Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Glennon Doyle is Rethinking Her Relationship to Social Media, Hustle Culture, Intuition, Her Body, and Her Parents

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

The author/podcaster talks about her nonnegotiables at a delicate time in her life.Glennon Doyle is an author, activist, and the founder of Together Rising. She hosts the We Can Do Hard Things podcast and wrote the #1 New York Times bestseller Untamed, a Reese’s Book Club selection, which has sold nearly three million copies. Photo Credit: Alexandra HedisonIn this episode we talk about:The concept of embodimentUndoing harmful deep conditioning around hustle and diet cultureThe role of Internal Family Systems in Glennon’s lifeRelated Episodes:You Don’t Have to be Miserable While Doing Important Work | adrienne maree brownHow To End The War With Your Body | Sonya Renee TaylorThe Anti-Diet | Evelyn TriboleSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/Additional Resources:Download the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/installSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we dive in, is there anything you want to ask me or get off your chest or should we just go for it? I mean, I'm planning to get things off my chest the whole hour, so let's just get started. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings, how we doing? This is a fascinating moment at which to catch up with Glenin Doyle. If you are not familiar with her, she is a phenomenally popular author, podcaster, and activist.

My wife just finished reading Glenin's bestselling book, Untamed and loved it. I say this is a fascinating moment to catch up with Glennon because she has had a pretty tough year as you'll hear her describe it. She's at an inflection point where she's rethinking her relationship to social media, hustle, culture, her parents, her intuition, and her body. This is the latest installment in our New Year's non-negotiable series where we talk to smart people about the practices and principles they can't live without. We are putting this episode at the end of a week where we've been talking a lot about food and eating and how we relate to our bodies because, as you will hear, that is a huge theme in this conversation. I want to thank Glenin for being so incredibly candid.

As you'll hear her say, she hasn't been doing a lot of interviews lately, given what's been going on with her, so I really appreciate her time, and I suspect you will too. When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. One of my favorite types of audiobook is a memoir read by the author, so I'm currently enjoying walking in my joy in these streets, written and narrated by the one and only Jennifer Lewis. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent. You might want to try some new audible Canadian originals

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I'm F.W.H.R.T. I'm Peter Freik.W.H.R.T. I'm Peter Fraggapen. In our new podcast Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we delve into the life of Pablo Picasso. The ultimate giant of modern art, everyone has heard of or seen a Picasso work. Or the Picasso brand on something. But a man with a complicated, difficult, personal side too that makes us look at his art in a different way.

He was a genius and he was very problematic. Follow Legacy Now, wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge entire seasons of Legacy Add Free on Amazon Music, or by subscribing to Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Well, let me ask you this question that I've been asking a lot of our guests. What for you are the non-negotiable practices or precepts that are woven into your daily life? So I actually read that on my notes before we jumped on that you were going to ask me this. And it's so interesting. This question really got me because I have lived my life by non-negotiables.

Okay. I was raised Catholic by football coach and had it eating disorder my entire life. So I sort of my entire life, so my life has been about rules and rituals and practices. And I am one year into my latest anorexia recovery. And for the first time today, I read your non-negotiables question and I thought, oh, that's the opposite of what I'm doing right now. Like anorexia is like living your entire life by a list of do this, don't do this, and never checking in with how you feel or what you want because you don't trust how you feel or what you want. So I mean this morning I did it. I was telling myself I had an hour and I was telling myself I needed to work out. I needed to work out. And I didn't want to work out.

I really wanted to have a quiet morning and I decided not to. And that probably doesn't sound like a heroic act to people who are listening. But for me, this is the first year of my life where I would have listened to that. No, I actually just want a quiet morning. My non-negotiable is that I'm

trying not to have non-negotiables. I'm really trying to wake up each day and just, and honestly, every hour and just, I guess, check inside myself and try to feel if I'm hungry or I'm tired or I'm sad or I'm full of energy. I mean, I haven't done an interview outside my own podcast for a year. This is my first one. I did one six months ago. And I think it's because I'm so scared to actually be present. I'm going to say, if I don't have my list of things. So I'm trying to be, I guess, what they call now embodied. And it's kind of a wild, beautiful way to live that I didn't know that we were allowed to do. So your non-negotiable is fuck it. I'm listening to Glenon.

I think so. That's what I'm working on. Yeah. And it's interesting because it started with non-negotiables. You know, I had to start this recovery with so many non-negotiables. Like, I had to eat three meals a day. I had lost my privileges of deciding when I ate, like I had to do certain things. And I guess that gave me enough sanity. And I don't know, presence in my body to start, well, maybe trusting my appetite allowed me to start trusting other desires and feelings and needs.

I got to stop for a year, like I stopped everything. I stopped traveling, I stopped speaking, I stopped just completely stepped off whatever wheel I was on. And sometimes it takes stopping to start noticing like how you feel and what you want. So that's what I'm working on right now. Contrary to what you said earlier,

I actually do think this sounds pretty heroic. And I mean, this is my opinion here, but we live mostly north of the neckline. And we're not listening many of us, myself included, to the many signals that our bodies are sending to us. And then we end up making some pretty stupid decisions as a consequence. And it sounds like you're trying to break through that barrier. Yeah. And I think we, you know, we can be forgiven for it. It's like if you don't stop and figure out what feels good and what feels bad and what brings you dread and what brings you joy, then you just kind of defer to what the world tells you is going to make you happy and what the world tells you.

So you just keep doing shit. Like you just keep doing all the things that the world tells you will make you more relevant. And it almost works. That's the most dangerous thing. It doesn't not work. It works just enough to keep you like, oh, it's like scrolling almost. You're like, I think at some point I'm going to get to the thing that's going to be the thing I came here for. You never do. You just keep scrolling. That's kind of how I felt about my life. Anyway, I can now feel more happy.

This is so, oh my God, I cannot believe I'm about to be this person. But truly, I can be more happy just like hanging out with my dog. Then the billions of things I was stressing myself out with before, but I do have to be comfortable with being a little bit less relevant. Which has been interesting. It's a process, but I think it's like the work I've been avoiding doing my whole life. Feels pretty good. So there was a certain amount of scrambling on, I don't know, you know, on a

professional front, maybe I'm guessing I'm reading between the lines here. And it was like a false happiness. It was a rough fact. Similarly, like sometimes I think about the fact that the part of the head fuck of the ego is it comes to the ball masquerading as wisdom. You know, it tells you a bunch of stuff that sounds reasonable. Yes, you need to have your social media following up by x percentage. Yes, your podcast needs to reach this level. Yes, you need to make these appointments and look this way. But actually, there's deeper content

and to be found in sitting and doing nothing with your dog. Yeah. And then it's like, OK, so I'm sitting playing with my dog. And my brain's like, oh my god, this is going to be such a great frickin' social media post. Look at me playing with my dog. I am in the moment. I am okay Abby just like get the get the get the single of me playing with the dog and then I'm gonna write an essay about playing with the dog and then that's gonna turn into a book. It's like, I can take the beautiful thing

and just, I don't know, is it like capitalism it? I don't know what it is. It's an interesting place that you do too. It's like you're trying to live into these beautiful ideas. And then you're also in this other world of like telling the beautiful idea. I mean, I have had the most incredible experience lately, having a beautiful moment in my home or by myself or in nature, and then considering the fact, oh no, you just get to keep this for yourself. It almost feels like, I don't know what it feels like. It feels almost like at first it would feel I was wasting it. Then it feels like I almost giggle because it's like, really,

this is just for me. I don't have to turn this into something else. Social media was a big thing for me because trying to learn embodiment while constantly projecting an image of yourself out into the world. I think might be impossible. I've tried, and now I think I've come to the sad conclusion that for now I can't do it, I can't be done. So I'm just not doing it, and I think that has increased my happiness more than 10%. I will tell you, at least 30.

I really, really resonate with what you're saying here about like a thing happens and then you've got to monetize it in some way. I mean, that is a massive problem for me. And it's kind of like intra-personal violence because you can't, you can't actually enjoy anything because it's all going to be content at some point. And I think there would have been a time not too long ago when this would have been an niche concern you and I as memoirists would feel this way. But now in the era of social media, I think this is quite a broad concern. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think we've spread it. It's spread to everybody. It's now everybody

has two lives. And now I find myself looking at everything differently. Like I used to look at social media and think, oh, there's a picture of that person with their kid. But now I don't think of that. I think of, oh, I think of the moment before that. I think, oh, they just stopped that moment to hand the phone to somebody to take a picture of that moment. So, so the actual image on social media is proof of the interruption of

the beautiful moment. So are you off? I am only on for my videos like from the podcast to go out like a clips and then they go out and then people comment. But I'm not putting anything on from my own day. Right, so you and Abby made a huge splash with really bringing people into your lives in which, and I have to say this in your defense, I think was very helpful to a lot of people. I personally do not view it as craven or mercenary.

It was fun and helpful. I think what you're saying though is it might have been helpful for other people, but it wasn't for me and I need to either stop or figure out a way to do it that's the same. I think for now, yeah. I think that's what's so hard about it, right? Is that there is such beauty? I mean, my whole career was, you know, kind of based in social media how it started and how I got a book deal and how our non-profit started and the community there, it was a Christian community. All my writing was like Christian based. That was very faithy. I'm very susceptible to cults. Okay, I'm all like that.

I'm constantly thinking that someone has the answer. It's interesting you say that because I'm thinking about starting a cult, so I'll get your number. Oh, yeah, I'll be employed too. Okay, that's how I do it. If you tell me you have the answer, I have realized that it's fine for me to think there's an answer somewhere. It's fine for me to be a seeker, but the second I think I've found, I'm not allowed to find. No finding allowed for me. I have to just keep seeking. So there is so much beauty. And I do think that like the idea of social media is bad and I can't be there. It's for me

just another rule. You know what I mean? Like I, maybe not today, maybe not this week. I'm open to a different version of me being able to hold both things. But you know how sometimes when you're working on something, you have to like eliminate. You just can tell it's not healthy for me right now. Because for me, I can feel it. Like I feel the moment.

I'm in the moment. I'm in the moment. I'm feeling joy, warmth, humor, whatever. I'm in my body. I'm doing it. And then I feel myself leave to look at myself, to take the picture. Like you actually can feel the process of disembodiment, right? And since I'm supposed to be working on embodiment right now,

I can't pretend that that's not happening. And I think what I've learned about interaxia, what my life tends to be is an extreme version of what is kind of affecting everyone, right? So self-objectification, which is an extreme version of interaxia is kind of what we all do with social media, right? We are no longer just the subject. We're not just seeing. We're considering this double consciousness of also how I'm being seen. And then there's this, you know, the

physics idea of like the thing that is observed is changed just by the act of being observed. And I think that's what I'm most afraid of. I don't want to live a life that's not the one I would where I'm not being observed. I don't want it to like mess up the experiment with this other thing. So we're not saying here that social media is evil. We should all avoid it. But that if you can learn to listen to yourself, your body, your intuition, that might change how you use it. Maybe. I think it's the how, right?

It's always the how. I'm sure, I mean, look, there's people around me that eat without trauma. There's people around me that drink without trauma. There's people around me that drink without trauma. There's people around me that social media without trauma. I can feel what I'm doing in those moments and all of those things there's a leaving and I'm trying to stay. So just the way I'm doing it doesn't work for me. I'm just thinking a little bit about how, because you know, I basically did no social media

until six months ago, maybe four months ago. I just started over the summer, but I don't really do much like in my life. My wife takes a lot of pictures and sometimes I'll post some of those, but mostly it's just, should I learned that I'm saying to the camera? So it's not me trying to be some other version of me.

It's just me teaching what I know or what I've learned. Having said that, you know, my social media is not that popular, so maybe I would have to do what you were doing in order to be really popular. Yeah, I just love that you have different realms that where you don't. Maybe that's eventually where I could go. I don't know. I just think it's dangerous for everything to be content. Yes. It's just, yes just when I think about, I didn't have as clear or developed consciousness about this 15 years ago, 10 years ago. So my home, I was taking pictures of my kids. I was, they would say something cute and it would be, you know, a beautiful teachable

moment for Instagram. Like, you know, I think about when I look back at my parents and the crazy stuff that they used to say and do in front of me about diet culture that now I think my consciousness now looks at them and thinks how could they have not known better. And the only reason I can forgive them is because I think about what my kids probably think about me and the way that I use social media culture. With their consciousness now, they're like, what? I just know that they don't see it. They have a more evolved consciousness about social media.

They're private. It probably looks irresponsible in the same way that my parents talked about or brought die culture into my home seems so irresponsible that I can't conceive of how a good parent could do that. The way now, I mean my oldest, my oldest is studying this area of literature where they study and bring to life stories of cultures where the person didn't have any power. So their story is never in the records in the history. And he's so into this concept. And I thought, do you think it's interesting that you are a kid who was raised in a family whose mother was always controlling the narrative of who you were?

And now this is what you're studying in college. And now Dan Harris, here I am turning that story into a teachable moment for all of us. Oh, well played though. I mean, well played. Is he mad? No, he's not mad at me. I think because we talk about these things incessively. I don't know. I think there's like a I am determined not to have the parental fragility of the previous generation, meaning like I feel as if the generation above me just based on me and my friends, all right, this isn't like something I've studied. It feels to me

like every time we talk to our parents about something we think they could have done differently, they can't entertain it. They cannot talk about it. It's like talking to, like, a white woman like me about race. It's like white fragility, but in parental terms. And it's something about if I question what I did, it will mean I'm a bad parent or I was a bad parent, so I can't even entertain that. And it is the reason why we can't grow, like why we can't get closer as we get older. It's the reason. It's not the mistakes that were made or the different consciousness. It's the inability to reflect on all of it and like hold the mistakes with the good and the so my kids and I just talk about it all the time. But I do, I just think that they probably have feelings. I have feelings about it. I have feelings about even writing,

like I think even writing when you're writing about anyone else. I'm amazed that I did always try to write with such kindness, but I still told people stories, which I find so interesting as I like, it's a bold thing to do. Have you gotten any blowback on it? You know, no, I mean, you know, the basic, my dad says, sometimes, don't you just think there are some things you should take to your grave. He says to me, but no, not really, it's all internal. It's more just like looking back. And I mean, I think one of the reasons why I like podcasting so much, although now I'm writing again, which is kind of fun, but is that it just feels so much less definite. It's like, it's just swirling ideas that

you offer, but it's not like writing feels like I'm like pinning a butterfly down and killing it now. It's just like, I just want to be more gentle or fluid than that. Especially when I keep every decade, I just learn what a freaking idiot I was the last decade in St. Louis to write anything down. I sometimes joke about how if you're doing personal development or personal growth or whatever you want to call it correctly, you should believe you were always an idiot until six months ago. Oh my god. Well that makes me feel like I am nailing it. For real. I mean every time I see somebody with one of my old books I feel like it's like the feeling

of if people, if you were just walking around the world and you just constantly saw people holding your eighth grade picture. Mm-hmm. I would be like, can I just tell you what I think now? Like, can I? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha- a fuzzy term, but it's actually really helpful and she's done a lot of work around it, so I should talk about that, and also her disentangling from things like hustle culture. Coming soon to Matamie Homes, the NOWS Your Time event, offering limited time savings and incentives on new homes and neighborhoods across the GTA and beyond.

Register now at matamahomes.com slash now's your time. Hi, I'm Anna, and I'm Emily. We're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Terribly Famous, a show where we bring you outrageous true stories about our most famous celebrities. Our latest season is all about the Catwalk Queen Naomi Campbell. The years Naomi had to fight to be treated barely in an industry that was overwhelmingly white. That drive saw her break down barriers and reached the pinnacle of high fashion, but it also got her into some dangerous situations when it spilled over into an anger she couldn't control.

In our new season, Naomi Campbell's model behaviour, we tell the story of how a young girl from South London became a trailblazing black icon but had some very public falls of how she stood up to the British tabloids and won, and then lense she had to go to to be the first black woman in history to make the cover a French folk. But she risks losing it all when her explosive behavior lands her in court. Follow Terabie Famers wherever you listen to podcasts, or listen early and add free on Wondry,

thus on Apple podcasts or the Wondry app. Quick reminder, you can join the free 14-day imperfect meditation challenge over on the 10% happier app right now. It features a meditation teacher's car, a lie down, Maricio, and Matthew Hepburn. So, let me just go back to where we started this conversation on like embodiment or getting out of your head. I'm just curious, like you've said repeatedly that you're working on getting better at

this. How? What are the, are there tools? Hmm. Think of all the things that I did. Well, the first six months, I guess it's all gonna sound so ridiculously just human that I don't, I mean, I had to eat. I realized that was an extremely humbling experience

to learn that what I thought was my personality was actually just a freaking list of symptoms, which was really sort of devastating to me, but you know, hypervigilance, anxiety, just really, really strong boundaries. I mean, the first thing one of my therapists said to me was, so how is how you deal with food the same way you deal with people? And I thought this is nuts. And then six months later, I was like, oh my God, like I have safe people. I have unsafe people. Like I keep most people away from me. I only let a few people in. I have rules about people. I have, I started this thing where I felt very murky is the best way I felt very like gravity was applying to me for the first time.

I realized that the way I'd been living my whole life was very high up like you said, which is floaty and fast. It's faster though. We'd be on interviews, Abby and I in the beginning of my recovery and Abby would look at me like Are you gonna do your thing? Like I was so much slower and like I and I started to panic. I was like is this making me stupid? Like did anorexia make me smart like what? I Think what was happening was

That I don't know the only way I can describe it as I was like dropping Out of my head into my whole body. I went for a walk every single morning and this wild thing started happening on the walks, which was that I think the only part of recovery I'd ever gotten through was like part one where you just stop doing the thing that's causing all the drama. But I didn't do the second part which was like stop ignoring the thing that was causing you to try to numb all of the feelings. And so during these walks stuff started rising like memories and things I hadn't dealt with at all and family of origin stuff that has been like my final frontier.

I don't know part of embodiment for me has not just been like sometimes the way it's talked about, which is like, you know, feel your fingers, feel your hands, feel your feet, which all that stuff does help. But for me, it was like, once I stopped listening to the constant swirling, things started to rise. And then those are the things that the not eating was about. And I still think that's some kind of weird, I don't know. That's one cool thing that I'm trying to work out in my writing is like how all of these things were completely connected.

But this past Thanksgiving was the first holiday since I was 10 years old that I didn't have any food trauma or drama. I felt so full of joy and happy and then for the night time I felt so sad because I felt so sad for myself because I was like, oh, this is how everyone else has been being. Trying to think of what else helps with this whole embodiment thing. I mean, for me, I've really spent a lot of time, although I think now I might think differently, but I really had to... I seem to only understand things through language, and so I really had to stop saying,

I have a body for a very long time. And started saying, I am a body because understanding it as a have made me feel like it was something that I like an accessory, like a purse or something that was separate from me that I needed to control or perfect. So I really needed to start understanding that my body is me, that I'm not just this like brain

with a body attached, that there's so much wisdom in my legs, like my legs are tired, why? Because I need to rest. This is crazy to me. This system of signals. You know, the wisdom of the rest of it is like so such a magical thing for me to discover at 47 years old. I mean, I've just spent the last year. I realized that my clothes, I once walked into my closet and I tried to put on a pair of sweatpants and my sweatpants were too tight. And I kind of freaked out and I went upstairs and said to Abby, my sweatpants are too tight. And Abby said, what kind of person has sweatpants that if they gain five pounds, their sweatpants are too tight.

And I went back to my closet and I realized that my entire closet was made up of things that would police me from the outside. I looked at my closet and suddenly it was just like a line of soldiers, just like rigid, tiny pants, like small, what kind of person creates this outside police force so that every time they put on clothes they get feedback from their clothes. I just spent a year just one laundry basket at a time like carrying clothes out to the garage just that was terrifying for me and so liberating. It's like this growth that is happening to you on a kind of a spiritual level, but also is like, it's proof. It's like happening to your body at the same time. That was

intense. It's been a year. It's been a year. I mean, I hear all this and again, this is one person's opinion, but I hear all this and I think, congratulations, seriously. I mean, this is one person's opinion, but I hear all of this and I think, congratulations, seriously. I mean, this is an incredible amount of work that you've been able to do in a year. And you're working on doing really deep conditioning that many people deal with men, women, and everywhere in between and doing it out loud is incredibly helpful.

Thank you. And I think there's a way of looking at it that maybe a lot of us, I don't think all of us, I've met plenty of people who I don't think have this, but I do think a lot of us have this achievement. I have a dear male friend who I feel like he will, he's told me, he sees himself in the productivity gospel of this. It's like He as well as I Were taught this culture that's right alongside die culture that is like hustle culture Mm-hmm

And it also requires you to only live outside of yourself and to never stop and to never question what you really want or what actually makes you happy. It only requires you to stay completely cut off from your own bodily needs and to only look at what the culture tells you is going to make you happy and to override, you know, it's so centered on discipline, like that word, when I first read about anorexia, like the recurring word discipline, discipline, like that word, when I first read about anorexia, like the recurring word discipline, discipline, like that has been my religion discipline, it's my religion. That's, you know, I'm, I was Catholic, I'm a woman, I'm like, I was probably trying to not

be queer my whole life. Like I was disciplined and I just kept reading that going, okay, if your entire life is based on discipline, then that means you're a disciple of something. Like what am I a disciple of? What am I trying to be? And so really you have to think of like, what is the ideal version of this thing you're trying to be? And then when you, I think one of the things that happened to me

is I've met a lot of those people who were the ideal version of the thing that I was being sold. And there was so much misery and not enoughness there. When you see the pinnacle of the thing and that the pinnacle is miserable, then you realize you're like, what's that thing? We're the Buddhist thing. We're climbing the ladder, but it's like the wrong freaking ladder. You're like really high on it, but you're on the wrong ladder completely. Whatever is the culture that you're in or the hamster wheel you're on that requires you not to feel your own feelings or, you know, indulge your own exhaustion or be fully

human, that's probably something you're being sold. It's benefiting somebody else. Be fully human. That's probably something you're being sold. It's benefiting somebody else. Coming up, Glennon talks about getting back into writing, how internal family systems, which is a school of psychotherapy, has helped her and her relationship to the concept of the self. Being an actual royal is never about finding your happy ending, but the worst part is, if they step out of line or fall in love with the wrong person, it changes the course of history.

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you get your pie. You can listen to the best one yet add free or right now on a Wondery Plus. You might be familiar with this woman's son, your Renee Taylor, who you're smiling. She does a sort of non-cheesy version of self-love. And when she came on this show, she said something to the effect of, when I hear self-criticism around my body or my productivity, I realize that's not my voice. It's the voice of the system. Yeah, she's a hero. Everybody should read. My body's not an apology. Sonja and a Taylor. Adrian Marie Brown does so much around, I mean, these are people who are so in their bodies and are so doing the most world-changing

work. Like I think people think like if you do one, you can't do the other, but the people who are so in touch with who they are are bringing forth the thing that only they were meant to bring forth. Not like the generic thing that everybody who's hustling, hustling, hustling, you know, it's like you can feel the truth in what they're doing because it came from inside of them Yeah, as you were saying I think many of us believe that if we slow down and get in touch with our body whatever that means I think even that

phraseology can be problematic because it's it comes with so many cultural cliches But I think a lot of people fear that if we do that, we're going to be totally ineffective. But actually, these examples that you're pointing to prove that you can be even more effective and you're spending less time on the wrong ladder. Yeah, I think that's right. That's how I feel right now. I feel I'm writing again, just started writing again a few weeks ago.

I always said that people would say, why don't you write another thing after untamed? I always think, I don't know any other things. I put everything I know in the book. I don't have a bunch of leftover things. But I do. It's all in there. And then I thought, okay, I'm not going to, I feel like books are such a sacred thing with people.

Like I want, I'm not gonna write another book until I'm like a whole another, until I, until I can't not. Yeah. I'll do whatever else until then, but until I can't not. And then I thought I never would, because I felt like writing was so lonely. I felt like this dark place I had to go to away from my family and away from people. And now that I'm in a marriage that I love and in a family that feels like joy, I don't want to leave it.

And then suddenly I felt like I was a new person. And I'm writing again because of all this stuff that I let rise during the last year and a half. And because I used to like tell this story, I mean, during the last year and a half. And because I used to like tell this story, I mean, there's lines in my first book that's like, I had a magical childhood. So I don't know why I'm so broken.

Like I'm just, I was just born broken. That is something that I wrote in my first memoir. And so I think like what I've, I realize I'm not at all broken. Like I, I'm not at all broken. Like I'm pretending to be broken. So that my family doesn't have to look at all the ways it was broken. So that we just keep having me to like, I don't know,

it's very fascinating. And my family is so beautiful and so loving. And like so many families had stuff that happened in it because of generational trauma, because of stuff that was passed down that weren't good enough, that made me hide in ways that made the rest of life really difficult. And so I think it's not helpful to not be able to tell the truth about all of those things. And it feels like such an honor to be one link in the lineage that has the time and the privilege and the space and the money for therapy and the whatever to actually do that work.

Because at the beginning of this journey, Dan, I used to be like, what the fuck was everybody else doing? Like, what did my, as my grandfather just not, did he just not think that the, like, why did nobody do their work? So that I had, well, they were on a boat. They were escaping a famine. It's like every link has their duty. And then maybe, instead of being bitter, that mine is like kind of trying to transform

some of this trauma for the next generation. Maybe it's just a beautiful thing for our lineage that I get to have this part where the work is internal, but it doesn't feel less hard than crossing an ocean sometimes. It's amazing how if you look at things in terms of lineage, in terms of causes and conditions unfolding over huge swaths of time, people's behavior becomes less easy to vilify. Yes. That's it.

It was not hard for me to vilify for the first year, for six months. I think I'm a year and a half in now. I needed to, like, I needed to needed to like let all of it out. I needed to like let that like little part of myself be heard. I needed to be pissed about it. I really did vilify just personally, but I did some vilify. And then it just widened and widened and I was able to see how much everybody's just like getting the, okay, here comes my football coach daughter, but like everybody's just

getting the ball like 10 yards down the field, every generation, you know, and actually the generation before me did a hell of a job. Didn't clear it all up, but compared to what they came from, hell of a job. But I think we don't get to that perspective unless we let ourselves go through the little vilify part. Yeah, that's probably true. You know what I mean? Like we're all holding it so tight.

We think we can't say that wasn't good enough. That wasn't. We can't let that part of ourselves be seen and have its voice because it won't be fair or something, but I don't think we get to the fair until we let that part say whatever it needs to say to feel safe again. Back to your recovery for a second. In your travels, have you encountered intuitive eating? I wonder if that's been helpful because it has for me. That's why I'm bringing it's been helpful. Because it has for me.

That's why I'm bringing it up. It's been hugely helpful for me. I think it's everything. I'm trying, I think that's what I'm doing. Like I'm trying to like intuitive life. I'm trying to intuitively sleep. Intuitively speak. I'm trying to only do things professionally that actually make me feel happy and light and

curious. For me, I truly will tell you that I did not believe I thought that intuitive eating sound did lovely for other people. I did not in fact think. I then I became believe when I was 10. So I just thought I broke myself. Like I did not think that I could sit down at dinner, eat, feel full. Like my body was just. And so the first, you know, I got through the first three months and then I started doing that. Like I started eating and then noticing that I felt okay and satisfied

and then noticing that three hours later, I started to feel hungry again and then I would eat and feel satisfied and I could not believe it. I was walking around going, you could not believe this shit, like you could not believe, and also I'm just thinking of this now, but this is something to be said for not learning these things until you're so much older,

is like, I am so grateful. I go, you know, like what other people take for granted and that feels just like normal to them and they don't even notice, I am so joyful and grateful about. And that idea of intuitive eating, that my body has a wisdom to it. Like, Sonja and A Taylor, her opening of her book talks about like the acorn,

that all of the wisdom of the oak tree is already inside of the acorn. And all that needs to happen is for the acorn to express. It's all there. It's all in here. Like I don't need rules. I don't need any of the outside stuff to be found. Like it's all,

huh. So, yes to intuitive eating, yes to considering the possibility that all of this is supposed to be intuitive, the eating, the sleeping, the drinking, the loving, the reading to miracle drinking, the loving, the reading, to miracle. I have had similar feelings of, on the one hand wishing that I had learned this stuff

when I was younger, and then on the other hand, really recognizing that I am extra grateful to have learned it at this stage. Let me try something of this, I've got an intuition, and this may be, I'm not sure I fully trust my intuition yet, but you said a few things earlier that got me thinking about some of the kind of,

more esoteric out there aspects of Buddhism. You were talking about how I don't have a body, I am a body, that was one thing you said. And the second thing you said was how insulting it when you were tongue in cheek, but it was so humbling to realize that you thought it was your personality, but it was just a list of symptoms. And in Buddhism, we talk about, and this is such a hard idea for people to grok, and this is why I'm not sure I'm

doing the right thing by even talking about it, but that there actually is no solid self. And in that is the real liberation. And I don't know if those, okay, you're waving your hand at me. Yes. What's that talking? No, that just keeps it. That is it. That is it. I don't know. Oh my God. It's just like my whole life. I'm trying to put something after I am and then stick to that thing. And it's just painted me in a corner over and over and over again and then I want to get out.

And I think there is a part of myself. Okay, so you know internal family systems. Yeah, yeah, love it. Me too. It's helped me so much. And I do feel like right now I'm trying to figure out, I'm not trying to figure out who I am. I'm trying to stop trying to figure out who I am. I'm trying to stop trying to figure out who I am. That's what I'm trying to do.

That is what I'm trying to do. But it helps me now to think of myself as a community. That's it. It really does because I think that I was a person who I thought that I fixed my bulimia, but I didn't. I fixed my bulimia by becoming anorexic, right? Like there's like a wild like destructive like we have to get out of here. This is not safe, a safe world self. And then I just exiled her. Like that little bulimic wild self was just exiled

and she was coming back, man, you know? So now I feel like I can picture myself as a bunch of little parts at a conference table. And there's like one of us at the head of the table who can listen to all the other parts, who mean well, but this one at the head is just a little bit wiser, just a little bit less fear, no damage, no trauma, no whatever, and that that person can listen to all the other ones and then make the best call for us, right?

But when I smush the other voices down, ooh, they're coming out somewhere. And I think my whole life, I have been just trying to figure out who am I, what is the self? And the idea that maybe there is no self for me to discover. And that maybe there's just life to live, feels like a terrifying relief.

On big long meditation retreats, the moment when people see, you know, they've had their eyes closed and they're looking at the machinations of the mind. And ultimately, it hits people at some point that there's no one home really. There's nothing here. There's no solid ground to stand on. It's just impermanent phenomena arising and passing away and they call that the rolling up the mats stage

because it is terrifying and people don't want to look at it. Yeah, I was walking in the beach last night and I thought it was so beautiful and I thought this is another thing that other people probably have figured out a while ago. But I thought this is why the universe is so beautiful so that we look at it and not obsess inward. This is why music is so beautiful. I used to never understand why people love music.

I mean, it's nice, whatever. But now I get it. It's like, oh, because I think people love music because of music,. I mean, it's nice, whatever. But like, now I get it. It's like, oh, because I think people love music because of music, but I also think it's just because we're not listening to ourselves. Yeah, yeah. That's it. The Greek word for ecstasy means to stand outside of yourself.

And I think that's what's happening in music or when you're in nature. And this is like a sense of smallness that can be really healthy. Yes. But like, oh my gosh, then it gets so much weirder because you have to be a self to do that. Okay, so, or you don't have to be a self, but you at least have to have like a place to stand inside of yourself. So here's the beautiful part about what drives me the most, like, explodes my mind about embodiment is I, okay, I was shopping like last week and there was this ridiculous sparkly bracelet, which by all accounts was

extremely tacky and terrible, okay? And Abby said clearly you're not going to buy that bracelet. And I thought, I think I am going to buy this bracelet. And I thought, I think I am going to buy this bracelet. Because why? Why do I want to buy this bracelet? Because I like looking at it. Oh my God. That's not why I have stuff. I have stuff, so other people will look at it and think something about me. I have stuff so that other people about me. I have stuff so that other people will see it and think whatever the hell I think they're going to think about the thing that I have in my house or in my body. I want this bracelet because I like looking at it. That means I am figuring out how to be the subject, like how to look and not think about being looked at. So it's like,

yes, ecstasy outside of the self, but then you have to have a strong self to even experience it. Yes. Okay. Yes. I mean, the way it's sometimes I've heard this is an expression that you have to be somebody before you can become nobody. And I guess from a Buddhist therapist standpoint, I might be wrong about this, but I think one could analyze your story and say, all of that performance was a desperate attempt to build up a self, right, in the face of the horror of knowing that there is nobody home, right? That's what we're all doing on some level.

I think that's an argument I've heard made before. Maybe maybe I'm mangling it. You have to become a self before you become no self makes perfect sense to me. I don't know how you would skip it. I don't know how you would skip it. But it does make the idea of death so much less scary. I have always thought the idea of death feels so much less scary than the idea of life. Yeah, yes.

It makes perfect sense to me that at some point, we would return to whatever is the no-selfness. It's the having a selfness. That's the tricky part. And I guess the theory is that life could be a lot less terrifying if we could learn the lessons that death will teach us now. Yeah, I believe that. Yeah.

I'm sensitive to your time, so that's probably a pretty good place to leave it. I have to say, it's been absolute pleasure. And I know you're not doing many interviews these days, so I'm very grateful to you for making time to do this one. I knew that it would be so wonderful, and it was. You're just such a good listener, and you're just wide open and kind, and I just really have loved this hour. Thank you. I appreciate that very much. I'm at least 20% and half year, right?

Thanks again to Gunn and Doyle. It was awesome to meet her. She's fantastic. Also thanks to her wife Abby for doing all the technical work on the show. She hooked up the microphone, et cetera. And if you want to check out some episodes with folks that we mentioned during the show, you can go to the show notes and get links to the interview I did with Sonia Renee Taylor and also Adrian Marie Brown.

Thanks to you for listening. Don't forget our newsletter. You can sign up in the show notes. And thanks most of all to everybody who worked so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Justine Davie Gabriel, Zacharyman Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production. And Kimi Regler is our executive producer, Alicia Mackie, leads our marketing and Tony Magyar, is our director of podcasts, finally Nick Thorburn of Islands, wrote our theme.

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