Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Climate Change as an Opportunity | Bhikkhu Anālayo

Episode Date: February 28, 2022

Today’s guest makes an extremely convincing case that there are many self-interested reasons to look squarely at the reality of climate change. Bhikkhu Anālayo, who is originally from Germany, is a renowned scholar-monk, a faculty member at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies and the author of numerous books on meditation and early Buddhism, including Satipatthāna: The Direct Path to Realization, which has been very influential with many of the teachers you’ve heard on this show, including Joseph Goldstein. This episode focuses on another of his books, called Mindfully Facing Climate Change.This episode explores:The four types of meditation Anālayo recommends for mindfully confronting climate changeAnālayo’s contention that meditation isn’t about ceasing the flow of thoughts, but rather ceasing our belief in the thoughtsThe question of whether individual actions matter in the face of a global crisisAnālayo’s compelling case for a kind of practice called death contemplationFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/bhikku-anālayo-422See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% Happier early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, gang. I don't know if you saw that recent star-studded movie on Netflix, Don't Look Up. It was nominated for a bunch of Oscars. It's about an asteroid hurtling toward Earth and how many human beings, especially my brothers and sisters in the media, go into complete denial.

The movie is often talked about as an analogy for how we're currently handling climate change. I do want to say that I get it when it comes to the desire not to, and I'm speaking figuratively now, look up, not to engage. Climate change is horrifying to think about, especially if, like me, you have kids. But my guest today is going to make an extremely convincing case that there are many self-interested reasons to look squarely at the reality of climate change. In other words, that it can make you happier. As you may know, I'm not a big fan of the eat your vegetables approach, even though I'm a vegetarian. I think it only goes so far to argue that you should do a thing because it's the right thing to do. Often that is a very compelling case, but it helps when you can also argue that

it will make your life better to do it. And that's what we're going to hear today from Bhikkhu Analyo, who's originally from Germany. He's a scholar monk, quite a renowned scholar and monk. He's a faculty member at the Barry Center for Buddhist Studies and the author of numerous books on meditation and also on early Buddhism, including Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization, which has been very influential with many of the teachers you've heard right here on this show, including Joseph Goldstein, who is my teacher and frequent flyer on this show. Today, though, we're going to focus on another of Bhikkhu Analio's books called Mindfully Facing Climate Change. In this conversation, we talk about the four types of meditation Analio recommends for mindfully confronting climate change.

Four types of meditation Analio recommends for mindfully confronting climate change. Analio's contention that meditation is not about ceasing the flow of thoughts, but rather ceasing our belief in the thoughts. The question of whether individual actions matter in the face of a global crisis. And Analio lays out his compelling case, at least I found it really compelling, for a kind of practice called death contemplation, which is exactly as it sounds. So good times on the show today. Just to say before we dive in, I am a longtime fan of Analio's. I've read a lot of his writings, and I've taken some courses through BCBS, which he's taught online. I was really excited when we were finally able to get him on the show. He's a bit of a tough booking, and I hope he comes back a lot. This may just be me. When I first started to listen to Analio's teachings, it took me a minute to acclimate to his very serious presentation.

But as you will hear, he warms up. And in my view, aside from the fact that he is extraordinarily intelligent, he's also really charming. So we'll get started with Bikku Analio right after this. he's also really charming. So we'll get started with Biku Analia right after this. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. I personally love Airbnbs. My friend Glenn and I just rented an Airbnb in Fort Lauderdale. We're going to bring our families down to see Inter-Miami

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hire persons with disabilities at can Canada.ca slash right here. A message from the Government of Canada. Bikku and Aliu, thank you very much for coming on the show. Very happy. So you've written about so many aspects of the Dharma. I'm curious, why climate change? Because I think it's the most serious challenge we are facing in the modern world. And it is important for us to see

how Father Dharma can give a perspective on that, on how to face climate change, how to work with climate change, how to make it part of our practice. I think the Buddhist teachings were from the outset meant to be applied, not set away, sit on your cushion and forget about the rest of the world, but based on the practice on the cushion to be able to meet whatever challenge the world may have. I know you're a Buddhist practitioner and academic,

not a climate scientist per se, but I also know that you have looked at the science. What is your current view of the state of play with the climate crisis? Well, I'm not a scientist in that area, so I can't give you the exact details. But from what I've read, it looks as if we are directly stirring for the extinction of humanity. That by the way we are running this planet, we are directly leading it into a situation where it can no longer sustain human life. And this right now looks as if it could be happening even faster than we expect,

because the scenarios developed by the scientists, as I know myself being an academic, scientists are always very cautious about making predictions. And precisely with climate change, as it is something that we do not really know that much about, they are very low-key with their predictions. But even these low-key predictions are not being taken fully on board in the political scene. And so we are really like two steps behind what's actually happening. And we can see it happening everywhere.

And what we are looking at is unstable climate all over the world. We are looking at raising of the level of the ocean, turning large areas that are now arable into deserts, massive migration. I think the estimate is up to one billion migrants knocking on the doors of those countries who are still struggling, not as much as the others. We are talking about war, mass scale war. We are talking about the whole shift towards right wing because people will be afraid and they will look for some strong person that assures them,

I'm going to defend our country. Loss of food, massive. And not drinking water. Drinking water comes from many countries from top of the mountains, from the glaciers. When they're melted, where do you get drinking water? How do you survive without drinking water? So the overall scenario is making this look as if this is the worst crisis humanity has ever faced in its entire history. And we are not really living up to that crisis right now. We're not really facing it very well.

Just to say the least, that's a horrifying picture that you've painted, and I know you're not painting it yourself. You're basing it on the work of climate scientists, but it's nonetheless a horrifying picture. The temptation, and I feel it myself, even as somebody who's done a non-zero amount of meditation, the temptation is to look away, just to not think about it. From your perspective, now getting back into an area of true expertise for you, from your perspective as a teacher and a practitioner, how can we use our practice to help us both not look away, but in the not looking away, not crumbling? Yeah, you've put it very well, this is exactly the challenge wanting to avoid it not wanting to even think about it because it's so horrible or else then turning towards it and

then getting unbalanced getting really angry starting to hate those guys up there whoever it is but both of these are not skillful ways of dealing with the situation. They are not good for ourselves and they don't lead onwards. They don't lead to a solution. And so what I was trying to do also in my book is to basically bring in Dharma perspectives that are grounded on meditation practice. Mindfulness. Mindfulness is a key. And mindfulness has now spread all over the world.

mindfulness mindfulness is a key and mindfulness has now spread all over the world and it is available in a packaging that is not really dependent on a particular religious identity or institution and mindfulness has this quality she i use she because mindfulness sati is feminine in pali she's able to allow us to be with the unwanted without going to either ignoring or counterreacting, but simply to acknowledge what is there. And based on that acknowledgement, then we can find appropriate solutions. Whether we will be able to find an appropriate solution for climate change is a question that we can leave open. I don't know. There's a possibility. But at least we can put into place the tools required for finding such a solution, or at the very least to build up the resilience that we need to face what's going to happen.

As I understand it in your book, you talk not only about mindfulness, but compassion as the two dharmic tools we can use in the face of this, let's just say, suboptimal situation. Suboptimalist. Just like climate change is a word, it's an interesting way of phrasing it, yeah. Compassion, at least in early Buddhist thought, also relates to mindfulness. It also requires the presence of mindfulness. And what I was trying to do in my book is to match the thing on the four noble truths with four chapters and then also to have four types of meditation practices.

And so one of these is compassion, as you rightly say. I was first bringing in mindfulness of the earth element in a way that we learn to cultivate this embodied presence of mindfulness and to relate to the earth, to really make it a matter of direct experience, how much I'm interrelated with the earth, how much I depend on the earth. And then the second one, also mindfulness practice practice to check in on our state of mind. That can lead to a complete shift in perspective in that it's not just like individual ABC who is doing the wrong in politics or economy or whatever, but that we look at everything

in terms of defilements, that hate, greed and delusion are at the root of the climate change and not particular individuals. that hate, greed, and delusion are at the root of the climate change and not particular individuals. The third one then to move towards compassion, as you rightly mentioned, to cultivate an attitude of compassion, which is importantly not so much about being in pain ourselves. It's an understanding of compassion we had in some later traditions, but compassion is much rather seeing the suffering

and then being inspired by the vision of freedom from suffering, freedom from harm. And the last one, then, the contemplation of impermanence, because what underlies our inability to face climate change is basically our fear of our own mortality. And that is something that we can work with. It's one of my favorite practices myself and also when I teach, how to learn to face our own mortality. And this is something that mindfulness allows us in gradually, step by step, bringing death into our life,

integrating the fact of our mortality into our life, and thereby really becoming whole and complete, instead of running away from our own shadow and pretending that, oh, I'm going to live forever. And then last moment when it happens, like, oh my God, how do I deal with this? That's not the way. What I sometimes say is if you go for a competition in running or whatever kind of sports, you will start not training just the day before. And if you do an exam at school, university, you will not open the books to study in the night before the exam. It takes some time. Death is an exam.

And learning to face our mortality is something we can gradually introduce through the practice of mindfulness in our lives. And the more we are able to face mortality, the better we are able to deal when others pass away, the better we are able to handle others who are facing them, and the better we will be able to face such major things as climate change. You said a lot there, and I'm grateful because you've actually just given me a template for how to proceed with this interview.

So if it's okay with you, I would like to just drill down on each of these four approaches, these four meditative approaches to climate change, starting with, as you said, the earth, which you're yoking in your book to the first noble truth, which is a Buddhist term of art that some of our listeners will know, but it might be worth your restating. Can we start there and then I'll help you guide us through the remaining three? Yeah. So according to our tradition, the chief teaching given by the Buddha when he had just reached awakening, when he had become a Buddha, is the Four Noble Truths. And this teaching is based on an ancient Indian scheme of medical diagnosis. Four in the sense of what's the

disease, what has caused the disease, what type of health can be reached, and what is the medicine required for that. And so it seems that in the ancient Indian setting, the Buddha, as he is reported in the text, on purpose did not use any of the philosophies that were around, but went to the medical field of diagnosis to use something to express his awakening. And so in its Buddhist terms, the diagnosis is des dukkha. Dukkha means that it's often translated as suffering, but that's a bit misleading because not everything is suffering. But everything doesn't really give us lasting satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness. And the cause of our experience of disease, friction, lack of satisfaction,

is our own attitude, particularly craving, greed. However, third truth, there is a possibility of living without craving, without greed. And that's just much, much better. And then there's a way of getting there, a practical way, which is the Eightfold Path, which combines training in ethics with training of the mind in concentration and wisdom. But the basic idea is just that we have this scheme from ancient Indian medical diagnosis applied to what made the Buddha become a Buddha, what awakened him. And that this scheme of for truth, for noble truth, the noble somebody who follows them,

has been since the beginning to nowadays a very central idea in the Buddhist traditions. And so by trying to relate the current climate crisis to these four noble truths, I'm on purpose picking up a centered doctrine that is very traditional in order to see or tease out in what way can it be applied to this kind of modern situation. I appreciate that. Thank you for the clarity. So if it's okay with you, I'd love to hear about each of the applications, starting, if memory serves, with the first noble truth of suffering, which can be maybe like an overly dire mistranslation. It's more like unsatisfactoriness, as you pointed out. And I don't quite understand this. You're pairing that with a contemplation of the earth.

Can you hold forth on that? Well, I think the idea of the Four Noble Truths underlies the way I have been going through relevant Buddhist teachings in my book. And then for each of the main four chapters, I also present one type of meditation. So it is not that each of the meditations is an absolute match to the Four Noble Truths, but the First Noble Truth is about seeing things as they are, to recognize our situation. And so the relationship to the meditation on earth I'm presenting is to realize that we are completely dependent on the earth. We can't do without that. Because that is a little bit,

plays in sometimes our arrogance as human beings, that we are so powerful, we are in control, and almost feels that we don't need this. And now with COVID, it becomes clear like, hey, there's just this little virus. And how it's thrown everything over in the whole world. And I mean, as I'm talking, I am standing or sitting on the earth. And I am taking one breath after the other.

That oxygen is produced by plants that live on the surface of the earth or at the bottom of the ocean. I can't exist without being in constant dependence on the earth. I can't exist without being in constant dependence on the earth. And so what I'm trying to introduce with this first meditation is this realization that we are integral part of the earth and we depend on the earth. So let's not mess up, as His Holiness the Dalai Lama says, we have got only one home. There's no second.

Let's not mess it up. The second part is not what he said. He only said about the only one home. But Let's not mess it up. The second part is not what he said. He only said about the only one home. But let's not mess it up. And at the same time, however, this practice of meditating on earth also gives us a kind of a feeling of groundedness. In fact, the way I introduced it is by doing a scan through the body. This is particularly I found since coming to the West from earlier living in Asia, that for many Westerners, it's very important to, first of all, actually get in touch with their own body. They are usually so much up in their head.

And so just this can really become embodied. And then the way I teach it is to feel the sense of gravity that connects us to the earth and to really relax into that sense of gravity, let go of all our tensions, and also feel supported by the earth and to really relax into that sense of gravity, let go of all our tensions, and also feel supported by the earth. So it's not just about the first truth of Dukkha. The first truth is in there in the sense of realizing the dependency, but there's also a few other tools that I bring in there at the same time so that the meditation is also supportive.

meditation is also supportive. The second meditative technique that you're bringing to bear is mindfulness. We've talked about mindfulness. I really like how you describe it as she. Can you describe in some more detail the sort of nuts and bolts of your mindfulness meditation prescription as it pertains to climate change? Well, the first practice of contemplating the earth would already be a mindfulness practice. It would be mindfulness of the body. And in the standard description of the establishments of mindfulness, it would be one aspect of a practice called contemplation of the four elements. Ancient Indian thought recognizes four basic elements, ancient Indian thought recognizes four basic elements, the earth element, which stands for solidity and hardness,

and then water, fire, and wind, which stand for cohesion, temperature, and motion, as basic qualities of all material objects. And so from that mindful exploring of the body, this body scan is also a mindfulness practice, then coming to turn to the body. This body scan is also a mindfulness practice. Then coming to turn to the mind. And here, the main task of mindfulness would be,

you know, normally when we are sitting at this, those of us who meditate, when we sit in meditating, after a little while there comes some thought and mind wanders off. And mind wanders here and there, and then another thought and another association. The task is to go to the level beneath those thoughts. There's an undercurrent in the mind,

and that undercurrent can be mapped on what early Buddhism recognizes as the three root poisons of the mind. One of these is greed, one of these is anger or irritation, and one of these is delusion. So when I'm daydreaming, if for example I start thinking about nice food, uh-huh, you're being greedy. And if I think like, ah, I said this and this, and I should have said this and this, uh-huh, you're angry. And the third thing is then when the mind just babbles along, just going from here to there without any kind of aim, a little bit like somebody surfing on the internet, not really looking for anything, just clicking here and there. That's the delusion. By in this way making this template of three basic negative mental conditions a matter of personal experience, we can then apply it externally, which is also a mindfulness dimension

mindfulness is applied internally and externally in order to see that certain things certain people do to see that from the viewpoint of defiance I mean for me a very good example was this was a little while ago maybe you remember last year we got this

burning down of the Amazon forest and I don't really look at TV and these things. So for me, when I see some image, it really has a very strong impact. And I looked up on Wikipedia and I saw this image taken from outer space. You could see the whole South American continent. You could see how much of it was on fire. And to see that had a very strong impact on me. And I really had to work to avoid focusing on one particular person,

the president of Brazil, and instead seeing it as this is what defilements do. When you are lost in defilements, you don't understand what's good for yourself and others. And you do such foolish things as burning down the one place on the planet that is up to then was acting counter to the general trend of climate change. So how do we access this level of mind that is beneath the three defilements, the greed, hatred, and delusion? How do we step out of the sort of chatter in our minds in meditation? The way to approach it is through feeling tone. Feeling tone, feeling sensation, vidana, is this basic evaluation of the hedonic quality of the present moment. It's either pleasant or unpleasant or in between, neutral. And this is always there. Like you ask a

question and there will immediately be a reaction in here. If the question makes a lot of sense, which has been the case so far, I'll get pleasant feelings because I think I have nothing. It's nice to say. But if you would ask something tricky and I wouldn't know, then I would get an unpleasant feeling. So when we learn to be more aware of these feeling tones, of just this initial effect, sometimes you might meet somebody you never met.

The first moment seeing that person immediately has a feeling tone. You like him or her because maybe they resemble somebody you like, or you dislike him or her because they resemble somebody, some memories called up. Based on that initial affective input, we immediately have a judgment. This person is good. This person a judgment. This person is good. This person is bad. This person is boring.

We do that all the time. And if we learn to be with these feeling tones, we can use that also at these times of being mentally distracted in meditation. Because the first question then I ask, I'm not getting involved in the actual train of thought. I go, ah, so-and-so said this and this and this. What's the feeling tone? Ha, ha, ha, unpleasant.

Watch out. There could be anger. Let's check. You have this feeling tone like a traffic light, red, yellow, green. It has these three colors. It tells you what's happening right now. And based on the recognition of this traffic light, I can then see, hmm, that thought was probably anger. Why are you angry, Annalie?

What's up? I can investigate. I'm not trying to force the anger out. I'm also not acting it. But I'm just watching. Curious. Hmm. Why did you get angry?

What's up? Just watching. Hmm. Why did you get angry? What's up? Just watching. So I'm sitting in meditation, just say I'm focusing on my breath or attempting to feel my breath coming in and going out. And then I notice, maybe at first I don't even notice, I just start getting caught up in some expletive filled speech I'm going to deliver to somebody who's angered me, or to maybe perhaps be more apropos in this example, maybe I'm noticing anger at Jair Bolsonaro, the president of Brazil, whose policies on the Amazon are leading many believed to rampant deforestation. Instead of getting carried away with my anger, I can check,

oh, what's the feeling tone? The term you used was vedana. Is it pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral? And I can see, oh yeah, this is unpleasant, this train of thought. That mere investigation takes me out of the entanglement with the thoughts and into a mindful investigation of the mental phenomena. The thought could still continue, but we are no longer identified with it. I think this is crucial. You put it very beautifully, but I would just like to add this because there is sometimes this idea that meditation means having no thoughts. No, meditation only means not believing in the thoughts. That's a big difference. There's a very large area of meditative exploration that can take

place when the mind is running here and there, as long as we have this moment of recognition. Coming up, Annalio talks us through both compassion meditation and compassion in real life. And he makes the case that individual actions do matter in the face of the climate crisis, though not for the reason you might think. That's coming up next. Hi, I'm Anna. And I'm Emily. We're the hosts of Wanderie's podcast, Terribly Famous,

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took part in the first ever round the world sailing race. Good on him, I hear you say. But there is a problem, as there always is in this show. The man in question hadn't actually sailed before. Oh, and his boat wasn't seaworthy. Oh, and also tiny little detail, almost didn't mention it. He bet his family home on making it to the finish line. What ensued was one of the most complex cheating plots in British sporting history. To find out the full story, follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Another of the meditative strategies that you lay out for facing climate change without going on tilt or without losing our capacity to handle it is compassion. Now, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but I'd be interested in hearing a little bit more about exactly how you recommend we cultivate compassion in our meditation.

The cultivation of compassion in early Buddhist thought usually comes in a set of actually four different qualities. These are refined to us divine abodes, Brahma Vihara, which kind of means living in heaven while still being on earth in a way. And they're also called Appamana, it means immeasurable, boundless kind of states. Because their cultivation is actually putting the mind into a condition similar to space without any kind of boundaries. And usually the traditional way is to start with metta, which is a form of kindness as the foundation. But here I'm going right for the second of these qualities, compassion, because that's the one most directly relevant to this issue of climate change.

Compassion is simply the wish for the absence of harm, be it myself being harmed, be it others being harmed. It's the absence of harm, be it myself being harmed, be it others being harmed. It's the absence of harm. And it is able to face the suffering that is there in the world because it stays open to that suffering, but it has that positive orientation point of stepping out of that suffering, of the absence of harm. One beautiful passage in the suttas, in the discourses, describes somebody walking down a road. This person is walking in the middle between one

village and another. He sees another traveler. They are lying on the ground and sick. And that is the situation in ancient India that was quite dangerous because these villages are far apart from each other. You don't have your iPhone and can call medical security or anything like that. So in that situation, this person sees that traveler in this afflicted condition and thinks like, oh, I wish this person would get help. I wish this person would find some doctor that can give him medical assistance, get some food, and be brought to the next village. Of course, then the person who thinks like that will also do whatever he or she can

to arrive at that point. But the thing is, the person is not focusing on the suffering of the person. The suffering has been noticed, but we're not saying that, oh my God, must be so horrible, how long he hasn't been drinking, he must be hungry, must be painful. But to have that orientation towards the absence of suffering, the absence of harm. And this is how compassion can become a joyful experience,

even though it faces this pain and suffering in the world. In the actual practice, there are different ways of going about it. One way is a long term of reflection, like may all beings in the world be free from harm and suffering. One can just use the word itself, compassion, or its equivalent, karuna. I personally like images. I work better with images, so it could be like a little kitten, little puppy, that we would imagine and think,

I would wish this little being to be free from harm. And with these tools, one can arouse compassion. But then the thing is to step from active doing to being that quality. It's a very crucial point in the approach that I recommend, that we don't keep generating doing all the time, but we generate that condition, then we rest in it. Let the whole body and mind be suffused by compassion, embodied compassion. And then from that comes the opening up in the different directions,

front, right, back, left, above, below, so that this compassion becomes boundless, like the open sky, unlimited, immeasurable. And that is quite a powerful meditative experience, meditative experience of what we call a temporary freedom of the mind. And that then carries over into daily life, because abiding in this embodiment of compassion with this boundless quality, then when we come into daily life situations,

compassion more naturally comes up as a reaction to any kind of situation. It starts to inform the way we think, speak, and act. In this way we can become an embodiment of compassion in formal practice and in daily life. And to amplify your point, there's quite a bit of scientific evidence that suggests that this is not a theoretical assertion you're making here. There is, as I said, evidence to support that this works. We see psychological, physiological, and behavioral changes among practitioners of compassion meditation and the other Brahma Viharas. While we're on the subject of compassion as it relates to climate change, I'd be curious to hear what you think about the effectiveness or lack thereof of individual action in the face of climate change. We had a guest on the show recently, Jay Michelson, who was arguing, I think with no small amount of evidence, that individual actions like something I've done, adopting a vegan or vegetarian diet, is not going to make a dent in a really systematic structural issues that are creating

this climate crisis. And that in fact, if you want to engage, the best way to do it is through politics. I'm not sure what your take on this issue is. How do we actually apply compassion in the face of this crisis? I think that the situation is so complex that it requires a range of different responses. And I would disagree with the guest that you just mentioned, that there's only one right approach going into politics and everything else doesn't really have an effect. I think each of us within our situation have to find our way of responding. I have stopped residential teachings.

I'm no longer giving meditation teachings residentially. I'm not traveling. I was traveling all over the world before. Australia, Europe. I have courses in South America. No, everything will be done online because of climate change. I have solar here now. I have what's called a heat pump. I have what's called a heat pump. I'm anyway a vegetarian. Now, all of these decisions are reducing my carbon imprint. However, they do not depend on me thinking that I'm changing the world by doing that.

They are an embodiment of my ethical integrity. Even if the whole rest of the world doesn't do it, I would still do it as a manifestation of what I believe in, as an expression of my ethical integrity. If everybody would be acting like me, there would be a diminishment of the carbon imprint of humanity on this planet. We would have less greenhouse gases. That cannot be doubted.

But the thing is that I am not making my personal action dependent on global results, which are beyond the area of where I can do something. I have no control about the whole world. As a little example, our common friend Joseph and I, we regularly go for walks here around IMS. our common friend Joseph and I, we regularly go for walks here around IMS. And both of us have the habit of picking up trash. It's not something upon people, they drive through and they have a little bit of beer and then they throw the can out. Joseph and myself, we both just enjoy doing that because we love nature. And afterwards we can throw away those cans. Our doing that does not depend on what's happening in the rest of the United States. And the impact that those few cans that Joseph and I collect have on the littering in the whole of the United States is minimal. I agree. However, I don't depend on the overall

situation. I'm just looking where I'm right here now. I'm right here now in Massachusetts, I'm just looking where I'm right here now. I'm right here now in Massachusetts, close to IMS. This is the road I walk. There's Lido. I pick it up for a stop. And picking it up is an embodiment of my values. I'm expressing respect for nature.

I'm expressing the need for this kind of stuff to be recycled instead of just being thrown out. Not getting angry at the people who throw it. Not going down, oh, these people should know better where they're throwing out. As I said to Joe, they drive and throw, I walk and take. Very easy. But I'm enjoying it. It's a meaningful thing. And if everybody in the United States would join me in doing that, we would have no more litter on the roads.

So I think it's good to recast what we do without losing the overview of interconnectedness, global, systemic problems. Yeah, being aware of all that, but still, I am an individual. I live in an individual situation. And within that situation, I can make changes. And I can take decisions. I cannot impose on the whole of the United States no more litter. But I can decide that within the sphere of my area where I live to diminish the litter. And the same is with climate change. Each of us has to decide. I'm a monk.

I don't feel it is appropriate for me to go protesting on the roads because of my role as a monk. But there are some people who do peaceful protests that do not inflict harm on others, which I think is very meaningful. Trying to awake people to the problem we are facing. Others are going around giving talks on climate change so that more and more people come to know. There are ways how we can affect others, and there are ways how we can adjust our own situation.

I'm not saying you, Dan, now you're no longer allowed to travel. You heard what Anarjo said. You should not travel anymore. Hey, you travel. That's your decision. I'm not imposing on anyone. I'm just saying for me, I've come to that point of thinking, unless it's

absolutely unavoidable, I do not want to take an airplane anymore. I took a lot of airplanes to fly to Asia. That's where I became a monk. At that time, I didn't know. But now I know. I know that this contributes. So let me try what I can to diminish my contribution.

Not out of a feeling of guilt. It's something we actually don't really have in Buddhist thought, guilt. It's something that comes from this more Western kind of thing. Guilt is not useful. Not guilt, but taking responsibility. I'm here. I'm part of the system that produces this. Let me take my responsibility.

Then the same with racism. Another problem, just to quickly touch on a different topic. I'm white in a country where there is systemic racism. I'm not guilty, but I have to take responsibility. I have to take responsibility for the privileges I get simply because of having white skin. And the same with climate change. Taking responsibility. And then again, the thing is, it becomes joyful. I am enjoying picking up the trash because I'm embodying my values, my beliefs. I'm living them out. I'm manifesting them physically. You really got me going.

Just to say, because I should probably apologize, my summary of the aforementioned Jay Michelson's argument was clumsy. I think he would actually agree with what you just said, that it is joy producing to act out your values. He would just say, don't, and I think this rhymes with what you said, don't be fooled into thinking that lowering your carbon footprint is all that needs to be done in order to address this issue. But yes, by all means, act out your values because the joy that produces can give you the strength to continue to engage meaningfully with this issue. Coming up, Annalio makes a really compelling case for the joy to be found in introducing death contemplation into your meditation practice. That's right after this. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter

Frankopan. And in our podcast Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we delve into the life of Mikhail Gorbachev. This season has everything. It's got political ideology. It's got nuclear

Armageddon. It's got a love story. It's got betrayal. It's got economic collapse.don it's got a love story it's got betrayal it's got economic collapse one ingredient you left out legacy was he someone who helped make the world a better place saved us all from all of those terrible things or was he a man who created the problems and the challenges of many parts of the world today those questions about how to think about gorbachev you know was he unwitting character in history was he one who helped forge and frame the world today, those questions about how to think about Gorbachev. Was he unwitting character in history? Was he one who helped forge and frame the world? And it's not necessarily just a question of our making. There is a real life binary in how his legacy is perceived. In the West, he's considered a hero. And in Russia, it's a bit of a different

picture. So join us on Legacy for Mikhail Gorbachev. This podcast is brought to you in part by Audible. Every year offers us the opportunity to get closer to the best versions of ourselves. No matter where you are on your wellbeing journey, Audible is there for you. They have an ever-growing selection of stories to inspire, sounds to soothe, and voices that have the potential to change your life.

Sometimes we need a little encouragement to truly spark change in our life. If you need something a little more than someone simply telling you to be more positive, check out Don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements. He dissects how people impose limitations on themselves that rob them of true joy and provides a simple-to-follow code of personal conduct to start living life more freely. Get closer to the best you with Audible. Explore a wealth of well-being titles like bestsellers, new releases, and exclusive originals. Listen now on Audible. exclusive originals. Listen now on Audible. You talked about this a little bit earlier, but I've been meaning to go back to it because I think it's going to be challenging for people, but nonetheless, extremely important. So let's

get to the fourth meditative strategy that you're laying out in your new book, which is contemplation. Impermanence. Yeah. Can you say a little bit more about exactly how you recommend we do this? Well, let me take it a little bit from another corner and then come to your question. Let me put myself as an example. For me, I was only able to step up and say something about climate change and then produce this book and these meditations. After I had come to the point where I accepted that everything on this planet is going to finish, in fact, I did a retreat for three months just on this topic,

gradually easing myself into seeing that everything I love and care is going to be over. All the things, philosophy, culture, music, art, everything, finished. And if I'm allowed to give a little detail, there was this image that came up. I really love Michelangelo, and he has this culture. It's very deeply meaningful for me because it's all this. I grew up as a Catholic. It's this Old Testament story of the little David fighting,

and the statue is just beautiful. And Michelangelo is such a superb artist. So I suddenly had this vision of the earth or the place where I am. Everything is a desert. Everything is dead. All trees are dead. And there's just this white piece of stone. And as I come closer, I see it's David.

Michelangelo's David broken into pieces, lying there in the sand. And the realization, nobody anymore knows what is Michelangelo? Who is David? What's the Old Testament? What's Italy? These words are meaningless, because human civilization is over. And just sitting with that until I came to accept it, that was very strong for me.

But that really made me able now to say it's possible to live with that vision of total destruction, total end, and climate change is not going to be as bad as that. It's not going to be everything desert. However bad we manage this, humans will not survive, but some animals will survive, some plants will survive. We had that sometime in the history, evolution of the planet. We know there was a similar kind of climate change, and it wiped out about 90% of maritime species and about 60% of terrestrial species, but some species continued. So it's not as bad as in my vision, where everything was just,

there was just no life. But to be able to live with that vision and to accept it as a possibility, and from that position then to move into action, let me do whatever I can so that this does not happen. And this is, I think, a key, again, about mindfulness practice, that I first have to handle the repercussions of the situation on my own personal individual level and have to integrate them. And only when I have integrated, I am really ready to step out and provide

reference or guidance for others. And the same is with death, which is the same at an individual level. I mean, if there's one thing that human beings do not want to know about, it's their own mortality. So in this setting with also a number of people in your listening to this who may not have that much of experience with meditation, bringing up a recollection of death is a little tricky, because it's the most challenging meditation I know. So first of all, this needs to be a slow and gradual easing into the fact of mortality,

not pushing. It's no use. It's just like, again, the example of a competition. Okay, we don't start training on the evening of the competition, but also when we start training a couple of months earlier, we don't just do massive on the first day. We do a little bit, if it's muscles or whatever it is, and then gradually build up stamina, build up the muscles,

build up our possibilities. And so the same is with death. Since this is so ingrained to avoid this topic, not talk about it, not look at it, it needs to be brought into gradually, slowly, softly. For example, the understanding that this body depends on the earth because of the breath. Hey, I can't be sure how long that breath is going to continue. Leave aside the earth, but just this body. How long are these lungs going to keep moving and getting the breath in?

I can't be sure. Absolutely. Could be just as the 12 of us are talking, next moment, some dysfunction of some organ and I'm gone. And so just slowly, gradually bringing in this element of uncertainty. And when there's some comfort with that, then gradually going to actually imagine the moment of death. Our mortality is something we need to look at. It's there. Never mind what the Buddha says and Jesus says or anybody, the fact that we have to die cannot be questioned. So let us find some way of living with that. And the tool is mindfulness. She can do that.

Mindfulness is that quality which can help us to be with the unwanted. Without running away, without counterreacting, just acknowledging, being, softening, allowing this to slowly integrate. And there comes a point with a lot of practice where there's no more fear of death, you know. It's possible. It's possible to take this type of practice gradually, step by step, to a point where we are no longer afraid of death. Not that we want to die, but also not that we want to

live. It's just like, this is the way it is. But that takes a lot of practice. Is that accessible to non-monks? The question is not whether you are ordained or not. The question is how much you meditate and how much you are able to construct the life that you live so that it resonates with your meditation practice. A busy monk, head of a temple, having to attend to many people, may not have that much time to practice. It's not so much monk or layperson, it's really the question of how much you practice. And if you have been able to find a form of practice that works for you.

Because each of us is different. Maybe for some, what I'm presenting works. For others, it might not work. They might need to do something else. Again, mindfulness is there. She can tell us. As we keep watching, we're doing this practice. Let us say, I learn an alias style of meditation,

and mindfulness keeps checking. One month, two months, three months, four months. No change. I'm not improving. Chuck him out. Try something else. There's this constant monitoring of, is this good for me? Just like we eat some food.

Oh, this is very tasty. Next day I'm feeling sick. I eat it again. Tasty again. Sick. This food is not good for me. Let me eat a different food. It's not about monastic and lay. It's about dedication to the practice and intelligent practice. Let me put it like that.

So I'll rephrase it a little bit because I was being a little bit glib in the way I phrased the question the first time around. For those of us who live a busy life in the world, have a kid and a wife and a business and a podcast and lots of other stuff. I have a hard time imagining. I mean, I try to engage quite seriously with Buddhist practice, but I have a hard time imagining a mind, my mind, without fear of death. So how much practice? I know it's different for everybody, but like how much practice are we talking about here? Well, I mean, I can't give you, I know you like percentages, but I can't give you a percentage here. But there's, of course, a reason why I do not have a wife,

children, a business, and why I recently gave up my professor title at the university and getting down my academic involvements because I want to have more time to practice and more. getting down my academic involvements because I want to have more time to practice and more. But then I also, I need a lot of practice. My mind very easily gets distracted. And so I need more practice to counterbalance that. Let me go from a different perspective. The question is simply in the situation in which we are here right now.

So let's take Dan. He's got a family, children, work stuff. That's the setting we have. And that's the setting we want to work with. No use of thinking, well, if Dan had become a monk living up in the Himalayas, who knows? No. Dan Harris, the way he is in that situation, what can he do? Is it possible for him once a year take out a little bit of time for a retreat?

Question mark. Is it possible for him to make it a practice every day to meditate? I'm not saying how long. I didn't say five minutes or one hour. Is it possible to make this a habit? Every day I'm going to be just like every day I eat and go to the bathroom, I will sit on the cushion every day? Question mark. And then, you see, in the ancient Indian thinking,

reflection and meditation are interwoven. They are not separate. We have this Western bifurcation where we think, like, if somebody is reflecting, that's not meditation. But actually that's not the case. Reflection is also a form of mindfulness. And so is it possible to make the topic of death and mortality something that we weave into dance everyday life?

For example, here in the corner of my room, I have a skeleton as a reminder. Of course, you can't have a skeleton in your office. People will go, hey, what's happening with this guy? But are there little things that we can build into your life so that there's a reminder of death? Just that this thing is there. And then can we see, I mean, there will be some people with whom you can't really approach such a topic,

but there will be others who will be open, finding opportunities to speak about this. Somebody who has just lost someone. Most people react out of fear of their own death and are therefore not able to be with that person. At that moment, can you open your heart and just listen to their pain and be with them? And children want to know the truth, and nobody's telling them. Everybody thinks, oh, children, you have to hide the fact of death. And then the children, they realize there's something murky, there's something unclear, something dishonest.

Be honest with them. Let them know in a soft and gentle way. There are quite a number of ways how we can bring a topic. Once we have decided, and I think death is mortality, it's really the best one. Therefore, I'm happy we're taking that up. Once Dan Harris has decided this thing Annalia said about death and mortality, I want to follow that up.

I think that makes sense. Then there's different ways how we can playfully weave it into the daily life. And if we do that intelligently, the interesting thing is that this also becomes something joyful. You think, oh, death, oh, my God, that means now I have to make this very grave face looking very sad. Yeah, I'm going to die. Everybody's going to die.

It's so sad. No, no, no, no, no. It's not at all the question. In fact, the more we accept our own mortality, the more we enjoy life, curiously enough. Because knowing that I'm going to die, knowing that you're going to die, and we both don't know when, means right now, Dan, I'm with you., knowing that you're going to die, and we both don't

know when, means right now, Dan, I'm with you. I want to be with you fully. Who knows? Half an hour later, you may be gone. I may be gone. If I said something to hurt you, I want to apologize. Because if you die in the meantime, then I'm left with this, oh my God, I hurt him and I never cleared this up.

It makes us become very vibrant, very alive. So it's an extremely transformative type of practice. And you don't have to become a mom for that. Being a mom makes it easier, no doubt. I know I'm a mom. But I think with a little bit of

adjustment, observing, flexibility, there's ways of weaving it in. And I promise it will have major benefits in the long run for ourselves, for others. So transformative. It's well said and very helpful. And I don't have a skeleton in my office, but I do have some painted skulls that I picked up in Mexico for the very reasons that you described. And just to put a fine point on this contemplation of impermanence and death, your argument, as I understand it, is that it has

benefits in our lives as it pertains to the vitality of our moment-to-moment experience, but also can help with climate change and how we engage with that issue. Can you just say a little bit more about that? Well, I think we come back to the point that you made at the outset. Why do we not want to look at climate change? How would you explain it? It's terrifying. It's too big to take in. You know, we're talking about the possible extinction of the species, destruction of everything we care about, everyone we care about, thinking about the migration, the human suffering, the war, the physical discomfort of existing in

whatever weather patterns are going to visit your locale, what's going to happen to my child, all of that feels at many times too much to take in. Yeah. But beneath all this complex situation that you very beautifully described, is there not a basic fear of death? Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. And we know, you will agree with me from psychology, when the mind is in a state of fear, is it able to take intelligent decisions and observe a situation adequately? No, we know from neuroscience that when the amygdala, the fear center, is activated, the prefrontal cortex, the more evolved section, just goes offline.

So fear is not a useful emotion to cultivate when I am facing a challenging situation. when I am facing a challenging situation. Since much of our fear is based on our fear of death, the more I learn to be with that fear so that fear doesn't really carry me away. Same thing about the thoughts. As long as I don't identify, the fear cannot overwhelm me. The better I will be able to assess a situation

functionally, very simple. So my last question is to really take this to a high level. As I understand your argument, or one of your arguments, about applying contemplative tools to this climate dumpster fire we're facing right now, that at the core of it is actually something quite optimistic, which is that there's an opportunity here for our own personal development, even though the overall situation is so dire. Yeah, this is precisely what I see. The situation has a potential, and the potential is that precisely because the crisis is so extreme and so challenging,

it might be what we need for us to really become homo sapiens sapiens, really become wise human beings, to learn that we have to live with each other and with nature instead of against each other and against nature. To learn that we need to shift from power over to power with, to have that shift in global awareness that we can really actualize our human potential. And I sincerely believe in that possibility. I fully agree that this is not the most probable of scenarios. But if we look at history, the way history has developed over the past, what is it,

two or three, four thousand years of human civilization, it's not always the most probable thing that happened. And my favorite example is Alexander the Great from Macedonia. At that time, nobody had even really heard about that part of the world. And this comes, conquers Greece, and then conquers the whole Persian Empire. This is a little bit as if a country like, I don't know, some Latin American country would come and conquer USA and Canada together. It's completely out of dimension. It happened. And our case is not as improbable as that situation. So I do think that there's a possibility for us to mature out of this crisis

into becoming better human beings. Don't have to be Buddhist, but step out of all these ways how we are now harming each other. I just mentioned racism, wars. I mean, you just look at the news and you will get enough examples of what I'm talking about. There's a need for us to be more mindful. I think mindful can be a key here.

For us to learn to live together mindfully, with mutual respect towards each other and towards nature. It's possible, but it depends on each of us making our contribution. Each of us taking a position. Yeah. One potential addition to your argument is that while it may not happen that the climate crisis leads to the next step in human evolution and we become improved as a species, while that opportunity may not be seized on a macro level by humanity, it nonetheless provides an opportunity to us as individuals. It's in line with what I said earlier. I pick up the trash no matter what other people do. Is there something I should have asked but failed to ask?

I think your questions were lovely, and I think we touched on the most important topics. Well, it's a pleasure to see you again. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. I think it's gonna be fascinating and helpful for the many people who listen to this show. So thank you. Thank you. Big thanks to Biku Analyo. I really hope he comes back. Great guest. Thank you as well to the folks who worked so hard to make this show a reality. Samuel Johns, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir, Justine Davey, Kim Baikama, Maria Wartell, and Jen Poyant, and the good folks over at Ultraviolet Audio who do our audio engineering. We'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode. We're going to be talking about humor in what is often quite a humorless era.

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but it wasn't always like that. And to tell the story of how that changed, I want to take you back to a very special year in rap. 88, it was too much good music. The world was on fire. I'm Will Smith. This is Class of 88, my new podcast

about the moments, albums, and artists that inspired a sonic revolution and secured 1988 as one of hip-hop's most important years. We'll talk to the people who were there. And most of all, we'll bring you some amazing stories. You know what my

biggest memory from that tour is? It was your birthday. Yes, and you brought me to Shod Day. Life-size cardboard cutout. This is Class of 88, the story of a year that changed hip-hop. Follow Class of 88 on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.