Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Comedian Sarah Cooper On: Humiliation, Perfectionism, and Taking Chances

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

VOTE for us in the Signal Awards: Best Host, Best Health & Wellness Podcast, Best Self-Improvement & Self-Help PodcastShe also roasts me mercilessly. This one's really fun.Sarah Cooper is a writer and comedian who has over 3.3 million followers across social media. She is the author of the new book Foolish: Tales of Assimilation, Determination, and Humiliation. She is the star of the hit Netflix comedy special, Sarah Cooper: Everything’s Fine. Her current projects include Unfrosted, an upcoming Netflix comedy written by, directed by, and starring Jerry Seinfeld.In this episode we talk about:Perfectionism and impostor syndromeThe relationship between loving your family and loving yourselfSarah’s viral President Trump lip synch videosWhy it’s “nice to be in hell”How to move on from past mistakesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/sarah-cooperSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast, Dan Harris. Heads up gang, we've got a handful of seats left for the meditation party retreat that I'm doing with the Seven A. Celacii and Jeff Warren on October 13th through 15th at Omega, which is in Rhineback, New York, almost sold out, so move fast. There are plenty of tickets, however, left for the live stream. If you can't make it in person, we'll put links in the show notes. All right, now to today's episode. Perhaps never have I had a guest mess with me as much as this one in an awesome and hilarious way, of course. So who is this guest?

Remember those videos that went viral during the pandemic where a female comedian lip-synced to Donald Trump, her impression of the former president or maybe a better way to describe it would be her interpretive dance seemed to perfectly capture the inanity, the preening and the duplicity of the man. The comedian in question was Sarah Cooper

and those videos catapulted her to fame, which turned out to be complicated. She suddenly got pretty much everything she thought she wanted professionally. She met her entertainment heroes. She got a Netflix special, a role in a movie, and then she somehow developed an ill-advised crush on Jerry Seinfeld, more on that in the interview. However, all of this forced her to reckon with her complex past, which included growing up in America as a Jamaican immigrant, a complicated relationship to race, a pair of divorces,

and her time spent working at Google. Oh, and also a fierce case of imposter syndrome, perfectionism, and fear of failure. Sarah Cooper has just written a whole memoir called Foolish, Tales of Assimilation, Determination and Humiliation. I really think you're gonna like this interview, so enjoy it. One other note before we dive in here, just a quick heads up that this conversation includes

mentions of suicide. Oh, and there may be a few stray background noises. Sorry about that. Bosch Legacy returns, now streaming. Matt has been taken. Oh God. His daughter. He's in the hands of a madman. What are the police have been looking for me? But nothing can stop a father. We want to find her just as much as you do.

I doubt that very much. From doing what the law can't. And we have to do this about way. You have to. I don't. Bosch Legacy. Watch the new season now streaming exclusively on FreeVee. Emily, do you remember when One Direction called it a day?

I think you'll find there are still many people who can't talk about it. Well, luckily, we can. A lot, because our new season of terribly famous is all about the first One Directioner to go it alone. Zayn Malik. We'll take you on Zayn's journey from Shilad from Bradford to being in the world's biggest boy band and explore why, when he reached the top, he decided to walk away.

Follow terribly famous wherever you get your podcasts. Go SoundReal. At least, is a journalist that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happen in my childhood bedroom, But ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago, when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too. Including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. And it gets even stranger. It just so happens

that the alleged ghost haunted my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother. It was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. From wandering in Pineapple Street Studios comes ghost story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Go Story on the Wondry app wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes at free right now by joining Wondry Plus. Sarah Cooper, welcome to the show. Oh my God, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

I appreciate that. Although I do have to point out that you say in your book and I'm quoting here, I can't stand white guys with podcasts. So is this going to be tough for both of us? Are you white? Oh my god, I asked them specifically if you were white and they were like we're not sure and I was like, let me take a chance and I I guess I made a mistake, but you know what? It's okay. It's okay. Dan, it's okay.

I'll try not to be the typical white guy with the podcast, but if I step over the line in some way, you'll just, you know, please, you have permission to tell me. Okay, I'll try to keep an eye out for that, but you seem like a very professional guy. So, very professional. Yes, I try to be professional in my good days, for sure. All right, let's talk about your book.

So many fascinating things in there, and it doesn't take a super close reader to see that there are these huge themes of imposter syndrome and perfectionism and fear of failure that like, course through the whole thing. What do you think are the roots of all of that for you? Well, I recently learned actually that the roots of it are competition and jealousy, to be honest with you. I just did a play. I was an off-roadway play written by Anna Ziegler,

directed by Barry Ellstein. It was a really great experience, but I'd never been in an ensemble like that before. So it was just five of us in this cast. And I didn't realize until the play was completely over how I was literally competing with every single person in that cast. Even my scene partner who was playing my husband, I felt myself wanting to win the scene, wanting to be the one who was taking all the attention

and that sort of competition at Google, they want you to be competitive. They call us individual contributors. They stack rank us against each other. And so that is the goal for you to be as competitive with each other as possible. And I thought I was a collaborative person, but it turns out I actually really wanted to just be the star.

And so because of that need to compete, I often told myself I was an introvert and told myself that I had trouble speaking because, and I realized now that it was because I was just scared that I wasn't as good as everyone else. So I held myself back because I didn't want to lose. I didn't want to lose the competition in my head. I don't know, it's kind of put up on a pedestal to have imposter syndrome now,

but taking yourself out of competition just because you're scared to lose, like not playing, because you don't want to lose. It's just, it's like my dad. My dad refused us to play Wordal. Me and my sisters and I, we all play Whartle, we have a great time, but he won't even learn it because I think he's scared that he won't win every day. You know? It's pretty deep, right Dan?

I think it is. I mean, I'm impressed actually. Like, where do you think you arrived at that insight? Which one? Which one of those many insights? Well, it sounds like you just did a play, and you realize in the course of doing that play, that at the root of much of

what's been torturing you for the last couple of decades, is this desire to win that you're stifling in some ways by refusing to play? Yeah. That seems like a really big insight. Did that come about in therapy? Did it come about just because it hit you? I think a combination of therapy and edibles,

to be honest with you. Because I believe you. I'm laughing not because I'm making fun of you just because it sounds right. It was the very last night of the play. It was a rap party. We were all sitting around having pizza. I'd abstained from edibles throughout the whole show,

but that night was the first time I decided to take an edible while I was around my castmates and the writer. And they started talking about different lines in the play and which ones got a laugh and which ones did well. And I felt it like coursing through my veins, how jealous I was of every single person in that cast, how I wanted to be each of them. And how I thought they were all better than me. And that's when it really

hit me how competitive I am. And I was sort of treated like the golden child of my family. And so when I am in a group of people, it's easier for me to check out than to realize that I'm not the golden child of that group, you know what I mean. And yeah, that's through therapy, lots of therapy. I've been in therapy for three years. I actually just left my individual therapist and I'm going to start group therapy in September because now I feel like I'm pretty good one-on-one, but being in a group, speaking in a group, taking up space is still pretty hard for me, you know? Contrary to popular belief.

Okay. Contrary to what we see on social media, for sure. I really appreciate what you're saying about this competitive urge. There's this term I heard recently, cathartic normalization that if you are willing to admit really embarrassing shit, it's not only does it feel good for you, but it's actually really good for anybody listening because we're all fucked up in various ways. And so when I heard you say that, my first thought was, oh yeah, I do that too.

And I remember going into couples counseling with my wife and thinking, I'm going to win at this shit. It just seems like a very human urge. Yeah, my ex-husband and I, we admitted to each other that we would save things, with things would happen throughout the week and we would kind of bank them to pull them up at the right moment in therapy

so that we could do what you're saying. We could be the one who won, who was the right one of therapy. It's fucked up. It is, but now I'm gonna start doing that. And we could be the one who won, who was the right one of therapy. It's fucked up. It is, but now I'm going to start doing that. Oh, no, don't do that. Don't do that.

But then my ex and I, we decided that we would not do that. That was the result of that conversation. But we're still divorced, so I can't give you any advice in that regard whatsoever. In terms of the roots of perfectionism and imposter syndrome and all this other stuff that you talk about in the book, there is a great quote that I'm going to read you back to you here. You brought up your dad and earlier, so this will not be coming out of nowhere. You say, my dad was absolutely terrified of any of us failing because he was walking the tight rope,

he and all immigrants walk, feeling one wrong move and it would be over. That's not an environment conducive to taking chances and that terror lives inside of me too, but my opportunity to take risks is actually my parents' legacy. Wow, who wrote that? My genius, a genius. legacy. Wow, who wrote that? Jesus. Jesus.

Yeah, I mean, that I really am proud of coming to that sort of conclusion, which was interesting because when my mom talks about us coming here from Jamaica, she says how hard it was to convince my dad to come because he was scared one wrong move and we would be homeless. You know, if we didn't make enough money, then we would, we would be living on the streets literally and that that was his fear. And so that's how we lived our lives. That's how a lot of my Jimmy can friends and family live their lives. Is that there's this idea that you have got, you've got one shot.

You've got one shot. And if you mess it up, it's over. And yeah, that's how my dad, that's how my dad always was. And my mom was the one who was more willing to take a chance for something better and to try things out. And then my dad sort of had to come along with that.

And that's what, that's where a lot of the fear and the perfectionism comes from because you do feel like, you know, especially as an immigrant, especially as a woman that if you mess up, you won't get another chance. And also the idea that there is one right answer. And if you don't get that one right answer, then you're screwed.

When the beauty of so much of what we do is that there isn't one right answer. There's so many different answers. And that's the beauty of it. And some people like to live in this black and white world, and I think I was trying to fit myself into that black and white world, not realizing how much I love the gray, and how much I love fantasy and imagination and play, and who knows what's gonna happen. I love not knowing what's gonna happen.

And yet, I was just like, no, control, control, control. It's interesting, because my dad's lack of vulnerability, my dad's lack of ability to take a chance and risk looking like a fool is what kind of fed me in my corporate world and what really failed me when it came to being an entertainment. And I am my parents in knowing that that lack of vulnerabilities also inside me really depressed me for a while

because I was like, if he and I are part of each other, then how can I ever change? And my therapist is the one who really said, Sarah, just the fact that you're asking the question is enough? That means that you're on the right path and it's going to happen. So don't force yourself into some timeline or tell yourself it's never going to happen because that's just being defeatist. I went through a period where I was really angry with my father and I really just wanted to not talk to him because I just didn't really want to be exposed

to how hard it is for him to just really connect with me. But once I started to love him, like really love him, really accept him for the way he is, then I started to accept that part of me and that's when that part of me. And that's when that part of me started to open up. So he was kind of like the wall that was between me and what I wanted, but then he also became the bridge, which is just a brilliant thing that I just came up with. That's pretty amazing. So sometimes when I feel myself talking, I'm just like, what am I saying?

I don't even know what I'm saying. I followed you every step of the way and actually like it really, it hits the center of the bulls eye for some stuff that I think about for myself a lot of feeling a lot of shame or anger around these various parts of my personality that I know where I get it from. You know, I have this pension for anger and rage that I know I get from my grandfather and I have this pension for fear and freaking out about money, which I know I get from a great grandfather on the other side of the family who actually took his own life after he was disgraced and lost all the family. Money. There's a way way one likes to think one descends from, you know, royal

noble stock, but in my case, you know, it's like cowards and crooks and you know, you can get angry about that or you can realize, well, no, these are just aspects of my personality of the human repertoire, really, that are trying to help you in some way, but you don't need to take their shitty advice all the time. And so you can kind of think about this as like a pretty sensible version of self-love, like just embracing these aspects of your own personality and of the people who came before you, but then making a smarter decision than they may have made. Yeah, yeah. And I think the mistake that some people make is trying to reject those parts of themselves

and their family and trying to either pretend they don't exist or saying that that's not me. I don't know, it's all these aspects of ourselves is we need to just accept them. I guess what I wanna say is that there's this culture of like, you know, avoid being triggered. And I kind of, I've gone gone now like actually if you're triggered, like there's something there.

And I want it, I want to hear, you know, in my head, when I get triggered, I'm like, ooh, what's going on there? Why did that make me so angry? Like sometimes I get a comment on social media, like my social media comments, people are like, oh, you must get heckled. Oh, you must get trash all the time. And it's like, no, the meanest thing that people say to me is, are you okay?

That is the meanest, that's the thing that makes me so angry. And I had to really be like, why does that make me feel so bad? Why does it make me feel so bad to have someone look at me and go, are you okay? Are you well? You know, are you well? You should get off social media for a while. Anybody who expresses some kind of concern that there might be something wrong with me, it literally makes me so angry.

And, you know, I've done some exploring, but it's still, I haven't really, I feel like when that doesn't trigger me anymore, that'll be a good moment, but it still triggers me, so that one's tough. Yeah. Is it because you sound some level use suspect that maybe you aren't doing okay? Are you trying to trigger me right now? Well, I am a white guy with a podcast. So yeah, telling me that maybe I'm not okay. I didn't tell you. Yes, you did. You know, but you just said maybe, maybe you're not okay. Maybe that's the problem, Sarah. Okay, okay. So yeah, so what if I'm not okay? So why is that a problem? Maybe I'm not okay. Is there a problem with, and what does being okay even me? But I take it as, oh, there's something wrong with you.

Like immediately there's something wrong with you. Now, I always look at the comment that people leave, and I think how did that comment make me feel is how that person is feeling. So when someone says, are you okay, that person is feeling like there's something wrong with them. And so how do you not feel like there's something wrong with you? You get someone to say, you're perfect just the way you are.

So sometimes when somebody comments, are you okay? I'll respond with, you're perfect just the way you are. Because I'm skipping all the steps and I'm just trying to get them to get what they need from my page instead of having it attack me and then I have to tell myself, hey Sarah, you're perfect just the way you are so that I won't feel like there's something wrong with me because of that comment because of your comment. I've never heard that Zen expression or it's an expression from a Zen teacher who said to his students, you're all perfect exactly as you are. And you could use a little improvement. No, I haven't heard that, but it sounds past progressive. I think it sounds helpful, which is that we were all like pretty good, good-ish, as a friend of mine says, but that doesn't mean we can't get better.

That doesn't mean there isn't room for growth, but if somebody points something some fault out to you, it doesn't mean you have to go right to the story of iratrievably broken. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. But I was thinking about that. I love what you said about being triggered, and it brought in mind another expression.

I don't know who said this, but something like if it's hysterical, it's historical. being triggered. And it brought in mind another expression. I don't know who said this, but something like if it's hysterical, it's historical. So like if you are really overreacting or just reacting really, really strongly to something, it's probably because of something in your past. Oh, that is a good one. I like saying like that. They seem really clever. If you're hysterical, it's historical. That's pretty cool. I like that. Best case scenarios, if it's Malif Lewis and useful.

In this case, I actually think it is useful because when I notice myself, I'm trying to think of what people say to me that makes me, well, like for example, if I get some email indicating that some aspect of my business is not doing well, I can go right to, oh, I'm a great grandfather now, and I'm going to have to kill myself, which I don't really think, but some aspect of my conditioning comes roaring to life when I get

any negative data point. And I think that's just a great example of, oh, yeah, something is hysterical here, and it, therefore, is probably historical. Yeah, yeah, is it like a fear of failure? Yeah, not unlike your dad. I mean, and it's interesting because I have all the privileges, you know, like all of them, loving family. Are you single? No, married.

I am married. Okay. That's a bummer. And all of, well, you want somebody with all the privileges? Come on. I married. I am married. Okay. That's a bummer. Well, you want somebody with all the privileges? Come on. I just, you know, privilege is hot. Privileges.

No, it's just kidding. A privilege is not hot. Yeah, you know, privilege. I don't know. You're, you have privilege. Sorry, I interrupted you. No, no, I was just going to say unlike your dad, I come from several generations of people

who lived in the country. Yeah. I don't, I don just going to say, unlike your dad, I come from several generations of people who lived in the country. Yeah. And I don't have as much objective reason to believe that one wrong move, and I get, you know, I'm on the street, and yet I still have that feeling. You still have that feeling, really? Yeah. 100 percent, absolutely. Huh, that's interesting.

I guess this is an interesting thing because I assumed being a straight white guy that you know you can make many mistakes and you'll probably get another chance. But you don't feel that way. It's what you're saying. Exactly. I know it and I see the unfairness of it, but I don't feel that way. Yeah. Yeah. interesting.

So even if I was a straight white guy, it still would be the same person probably. No, I mean, I have to imagine, and this is just gonna take an empathic leap on my part, that it would be way more difficult if in fact you didn't have all the privileges and that you were enduring macro and micro aggressions that I don't have to endure, in fact, you know, getting back to imposter syndrome,

there's a pretty good critique of imposter syndrome that it's often a thing that white women talk about, but a lot of women of color are now coming out and saying, well, no, my problem is an imposter syndrome. My problem is prejudice. Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, I haven't heard that, but I have experienced some prejudice, I think. But I think because my parents were like from Jamaica, I kind of write about this in the book.

Like, I didn't even know what I was for a long time. I think I thought I was white. My best friend, Stacey, was Jewish. She still is. And I didn't actually know until I was eight years old that I was black. When I went home and I said to my parents, like, I think I'm black, they're like, no, where do you make me a gun? You know? So I was like, because in Jamaica, it's a majority black country. And so like, you don't really get asked about race there. And so I feel like I just have a lot of, a lot of white energy, if that makes sense. Yeah, I hear you really liked the movie La La Land, for example.

I've seen it three times. I think it's a depiction of jazz is spot on. I've never listened to jazz, but I'm pretty sure that movie was accurate. I've thought about starting a podcast, just like, you look like you're rolling in dough. So it seems like it would be fun to do that. Yeah, I had a Jamaican nanny growing up.

She was family and lots of families here in Brooklyn have Jamaican nannies. So it's kind of interesting. The point is really though that what I was trying to say is our fear of failure is sort of universal, regardless of how much privilege we might have. So you privileged as you are, are scared of failure,

and other people, maybe without the privilege, are also very scared of failure. I don't know. I was walking in Brooklyn, and there was this really long line, and it was the government benefit line, and it was very, very long. And I thought to myself,

I think I would feel ashamed if I had to stand in that line. And so I had to stand in the line because I really wanted to confront that feeling. So I got in line and I ended up striking this conversation with the woman in front of me and it was just

like just really interesting to think about how we're always sort of comparing ourselves to other people. And I always really hate lines and I think the reason I hate lines is because there is that sort of like you're ahead of me, you're behind me. You know, there's people getting getting in right now and I hate them and there's people who just got in line and oh, they're such suckers, you know, there's people getting getting in right now. And I hate them and there's people who just got in line and, oh, they're such suckers, you know, and so like this idea of standing in a line and having that comparison be so apparent.

And the person behind you always feels like they're too close to you. And the person ahead of you just feels like they're not taking this seriously, because they're not moving up as soon as a person in front moves up. You know, like there's all this tension in a line that I feel, I feel like in life, it just goes back to the competition of just like, not, I just, I, I read something today, like, you shouldn't, you can compare yourself, but you shouldn't be envious, and I agree like jealousy is bad, but the comparison and wanting to, like, I'm looking at you in your podcast and like, oh, that would be cool to have something like that. I think that aspirational comparison is okay to have, but at the same time, I also just wish there weren't so many things like privilege that like created these divisions between us.

I'm curious like, are you regularly trying to put yourself in situations where discomfort is unavoidable? I guess so. I guess that's been my whole thing. I mean, I, you know, stand up comedy is very uncomfortable for me still. I've been doing it for 13 years now. I'm still very scared when I get up there, you know, talking to you with your perfect voice and your perfect hair is also very intimidating.

Putting this book out, I'm scared to death. I'm scared to death about this book. And I didn't even realize it until the other day. I was just like, I'm filled with panic over this book and I'm just covering it up with posting on social media. You know what I mean? I'm just like, but inside there's this panic of, oh God, I've got two weeks.

It's coming out. Are people to like it? Does it suck? I mean, today I was starting to get angry that like, it's a really great book, but people just won't know how great it is. You know, I was just telling myself all of these things about how it's going to fail. And so it's so hard to flip that and be like, no, I'm proud of it. And it's going to find the people that it should find, you know? Just let it go. I've been in that situation a couple of times. I can tell you what has been useful for me. Do you think that would be worth doing? Oh, please. Any help would be great. I'm not saying this is some sort of panacea, but having put out a couple of books, and this is way easier to say than to do, but this idea that comes out of Buddhism of

non-attachment to results, meaning you can work your ass off on the book itself, on promoting it on social media, on every white guy's podcast available, all of that stuff. And we live in a totally entropic chaotic universe and you cannot control Thou come and so if you can just put on everything into the causes Without worrying about the effects. Yeah, then that is if you can remember to do it a root to something resembling Sadity. Yeah, that sounds smart. That sounds smart. How old are you? 52 52 that's a good age How old are you? 52. 52. That's a good age. How old are you? 45. Okay. Yeah. That's also a good age. Is that what I'm supposed to say? Are you only saying what you're supposed to say,

Dan? Because that wouldn't be a very good conversation. No, no, no. Yeah, 52 is a good age. I think 45 is a good age. I think 45 is a good age. I think what's the worst age, you think? I was not super happy at like 13. Okay, yeah. I'm gonna say 26. Really? Why? I was just, I was so amazing and I had no idea how amazing I was. And so when I look back at the things that I was writing then,

I was like, oh wow, this is really good. And I was really on to something I kept quitting. I kept giving up on myself. So that pisses me off. Are you saying 13 because of puberty? Puberty. I hit a big wall of like, I don't really love this term, but I'll use it anyway, like toxic masculinity. I was a pretty sensitive boy, performed in plays, and then I got to junior high and got bullied and had to like, or felt I had to like, armor up in order to survive. Wow, so you became a bully? Well, I was too small to actually be a bully,

but I definitely made the bullies my friends. Oh, wow, so you were like the conceliary. Yeah, that's a little bit of a, that's giving it more class and glamour than it deserves, but maybe kiss ass. Okay, you're a kiss ass. Oh, wow. So how did you, how did you stop doing that?

Cause it seems like that would be fruitful to kiss ass. I've kissed a lot of ass in my life and it's always worked out. Yeah, it did work out. And that's unfortunate in some ways. It's not so much the ass kissing, it's theauthenticity, the fakeness, the falseness, that's the problem, and the armor, you know, the pretending that there's one way in my case to be a man, and it's just taking me a long time to even start to unlearn that. And it's not that hard for me to get back into that

conditioning because it runs so deep. So is there a daily practice that you have to do in order to keep the armor off? Yeah, meditation, therapy, trying to get enough sleep, making sure I'm super deliberate about like working on the relationships in my life. Got a little tattoo recently to remind me to do things not just for my own selfish purposes. Your tattoo literally says don't do things for my own selfish purposes. It's a Buddhist phrase and it says for the benefit of all beings, but it's I made an acronym out of it. It's right in your where I usually wear my watch. I look down here a lot and it's a reminder of pull your head out of your ass. Don't be out for yourself all the time. I'm not trying to say it's never appropriate to have selfish motivations, but I've noticed

that for me, they can be overwhelming. That is incredible that you tattoo that on your body. That is incredible. No, I've never gotten a tattoo because I just feel like the commitment. I don't know. I can't think of anything that I would just connect to enough to put it on my body permanently. So that just, when did you get that? Just a couple of weeks ago actually.

Oh wow. My wife and I went and got tattoos together. And I was never into tattoos because I always thought, like, oh, it's some artistic thing that I'm gonna fall out of love with. And a lot of my buddies in high school got stupid cartoon characters tattooed on themselves, which I feel bad for them about.

But I'm really into meditation and the Dharma, which is just another way of saying Buddhism and the biggest obstacle is that you just forget stuff. You get triggered and you forget. And so you gotta do everything you can to remember not to be a dick to yourself and other people. And so tattoos seemed like a reasonable next step. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's smart.

I think my thing is that I get into robot mode. It's not that I, it's not that I, I mean, it is a bit of an armor. I guess robot mode is my armor. It's like getting into a script where I feel like I'm not really connected to what I'm saying and I'm not really connecting to the other person. And sometimes when I get into it, it's like an accent that I've started that I can't stop using. And I hate it because I feel that part of me that's watching me and I see myself and yet I have no control. And I can't stop the train. And it's so frustrating. I hate that so much. When you get into that performative mode, what do you think it is that puts you in the mode?

Gosh, such a good question. It's the feedback, honestly. And that's the first time I really thought about it or answered it. But it's like, I'm addicted to someone nodding at me. I think that's what it is. You know what I mean? And so I'm just going for the nod. And it's so easy to say some placating, statement, universal, whatever that someone can just go, yeah, of course. You know, because there are statements that you can't not nod to. And I feel like that's the performative.

It's me saying something you cannot not not yet. You know, so I think that's what it is. I see the nodding and I'm like, oh, keep going this way, keep going this way. Even though with the part of me is like, no, stop. You don't want to talk about that. You tell a story like, you know, like be open, be vulnerable, share something that you've never shared before.

Like, that's what you want to do. You don't want to do this bullshit, you know? I think this, I mean, my experience trying to undo old patterns that takes a long time. And like, I would hate for you to beat yourself up the next time you notice yourself doing this, which may happen in this very conversation or some conversation later today. I think the goal is to like do it less frequently and catch yourself earlier. Does that make sense?

Yeah, do it less frequently and catch yourself earlier. Does that make sense? Yeah, do it less frequently and catch myself earlier. Yeah. I was going to make a joke about making that into a Buddhist tattoo on my back, but then I decided not to. Dan, I put it on my back and also it's a Buddhist, so I can't read it. What am I going to do? Oh my God. You know, it's interesting though. I will say, I journal a lot.

And I notice that sometimes, if I'm speaking, if I think to myself, what would I write about this moment right now? That immediately gets me to the real thing that's going on. Like, what would I write about this moment? Like, I think Dan really likes me. That's what I would like. That's what I would like. That's what I would like.

That's what I would like. Okay, three things to say. First of all, I really love that. That's a great hack. You asked before what practices I have for breaking out of my nonsense. You just gave a great one for yourself. The second thing is you're absolutely right. I do really like you. And the third thing to say is speaking of your writing, you have, it is very hard to be funny on the page and you really can do it. Thank you so much. That means the world to hear.

That's all I want. It is like, yeah, I hope you get something out of it. But if you laugh, that's what makes me the happiest. So I really appreciate that. And I bet letting yourself journal without expecting anything to come per se of the work. I'm just guessing here that some of the greatest parts of the book come from those journaling sessions. Yes, very much so, very much so. And it's really, there's all these connections

that I started to make between things I had never made before. And in particular, there's a chapter called Pick Me, Pick Me, which is about being a Pick Me girl, which if you don't know what a Pick Me girl is, it's basically a girl who will literally do anything for you to pick them, like just pick me. There's a very famous speech in Grey's Anatomy that Meredith does, where she's just like, choose me, love me, pick me. And it's just like this begging that we sort of, like we sort of said that that was a good thing

at one point. And now women are like, no, like if you don't want me, go away. And I think that's a little bit of a better attitude to have. But back, this was around the time that I was like early 30s. And I was on the set of a commercial, where I was an extra. And if you want to know anything about me,

it's just like if I do anything, I'm going to like try to be the best at it. That's just my competitive nature. I'm you want to know anything about me, it's just like, if I do anything, I'm going to like try to be the best at it. That's just my competitive nature. I'm just going to try to absolutely be the best. So I wanted to be the best extra I could be. But I was down there with all these other extras and they would come down and pick a few people and then leave.

And every time they wanted to pick someone, I would like perk up and I would try to look like, okay, like here I am, pick me, pick me. And it was exactly that pick me, pick me, attitude that made them never pick me. And then I ended up sort of falling in love at first sight with the director of this commercial and then I became a pick me girl for him

where I would literally do anything for him to just say, yes, I'll be your boyfriend. You know, that's all I wanted him to say, but I would, I was degrading myself for this guy. So I was a pick me girl on the set. I was a pick me girl in that relationship with the connection that I didn't make until later even was that this conversation I had with him in bed, which I turned into a script, which is in the book as well, which is that I asked him, you know, when you go to the grocery store and you're picking out apples, do you do you think the apples are saying, pick me pick me or are the apples saying, don't pick me, don't pick me. And his response was both the apples that are feeling really

good about where they are in life are saying, don't pick me because they're happy where they are. And the apples that are kind of bruised and looking for an ego boost are saying, pick me, pick me because they need that ego boost. And I was like, wow, like that's the whole chapter. And I hadn't made that connection before. So it's like, and that's basically my whole life is like making all these connections between my writing and then being able to see myself in the writing and then being able to evolve through what I see and the connections that I can make. Do you feel like you still have the pick me, energy,

on the regular now? Oh gosh. Well, I'm starting to do some interviews and I had a few yesterday and I have this one. And I'm always jealous of people who can get on these interviews and just be like, yeah, whatever, I'm here, who cares, you know. But I don't know. It's like I have to find the balance between the pick me, which is like you're minimizing your true self in some way,

like not being authentic in order to be liked. And my true vibe, which is a dog, like inside, I'm a puppy dog, like I just, I wanna be your friend, you know, like I wanna get to know you, like that's who I really am. And sometimes I think that that veers into the pick me sort of situation. And so that's kind of the type of rope that I've been walking here today.

That's so interesting. I, for what it's worth, we're not even in the same room, but the vibe I get is golden retriever in the positive sense, not needy energy suck vampire. Okay, good, thank you so much. I'm so glad I'm not the energy suck vampire. Much more with Sarah Cooper right after this. they're a Cooper right after this. Viking committed to exploring the world in comfort journey through the heart of Europe on a Viking longship with thoughtful service and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. Learn more at Viking.com.

I'm Rob Bryden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and we are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on so do sit back and enjoy Briden and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't miss out on Celebration of Sharon Salisberg's new book. We've made her course on Loving Kindness, which we call 10% nicer. Free over in the 10% happier app until October 23rd. Download the 10% happier app today wherever you get your apps and get started for free. I'm going to pose some discipline on myself because I came into this interview as I always do with like a whole plan of things I want to

talk about and I try to let the plan go out the window if I've got a guest who's going in various directions and with you you're taking us in so many interesting directions and I'm just going try to let the plan go out the window if I've got a guest who's going in various directions. And with you, you're taking us in so many interesting directions. And I'm just going with it. However, I don't want to lose the thread of your book. So I'm going to list a bunch of things that happen in the early part of the book. And I'll let you comment on whatever you want to comment on. The first part of the book is called assimilation.

And you talk about some of the things you've already mentioned here, how you wrestled with blackness. There's a great quote, and you talk about some of the things you've already mentioned here, how you wrestled with blackness. There's a great quote, even in the vast spectrum of blackness. I don't know where I am sometimes. I can't tell if I'm a black woman or a white dude named Craig, which I think is hilarious. And then later in the book, you move into a section called Determination, where you talk about getting married in divorce twice. So that's a lot to throw at you, but what in there do you want to pick a part and talk

about? Oh, can you pick something? You pick it. You pick something. I'm happy to talk about any of it. Well, let's talk about the divorces. Oh, great. The way you describe it in the book is that you felt a lot of shame.

Like it was a failure in some way to get divorced twice. Is that correct? And how do you feel about it now? So one thing I noticed is that, yeah, I have been divorced twice and thank you so much for mentioning that many times over and over again for everyone who didn't hear it the first few times. But I think it's very topical because this is the year of divorce stand. Did you know that?

I did not know that. Everyone is breaking up this year apparently. A lot of, there have been a lot of breakups this year. Have you not looked at Google News? No, who's broken up? Well, I don't want to name names, but Joe Jonas. Oh, that's right. It's just one.

That's just one. But it seems to be a big theme this year is sort of divorce isn't breaking up. And the thing about divorce is I did feel very much like a failure after my first marriage, which was a quickie marriage, a guy I met in my acting class, which was the first red flag. And I was only married to him for three months. I was very ashamed of that. It was me trying to not be teacher's pet Sarah. I was me trying to do something crazy that nobody saw coming.

And that was definitely it. And then my second marriage, I realized how much of a reaction that marriage was to the first marriage and the fact that the first marriage I saw as a failure where I did everything wrong, and so the second marriage had to do everything right, had to work perfectly, had to get married, on the beach where we met. We had to have the white wedding dress, had to have the bridesmaids with the matching dresses, had to have the ring from Tiffany, had to buy a place within the first year,

had to try to have a kid, like, you know what I mean? Like I just wanted to do everything right to erase the fact that I thought that that first marriage was, you know, a failure and a mistake. So, but then when it comes to leaving the marriage that I just left a few years ago, you know, I thank God for marriage. That was the hardest, it's like my proudest moment, it think God for marriage, that was the hardest.

It's like my proudest moment, it's my weakest moment, it's also my most powerful moment, turning to my husband and saying, I'm done. Like, was so hard and I almost heard the words coming out of my mouth and I didn't even know that I was saying them kind of moment. And I got on a train to go stay with my sister right after that happened. And I was on this train and the guy next to me was watching a movie without headphones. And I had

trouble asking him to turn down his movie or put on headphones, but I had just asked for a divorce. So you know what I mean? It was a wild day, but it was just like divorce in terms of being able to say this isn't working and make that choice is so hard. And I'm so glad that we have that choice to make. It's a choice you should never have to make if you don't want to.

But there's so many people who are in relationships where they're being completely stifled, and I'm sure that's not your situation. At least not on your end, probably. I'm just kidding. But if it was, thank God for, you know, second chances, third chances, if you will. Are you interested in getting married again? Is this a proposal? I knew that was a matter of. I actually don't think I am. I actually described my perfect relationship yesterday, which is he's like 52.

He has a pocket. I don't think I've had a guest in a while who's fucked with me this much, but I really appreciate it. I just want to say that. No, but like around 50, but I just, I don't think I want to get married again. I think that I would like once a month, we hang out in some random city and have some random adventure. And then we say goodbye.

And then we go live our separate lives for the rest of the month. That, to me, two very independent people who have great careers that they are in love with their careers. And then just have this sort of companionship, I think that's my ideal situation. I don't see myself ever like living with anyone again. I love living by myself so much. So there's so many things that I don't think I would ever give up again for a marriage. So in the book, you talk a lot about your childhood and then your personal life. And then there's

a big section called humiliation about your career. You try a lot of stuff. You mentioned Google and then you became a writer slash comedian, but it seems like it was the Trump videos that really kind of put everything on steroids. Can you, like, how did you come up with the idea to do that and were you surprised by the response? Yeah, I mean, I was definitely surprised by the response. I mean, the way definitely surprised by the response. I mean, the way that I came up with that was just playing around on TikTok,

which my nephew showed me, you know, they showed their old aunt Sarah TikTok. And I was just playing around with it because it was COVID. I couldn't get on stage. And the first quote that I heard him say was some reporter asked him how he was going to tackle a problem and he said, well, we're going to form a committee. Yeah, we'll call it a committee. And it's going to be really good committee. And we're going to solve problems. And we're going to make decisions. And you know what I mean? He was basically just acting as if he came up with the idea for a committee like right then and there.

And we all knew that he didn't really know what he was talking about. And that was kind of an open secret, not even a secret, but the thing that was frustrating was all the people around him, nodding at him, you know? So there we go, it's back to the nodding. I was jealous of all the people around him nodding at him, you know? So there we go, it's back to the nodding. I was jealous of all the nodding. He was getting for saying nothing, you know what I mean?

And that's been my whole thing. It's just like people who get nods for no effort when I put in so much effort to get the nods and I don't get the nods. And so I said to myself, I want to be that guy. I want to be the guy who's just saying a bunch of bullshit and like everybody's still treating him like he's God's gift to the world.

And so when I lip-sync that, I was just like, yeah, I'm in a meeting. I'm one of the guys from Google in a meeting just like, you know, whatever. And that's kind of, you know, I wasn't doing an impression of Trump, I wasn't trying to be Trump. That's why I always got so confused when people were like, oh, you should put on a wig and wear the time.

I'm like, no, this is about if I did that. That's the point of this. What if a person who looked like me was that? I'm not trying to be him, I'm trying to be myself. If you guys would let me get away with this shit, which you would never. So, and it was kind of fun. I was like, oh, this is fun. Look at me, like just, you know, and it, and it was really interesting just hearing his voice coming out of my mouth. So, that was kind of cool. But I, I was going to stop doing it. I wasn't going to even do it

anymore because it didn't go viral. That first committee clip didn't go viral. And then there was the, you know, the light saw conference where he suggested hitting the body with a very powerful light and putting light saw into your veins. And it was just this clip that I couldn't ignore really. My husband at the time was just like, Sarah, you got to see this. And I was like, okay. And so I just, I did it. I don't know. I thought it would be fine.

I didn't think it would go crazy viral, but then it had a million views within a night. And again, I wasn't gonna make any more videos after that. I was gonna move on to something else, but then he just kept saying things. As the pandemic got more and more serious, it got more and more frustrating. Because when the situation gets so dire and you have

someone who clearly has no competence, it gets even more frustrating so I couldn't help myself but to keep sort of making them. And then when they started to really take off and get shared by all of these huge people and then I was able to get an agent, which is something I'd been trying to do for years. And I couldn't do, I was able to sell my books, you know, to turn them into TV shows, which is something I'd been trying to do. And I couldn't do like literally I got handed the keys to Hollywood, like immediately. And I definitely did not see that coming.

I didn't expect it at all. It's interesting. I mean, this is a thing you hear a lot, but in the book, you describe it as like everything you would always want it. And also, it wasn't entirely pleasant. in the book, you describe it as like, everything you would always wanted, and also it wasn't entirely pleasant. Well, the unpleasant part of it was the,

this goes back to my dad, actually. A lot of dads love my videos, and I noticed that a lot of my humor appeals to dads, and I was wondering why that was. And then I remembered that in my family, if I could make my dad laugh, then everybody was happy. He was sort of, you know, very authoritarian kind of guy,

do as I say, not as I do. And scary, you know, I was scared of him. I think we were all a little scared of him. Like when he came home from work, we would hide. We would make sure the place was clean and then we'd hide. So no one wanted daddy to be upset. No one ever wanted daddy to be upset. So I got very good at making him laugh and a lot of times that was like sort of like you know, poking fun at him in a way that he liked and thought was funny and fun. And so that's the thing that I thought that that was kind of cool when I first thought about it,

but then I thought, wait a second, does that mean that my humor comes from fear, from a fear of something? Like, I have to, it's not that I'm enjoying making a joke, it's that I have to or else I will be punished or like we will have a bad night at home. So when Jerry Seinfeld shared my clip and he talked about it in the New York Times, he specifically said she's not trying to be funny. It just looks like something she has to do. And someone interviewed my ex-husband about my videos, and he talked about how people would request videos for me, and I was sort of deliver, like I was delivering soup for someone.

Like I was like, it was an obligation. And so I think when something's was like, it was an obligation. And so, I think when something's an obligation, it becomes less fun. And I was, by the end, I was spending all day 12 hours on a video just because it had to be right. And I had to get it right and all of this stuff. And so that became a lot of pressure. And then, you know, meeting all of my heroes within the span of a few months when I don't think I even really knew who I was. There's something in an entertained business called the general meeting, which is like in tech, we have specific meetings within agenda and like this is what we need to get done. But in Hollywood, they have general meetings where you're just supposed to be yourself and like, you know, let the person know who you are.

And I was a mirage. I was sort of, there was, there was a representative showing up, but I didn't know who I was a mirage. I was sort of, there was a representative showing up, but I didn't know who I was. I saw this quote from Matthew McConaughey the other day where he was talking about his early meetings in Hollywood. And he said, I was a dud. I didn't have any opinions. I didn't know what my style was.

I didn't know how could I have been interesting in those meetings when I wasn't, I was just trying to please. I wasn't showing up. I wasn't really invested. I wasn't putting myself into the actual meetings. And that't, I was just trying to please, I wasn't showing up, I wasn't really invested, I wasn't putting myself into the actual meetings, and that's what I was doing. I got the biggest opportunities I've ever gotten, and I look back sometimes and I say,

I wasn't ready, you know? I know now it's part of my story, and like I had to be here to get there, or had to be there to get here, whatever it is, but like if I had known like exactly who I was, exactly what my taste was, I think I could have handled it a lot better. In the book, you talk about how it's nice to be in hell.

Is that am I making an appropriate connection here? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that was a song that Fred Armiston wrote for the Netflix comedy special, Sarah Cooper, everything's fine. And he wrote that song. And it's the name of the section is humiliation. And you think to yourself, it's awful to be humiliated.

But it's awful, but it's also great. It's also, like, so that's what it's nice to be in hell is. It's like actually, you know, being on a movie set, being on a any kind of situation where you feel like you're not good enough or you feel scared that you're going to make an ass of yourself. It's awful, but it's also the greatest opportunity and it's the most fun. You know, I think about every set I've ever been on and I miss all of them. I wish I was back on all of them because it is so exciting. But it's the key is to not let

that part of you, which is my dad part of me that says, Oh, God, oh, God, you're going to say something wrong. You're going to do something wrong. Not let that steal the joy of being there, you know, but even when it is humiliating, it is still the best thing in the world. Let's go back to Jerry Seinfeld because he plays a big role in the book. So you went and worked on a movie that he wrote and your relationship with him sounds pretty complex. And at one point you said, you thought you were falling in love with him. What was that about? There was a moment on set. I mean, first of all, it was such a dream to be able to work with him. I mean, first of all, it was such a dream to be able to work with him. And, you know, it's not an opportunity that I ever, in a million years, thought I would get.

Like Jerry Seinfeld, he made a great show, he tours, he writes comedy, he doesn't do movies. He's done B-movie, but he wrote this joke about a pop star 10 years ago, and his partners and writing partners came to him and said, we have this idea for movie. And he decided to take this chance to make a movie. And at 68 years old, which is so great, I just think that's so great to direct it, to write it, to star in it. And there's a part for his assistant in the movie.

And I get that part, which is absolutely just pinch me how could this possibly happen. Not to mention the fact that the movie takes place in the 60s, so it's all madmen, and I love madmen. It's the humor of Seinfeld, which I've seen every episode, like four times. And it's about cereal, which I love. So it's just everything that I ever wanted. But I had this sort of, he's sort of this God. And it was very hard for me, just really just be myself around him. But I tried. I tried very hard.

And I just loved watching him on set because he was so seamless. Like he's just the same guy no matter what. Like he's just this, he is Jerry Seinfeld all the time. And I remember this moment on set where it was a very pleasant set, except for this one tiny little moment where somebody kind of got upset

and like everything got very, very quiet and very, very anxious on set just for a moment. And Jerry immediately just steps in and goes, guys, guys, guys, let's just keep it calm. We're making a movie about a pop-tart, you know? And immediately everyone laughs. 200 people laugh, seven words. And he made all of them laugh and relax. And I saw the comparison, honestly, between the way my dad held power through sort of yelling and cursing, and the way that Jerry held power through making everyone feel like it's okay, it's okay.

You don't have to take this so seriously, you know, we're all okay, you know. And you know, with great power comes great confusing feelings like I write in the book, which is basically that I convinced myself that I was completely in love with him. And that's why I say the book is about some dad issues because, you know, I think the great thing is that for the first time, I wasn't attracted to a narcissistic quality. I was attracted to a quality that was actually a great quality to be attracted to someone

who could just make you feel calm and safe. But it shouldn't have been with Jerry Seinfeld, who was married with three kids. Hi Jessica, if you're listening to this. But like, I talked to my therapist about it. I felt like it was basically just some very confusing hallucinations or something. I don't even know what to call it, but it happened. And I will say that writing this book was very hard.

And one of the hardest things about writing this book was sending that chapter to him to get him to say it was okay. So like hitting send on that email, I needed someone to be with me when I said that. And I needed someone to be with me when he wrote back. Like that was really, really hard. And I'm totally cool now though, like if I hung out with him now, like I'd be so cool is what I'm saying. I guess that's not true is what you're saying? Yeah, no, it's totally true. It was cool when you, what he read it? How was he about it?

He's the most generous kindest man in the whole world. He wrote back and said, Sarah, you are a delightful, complicated human being. And he said, of course, he was fine with what I wrote in it. And he let me use delightful complicated as a quote. I mean, he really is just incredibly kind and generous. And I don't know, just a gem of a human being. I believe it. But I do wanna go back to the moment where he makes everybody laugh during that tense moment on set

because I had it in front of me and I wanted to ask you about it because I see two things simultaneously in that moment. Both of them have been big themes in this conversation and are big themes in your book. One of them is that this guy has a kind of self-assuredness, self-confidence, authenticity, genuineness that he can be the same Jerry,

whether he's writing, acting, directing, whatever it is. Yeah. He doesn't get into the situation where he, like, has to do what most of us have to do which is ask ourselves why we're being so fake. The other thing though is the power and the you know for lack of a better term privilege and yes, he wields it in a different way than your dad. But not everybody could have the standing to command a room in that way. And there are some, there are things about his chromosomal structure

and our culture that allow him to do that. And so it just seems like a rich moment. It is a very rich moment, but I will say this, I've heard horror stories about directors because when you have a film is your baby, if you've written and directed, it's your baby. And I even feel that if I was directing a movie and it was very important to me,

I think I might lose it as much as I wanna be a nice person. You know, so like, I think to realize how it's important to make a good film, but also realize how it's important to have a good time making that film. Like, it's so, I don't know, it's really cool. I think that even sometimes people take advantage of their privilege to make people feel really small and to take advantage of your privilege to make people feel huge is amazing. Yeah, I mean, it's so different from Trump. Yes, exactly.

Who is also an older white straight male? Yes. And, I mean, it's just hard to miss the fact that you're seeing very clearly that older white straight males, myself among them, have this undue, unearned position of power. Yes. And we made wield it differently, but it's still a fact.

Absolutely. And I think that's the other thing that I do want to say is that I realized at the end of this book how much I wrote about men, and how much I wrote about powerful men who I looked up to, who I was attracted to, who I wanted to be near or next to. And I realized how much that had to do with not feeling powerful on my own. And it wasn't until recently that I thought about that moment with Jerry on the set where he made everybody feel okay again.

And part of the attraction was the fact that that was my role in my family. I made everybody laugh like that. that was my role in my family. I made everybody laugh like that. I eased attention in my family and so I was kind of seeing myself in him in a way too. So it was like, yeah, I'm really hot for the director, but I'm also hot for myself. So yeah, I mean, and I also think, you know, it just gets confusing too when something really like turns you on and everything about that set turned me on like everything everybody, this cast the crew, my costume, hair, everything just turned me on. It was just a very intense, intense situation. So I think that contributed to it as well.

One last question about Jerry, he sounds like he inspired the title of the book, Foolish. Yeah, I was sitting around with him between takes. And it was just this sort of magical day. And we were having a great time. And you know, on set, I was very scared of making a mistake. And Jerry said, you know, this is the business of being embarrassed. And I just really hit me like, oh my God, I'm terrified of embarrassing myself. And I saw that actually in the

journal that I wrote after I left Google, which is also in the book of how I didn't want to look like an idiot for leaving. I didn't want people to look at me like, oh, jeez, look at her. She tried to make it and she failed. And so much of being embarrassed is deciding that other people think you suck. It's putting yourself in someone else's head and deciding they have decided that you're not worthy, but you have no idea what people are thinking. I had this realization that I'm the only one who can make myself feel embarrassed. No one can make, no one has that power over me. It's only me telling myself that other people think I suck. That's where all my embarrassment comes from. And that fear of embarrassment stopped me

from taking a lot of chances that I wished I had taken. I realized also the connection between taking a small chance. Like if you're in a conversation and you think about saying something like you wanna say something and you say to yourself, no, I don't wanna say that. You might think of that as a really small moment, but you've just rejected yourself a tiny bit in that moment.

And those tiny rejections can add up over time. When you give up on yourself, when you abandon yourself like that, even in those tiny moments, it can lead to bigger abandonments. And so now I try, even with the smallest, smallest things, to not abandon myself.

And the more that I learn how to not abandon what I really want, who I really am, then it gets easier to do that over time and in bigger spaces. That's amazing. We'll be back with more Sarah Cooper after this. Deep in the enchanted forest, from the whimsical world of Disney Frozen, something is wrong. Arondelle is in danger once again from dark forces threatening to disrupt the peace and tranquility.

And it's up to Anna and Elsa to stop the villains before it's too late. For the last ten years, Frozen has mesmerized millions around the world. Now, Wondery presents Disney Frozen, Forces of Nature podcast, which extends the storytelling of the beloved animated series as an audio-first original story, complete with new characters and a standalone adventure set after the events of Frozen 2. Reunite with the whole crew! Anna, Elsa, Olaf, and Kristoff for an action-packed adventure of fun, imagination, and mystery. Follow along as the gang enlist the help of old friends and new as they venture deep into

the forest and discover the mysterious copper machines behind the chaos. And count yourself amongst the allies as they investigate the strange happenings in the enchanted forest. The only question is, are Anna and Elsa able to save their peaceful kingdom? Listen early and add free to the entire season of Disney-Frozen Forces of Nature podcast, along with exclusive bonus content on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, or Wondery Plus Kids on Apple Podcasts. What if we told you that there's a darker side to royalty? And more often than not, life as a prince or princess is anything but a fairy tale.

I'm Brooke Sifrin, and I'm Arisha Skidmore Williams, and we're the hosts of Wondery's podcasts, Even the Rich and Rich and Daily, and we're so excited to tell you about our brand new podcast, called Even the Royals, where we'll be pulling back the curtain on royal families, past and present, from all over the world. On Even the Royals, we'll cover everything from stories you thought you knew, like Marie Antoinette, who was actually a victim of a vulgar propaganda campaign which started a wild chain of events that led to her eventual beheading.

Or Catherine de Medici, who was assumed to be responsible for one of the most devastating massacres in French history. But in reality, she was a mother holding on to her dying dynasty. Royal status might be bright and shiny, but it comes with the expense of everything else, like your freedom, your privacy, and sometimes even your head. Follow even the royals on the Wendery app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you don't want to wait for more episodes, join Wendery Plus today to listen exclusively and add free.

This is the last quote from the book that I'll read back to you, but it seems to kind of sum up one of the core learnings. The quote is, if you're out there thinking about every mistake you've ever made, don't. You did it exactly the way you were supposed to. Get excited about what you'll try next time because there will be a next time. Yes. It was so fortuitous that I came across this woman just crying alone on a bench. I was coming home from doing a set in the neighborhood and I had to sit down and ask her

if she was okay and she said, literally, I'm just sitting here thinking about every mistake I've ever made. And I realized that's what I did. I was punishing myself over and over and over again for mistakes that I thought I had made in the past. And I wasn't able to comfort that woman in that moment because I still didn't really have the tools, but I was so happy to be able to write that in the book because I'm saying it to myself as much as I'm saying it to everyone reading it. I had to tell myself that there will always be another chance as long as I keep going. And so I wish I had said that to her, but I put it in the book and it's something

that I have to remind myself, like that's probably some kind of tattoo I would get is to remind myself that it's never over, you know. Keep fucking up. Keep fucking up. Okay. Keep fucking up. Yeah, I love that. Hell yeah. Here's the last question I want to ask you.

Actually, just in the name of honesty, I have two final questions I always ask. This is the last question I'm going to ask before I do the two final questions. Which is just, where are you now? Like, what do you up to? I know you don't do the lip syncs anymore. You've got the book coming questions, which is just, where are you now? Like, what are you up to? I know you don't do the lip sinks anymore. You've got the book coming out, which is amazing,

and I hope everybody buys it and reads it. But what's going on for you? I have such big plans, and I honestly don't know how much to share because sometimes I'm like, do I tell everybody exactly? Do I tell everybody my plan or do I not? I really want to make a show. That's really what I want to do. I have started writing it and I learned so much about myself

and I know now when I get the next chances, what I would do differently and one of the things I love is sort of just improvisation. And so it's basically an improvisation based show that I'm putting together. And who knows when it's gonna come out and also if you're listening to this and it hasn't come out yet and it's been years,

then maybe I just gave up on that. So, but I'd love to have you on the show if I ever, you know, put this show together because I think you'd be perfect to be sort of, I think you're very polished is what I'm trying to say. And I think I could probably use some help in that department. And so I would love you to perhaps come on my show

and just show me your ways, So I would love you to perhaps come on my show and just show me your ways, show me your straight white privileged man ways. And I would love that. I thought you were gonna offer me a role as your assistant on the show. No, I think you'd be a very bad assistant because your voice is very commanding and so I would have a lot of trouble telling you what to do and bossing you around.

I think I can try to try it though. I could try that. People tend to get over that. I've noticed I know a lot of people in my life who are quite comfortable telling me what to do. Do you sound different when you talk to dogs. Well, there's a cat in the studio I'm in today and I've been talking to this cat all day. It's not a reciprocal relationship. I'm way more into the cat. I've got pick me energy around this cat and the cat knows it. So if you might have noticed there's no cat around me right now, even though I would welcome that. But if I was the cat, pretend I'm the cat. What are you saying to the cat? I'm too embarrassed and self-conscious to do the type of... Hey, embarrassment is only in your head.

I know. I know. But it will. You put your finger on one of my many vulnerabilities, which is that I am very worried. For example, one of my big self-criticisms is that I have never been comfortable enough to dance publicly. Oh! Dan, you have to dance.

I know, I know, I feel that. I feel this, I wanna work on it. Okay, let's work on it right now. Okay. Hahaha. If you're listening to this, she's dancing and I'm sitting here with a pole up my ass, so that's the vibe. Come on, come on.

Just a little bit of this. Let me just get just the hands, just the shoulders. Just the hands. Just the hands and shoulders. I mean, just the shoulders. I know my team's going to put this on social media. All right, just the hands. Raise the roof.

No, no, no, no, no, raising the roof. Don't do it. Just the shoulders and the hands. Oh my God. Okay. Well, I know you've you've successfully gotten me to feel foolish, which I appreciate. Oh my God. See, it's an aspirational title. Everyone should just do something that makes them feel really foolish if they can. I was hoping that when I asked you what your plans are that you would say I'm going to co-host a podcast with you Dan. That's what I thought you were going to say. Oh, I would be such a bad co-host. Yeah, maybe. I don't think so though. I think you'd be awesome. Oh, that's so sweet. That's so sweet. But you seem like the type of person you like. You got your

questions. You did your research. You seem very prepared. I'm not like that. No, I used to be a morning show anchor on network television. So I'm very much used to having an ensemble around me and surrendering control. Do you still have this voice at home like with your family and stuff? Yeah, this is just the way I talk.

I have a little brother who's not in the news, indistinguishable voice. If we call our wives or our parents, they can't tell who's calling. That's insane. I know. Oh my gosh. Okay, so say, so say, say, honey,

I'm going out to get some milk. Words I would never actually say, but yes, I would say, honey, I'm going out to get some milk. Oh I would never actually say, but yes, I would say honey, I'm going out to get some milk. Oh my god, I can't imagine living with that. I don't know what to make of that. I'm just kidding. But like it's just so professional, like, don't you ever like, do you ever just do, how do you sound when you whisper, whisper?

I am going out to get some milk. Okay, that was, that was interesting. That was interesting. If my wife were here, she would say that I'm a jackass on the regular, that I am the goofiest, least serious person, and that she gets worried if I'm not being a complete jerk off. Because then she knows I'm in a bad mood, but that 95% of the things I say are unserious, and that's my general vibe. What's cool about your voice though, is that like if you listen to rap music or something, like you just

sit on the regular, and that's kind of a cool phrase, but coming out of your mouth is kind of funny, because you're not super cool, you know what I mean? That's like what I wrote in the book, how I can't say dead ass. Like I wish I could say the phrase like dead ass or stunten, I can't say those things because it doesn't sound right coming out of my mouth. But I do, I mean, I do it pretty deliberately.

I think it's funny to have me saying things that don't sound like the type of things I would say. That's so smart. I wrote a whole scene in my first book about the first time I meditated and how all these crazy things were, all these weird, nonsensical questions were coming up in my mind and one of them was am I a baller or a shot caller. See? That's something I would listen to. Yeah. All right.

As I promised, there are two final questions I want to ask. One is, did I miss anything? Is there anything you wanted to talk about that I didn't give you a chance to talk about? No, I think we really covered a lot of stuff, and I would really appreciate your attention to detail. Thank you. It's mostly my producers who prepare me really well. And then the final final question is, can you please just remind everybody

of the name of your new book and anything else you've done that you want people to know about? Okay, well, the name of the book is Foolish, Tales of Assimilation, Determination, and Humiliation. And it comes out October 3rd and it's available on Audible, and I did read the Audible version, so you're gonna wanna get the hard's available on Audible and I did read the Audible version so you're going to want to get the hard back and Audible and then also the digital just in case something happens to the hard back

So just you're just going to want to order all three and I am also going on tour I will be in Philadelphia. I will be in New York with Amy Schumer on stage in conversation and then I'll be in DC with Phoebe Robinson So yeah come check me out if you like Congratulations on the new book. This was genuinely one of the more Interesting keep me on my toes having fun interviews. I've done it a long time. So I really appreciate it I really appreciate you being so cool and letting me be so weird. I'm just trying to refurbish the public relations problem that white male podcasters have. That's really... Well, that's not changing so. Fair enough. Thanks again to Sarah Cooper. I do think she would be a great co-host on some sort of podcast,

but I suspect she's got bigger things in her career than that. Anyway, it's such a pleasure to spend time with her. Thank you also to you for listening. If you want to do me a solid, leave me a rating or a review on your favorite podcast player. That actually helps. Also go check out the stuff I'm doing on social media these days, Instagram and TikTok, just doing some experiments with posting videos would love to hear your feedback on that. Thank you most of all to everybody who worked so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Justin Davy Gabriel Zuckerman, Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. DJ Kashmir is our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor and Kimmy Regler is our executive producer, scoring a mixing by Peter Bonnaventure of Ultraviolet

audio and Nick Thorburn of Islands wrote our theme. We'll see you right back here on Friday for a bonus. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.