Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Comedian Aparna Nancherla on: Impostor Syndrome, Anger, Social Anxiety, and Stage Fright

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Aparna Nancherla is a writer, stand-up comedian, and actor. Her new book is Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself and Impostor Syndrome. You can hear Aparna as the voice of Moon on Fox’s The Great North, or have heard her as the voice of Hollyhock on Bojack Horseman. She’s also appeared on The Drop, Lopez vs. Lopez, and Corporate. She’s written for Totally Biased with W. Kamau Bell and Late Night with Seth Meyers, as well as Mythic Quest on Apple+.In this episode we talk about:How impostor syndrome relates to anxiety and depressionProcrastination and how she sometimes feels it sets her up to do  good work, even though she hates itThe difference between standup and therapy in her lifeHow she feels about the word “no”The sometime-burden of representing South Asians in entertainmentWhat it feels like to finally put this book out into the worldFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/aparna-nancherlaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's the 10% happier podcast, your host, your boy, Dan Harris. Hello everybody. At first glance, it might seem a little surprising that the comedian Aparna Nancharla has for so long felt so insecure, like a fraud. She's in the middle of a successful career in entertainment after all. She's a well-established stand-up comedian with recurring roles and TV shows like Search Party and Mythic Quest. She's also done voice work in animated hits like Bob's Burgers and Bojack Horseman. But, uh, Aparna has long wrestled with imposter syndrome, sometimes called imposter phenomenon, that persistent feeling that you're only pretending

to be capable and intelligent, a constant fear that you're going to be found out. She's now written a whole book about this called unreliable narrator, me, myself, and imposter syndrome, in which she goes deep on issues such as anger, social anxiety, and stage fright. And she talks a lot about what she has tried that has helped for this interview. I invited my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, to join us. She has long wrestled with imposter syndrome herself. She's working on her join us. She has long wrestled with Impostor Syndrome herself. She's working on her own book. I thought she would add a lot to the conversation and she did. So here we go now with Aparna Nancharla. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and we are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Pailin,

the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on, so do sit back and enjoy. Brighton and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ch. We'll take you on Zane's journey from Shilad from Bradford to being in the world's biggest boy band and explore why, when he reached the top, he decided to walk away. Follow terribly famous wherever you get your podcasts. Go SoundReal.

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imposter syndrome sufferer. Hello. Nice to meet you. Good to meet another, another fraud. Dr. Bianca Harris, a fellow imposter syndrome sufferer. Hello. Hello. Nice to meet you. Good to meet another, another fraud. Yes. Same. So when did you start suspecting a partner that you were a fraud? Do you have memories of the earliest instances of that suspicion sneaking up on you?

I was trying to pinpoint when mine started. I couldn't think of an exact memory. I think just as a child, I often felt that everyone else in school had received some sort of seminar or instruction manual that I had in and I just constantly felt like I was just struggling to fit in or catch up. I feel like, yeah, that feeling has dogged me my entire life just just feeling that everyone else is somehow privy to information that I don't have. On some level, that doesn't strike me as totally uncommon.

Right. So where do you draw the line between sort of normal insecurity and full on syndrome? Yeah, I guess for me, it really felt like it came out in full force because I started pursuing comedy but had a day job for many years. So when I got my first comedy writing job, I think that was the first time I was in an environment where I was treated like, okay, you're a full-time

comedian and I started to feel like, oh gosh, no, I don't, I think you've made a terrible mistake. I shouldn't be here. Especially because my first writing job, I was like tempting right before that. So it was like a week ago, I was a temp, which is the definition of disposable labor. So to then be like hired as an official member of creating a TV show, I was like, this is something isn't right here. Did you settle into that at some point? Or I know it's still there, but did it improve?

I would say I've started to come to terms with it, especially since writing a book, I think I have been forced to have a lot of stern conversations with myself about how I see myself, but I still think in group environments where I'm comparing myself to other people, which I often struggle with. It's really hard for me not to see everyone else as having some sort of inherent gift or ability that I just don't have access to. Why do you think, given that you've been in your words

dog by this suspicion that you're a fraud or you don't fit in or everybody else got a memo that you were excluded from, why do you think you went into the most insecurity-provoking business known to humankind. I think I would explain that as the way I've made most of my life decisions, which is just that I'm like, okay, maybe this. I'm someone who's been a seeker in many ways. I'm always looking for the thing that will make things make sense for me. I happen to wander into stand-up and that I tried to open

Mike during college and as I tell people often like it went well enough the first time that I had enough incentive to keep going but I feel like it very easily if it hadn't gone well I would have pivoted to mimeing or something else like whatever came next in my little path of discovery. But yeah, I very often been someone who's bad at setting goals. So it's very much like, oh, this seems to be working. I'm just going to see where this goes. I wonder too, though, if at least subconsciously part of the choice, more with acting than

with comedy, but also comedy is that you do separate from yourself. And so in some ways it maintains a barrier where you have this alter ego or persona that shields yourself from the world and vice versa. Yeah, that's a great point because I do feel like when I started writing comedy, it did feel like because I'm an introverted shy person, it felt like a way to translate the inside of my head to the rest of the world. And I think you're right. It's like more, you're giving it through this filter of performance or just in this kind of controlled

planned way that gives me more security, I think, than just having a conversation like this where I don't know exactly what I'm gonna say ahead of time. But then the feedback is on the success of that character and the performance and not necessarily the core of who you are, which if you can't penetrate that, then of course, for most of us, the imposter complex stays alive and well.

Yeah, and I think with comedy because you're going for that one reaction laughter, it also simplifies to just like what is expected of me in showing up, what are my goals and like things I need to accomplish here. And it just makes it very simple and controlled. And I think that may be appealed to me as someone who's often feels like they're floundering internally.

is often feels like they're floundering internally. Be okay, it does remind me a little bit of you as a doctor at times inhabiting a slightly different, maybe like a kind of persona as opposed to your role the rest of your life. Absolutely, it was a place of safety as well. I learned to rely on the person in the white coat. I knew exactly how to be. I even knew how to think with the white coat on, but I didn't give myself the credit for knowing

how to think when it was off or I was away from the patient bedside. So that really messed with my mind quite a bit because I had all the feedback and all the accolades for my performances of physician. And yet I wouldn't let that penetrate down to the fact that I actually did the work. Yeah, I always find it interesting because you'll hear the advice, fake it till you make it. And I've often been like, oh, if I could just embody that more because I always feel like everyone is faking it to a degree, I'm not under the illusion at this point in my life that other people really do have it all figured out, but I do think when people can fake it to a certain degree, it's like you then convince yourself of the performance and you start to believe

your own hype. So I think I've always been more like, why do I need to be so self-critical of my performance? It seems like other people are really into the performances they're giving. I've always had a problem with the fake it till you make it thing. Not that I haven't tried it a million times, just because for somebody with imposter syndrome that's the worst place to be is to pretend,

because you are already pretending. At the same time, I experience and just allowing yourself the time and the space to become good at something, which maybe can qualify as faking it is important to making it. For me, that personally, though, hasn't worked. Hasn't been good enough. Yeah. I don't know if it's maybe a distinction between medicine and comedy, or you also feel this in medicine, but I think I'm always just constantly seeing peers doing things and then being like, I can't do anything like that or, you know, I would never come up with that idea. So ingenious or creative. So I think I'm always finding ways to put myself lower on the ladder than the people around

me. Oh, absolutely. I did that reading the intro to your book. Yeah. Because I'm also writing about in Foster Syndrome mostly for as a therapeutic experience because it really is. You write beautifully and so I was like, oh, I could never say it that way. Oh, no.

I'm so funny because I read so much in writing the book and I would always be like, oh, I could never say it that way. Oh, no. I'm so funny. Because I read so much in writing the book, and I would always be like, this person said it better than I ever could. So I'll just put their words in here, too. I realized I might have committed a bit of journalistic malpractice here by not asking you, Aparna, and maybe Bianca, you can chime in on this,

for just a very clear definition of Imposter Syndrome for people who've never heard of it before. Yeah, my understanding is it just this pervasive sense of feeling like a fraud or feeling like any success or achievement you've encountered has been circumstands like due to luck or just a fluke and you can't really, you don't see yourself as responsible in any way for any achievement or positive thing that you've done and those feelings eclipse any ownership you feel

over your success. Yeah, I agree with a real emphasis on their being objective evidence to the contrary. And that just, it's like you just can't accept that as truth. In the first line of your book, Aparna, you call Imposter Syndrome and Identity. What do you mean by that? I think for me at least it feels like that's the one thing I can count on in the way that I've thought about myself is just my insecurity or myself doubt, which I think feels maybe weird to say, because it's often a shaky feeling we have about ourselves where you're not sure what exactly constitutes you or what you're capable of,

but I feel like that's the one thing that's been a through line in a lot of my life. So I guess in that way, it does feel like a core part of my identity just always be questioning, who am I, like where do I fit into this scenario, what am I bringing to the table that other people aren't and just constantly finding ways that maybe I fall short or I'm not doing something that's expected

of me. So the fraud, the suspicion of fraud and the feelings of self-doubt become what you define yourself by as opposed to your talents or your character. Yes. Yeah, I think it's that feeling because I know this has been talked about before on the podcast, but just that feeling that, yeah, sure, everyone thinks they're faking it, but I actually am. So that makes me a little different.

That's the line maybe between garden variety and security and full-on imposter syndrome, which is I might feel like I'm faking it sometimes or I can't believe I'm getting away with this or that they let me through security at my job. Right. But I don't actually have a bedrock conviction that I am thorough going leave full of shit. Yes. But you are. Yeah, that's the thing I think I'm talking because I talked to, you know, peers of mine about their own experiences with Imposter Syndrome when I was working on the book. And I think it's safe to say everyone has had these feelings at some point in their life, but it is, yeah, the big differentiation is how you respond to them. And I remember one friend I spoke to was just like, yeah, I would just

love to have more opportunities to have impostors in Rome. He was like, I'm ready for the success. Just give it to me. And fine, I'll be humble about it. But I need those opportunities first. I think what you said earlier, though, when you were presenting how the thought process goes, the first half of it involved just questioning the situation, which I don't think is inherently bad. And it shows a certain degree of open-mindedness and almost like metaphysical questions about what it means to be here and find yourself in certain opportunities and it's when we flip over into useless remination and the things

that start to work against us. But I would worry about the people who don't reflect necessarily on how they got there. And you know at times try to check themselves about belonging or doing enough work or whatever that may be. We just need to like turn down the volume on it. Yeah, that's a great observation because I think I always have envy those people for their ability to just not overthink things and just proceed without that caution that I think frames everything I do. And I think I tend to,

like you're saying, get caught up in the existential questions where they come up and then I just wander off on that train of thinking and like completely forget that things are being asked of me and people are like, write 10 jokes. And I'm like, why, how did I even end up here? Like, how are any of us here? You know, and I'm like, that's not what you want. That's not what you want by 5 p.m. today. Just getting back to your carrying this imposter syndrome into Hollywood, which is so fickle and superficial,

not to denigrate the whole industry, but the fickle and superficial, not to denigrate the whole industry, but the fickle less than the superficiality. Yeah, are definitely there. And I know you write about in your book about having a few surgeries, a cosmetic surgeries, and was that all part of an effort to fit in? Did it play into the imposter feelings?

Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, at the time it was maybe I was in my 20s. So I think it's also just the vanity of being like, what can I fix about myself? Like I have just these few things and then I'll be perfect or whatever you're thinking in your brain. But I do think because I was pursuing a career

and entertainment where there is such an emphasis on how you present and the first thing people think when they look at you, I think it did feel like a matter of just career savvy to be like this and this aren't working. Let me just tweak them before I keep going. But yeah, I think it still fits into this mindset of just there is a right way to be, and I'm not that, and how can I get closer to that? To what extent do race and gender fit into this feeling of not fitting in? Yeah, I mean, I think just by virtue of the fact of not seeing maybe as many examples

of someone who looks like me represented in the career path I pursued, I think that often has the effect of both the scarcity mentality where you're like, oh, there's only so many spots for me or like someone who looks like me. And then there's also just everyone you are comparing yourself to is like part of a bigger, a different demographic or like the status quo. And what does that do to your sense of self?

Does that make you want to diminish the things that make you stick out more? Or do you want to lean into them more? Like I think you just are faced with maybe questions that someone who isn't like a woman of color, for instance, face. It reminds me Bianca when I were talking over the last 24 hours in preparing to talk to you about this article that showed up in the Harvard Business Review written by two black women. I think the title was something along the lines of stop telling women they have impostor

syndrome. Yes. I'm probably going to mangle the thesis of the article, but it was something along the lines of, it's not impostor-Russian Drome, they were speaking for themselves, our feelings of struggle within professional context, or not in post-Russian Drome, it's racism. It's the fact that this system, this structure is set up to disadvantage people who look like us. What are your thoughts, are you familiar with this work and what are your thoughts on that

argument? Yeah, I'm fully on board with that argument because I think I referenced that article particularly, but I think just the idea that imposter feelings are an individual level problem rather than just a reaction to the systems that people are faced with is the distinction that I think we need to make going forward in the conversation about in Postor Syndrome,

where I feel like these feelings are not just because of me and like how I was raised or like some formative events in my childhood, but it's also just, we are in systems where you're, if you don't fit into certain ideals, you're told that you're gonna have to like fit in better, like make sense better to keep going here, or maybe there isn't a place for you at all.

So I think those feelings naturally come up with some of the environments that I've been in. I've always wondered about this argument. I agree with it, and you could apply it to plenty of other aspects of our culture and society that there are structural fixes required. Yeah. And it's a lot for any one of us as individuals to make all of those changes. And it does seem maybe useful for people like you and Bianca to come out and talk about Imposter Syndrome

and what can be done about it on an individual level while also pointing to the fact that structural fixes are needed too. Does that make any sense what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. And I also think the tricky thing about Imposter Syndrome is the way, like nowadays it has become kind of a buzz word. Do you have it? Maybe so many of us have it. We should talk about it more,

but I think it's the same thing as with like mental health awareness, where like I'm just afraid of like how everything gets commodified. And it is, it becomes like this trendy thing. Oh, yeah, maybe we all have impostor syndrome a little bit and kind of dilutes the actual conversation or like broadens it

in a way where are we actually changing anything or are we just hooking on to a trend and writing it out? I feel the same way about the term and of course the original term is imposter phenomenon and you could relabel it however you want but it has become so commonplace in post-Sendroam narcissism, trauma. These words have just become diluted so much, but it also doesn't mean they're not real. But I shudder every time now, I say I'm writing about in post-Sendroam because I want it to be taken seriously, no matter what you call it, because for me, it truly has been a significant source of anxiety and diminished well-being throughout my life.

And one that I couldn't label until 2019, but in hindsight, I've never been without it because it's just who I was. And to echo what you said before, no doubt, we need to have systemic change, but the individuals making the change also need to understand themselves, I think, better. My particular path has been to identify roots of my thinking, whether through experiences or just the way

my brain has developed, because for me taking some accountability, which is not to say blame, but just understanding who I am and where I came from, helps me to dissect what is me and what is being exacerbated by the outside, because I can really only change or improve upon what is mine. And once I do, let me try to help others, but until I do the individual work, I don't know how effective I could be helping others. Yeah, no, I think that's very true and a great point. I think as someone who has spent years like working on myself, I've been in therapy and I realized that is, you know, privileged to even have access to those resources for so long. I do think that is, yeah, you can't underline how important it is to also just be aware of what

is going on in yourself. But yeah, I guess it's the lip service versus actually wanting to reform a system. What have you done on an individual level to deal with your imposter syndrome, Parna? I'm quite familiar with all the work that Bealcus done, the therapy, a little bit of meditation. What for you have been the levers? Yeah, my mind is similar,

like therapy meds, meditation, getting enough sleep, exercise, water. But yeah, I feel like I've tried several things that kind of coincide with just working on mental health and dealing with anxiety and depression. But I think a lot of it is just learning to live with these insistent voices in my head and not necessarily giving them the driver's seat every time.

Like they can be in the car, but yeah, but they don't have to be driving. Well, I would love to take me through a moment. I don't know if it's preparing to put out this book or preparing to do this interview or getting up to do a show. I know you're doing a lot of shows in association with the publication of your book

or going into addition for a part. In a moment like that, do the voices still, even after everything you've accomplished, come up and water your techniques for in the moment, dealing with the voice. For me, I've gotten really into sort of bodywork and grounding, like I've been doing tapping, which is tapping different parts of your body

when you're like before a set or something, I'll do that, and you're just acknowledging like the feelings you're having while tapping different parts of your body when you're like before a set or something, I'll do that. And you're just acknowledging like the feelings you're having while tapping different parts of your body and kind of allowing that to help you get them out or just let them not be as concentrated in your brain. So I have found like connecting with my body more as someone who lives so much in my own head has been really helpful with planting myself more firmly on the ground. I don't actually know anything about tapping.

I've heard of it, but we haven't really covered it on the show. Can you say a little bit more about it? Yeah, I don't think I can speak to where it comes from or who invented it, but yeah, because I learned it off of a YouTube video, but it is, I guess it's nine different points on your body. It's like the side of your hand, like your forehead, a few different points on your face, and then like your chest under your armpit, top of your head, but you're just going through tapping these various parts and you just, you'll say things like I'm feeling really anxious,

like say what the thoughts are, like I'm scared. This show is not going to go well. And then as you're tapping the parts of your body, you then go through again and say, I give myself permission to relax or I acknowledge that I've done this before and like I'm good at this. Like I guess it can just be affirmations in the end, but I find it more effective than I have with just affirmations in the past

is something about connecting with your body while saying them seems to lodge them in a way that didn't work for me when I was just like saying it and being like trying to absorb it. Yeah, because the saying of the affirmation can, I don't know what the data are on affirmations anyway, but I can imagine a scenario where just telling yourself something nice,

you're still in your head, you're even maybe even boring in your head, but tapping into something south of the neckline can get you out of your head and use the word grounded. I think that probably is the appropriate word, it can make you feel more grounded. Yeah, and I think because these have been things I've been dealing with for so long, I'm always a little wary when something seems to help because I'm like, it's going to stop working and then I'm going to have to find the next thing. But it seems to be working for now. And I don't know if it's that things stop working or I just get lazy and stop doing them. It could be a combination of both. To me, it really sounds like bodywork is

a sort of a tenet of work with PTSD patients and healing in that regard. And I loathe to say that all imposter syndrome is equivalent to trauma. And certainly many of us have had a lot of actual trauma as might be defined formally, but life is also trauma to some degree. But using the body, there's a lot of data on using body work to actually change processes in the mind, and certainly a response to them, both at a biological basis, and then at higher cognitive response.

So I buy it. However, it works. I think some of the tools that are used for trauma probably could be very relevant for severe imposter syndrome. Yeah, and I think, like I'd be the first person to say, I'm not always willingly doing these things. Like a lot of times I will be in my head

and I'm like, yeah, it's not gonna help if I just suddenly like tap parts of my body and then I just force myself to do it and it helps. So I think I am also always just learning to remember that my brain isn't always like the authority on what I need regardless of what it says. Well, also your brain is doing what it thinks it's supposed to do. In my experience, and I think others, it's probably the same, most sort of acute imposter reactions

like in the situation are fear responses. And so accessing the body is a way to stop that. But your brain is really trying to protect you for some perceived threat. It's just that threat isn't real. It's our imagination, but to try to push away what our brains are doing for us is almost the wrong message. It's almost welcome, but chill out. But the more we push it away, the sort of angrier it gets. Yeah. It's like what Aparna said before you can be in the car with maybe you just can't have a feel.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that. Coming up, Aparna and Nancharla talks about how imposter syndrome relates to anxiety and depression, procrastination and how she sometimes feels like it sets her up to do good work even though she hates it. And the difference between standup and therapy for her.

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Both of you have dealt with anxiety and depression. Do you think that is simply just co-morbid with the imposter syndrome or causal? Or maybe the imposter syndrome is causing the anxiety and depression, or is it all one noxious to and it's impossible to disambiguate? Yeah, I have trouble sometimes distinguishing everything because it's like they all feed each other.

I think they all work together, but I do think being prone to anxiety and depression probably makes me a more likely candidate to experience imposter feelings and to buy into them maybe in a deeper way than someone who maybe doesn't experience those things. I think for me, they are directly related, which is not to say I haven't had ample reasons to be anxious or even depressed on occasion, but I can certainly trace back

imposter feelings to adolescence and certainly academically, and with that came a lot of certainly academically, and with that came a lot of anxiety directly related to test-taking, and it ended up taking on a life of its own after that, but it was generally the same flavor of anxiety that stemmed from my initial self-doubt and problems in whatever academic field I was dealing with at the time, but then the patterns spilled over into other areas of life. And so they had a different identity at some point, but I do believe the route largely came from this place in an unsupportive background with a chaotic household and all the things that don't help when you have self-doubt and strain. But I think personally that it's a major factor in my mental health.

Bianca, you talked earlier about going back in therapy and trying to understand the roots of the imposter syndrome. Is that work that you've done as well, Aparna? Yeah, I think I started to talk a lot in therapy about where I formed certain ideas. So I think in that way, it has helped explain the roots of my imposter feelings lie a lot in growing up in a very achievement oriented household and very productivity oriented household, which are things that I would say are society already laws, but I would say even more so in the household I was raised in, but also just perfectionism where nothing's quite good enough. I think all of that kind

of feeds into these feelings of you're never quite enough for what is being asked of you. What do you think the difference is between perfectionism and impostor syndrome? I think they both feed into each other. For me, it's just I always thought this was just a me thing, but just the feeling that anything you make is like inherently flawed because you made it regardless of like how other people receive it where it's just like someone else can tell you it's really good but you're like, no, I was there when I made this and I can tell you it's not good. Like, I have inside information that you don't know.

I think perfectionism, it certainly doesn't have to exist with imposter syndrome, but it is a coping skill for imposter feelings. And actually, to go back to the question before, is probably more of a direct reason for the anxiety that just ends up fueling a habit? Because you're chasing the drag and like you think you can get there, there is a perfect place to end. Yes. And then the fact that you can never get there is actually more evidence of your incompetence or fraudulence. But you're never going to stop chasing it either because you've had micro successes with it or because you're so delusional and scared that you just have to go after it because clearly that's what you need to be up to snuff with all these other gifted humans that you somehow manage to be amongst

in these fortunate professional places. Yeah, and my career has gotten more like it used to be where I would be in these group environments like a writing job or something where you are expected to show up at a certain time and kind of contribute in a certain way. But over the past few years, I've been self-employed and even writing this book, like I've been making my own schedule. And I'm just, you know, a terrible worker. I would say, if I'm my own boss, I would say, I don't show up. I don't do what's asked of me. I think because I'm chasing that dragon, my chosen strategy is to avoid and procrastinate until I have no choice but to start until the last

minute. So I think I'm both chasing the dragon, but a lot of times just rescheduling the dragon. Which is very common in the Austin syndrome. You either procrastinate or you over prepare. I'm a pro-crastinator as well, in part because I need that fear to push me. And sometimes I do my best work when I'm scared, which is another like unfortunate feedback loop. Yeah, sometimes I'll try to sit down to write, stand up, and I just will feel so uncomfortable and restless and fidgety and hate everything I think of. And then it'll be like the 10 minutes before I've to leave for a show.

And suddenly I'll be like, oh, this is a good idea. And this is a good idea. And I'm always like, how can I recreate that sense of urgency on a daily basis where I, yeah, suddenly feel motivated and like adrenaline. I don't know. I never, never. If you find out, let me know. Speaking of procrastination, you have a chapter called A Night in the Life of Revenge

Bedtime Procrastination RBP. What's that all about? Yeah, so I have a tendency to stay up really late and I think it is because I feel like the daytime to me, whether that was starting with school or something and then going into work life later in adulthood, like, I feel like that is when society expects you to be productive.

Those are the hours of the day when you should be doing creating whatever it is that constitutes your version of work. But then I feel like for me, nighttime is like a neutral zone. Nothing's quite really expected of you. You're kind of allowed to do whatever you like. So I think I'm always fighting with myself to get things done during the day. And then I feel like by the time it gets to nighttime, I think I feel just this big sense of relief that the expectation is gone and like this feeling

of falling short doesn't have to exist for a few hours. So I really just stay up later and later like doing sometimes I can't even account for what I did. So I really just stay up later and later like doing, sometimes I can't even account for what I did, but it's usually just surfing the internet or reading a book for too long, even like after I'm starting to fall asleep, I'll just keep pushing it because I think I'm so grateful for these few hours where I feel like I don't have to look at myself as critically as I do during the day. I just hear so many of the things you guys are talking about, like the procrastination loops, the perfectionism,

the imposter syndrome, the anxiety, the depression, the structural issues, like I can imagine there must be times where you're just tempted to throw your hands up and bail on the thing. Yeah, for sure. I have felt as I've gotten older, just less and less drawn to the markers of success or like ambition.

I mean, everyone says it's like when you get the thing, it's never as great as your idea of getting the thing was in your head, but it really does feel to me like the things I value these days are like spending time with loved ones like being in nature, like things that sound kind of pat but they really do feel like the meaningful things at the end of the day. So I think sometimes my attitude towards work has become like almost it's not worth being too precious about it because it's not the be all and all of who I am as a person or what makes my life meaningful.

I just wonder whether that escape route from the toilet vortex of all the things I was listening before, perfectionism and postures and drug anxiety depression, that escape hatch into that escape hatch into things that actually truly matter your family, the cosmos, whether actually having that steam release valve can make the work better. Yeah, I think that's exactly it for me of having that distance from it. Like I think in the past, I would go existential

and then use that as a way to berate myself or criticize myself. But now, having that distance more gives me just a sense of, this is like a cool thing I get to do. And it doesn't, it's not my measurement as a person, but I think having that kind of different perspective on it actually makes it easier to do the work. Like you're saying. I was lost in so much of what you said that I can relate to the nature thing surprised me. We left New York City during COVID and as a city person, I never realized what I was missing and what a number the city was doing on my body. Of course, if your mind is buzzing like Dr. Katz and that old comedy central show where like the lines

are just, you know, of the drawing. And then your body is tense, like, where do you have to go? Like, what's your escape? And to be honest, mine was just being in my apartment and hiding if I didn't have to be somewhere else. And the second thing is being a doctor and maybe the same as true being comedian,

it is your identity. We say, you probably say I'm a comedian, not I do comedy. I say I'm a doctor, not I practice medicine. Yeah. Because it is an identity. And for complicated reasons, I've had to separate from that identity, even though I also now

appreciated and own it even more, but I have a distance from it that was very difficult at first because I didn't know there was void there, but now just feels so much more balanced and healthy and appropriate. Yeah. In writing this book, which is I think sometimes or a lot of the time, so in comedians write books, it's like humorous essays or it's like a funny memoir. And I think I knew in advance that this book wasn't going to be all funny and it would be petty. And I think that in and of itself was scary to try to write something like that, because I'm like, that's now what people expect from me or know about me. But then while I was writing it, I do feel like the imposter feelings came up so much in writing

it that I had to stop performing pretty much during the entire course of writing the book because it just felt like I was really raw, a lot of the time. And then I would try and get on stage. And I think I would just internalize how the crowd was receiving me too much. So I really had to step away from it. And like you're saying, my identity was so wrapped up in just, I'm a comedian. That's what I do. That's what people want for me that I was like, I don't know if I step away from it,

like who I really am. But I think even in making that decision, which was I think one of the hardest things I've done, and I wouldn't even say the break the whole time, I was just like, I did the right thing, I know what I'm doing, but I would say coming back to performing after taking this long break, like I would say it clarified so many things about like why I do it and like what I get out of it that I had just completely lost touch with before I took the break. So I really think in an art form where it is like very tied to like you have to get up on stage like whenever you can, don't take breaks, I'm just like, no, I think you have to do like what's right for you. and there is no one path that everyone has to conform to.

I imagine too with comedy holding on to some of your anxiety and angst and trauma. I don't know for you how much of that is is fodder for your actual act but maybe you don't want to get rid of all of it. Yeah, I go back and forth on that because I do, I started talking about mental, my struggles with mental illness in my act and it still is like, we were talking about earlier, it's like this polished, more presentational way of looking at it and there is still something cathartic

I find about writing a joke or framing something in a humorous context, kind of look at it differently or take a little bit of the gravitas out of it. But I still think if I do a joke about anxiety on a show, and then I'm really nervous before the show, like it's not like the joke like fixes, like I did the joke, and then I'm like, but now they connect it, and now I'm no longer anxious. They're two different things, and it's, oh, I'm an artist who talks about this thing I experience, but I think it's not necessarily that one is fully influencing the other. They're sort of almost

their own categories. So doing the jokes, the struggles with mental health can produce some good comedy, but it's not that the comedy is that healing in the end. Yeah, I would say at least not for me. I can't speak for everyone, but some people are like getting on stage is my therapy, and I'm like, no, therapy is my therapy. Coming up, Apparna talks about how she feels about the word no and what it feels like to finally put this raw and revealing book out into the world. Deep in the enchanted forest, from the whimsical world of Disney Frozen, something is wrong. Airendel is in danger once again from dark forces threatening to disrupt the peace and

tranquility. And it's up to Anna and Elsa to stop the villains before it's too late. For the last ten years, Frozen has mesmerized millions around the world. Now, Wondery presents Disney Frozen, Forces of Nature podcast, which extends the storytelling of the beloved animated series as an audio-first original story, complete with new characters and a standalone adventure set after the events of Frozen 2. Reunite with the whole crew! Anna, Elsa, Olaf, and Kristoff for an action-packed adventure of fun, imagination, and mystery.

Follow along as the gang enlist the help of old friends and new as they venture deep into the forest and discover the mysterious copper machines behind the chaos. And count yourself amongst the allies as they investigate the strange happenings in the enchanted forest. The only question is, are Anna and Elsa able to save their peaceful kingdom? Listen early and add free to the entire season of Disney Frozen forces of Nature podcast, along with exclusive bonus content on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, or Wondery Plus kits on Apple Podcasts. In the book, you write about something called the agreeability industrial complex. What's that?

Yeah, that to me is just this belief, particularly for women that we should always say yes, or be accommodating or just kind of mold ourselves to fit the situation rather than forcing other people to change to fit what we want. Like that people pleasing, I guess, would be an easier way to say it, but that's something I've also struggled with a lot. And I think as in someone who has imposter feelings, it can be tricky where you're always trying to meet what other people want, but your own sense of being able to achieve what they want

is always under the microscope in terms of like, am I even giving them what they want? What's your relationship to the word no right now? I am very into the word no right now. I love saying no to things. I love canceling things, but I would say, I've been better about not canceling and just saying no right away. That's like what I've been better about not canceling and just saying no right away.

That's like what I've been trying to work towards. If I agree to this thing, will I actually want to do it when the time comes and now I'm better at gauging? No, this is not something I really think I have the capacity for right now or the interest in and I can say no right out of the gate instead of waiting until the last minute. I really admire that. I think that's a big change for me as well and not that great about it yet. But certainly when I do say no, what used to be like, no, is now, nothing cute. And it gives you a sense of power and anytime you can harness that, it fights against this notion that you're a fraud.

Yeah, it's tricky, because I do think sometimes we'd say no, especially in show business or something, you're like, if I say no to this, they're not gonna ask me to do anything ever again, or if I say no to this, and then my peers says yes to this, maybe this will lead to their next big thing,

and I could have done that thing. Like I do think sometimes it feels like maybe this is a stepping stone to something else. But yeah, I think I've reached a point in my life where I'm like, I'm okay shutting down possible opportunities just because you don't have to like see where everything leads all the time. I think I used to be under the impression of, I should be thankful they even asked me. And now I'm just like, yeah, I mean, I'm glad they asked me, but I also just don't think this would be a good fit

on either end. I think Dan is just starting to get that. He may not have in Potser syndrome, but he definitely has had a hard time saying no. Yeah, well, I was just thinking about that. That it's not so much that I was saying yes because I'm a people pleaser because I don't think I'm that much of a people pleaser. It's more that I was saying yes because I'm afraid.

And just what you were saying, Abarnath, I need to chase every opportunity or everything's going to dry up and I'm going to be with the whole family will be homeless. Yeah, that's a very real fear and I think you're always reading interviews with people where they're like, I did this thing and that was the way I met this person and then we ended up working together. They gave me a big break or something like there's always that story. So I think like even with auditioning in Hollywood, you're always like, I'll just give a tape and then who knows? Like you do that for years and years until you're just like, okay, maybe they're not watching the tape.

Which is, some would say that's depressing, but I'm just like, no, it's also a way to be like, take more ownership over your time and be like, I don't always have to be like looking for that outside validation of we recognize your greatness. I'm like I can also find that meaning in my own way in my own life and it doesn't need to be this like external marker of success or someone else giving me the go ahead. What's your relationship to anger right now? Anger, that's a good question. I've been trying to let mine be more, but I would still say

I have a fear-based relationship towards it, and that when it shows up, I'm sort of still mistrustful of it and unsure if I can really let it out without there being like unforgivable consequences. That's maybe overly dramatic, but I'm always just skeptical anger can be like a healthier, useful emotion, even though I know that it is just as important as the other ones. Just a few more questions for me and these involve me quoting you back to you. So I'm going to quote you and then when I stop, maybe you can say a little bit about it. You write, sometimes I wish I didn't have to address my identity at all. It's not like when I wake up in the morning,

I think, just another day of being a quiet South Asian American woman in a culture dominated by whiteness, better live my truth. But then you go on to say that like in many ways you represent more than just yourself. Can you say a little bit more about that? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a push and pull. I think whenever you embody maybe a more marginalized identity

or something that people don't see as often, you are maybe being analyzed or scrutinized in a way that someone who doesn't fit that mold is. But at the same time, I think you're still a person with the three-dimensionality that comes with that. So I think you're still a person with the three dimensionality that comes with that. So sometimes you just want to be a person first. So I think it's constantly wrestling with that back and forth. Oh, people are perceiving me in this specific way, but sometimes I just don't want to have to worry about that or even think about it at all.

Yeah, I've friend who talked, I've mentioned this on the show before, so I apologize to anybody who remembers me saying this and I apologize for the repetition, but I have a friend, Kiana, she's achieved a lot of success in television news and she talks a little bit about the tax that black women pay, who may probably true for women or anybody of color.

And the tax is that she's not just striving for success for herself. It's like she's carrying her race and gender along for the ride. Does that resonate with you? Yeah, I mean, it does. And then again, the imposter feelings come in where I'm like, yeah, but I'm not the like right version of what people want when they want like the representation. Like I don't have that broad appeal or something of like a minedie caling or something but I yeah you know I'll have a lot of young South Asian women of color be like you're the reason I do comedy or like when I saw you perform I realized it was something I could pursue and I still have trouble sometimes like being able to really accept that or internalize

that notion that I represented something to them that made them feel empowered in some way. Because I think for me, I just, I often feel so outside of any group like internally, like regardless of external identity that I just forget sometimes that those are markers that other people really go by. I was having dinner with some female friends last night, their friends of both of ours, but I was only one at the dinner of this marriage. And one of the women at the table

was actually been on the show before, was talking about something similar to you, that she was saying that people come up to her and praise her and she gets awkward and she's learned to just say thank you. Yeah, I'm always very grateful when that happens and try to be gracious, but then I also talk about being fairly socially awkward in my act and like shy. So usually then they'll be the one who'll have to end the interaction where they'll be like, okay, I know you're uncomfortable. So I'm going to leave it there. And like, thank you. I'm glad I've advertised that enough that people don't feel the need to drag it out. Let me wrap up on this quote in the book. You write, I wanted to

write this book to fix my impor syndrome, but that's saying I'm going to sleep my way through this plate of food. So we touched on this a little bit earlier, but I think it's wise to go back to it at this point. Like, you've written the book. You're just starting the process of getting out in the world and talking about it. Where are you with your impostor syndrome now? I think it's a, it's thankfully because I've gone through a lot of agonizing moments of really questioning the book, questioning myself, questioning everything, but I think I'm finally

at a place where you hope to be sometimes as an artist where you put something out into the world or you're kind of like, you know, you realize you can no longer tweak something or really qualify it anymore. And it's not really my job anymore to really keep how my book is taken in or what happens from this point on. Like it's a little bit out of my hands and just embracing like being able to have it done

and be moving on the next thing and not be in the myths of the turmoil of creating it. I have found some freedom there. It started as what's next, like uncertainty about the future, but now it's okay, this is a snapshot from a certain point in my life that I created and I'm excited to talk to people about it.

And I'm not thankfully as worried as I used to be about how is it going to do? And how successful will it be? Obviously, those are on my mind. But I think I'm at this point that's not going to end of the day to determine how I feel about having done it and created it and put it out in the world. I certainly appreciate that you did.

Thanks. And I'm that you did. Thanks. And I'm sure you're better off for it. The writing process is hard, but super therapeutic. And it will be for other people reading it as well. I have two little questions I was asking closing. One is, is there something I should have asked, but I failed to ask. Oh, I don't think so.

Please say something. Give me my complex. I feel like you were very thorough. I feel like you touched on all the elements that came forward. Okay, then I'll ask my actual last question, which is, can you please shamelessly plug your book and anything else you've put out into the world you want people to know about? Sure. I will plug the book. I'm not going to plug anything else just because there's a strike

and I don't want to mess up any of those things. But I, yes, the book is called Unreliable, narrator, me, myself, and imposter syndrome. And then I will also be doing some East Coast, West Coast, Midwest tour dates. Once the book comes out. So all of that information is available at my website at parnacomedy.com slash shows. I think that's the spiel. We'll put the links, the tour links, the Amazon links, all that stuff in the show notes. Aparna and Charla really appreciate your times. It was really nice to talk to you. Yeah, thank you, Aparna.

Thanks. Thanks again to Aparna and Charla and you can check her out on her book tour which will be mostly stand up. She says, this fall all the dates are on aparna-comedy.com. Thanks very much to you for listening to this show. We cannot and would not do it without you. I genuinely appreciate it. And thanks most of all to everybody who works so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Tara Anderson, Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davie

and Lauren Smith. DJ Casimir is our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor, and Kimmy Regler is our executive producer, scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands, wrote our theme, check out the new Islands record, just came out, very, very good. We'll see you all on Monday for a brand new episode, a bit of a departure for us. Naomi Klein is coming on, she talks generally about things like politics and capitalism and climate change. And we talk a little bit about that stuff, but she's written a new book that's very memoirish and really gets into some of the issues that we talk about a lot on this

show, like how to stay sane in the online world, the ephemeral nature of the self, et cetera, et cetera. Fasc cetera, fascinating conversation that's coming up on Monday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. We can't see tomorrow, but we can hear it. And it sounds like a wind farm powering homes across the country.

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