Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Fight Right: The Science of Healthy Conflict | Drs. John and Julie Gottman

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Conflict doesn’t have to suck. These iconic relationship researchers tell us how. Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection is the name of a new book by esteemed guests Dr. John Gottman and Dr. Julie Gottman.They are the co-Founders of The Gottman Institute and have completed over 40 years of research with more than 3,000 couples. John is the researcher; Julie the clinician. They have written several books together, including Eight Dates and The Love Prescription.Even though the majority of the Gottmans’ research is on couples, the advice is applicable to all types of relationships.  In this episode we talk about:The three principle conflict stylesWhy we often don’t understand what it is we’re fighting aboutPerpetual problems vs. Solvable problemsWhy the first three minutes of an argument are key The simple sentence to use at the beginning of an argumentHow to downregulate defensiveness in an argumentWhy the Gottmans’ believe there is no such thing as constructive criticismWhy apologizing quickly isn’t always the right moveWhen a fight might spell the end Related Episodes:Dan Savage on how to handle disappointment in your relationships, how to get better at sex, and why “a couple” is an IllusionLori Brotto on mindful sexDevon and Craig Hase on how not to be a hot messMyisha Battle on love, sex, dating, and relationship mythsSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFor tickets to Dan Harris: Celebrating 10 Years of 10% Happier at Symphony Space: click here Full Shownotes: http://tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/gottmans-726See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings. How are we doing? For me, and I do not think I'm alone here, one of the hardest parts of any interpersonal relationship is when you get into a fight. Spouse, romantic partner, colleague, friend, kid, parent, doesn't matter. Conflict often sucks. I cringe when I think about all the dumb shit I've said in the various fights I've been in over the years. But conflict does not have to suck. It can actually be a profound opportunity for progress, closeness, mutual understanding, and all that good stuff. In the psychological literature,

there's actually a difference between healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict. And today we're gonna talk about how to engage in the former and avoid the latter. In essence, how to fight right. Fight right is actually the name of a new book by my esteemed guests today, Dr. Julie Gottman and her husband, Dr. John Gottman. Julie and John are the co-founders of the Gottman Institute. They've completed more

than 40 years of research with more than 3,000 couples. John is the researcher, Julie is the clinician. They've written several books together including eight dates and the love prescription. And as I mentioned, their new book is called Fight Right. This is, I think, the perfect conversation for Valentine's Day. And, but, even though the majority of the Gottman's research is on couples, the advice here is applicable to all types of relationships. Quick rundown of what we talk about here, the three principle conflict styles, why we often don't understand what it is we're fighting about, perpetual problems versus solvable problems,

why the first three minutes of an argument are key, how to minimize your defensiveness, why they believe there's no such thing as constructive criticism, why apologizing isn't always the right move, and when a fight might actually spell the end. And much more. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before

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We're gonna bring our families down to see Inter Miami play some soccer. Glenn and I both have boys. Our boys really wanna see messy play. So anyway, I'm really looking forward to all staying in the same place instead of being in hotels where we maybe run into each other once in a while. I love the intimacy of all being in the same place instead of being in hotels where we, you know, maybe run into each other once in a while. I love the intimacy of all being in the same house.

It's really cool. Uh, maybe you're planning a ski getaway this winter or you've decided to go someplace warm while you're away. You could Airbnb your home and make some extra money toward the trip. It's a smart and simple way to use what you already have. Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca. When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000

titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent. Check out Audible Canadian Originals, including The Downloaded, a sci-fi adventure featuring Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca. Welcome to the Salmon Billy Show. Each week we'll be taking you behind the scenes of our lives and have a good old gossip about everything. We're going to be covering it all from date nights, holidays and parties, house renovations and the school run. Oh, don't remind me, I've got to do that after this. And we want to hear from you guys.

So if you've got any burning questions or are looking for some life advice, make sure you get in touch. New episodes are released every Tuesday, so if you haven't already, make sure you're following the Sam and Billy Show wherever you listen to your podcasts. Doctors Julie and John Gottman, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Dan. Thank you. Congratulations on your new book.

It's called Fight Right. And one of the principle animating ideas is that we need to fix the way we fight based on what are you arguing that? Oh, gosh. Based on the fact that people have become more polarized in this country. People are fighting with hate rather than kindness. Families themselves who've had a difficult relationship

are getting worse in terms of how they fight. There's a lot more criticism, a lot more contempt. And all of that can be changed if people just know the alternatives. The alternatives meaning that there are skills that will help you engage in conflict in a way that can stop it from going down the toilet. Exactly. Right.

A key argument you're making here is that no conflict is not the answer. Yeah, conflict is a very natural part of all relationships. You know, we've even studied identical twins and they have conflict, they're genetically identical, but you know, even with your clone, there's disagreement just because there's two brains in a relationship and the probability

that they'll be in sync is very low. So conflict is inevitable in all relationships and if you avoid conflict, then what's likely to happen is that you're suppressing important parts of what you feel a need from your partner and that inevitably leads to loneliness in the relationship and that in the relationship. And that makes the relationship vulnerable to other outside relationships. I've sometimes heard people talk about healthy conflict on the one hand and high or unhealthy

or destructive conflict on the other hand. Do you agree with that, taxonomy? I certainly do. Healthy conflict is actually what the successful couples of the 3,000 couples we studied practice. That's what they do. And typically what they do is they describe themselves, their own feelings, their own needs, sometimes their own dreams, their own values, their own ideals. Thus, in that kind of conflict, people are really connecting with one another, getting to know one another at a deeper level. However, in

unhealthy conflict, the speaker is oftentimes describing the other partner in very negative terms with criticism, put-downs, contempt, to which that other person is gonna respond with defensiveness or going into fight or flight and shutting down. That is unhealthy because it leaves a feeling of alienation and feeling misunderstood, sometimes feeling invisible. And it's very painful for both people. So part of what we say in this book is that conflict has a goal.

And it's a very un-American view because the American view typically is when there's conflict there's trouble and that the relationship is in trouble when there's a lot of conflict. But we think conflict has a goal and that is mutual understanding. So all of our methods are designed to get people to mutual understanding, which leads to more emotional closeness as a result of the conflict, rather than distance and alienation. You talk about the 3,000 couples you studied. What does that look

like? You bring people in, videotape them having fights and then just study the tape afterwards? Well here's what it looks like. It's a little bit more complicated than that. Just a wee bit. People, yeah, people come into a lab and they're sitting typically facing one another and they're sitting, typically facing one another, and they're being videotaped on a split screen monitor. So they're being each videotaped individually as well as together. They're also hooked up to some physiological instruments,

including ones that measure their heart rate, sometimes measure heart rate synchronicity, measure their respiration, measure how much they jiggle. We have what's called a jiggleometer on the chair, so it measures how much they're moving around. And all that videotape and physiological information is then analyzed and coded by people, especially trained to understand what the emotions are

that are being communicated by the face, by the words, by the movements. In addition, we will also have the couples themselves individually and privately review their own films and turn a little dial that indicates how they felt positive or negative along a spectrum at each particular moment. And all of that information is synchronized and analyzed hundredth of a second by hundredth of a second over the course of 15 minutes to see what couples are actually

communicating to one another. And as I understand it there are many conclusions you've reached based on all of this work but one of them is that there are these three principal conflict styles that you've observed, avoiding, validating, and volatile. Right. Right. Before we started doing the research, people thought that there was one way to be around conflict and that was to listen, to reflect back, to validate your partner's point of view, to engage in persuasion after you've established an agenda. And what we found was that there are couples who begin with persuasion and they're very passionate about it, they're very volatile. They start

immediately trying to persuade their partner that they're wrong and their point of view is right. There are couples who really are uncomfortable with conflict in general and avoid persuasion entirely. Just kind of talk about it and never get to a point where they engage in problem solving or compromise. And then there is that group of couple who do some validation as well. And it turns out all three styles are fine.

As long as this magic ratio, the ratio of positive to negative emotions in the conversation exceeds five to one during conflict, equals or exceeds five to one, five times as much positive as negative then it doesn't matter what style you have unless you're mismatched with your partner. And that's another issue that we discovered becomes

a serious mismatch. If you're somebody who wants to avoid conflict and you're married to somebody who really wants to start fighting right away and engaging in persuasion, that's a special kind of problem. I want to talk about what you do in the case of a mismatch in a moment, but I'm stuck on the magic ratio five to one. Whatever your conflict style, you can still fight right as it were. As long as the ratio of positive to negative emotions

in the conversation is five to one. And I'm just thinking about the practicality of that because if my wife has pissed me off, am I not logical from you to march into that conversation with a certain degree of negative emotion? from marching to that conversation with a certain degree of negative emotion? Of course it is, but let me explain what positive moments amount to.

For example, if you are listening to your wife and you're nodding your head, that's positive. If you say to her, hmm, good point, that's positive. If you compliment her, well, you know, I know that you're probably right about this and you allow yourself to empathize with her a little bit, that's positive. If you smile at her, that's positive.

So those little positive moments can be very, very subtle. They can even be neutral, just nodding your head. That's it, as you're listening. That's positive. So it's very easy to mount up those positive moments that counteract some of the negativity that of course you're gonna feel and express when you're angry or annoyed or disturbed about something. So you're lowering the bar on what counts as positive in a positive way

you're lowering the bar. Yes, exactly. That's right. But affection, shared humor, interest in your partner's point of view is very positive. And so some positives are much more powerful than others. And some negatives are much more negatively destructive than others. What are the destructive negatives I'm asking for a friend? We call them the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and after the book of revelations and in our case they are criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. Let me describe what those are because they're common words but not everybody understands what they mean.

So contempt is blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. Like you're so lazy, you're so selfish and thoughtless. That's criticism. Criticism, yeah. Contempt is coming at your partner negatively from a place on high, from a superior place.

It can be voiced as sarcasm, it can be mockery, it can be, you know, you didn't use the proper English when you just described your thought, things like that. So contempt is put down plus a bit of snide, disgust and scorn, that's contempt. Defensiveness, there's two kinds. I really specialize in the counter attack. Can always think of something to aim back.

That's counter attack. And there's also whining, which is so much fun. It's like, I did two pay bills. That's the whining defensiveness. And finally, there's stonewalling. And stonewalling means one partner completely shuts down, and not just for a few seconds, but for longer, much longer than that,

a few minutes, maybe even 10 minutes, where they give absolutely no indication that they are listening, that they recognize their partner, that they're even hearing their partner. They become like a stone wall. And what we discovered, Dan, from the physiology was that in many, many, many people who were stonewalling, they are moving into fight or flight, which means this part of the brain, right in the front, the prefrontal cortex, shuts down.

So they can't listen, they can't interpret accurately, they can't problem solve, they can't think creatively. Instead, all their hearing, no matter what their partner says, is attack, attack, attack, attack. And their whole body is reacting to that by going into fight or flight. And that's what's behind somebody going quiet. They're trying to go inside themselves to self-soothe because being in fight or flight while you're sitting

there is very uncomfortable. And 85% of the time the stone wall is a male. Right? Yes. I feel like I've done all of these, I've committed all of these sins and I thinking about the times where I've stone walled it's I could imagine it for some people it being a trauma response but often for me it's like cruelty. You know, I'm shutting you out because I'm trying to punish you in some way. It could be that. Mostly what we found was when we brought people

back into the lab and showed them these moments and asked them what they were thinking of, there was an internal monologue going on that went something like this, okay, shut up, just don't say anything. How long can she go on like this? She's gonna give herself a heart attack. 10 minutes to the game, she can't touch me then.

You know, it's that kind of, I'm gonna persevere through this. Got it, got it. But you're right, Dan. I mean, some folks and everybody is capable of this, by the way. It's, I don't know if I would call it cruelty, but it's definitely punishment.

You know, you wanna punish your partner by withdrawing yourself completely from interaction. And sure, a lot of us wanna do that. We wanna do it in revenge for what our partner just said or to try to get our way. There's all kinds of reasons behind that. Just a quick clarifying question. I do wanna get to this idea of mismatch,

which I promised I would do. But is this book, and is your work defined or aimed specifically at romantic partners, or can these skills be used in any type of fighting? Well, we've only researched romantic partners and friendships. So we know that these are important in both close friendships and romantic relationships. I've also though found in my clinical work that these methods work

really well for work relationships. They work for internal family relationships, for example, father, daughter, mother, daughter, sisters, and so on, even grandparents sometimes. Though we haven't studied whether or not they're effective, I've seen clinically that they are. I'm glad I asked that. So getting back to this, what you call the meta emotion mismatch, what do you mean by that and what can be done in those scenarios? So by meta emotion,

we mean how people feel about emotions and how they think about emotions. For a lot of people, anger is kind of a natural response, kind of like clearing your throat. But for other people, anger is kind of a natural response, kind of like clearing your throat. But for other people, anger is disrespect and insulting. So, you know, the way people feel about emotions, their history with expressing or not expressing emotions, turns out to be very critical.

And especially in understanding their relationships. If I think that anger is a bad thing or if I think, you know, it's just typical for example in Norway that pride is destructive. It's bad to express pride in your children, for example, in Norway. So people have these specific reactions about specific emotions. That often can determine the course of relationships, especially if there's a mismatch. If one person thinks it's really good to talk

about your emotions and the other person thinks it's a sign of weakness or mental illness or it's embarrassing, then they're gonna have a problem if they have totally different views about emotions. Let me also mention that a lot of times, people's earlier life, earlier childhood, feeds into how they think about emotions

and how they feel about emotions. For example, if somebody grew up in a home where the parents yelled and screamed at each other, maybe even through things that was very scary for this person as a child to experience, then they may avoid anger like the plague and try to just keep things very quiet, very amenable,

just agree, agree, agree, or agree to disagree, versus somebody who grew up in a very passionate, intense family that interrupted each other all the time. They, everybody talked over each other. Well, they may be very comfortable with anger because the intensity in their home growing up was not destructive. It was just part of the atmosphere.

So they're very comfortable expressing anger. And what people have to do with a mismatch like that is first of all, dive deep, and each person understand their feelings about a particular emotion and where those feelings come from. When they share with their partner the experience they had that created those feelings, oftentimes more compassion is created between the partners by doing that.

And then they can negotiate, okay, well, I'm scared of anger. Well, I have to express my anger, okay. How can I express my anger in a way that isn't gonna scare you? How can I do that? And they work out a formula for emotions that they have very different meta emotions about

that feels comfortable for both of them. I saw one couple in therapy where the major issue was that he never was affectionate in public. He grew up in Belfast and his family never touched each other, never expressed affection, never said, I love you. They found that whole area of life embarrassing. And so he was completely uncomfortable being affectionate toward his wife.

And she was kind of emotionally starved, growing up in American in a family where affection was natural and comfortable. So they had a really big problem with meta emotion. And it seems from what Julie was saying that the way out of this mismatch is communication. Sort of, here's my operating system, what's yours? Let's do a deal on how we can manage these fights going forward. Yeah, that's exactly right, Dan.

We like to make a distinction between process and content. And what content means is what issue are you discussing? And what are your thoughts and feelings about that particular issue? That's content. Process is what is the way that you communicate? And is that way that you communicate effective or is it flawed?

Do we need to fix it or not? And what we are describing here where you negotiate with your partner, how to deal with a particular feeling, that is process. Very important to talk about. Coming up, doctors Julie and John Gottman talk about perpetual versus solvable problems, why the first three minutes of an argument are key, and why they believe there's no such thing as constructive criticism. Hello, I'm Alice Levine and I am one of the hosts of British Scandal.

So I want you to imagine that you're being offered 500,000 pounds to introduce someone to your ex. I mean the answer is still no. So you shake hands and agree to do it. But it's all about to get a hell of a lot more complicated because the you in this story is Fergie, the Duchess of York, X, Y for Prince Andrew, and the person who's offered you half a million pounds is an undercover tabloid reporter who's recorded the whole conversation.

Oh, and just one more thing, promise, last one, it's all about to appear on the front page of the news of the world. In the later season of British Scandal, we take you inside the story of the so-called fake shake, the investigative journalist Mazem Amoud, and the series of explosive sting operations he used to con public figures, from Fergie to singer Tleesa and former England football coach Sven Goran-Eriksson. Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wondry Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app.

Honestly, a million pounds and I still wouldn't introduce you to him. And that's for your sake. Where can I get help hiring people with disabilities? There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians with disabilities who are ready to work. And many local organizations are available to help you find qualified candidates and make your workplace more accessible and inclusive. Visit canada.ca slash right here

to connect with one near you today. A message from the government of Canada. And don't miss out over on the 10% happier app. We've got an incredible course from Oran J. Sofer to help you listen to and be heard by your loved ones. It's called Relationships. Download the 10% happier app today wherever you get your apps to get started for free. All right, we've talked about one practical tip here and we're going to hit more as we

continue this conversation. But just to stay on a high level for another few beats. In the book you talk about two types of fights. Can you break those down for us please? Yes, one type is solvable problems and those are the kind of problems where there is an obvious solution, like who's going to pick up the kids on Friday. The other kind is what we call a perpetual problem. And perpetual problems never go away. And we found in our research, after studying couples for as long as 20 years, that 69% of all the problems that couples work with are typically perpetual problems.

They're based on personality differences or lifestyle preferences, maybe a set of different values, for example. Every couple has them. You cannot find a couple that doesn't. Those are the two types. I'm guessing here, but as I interpolate back to my, many years of being married,

it feels like sometimes the solvable problems may have their roots in the perpetual problems. Does that make sense? Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. Quite often, the very things that attracted a couple to one another eventually become these perpetual problems. So, you know, she loved his spontaneity, but now she's really angry that he can't make a plan

and stick to it. So there's that negative side of every quality and we aren't attracted to people who are just like us. But the problem arises when we try to really convert our partner into us. That's where all the destructive conflict really originates. Well, the other thing about solvable problems actually having deeper roots, which,

you know, you're putting your finger on a point that is very, very important. You know, it can be something like, would you please clean up the books from the entryway? I don't want people seeing that when they walk in. Well, that's an easy solution, right? However it goes back and golly gee, I'm referring to our own marriage as very different personality styles. So I tend to be pretty OCD, you know, obsessive compulsive. I need things to be tidy, neat, well-organized, or I go slightly crazy, though of course I'm slightly crazy all the time, but this is a little more crazy. John, in the meantime,

is, doesn't really care about the environment. He shuts it out, and I don't know, there's a missing piece where it comes to tidiness. So he's very comfortable with, you know, piles of books or papers or whatever all around. So if I'm asking him to do something like clean up the books,

well, he may not think that's important at all. And he may prioritize other things before that. On the other hand, for me, it's much more important. So if we dive deep, we come down to those lifestyle preference differences that are perpetual in our relationship. That all makes complete sense. I'm thinking about something that you said a few minutes ago, John, about how often what attracts people to another person,

those qualities that draw you in at first can become the source of perpetual problems. I'm thinking to my own marriage where I think I've heard my wife say that there were a couple of things that she liked about me at the beginning. One was that she thought it was funny and the other is that she liked that I was a little bit intolerant of some of the things that she didn't like about herself. Like I was not, I didn't indulge her emotions. I think I'm saying this correctly that she has a tendency to get a little mopey and I didn't contribute to that.

And over time, those have become, you know, my propensity, she still thinks I'm reasonably amusing, but it also can be very annoying when I turn everything into a joke. And the fact that I'm not as affectionate or solicitous as she would like, and frankly, I would say, not as affectionate or solicitous as I should be. And I know should is a problematic word,

but I tend to agree with her and her criticism of me on both of these scores. Those have turned into real problems, perpetual problems. And so that's a really, really interesting dynamic that I suspect plays out almost universally. Yeah, I think that's true. And it's an interesting thing that some couples kind of get to a place

where they can laugh about it. You know, they can accept these differences even though they're annoying at times and they can laugh about it. And then, you know, talk about how to turn it into a solvable problem like Julie does about the books. You know, when she finally goes, I can't take it anymore, I clean it up, you know.

And so that's the hidden code for she's going crazy with the mess I created. Oh, interesting. So you have like a safe word to get into BDSM territory. Ha ha, just about Dan. So you have like a safe word to get into BDSM territory. Just about, Dan. You know, it's typically the fourth time I'll remind him. So the first time, nothing happens.

The second time, okay, I'll get to it. The third time, oh, you're right, I really should. The fourth time, it's the crazy word. I'm going crazy with this. And then, boom, he cleans it up. And I've got another four weeks to deal with the next mess. The books keep coming from Amazon. How does that happen, honey?

How does that, it's just spontaneous. Yeah, it's like a storm. But I think you're putting your finger on something, I made the joke about a safe storm. But I think you're putting your finger on something, you know, I made the joke about a safe word, but I think you're putting your finger on something that strikes me as potentially useful for any relationship of any flavor, that if you have some sort of code,

I remember I had a very close colleague who occasionally would say to me, he would get a sense that I was getting anxious and he would say, he had a little phrase that he would use, let your amygdala speak. Like just, I know you're freaking out and you're trying to hide it, just like, tell me what's going on. And I also, I had a close colleague at work who, if he was, he was one of the senior producers on World News Tonight, and which was the evening news, is the evening news broadcast. And I would be calling in from the field and he'd be asking me to

Do something that I couldn't understand or was just really annoying and I would we had this code was Is this a dog leg left which meant is the anchor telling you to do something irrational that neither of us has a say in and I should just do it instead of fight you and and so we just came up with this random term and It strikes me that that me that this is a modus vivendi for people. Yeah, it's kind of like a private communication, a code that really works. One of the things we discovered that I think is very important to tell people

is that the first three minutes of a conflict discussion determine how it's going to go 96% of the time and also predict the future of the relationship. Those first three minutes are really critical. So okay now you're getting me where I wanted to go toward the practical. What can we do to ensure the first three minutes go as smoothly as possible? Oh gosh, that is actually a pretty easy one. Instead of bringing up a complaint or a problem with criticism or contempt, right, blaming the other person for the problem, you describe yourself by saying, I feel some emotion, whatever that is,

could be I feel stressed, I feel anxious, I feel angry, you can even say I feel enraged, about what? What is the situation? You describe the situation neutrally. Like, I'm angry that there's a new dent in the car. I'm upset that I've been cooking dinner every night for the last 17 years.

Can we, and then you say, what is it that you need? And it has to be stated as a positive need, which means what do you want to feel better from your partner as opposed to what you don't like or resent or don't want. So to say it wrong is gonna be something like, let's say your mother is coming over, your mother-in-law is coming over for dinner tonight

and she always finds something to criticize you for. So you could start with a harsh startup, we call it harsh startup, over for dinner tonight and she always finds something to criticize you for. So you could start with a harsh startup, we call it harsh startup, by saying honey, you know your mother is a wart on the back of humanity. Okay, so this is not really, really gonna work unless your partner totally agrees with you. Instead, you might say, I'm feeling anxious, there's the feeling, about, here's the situation,

your mother coming over tonight and the positive need, would you please stand by me if she starts to criticize me? There's the positive need. So a positive need is how can your partner shine for you? That's what you say instead. So to restate that, the first three minutes of an argument are key.

And if you wanna start the argument well, two things. First, use eye language, talk about your own emotions instead of characterizing the other person. Second, state a positive intention, something you would like to see instead of describing the universe or other people in negative terms. Right, and the second, so it's actually three, you describe your emotion, you describe the situation that's triggering the emotion in a neutral way, then your positive need. Yeah, then let me contrast this with the typical thing

that therapists recommend, which has been called active listening, which is been called active listening, which is when you do something, it makes me feel something and here's what I need. So when you start with when you do something, that's guaranteed to create defensiveness. So instead of that you statement, you're really saying in this situation,

here's what I feel and here's what I need. So it minimizes defensiveness. That's what we saw the successful couples do. Very different from what most therapists recommend. I am so interested in the skill of communication which is largely untaught ironically in a given that we're a species that thrives on communication it's what allowed us to become the apex predator in the first place and I'd spent my whole life not thinking about it at all until about five years ago when

I started taking learning from communications coaches how to communicate interpersonally and what I hear you describing, and what I've always thought about my own coaches, is that if you think about it in terms of brain science, you're trying to ensure that you structure and state your argument in such a way that you keep the prefrontal cortex online, the thinking rational part of the brain,

and you keep the amygdala, the stress and fight or flight area of the brain offline. Does that all go down with you, Izzy? Not quite. So that neuroscience isn't quite right. You don't need to be rational. I mean, it helps to be rational. And everybody in this country, of course, always favors being rational. I mean, it helps to be rational. And everybody in this country, of course,

always favors being rational. Women typically are described as too emotional. Men are the good ones, they're rational. So it's okay to express your emotion and be real about feeling that emotion. But in the process, you're describing yourself, you're not describing the partner, that's the interesting and important part of it.

Well, I probably miscommunicated because what I mean is not that you as a participant in the fight should not be emotional, but that you should or could learn to express your emotions in a way that keeps your interlocutors prefrontal cortex online. Oh absolutely. There you go. That's exactly right. You know, I like to tell people that the way you bring up a problem is so important and you don't want to sabotage you getting listened to. Yes, yes. Right?

So that's the effect of keeping that prefrontal cortex of your listener online. That's right. Just to go back to my own marriage, and I think I will retain this policy throughout this conversation. Anytime I bring up a fight that I've had with my wife, she was right. And I'm not doing that to Panda because I genuinely, as I bring up a fight that I've had with my wife, she was right.

And I'm not doing that to Pander because I genuinely, as I think back on our fights, she's been right almost every time. And so I can remember a lot of our early fights where she brought it up in a way that whether it was her bringing, I don't even wanna put the blame on her, but I ended up fighting a lot with her about the way we fought or the way she brought it up or criticizing the way she brought it up instead of actually addressing

what she was trying to get me to address. And in some ways it was a type of stonewalling or a type of like evasion because I was focusing on her tactics instead of what she was trying to communicate. Yeah, that's the defensiveness stuff. That's another way to be defensive. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, so you're talking about the, we're talking about defensiveness now. It's been a huge problem for me in all of my relationships. Somebody says, hey, you know, you could have done extra Y better and I hear you're a monster.

And then I go to, you know, 11. I have the same problem. I'll do two. Okay. So I feel better. What do we do about that? Oh gosh, that's so hard. Yeah, you know, I have a hero from my lab,

he's a lawyer and he was so good at not being defensive. I kind of tried to be like him. His wife was trying to tell him what about his personality she disliked the most and he was helping her. And he was saying, well, is it the way I talk? And she said, yeah, it's the way you talk.

Well, what is it about the way I talk? And she said, yeah, it's the way you talk. Well, what is it about the way I talk? You know, am I what? Acting like an authority? She said, no, you're acting like a king. Like the king has spoken. And he says, hmm, yeah, I think I do that. Well, it works pretty well in the courtroom. She says, doesn't work at home.

And he says, yeah, I can see that. And this guy's my hero. And I always try to deal with my own defensiveness by carrying a notebook in my back pocket. And if Julie is gonna talk to me, I take it out and I start taking notes. And that helps me calm down and be less defensive. That's my technique anyway.

But defensiveness is really down-regulating defensiveness. It's really the work you have to do in a relationship. Let me also mention though that the speaker has some responsibility to, you know, the person that is bringing up the complaint or bringing up the problem. One of the things that I really like to do in order to prevent defensiveness,

and I tell my clients to try this as well, is to say, I wanna talk about something and this is not a criticism of you. I'm not trying to criticize you here. I'm just bringing up my feelings about a situation and what would make me feel better about it. I love hearing that. But what if it is a criticism or a note or feedback that you want to give somebody? There is no such thing as constructive criticism. No such thing.

It's gonna immediately engender defensiveness. So whether the person expresses the defensiveness or not, they're gonna be feeling it somewhere because it feels like an attack. So if that formula is used where somebody is really describing themselves rather than the partner and what they need to be different, that's good enough. That's fine. That's giving a pathway for your listener towards making

the relationship better. So you've got to translate. Let me give you some feedback about what's wrong with you. You've got to translate that into, you know, I get really frustrated at times and in these situations, and here's what I would really need from you. You've got to actually do that translation. Right.

Instead of Julie coming to you and saying, I've made you new business cards, your new name is Dr. Messy. She would say, you know, I experience a lot of anxiety when things are not, when things are cluttered around the house, what I would love for you is to give me a hand in creating a semblance of order around here.

That would really help me. Yes, that would be perfect. Do you want to move in, Dan? I like that. I like to say it this way, Dan. I like to say, honey, I'm really afraid that I may fall and break my neck, tripping over the books next to the bed

when I try to make the bed. So in order to prevent me from breaking my neck, would you mind cleaning up the books next to the bed? There you go. Yeah. It's fun. What are some of the other key tactics you recommend to folks to fight right? One of the things that we discovered is that a lot of times people are fighting and they don't really know what they're fighting about. You know, they get into this sort of standoff with one another.

Give an example, and we talk about this in the book, a couple whose marriage ended because they kept fighting always about the dog. And, you know, she got him a dog and he didn't want a dog. And she got him a dog anyway. And now they fight about who's gonna take care of the dog and take the dog out and clean the dog's messes up. And what they really needed to do

was get underneath their positions about the dog and find out why he was so upset about the dog and why she really wanted the dog so much. And it turned out that for her, the real underlying agenda was she wanted to start a family with him. She wanted to start having children with him. And for him, the underlying issue was

he wanted his freedom. He wanted to be able to travel the world with her and not be encumbered by dogs or children. But they never talked about the real issue. That seems really key. Are there ways to make sure that when you're in a fight, you can get to what's beneath? Yes, we actually created a method

called the dream within conflict. And what it looks like is this, one person is the listener, the other is the speaker. So, you know, you first introduce what's the issue and then put a pause on it. You slow everything down. Let me understand your position much better, honey. I wanna ask you some questions.

And the dream within conflict includes six questions to ask. First, you ask, are there any values, ethics, or guidelines that are part of your position on this issue? Secondly, is there some childhood history or background that relates to your position on this issue? Why is this so important to you? What are your feelings here about this issue? Is there an ideal dream that's at the core

of your position on this issue. And finally, is there an underlying purpose or meaning in your position? So each person takes a turn answering those particular questions and what happens is those questions naturally lead to a much deeper understanding. So before resolution or even discussion of a solution go deep. And that is a beautiful way to go deep. We've seen in our workshops where there may be a thousand people, 1200 people with no therapist for everybody.

They work on that particular exercise, 87% of them make major breakthroughs on gridlocked issues. So I'm imagining I'm in the middle of a fight. My amygdala is on fire. I'm angry or hurt or afraid or whatever. And I don't have the wherewithal to pose six questions to whoever it is I'm fighting with. How do I remember in the midst of whatever storm of emotions I'm experiencing to try to get at the dream within. You don't have to remember.

They're written down in the book. You can take them right out of the book if you want. They are online as well in what's called Gottman Connect. That's a website of ours. They're all there. So we have lots of places where you can find those questions. What I have a lot of couples do is they print them out and every time they discuss a problem, that list of questions is right there.

Yes. Because you're right, it's impossible to remember all the questions when you're in a heated discussion. Even if, you know, I can imagine people listening to this thinking, yeah, I'm probably not gonna remember to go print out the questions. Even if you're in that situation, it seems to me that there is a nugget of wisdom

that is extractable here, which is when you're in conflict, if you can remember it to try to figure out what dreams, what desires, needs, goals lie beneath the surface and try your best to probe that. Probe that and one other I might recommend, childhood history or background. That is so important, so important. All of us didn't escape childhood without baggage.

Everybody's got- Or a prior relationship. Everybody's got baggage. And that baggage, of course, doesn't disappear. You can have 20 years of therapy. It's still gonna be at the core of you in scar tissue, for example, that's how I like to think of it. And when that scar tissue is pressed, it tears easily

and there can be all kinds of hurt and difficulty in talking about an issue. So bringing up, is there some background or childhood history related to your position is so important. That's the piece that really creates the compassion between the partners. Coming up, doctors Julie and John Gottman talk about the benefit of taking a break when we're feeling flooded in a fight. Why apologizing quickly is not always the right move, and when a fight might spell the end of love. I'm Afwa Hirsh.

I'm Peter Francopern. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we delve into the life of Michael Gorbachev. This season has everything. It's got political ideology. It's got nuclear Armageddon. It's got love story.

It's got betrayal. It's got economic collapse. One ingredient you left out, legacy. Was he someone who helped make the world a better place, saved us all from all of those terrible things, or was he a man who created the problems and the challenges of many parts of the world today? Those questions about how to think about Gorbachev,

you know, was he unwitting character and history, or was he one who helped forge and frame the world? And it's not necessarily just a question of our making, there is a real life binary in how his legacy is perceived. In the West he's considered a hero and in Russia it's a bit of a different picture. So join us on legacy for Mikhail Gorbachev. Hi, I'm Anna and I'm Emily. We're the hosts of Wanderer's podcast Terribly Famous, a show where we bring you outrageous true stories about our most famous celebrities.

And our latest season is all about the one and only Katie Price. You might think you know her, you might have an opinion, but there is way more to the former glamour model than just her cup size. Yes, this is a woman who's gone from pin-up to publishing sensation. We all have teenage dreams,

and for Katie, it was simple, massive fame and everlasting love. I just wanted to kiss a boy. Just one boy. Well, she does kiss a few boys, but there are plenty of bumps along the way. And when I say bumps, I mean terrible boyfriend choices,

secret dates with spiky-haired pop stars, and a tabloid press that wants to tear her apart at every opportunity. And she surprises even herself when suddenly she becomes a role model for a whole new generation of young women who want to be just like her. Want to hear more? Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery App. podcast or listen early and add free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. One of the things you talk about in the book is the need to take breaks when we're feeling flooded. Can you say a little bit more about that? Sure. So it's hard for people to know when they're flooded, to know when they're flooded. So it really helps to observe yourself first.

And as you start going up, especially in your heart rate, if you're over 100 beats a minute, or maybe 80, 85 beats a minute, if you're athletic, super athletic, that's gonna mean you're typically flooded. People will feel it as heat rising or having difficulty breathing, their chest is tightening and so on. And when that happens, one has to take a break.

And taking a break means going away from one another for a period of time. And I'll talk about the details of this. So taking a break is really protecting the relationship from further escalation. First, one of you says, I'd really like to take a break here. And that person has to say when they'll come back to continue the conversation. If they don't do that then the other person is just going to feel

rejected or abandoned. So say when you're going to come back then go to separate places so you can't hear and see one another and don't think about the fight. If you keep thinking okay okay, what am I gonna say when I go back? Then of course you stay flooded because you're still in the fight as you're contemplating what to say. So instead you do something self soothing

that brings your heart rate down. And that might be reading a book, reading a magazine, listening to music, playing with a puppy, or taking a walk, going for a run, yoga, meditation, lots of things that can be self soothing. And then couples come back at the designated time to continue the conversation.

If they're not calm enough yet, ask for more time and say a second time when you're coming back. The minimum amount of time a break should last is 20 to 30 minutes. Takes that long for the stress hormones that occur with flooding to start metabolizing out of the body. But shouldn't last any longer than 24 hours. After that, it really feels like punishment. That's

taking a break. And it's one of the healthiest things you can do in your relationship to keep the conflicts gentle and calm. And a good way to know that you're flooded is If you're repeating yourself And if you believe that repeating yourself louder makes you more persuasive Then you know you're flooded I'm laughing because that is a belief I have harbored at certain inopportune moments I have harbored at certain inopportune moments. As have I.

A few more really useful strategic insights to impart here before I let you go. John, you were interested in talking about the process for processing a regrettable or difficult event or incident in a relationship? Yeah, for a lot of couples, they've had a fight or disagreement or some kind of horrible thing that happened. Remember this one couple where the woman was worried about her health and she went to the hospital to have a biopsy and her husband went to the golf course

to play golf with a very important client. And she felt really abandoned. She felt like he wasn't there for her, but they never talked about it. And yet it created an invisible wedge between them that really kept her from really trusting him. And he thought it was a minor event. And, you know, but when they talked about it,

when they processed it, and we provide in the book a way, a systematic way to talk about these regrettable incidents and really put them in the past. If they don't have that, then there's always gonna be this break of trust where the partner wasn't there for you in an important moment.

And that's the power of a regrettable incident that isn't fully talked about. Can you say a little bit more about what that process entails? Yes, first of all, one mistake that people often make is they apologize too quickly. If they do that, apologize right away, they really don't know what they're apologizing for because they haven't heard the impact

of what happened on their partner. So the first thing people do is take turns reading off a list of feelings, what feelings they had during the fight. Secondly, each person gives their own point of view about what happened while the other person takes notes, summarizes when the other's done, and gives a few words of validation.

So that subjective reality, we call it, may be very different than the other persons, but that's because there's always two points of view in every fight. We've heard that before, but it's really true. It's all about each person's perception of what happened, and they can be night and day different, both are valid. Third, people talk about what got triggered.

And triggered means those old background feelings again that perhaps got started long before this relationship ever began. Maybe during childhood or another relationship. They talk about, okay, here is where I really got triggered. When you said X, Y, and Z, I got triggered and it took me back to my alcoholic father, etc. So there's a lot of understanding that comes when people talk about what we call enduring vulnerabilities or triggers. Finally, fourth, people talk about their own responsibility

for what happened. First, they list their state of mind when the incident happened, and then they apologize specifically for what they contributed to the fight. See how late that's coming? After all the impact is explored.

And finally, the fifth step is how can I do something, one thing differently, and how can you do something differently that will avoid this from happening in the future? then you're done. That all sounds extremely helpful. I'm keying in on one, it may seem superficial, but I don't think it is. John mentioned this earlier and you just mentioned it again,

Julie, John said earlier he cares around a notebook in his back pocket and Julie you talked about taking notes while listening to something. That seems key in two ways. One, back to keeping your own prefrontal cortex online. It's like keeping you like in this kind of logical sphere. You know, it's keeping you somewhat rational in a difficult situation. And again, not saying that you have to be rational all the time. It's keeping you somewhat rational in a difficult situation. And again, not saying that you have to be rational

all the time. It's helpful. The second is it really shows that you are listening. You are learning and listening, and that is so pleasing to whoever is doing the talking. There are a million takeaways from this conversation, but that one is really sticking in my head. Yep, you're absolutely right. It keeps people in their head. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yep, you're absolutely right. You know, it keeps people in their head

rather than their heart metaphorically. It keeps people from profoundly, emotionally reacting to what they hear their partner saying keeps you kind of in a cognitive space, an intellectual space. And taking those notes as a result keeps you from getting flooded. Because the biggest problem people have

when they try to process a problem is it turns into a fight over who remembers it better. As if there is one reality. There's a God camera in the sky and I've got that God camera right in my back pocket. So usually not. Yeah, it helps me to write things down. And as I'm writing, after a while,

I kind of go, wow, that's a good point. She's actually making a good point here. And I slow her down so I can get it all down and it calms me down as I'm writing. Is there more to be said, we've just talked about how to process in the aftermath of a difficult event. Is there more to be said about repair post-fight? event, is there more to be said about repair post fight? Well, here's the difference. Repair post fight is what we just described, but there is also repair during a fight. So repair during a fight is something a little different. If you feel the conversation going off track, how can you get it back on track from the low road to the high road? And again, we have a whole list, lots of suggestions

for what people can say. For example, my favorite is instead of going defensive when you feel criticized, just say, I'm feeling defensive. Can you say that another way? That's a repair, gets it back on track. Secondly, if you've blurted out the wrong thing and you wanna take it back, well, there's a repair. You can say, oh gosh, I didn't say that right. Can I try again?

Those are all repairs as long as your partner accepts them as repairs that keep the conversation from going even further south, gets them back on that good road again. So we actually studied the repair process. It took us about seven years to really see what repairs are effective. And it turns out that anything you would say in a business meeting is bound to fail. So you know saying let's consider our options. So let's take a look at what solutions really make the most sense. And, you know, let's try to be efficient in talking about this. No thanks.

They all fail. And the only thing that works is really to focus on the emotions, what you're feeling and what you need. It's really about emotions. Repair works only when you're talking about yourself and what you need and your feelings. All the other intellectual repairs are bound to fail.

Good point. Last question for me. How do you know when, you have a section in the book, when this fight means the end? Can you just say a little bit about that? That's probably a dour note on which to end, but it's worth hitting. Yeah, you know, two things about this. It's usually not the fight itself. It's

the, you know, many many many fights that have really spelled the end of love. There's been so many emotional injuries. Typically relationships don't end with a fight, they end with ashes, everything is gone. However, there are certain topics that couples fight about that could spell the end. Where there is no solution for both of them, no compromise, like, are you going to have kids or not?

Are you going to live in Uganda or Switzerland? I had a couple who had to decide that and they couldn't, you know, they couldn't leave their respective homes so they had to break up. And finally, when there is abuse, either physical abuse that is really perpetrator victim and is causing major injuries, then that's a big signal to get out of there and get safe. Sometimes that can also be verbal abuse, name calling, lots and lots of contempt,

and the individual doing that refuses to take any responsibility for it. And probably the last situation is where there's a serious addiction for one partner and they refuse to get help over and over and over again. They refuse to get help for years. Okay, then it may be time to leave. This has been enormously helpful and fun and interesting. Are there points that you would have liked to have made that I haven't given you an opportunity to make?

You're a terrific interviewer. I want to say that first. And you're still funny. I want to say that. I'm not. I'm not. Try living with me. You might feel differently.

But are you messy? That's what I have to ask. I am not messy. Oh, good. I am messy. Maybe not as bad as John, but I did make a dumb joke to my nine-year-old son the other night and he said,

Daddy, sometimes you're hard to love. Oh! Oh no! Go back and apologize. Cut you to the quick. Yeah, he knows how to do that. Stab in the heart. Can you please remind everybody of the name of your book and anything else that any of the resources that we should be aware of?

The book is called Fight Right. And one resource that I think we're very proud of is if you go to the App Store and type in Gottman card decks. You can download a free app that gives you all kinds of wonderful things you can ask your partner, including things about their erotic world that improves couple of sex life and a list of needs for doing an expressing needs exercise, just a wonderful app that's been downloaded and a list of needs for doing an expressing needs exercise,

just a wonderful app that's been downloaded so far about 350,000 times. Yep, and the other one I would recommend is going to Gottman Connect, which is every intervention pretty much that we've ever created that is on a software platform with John and I explaining it in simple terms and then demonstrating how not to do it and how to do it and how not to do it. We've had so much practice that those are excellent videos. And then it gives you the exact, you know,

instruction for how to do something in a much better way the way the successful couples have done in our research. Thank you very much for your time today and for all of your work. It's really helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Dan. This has been wonderful. Thank you for the opportunity. I agree. Thanks again to John and Julie Gottman.

Just want to say that in honor of their new book, we're going to air a deep cut episode, my first interview with the Gottmans. We're going to pull that out of the archives and put it on the feed this Wednesday. For more episodes on sex and relationships, last Monday I spoke to Dan Savage, we'll put a link to that in the show notes,

and we'll also link to some episodes with the mindful sex therapist, Lori Brotto, and Devin and Craig Haza, and also Maisha Battle. We've done a lot of stuff on relationships and sex on the show, so we'll put a bunch of links in the show notes. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justine, Davey, Lauren, Smith, and Tara Anderson,

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