Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Everything You Wanted To Know About Meditation Retreats But Were Afraid To Ask | Spring Washam (And Dan’s Close Friend, Zev Borow)

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

Am I a bad meditator if I don’t go on a retreat? What do they entail? How do I stay silent for days on end? How do I get into one? What’s the food like?Spring Washam is the author of two books, A Fierce Heart: Finding Strength, Courage and Wisdom in Any Moment and The Spirit of Harriet Tubman: Awakening from the Underground. She is also one of the founding teachers at the East Bay Meditation Center and is the founder of Lotus Vine Journeys, a one-of-a-kind organization that blends indigenous healing practices with Buddhist wisdom for transformative retreats in South America.In this episode we talk about:Whether or not you’re a bad meditator if you don’t go on a retreatWhat the specifics of a retreat entailsHow you stay silent for days on endAnd how to actually get into a meditation retreatRelated Episodes:Click here to listen to the previous episodes in our tenth anniversary series. To order the revised tenth anniversary edition of 10% Happier: click here For tickets to Dan Harris: Celebrating 10 Years of 10% Happier at Symphony Space: click hereSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/spring-washam-zev-borowAdditional Resources:Download the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/installSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Dan here. Before we start the show, I want to tell you about a live recording of this podcast that we're doing in New York City on March 28th. I will be interviewing two frequent fliers from this show, the legendary meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein, who will be just coming off a three-month solo silent meditation retreat, and Dr. Mark Epstein, a Buddhist therapist and best-selling author. The event will actually be a celebration of the 10th anniversary of my first book, 10% Happier and a percentage of the proceeds will go to the New York Insight Meditation Center.

Come early if you want for a VIP guided meditation and Q&A with me. Thanks to our friends over at Audible for sponsoring this show and the event. Tickets on sale right now at symphonyspace.org. This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings, how are we doing? I cannot tell you how often I get questions about meditation retreats. What do they entail?

Am I a bad meditator if I don't do one? How do I stay silent for days on end? How do I get into a retreat? What is the food like? And on and on. Today it's everything you wanted to know about meditation retreats, but we're afraid to ask. My guest is Spring Washam, who was one of the teachers on my very first meditation retreat back in 2010.

There's also a special guest in this episode who will pop in midway through. He's a personal friend who just completed his first ever retreat, and he has lots of thoughts and questions and funny anecdotes. This episode is part of a special series we're doing this month to celebrate the 10th anniversary of my first book, which is called 10% Happier. I just put out a 10th anniversary edition.

I'll put a link in the show notes if you want to buy it. The part of that book about which to this day, I still get the most questions, is the chapter where I go on my first retreat. It's a day by day blow by blow recounting of what started as a Zen death march and then became one of the most extraordinary and revelatory experiences in my entire life and then very quickly went back to being a death march. Like I said, Spring was one of the teachers on that retreat. At first, I was unfairly quite judgmental of her,

but then she ended up saving the whole thing for me. I was at a low moment on day four or five. I was seriously considering going home, and I went and met with Spring, and she gave me some advice that led to my first big meditation breakthrough. And in this interview, you'll get to hear her side of the story plus answers to all of your questions

about retreats. A little bit more about Spring before we dive in here, she's the author of two books, A Fierce Heart and the spirit of Harriet Tubman. She's one of the founding teachers at the East Bay Meditation Center, which is in Oakland, California. And she's generally amazing.

One quick audio note here, you will hear some instances of traffic sounds and sirens in the background, but it's not a big deal. Spring wash them and special guest coming up. First though, some BSP, blatant self-promotion. Don't forget, I'm doing a live podcast taping in New York City on March 28th. I'll be talking to Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher, who will have just wrapped up his annual three month

solo silent meditation retreat. So we'll talk to him about what he learned. I'll also be talking to Dr. Mark Epstein, a Buddhist therapist who's been on this show many times and has been a great friend to me and a mentor for many, many years. There will be a band there, Mates of State, and you'll have one of your first opportunities to buy 10% happier merch, which we just started making.

Oh, and finally, if you come early and pay a little extra, you can get a VIP ticket where you can get a guided meditation from me and a Q&A. Tickets on sale right now at symphonyspace.org. We're doing this event, by the way, as a celebration of the 10th anniversary of a book I wrote called 10% Happier. Shortly after I wrote the book, I not only started this podcast, but I co-founded the 10% Happier app. And in celebration of the 10th anniversary until the end of the month, you can get the app for 40% off. Get this deal before it ends by going to 10%.com slash 40 and dive into guided meditations and insightful courses designed for you. That's 10%. One word all spelled out.

Dot com slash four zero for 40% off your subscription. When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent. Check out Audible Canadian Originals, including the downloaded, a sci-fi adventure featuring Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca.

AirPods Pro with adaptive audio automatically keeps out the sounds you don't want to hear so you can listen to your music and lowers your music to let in the sounds you do need to hear. Hi there. Hi, what can I get you? I'll have a strawberry mango coconut probiotic smoothie with wheat grass. Anything else? Extra wheat grass. Here you go.

AirPods Pro with adaptive audio, available on AirPods Pro second generation when enabled. Spring Wash'em, welcome back to the show. It's my honor to be back with you. So we're talking about meditation retreats today. We've actually never, I don't quite understand why, we've never done a full episode or even much of an episode on retreats on this show, which seems like a version of malpractice, but we're making up for it now. I hope, uh, I, uh, let me start with this question. Cause this is a question I get from people not infrequently.

Am I a bad meditator? If I have no interest whatsoever in doing a retreat, it sounds like hell I'm not going to do it. Am I incurable? Yeah. That's a question I get as well. Well, I'm happy we're talking about retreats because I agree with you. This is kind of where a lot of your magic happened on a retreat, right? This is where we have breakthroughs and, you know, all retreats are meant to challenge us and you kind of have to be ready. You're going to be ready for renunciation. You're going to be ready to put things aside and you're going to be ready to go deep. So you could still be a great meditator andunciation, you got to be ready to put things aside, and you got to be ready to go deep.

So you could still be a great meditator and do 20 minutes or 30 minute practice every day. But if you're feeling like you want to go underneath the rug, take a deep or dive, retreat is the way to go, or you're looking for just more understanding, more a little just more understanding, more, you know, a little bit more depth and, you know, retreats are powerful, life changing for many of us. You use the word renunciation, that's a bit of a Buddhist term of art.

What do you mean by that specifically? Well, you know, these retreats, as you know, Dan, they're silent. That's one level of renunciation. You have to give up your technology if you really want to give yourself over to the practice, no cell phones and computers. And then we're really committing to following these practices of awareness and mindfulness. And it just brings us up against all of our habits. and we have to sort of contain those. So that level of, when I say renounce, it's not like you're going to go and shave your

head and start wearing robes. But for a lot of us to be without our phones and to be without this communication and endless talking and to just be with our minds, it can be a challenge in the beginning. It's like a, it's a shock. It's a, you know, it's like a 12 step. It's like, oh my God, you know, I quit my addiction. And then all of a sudden we're in the present moment. And then there we are, got to deal with it.

Yes. I know that feeling. Okay, so there are many different types of retreats, something approaching infinity. Maybe can you walk us through some of the different primary flavors of retreat so we just get a sense of what the landscape looks like? Yeah, there's so many different types of retreats.

So when people say meditation retreat, I think you and I have this frame of insight meditation and this kind of more Western, Theravada, Buddhist tradition where we focus on mindfulness, right, the four foundations of mindfulness, being aware of our bodies, our feelings, our thoughts and emotions. And we do this mix of sitting and walking in silence throughout the day. And there's usually a yoga practice and Dharma talks and meeting meetings with teachers. You know, that's what we were doing primarily at Insight Meditation Society, Spirit Rock Meditation Center in California. This is kind of a, I think it's a beautiful entry point. And then there's the go anchor retreats,

which are kind of a whole another level, the 10 day course. So people can sometimes be like, is that what I'm gonna do? And that's just all sitting. And there's a lot more rigor involved in that. There's a lot more concentration and a lot more structure. I mean, I think they even get you up out of bed if you're not at the meditation. So there's an intensity to that. But for, for a lot of people, I really think insight meditation retreats mindfulness based retreats, usually held

in noble silence, you know, outside of meeting with your teachers and essential communication. So it's not like you're going to get kicked out, but you know, we limit our chit chat with the other participants on the retreat. And we're just, you know, we're just really focused on the practice of mindfulness. I've got a statement and a question. The statement is just to pick up on your helpful description of the landscape of possible options when it comes to meditation retreat specifically. I'm not an expert in this. You know a lot more than I do.

But basically, as I understand it, in the Buddhist tradition, there's two quite well-known centers. On the East Coast, it's the Insight Meditation Society, which is in Massachusetts on the west coast. There's Spirit Rock, which is where I did my first retreat, where I met you. And there are some smaller centers throughout the country. And then there's also in a related but separate school of Buddhism, there is Goenka,

which was started by a guy named Esen Goenka, who was an Indian gentleman who I believe grew up in Burma or Myanmar and learned meditation there and then started a series of meditation centers all over the place. I know there's one in Massachusetts, I believe there are others not only in the states, but all over the world. And those retreats tend to be at least 10 days long and they're quite disciplined. They're all sitting instead of a mixture of sitting

and walking meditation and the schedule is really rigorous. At Spirit Rock and IMS, there are different lengths. You can go for a weekend, five days, 10 days. IMS has a three month, which you've done many of, you personally, spring. And those centers too have pretty rigorous schedules. I mean, you're up at 5.30, sitting by six,

and you sit for an hour, something like that. And then you have breakfast, and then maybe do some chores, and then it's a rock block of sit, walk, sit, walk, sit, walk until lunch, and then a little break again, or and you get a yogi job like cleaning pots or ringing bells or whatever. And maybe you do it after lunch or after breakfast. And then there's another sit, walk, sit, walk, sit, walk

until dinner, which many people skip for reasons you might want to talk about. And then more sit, walk, sit, walk, dharma talk evening. And then more sit, walk, sit, walk, and then bedtime. And if you're not sleepy, you can just keep sitting and walking. So that's the statement. Although I'd like to hear more about, you know,

if you've got some expanding that you'd like to do. And then the other thing I'd like to ask you about is noble silence. That's another term of art, noble silence. What does that mean? Right. Well, you pretty much did a great description of the insight meditation retreats. And then there's like the big mother, father centers.

And then there's a lot of other small centers focused on insight meditation all across the country. More coming online every day, insight, meditation, communities, sitting groups. If you just want to go to a weekly, more local group, you can find them there. It's quite amazing actually how many insight meditation centers. And yes, Gowenca is its own thing. And I think Massachusetts has a Gowenca center. California is like three or four. It's worldwide. It's actually Gowenca G did a great service and those retreats are who hard work. So maybe not, I don't know, I don't want to not recommend it

because a lot of people have gone there and then had, you know, that start of their journey because they just didn't know what they were kind of getting into. They're like, okay, Vipassana meditation, great. And then they go and then I trust wherever people land. And then within that, there's a lot of other kinds of meditation,

all different types based on ashrams and teachers and Hindu practices and yogic practices. So I think the noble silence is what scares people initially when they're signing up for a retreat because they're like, oh no, what if I need to talk to someone? What if it's not like you're being silenced? And that's also a lot of people used to be like, you won't silence me. You know, I used to have to explain, it's never silent in your mind. There's more noise there than anywhere. This is just like to calm down one layer of it. Right. It's not like your mind is silent. You know, in fact, it gets louder, right? Within a couple of hours of being there. And it's like, oh my God, there's a whole tornado

happening of voices and criticisms and judgments and commentary. That's very loud. So there's nothing ever silent anyone. If you have a mind, you're going to be busy practicing with it. But it's just to calm the, you know, the external. So we're not so focused on everybody else and creating an identity and engaging and talking about ourselves. So we're not so focused on everybody else and creating an identity and engaging and talking about ourselves. So we just kind of like cool that part out in order to help the mind find some stillness, right? To just, okay, I'm just going to drop in. I don't have to take care of people here. I don't have to figure out what's going on. These retreats work really well. I don't have to figure out what's going on. You know, these retreats work really well, you know?

Everything's tended to, the bells are ringing. So your job when you go on a retreat is just to do the practice. So it's easier in a silent container than, you know, instead of having a chatty launch and, you know, that can take us kind of out versus what the practices want to do is just drop us in more to the present moment.

Yeah, I remember my first retreat was 10 days and I remember thinking that silence maybe would be challenging and then two things became apparent. One is there weren't that many people there I was interested in talking to anyway. And the second is that that is no by no means the hardest part of a meditation retreat. The hardest part is meditating all day long. And you know, in the instruction, and you can maybe elaborate on this, is that it's not just about the formal meditation periods, the seated 30 to 60 minute chunks of meditation, and then the walking 30 to 60 minute chunks of meditation and then the walking 30 to 45 minute chunks of meditation. The instruction is to be mindful, to be deliberate, aware, awake, intentional through every activity of the day.

So it's really, there's no, there's not supposed to be any let up. Yeah, but you know, we know there's let up. As soon as people go in their room and shut the door, they up and down and go I don't have to be mindful right now You know, so we we know where they start reading books or you know looking at their stuff or whatever, you know We know we're all humans and it's a training, you know, and it's just like there's momentum with mindfulness But yes, the encouragement is to try to keep what we call that continuity going. You know, we have this crazy thing where in the bell rings, we can be very still, but then as soon as we hear the bell, I don't have to be mindful anymore. And we just like,

you know, it's like we just let out of a cage or something, right? And we just forget that we're practicing, you know, or that was it. I clocked in the mindfulness and we're not living a mindful life. We want to be integrated, right? We want to be, you know, I love Tich Nhat Hanh who passed away not too long ago, the Vietnamese monk and poet and activist and teacher. I used to say, it's just like gentle mindfulness. Are you, when you're washing the dishes, just wash the dishes or when you're walking, walk, and when you're sipping tea, sip. It all sounds so simple, but it's surprisingly challenging to do it. You know, so I look at it as like a game, like, can I be mindful while I make my bed? And then I get interested and where my mind slips off. Like, how did I end up in this Mexico memory? Where was that moment? You know, so we're just, I want to encourage

people as they're thinking about retreats to not try to aim for perfection. That's where we get sidetracked. We try to be mindful every second and we then start clinging and grasping and feel like a failure. And those are things that come up. I can't meditate. I couldn't nail it in one hour or so. I'm giving up on this practice for life. I'm thinking, you know, and people need to know that we're training. You know, we have a lifetime of distractiveness, you know, and delusion here. We're moving in a direction of more and more awareness. So, I always encourage people to take it easy.

I remember that's what I told you, Dan. I was like, just be gentle and natural. Just relax your mind. Don't try too hard. There's a striving that people bring from their work world into their meditation practice. I'm gonna get this done. I'm gonna fix this.

I'm gonna pay attention. It's just suffering. You can't approach your spiritual path like you do a work project. In the next four days, I'm gonna get to this place at this time. It just, that's a recipe for pain. Take it from me, I know.

You brought up our first one-on-one encounter at Spirit Rock when I was freaking out and thinking about leaving. And I've written about it as you know, and so I've been able to tell my story publicly. Do you remember that encounter with me? I mean, you see millions of people, so maybe you have no memory of it. But if you do remember it, what do you remember? I remembered it more after I read the chapter chapter because I didn't know who you were.

I just see these yogi and sweatpants coming in looking kind of overwhelmed, which is part of the reason the teachers are there, right? To be like, okay, let's work with what's coming up, what's happening, let's try to hold it. So I just remember having a really beautiful conversation, I think a long conversation was over 30 minutes and just trying to just reiterate the instructions of just presence, but without the striving and just normalizing what's happening. Like, okay, if you're feeling anxiety, this is normal.

Let's be, let's just name it and open to it. And a lot of times it's the resistance to what is happening that is all the suffering. Once we stop resisting, everything opens up. And so I remember when you left, I think you just felt a little bit more calm because it was like, Dan, this is okay. What's happening? The moment's actually okay. What you're experiencing is okay. This is normal. This is stress. This is fear or this anxiety or overwhelm or, you know, these feelings and

wanting to run from them also okay. Right. That's what we do. All of us. So I just remember being like, this is great. We can work with this. Let's just feel it. And I remember you having like this revolutionary look on your face, like feel this. You were like, I was like, yeah, let's just be feel it. And I remember you having like this revolutionary look on your face like feel this

You're like I was like, yeah, let's just be with it. That's mindfulness mindfulness isn't looking For a certain thing to pay attention whatever is present. We can meditate with it by just being aware Yeah, you really saved me I mean, I was I was just grinding and hustling and trying to win at meditation and just pushing and pushing and pushing. And you basically diagnosed my ailment very quickly and concisely. First of all, I'd been telling all these stories in my head about you. You know, you, this is, this, this woman is, you know, like the epitome of all the spiritual cliches. I don't like her and then but I couldn't get an appointment with Joseph Goldstein who was running the retreat.

So I got an appointment with you and I walk in, you know, not so hopeful and you immediately just very wisely cut through all of my nonsense and you're like, dude, you're trying too hard. Just relax. You don't have to push that hard. Just be with whatever's coming up. You don't have to push that hard. Just be with whatever's coming up. And then I walked out of there and went into the most glorious meditation session of my entire life, which I then rhapsodized about in a book.

And Joseph Goldstein sent me an email after the book came out. He was teaching the annual summer retreat at Spirit Rock and he wrote, I'm at the place of your great enlightenment. I'm surprised they haven't put up a plaque. Yeah, the gratitude plaque. We talked about silence. Let's talk about some of the other rules

because I think people are curious about the blocking and tackling of this. You're not supposed to read books, no sex, no eye contact, and no talking even at meals. A lot of people skip dinner for some reason. Can you talk about some of these details? Yeah, well, you know, the meditation retreat centers, they're kind of operating as like a pop-up ashram

or something pop-up. So we do have these rules. And I think the no eye contact is, it's not like it's held with a real intensity. It's just because so many of us communicate with our eyes and there can be a lot of flirting, you know, people fall in love on these retreats or they, they try to engage people with their eyes, like, you know, looking around a lot. It's just like a little bit of reminder. Okay.

No intense staring at each other. That's just like, you're meant to be on a solo journey with a group of people. You know, you're meant to be having an experience with 50, 75, even 100 people, but you're sort of like in your own, your own space. So no eye contact or the encouragement to become aware is just like, again, it's just pulling in your own energy. It's just like, it's creating kind of boundaries. So, you know, cause we're all sitting close together for 10 days. Like, so there's an intimacy actually to meditation retreats, you know,

side by side, hour after hour, you're listening to people laughing or wailing or tears or, you know, there's a, you know, you see them in the bathroom in the morning with their robe on, you know, there's like, there's something so human about it. We're all sitting there trying to be present. So some of these guidelines are just ways that over the years, it just helps while you're on a group retreat of that side. So it's different when you're doing a solo retreat, obviously. So yeah, and then at the meals, the meal times are held in silence because the retreats are held in silence, but I'll have to admit for me,

the meals is the most awkward part of the silence sitting with a group of 7,500 people very close and we're all eating our tofu and rice and we're just kind of eating and chewing. And yeah, it's awkward. You just gotta open to that. But after a few days, you get in the flow of it. But yeah, it seems, it's kind of comical at first. I thought you had a funny part in your first book

about running down to the kitchen and you're like binge munching on rice cakes, like to deal with your, yeah. So there's snacks there. It's not like, you know, the food is amazing and nourishing and you can eat at different times, but, but you know, the meals, you gotta, it's, we're not used to that. We're used to, you know, mealtime being a social hour.

So that's a little challenging for me. I completely agree with you about silent meals being a social hour. So that's a little challenging for me. I completely agree with you about silent meals being a little awkward. Also that the food is generally good at the places that I've been to. It's vegetarian, but they do a good job with it. And there are snacks. So it's, I mean, you can have some rice cakes if you want. So it's not like, and more than rice cakes, I mean, there's definitely, you're not meant to like suffer in this regard because there's so many other ways to suffer

in that environment. What about dinner? Why do people skip dinner? Not everybody, but some people. Oh, right. So a lot of times, sometimes people are following more of a monastic precept around not eating after the noon meal.

And that kind of is just really optional for people based on their bodies, their health, their practice, where they are. They just have breakfast and lunch and that gives us more energy for the evening. You can't eat heavy when you're doing a meditation retreat and want to stay awake, you know. It's like, you eat three huge meals a day. That could be a lot. So there's always an option for some people. And again, this does different bodies, different people, different practices. At Gowenka, they just serve like tea and fruit for dinner. So a lot of

times people just eat a light dinner. And that just keeps your energy and you're not expending the kind of energy like if you're at a full-time work day and you know, it's a little bit different. So mostly it's in support and it's optional, you know, to skip dinner. And that follows what are the eight precepts, which is a little bit more of a monastic flavor where you even make a vow, I won't eat after the noon day meal. It's kind of follows the monks and the nuns, especially in the teravada tradition. So, but it's not mandatory. So don't worry, everybody, you're going, you'll get your dinner. Some version of it.

One of the things about silent meals actually is very helpful is for somebody like me who has a tendency to eat mindlessly and therefore overeat, really paying attention to the taste of the food, the chewing, when in the chewing process does the taste go away? All this weird stuff your tongue does while you're eating, like getting granular about the experience can have benefits that you can carry into your life to be a bit more mindful while you're eating. Yeah, I think mindful eating is like,

it's a revolution right now, right? Intuitive eating, eating till when you, you know, and a lot of that is paying attention. I know when I'm out to dinner and I'm in social settings where it's like a buffet and we're just chatting, yeah, we all eat too much. Yeah, so there is something about, you know, the invitation, again, this is the invitation

to explore mindful eating and being present while you're eating all this amazing food. Coming up spring and I talked to one of my oldest and closest friends about his first meditation retreat and what he found to be particularly annoying and also particularly profound. Hello, I'm Emily and I'm one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. And they don't get much bigger than the man who made badminton sexy. Okay, maybe that's a stretch, but if I say pop star and shuttlecocks, you know who I'm talking about?

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These can be extremely powerful experiences. However, it's hard to talk about that with too much intensity when you've done a bunch of them and it's not new to you. So you've been on a million retreats, you've taught them, you've sat them. I've been on way fewer, but a non-trivial amount. So I wanted to bring somebody in to the conversation

for whom this whole experience is quite fresh. Let me just say a few words about this guy. Zev Barrow is one of my oldest and closest friends. He was one of, if not the most valuable first readers of my first book and gave me an incredible amount of feedback and is actually playing the same role on my next book, which is taking me forever largely because I'm trying to fix the deficiencies

that Zev has very kindly pointed out. Zev is a very accomplished screenwriter, but the thing I like most about him is that he married an awesome human being and they have two of the most adorable, smartest, most creative, sophisticated daughters in the world. And for some reason, I did not push this on Zev. Zev called me a couple months ago and said he wanted to go on a meditation retreat. I was shocked, but he did. He did a five day meditation retreat. So I wanted to bring him on to talk about it. Zev, thanks for doing this.

Thank you. Thank you for the nice words about my family and me. You have the order correct. Yeah, I know. I know, trust me. So why did you want to do this retreat? God, you know, I don't, look, I've known you and I've meditated, I thought I'd really meditated but I was wrong really about that in the past.

And I know you've done them and I just, I don't know, it just came to me like I wanted to do something that would allow me to sort of, I can't go deeper, it's like a weird phrase, but maybe that is it or kind of evolve something. I knew I wanted something that was gonna potentially allow my path to change or evolve in some way. I just had a sense of it.

And I was like, okay, I'll do this. And I talked to you and you said, great. You suggested somewhere to go. And I just kind of was like, okay, I'll do that. I didn't think about it at all. And then as it was coming closer, of course, I started dreading it, but I knew very, very little about it. I decided I would like know as little as possible,

which I think was both maybe helpful, but super maybe unhelpful. And I just got up there and it was a crazy experience. It was the most interesting, in some ways, difficult, often excruciating, but ultimately profound and valuable in these strange ways I could not have seen coming. but it was wild. It was wild. All right, we'll get to the profound parts soon, but let's just start with the annoying stuff. So what was- Oh my God, that's all it is. The annoying stuff, but I told you this, like there's that Winston Churchill definition of war is long periods of boredom punctuated by brief moments of terror, and a retreat is long periods of boredom punctuated by brief moments of terror and

a retreat is long periods of excruciating, excruciatingness punctuated by brief moments of like profundity. So what did you find specifically, what did you find excruciating? Well, one, the silence thing, that's the easy part. Like I thought, oh, the science is going to be hard. The silence is nice. It's

the no input into your brain at all. Being silent is not hard. I didn't find it hard. It's the fact that nothing is being input into your brain. And so you're left alone to kind of process that in whatever way you process that. And it's at a really basic level, like

it's a level of boringness that feels like a weapon ox. Like you start, I started like panic, like you're just like, what am I going to do? How am I going to panic. Like you're just like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna think? How am I gonna get through this without input? Cause we're, especially if you crave input, like a lot of us do in one way or another, that goes away and it was that.

And then inside of that, okay, with no input, you're left with what you're self-generating, your thoughts, and that becomes, that goes in any one of a number of ways. For me, it was like, why is this so hard? Like I'm like recognizing a level of panic within myself. I'm recognizing something that genuinely at times felt like terror. I'm recognizing eventually sadness, and it was like, what is that?

Like, why am I feeling that way? And there's that, and then there's just like, literally, I was in a mode of like, okay, how am I gonna make it through this session? What am I gonna do next session? When am I gonna take a walk? How long can I take to make my bed perfectly? I was like, I need brushing my teeth became like a great moment

of the day because it was like something to do with a focus and a goal. And so I was sort of approaching it in this way. And sometimes that was taking over. But my sense about the retreat is like, however way you're trying to outfox it or outnavigate it, it's going to dismantle your countermeasures eventually. And you're going to then be sort of left

with some other things. Wow, what a description. Yeah, I know, it's amazing. I wanted to bring you in, Sprig. Like, well, we just jump in on that. What do you make of what he's saying? It's amazing. I think there's incredible accuracy in that, you know,

without the input of the distraction. It's like, what are we doing with this time? How do we, what does it mean to be present and then be with all of the things that come up? No, that was great. That description was existential. This is the story of our lives. This is like, what do we do? That was, I love it. You nailed it. Yeah, it's an interesting, I mean, I told Dad all this. I was like, I'm gonna leave. Every day I was like, I'm gonna leave.

I walked to the car like once a day and just looked at the car. And I was like, you can get in the car. You should just get in the car and drive away. And I had done very little meditating beforehand. And I was like, I'm wildly unprepared for this. Like, this is like 10 hours of this a day. Like, this is not an appetizer portion of meditation.

And you have to figure out how to be. And even the stuff you said about, like I didn't have this thing about thinking I was good or at it or anything. I was just literally trying to do it. Like, just try to do the process. And also, I had a rudimentary understanding of Buddhism before, like, a college, religions of the world course or something. And learning about the Buddhist practice as it relates to the meditation was eye-opening and wonderful.

But one of the things you take away is like, oh, this is like a diet. And in the way that if someone says gives you a diet and says, you don't really have to think about this diet. But if you eat this way, this, this and that will happen. And we know this because people have been on this diet for kind of thousands of years and the diet just works. We have like a sample study that's large. So all you have to do is kind of follow the diet. And it started to become clear that like doing it is being good at it. You just have to do it. And if you do it incrementally at first, you'll feel it and that became sort of clear to me. I've done a lot of yoga and physical yoga and yoga is kind

of like that. Like if you just do yoga kind of your whole life, something will happen with your body. If you just do this diet, something will happen. But I spent a lot of time also trying to outthink it, like think about all the reasons this was conceptually or intellectually flawed. You know, like, well, sure, if you put people in these kind of severe situations, is that in and of itself kind of like artificial? Your brain tries to come any way

at like figuring out why maybe you don't need to be on the diet. Yeah, this is great. Absolutely. Zev, what made you not drive away when you were literally standing at your car? You must have some deeper faith or something. Otherwise there are people,

series of people who leave. Just shame. I would have been like, Dan would have been like, oh dude, no I wouldn't. I felt like, no dude, you said you're gonna do this, just do it. It's not that long, just do this. It was much more trying than I thought it could be. But I got,

I had two moments that were unlike anything I had experienced that were very brief. And I told Dev this, it's not like I had them and everything was great. It went right back to be excruciating. Like the second, it was my little moment of profundity was over. But they were intensely valuable. And I think, in a way, life changing for me. Can you say more about those moments? I started to feel like a lot of sadness. And I was like, why am I feeling so much sadness? And I was like, why is this place so sad?

If this place is supposed to be full of people who are like figuring it all out, why is everyone around here look so sad? And why am I so sad? What is, why is it feel sad? No one's smiling and it feels like there's no joy. And you kind of talk about joy in the Dharma talks, but I feel no joy.

And I was thinking about sadness and why do I feel so sad? And I thought, is there some sadness inside of me that I haven't some repressed memory? Like I was like, really, what is it? I don't think of myself as a deeply sad person, but maybe I am. And then I was listening to the Dharma talks

and it was just about kindness. I don't even remember the exact thing that the teacher said on the Dharma talk, but I went back to my room and it was meditating. And I just, something just clicked in me. I can't even like get emotional if I think about it now, but that when you are unkind, it's one thing, you think I regret being unkind

to somebody else. I am sorry I did that, but what you're doing ultimately, you're causing yourself pain, and you carry this pain. And I was like, that's the sadness I feel like I feel like a well, a reservoir of sadness that is about unkindness that I've generated within myself through unkindness to others.

myself through unkindness to others. And it was a very powerful thing. And I'm wept like in my room, like uncontrollable for like 20 minutes. And it was, you know, while this happened, you're like, I, what the, this is nuts. Like what's going on? It was experiential, you know, like the other thing I thought about the retreat was you learn the sitting and the physicality of it. It's like you feel it. It's not intellectual. You feel it. And then it becomes an intellectual concept.

You can articulate it. And I thought, wow, I just learned, it feels to me like a pretty deep truth. And if you understand that, well, maybe that can help you be less unkind to the world and therefore to yourself and therefore have this reservoir of sadness be less than it could be. I mean, that that is a huge insight that interpersonal violence and I use that term in the broadest sense, is intrapersonal violence, right? That's worth the price of admission alone. Yeah.

The other thing I thought was like, you know, I guess you think, well, I'll go there and it'll be silent and I'll meditate and I'll be able to hear myself in a way. But I think what ends up happening is maybe for me, for like the first time is like, you hear your heart, not your head. Yes. You know, and that's a, it's wild because it's like, you hear nothing but your head. I, and so you hear this other thing that communicates in a different way and it's kind of like, it's wild. It's just a different experience.

But like I want to stress, I want to stress, these were very, very, very brief profound moments in a sea of excruciating, panic level boredom and pain. Boyd taken, boy taken. I just, I get, what's wild for me in this conversation is having known you for so long and having done lots of untoward things together. Like could you imagine 22 years ago when we met

that we would be having this conversation today? Well, you know, Dan, yes and no. I mean, certainly we were different people, but I think there's like a yearning in people for something. And even when you're younger, it comes out in weird ways. Like it can come out in behavior that's not constructive, shall we say. But I think we both were yearning in our way.

And that was obvious. And I think a lot of people have like a, like yearning for a feeling or for an understanding that they don't have eventually, I think leads people to just try stuff, to figure that out or access more of it Well said Spring what can I bring you back in here?

Me since I've said a lot about his experience on retreat and you really reacted to the head and heart thing that What's coming up on your side? Oh? I just love that That's exactly what we're doing when we're not listening to our head. Our mind is so forward. It's so loud. It's so dominant. And when it creates suffering and when we start to drop more into our bodies and our

hearts, it's just, yeah, we can hear things and understand. And I just, I'm really appreciating what you're saying, Zav, because I had the same type of first retreat, oceans of tears, pain, suffering, mixed with these incredible liberating moments where it was like, I could hear my heart. Like, there was another, there was something else going on other than my loud, insane mind. I guess we could say our true nature or something. The heart shines through, so I'm just appreciating your reflections. Yeah, and now meditating for half an hour is totally doable after that experience.

And I've been doing it almost every day. And I realize, oh, what that allows you to do is touch for a second every day some of those things that were much more present at retreat that you don't want to lose. You can access or get close to accessing them just kind of once a day. And even if they don't stay with you longer than those 25 or 30 minutes you're meditating, it's still this kind of, I think it's a cumulative effect. You know, it's like, damn, we were talking about it's like exercising, right? If you don't exercise for a day, it doesn't matter.

But if you don't exercise for a year or 10 years, that matters. And I think that thing of meditating, if you can do it and just do it, the cumulative effect of being able to re-access some of this stuff and evolve it, obviously, as you guys guys have because your practice is much further along is valuable and I get that now. Coming up we'll talk about the value of Dharma talks on retreat. A lot of people are surprised by the Dharma talks. How retreats can help reduce suffering when you get home, what is meant by the Buddhist

concept of faith, and how to actually get into a meditation retreat. Hello, I am Alice Levine and I am one of the hosts of Wondries podcast British Scandal. On our latest series, The Race to Ruin, we tell the story of a British man who took part in the first ever round the world sailing race. Good on him I hear you say, but there is a problem, as there always is in this show. The man in question hadn't actually sailed before. Oh, and his boat wasn't sea worthy. Oh, and also tiny little detail almost didn't mention it.

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provides a simple to follow code of personal conduct to start living life more freely. Get closer to the best you with Audible. Explore a wealth of well-being titles like Bestsellers, New Releases, and Exclusive Originals. Listen now on Audible. One of the things that I believe Xav has mentioned to me, and I've heard this from many people who are on their first retreats, and in spring I'd be interested for your viewpoint on this. One of the things that seems to surprise people on their first retreat is the value of the

Dharma talks. So in the evening, there are usually many teachers running the retreat, and in the evening, one of the teachers will get up and speak for an hour about some aspect of the Buddha's teachings. On my first retreat, after the first night, I started bringing a notebook and taking a bunch of notes. And I did not expect that to be so meaningful. Can you say a little bit about why that strikes so many people so powerfully?

Yeah, because I think, you know, and I was the same on my first retreat. The days can feel very same on my first retreat, the days can feel very long on a meditation retreat. And I would just hang on until the Dharma talk and then I would hear will wisdom. As you mentioned, Zev, this is a diet. This is a tried and true path, right? We use the word diet, but it is, um, you know, a lineage and the wisdom teachings are old.

You know, these Dharma talks are based on the, the polycanon and the suttas and just to hear it, it just calms the mind. And a lot of these teachings are also focused on how to be with our suffering, right? And we normalizing experiences and we're, we're, we're getting encouragement. It's like, you know, if you're on a fitness program, your coach is like, you can do it. We got it. Hang in there. You know, a few more or whatever, you know, and it's kind of like the

Dharma talks get you through that night. Okay. Next day. Here we go. You know, we need a lot of encouragement when we're experiencing suffering, discomfort, not being at ease or strong emotion. And when we hear the Dharma talks, I feel like they're so nourishing. I would just often hang on to the Dharma talks.

And I love Dharma talks. So in the retreat and outside of retreat, I just, you know, we have to be reminding ourselves of this deeper wisdom every day because we forget. Just like what you were saying, Zev, you're doing your 30 minute practice, just to touch into what you tasted of that beauty that, you know, the kindness or the heart every day. So the Dharma talks the more wisdom and practice we do on a daily basis. It's an influences us very powerfully. Yeah, I think the Dharma talks were so linked. I don't think you I could have had the same experience without them. It was very clear to me that like.

without them. It was very clear to me that the Dharma talks were sort of the sort of intellectual unpacking in some ways of the experiential stuff that you feel during the day and I very much felt like I needed somebody to help link those. Yes. Spring, how many retreats have you done and what's the longest and are you still doing them? Yeah, I love retreats. I just did a retreat over at Thanksgiving, a nine day, and that was really sweet. And I just did another one after that too, a four day.

So I mean, this is my lifestyle, but I don't know, Dan, it's been a lot. My longest one was at the Forest Refuge and was eight months. Yeah, it was eight months and it was really hard. But see what happens is you go through cycles. So it can be a long time of the good stuff, Zev, right? And then all of a sudden it turns upside down. Right. And then right when you're like, I'm getting in my car. I'm leaving. It turns good again. And then you have the joy in your heart and you're connected. So the length of the retreat, you know, it's sort of, I feel like the universe is compassionate. You don't get all suffering. You see, you get those moments, Deb, and you can ride those moments for a long time, you know. So, you

know, they have a magic to them. We, you know, they're, yeah, they live in us, those insightful moments that we have. So I don't know, I would think maybe 7500 somewhere in there, probably. somewhere in there probably. And I mean, I know this is a irrational question, but some part of me is like, well, maybe not irrational, but unfair. Some part of me is like, okay, you've done 75 retreats roughly and one of them was eight months long. Are you living without any suffering at this point?

No, unfortunately not. I still suffer. I still get caught, you know, and that's the thing, and I'm going to be really realistic with people because I thought at the end of these retreats, every one of them, that's it, game over, I've awakened something. I'm my first three month retreat. I was thinking, yeah, at the end of this, this is all I need, you know, but our lives are, you know, complex, our histories, our trauma. And it's a more of an integrated approach now, right? I do, you know, there's a lot of the mind, the body, the spirit, working with trauma, all of these things.

Meditation retreats alone won't liberate you, right? It's like we utilize those practices and into our lives, we must become integrated, right? We must become awake in our daily lives. And for me, it's just, you know, I always get so much out of every retreat. It's like layer after layer. But no, unfortunately, if I had no suffering, Dan, I'd be enlightened. Maybe at the end of this life, right? You know, but not yet. I can be really honest.

Okay, but if somebody's tempted to conclude after what you just said, well, the technology doesn't work. This is bullshit. I think it's important to say that after all of this time on the cushion, you're suffering meaningfully less than you were as you pulled up to your first retreat after, as I recall, having chugged a bunch of Mountain Dew and driven through the night after and wailing and weeping about a fight you just had with your boyfriend. Your mind now is quite different from the mind that pulled up to your first retreat.

Absolutely. I mean, that was a train wreck. I don't know if I would have lived much longer. I was so lost and so hurt and confused. I was also chain smoking too. And while I was drinking the Mountain Dew and sobbing on my way to my first retreat, by the way, so it's okay to arrive in an ambulance. 911. Most people do fall onto a meditation cushion, not in moments of bliss and wonder about, you know, how great everything is. A lot of times we

come looking for something deeper or we're suffering but with the comment about the technology not working I understand but what else do we have Dan? What's the other one the ego? Right try that on look at where that's getting us in the world, right? So I think the question is is this instant? No, and I think in our instant culture this instant, no. And I think in our instant culture, people frustrate themselves after five minutes of meditation and give up and go, I can't do what I'm thinking.

And I go, yeah, we'll try five days. It'll get easier. Or, you know, we, this is a journey, this is a lifestyle of awareness and waking up. This isn't a quick fix. And I think that's hard for people in this culture who want to do something that ends it that moment. So I'm sorry, everybody. I too wanted that. I hate to disappoint you, but this is it's spiritual labor here. Liberation

is like we're going against a lot of powerful energies internally and externally and We have to really work with them Compassionately so yeah, it's been a long time and I've learned every step of the way How does that all go down with use of like you hear that is that making more or less likely to go again? Oh my god. Well one it seems it seems like I spent a lot of time when I was wrestling with the whole idea of it when I was there thinking about like, is this worth it? Like if I feel so lousy, where does it come out ultimately? And what I think becomes clear, although you can kind of fight it, is even if it gives

you a tiny bit of something, that's better than nothing. And as you said, like, what's the alternative? Like if you went into this feeling like you wanted to change in some way, then your alternative is to either go back to the way you were or to try something else I suppose and you could do that. But though this may not give you the kind of totality of instant cumulative results that you want right away in this kind of storybook way, I think you do start to understand pretty quickly that things are happening.

I got a little somewhere, I had some little bit of insight. And so what's the alternative? This it is working. And I don't know if I ever thought about it in terms of like, oh, I'm going to be enlightened or I'm going to reach the end of the road. I was just like, could I be a little bit different? Could I feel a little more of the things I wanna feel? Could I process my day-to-day reality

with a little more ease? Could I be a little nicer to people in the world? All that stuff. And if you can, I don't know, it's kinda worth it. So do I take it that you are gonna go back? Well, this is what I said. I told you when I got back, I was like, oh my God, I never, I mean, it was the weirdest feeling

because you're like, I'm so happy that's over. I'm so happy I did it. I'm so happy that's over. And you have like a sick suspicion that you would do it again. But you're like, I need, I told Hannah, my wife, I was like, maybe it's like having a kid where you're like, that was not easy. But like, I guess I would do it again. And my suspicion is I would do it again. And my suspicion is I will do it again.

I don't have any illusions that it will be any easier. I know it will be, it actually may have a different, I may not have any like profound moments. You and I talked about that. But I sort of think I realize if I want to continue to learn some things or change or find this insight, like this is a diet, this is path, this is an exercise, this is something that I think can precipitate that.

And so yeah, I probably will. I mean, 10 days seems very long to me, but I would bet you one, it offers like a whole host of other rewards because it's unquestionable that your level of suffering while you're there, I think is intrinsically tied to what you get out of it. And I wish that weren't the case, but my sense is it is. And I wish that weren't the case, but my sense is it is. I mean, Spring, as I listen to Zav talk and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, what he's describing is the Buddhist version of faith.

So faith has is a loaded word in our culture and is associated with lots of stuff that is controversial. But in the Buddhist context, I understand faith to be quite a realistic grounded sense of confidence that this thing works. It might suck, but it does work and it is worth it. And so that's what I hear from Zev. Do you agree or disagree?

Yeah, like I think that that's exactly what I hear. And Zev, I want 10 days. I'm rooting for the 10 days. I'm gonna chant for you. And you can do it, Zev. And it's different. It's sort of good to have a horrible first retreat because the bar is so low, right?

We go into the second one with this openness, you know, and a little bit of fear. However- 10 days sounds long. It is long. It is long, but at the same time, with this openness, you know, and a little bit of fear. However, 10 days sounds long. It is long, it is long, but at the same time, you just said it yourself, the wisdom that you get, the nuggets, and that's the thing. This path, it changes you in the subtlest ways.

It's like it shifts your whole perspective, and it can seem like nothing happens. But then when you look back at six months later, you're like, oh my God, I'm living completely differently. You know, it's not the instant. It's like we move the dial slowly, slowly, slowly in the direction of our heart. So I, I'm loving this conversation. This is such a great idea, Dan. I think you're right. I would bet I have no doubt when I think about it. I have no doubt that more longer, more commitment would produce more, I guess, like for lack of a better word, results. That's not the best word for it, but more of an effect.

But it's scary. It's a scary thing to undertake. It's really one of these things that you're like, it's not that I don't think it'll work. I really believe in it. It's doing it that's hard. Yeah. No, I will say nothing to, I have no disagree with that. I mean, I do attend

days every year, pretty much sometimes twice a year, and I never fail to dread it. And I always reach the point that you described, Zev, of just absolute near panic levels of boredom and resistance. And then often what happens is I surrender. And sometimes because somebody like Joseph Goldstein, who's been a teacher to me and to Spring, will directly exhort me to surrender using that word or I'll sit down with Spring and she'll say, you know, you're trying too hard, you know, just relax, which is just another way of saying the same thing. You stop resisting this. And that's when, same thing, you stop resisting this.

And that's when, you know, you can't fake that surrender because I've tried, but if I can get there, whatever that even means, that's when interesting things can happen. The problem is if you wanna get there, that basically bars you from entry. It's like this fucked up video game where if you wanna move forward, you can't move forward. You have to be in this kind of neutral state. You're laughing spring.

Absolutely. You can't, yeah, you can't fake it. There's something very radically honest about mindfulness. It's a mirror. It's not going to show you what you want to see. It's going to show you what's there, what's arising, what's organic and natural. And then we have to make peace with our striving, clinging, wanting to surrender mind. Even that, when you start surrendering to it, it's so beautiful in a way. It's so real. It is. I was definitely blown away by particularly, I mean, the meditation is that again, that felt like the physical articulation of the Dharma stuff, but coming new to a lot of the Dharma stuff, like it was, I was blown away by the level of beauty contained within it, like blown away. I was just like, oh

my god, like this is, forget about everything else. Just this stuff is like, just extraordinarily beautiful and wondrous, just to even be told it. That felt like a gift. This is a hard question to ask because I don't want to put you on the spot. But is there anything come to mind specifically when you refer to the beauty of it? I think it gets down to this idea of kindness. Just this idea that like, what if the only priority to your existence was kindness?

Like really think about that. Like if everything you did, that was the goal. Like think about that on a molecular level is a crazy, simple, beautiful idea. And then to think about how far one might be from that. But just this idea that somebody came up with that idea, and that idea blossomed enough to be a multi-thousand-year-old practice with millions of... Just the fact that that even happened on the planet, I was just like, wow, that's a score one for humanity. Well, knowing you as I do spring, I can only imagine what happiness producing power those

words might have on you. Yeah, because that's the goal that really is, right? That's the Dalai Lama's, you know, my religion is kindness. How many times does he say that? This religion is kindness. And if we adopted that, wow, on a molecular level, I love that stuff. Yeah, beautiful. I feel also happy to be in the club of trying to be kinder every day to myself, to the animals around me, to the birds, to the people. Yeah,

beautiful. Spring as we vector toward the end of our time together, let me ask you some practical questions. I imagine if people have listened this long, that they might be thinking, well, how do I go on a retreat? And the bad news here is that it's very hard to get into a retreat. IMS, which we've talked about, which is where Zev went, the Insight Meditation Society, and Spirit Rock on the West Coast. You know, you have to essentially enter into a lottery to get into one of their retreats, at least for most of them.

And there are other options. There are Tibetan centers and Zen centers and the Galenca centers. And so there are other options, but there's no like one clearinghouse for finding a retreat, figuring out which one works for you then getting in. So what practical advice could you share with us for for anybody who's interested in doing this thing? Yeah you have to just really set your mind to applying. There often there is a couple months of wait list for some things. You've got to look at your schedule ahead of time and know when the date is for the opening of the retreat. You know, this is with going to, too.

I mean, you gotta, if you don't make it within two or three hours of the opening, you know, moments you're on the wait list. It just goes to show you that if anyone out there is listening, we need on the waitlist. It just goes to show you that if anyone out there is listening, we need to build meditation centers. We need them in every city, massive centers where people can come and learn these practices, learn these techniques. We don't have enough for the amount of people who are learning this. So plan early, figure out where you want to go, be diligent.

And if you are, a way will be made for you. I feel absolutely like that, you know, if you wanted, you visualize it, you're going to get into one of these retreats and just keep working at it. But there is challenges in some of these bigger centers with the, they're not having as many retreats as they used to have either. Many places are kind of coming bigger centers with the, they're not having as many retreats as they used to have either. Many places are kind of coming back from the COVID, you know,

shut down into creating more and more of these schedules. But, but yeah, I can't say that it's easy. But if you want to go away, we'll be made. Have faith. Just to say in spring knows this, that I am certainly thinking in collaboration with Spring about how to expand the offerings by putting on retreats myself, and perhaps in collaboration with Spring, we're deep in conversations about that. And also, I know that there are major retreat centers that are thinking about expanding what they can do. So

help is on the way, but it's not, um, it's not going to be instant to call back to something that spring said earlier about the meditation itself. But just before I let you guys go, spring, I'll start with you. Is there anything that you were hoping to talk about that? It didn't, you know, bring us to, you know, I think this conversation was so honest about meditation because I think it can be misunderstood and we see these list out super models on magazines meditating. But Zev, you told the truth. It's not like that. This hard work,

everybody. This is deep. This is meeting yourself. So I love that part. So other than that, this is a beautiful conversation. Zev, what about from from you is there anything you were hoping to talk about that we didn't get to No, it's it was remarkable experience. I I thank you because it wouldn't have happened I think without you and I am very happy I did but it's funny because I think this came up with us before it's like Someone said I was at dinner and it's like, are you gonna be like the person now that tells everybody that they have to go on a retreat? And I really mean this.

I couldn't in good, like I don't think I would want to be the person who was like, you have to go. Like it is a serious thing. It could very well be excruciating. And if you want to go, awesome, go. It is a serious thing. It could very well be excruciating. And if you want to go, awesome. Go. But you got to want to go. Don't go for somebody else. Because you don't want to get there and be like, I am here and I'm blaming this person who said it was going to go. And you should go. It would be great if everybody went, but it's your everybody's own call to me.

I totally agree with that. And if memory serves, you were searching for ways to blame me even though I didn't try to get through. I know, I was like, wait a second, did he tell me to do this? I was really like, I will. I was trying to think if anybody told me to do this, but you never did and nobody else did. And I was like, you if anybody told me to do this, but you never did, and nobody else did.

And I was like, you have only yourself to blame, which is why you're here in the first place at writ large. Well, this was a huge pleasure. This was a complete experiment bringing Zev into this. I am really happy with the results, and I just very grateful to both of you for doing this. Thank you. Aw, you're welcome.

Thank you, it was fun. Thanks again to Spring Washerman, Zev Barrow. So great to talk to those guys. Again, this is episode three of a series we're doing to celebrate the 10th anniversary of my book, 10% Happier. I'll put links to the previous episodes of this series in the show notes and I'll put a link to buy the book if you want to buy it. 10% Happier is produced by

Lauren Smith, Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justine Davy and Tara Anderson, DJ Cashmere is our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor, Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production and Kimi Regler is our executive producer. Alicia Mackey leads our marketing and Tony Maggar is our director of podcasts. And Nick Thorburn of Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10 percent happier, I hope you do. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon music.

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