you come back and say, oh God, I've been there. Jesus, I'm sorry. That's how I've been.

I'm sorry. Now shame can't hold onto anything because now I don't think I'm been there. Jesus, I'm sorry. That's how I've been. I'm sorry. Now shame can't hold on to anything because now I don't think I'm alone anymore. And that's the prerequisite for shame to work. I have to believe that I'm alone. And so very different than if I called you and said, oh my God, this really embarrassing thing happened at work today. That's like walking outside of the bathroom with a toilet paper stuck on your shoe or something. If I called you and said, can I tell you this really embarrassing thing that happened at work? Would your mindset be different if I said that or if I said, hey, I'm in some shame about something that happened at work today?

Yes. Yes. I would think the latter would be more grave. Yes. Yeah. It's different. We have to be able to name it if we want any chance of regulating it. What are some other examples of emotions that we can get confused with?

Yeah. So I never to this date, and I haven't decided yet if I'm going to use the correct term because I still take objection to it, but jealousy and envy. correct term because I still take objection to it, but jealousy and envy. So if you show me your pictures from your trip to Greece and I'm looking at them and I go, oh my God, I'm so jealous. I'm dying to travel again. It's been so long since I've been anywhere. I'm not actually jealous. I'm actually envious. Envy and jealousy are very different constructs. Envy is wanting something that someone else has. Jealousy is the fear of losing something we have to someone else. So let me say that again. Envy is wanting something that someone else has.

Jealousy is being afraid of losing something we have to someone else. Researchers find that, and I'm not a jealousy and envy researcher, but when I was reading the research from these folks, many of them talked about how envy normally is a two-person experience where jealousy is normally a three-person experience. And it's not just the way we think about it. It can be the jealousy a child feels when a baby sibling comes along. And I'm not losing a parent, but I'm losing time and attention. The reason why I would never say to you, wow, those pictures are great. See, Antarini's beautiful.

I really envy. I would never say that because the problem with envy is I think one reason we stay away from it is it's like one of the big seven sins, right? Like envy is one of those big ones. So I think for those of us, you know, I'm a product of early Catholic school. I wouldn't want to say I'm envious of anything. The second problem with envy is that there is malicious envy. There is kind of benign envy, but there's also malicious envy, which means not only do I want what you have, you should not have had it. And so then I feel like if I'm going to use the word envy, which means not only do I want what you have, you should not have had it. And so then I feel like if I'm going to use the word envy, I have to say, wow, Dean, I'm really envious of your

trip. I mean, not that I don't want you to have it, not a malicious kind of envy, but happy for you, but I'd like to go there too. So I think it's just easier to say I'm jealous, but that's actually not the right term. So there are times, yes, you're calling for precision in language, but you're also saying, let's not take it so far that we have to like tie ourselves in knots. Yeah, I think with the jealousy and everything, I'm like, yeah, I'll go first.

Once it gets normalized in, you know, in the culture, it's just, do you not feel like envious, to be envious sounds worse than to be jealous? It doesn't quite roll off the tongue. It's not the thing we say. No. And then I can make jealousy really cute by saying, oh, I'm so jelly.

Then that sounds really like friendly, but there's no fun word for envious. So I'm going to try to think of one. But those two are hard. Oh, let me tell you one more that changed my life and my marriage and my work. This one was no joke. Like if this is not an example of the power of emotional granularity, I do not know what

it is. So Mark Brackett, who heads up the Yale Center for Emotional Studies, I'm doing a talk with him on his book and we're doing a podcast. And before we go on and I start recording, I say, hey, can I just ask you a personal question? I got a little free therapy here. And before we go on and I start recording, I say, hey, can I just ask you a personal question? I got a little free therapy here. And he goes, yeah, shoot. I said, resentment is from the anger family, right?

Because I really struggle with resentment. And he said, no, uh-uh, not at all. Resentment is part of the envy family. I was like, what? And he was, no, resentment's kind of a function of envy. And then we started the podcast. And I was like, what? And he was, no, resentment's kind of a function of envy. And then we started the podcast and I was like, what? So I think about the times when I'm really resentful, where I feel like I'm in hour 16 of my day and people have gone home or the house is a mess and people are coming and Steve's sitting down to watch the game

and I'm like, you know, just coming home from work and picking shit up everywhere and I'm so resentful. And I'm not angry about what they're not doing. I'm envious that I'm not sitting down. And so for me, what goes hand in hand is my resentment problem and my inability to ask for what I need and acknowledge my limits. But wouldn't that be comorbid with anger on the regular? I mean, I can see them arising.

Yeah, I think they are comorbid in some ways. But I think for me now, I mean, it has really been a life changer for me when I start to feel resentful. And I always know when I start to feel resentful because I start having this big conversation, like planning what I'm going to say. I'm going to say this, and then they're going to say that, and then I'm going to come back with this, and then they're going to have no comeback at all. But now when I start to feel resentful, the first thing I say is, what do I need that I'm not asking for? What do I need like rest, What do I need? Like rest, play, sleep, time away.

What do I need that I'm not asking for? And it's been a crazy change force in my life. That's fantastic. And it does remind me of the researcher, Christopher Germer, who's one of the two lead researchers in the field of self-compassion. He said the preeminent self-compassion question is what do I need right now?

Oh my God, it's so good. And I tell you what, Chris Germer's work along with Kornfield, along with Kristen Neff, I would not have been able to finish this book without it. Yeah, about their concept of near enemy changed everything for me as a researcher. Coming up, Brene talks about the Buddhist concept of the near enemy. She explains why she no longer believes that it is possible to read emotions in other people. And we're going to talk about something that I struggle with all the time, how to give good feedback. After this. Hi, I'm Anna. And I'm Emily. We're the hosts of Wanderwee's podcast, Terribly Famous,

a show where we bring you outrageous true stories about our most famous celebrities. And our latest season is all about the one and only Katie Price. You might think you know her, you might have an opinion, but there is way more to the former glamour model than just her cup size. Yes, this is a woman who's gone from pin-up to publishing sensation. We all have teenage dreams, and Katie it was simple, massive fame and everlasting love. I just wanted to kiss a

boy, just one boy. Well she does kiss a few boys but there are plenty of bumps along the way and when I say bumps I mean terrible boyfriend choices, secret dates with spiky-haired pop stars, and a tabloid press that wants to tear her apart at every opportunity. And she surprises even herself when suddenly she becomes a role model for a whole new generation of young women who want to be just like her. Want to hear more? Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. or listen early and add free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. This podcast is brought to you in part by Audible.

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Listen now on Audible. Can you say more about the concept of near enemy? Yeah. So for my dissertation, working on my PhD, I studied connection and I was able to define connection. I was able to develop this framework for how we connect with each other, especially as it pertains to professional helping, like social workers, counselors, psychologists, but even physicians, doctors, community organizers, nurses. And one of the properties that emerged from the data was this idea of disruption to connection. And I couldn't figure out what disrupts connection. Like obviously it's disconnection,

but it never resonated fully. It never explained what the research participants were saying. Because like, if you reach out to me, if you make a bid for connection with me and I just don't return it, or I just cut you off, you have a lot of clarity about what just happened. Like I made a bid for connection and that's not going anywhere. But there's something that happens every day in relationships, every

hour in relationships, every kind of relationship that just corrodes connection that I could not figure out what it was. So I came across this term for the second time in my life. The first time I was like, oh, that's interesting and just kept reading. Then I came across it term for the second time in my life. The first time I was like, oh, that's interesting and just kept reading. Then I came across it when I was working on the Atlas Research. It's the Buddhist concept of near enemy. It's the Buddhist concept of this thing that masquerades as the virtue that you're seeking to embody or be.

And while it masquerades as this thing, it actually unravels everything between people. And so that became the linchpin for in the back of Atlas of the Heart, the book, and in the show, I talk about this new framework for meaningful connection. And the linchpin is literally the near enemy concept. So let me grab this. Can I read you something? This is Jack Kornfield's work. He says that near

enemies may seem like the qualities that we believe are important may even be mistaken for them, but they are different and often undermine our practices. I just want you to hang on this sentence for a minute. This sentence like, I spent a week doing nothing but just sitting in this sentence. The near enemies depict how spirituality can be misunderstood or misused to separate us from life. Like, the near enemies depict how spirituality can be misunderstood or misused to separate us from life. So I flip over to Jack Kornfield's work. And so here's an example of what he says about, here's a near enemy that he writes about, which I think is a very helpful example. Love. The near enemy of love is attachment. Attachment masquerades as love. It says, I will love this person because I need something from them. Or I will love you if

you love me back. I'll love you, but only if you'll change and be the way I want. This isn't the fullness of love. Instead, there's attachment. There's clinging and fear. True love allows, honors, and appreciates. Attachment grasps, demands, needs, and aims to possess. Another great example of near enemy is the near enemy of compassion is pity. So think about this. If I called you and said, Dan, I'm really struggling, and you listened and you sat with me in it and you said, what does love look like right now? What does support look like right now? And said, offered to take some action. That's compassion, right? But if I told you what happened, you said, oh, bless your heart, you poor thing. That's such a great example of I get off the phone. I think, well, he said something nice, right? But why do I feel so alone?

Because near enemies drive separation. When someone says, you poor thing, or like in Texas, the worst, bless your heart. What they're saying is not I feel with you as an imperfect human with an imperfect human. What that says is I feel sorry for you from over here where that shit does not happen. Right? That separation. And so for me, again, the far enemies are easy. The far enemy of compassion is cruelty

or indifference. You know, the far enemy of love may also be indifference. The far enemies, I get the far enemies, but the near enemy. And so what is the near enemy of connection? Which I didn't even know the question was, how can you put together a framework on connection if you don't understand the near enemy? Because I didn't even think about that construct, but the near enemy of connection is control. It seems like we're making a good effort. But what we're trying to do is actually control something. We're trying to control... For example, I did this podcast and we were talking about Near Enemy, and I did it with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach. And Glennon was saying, navigating a newly divorced and remarried family, sometimes her kids will say, it's hard to have two homes. It's hard to have

this house and dad's house. And what she wants to come back with real quick is, oh my God, but it's actually great. You have two houses and we're only a block apart. And if you get sick of one, you can go, you know, and that's an attempt to control feelings. Because it's hard to stay in connection there and say, that is hard. Because, you know, who wants to be the subject of their kid's therapy? Like, not me. Like, I'm like, I'm so much better than my parents around some of this shit. You can't talk about me in therapy. Like, I've come so far, but, you know, but yet, alas, they do.

But I thought about this, too. As a social worker, it's really important to me, and also as a grounded theory person, it's so important that every finding has macro and micro application. So I think about politicians. I think about like Donald Trump and the people who follow Donald Trump. And you look and you want to say, man, there's real connection there.

These people are dialed into him. They're connected. But he's not sharing vulnerability. He's exploiting vulnerability. He's not being in emotion with, he's leveraging emotion. And so even on a macro level, it fits that sometimes when we think we see connection, but then when we step back and say, God, I don't feel closer. I feel separate. I think the near enemy of control was at work. And I'm guilty of it, man. Like, if one of my kids calls and says, listen, I got in trouble or this happened, I'm like, you know, the first thing I do is, how can you fix it so I look like a good parent?

As opposed to, God, that sounds really tough. How was that for you? I'm thinking, you get your ass upstairs and you email that teacher and apologize for being disrespectful. That's my training. So I think when we talk about emotional granularity, part of it is understanding how we need to connect with ourselves first, and the depth of that connection will dictate the depth of our capacity for connection with other people. I did not know that before this book. I got that wrong.

This seems crucial, so I'm just going to sit in this for a second. Understanding your own inner maps will help you have good relationships with other people. And since having good relationships with other people is probably the most important variable in human happiness, this is an upward spiral. This is an upward spiral.

This is a virtuous cycle, not a vicious cycle. This is a virtuous upward spiral. And so what does that mean, be connected? It seems so gauzy. Just as example with my kids, to know when they say something's hard and to recognize when I'm moving into self-protection, which is self-focused, not other-focused, that I'm missing an opportunity for real connection and love and compassion with my kid because I've moved into self-protection, which is probably going to move me into control.

The second thing that I think that I really got wrong, and I bet I've said this to tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people over the past 15 years, and I've heard many, many other emotions researchers say it as well. We, in a very kind of very fast way, say you need to understand emotions in yourself and others. You need to be able to read emotion in self and others. I no longer believe it is possible at all to read emotion in other people. I don't believe it. Yeah, that seems like an article of faith that we can read emotion in other people. I feel like I've... Yes, yeah. What changed for you?

Because too many emotions or affects present in the same way. And I actually think it's a really terrible hot wiring of connection to think we can do that. And I'll tell you why. I think what we're called to do in the service of meaningful connection is not walk in someone else's shoes, but to believe them when they tell us what their experiences are like in their shoes. And that pushes a ton of buttons because around race, around gender, around poverty, around class, around difference, everything, that if you tell me your experience and part of connection is believing you and it doesn't align with my lived experience. It creates such cognitive dissonance in me that can very quickly lead to

what is my part in that experience for you? It gets very hard, but it is truly to believe yourself, to say, Jesus, that shit hurt my feelings. Oh God, Brene, come on, suck it up. Like you're tougher than that. No, no, I'm not. And I need to believe myself when I say that hurt my feelings and reading these comments or being on all the social media, it's not good for me. I'm not, I can't do it. And I'm living that right now. It's like, I have to keep all these antenna open to do my work, to understand the world

and people's experiences of it. And the cost of that for me is that I cannot be taking in bullshit all the time, hurtful, trivial crap online. And then when I hear someone's experience, when they tell me something, instead of saying, oh, do you think you're overreacting? Or was it really that bad?

To say, because that's control. I'm trying to control the level of discomfort. What I'm saying is my comfort is more important than that hard shit you just said to me. And so, you know, one of the things that was so fun about the HBO special is after I had a total freak out at the last minute and said, I can't do it, I changed my mind, you know, and everything's set up, like we're getting ready, I was like, action. And I'm like, no, I can't. They said, you play football, we'll do the rest, which speaks to me because I'm a big sports person. And I'd already convinced them to bring

in an audience and just let me teach because that's been in the classroom for 20-something years so I can teach. And so what was so funny about that is as I was teaching, the audience kept asking me all these just hard, great questions. And the answer always ended up being either the near enemy concept or the concept of having to believe people. And I got to use film because I've taught with film and television clips my entire teaching career, like from a junior faculty, from a doctoral student,

you know, working on my TA ship that paid my tuition. And so there's, have you seen the movie Chef? I am familiar with it, but I have not seen it. Okay. One of my all-time favorite movies.

Well, there's a scene where Jon Favreau plays the chef who Dustin Hoffman owns this restaurant. He's forcing him to make this food that's been popular for 20 years where the chef wants to make great stuff. A critic comes in and just makes fun of the food. And then Jon Favreau, as the chef, comes out of the kitchen and loses his mind.

F you. And so I played the clip for the audience on the HBO special and said, what is he feeling right now? And people said, rage, anger, grief, embarrassment, humiliation, resentment. And I said, I would have guessed shame because one way shame shows up a lot is in rage and anger. And I said, this is why we cannot read emotion in other people. If we really care about connection and compassion, we have to be curious and ask. We have to be learners, not knowers. We have to believe people. I'm feeling both curious and chastened by the argument you're making right here. and chastened by the argument you're making right here.

Chastened mostly as a dad, because my seven-year-old son, I often accuse him of malingering and manipulating, particularly with his mom. And her instinct is to believe him, and my instinct is to say he's playing you. And so I feel chastened on that front, because I'm probably being an ogre.

And curious, because if you're exhorting us to believe people, are you saying there is no such thing as emotional warfare or manipulation or anything along those lines? No, no, I think there absolutely is. I mean, I think we see it every single day. still seeing the position of the learner, not the knower, and being curious and extending that question that you posed as the big question of compassion. What do you need right now? And if you need this and are not asking for it in a straightforward way, what's getting in your way of asking for what you need right now? So I might be confronted with somebody, of asking for what you need right now.

So I might be confronted with somebody, whether it's a diminutive kid with Oreos all over his face or whatever, or anybody, and I could feel, okay, I'm being manipulated. However, I can drop beneath that and say, there's some need here, and maybe it's being expressed unskillfully, and can I get at whatever is underneath all of this?

Yeah, if our goal is meaningful connection. I mean, one thing I can tell you for sure is that boundaries is a prerequisite for good relationships. I mean, for meaningful connection requires boundaries. And so you can very much say to anybody from our kids to our colleagues to whomever, here's what's okay and here's what's not okay.

It's okay to ask me for something you want or need. It's not okay to lie or manipulate to get it. And if you think that's the only way you can get it, we need to talk about why and what part I might have in that. And if you think there's some kind of unfairness, then let's dig into that and talk about that because that must be what's really going on here. I've heard you do this before where you play act how you would give somebody feedback in a workplace or in this case in an interpersonal relationship. And there are times when I need to give people feedback and I wish I could just call you and have you do it. You're very good at it. No. Well, you know what? I don't know if I'm good. Sometimes I'm good at it.

Sometimes I'm shit. Sometimes I, I mean, you have no idea the number of times I have to circle back and say, I apologize for how I showed up yesterday. I was not who I wanted to be in that conversation. I'd like another shot at it. I mean, I have to do that. I just had to do it. What is today? I had to do it Sunday night,

like with a family member, two family members, three family members, everyone that was on the court when we played. I had to show up because my sister and I should not play doubles with our husbands against our husbands, period. But yeah, but you know what? I really live by this idea that I'm here to get it right, not to be right. I have very little vested in being right. And I have a very high threshold for discomfort. And knowing that about myself, one thing I will always do like in a work context

is we always teach people to give feedback in two sessions. One is I wanna sit down and talk about what's going on, what I observe. I feel like it's something we need to work on together. It doesn't feel good to me. And I'd like for you to think about what you need from me, what my part might be, and we can meet tomorrow again for 30 more minutes. Because not everyone can think on their feet. And sometimes we need to pull back and we get flooded and overwhelmed. And so I don't know that I'm particularly good at it. I'm just, I can do discomfort.

Well, I don't want to create discomfort around holding you longer than your, what I would assume to be very demanding schedule can bear. However, in our remaining minute or two here, I'm going to give you some discomfort because I'm going to remind you again that you are now a TV star. And can you please plug your show and book before we go? Yeah, I'm really excited. The book is called Atlas of the Heart. The subtitle is Mapping Meaningful Connection in the Language of Human Experience. I'm really proud of the book, to be honest with you. It took a lot during a really hard time, but I'm proud of it. And I think it's been useful for me and I hope other people find it useful. And then we decided to

turn the book into a five-part HBO Max series where we tackle in the first season 30 of the 87 emotions and using a lot of film, television, and pop culture clips to kind of dig into emotion. It's a fun way to teach because it gives us a little bit of permission to spectate and kind of step back and watch emotion unfold with somebody besides us. So it's neat. And it's basically me with a live audience teaching and it's weird and different for me. But if you're not doing something that scares you a little bit, what's the point, right? That is a point you have made many, many times to great effect. So congratulations on both the book and the TV show. And thank you very much for doing this. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks again to Brene Brown. Before we let you go here, a quick note from our friends at the

Insight Meditation Society. Next month, IMS is kicking off a new online program conceived by the great Sharon Salzberg. It's called Essential Mindfulness. Every month for nine months, a different world-class meditation teacher will teach a series of lessons on the intersection of mindfulness and a variety of fascinating topics from ethics to trauma to science to interpersonal communication. The all-star roster of teachers includes many people who have been guests on this show, such as Kamala Masters, Alexis Santos, Dara Williams, and Orin J. Sofer. The sessions will be short, convenient, and affordable, and you can view them live or after the fact. You can sign up for all nine months of sessions or just pick and choose the topics that interest you the most. So whether you use mindfulness to manage stress and difficult emotions, improve relationships, increase

engagement, or enhance your overall well-being. These discussions can help you further live out your mindfulness practice. Take it off the cushion, so to speak. To find out more and sign up for Essential Mindfulness, check out dharma.org or click the link in the show notes. Thanks as well to everybody who works so hard on this show. 10% Happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir, Justine Davey, and Lauren Smith. Our supervising producer is Marissa Schneiderman. Kimmy Regler is our managing producer, and our executive producer is Jen Poyant. We get our scoring and mixing from Peter Bonaventure over at Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus meditation.

on Friday for a bonus meditation. If you like 10% Happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Where can I get help hiring people with disabilities? There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians at wondery.com slash survey. slash right here to connect with one near you today. A message from the government of Canada.

Today, hip-hop dominates pop culture, but it wasn't always like that. And to tell the story of how that changed, I want to take you back to a very special year in rap. 88, it was too much good music. The world was on fire. I'm Will Smith. This is Class of 88,

my new podcast about the moments, albums, and artists that inspired a sonic revolution and secured 1988 as one of hip-hop's most important years.

We'll talk to the people who were there. And most of all, we'll bring you some amazing stories. You know what my biggest memory from that tour is? It was your birthday.

Yes, and you brought me to Sade. Sade. Life-size cardboard cutout. This is Class of 88, the story of a year that changed hip-hop. Follow Class of 88 on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.