Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - From The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos | Being Here Now with Tony Hale

Episode Date: January 24, 2023

We're sharing a preview of another podcast we love, The Happiness Lab. On The Happiness Lab, Dr. Laurie Santos explores all the ways we get our happiness wrong and what we can to do really feel better. She walks through the latest evidence-based strategies for improving your mental health, sharing practical advice on what will really bring more joy. In her latest New Year season of The Happiness Lab, Laurie tackles how to listen to the inner voice of what we really need in the new year. We're often looking into the future... hunting for the "next big thing." We can get so fixated with these events and the happiness we hope they'll deliver, that we forget to look for joy right now. Actor and author Tony Hale (Veep, The Mysterious Benedict Society, Arrested Development) joins Laurie to discuss how he was always chasing new accomplishments, until he realized he was missing the chance to be happy living in the moment. You can hear more from The Happiness Lab at https://podcasts.pushkin.fm/thls6?sid=tph/.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, everybody. Today we're bringing you something a little different. It's a preview from one of my personal favorite podcasts. The Happiness Lab hosted by Yale professor and human cognition expert, Dr. Laurie Santos. She's been on this show before. I have to say there are a lot of people in the wellness slash happiness world who I don't exactly trust, but Laurie is on the far end of the trustworthiness and intelligence spectrum. She really is quite incredible and I highly recommend both her and her show. On past episodes of this show, she's come on to talk about how to hit the reset button at work, why we need to double down on self-care and why self-compassion is the best fuel for habit change.

We'll put some links in the show notes to her previous appearances on this show. Over on her show, the Happiness Lab, Laurie explores all the ways we get happiness wrong and what we can do to really feel better. She walks listeners through the latest evidence-based strategies for improving your mental health, sharing practical advice on what will really make you happier. In her latest New Year season of the Happiness Lab, Laurie Tackles, how to listen to the inner voice of what we really need in the New Year. And in the episode you're about to hear, she chats with somebody who I really love and admire, although I haven't met him yet, just a huge fan. Tony Hale from such amazing shows as Arrested Development and Vipe, she talks to Tony about how we can stay grounded and present and sane in the face

of all of the many New Year's goals we may be setting for ourselves. As we start the new year, we tend to get focused on changing things. We're on to the next diet or the next workout or the next step in career development. We can get super caught up in thinking about how great things will be in the future that it may be impossible to hear the soft voice of intuition telling us that what we need actually is right here right now. Tony is no stranger to problems that come with spending too much time thinking ahead. He shares how this type of thinking plagued him earlier in his acting career. And the concrete steps he's taken to find ways to stay present and listen to the

inner voice telling him what he actually needs right now. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. If you do, you can find more of the happiness lab wherever you listen to your podcast. And like I say, huge admirer of Laurie Santos. So I give her and her show an unreserved endorsement. Pushkin. When we enter a new year, many of us start to feel inspired about making big changes in our lives. That new day on the calendar can motivate us to improve our careers, our health, our habits, and our happiness.

But when we start to think about how to go about making all these improvements, that's when things start to get really, really loud. We start to hear all these outside cultural voices shouting at us about what we should be doing, that number that we're really supposed to have on the scale, or the glossy gym we absolutely need to join, or the new productivity or dating app that all our friends are trying. These outside voices tell us there's one way to get fit or quit biting our nails or get that big promotion at work. It's a new year they scream, and this is how things are going to have to change.

These new year voices are all very well-intentioned, but they can sometimes get so loud that we can't even hear ourselves think. So in this new year season of the Happiness Lab, I want us to try something different. Instead of listening to all these loud outside voices, we're going to do the harder work of looking inward. Over the next few episodes, we'll try to pay attention to the wise voice inside us, our inner compass, if you will, that often gets drowned out by all the outside noise, and we'll see that carefully listening to the quiet voice of what our bodies and our minds truly need

may be the real path to happiness in 2023. Our minds are constantly telling us what to be happy, but what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, leading us away from what will really make us happy? The good news is that understanding the science of the mind can point us all back in the right direction. You're listening to The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Sanders. In the coming episodes, we're going to take a closer look at the perennial urges we have in the new year, to work out more, to eat healthier, to throw ourselves into our jobs, and to push ourselves to the limit. At first glance, all of these seem like reasonable personal goals, but we rarely take a moment

to stop and think, could there be something else underlying all these desires? Why are we putting so much emphasis on how much we can bench press, how much protein we eat, or what our new job title is? And the place where I want to start this deeper exploration may seem slightly on orthodox. I want to start with a children's book. Archibald's morning always started off the way it would end, in an egg. My husband Mark and I have a ritual where he reads me bedtime stories at night. Sometimes we pick classic texts, but lots of nights these days we just go for a children's

book. And that was how I stumbled upon the book that inspired this entire episode. It's called Archibald's Next Big Thing. Archibald woke up deeply frustrated that he hadn't figured out his next big thing. The book tells a story of Archibald, a cartoon chicken who's desperately trying to find what he refers to as his next big thing. I've got to find my next big thing. Often missing out on exciting moments that were right there, if he just took a moment to notice. A dinosaur riding a roller coaster is pretty big, so what you're searching for must be

huge. It is, Seryl Trabald. I know it. The book ends with Archibald realizing that big things are sometimes right in front of our noses, or our beaks as it were. Of course, of course, Archibald clocked loudly. How could I have missed it?

Archibald's next big thing is a book for children, but many adults struggle with the same problem that this little chicken faced. Many of us spend a lot of energy looking forward to that next big thing when our new gym membership finally pays off, or how happy we'll be when we get that huge raise or promotion. We hear all these outside voices telling us how great it'll all be in the future, which makes it kind of impossible to hear the soft intuition that maybe telling us that what we need to be happy is right here in the present. The author of Archibald's next big thing knows this lesson all too well. He wrote the book for his daughter to help her learn what he'd gotten wrong so often

before. That if you only concentrate on the next big thing, you'll miss the chance to be happy right now. Hello. Hey Tony. I'm just realizing now, I think I took your course. Oh my gosh. It's a course, right?

Yes, it is called the Science of Wellbeing on Coursera. Now this makes so much sense why I used to talk so eloquently about happiness. That's what you taught me. That author whose voice you may recognize is Tony Hale, the star of Vipe, the mysterious Benedict Society, and the actor who played Buster Bluth, an arrested development. Like many of his characters, Tony admits to having been deeply affected by anxiety. And just like Archibald the chicken, Tony spent many years searching for his next big thing,

including the next big role he thought would bring him the happiness he craved. I've mentioned the story a lot and I really believe in it a lot. I don't know if I'm a guy that needs a lot of reminders. Why don't mind talking about it a lot. But when I was living in New York, I was an actor in New York for like seven years and I was doing commercials and I was actually doing pretty well in commercials. But there was something called pilot season

where there was like a three month period during the year where they would audition for TV pilots. And if you missed that window, you'd probably work at a get on a show. And really all I wanted in life was to get on a sitcom. That was kind of my goal, my end goal. Every year would go by and I would miss pilot season. I'd be like, what is happening? But I was

always, anytime I would go through something, I was like, you know what, that day's coming, that day's coming, I'm going to get that sitcom, it's coming, it's coming. Finally, I booked a rest of development, which was like the best cast, best scripts, incredible show. And when I booked it, I found myself that I wasn't as satisfied as I thought I was going to be. And it really scared me because you can't get better at the rest of the development. So I had no excuse. And I was like, wait a second, this is what I've dreamed about. And it did satisfy me. And when it was canceled in 2006, so it was kind of a time during that season of like,

what's going on? What's happening? So when it got canceled, my daughter was born. And one thing that you have to do with a child is you can't be distracted. You can't, and because my thing was when I realized through this aggressive development experience, I just wasn't present for most of my life. And it wasn't just in New York, it was like whenever something was going on in my life, I would just check out. I would just really just kind of disassociate a strong word, but I would just check out, I was

looking for the future, I would just think I would just kind of not be there. When my daughter was born, I realized like, I can't check out. I've got to keep the child alive. So I've got to be present. And it really woke me up to just the many times my life, for most of my life, I wasn't present. And so then began this journey of just waking myself up to where I was. In my career, there's a lot of highs, like there's big highs. And I was kind of putting my satisfaction for most of my life in those big highs. And I wasn't giving a lot of power to the ordinary, a lot of power to the present, a lot of power to the everyday.

And just didn't know how to find really joy and contentment in those moments. So I did something called CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy. And really just kind of allowed myself, like he would always say, hey, why don't you just activate the five senses where you're at? What are you hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and just like really grounding myself? Like he would say, you have to wake yourself up 100 times a day to where you are. And that's where this children's book came out that I did, Cut Archibald's next big thing about this little chicken who gets his card in the mail that says your big thing is here. And he's where this children's book came out that I did called Archibald's Next Big Thing about this little chicken who gets this card in the mail that says your big thing is here.

And he's like, where? And he goes on all these adventures. But every time he's on an adventure, he's like, I got to get to my next big thing. And this B comes along and it's like, you gotta just B, man. You gotta just B. And he realizes the card is right. That his big thing was right there. It wasn't somewhere else. And I had given that sitcom a lot of weight.

And nothing can match the weight that I gave it. Now keep in mind, I had given that sitcom a lot of weight. And nothing can match the weight that I gave it. Now, keep in mind, I sound like I'm a professional at this. I'm not. This is something I struggle with. This is something. It's very easy for me to check out. I think I talk about it a lot as a reminder, but it's just my default is to check out. And I have to daily find the power in the every day in the ordinary, which is a challenge for me. I mean, I think it's a challenge for everyone. I mean, I think you're in it in industry where like looking ahead is really, you know,

I'm sure every single interview you do. So I'm, he's like, you know, what's the next big thing for Tony, right? But it's also just a feature of human nature. I mean, you can talk about this idea of waiting for the next thing. Like this is a bias that psychologists call the arrival fallacy. It's kind of like the happily ever after fallacy. I'll get this next thing and I'll be good,

but you're always looking to whatever the next thing is. Totally. And I never want to give the impression that dreaming is wrong, or I never want to give the impression that ambition is wrong. Or having those moments of a creative, like, oh, where's this going to go?

I think that's great. My thing is that's all I was doing. I always tell people that the value you have before success is the same value you're going to have after success. And I'm in a business that tells you your value will be with what you get. And I say that because it's okay to ambition, but am I changing my value with what I think I'm going to get? Or am I giving myself the same value that I have now?

And that's the trick. But the cool thing about the rest of development stories that you had the realization, you kinda did realize you were chasing and chasing and you were in the present moment. So what caused you to have that realization? Was there a moment when you're like, wait, there's never going to be a moment?

Was that like, honestly, I think it was the gift of getting my dream. I got it and I mean, you've heard stories of people getting Oscars and then the next day they go into a depression. Mine was more and my anxiety has amped up because all these expectations were not matched and I just freaked out. Also another component of that is the guilt when people come out to me and say, oh my gosh, are you so excited? Are you so excited?

And my insides did not match their expectation. And so then I walked away like, what is wrong with me? What is wrong with me? And that's when everything began to unfold and dissect. And I was like, wait, I got to go back. And I got to realize, I'm just being president is a big struggle for me. And the fact is, all these are very buzzwords right now being present, all that kind of stuff. But for me, that is, it is, it is the, it's a huge component for me. It's not just being present because I say that because there's a part of me that fights like Tony or something cliche, but it's true. I just was not very present for most of my life.

And we need to know what being present means. I think we think when we do the buzz wordy version, it's just be present. But it's like, no, that means sitting with the awful voice that's running at you. That means noticing that your, you know, your heart is freaking out and your chest wants to bust out and you feel awful and you're saying really mean stuff to yourself. So it's one thing to just be present when it's unicorns and rainbows and ice cream cones, but But it would be present. It feels awful. I love that you said that because I never thought about that way that being present, there's a, there's a compassion element to it of, I want to check out of this space right now. Hey, why am I feeling this? I'm sad or I've had a tough day where I'm pissed off at my daughter. Why am I wanting to check out? So let me just, hey, I hear you, and that's hard.

And that's something, honestly, when people have said, I'm sure you've heard this before, but if my daughter comes up to me and says, Dad, I'm really sad, I'm having a hard time, I would be like, oh my gosh, honey, this is really hard. Give yourself a break. We don't talk to ourselves that way. I don't talk to myself that way. So it's like, beginning to talk to myself as I would my daughter. And I think we, you know, one of our many misconceptions, as I think we have this like drill instructor theory about motivation where it's like, if I just scream at myself and just

like call myself really terrible names, obviously that'll stop making me feel sad or scared. It's like like, yeah, yeah. Because let me tell you right now that shame closet is packed. Like it is full, there is no more room. The grace compassion has got a lot of space. Let's start filling that closet. But it's hard. I mean, this is what you're articulating so nicely. Right. It's like, and it's hard in part because I think we want to push ourselves. Yeah.

Right. I mean, especially in the industry you're in, there's this like push, push, push, don't admit vulnerability. Yeah. And, and I mean, you had to fight against that kind of mantra a lot. Yeah, and I mean, and that's what's the gift of life of when I remember years ago, I did a pepto Bismill commercial in New York where I was having diary on the train, and I remember thinking, I'm going to go back to that reunion. And I'm going to be like, guys, I'm just this feeling of like, I'm on national television, that diary, a commercial. And I gave that so much power because I wanted to go back to these people that bullied me or I didn't feel a part of or I wanted to feel superior to or I just wanted, just mainly just to feel like the popular kid. I remember leaving that reunion feeling worse than when I came in. And it was like, God, I gave a lot of power

to wanting to redo trauma or whatever with these quote accomplishments, you know, and it was a diarrhea commercial on a train. One of the first things you talked about when you're talking about arrested development and wanting to do more, just articulate that urge for more. You finally get a sitcom. It's like one of the coolest characters and one of the most well-regarded characters

in the last two decades of TV history. How did that not feel like enough? That's the, I think the curse we can fall into is, and I do, sometimes I can get a little dark because bringing up the fact that it is never enough. If you don't wake up to what you're around, the sad truth, it is sugar. You have sugar and you're going to want more sugar and it's never going to satisfy. And then you're going to get to when you're in your 80s and you're going to still be going, I want more, what's next? This isn't enough. Thinking the whole time, the next

thing is going to be what's an option. Isn't that amazing? The very simple truth that I would think I would get, but it takes that reminder of like, I have been doing this and I still believe the next thing can be enough. It's very easy to go to that place. Yeah, and that's with career. I mean, you know, on the podcast, one of my favorite episodes of my own podcast was talking to the sky at Clay Cockrell who's a wealth psychologist. And so he works with the like, you know,

super infinitely wealthy. And they'll say things to him like, you know, I thought it was the first billion, but it wasn't. It turns out it's the second billion. I think it'd be a multi billion. Yeah. And he's like watching this being like, how can that you just had the data that that wasn't enough?

But we don't encode like, oh, the whole premise is wrong. We get encode like, I just didn't get there yet. You know, I need to be hit sitcoms. And that's when the happens. Yeah. And the truth is I say it, but it's so easy to fall into that pattern.

And also just all the, and again, not that money is bad or success is bad and all that kind of stuff. But I remember, you know, honestly, I was watching an interview with Amy Schumer and it was a long time ago. And someone was asking me about what advice would you get that's so exciting you've got to be where I want to be. And I remember Amy saying something to this person like, you have to understand, I've gotten to the other side. And I've seen behind the curtain, you're still thinking that thing is behind the curtain. And it's not.

Or something to that effect and it was so wise, oh, and this was my favorite. Jim Carrey speech, you know what I'm talking about? Jim Carrey at the Golden Globes. I had the chance to meet him recently. And I rushed him and I told him, I was like, I have told the story so many times and I so appreciate you doing this.

But he was at the Golden Globes years ago. And he said something to the effect of, as a joke, he said, I've got two Golden Globes, but a third will be enough. And it went to the audience and you can see half of them were laughing. And then you saw half of them, like kind of like, it will be like, because we do tell ourselves that narrative. He was making a joke, but what are profound statements, you know, I loved it a joke, but what a profound statement, you know, I loved it. Yeah, this idea of never having enough is really, I think, such a problem. I mean, again, I was not consulted when human minds were built, but like, you know, three golden gloves, like, you should cross it off your list.

I think that's exactly how I go hang out on the couch. Exactly. And I think another trick is kind of navigating all the other psychological biases we bring to the table. And I know this is something you've talked about too, is kind of navigating all the other psychological biases we bring to the table. And I know this is something you've talked about too about kind of having had a history of anxiety and things like that. You're known as an actor who plays anxious characters. In fact, one of my one of my students once said in the midst of midterms, she was like, I feel like I'm a Tony Hale character this week. For Hale students to be saying that, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, so talk a little bit about like how this has played out even before being an actor in your early life. Yeah, I love that question. Hey, talking to you, which is so intelligent and well-written about psychology, I'm sure I'm sounding like a complete simpleton. But when it comes to anxiety, I, man, there's so many things to say because when I was a kid, I, the word anxiety was not as much of a buzz word as it is now. And I didn't know how to categorize myself. I had a lot of feelings. I was very sensitive, a lot of panic, a lot of fear. And I think I was kind of very extroverted and wanted attention,

but there was a way just to kind of get those feelings out, which is good. I'm glad I had those outlets, but just a lot of interferes. And then I remember at my, I think it was my junior or senior year, I did a show, Little Lavender, and I was this character Marion Sam. And in the middle of the song, I had what I thought was an asthma attack, and it was a panic attack. I didn't know what it was. Then for the rest of my decades ahead, that became a marker of what I was terrified to have again. And I did have it other times, but there was this fear of like, oh my gosh, that's going to happen again on stage, that's going to happen again in an interview, that's going to happen when I have to speak in front

of somebody. And it was just absolute terror. And then over time, kind of getting back on stage and doing things I would, I remember there's this famous preacher named Joyce Myers who would always say, many times we feel like we have to be in this place of peace or strength in order to do stuff. And she's like, you know what, you just got to do it afraid. You just got to keep walking and do it afraid. And I found myself constantly having this mantra of like Tony, just do it afraid. And so I would just keep walking because I can honestly say that I felt like I was a victim to my thoughts and my feelings. I was so drowning in my thoughts and my feelings. I'm never going to work again.

There's that thought that I'm going to have a panic attack. There's that thought that my daughter's going to get kidnapped or anything. There's just these thoughts and feelings that are going by like cars in a highway. And when I became more of an observer of them and took a seat and then identify with them so much, again, this is something I do with all the time, but it was an angle I never thought about. And I was just incredibly grateful to have that new, and I'll never, this other therapist I worked with, who is really just a godsend. And actually, he just gave me tools that I sort of appreciated one being. I want you to close your eyes for 10 minutes a day. And if a picture came in your mind image, and if you find yourself going over conversation, just say words. And the fact is, we cannot control

our thoughts and feelings. We cannot control what goes on our heads. But there was something about putting a name to these thoughts and these images that you're never going to be fully in the driver's seat. But it felt like I was a little more in the driver's seat. And just simple things like that that was great. And to your question of kind of characters that I've played, I do, I do, I do anxiety very well, because I know what it feels like. But I think it is so cool to be in a stage of my life where all the stuff that I've walked through,

and not nearly what other people have walked through, but what I personally walk through, I can bring them into comedy. I can show a more authentic version of anxiety. I can talk about it openly. Like it's it is cool how something that was so broken in my life, how it can be used for restoration and others. And that's a cool equation that happens, I think. Tony's portrayals of anxious characters have made a lot of us laugh, but they've also gotten a

lot of us to think. When we get back from the break, we'll hear more about how Tony learned to listen to the anxious voice in his head, we'll see how really hearing that voice, and showing it some compassion, allowed Tony to make peace with his thoughts and fears, and feel a little happier. The Happiness Lab will return in a moment. Many of us experience a little social anxiety now and then, but we don't usually have to perform in front of a theater full of paying customers, or to step out before a live TV audience of millions.

After Tony Hale, loved being a performer, but his mind was often filled with terror that he'd freeze or panic when the stakes got high, which, as you can imagine, is a scary and lonely place to be. So, how did he overcome it? People who have had panic attacks can understand this. It feels like you're never gonna get out of it. It feels like the tsunami is coming towards you

and it's just going to eat you alive and nobody understands what you're going through. I'll never forget I was about to do Conan O'Brien. And when you're on a talk show, you're about to go on and they have a curtain. And they open the curtain and you walk out. And there were two guys about to open the curtain. I was going to walk out and I felt a panic attack coming on. There was this moment of, I'm either going to run because what I wanted to do is just

bolt. Or what I did by the grace of God is I started asking these two guys' questions that were holding this curtain, and I said, so where are you guys from? Oh my gosh, how long have you been doing this? When it be crazy if there was a documentary but back here about people about,

like I just started to ask them questions to get my eyes off the anxiety. And then the curtain opened and I went. But there's just this, there's this crossroads you hit where it's like, it's coming and you so wanna fight it, you so wanna be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's too early. What you don't wanna do is give yourself over to it,

but that's kind of what you have to do. Like there's something about surrendering to the feelings and be like, you know what? There it is. This is what this feels like. I know this feeling and I know this feeling is going to pass. I remember Bill Hader was talking about his anxiety once. He talked about just how he would have, he would name it as like a funny little friend that would kind of crawl all over him.

And I was doing a play two years ago in San Francisco. And it was a, it was practically a one man play. There was not a character that came in towards the end, but most of it was just me talking for like 45 minutes and every night before going on, I would think tonight's the night that I'm going to lose it on stage in front of a thousand people. And I would, that little voice would come up and say, you know what? Tonight's the night, and I've never had compassion to that voice. I've never looked to the voice and say, Hey, I really appreciate

you being here. I know you're trying to protect me. And I can't tell you how much that means to me. I'm going to go out and do the show, but I'll be back. And there was something about having compassion to that voice. It dissipates the power rather than fighting that voice, which I had done for most of my life, but really giving it the love and care that it needed, because it is a part of me. Am I anxiety? Is it a part of me? And why not begin to embrace and have love towards it?

Because that's what's going to release the power of it. Yeah. I mean, I love, I really love that suggestion for two reasons. One is we know psychologically this idea that what you resist persists. Yeah. Right. If you try to like squish the beach ball under the water, it's going to come flying back out at you, right? So it just doesn't work the resistance. But also recognizing that that voice

is there, it's trying to tell you something and listening to it. I think all too often we think of our emotions, whether it's anxiety or anger or whatever, as this annoying thing that's rumbling around in our brain that we want to shut off. But it's really just like a signal. Like it's like an alarm bell that's telling us something. It's like when you're microwave beeps when the popcorn's done, it's like, it's just telling you something. And if we listen to it say, hey, you know, thanks for telling me this. I do have to go on stage right now.

So I'm not gonna listen to you right now, but you know, thank you for trying to look out for me. It's just such a different relationship with that voice. I love that because the fact is, if you really think about it, this voice has been trying to protect me since I was a kid. So the motivation of this voice is really, begins from a loving place, like wanting to help.

And it has, it got distorted and it was crippling. But the motivation is they just want to protect me and I want to give it that love. I think also, especially, you know, for you as a kid, you had this secondary thing that I think went along with the anxiety, which probably, the voice was really trying to protect you from. I know you've talked before about your history with asthma

and there's such a connection just physiologically between what happens in anxiety and with your breath and what happens in asthma. So, because if anything, I imagine the asthma made you a little bit vigilant in a very anxious way as a child anyway. Yeah, because there's a, I would also get really, really nervous on elevators because I would think if I have an asthma attack, I can't get out and there's a hospital nearby and that just kind of triggered the anxiety and many times it became a cycle where the anxiety

then triggered the asthma. And a lot of people don't talk about the, they talk about asthma, they don't have, they don't talk about the anxiety associated with asthma. And our breath is our life force. So it feels like you're breathing through a straw. Like it is a terrifying feeling and the thought of that coming back and not knowing because anything could trigger it for me, it could be environmental, it could be anxiety,

it could be anything. So you never want it's gonna come, which is very similar to kind of panic stuff. So there's a real kind of similarity between the two. I'm glad you're talking explicitly, because I think people just think, asthma, yeah, it's a big thing, but it's like, no, it comes with all this psychology. But at Stanford, just really quick, like something I've mentioned, I don't give like details, but there's been addiction issues in my family growing up and there's a hypervigilance of being

around addictive cycles and it puts you in kind of high alert a lot. And so there's kind of a perfect storm that can happen with that high alertness, the asthma, all that can kind of like create a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. Talk about hypervigilance. You're like, what the heck is going on? Totally, totally. And I think that the kind of what I wanted to dig into about the anxiety is that it's related to this vigilance that takes you out of the present moment, right? All like all these voices are talking about things in the future, what might happen if, you know, you're kind of fast forwarding. And so has this kind of practice of being in the present moment also reduced your anxiety? Like it's good to just be in the present moment generally, but has that also helped you

with some of these emotions? It has. If I'm honest, it's just hard, man. It's really, it's really, it's really hard to be present. You know, I just admire, my friend of mine, Natalie, him, her and her husband, does they just moved L.A. And Natalie meditates every day day and she really practices it. And I just, it's something that I so,

which came naturally and it just, and I know she's worked at it and started, but I want to do that more because I, it's amazing like you know it really works. If I, if I'm still, and I sit in that stillness and I allow that space, it always works. But man, my body fights to do it. Like it is just not a default. It is not a default for me. And I know the more I do, I get better at

it. But jumping into it is really tough for me, really tough. Yeah, I think you're not alone. Uh, my colleague Dan Harris who talks about this stuff talks about the meditation is kind of grabbing a goldfish in your hands and trying to keep it still while you're like holding it out of the water. That's what we do with our minds. God, I wish I could like be in your hands and trying to keep it still while you're like holding it out of the water. That's what we do with our minds. God, I wish I could like be in your cool circles when you guys talk about this stuff. I bet if you want to talk to Dan Harris, you can do it on his podcast. But one of the things you want to do in one of the

reasons I love talking to you today is that despite the fact that this is so hard for you, you've also come up with this toolkit you can use whenever the stuff comes up. And they're so evidence-based and so straight out of CBT. And you're such a great way of talking about how they work for you. So I kind of wanted you to walk through some of these. One of these techniques that you've talked about

is the not-now technique. So explain what this is and how you might, a situation in which you might use it. Yeah, I feel like I use this a lot. It is very easy for me to live in the what if. My daughter just started driving. So the what if kicks in big time. There's a job that I might be getting in the spring

that there's a lot of uncertainty to the location. So there's a what if there. Again, this is the first time I've thought about this, but I really think these voices are coming from a place of protection. You know, hey, I'm gonna give you every scenario you can think about so that you can prep for whatever emergency situation happens. I think it's motivated

really by a place to help. And I need to have compassion like I hear you, I hear that what if not now right now, I'm having a great talk. This is where I'm now. She has a better zoom background than I do. It's like, it's just like that is where I am now. And during that moment, let me just touch the table. Let me smell the smell. Oh, somebody said, oh, gosh, they used something like 54321 where it was like, have you heard this? It's like, you see what five things you're seeing, four things are you, and you, I don't

remember how it went down, but it was such a great tool. Yeah. So this is one that's often called the five senses technique, where you just force yourself like, what are five things you see? What are four things you hear? What are three things you smell? What are two things you taste? One thing you touch.

And when you get down to like taste, you're kind of like, I guess, my mouth. Exactly. Maybe that's the one. That might be the one yet. But the key is that you can't be thinking about the what if at that point, because you're just kind of scanning for like, well, I guess I smell, you know, my, I hate it.

Or I don't know, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah. And so it's a powerful technique to just ground you in the moment. That's the big thing is grounding. And I recently got into rope bowl making. What, wait, wait, What is rope ball making? It's a rope. I make these rope bowls and they, this friend of mine, Sean, it gave me a rope bowl after I wrapped this last season of the first season of Mr. your spending exciting. And I've always wanted to paint.

I've always wanted to do this kind of, but I'm not a painter. And you make these rope balls on the sewing machine like pottery and then you paint the rope. And it's just, and I give them his gifts and I just can't get enough of it. But it's this, it's a focus practice for me because I, I'm watching this rope going through the sewing machine, I'm painting this rope, I'm listening to something and it's, and it's really, it's a tool I need because maybe for me at this point in my life, I'm getting better at meditation, but doing a ropaul is my form of meditation right now. I'm not sitting in a room quiet

with my legs crossed, but I'm doing something that's a little more focused. So that definitely, that's a tool that really has helped it. But the way to your question is I find myself just saying, not now, a lot, not now. And many many times I don't want to be in the now. Many times I don't want to be in that space, but I not force myself, but I try to ease into it a little more. And just remembering, I think one of the things I love about this mantra of not now is, you force yourself to remember that you have a choice. Right? That, you know, it's not easy, but you can kind of shift back to the now, to the now. There's a choice to our thoughts. I think that is such a powerful realization.

It comes from therapy, it comes from CBT, but it's just powerful to realize, okay, thank you, thought, but I'm not going to listen to you. We'll come back later. You have a choice whether it feels like it or not. Do you know what's crazy, though, is, I don't know if you relate to this, but when I do say not now, if I'm living in a fearful if you relate to this but when I do say not now If I'm living in kind of a fearful what-of-space and I say not now my body does not want to be more in a Comfortable space my body wants to be more in the fearful space and that is something really interesting to analyze like

Why do I why is my default to go to this fearful space for creating this emergency situation? Which is clearly a lot of anxiety and I don't want to be in the silent space. I am now around my family. And you're like, what is that about? You know, that's wild to me. This is a problem. I mean, you know, I wasn't consulted on the design features of our bodies and our brains. But one of the things that has good features, but in this case is not very good Is it, your thoughts are connected to our bodies, right? So you could be not now, not now, not now, but your fight or flight systems activated. You have like, you know, cortisol, the stress hormone rushing through your body. You know, you might be like, not now, but your body's like, no, you're like fear.

Like the future, like what? But the good news is that your thoughts, there's lots of evidence that your thoughts actually can hack your body, right? So if you just start saying, no, not now, oh, let me talk to the guy at the curtain instead. I'm just going to pretend like things are fine. Then your your body reacts to because your body's like, oh, he's talking to the guy at the curtain. I guess this is not an emergency, like, you know, shut everything down, like shut it down. And so it's harder because your body is connected to your thoughts, but you can also use your thoughts to act your body too, which is pretty cool. That is cool. And I think the road bowls is good for that to me too, because it's doing something it really does divert the attention for me big time.

Yeah. Chatting with Tony was an absolute blast. I enjoyed every single minute. We even ran over our scheduled interview slot because we were having so much fun that we lost track of time, which kind of felt nice. This was fantastic. Oh, I love that. Thank you for doing this. Leaning into the present moment like that isn't always easy, and it's especially hard in January when we feel like we should be planning out the entire year ahead, and the hope that that next big thing on the far horizon will finally make us happier. Tony learned the hard way that big things don't always feel as good as we imagine,

and that they don't fundamentally change who we are as people. So this new year, why don't we commit to being a bit more like Tony's Children's Book Creation, Archibald, the brave little chicken who decided to stop being so obsessed with big ticket changes? We can stop worrying about the new jobs, new romances, and new bodies, and instead just be. Next time on the Happiness Lab, we'll look at the many loud and competing voices telling us to change what we eat in 2023. We'll see that we may want to shut them up a bit, so we can listen to a more compassionate

voice that's telling us how to eat for ourselves. The Happiness Lab is co-written by Ryan Dilly and is produced by Ryan Dilly and Courtney Gourino. The show was mastered by Evan Viola and our original music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Shane Beard, Greta Cohn, Nicole Morano, Morgan Ratner, Maggie Taylor, Jacob Weisberg, my agent Ben Davis, and the rest of the Pushkin team. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and by me, Dr. Laurie Santos. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

That was a preview of the Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos. You can find other episodes of the Happiness Lab wherever you listen to your podcasts. you listen to your podcasts.