Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Deepak Chopra On: Consciousness, Quantum Physics, Handling Criticism, And The Benefit Of Contemplating Your Own Death

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

A wide ranging interview with one the biggest and most controversial names in the self-help world. Deepak Chopra is the founder of the Chopra Foundation, a non-profit entity for research on well-being and humanitarianism, and Chopra Global, a modern-day health company at the intersection of science and spirituality. He is a best selling author, including numerous New York Times bestsellers. His new book, Quantum Body: The New Science of Living a Longer, Healthier, More Vital Life, is out now. In this episode we talk about:Deepak’s definition of the quantum fieldHow Deepak handles criticism The concept of creative intelligence Breathing techniques, including vagal breathing and box breathingThe benefits of imagining your own death The exercise of returning to your zero pointThe concept of the body as a verbAnd the difference between the localized 'I' and the non-local 'I'Related Episodes: Click here to listen to the previous episodes in our tenth anniversary series. To order the revised tenth anniversary edition of 10% Happier: click here For tickets to Dan Harris: Celebrating 10 Years of 10% Happier at Symphony Space: click hereSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/deepak-chopraSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Dan here. Before we start the show, I want to tell you about a live recording of this podcast that we're doing in New York City on March 28th. I will be interviewing two frequent flyers from this show, the legendary meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein, who will be just coming off a three month solo silent meditation retreat, and Dr. Mark Epstein, a Buddhist therapist and bestselling author. The event will actually be a celebration of the 10th anniversary of my first book, 10% Happier and a percentage of the proceeds will go to the New York Insight Meditation Center. Come early if you want for a VIP guided meditation and Q&A with me. Thanks to our friends over at Audible for sponsoring this show and the event.

Tickets on sale right now at symphonyspace.org. This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Okay, kids, before we get to today's guest, I'm going to tell you a story. Way back when, in like 2008 or 2009, right when I was starting to get interested in personal growth or spirituality or whatever you want to call it, I happened to meet a guy named Deepak Chopra. You've probably heard of him.

He's a medical doctor, bestselling author, one of the biggest names in the self-help world, also very controversial, about which more in a moment. You've probably heard of him. He's a medical doctor bestselling author one of the biggest names in the self-help world Also very controversial about which more in a moment. Anyway, I ended up hanging out with him a little bit I did some stories on him and then I wrote about him extensively in my first book Which is called 10% happier after which this show is named in the book I talked about how Fascinating Deepak was to me as somebody who was at the beginning of his interest in mindfulness, etc. But I also made fun of him a little bit, calling out his penchant for using grandiose phrases such as transformational vortex to the infinite.

Those are actual words he uttered to me. I still don't know what they mean. I also wrote about a moment that happened at a debate that I was moderating on television in 2010 where Deepak faced off with a scientist who was critical of Deepak's use of scientific concepts. I should say many scientists are critical of Deepak in this regard. He's been accused of twisting ideas like quantum physics. Anyway, here's a little clip. What is it about Deepak's use of quantum physics that bothers you?

The term non-local, the use was not correct and the correlations of, I don't know, the pacemaker and the different electrical things going on. I happen to disagree by the way. Oh, I assume you did, since you said that. You know you're a colleague. I happen to be a colleague. I would love to talk about it. I think consciousness is non-local. I'm sorry?

I think consciousness is non-local. Consciousness? Consciousness. Oh. You know, I've never really run across a definition of consciousness that I understood. So maybe you could teach me something and I can… A field, a super position of possibilities. Okay, well, all right.

I know what each of those words means. I still don't think I know. That was quite a moment, kind of went viral. Anyway, back to the story. As it happened in the 10 years since my first book, 10% Happier Came Out, I had not actually spoken to Deepak at all. So I didn't actually know if he was pissed at me or if he even read the book or even heard about it. Meanwhile, I also had not really kept up much with his books or his ideas during that time.

So I wanted to have him on to find out would I be more open to his ideas and to him now? Hence today's interview as you may know We're doing a special series for much of this month during which we're celebrating the 10th anniversary of 10% happier quick plug I just put out a revised 10th anniversary edition if you want to buy it There's a link in the show notes as part of this series I'm going back and interviewing many of the main players in the book, and you're about to hear my first encounter with Deepak Chopra since the book came out. Just to say Deepak has a new book out himself, it's called Quantum Body, the new science of living a longer, healthier, more vital life.

His main argument about the quantum field is that it is fundamentally interconnected with our consciousness and our bodily processes, and you're going to hear me press him on that. But we also quickly move into areas that are much easier to understand and to relate to such as how Deepak handles criticism, how he regulates his own stress, and how he feels about death. Deepak Chopra coming up. First though, some BSP, blatant self-promotion. Don't forget, I'm doing a live podcast taping in New York City on March 28th. I'll be talking to Joseph Goldstein,

the great meditation teacher who will have just wrapped up his annual three month solo silent meditation retreat. So we'll talk to him about what he learned. I'll also be talking to Dr. Mark Epstein, a Buddhist therapist who's been on this show many times and has been a great friend to me and a mentor for many, many years. There will be a band there, Mates of State,

and you'll have one of your first opportunities to buy 10% happier merch, which we just started making. Oh, and finally, if you come early and pay a little extra, you can get a VIP ticket where you can get a guided meditation from me and a Q&A. Tickets on sale right now at symphonyspace.org. We're doing this event, by the way, as a celebration of the 10th anniversary of a book I wrote called 10% Happier. Shortly after I wrote the book, I not only started this podcast, but I co-founded the 10% Happier App. And in celebration of the

10th anniversary until the end of the month, you can get the app for 40% off. Get this deal before it ends by going to 10%.com slash 40 and dive into guided meditations and insightful courses designed for you. That's 10%. One word all spelled out. Dot com slash four zero for 40% off your subscription. When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent. Check out Audible Canadian originals, including The Downloaded, a sci-fi adventure featuring Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free

trial at audible.ca. I'm Peter Francopern and I'm Afrohh. And we're here to tell you about our new season of Legacy, covering the iconic, troubled, musical genius that was Nina Simone. Full disclosure, this is a big one for me. Nina Simone, one of my favourite artists of all time. Somebody who's had a huge impact on me, who I think objectively stands apart for the level of her talent, the audacity of her message. If I was a first year at university, the first time I sat down and really listened to her and engaged with her message, it totally

floored me. And the truth and pain and messiness of her struggle that's all captured in unforgettable music that has stood the test of time. I think that's fair, Peter. I mean, the way in which her music comes across is so powerful, no matter what song it is. So join us on Legacy for Nina Simone. Deepak Chopra, welcome to the show. Thanks, Dan. Congratulations on your latest book, number 94. Deepak Chopra, welcome to the show. Thanks, Dan.

Congratulations on your latest book, number 94. That's mind-boggling to me, as somebody who's only on book number three. But congratulations. Thank you. So can you describe what the thesis is of your latest book? The thesis of the latest book is that beyond what we call body mind is a field of awareness that correlates everything with everything else. That when we get to

this ground state of our experience, there's perfect homeostasis. So in the last 35 years there's been a lot of research on epigenetics and also on meditation. And in the year 2012 we did a study at our center that included scientists from Harvard, included the Nobel Laureate, Elizabeth Blackburn from UCSF, Mount Sinai, Duke University, where after a one week meditation retreat, we looked at gene activity. And in one week, all the genes that were responsible for self-regulation or homeostasis, which is the body's fundamental state of balance, the dynamic non-change in the midst of change. Blood sugar has to remain with us at a certain level, body temperature, insulin levels, endocrine hormones.

All the genes that were responsible for self-regulation went up some 17-fold. All the genes that were responsible for inflammation and also associated with chronic illness like Alzheimer's, heart disease, chronic things like coronary artery disease, autoimmune illness, wound healing, they went down. The genes that were causing distress went down.

The genes that were causing in one word healing or self-regulation went up. So this was astonishing. Now since then many many studies have replicated these studies that mindfulness, meditation, self-inquiry, self-reflection, vagal stimulation, all these things actually change gene activity. They bring down inflammation. They change the genes that are responsible for disease. They decrease the activity of the genes that are responsible for disease, increase the activity of the genes that are responsible for self-regulation. Many, now it's accepted. I mean if you go Google this or AI this, there's no question. If you ask Google Bard or chat GPT, does meditation change gene expression? One says yes. Do

our thoughts, do our feelings, do our emotions, do our imagination change in expression? The answer is yes. So basis of this book is that if you get to the ground state of experience, if you get, you know, thoughts, feelings, sensations, images, and the mind goes into almost stillness or close to stillness, then self-regulation kicks in. So the book describes various modalities that are now accepted. This is going to be the first of many times where the limits of my scientific understanding will become very obvious. So I apologize in advance for that. That's okay.

So help me understand something. As I understand it, many of the things you just said are uncontroversial, that meditation can have a deep impact on our physiology. However, the book is saying something that goes a little bit further, if I understand it correctly, which is that through our minds, we can impact the quantum level of our body, meaning the subatomic level of the makeup of our body, the spinning particles that exist below the level of the atom. Is there a difference between those two things? Not mind, Dan. If you want to use a word, you should use consciousness. So mind is an activity in consciousness, a modified activity in consciousness. Cons mind is an activity in consciousness,

a modified activity in consciousness. Consciousness is the ground state of experience. When the consciousness fluctuates, then it produces what we call qualia. Qualia means units of qualities of experience, the color red, the taste of wine, the smell of garlic, these are commonly cited examples of qualia. So qualia is a unit of experience.

Quanta, on the other hand, is an energetic fluctuation of the quantum field. So if you ask again, these are easy to do research because of AI and things, Aqualia and quantum complementarities, do they correspond to each other? You'll get different views. If you go again on the internet and explore, is the quantum field subjective? The answer will be usually no. Then you ask, is it self- regulating? The answer is yes. Then you say, you know, it depends on the prompt.

If it's self-regulating, can it be self-aware? The answer is number of people think so. Is there such a thing called quantum consciousness? A minority of quantum scientists believe there is. So, of course, every time I say something, it's controversial. I'm known for that. But, you know, 35 years ago, when I wrote quantum healing, it was totally ridiculed. And there was no epigenetics. And when epigenetics came out as a science 20 years ago, my good old friend Richard Dawkins said, it's the fad of the day. He's quoted up that now, you know,

epigenetics is totally accepted that every experience, including the experience you and I are having right now, is triggering gene activity in your frontal cortex. If this was an emotional conversation, you would see gene activity in the limbic system. If you were threatened in a terrorist attack, you would see gene activity in the reptilian brain. So it turns out that at a very fundamental level, gene activity is regulated by the fluctuations of consciousness that we call sensations, sense perceptions,

images, feelings and thoughts. The thoughts only one aspect of the total gamut of experience. So is the takeaway from the book that if we do the right kind of meditation, it will be good for us? Is that the, I'm putting in a reductive terms, but is that roughly correct? I think that's over simplistic. If you look at the last, let's say during COVID or before COVID, slightly before COVID, but in the last decade, the major breakthroughs in biology are number one AI, because you can monitor biological parameters through AI and give feedback. For example, I did a project with Fitbit recently,

where people were able to look at their heart rate variability and change it in real time through breathing and other meditative practices. So AI is a very big innovation. The second innovation is gene editing. 5% of our genes are totally fully penetrant for disease. So if somebody has a Baraka gene, like say Angelina Jolie had,

that predicts disease no matter what. Now soon we have gene editing for that. You'll be able to cut and paste genes the way you cut and paste emails. The third major breakthrough in science is what we call messenger RNA, which came along when COVID came and you know the vaccine that was developed through messenger RNA. But now we're going to have messenger RNA techniques of vaccines for cancer, etc. Soon, I was speaking to the CEO of Moderna and he said, we'll have vaccines for just about every chronic disease in the future because of messenger RNA. So that's the third big breakthrough. The fourth is the microbiome, which is two million extra genes you have in addition to the 25,000 genes that you have,

that your parents gave. So you only have 25,000 human genes, you have two million microbial genes. You can change that through diet and through meditation. That's the fourth major breakthrough. The fifth is psychedelics. And the sixth is vagal activation, which is the parasympathetic nervous system,

which is the longest nerve in our body, which now it turns out is the healing nerve. And you can activate it through many techniques, including yoga, breathing exercises, mind body coordination, changing your diet, exercises of various kinds. So we are entering an era where I, again, I mean, people will roll up their eyes, but we are entering an era where with everything we know from production science and then the holistic innovations that are now being actually documented through technology, technology has been a great boon

to be able to measure experience. Until now we could not measure experience. If you said I'm feeling compassion or love, there was no way to measure what was happening to vagal activity or to inflammatory markers in the body. But now that we can measure everything, I think in the next decade, you'll see that people will have longer

health spans, chronic disease might become optional, and we are seeing a new era and well-being. So my book is not just about meditation, it's about everything that we are now seeing in the field of biological science. Again, this is another point where my lack of scientific expertise is going to in the field of biological science. This is another point where my lack of scientific expertise is gonna become very obvious. So again, I apologize. But is it possible that one could hear those six, I believe breakthroughs that you just described

and say, okay, yeah, those all sound legit, but I don't need to believe in manipulation of the quantum field in order to believe in any of, and in fact, in practice, many of those exercises that you described. You don't need to, but you could also do your own research. You could go to chat, GBT, and say, does the quantum field influence gene activity?

And then you don't believe me. Look at what the consensus is is and you'll find lots of opinions including the opinions I expressed in the book. So back in the day when you first came out with this argument that the quantum field again our subatomic particle uh uh a layer of let's define the quantum field please I, can you define the quantum field for me or should I define it for you? The odds of me being able to define it are low, but I think it's just basically the particles

that exist below the level of the atom, right? The quantum field is a mathematical structure that defines the likelihood of particles popping in and out of the field as determined by something called the uncertainty principle. So that's the quantum field. And every moment the quantum field is, of course, pervades all of space-time, including your body. Okay, you can't get out of the quantum field.

And is the quantum field subjective or objective? That is the controversy. But if you go a little deeper, you can't have an object without a subject, and you can't have a subject without the object, they're entangled as an experience. So is the quantum field influencing our biology? And the answer is yes, you can look it up. Is it influencing genetic activity? The answer is yes, look it up. Don't believe me. But can we influence it?

Can I influence the quantum level of my own body? No, you don't influence it. You actually immerse yourself in the ground of all experience, which is what meditation does. See, meditation in the West has become only a recent phenomenon, but in Eastern wisdom traditions, meditation was for what is called Self-realization, which is going beyond your identity as a body mind to the source of the body mind, to the source of all experience. That was the original, you know,

these guys sitting in caves meditating monks, they weren't doing it for stress management. They were trying to understand what is fundamental reality. And if you read the descriptions of self-realization in Vedanta and Kashmir Shai Vism, in fact, actually, I just this morning, I checked out Erwin Schrodinger,

who described the wave function, which describes everything in the universe, other than Einstein's E is equal to MC squared. I think Schrodinger's wave function is the most important equation in the world. So I went into AI, I said, did Schrodinger believe that the fundamental reality of the universe was awareness? And the answer I got, if you want, I'll read it out to you. It's very fascinating. May I actually? Sure, of course.

Here's what I asked AI said, was Schrodinger a student of Vedanta and consciousness traditions? Erwin Schrodinger was a student of Vedanta and found its ideas to be consistent with the findings of quantum mechanics. its ideas to be consistent with the findings of quantum mechanics. Schrodinger wrote, quote unquote, the very essence of our being is not in an undetermined state, but rather the eternal self, at least until consciousness is distinguished. Consciousness is not produced by the brain, but rather appears because we are looking inward with our attention, light, light shining on itself. He wrote,

I can see only one escape from the confines of materialism. The world as we see it is a creation of consciousness. Schrodinger's ideas were controversial in his time, but they have become increasingly influential in recent years. Many physicists and philosophers believe that the findings of quantum mechanics are consistent with the ideas of non-materialist philosophies. So I'm reading you directly what I got from Googlebot. Really interesting. So I guess you're using that to point to the fact that you're not as far out on a limb as others accuse you of being? others accuse you of being? I don't care now. You know, I'm 77.

In my tradition, the first 25 years is you study. You're a student. Second 25 years, fame and fortune. So I can say, been there, done that. Third 25 years is giving back, been there, done that. I just entered my fourth quarter, which is preparation for death and self-realization. So at this point, I don't care what people think.

I've been in the room when you've been harshly criticized and you didn't seem to like it in the moment, but it seems like you... Yeah. Yeah. You know, it takes a while to go over that. You know, you remember you in the intermission with that debate that I had with Michael Schumer and Sam Harris, Leonard Milordner got up and he said, I'm a co-author of Stephen Hawking. And what you're saying is full of nonsense. So that made the headlines that lived on the internet still is there. I wrote to Leonard after that.

I said, you know, you understand quantum physics, but you don't understand consciousness. Come and meet me in New York. You teach me physics and I'll teach you consciousness. So we became best friends. We wrote a book together called War of the World Views, which became a New York Times bestseller. So that was very fortuitous for me that debate. And so you feel like in the years since the debate, you've done a very hard thing, which has gotten increasingly comfortable with being criticized, with being called a fraud, etc. Yeah, I have.

My next chapter is death. I mean, what's the big deal? You know, when you look behind in my life, I've had a very fruitful life. I've had a my life. I've had a very fruitful life. I've had a successful life. I've been vilified, but I've also, my critics have kept me in circulation, you know. So in a sense, I'm grateful to them. They've kept the conversation going. Last week, by the way, I was speaking about these matters at the Oxford Union in Oxford. and the reception was very warm. Not that everybody agreed but it was very warm. But you know, Dan, it doesn't matter anymore. You know,

when you're 78 and you're looking at death as you, and by the way, I'm really good health. So I can't say that I'm safe, but I do realize this is my final chapter. Coming up, Deepak Chopra talks about the concept of creative intelligence. He talks about breathing techniques, including vagal breathing and box breathing. And he talks about the benefits of imagining your own death. Hello, I'm Emily and I'm one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. And they don't get much bigger than the man who made Badminton sexy. Okay, maybe that's a stretch, but if I say pop star and shuttlecocks, you know who I'm

talking about? No? Short shorts? Free cocktails? Careless whispers? Okay, last one. It's not Andrew Ridgely. Yet, that's right, it's Stone Cold icon George Michael. From teen pop sensation to one of the biggest solo artists on the planet, join us for our new series, George Michael's Fight for Freedom. From the outside, it looks like he has it all. But behind the trademark dark sunglasses

is a man in turmoil. George is trapped in a lie of his own making with a secret he feels would ruin him if the truth ever came out. Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to your podcast or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app.

AirPods Pro with adaptive audio automatically keeps out the sounds you don't want to hear so you can listen to your music and lowers your music to let in the sounds you do need to hear. Hi there. Hi, what can I get you? I'll have a strawberry mango coconut probiotic smoothie with wheatgrass.

Anything else? Extra wheatgrass. Here you go. AirPods Pro with adaptive audio, available on AirPods Pro 2nd Generation when enabled. anniversary of the 10% Happier Book. We are offering subscriptions to the 10% Happier app at a 40% discount until the end of the month. Get this deal before it ends by going to 10%.com slash 40. That's 10% one word all spelled out.com slash four zero for 40% off your subscription.

Could I read your book, do the exercises you suggest and derive benefit from them, whether I agree with or even understand your argument about the quantum field? I think so, I think so. But being who I am, I can't resist invoking. Yeah, I'm obsessively compulsive,

but this has occupied three decades of my life. So, you know, in a way, it decades of my life. So, you know, I'm in a way it's probably my ego that says, gosh, I wish these guys academics would come around to looking at subjectivity as well, because you see, even to do science, you need consciousness. You can't do science without consciousness. Theories are conceived in consciousness. Experiments are designed in consciousness. Observations are made in consciousness. So, you know, this is a word consciousness. And then people argue about what is it. And there's a very simple definition of consciousness, which is, it is what makes experience happen, period. Without consciousness, there's no experience.

And then if you replace the word object, look at me for a moment. So if I ask you this, what's this? You'd say it's a phone, okay? That's an object. But before I can call it an object, it is an experience. And what's the experience sensation, sense perception, smell, taste, sound. First I have to have the experience, then I insert the human construct, it's an object and that it's an iPhone. So you cannot call an object an object unless you experience it in consciousness first. And then you can go all the way.

But that's not how scientists work. Science itself, I think, needs an upgrade. As does spirituality, because our ideas about God, this, that, the other, pretty outmoded. So spirituality should be understood as self-awareness and period, nothing more than that. So you have some confidence that science will catch up to your ideas, whether you're alive to see it or not.

I do. I do. In fact, you know, if you want, I'll send you and I don't have to. But if you want, I'll send you on my YouTube channel conversations that I've had with Nobel Prize winning quantum physicists who some of them dance around the edge some of them say nonsense and some of this is you know you might be right. Okay so let's talk about the other aspect of the book which I was hinting at before in some of my earlier questions which is some exercises that you recommend meditation exercises that, in my opinion, don't rest on whether I can grok or agree with the whole quantum debate. You use the term creative intelligence. Can you define that before we dive into some of the specific exercises you recommend? Creative intelligence is the idea that awareness modifies itself in an organized manner where our experience

of life is unified. So you're experiencing sense perceptions right now. So, you know, it takes a fraction of a second for light to enter your eyes. We don't know how that produces the physical experience of the universe, form and structure, but it takes a little bit of time for light to enter your eyes. For sound to enter your brain, it takes some other measurement. This is called the binding problem. How do disparate activities all come together as a unified whole. And some people invoke the idea that creative intelligence is what takes the unmanifest, which is totally irreducible, formless, spaceless, timeless, incomprehensible, unimaginable, fundamental. fundamental, that how does it turn into mind, intellect, ego, physical body, and experience

of the physical universe as a unified experience? I know that the term is unfortunate because then it invokes creationism and all of that. But creative intelligence is a term used in biology and again you can check it out on AI. And you list in the book some techniques for enhancing our creative intelligence. They include breathing, feeling, and seeing. I'd love to dive into these techniques and these exercises and get you to walk us through them. You up for that?

Yeah. So the first one is breathing. And I think it has to do with vagal breathing. Can you describe what vagal breathing is and how we do it? Yeah, I actually simplified vagal breathing in the book. It says box breathing. So you basically, you breathe into the counter four

or six, however comfortable you are. And then you breathe out to the, and always through the nose. And that stimulates the vagus nerve, which is the anti-inflammatory nerve, which reduces inflammation in the nose. And that stimulates the vagus nerve, which is the anti-inflammatory nerve, which reduces inflammation in the body. But what I introduced in the book is very basic. I personally practice vagal breathing

where I breathe in to the count of six, breathe out to the count of 12, hold to the count of 12, and then breathe in again, six. That gives me two breaths a minute. And when I breathe the two breaths a minute, my brain waves go down to less than four hertz, which is the state of deep sleep. So I could be talking to you,

but my brain waves would be deep sleep. But I didn't introduce that in the book because it would be very strenuous for people to do that. But just breathing in through the nose to the count of But just breathing in through the nose to the count of six and breathing out through the nose to the count of six, you will start to stimulate the vagus nerve and you can measure that. And you can actually, the best way to measure that

is through heart rate variability. So if you have an eye watch, you can actually look at your heart rate variability while you're doing the vagal breathing and you'll see it increases. So the more variable your heart rate variability while you're doing the vagal breathing and you'll see it increases. So the more variable your heart rate is, the more relaxed you are. The more fixed it is, there's like an army going to war.

That's sympathetic overjive. So that's vagal breathing. So let me just repeat it back to you, make sure I got it. Bagel breathing and the way you describe it in the book and there are variations is breathing through the nose to the count of six and the nose to the count of six and breathing out to the count of six. How long would one do that?

A few minutes, you'll see actually the effects on heart rate variability within a couple of minutes. Before I meditate, I often will do straw breathing, with deep breath in through the nose and then a much longer out breath through the mouth But as if you're blowing through a straw I have found it doing that at the beginning of my meditation for a couple of minutes and I don't time it But I have found that it I don't know what physiological effects is having but it feels really good and And well, you can't feel good without a physiological effect

Well, you can't feel good without a physiological effect. Well, you can, yes, but you can have an, I could take some sort of pill that would make me feel good, but it might not be good for me. Yeah, you could take alcohol or something like that. So, okay, so this, this vagal breathing is a very healthy thing you're arguing. And then you would also argue going through the list here from breathing to feeling to seeing that the feeling exercise you recommend is a body scan. Can you describe that? Okay, so if you close your eyes right now and you just actually start with feeling the sensations in your body from the inside out, that's the simplest thing. Now the fact that you can feel sensations from the inside out, that's actually Buddhist meditation. Instead of watching your breath, you watch the sensations. But in order to feel the sensations from the inside out,

your awareness must be inside your body. Okay. Now if you look at your body from the outside, then your awareness has to be outside your body. If you close your eyes right now, and let me try this, let's try this. Close your eyes and imagine snow-clad mountains. Now imagine a rainbow. Now imagine a beautiful red rose. Now imagine that you're singing, listening to John Lennon singing Imagine and hear the sound. Imagine that you're tasting a strawberry. Imagine that you're licking a lemon. Okay, open your eyes. So where's your awareness now? It's in something called mental space. In the first instance, which I do, I imagine my death at night, where I imagine, you know, my body being cremated, etc., etc. But then I can't get rid of the one who's imagining. So that there are three spaces that awareness occupies. Physical space, mental space and infinite space.

And I didn't go into that in the book because it's too esoteric, but that's actually a procedure where you realize awareness has no location in space or time. And that's what spiritual traditions call the spirit. Okay, so you can be in mental space, you can be in physical space, or you can be in infinite space. I simplified the exercises here because, you know, they're too esoteric and people get scared when you tell them to imagine their death and things like that. But I do that practice every day. I prepare for my death by going into this infinite space. You prepare for your death by imagining dying and what will happen in the aftermath or? No, no, no. One thing I can't get rid of is the awareness

or the consciousness that imagines. You see, when we speak of consciousness, it's not a personal thing. Your mind is personal, but consciousness is infinite. Now, in the old days, they called it God, but you know, that's the dangerous word these days. But infinite awareness is being accepted by some cognitive scientists,

that there's awareness outside of space-time. Where is this experience happening? This experience, you and I are happening. Where is it happening? You say in the brain, but there's no picture in the brain. You say in the eyes, there's no image of you and me in the eyes. The only place it's happening is in consciousness, and we can't locate consciousness,

so it's not in space-time. It doesn't have a form, so it must be infinite. So to go back to your dying exercise, Deepak lying in bed, imagining death and the cremation process. Hashes, cremation, everything. And then the move, the key move is to look for who is what or who is taking in this image. Yeah, what is it? And it's not a person because the

person is part of the imagination. Awareness is not a person. It's not personal. It's non-local. We can do this just listening to your voice or my voice, we can ask ourselves, what's hearing this? Yeah, exactly. And it's an impossible answer. If you look at current cognitive neuroscience, you can't answer that question. In the Buddhist tradition, we say the not finding is the finding. That is it. So when you say I go into infinite space, I think that's what you mean, right?

Yeah, nothingness. But nothingness is not a void, it's the womb of creation. It's organized. Well, okay, let me dig in on that for a second because that can sound esoteric and grand, but in my experience, looking for the looker, juster just you know if I'm hearing Deepak's voice or even hearing my own voice and I try to find what is knowing this it's right there on the surface that exercise does not require living in a Himalayan cave one can do that with zero experience and so you can put a lot of fancy words on it but it's actually pretty a grounded experience. And so you can put a lot of fancy words on it, but it's actually pretty grounded experience.

Yeah, it's a grounded experience and you're living in it. You know, there's a joke, two young fish going in one direction and the old fish coming from the other side and the older fish says to the two young fish, how's the water guys? How's the water today? And then they pass by and then the two young fish, how's the water guys? How's the water today? And then they pass by and then the two young fish say,

what was he speaking about the water? You know, you're so engulfed in this that you take it for granted. So back to your exercise of feeling this body scan. You said, you know, just close your eyes and feel your body from the inside, but you know. Okay okay, that was one, but you can scan your body, you can scan your muscular skeletal system. That's the other Buddhist exercise called the wheel of awareness. So imagine a wheel and the hub of the wheel is awareness. And the rim of the wheel has four

quadrants. The first quadrant is the five senses. The second quadrant is the muscular skeletal system and what is happening inside your body. The third quadrant is mental space and the fourth quadrant is relationship. Relationship with the universe, relationship with the whole wheel of... and then the wheel itself is awareness. To do it properly, you go through the whole wheel of and then the wheel itself is awareness. To do

it properly you go through the whole wheel of awareness. Awareness of the five senses, the muscular skeletal system and you're bringing awareness. See the awareness of an experience is intrinsically free of the experience. It sounds esoteric but just like the screen on which we are seeing this program is intrinsically free of the programs that come and go. The screen is permanent. So once you identify with the screen and not the programs, then you have this sudden equanimity because you're not caught up with the experience. So, you know, awareness itself is intrinsically free from the experiences in awareness. So the body scan, when done properly, it actually frees you from experience.

And it also gives you, as you write in the book, I always mispronounce this word, but I think it's interoception or interception or... Yeah, interoceptive awareness. Yeah. So here's this very interesting thing. We all learn interoceptive awareness as babies. They call it toilet training. You can teach interoceptive awareness to your cat or your dog. But the yogis have, why did you stop there? You can do that with your heart. You can do that with your gut. You can do that with your immune system. You can do that with your body temperature.

But properly done, intraceptive awareness gives you complete autonomic control of your body. Totally. Is that something that you're capable of? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can reduce my heart rate to less than 50. It takes a little, I'll show you something right now. Put your hands on your lap, open, and close your eyes,

and bring your awareness to your heart, and try it to the best of your ability to feel your heartbeat. You may not be able to, but you'll feel something. Now, when you feel you're ready, move your awareness to your fingertips and feel your heartbeat in your fingertips. And you should be able to feel some throbbing, something, a throbbing or a tingling.

Do you feel that? Yes. Okay, so that's inter-receptive awareness of the heart. Now, when you get good at that, you can slow it down, you can speed it up, then you can actually not only put it in your fingertips, you can actually put it into your entire body and then your whole body feels like a pulsing field of awareness. So there are many techniques, inter-receptive awareness, but you know, you have to be a yogi and you have to be doing this and you have to be a little neurotic like I am.

You're still a little neurotic after all these years of practice? About these things, yes. About these things, yes. Okay. Am I doing it right? You know, if I get to 48, can I get to 46? You know, thanks. I can increase my body temperature and cool it down too. So what's the benefit of being able to do that though? You know that you regulate your autonomic nervous system and that's ultimately the key to self-regulation, homeostasis.

Self-regulation homeostasis, meaning optimal health? Means dynamic, non--change within change. So, you know, we are moving around every day. You go outside your apartment, it's very cold. But you have to wear a fur coat or whatever, but you don't need to. You can actually regulate your body temperature. So these are ancient techniques.

Inter receptive awareness is a very ancient technique. Coming up, Deepak talks about the exercise of returning to your zero point and the concept of the body as a verb. Hello, I am Alice Levine and I am one of the hosts of Wondries podcast British Scandal. On our latest series The Race to Ruin, we tell the story of a British man who took part in the first ever round the world sailing race. Good on him I hear you say, but there is a problem, as there always is in this show. The man in question hadn't actually sailed before. Oh, and his boat wasn't sea-worthy. Oh, and also tiny little detail almost didn't mention it.

He bet his family home on making it to the finish line. What Insued was one of the most complex cheating plots in British sporting history. To find out the full story, follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Wondry Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondry App. The early 2000s was a breeding ground for bad reality competition series from shows like Kid Nation, CBS's Weird Lord of the Fliesies style social experiment that took 40 kids to live by themselves in a ghost town to The Swan, a horrifying concept where women spent months undergoing a physical transformation and then were made to compete in a beauty pageant.

Hi, I'm Misha Brown and I'm the host of Wanderer's podcast, The Big Flop. Each episode, comedians join me to chronicle one of the biggest pop culture fails of all time and try to answer the age-old question, who thought this was a good idea? Recently on The Big Flop, we looked at the reality TV show, The Swan. The problem. This dream opportunity quickly became a viewing nightmare. They were isolated for weeks, berated, operated on, and then were ranked by a panel of judges.

Follow the Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. One of the other techniques you recommended in the book, you shorthanded as seeing or strengthening your vision or awareness. I think the specific exercises returning to your zero point, what does that mean? Zero point is fundamental awareness. So you know, I was inspired long time ago

by a poem from William Blake. He said, we are led to believe a lie when we see with and not through the eye that was born in a night to perish in a night while the soul slept in beams of light. So normally when you look at certain people or anything, you look at it with the conditioned mind. Now, when you see from the zero point, there is no preconditioned labeling to sing. Now, a thing I do for fun is in New York City, because it's a nice city to walk.

I look at people and I can see them from birth to death. Fertilize egg, embryos, zygote, baby, toddler, teenager, young adult, old adult, all the way to dusty death. And then I realize there's no something as a body. It's just a verb for an activity in consciousness. You know, this is seeing. It is not perceiving but seeing, a deeper level of seeing. I love that exercise. Yeah. And I like the idea of body as a verb because we get so attached and then do so much suffering around our own bodies. Yeah, and when in fact your awareness,

if you go to, like just the bottom of the ocean is free of the turbulence of the waves on the ocean, like that the zero point is free of all these experiences that we get caught up in. And that's a very Buddhist thing that you get caught up in because you hold on and say, if you hold on to your breath, you'll suffocate. Hold on to anything you'll suffocate.

And we hold on to nouns when in fact they're all verbs. Yes, yes. Well said. One of the other phrases you use in the book is, I, the letter I, is a bad habit. What do you mean by that? See, I am Deepak is a provisional identity. I am Dan Harris is a provisional identity. But as all the, even in the biblical traditions, I am that I am. So I am is a common identity. When I stop identifying with the ego body mind and go back to the real eye, the big eye, then I'm free of the judgments that are

in the skin encapsulated ego body mind. So that is what I meant was I is a bad habit, meaning the localized eye, not the non-local eye. Can you break that down because I get a little confused at what's the difference between the localized eye and the non-localized? The localized is the conditioned mind. So as soon as you're born, you're given a name, you're given an ethnicity, you're given a religion, you're given a national identity, you're given an economic identity, a racial identity. Now you're screwed for the rest of your life.

You go to war for that, you know, what's happening in Gaza or anywhere else. But there is a deeper eye, which is a common human identity, which is non-local. It is awareness. So ultimately, awareness is the only real absolute identity. Every other identity is provisional, whether it's racial or ethnic or religious or economic. Let me see if I can say a few words that, and you tell me if I'm in the right neighborhood here. In Buddhism, we talk a lot about ultimate reality and relative reality. Correct.

On the relative level, on a conventional level, you're Deepak, I'm Dan, and we all have to put our pants on and we have driver's licenses with our names on them, etc. But on the ultimate level, if I look for Dan in my mind, I can't find him. You won't find him. Yeah. Yes. And so that is I think what you're pointing to here. That is exactly. And now with psychedelics, you know all the research on psychedelics. We are, our foundation is very involved in psychedelic research, particularly also for not only chronic illness, but fear of death, you know, terminal end of life care.

So what psychedelics do is they reduce the activity of a part of the brain called the default mode network. Now it turns out the default mode network is the neural correlate of the ego mind. And when that dissolves, they'd have this feeling of expansiveness and they even lose their fear of death. So that is a very interesting thing that actually corresponds to what you just said. No local identity. There's only one awareness. So the reason why, one of the reasons why I can be a bad habit is it makes you scared of the day when I no longer exist. That's it. But you never existed in the first place. Right. There's an expression sometimes that I've heard from meditation teachers that, you know, there's a scary moment

that can happen in meditation and in psychedelics where the ego dissolves, at least at the beginning that can be scary. And the analogy that sometimes used is like, it's like jumping out of an airplane. And at some point you you realize I don't have a parachute and that's terrifying and then you realize there's no ground and and that's the freeing moment. Yeah exactly. Are you afraid of death? No I mean I now I'm so reconciled but I know I also know that trillions of people have come before me and died. Why would I be the exception? The only thing I think we should aim for is healthy death, which in again, these wisdom traditions is

you finally say, been there, done that, you close your eyes and you take the big meditation. That's what the Buddha was supposed to have done. His last words were, this lifetime of ours is transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at a movement of a dance. A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky, rushing by like a torrent down steep mountain. So when he said these words, or supposed to have said these, Ananda said,

So who are you? Are you a prophet? Are you a messiah? And he said, none of the above. He said, who are you? He said, I'm awake. That was his last words. He woke up from the dream that we call everyday reality.

And it is a dream. Wittgenstein said the same thing. We are asleep. Our life is a dream. Once in a while, we wake up enough to know that we're dreaming. By the time you hear these words, they don't exist. If I asked you what happened to your childhood, you'd say it's a dream. But what about yesterday? It's a dream. Actually, if I try to look at yesterday or even this morning, it's as ephemeral as last night's dream. The whole thing is a dream. Would you call yourself awake or enlightened?

I don't know what enlightenment means, but I do call myself, I don't say it aloud, but I feel awake because I walk around New York City and see people take their existence for granted. They're not even surprised. I mean, they're like biological robots. And I don't want to live that kind of life, at least at my stage. I would say I'm awake, yeah. I'm surprised by existence. Surprise by existence. So that's one definition of being awake.

Yeah, surprised by, bewildered. You know, roomies had to exchange your cleverness for bewilderment. Yes, that seems like a very healthy thing to put out into the culture right now where cleverness and certainty are valued more than bewilderment. Yeah, listen, I spent all my life defending my point of view and then I realized it's just another point of view. What's your relationship to ambition right now? I mean, you keep writing books and putting things out into the world. I write books because again, you know, when I said I'm neurotic, I meant it.

I'm a compulsive, obsessive neurotic who's always thinking about these things. And then I feel compelled to write about them. But you know, I don't look as I used to in the past. I used to check the best seller list and all that. I don't look as I used to in the past. I used to check the best seller list and all that. I don't do that anymore. And as Googling you recently, you've done some deals with like a cruise line to bring wellness on board?

So what I did was I sold the company and so I don't actually have a business anymore. And part of the contract was when the cruise ship stops in New York, I'll go and give a lecture. I see. I see. So it might look on one level like you've got a lot going on, but actually it's a little calmer than it looks. Yeah. Yeah. My work now is on the foundation, the nonprofit we have. So peace efforts, longevity experiments, leadership training, things I do a course called the Soul of Leadership. And the Obama Foundation invited me

to do a course for their Obama leaders, et cetera. More of that now, no business. Business seems there, but I've sold it. I don't have a company anymore. What's the biggest challenge for you in your practice in life right now? Getting to detach so much that I want to detach and I won't be allowed to by my family.

Even if you want to detach from your family, they won't let you. So, you know, it's a big challenge, but internally I'm detaching. You know, you have to detach ultimately from this body and this life experience. So you might as well prepare for it. The balance is between letting go of this body of this life of accumulation, et cetera, et cetera, while remaining engaged with the loved ones. Yeah, it says do what you need to do, but don't worry about the outcome. It's a very traditionally yogic practice that, you know, they say karma, yoga is do what

needs to be done and forget about the outcome. I do my best. This has been really fun to catch back up with you. Is there anything that you wish I would have asked, but anything that you want? No, I mean, you asked all the right questions. Deepak Chopra, thank you very much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Dan. It was a privilege to catch up again. Thanks again to Deepak Chopra for coming on. A reminder, his new book is called Quantum Body. I should say this is episode two of our 10th anniversary series, celebrating 10 years since I put up my first book, 10% Happier.

Make sure to go check out the kickoff episode where I talk to my producers, DJ Kashmir and Lauren Smith, about how the book changed my life and the many things I learned during the course of writing it and subsequently. We'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. And we'll also drop a link to Buy the Revised 10th Anniversary Edition of the book.

It's got a new preface in which I reflect on what has changed and what I've learned over the past 10 years and a new appendix with some meditation instructions. 10% happier is produced by Lauren Smith, Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justine Davy and Tara Anderson, DJ Cashmere is our senior producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor. Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post production. And Kimmy Ragler is our executive producer. Alicia Mackey leads our marketing and Tony Magyar is our director of podcasts. Nick Thorburn of Islands wrote our theme.

If you like 10% happier, I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wonder.com slash survey. Airpods Pro with adaptive audio. Automatically keeps out the sounds you don't wanna hear so you can listen to your music. And lowers your music to let in the sounds you do need to hear.

Hi there. Hi, what can I get you? I'll have a strawberry mango coconut probiotic smoothie with wheat grass. Anything else? Extra wheat grass. Here you go. AirPods Pro with adaptive audio, available on AirPods Pro's second generation when enabled. Hey, grownups!

The Cat in the Hat Cast is a new podcast from Wondry, perfect for the whole family. Join the Cat in the Hat and your favorite Dr. Seuss characters as they get whisked away on a new adventure every week. Fish dreams of creating his very own polite and quiet podcast. That is until he gets a surprise visit to his Fishbowl podcast studio

from the Cat in the Hat himself. And it becomes very clear that the cat has other plans for the podcast. And those plans are the opposite of quiet. Sing along to new favorite songs, try your luck at Titanic Tongue Twisters, have some fun with wondrous wordplay, and most importantly, bring your family along for all of the adventures in The Cat in the Hat Cast. Follow The Cat in the Hat Cast on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the Cat in the Hat Cast early and ad-free on Wondry Plus. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Wondry Kids Plus on Apple Podcasts today.