Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How A Buddhist Monk Deals With Anxiety Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

New episodes come out every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for free, with 1-week early access for Wondery+ subscribers. Anxiety has long been a massive societal issue that has spiked during the pandemic. In this episode, renowned Buddhist monk Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche talks in detail about how he personally works with anxiety and panic and the practices he draws upon when dealing with these states.  Mingyur began doing long retreats in his teens and now teaches all over the world. He's written the books The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness and In Love with the World: A Monk's Journey Through the Bardos of Living and Dying. He also oversees the Tergar Meditation Community, a global network of Buddhist meditation centers.   In this episode we talk about:  Working with strong emotions using sound and the breath Deconstructing your reality to make it workable Understanding what awareness is in a Buddhist sense  How to make meditation free-range and available to you all times  The simple but also tricky advice of, "stop doing and just be"  When to take a step back or even take a break from meditation What Mingyur Rinpoche says is the true purpose of the practice. This interview was recorded in person at the TED conference in April of 2022, where both Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche and Dan Harris spoke. Full Shownotes:  https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/yongey-mingyur-rinpoche-472

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, everybody. How we doing? I had a funny experience when I was asked to give a TED talk a couple of years ago. I showed up at the TED conference in Vancouver, and I was completely freaked out and anxious. I know, I know, I know. I've been doing public speaking my whole life. How could I be so nervous? Don't forget, I'm the guy who had a panic attack on live television, which you can Google. I think if you put in the words panic attack on television, it's the first result. It's probably the best known achievement, if you want to call it that, in my life, having a live panic attack. So that explains, in part at least, why I was so nervous when I arrived at TED.

While that panic attack back in 2004 was largely fueled by cocaine, which I don't do anymore, I still really do get nervous about public speaking. Plus, I'd never done a TED talk before, and that seemed like a uniquely terrifying experience. Also contributing to my nerves, I was debuting material from a book that I've now been working on for many, many years. I was really worried about how that material would be received. So anyway, I was super relieved when on the first day, I went to lunch in the area where all the speakers have their meals, and I saw that Mingyre Rimpashe was there. You may have heard that name Mingyre Rimpashe before. He's been on the show several times. He's a renowned Buddhist monk from Nepal. He's the

son of a revered meditation master, and he started doing long retreats himself in his teens, and he now teaches all over the world. He's written several books, including the joy of living and in love with the world, and he oversees the Tergar meditation community, which is a global network of Buddhist meditation centers. Long way of saying he's a very impressive dude. In any event, when I saw him, I went right over to him and asked, how are you doing?

And his answer was, and I'm quoting here, dying. In other words, he was just as nervous as I was. I wasn't entirely surprised by this, honestly, given that the Mingyre has been very public about his own history of panic attacks, but really that story was a delightful example of how honest and relatable the dude is. And even though he was nervous, he did take time to look out for me. The next morning, he carved out some time and he and I got together and he led me in a one-on-one guided meditation and taught me a little bit about how to handle fear. and in the end my talk went reasonably well. I've now brought him onto this show to help all of us, not just keeping him to myself,

not just hoarding all of his time for selfish purposes. Anxiety has been a massive societal issue, and it has spiked in recent years. I feel like many of us have this sometimes conscious, sometimes subconscious inner talk track that is constantly secreting thoughts like, how am I doing? Is everything okay?

Am I safe? Does this person like me? Do they not like me? Et cetera, et cetera. And in this interview, Mingyre talks in detail about how he personally works with anxiety and panic and the practices he draws upon from his years of study. And I should say that these practices,

even though he's an eminent monk, these practices are doable for all of us. We talk about working with strong emotions using sound and the breath. We talk about deconstructing your reality to make it more workable. We talk about understanding what awareness is in a Buddhist sense, how it's our fundamental nature and always present, how to make meditation free range and available to you at all times, in other words, portable, the simple but also very tricky advice of stop doing and just be, when to take a step back and even take a break from meditation, and what Mingyer says is the true purpose of the practice. A couple little notes before I dive in here. First, I should say that we recorded this at the TED conference. Big thank you to the wonderful people at that organization who gave us a space and the equipment to record.

A couple days after we recorded this, Mingyer actually delivered his own TED talk, and he didn't die. I was in the fourth row. He completely nailed it. He got a standing ovation. I'll put a link to his talk in the show notes. The other thing to say before we dive in here is that this episode was originally posted back in July of 2022, but we thought it was worth going back into. the archives and reposting it. We'll get started with Mingyur Rinpoche coming up right after this. Mingyur Rinpoche, welcome back to the show. Great to see you. It's so nice to be with you in

person, I have to say. Thank you. Thank you very much. And full disclosure to people listening, I've had a chance to spend a little bit of time with Rinpoche over the last couple of days, and I consider that to be an extreme privilege. So thank you very much. As we talk, as we sit here right now, you are personally two days away from your first TED talk. And one of the things that's really helped me as I was ramping up to deliver my first TED talk yesterday was that you were very open with me about the fact that you have been nervous. In fact, the first day where I saw you, which was the first day of TED, I said, how are you doing? And you smiled and said, dying. And to have somebody who's practiced as deeply as you have.

admit that was just incredibly impactful for me. So I'd love to hear how are you doing right now as your talk approaches and how do you handle your nervousness and anxiety? Of course, I feel nervous about this. There's some kind of like sense of fear. But for me, the most important thing is I always discover kind of like can be with something

beyond fear and anxiety within me, kind of a deeper level, the sense of contentment, like joy. And these are why I feel like that way, because I received a lot of meditation teachings in the past and I've been practicing meditation and a sense of discovery that our fundamental nature is wonderful. There is what I call awareness, love and compassion, wisdom. three in one. And that is a background of fear, background of panic, depression. Of course, life has so many things. Not so easy, up and down, up and down. And I cannot stop up and down. And even if I stop up and down, I become like zombie, isn't it? So in a way, I'm happy to have

some anxiety. But at the same time, of course, anxiety is anxiety, and I'm fully aware of this anxiety. At the same time, like, I don't mind to have anxiety, kind of a true funny feeling together, yeah. Let me see if I can restate some of that back to you just to make sure that I understand it. It's so interesting to hear the notion that you're happy to have anxiety on some level. So if I understand this correctly, there are the waves in your mind. Yeah. Fear, nervousness, but then there is what is knowing that the waves are there. Yeah. Awareness, which comes with love and wisdom. Awareness, awareness, love and wisdom,

three in one. So when I was young, when I feel nervous, what I have is only nervous. That's all. Deeper level, uncertainty, cold, lonely sometime. Although my father kept telling me you have this wonderful nature, and I don't believe it,

I thought he's doing his job, you know, father's job. Just try to please me. But then as I practice meditation, this experiential, style. And there's aha, it's time. And then I had panic attacks when I was young. That really helps me. I'm considered my panic as my teacher, my friend. So now I went, you know, wandering retreat. Life is not so easy. I was with my attendant, with a wonderful place, with nice food,

nice warm bed, comfort zone. Of course, a little bit naive at the beginning. I'm thinking that, oh, you know, wonderful things happen. I almost die. But even the moment I'm almost going to die, I try to practice meditation. And what I discover is awareness is so present, even though my body become paralyzed, I cannot see, I cannot hear.

And the normal thought are gone, but the fundamental quality of awareness become more vivid, more present. I think a lot of people will hear this and say, okay, that sounds great. I've got so much stress and anxiety in my life. I've got good things too, but there are ups and downs and the downs suck. And you're saying I need to not have the downs or the anxiety or the fear or the anger, whatever,

take up the whole screen. I need to be able to drop out of it and into this space of non-judgmental, warm awareness. How? So the key point is not try to get out of panic or not try to fight with the panic, not try to do anything with the panic, actually. The key point is be with awareness. So I was born in the Himalayan mountain, right middle of the mountain, what we called Manasilu, at highest mountain in the world.

And we have a lot of storms in the Himalayan mountain. The winter, we have snowstorm, summer, thunderstorm. I was really afraid of those storms, you know. It's time, dn-d-d-d-d-d-like there, and run. I just quick run inside my house and hiding there. In the winter, we have snowstorm, the wind coming from the north to the south. And I run and hold the pillar in the middle of the house, and my mom was laughing. So much of that happening in the mountain.

And my father said, all these storms, cloud, comes in the sky. But no matter how the stone's storm there in the sky, the nature. The nature of sky cannot be changed by stone or pollution. Sky is always present, pure, calm, and you can have cloud, allow cloud to come and go. But the problem is, of course, when he told me at the beginning, a problem for me is, yeah, maybe you can do that. How come I have this wonderful nature?

I'm so unhappy. And I cannot barely manage with my panic. What I'm thinking is, what I have is only panic. I cannot see this wonderful sky within me. But then he said, you have to connect with that systematic practice, step by step. So first step for me is sound meditation. So important thing is, you just listen to sound. Let panic come and go.

Don't try to stop panic. Important thing is what we call awareness to check. Do I still remember the sound or not? As long as if you still remember, you can have thought, you can have panic, you can have pizzas, what I call. What is it? Pizza? Pizza? Pizza? Two pizza, three pizza? Ten pizza comes around you, if you still hear the sound, you're fine. So that is meditation.

So when you allow these things, then that is the beginning of acceptance, beginning of forgiveness, self-love, self-compassion. Not so easy, of course. And for me, it's not easy. I've been meditating since nine, but still I'm learning every year. And that is why you're happy to have nervousness and anxiety for your talk. Because it's teaching you to get better at meditation. Yep. It makes me more alive, and it remind me more practice. I'd love to get you to say a little bit more about how to do this sound meditation. Because I, as you were describing it, I was kind of projecting myself into it.

and imagining that I would be sitting there listening, say I'm sitting in a hotel room and I'm hearing the traffic noise outside and the motion in the elevator shaft and maybe the cleaning staff in the hallway, hearing all of these sounds, and then noticing big waves of fear or anxiety or whatever afflictive emotion happens to be

in the playground at that time. And I can imagine yanking myself back into the sound, kind of being aggressive about, oh no, no, you've gotten lost, bad boy, be hypervigilant for more sounds to listen to so that we can get out of this terrible emotion. I know that's not the correct way to practice, but I can imagine myself practicing in that way. So what should I do? Yeah, of course. At the beginning, what we call it's very difficult to work with strong emotion. So at the beginning, we try to find nice place, quite reasonable, calm environment. And you can begin with the

quite calm sound at the beginning. But how to practice that, normally what we call relax muscles in your body? Relax meaning, let it be as it is. If you cannot relax, allow that cannot relax. Just be as it is. And keep spine loosely straight, and you can close your eyes if you want at the beginning.

Then just listen. Ear and the mind together. Let's say, I'm snapping. It's just, if you hear now, That is meditation, actually. Just here. Hear with your mind. Sometimes we hear the sound with the ear and mind only listen or thinking with pizza.

Forget about the sound. But if you not forget the sound, you are in meditation. You don't need strong focus. You don't need to stop thought. And any sound actually. If you are in the hotel, people are chatting, you can listen to chat. Or the car, the traffic, you can jump to the traffic. Or maybe birds there, you can listen to birds.

Or someone coughing, you can listen to cough. You can jump here and there, no problem. As long as if you remember the sound. It's almost like pre-pro listening, meaning you just open your ear. You don't need to even look for sound. Let sound come to you. And of course, we cannot listen sound too long at the beginning.

Only a few seconds, what I call a glimpse. Glims, we may forget or we unclear. Doesn't matter. Okay, short time, many times. What happened? Then slowly, slow awareness become more salience. Actually, what we call you, don't have to do anything. Just being with the sound.

And that really changed, actually. Mind become pliable and walkable, yes. I wonder if people might get confused when you say remember the sound because people might think, well, I'm recalling some sound from a few minutes ago. But you mean just remember to hear what's effortlessly appearing in your ear right now. Yes. Remember that you're still hearing. Am I forget sound? No, no, no, I'm still hearing. If you hear, you're fine. But problem, most people, what they do is, I have to focus on the sound. Oh, thought, coming. Peace are coming. No, no, no. only sound very clear, concentrated, then become problem.

Well, you've just described most of my meditation career right there. And what has really helped me is to remember that the awareness requires no effort at all. It is happening without quote unquote me. And sometimes I even just say the word in my mind effortless, just to bring me back to the fact that I don't have to do anything to hear. It's happening without me. Yes. Yes.

That's correct. That's correct. So that's a aha. Yes, that is a aha. And you will discover more about yourself. And that is awareness is your fundamental nature. Your consciousness is awareness. And that awareness sometimes what we call luminosity, clarity and self luminosity. It's like lamp. Awareness itself is awakeful, a wakeful present.

So actually, you don't have to meditate. You just be with your mind as it is. Everything's there. But of course, it takes time to do. Not do, you know. Right, right, right, exactly. It takes time to learn how to not do. Yes.

And I think what's so helpful about your honesty, about your own situation, about your own mind, is that even all these years into meditation, all of these people you've taught how to meditate, here you are at a moment where there's some anxiety coming up in your own mind, and you have to remember to be with whatever's happening right now rather than eating the pizza. Yeah. Coming up, Mingya Rimbusha on connecting with awareness through sound and the breath,

how to think about meditation as building a muscle and specific practices for working with anxiety and panic. Right after this. Before we started rolling, you said there were three steps that you often discuss with your students. Because I asked you, what are you hearing from your students these days? And you said anxiety, not only about their own lives and also about the state of the world. The first step, I believe, was sound meditation, which we've covered. Yeah. So first step is what we call, of course, awareness is always with us, always present, wonderful.

But to connect with that at the beginning, not so easy. For example, this room has full of light, right? Now there's a light here in this empty room. So how you connect to the light, not easy to see light in the empty space. You can see light on that wall, here on the table, on your face. So you can see light on something. In the space itself, to connect with the light in the space itself is quite difficult at the beginning. So therefore, we need to have support.

The support of the awareness is, could be sound, could be your own breath, or what I call mental rest. You can come up a word, any word is okay. Traditionally we use mantra. So mantra is okay, anything sometimes what I call, I'm fine, everything's fine, I'm fine, everything is fine, that is also okay. So come up a word and recite that word silently.

Don't use your mouth. So when you do that, what happens? You are connecting with awareness, being awareness through sound, being awareness through your own. breath or the mental recitation. Let's say sound, being, knowing, be aware. That is the awareness. But you cannot aware, awareness itself at the beginning, but with object. And then, second benefit is it is become like mental exercise, you know. When you go into the gym,

we do all this exercise. At the beginning, we cannot do too much. We do a little bit, little bit. And slowly, throughout our body become fit. It's good for immune system in our body. Become more healthier, more flexible, more pliable. Same thing with the mind. At the beginning, you cannot listen to sound too long. You cannot recite the word too long.

But slowly, slowly, become longer, clear, more effortless. And awareness become automatically salient, more and more. So these are first steps of what I call at least we have to do this about one to two months. And every day, at least five minutes. Every day is important, regular. You cannot do too much, that's okay.

But every day, a little bit, little bit, little bit is very important. Like exercise, you cannot do too much just one time, but you have to exercise every day, a little bit of day. This is the first step. And second step, what we call, now, normally what we call, we can meditate everywhere anytime with anything. So one time I was in one big city, I saw big truck in front of me, you know. When I go, my driver, when I go to the right side, truck comes right side.

When we go to the left side, truck comes to the left side. And I was a look. It's a shipment truck, you know, shipping things. And behind said, you can ship everywhere anytime, anything. So I thought it's good for meditation advertisement. So now I change. You can meditate everywhere, anytime, with anything. So therefore, you can use your own problem now.

So I use my panic. But if panic is your major affliction or major strong emotion, then don't try with the panic first. Try with the small one. So when I was young, I tried to work with the panic. It's overwhelming. I cannot even watch. then suddenly my body become my heart speed up and I will sweat

and I feel I cannot breathe and my neck become very tight. Then what I do is my father said, try to find another emotion. So I look anger. I don't angry oftenly. Anger is not so much issue with me. So then I try to remember past anger and be with anger. And that is stepping stone.

Eventually I can be with my panic. So when I can be with my panic, what we call, when you see the river, you're out of river. When you see the mountain, you're out of mountain. When you see the television now, you're not in the program, you're not in the television. So when you see the river, you're out of river, but you don't have to stop the river.

Let river come. Normally what happened? We have fallen in the river, carry by river. Then if the river becomes waterfall, very dangerous, right? If you fall in the river, then river becomes waterfall, big problem. But if you see the river, that means you're out of river, then doesn't matter. If river becomes waterfall, better.

Many people spend a lot of money to see the waterfall, right? Inner waterfall. But of course, at the beginning, not so easy, of course. So that is a benefit of awareness. But if you don't, many people, when you look at the panic, sometimes, cannot find it. You cannot find thought. You cannot find panic. Wonderful if you cannot find. That is what we call non-conceptual moment.

If you can find panic, wonderful. You're out of panic. So sometimes I make joke. There are two liberations here. Horizontal liberation and vertical liberation. Horizontal meaning gap. When you look at the panic, panic disappear. You cannot find it.

There's a gap. Gap between past and future. And the vertical liberation is, you can see, panic, like seeing the river. When you see the river, you're out of river. So when you see the panic, awareness become more than panic. So liberation comes front and back. That's what I call vertical.

You don't have to go out of panic, but because of awareness comes automatically. You come out of panic automatically, though there is panic. So you have now sky and you have cloud, both. So now second thing is what we call. comes. What is wisdom? If you can be with the panic, then what we call it, you will see two-face of panic. The real, two-color, isn't it? Is there any phrase in the West? True colors. Two colors of panic. Two colors of panic. Meaning panic become pieces now. What is panic? Sensation, actually. A lot of sensation around your stomach and chest and neck

and head. And there's image, frightened image. their unpleasant voices, you know. And behind the background, believe, this is the way, this the shoot, this the right, this is the wrong, this is the danger, there's some kind of, like, believe. And if you take out one piece, you cannot have panic. Or panic become less. So what I call panic become like shaving foam. Looks like piece of rock, shaving foam, you know, when you shave the beers. I have beers. but I don't use shaping form anyway. So the shaving form looks like a piece of rock,

but inside full of bubbles. So panic becomes like that. Then sometime, eventually, panic loses meaning. You cannot really find, define the panic. Wonderful. So that is what we call wisdom. Panic becomes pieces, and they are changing and changing, and these four interconnected, independent.

And number three, there is, self-kind, self-forgiveness. When you allow panic, when you allow depression, loss of steam, or when you're allowed to have those stress, that is real kind to yourself. You're not fighting it. And that is self-love, self-compassion. So normally, you know, there's a coffee called three-in-one, right? Coffee. Three-in-one coffee? Three-and-one coffee. So, three in one. So these, all this, because of panic, panic is helping you to discover awareness, love and compassion, and wisdom.

So eventually, panic become your teacher, panic become your friend. So this is a second step. In the end, what we call awareness, be with itself. Open awareness meditation or sometimes objectless meditation. So sky, be with itself. You don't need to rely on any substance. any object. So this is the third step. So the third step is an open awareness. Yes. Sometimes what we call objectless meditation, objectless awareness. Let me quickly

recapitulate. So the first step is awareness of sound? Yeah, sound or it depends on the people. Some people, your own breath is more connected. Some people, the mental recitation is more connected. This three is the first step. So, Three options for the first step, which I guess the overarching term we could use would be a simple meditation practice, which could include sound, breath, or a mantra. The second step is to make that simple meditation practice free range everywhere you go all the time and whatever's happening in your mind. The third step, what you're moving to now is open awareness.

What does that mean? That is very difficult to describe. Basically, for example, if you are working a lot, work, work, job. If you're doing physical exercise, you're joking in the park for half hours and finish your jogging, right? Then you rest somewhere in the bench with deep breathing. And you don't have to do anything. Just be, just drop.

So that is the example of how to practice open awareness. be with your mind as it is. So you don't need to meditate sometime what we call. Non-meditation is the best meditation. You just be with your own mind and there is clarity. That is awareness, meaning you are not unconscious. You can see, you can hear, everything's there, that sense of being, sense of present, but there's not any focus.

Thought come, go, don't care. Emotion come and go. But you're not lost. You're not become zombie. You're not doing anything just being completely natural. If people hear this and say, I don't quite understand it, would it be safe to respond by saying steps one and two will make step three possible for you eventually? That's true. This is why we have to have steps. Right. And so if I were to attempt clumsily perhaps to restate step three to you, it's something along the lines of a non-meditation meditation.

Yes. To learn non-meditation, first you have to learn meditation, right? So then eventually you'll let go of meditation. But you're not lost. The sense of being, sense of present. Sometimes what we call awareness, you can experience it, but you cannot put in the world. Some of that experience of awareness will come up in steps one and two.

Of course, it will come. And this awareness with us all the time, especially when we are young, Sometimes what we call child mind. When you rest your mind, be as it is clear, present. But problem when we were young is maybe we are not recognized. So the issue is whether you recognize or not, that is an issue. There's no issue that whether you have or not with you all the time.

Even you are experiencing panic, you have this awareness. If somebody is listening to this and thinking, I still don't get what awareness is or how do I know if I'm, with awareness, would it be correct to say for any nanosecond where you are instead of being completely owned by the stories and sensations of your anxiety, nervousness, panic at the extreme end, instead of just being completely owned by it and stuck in the story or the feeling, you have a, just a nanosecond of just noticing, oh, what exactly am I feeling and where in my body? That is awareness.

That is one of the first step. That is awareness, yes. Awareness doesn't need to be fancy or esoteric. It's something that is just available to you right now. Right now. And you have it. You have all the time, almost what I call 24 hours. Even in your sleep, you have awareness.

But the issue is we have to recognize. Sometimes I give example. Like if you have a watch, the best watch in the world, you are wearing it. So normally what is the quality of the watch? if I ask you, what is the main quality of the watch? It's time, right? So you have the best watch in the world, and you don't know that is watch.

You thought it's kind of like a bracelet, right? And then what happened? You lost time. And if you lost time, what happened? You may lose your job, right? What do you call? Time is money? Yes.

And then your boss will fire you because you are not on time. And you always ask other people, excuse me, what time is it? then eventually you may become homeless. And then one day, you met your best friend. Oh, hello. Nice to see you.

Okay. What time is it? You ask your friend, what time is it? And your best friend said, you have watched why you're asking me. And you thought, don't kidding me. I don't have watched. This is why I lost my job. And your friend said, no, no, no.

This is your watch. Introduce your own watch. Of course, at the beginning, you cannot believe that. This is not a watch. bracelet and your friend said, no, no, no, this watch. And your friend teach you how to look at your own watch. Slowly, slowly, you recognize your own watch. And you can read time. Now watch can tell you time. And you look for job, you get job, and you're on time. And your boss are very happy and promotion. And in the end, you have a very wonderful home. So if I ask you,

that's a true situation with one watch, right? First, you have watch, but you are not recognized. You become homeless. And later, you have wonderful life. Which watch is better? The second watch, for sure. I don't think that was a trick question. Using the watch is better than not using.

Yes, yes. The only difference is you recognize or not recognize. You have watch at first place, but you are not recognized your own watch. Then watch cannot tell your time. although you have the best watch in the world. But later you recognize it and watch can tell your time. So this is like awareness. We have this awareness, wonderful awareness,

like best watch in the world all the time. That is who you are, your fundamental quality, awareness, one with love and compassion and wisdom. But we need to discover it. We need to recognize whether you have or not, that's not the issue. Right. So we definitely have it, whether you're using it is the issue. Yes.

And again, I just want to be, really clear for folks because terms like awareness and consciousness and luminosity can sound like something that's only available to monks. But it's actually just you're in an elevator, you're feeling claustrophobic and instead of being stuck in the story about all the horrible things that are going to happen to you, you zero in on the feeling of encasement in your chest. And especially if you're a beginner, you're not going to be able to be in luminous awareness that pervades your whole being for, you know, a half hour at a time, but for a few seconds at a time, maybe even a few nanoseconds at a time,

when you can drop out of unbridled fear into the raw data of the physical sensations, that is awareness. That is connecting with awareness. Okay, what's the difference between awareness and connecting with awareness? You have awareness all the time. Why you're feeling this anxiety because of awareness. Without awareness, you cannot. you cannot feel awareness.

Stone cannot feel pain. Rock cannot feel pain. We feel pain. That is because of awareness. But we don't know how to connect with it. We are not recognized. So the moment you try to observe that pain, you're connecting with awareness.

The consciously or consciously or what we call purposely, unpurposely, you listen to sound. You connect with awareness. And you have to have what we call view meditation awareness. View meaning you have to know what is the awareness, what it does the function,

what is the benefit, how to practice, and this is my core being is awareness. You have to have that idea first, view, what we call view. And based on that idea,

and you listen to sound, then by listening to sound automatically become meditation, automatically connect with your core being eventually. And why this helps with whatever emotion you're dealing with,

you know, garden variety, nervousness, anxiety, panic, anger, whatever. One of the ways in which it helps is it just breaks it up. It's not so solid anymore. That's the one reason. Right. Yes, that's one.

Another reason is you're letting be. For me, the biggest problem for my panic is panic of panic. Fear of panic, aversion of panic. That keeps my panic ongoing. When I begin to let go of that, panic loses power. Cannot function so much. And deeper level, I have sense of, oh, yeah, now panic's coming. You're welcome.

So the sense of excitement when the panic comes. But symptoms still there for a while. For a few months, I have still symptoms. Everything tight my neck and tight all the symptoms there. But deeper level, I don't mind. Sometimes I love on my panic. So what we call aversion and craving. These two are what we call causes of suffering.

So aversion is, let's say, when we say, don't think about pizza, don't think about pizza, no pizza. What happened? We think about pizza. So that is the job of aversion. Whatever we do in our life, when special, what we call the monkey mind, crazy monkey mind. The monkey mind is the opposite. When you try to get rid of something, become worse.

Or craving meaning, peace, calm, joy, then they will run away. When you look for peace, peace will say, I'm busy. You have to make appointment first. Sometimes what I call when you drive a car, there's a brake and accelerator, right? Without that, you cannot drive a car. So this aversion and craving is what I call the core being of samsara,

core support for suffering, problems, what we call tuka. So once we let go, of that, what happened? Panic automatically liberate. That really helps the panic. So first, you will see true color of panic. Second, eventually you let go of aversion and craving. But the problem many people think, if I let go of craving and aversion, then how I can function. You know, my life become like zombie. I become so passive. Actually not. Letting go is not giving up. There's wisdom comes. There's love and compassion comes. There's awareness

comes. And these are much better than craving and aversion. They can help your life. They can help others. They can do a lot of function. They are very powerful, meaningful. Can I add on top of that? People do worry that meditation is going to defang their edge. If you get rid of aversion or craving, you won't be able to function. What I often say to them is you're not going to get rid of it forever. You're a human being. And so you're just learning how to turn the volume down. And when you do turn the volume down, great things can happen like a sense of calm and a sense of generosity and availability for other people. I believe in Tibetan, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, one of the translations for the word enlightenment is a clearing away and a bringing forth.

So you turn down the noise on your inner junk, the pizza. Yeah. And even you don't need to turn down in the end. You just connect it with your background luminosity. Right. So turning down is too much doing. Yeah. You don't have to do anything, actually. Yes, that's a good correction. You just discover your fundamental quality. Stop doing and it happens anyway. Yes. Stop doing? Just being. And when you know how to be, it will reveal, it will discover. So sometimes I give this example like, you know, I have this watch, right? So the craving and aversion is like my hand. Now I have hand, my hand going to hold this watch. My hand is facing down, right?

Now it's facing down, and I'm going to grab this watch. So this watch is your life. Maybe your job, maybe your work, your fame, your whatever. You have to grab it, right? How you have to grab? Aversion and craving. Otherwise, if you let go on this, you lost the watch. The watch fell down, right?

If I don't grab, what happened? Watch fell down now. So that's our normal way. And can I show you something magic? Please. The magic is when I let go my hand, but I will not lose the watch. So I will do that, okay? So first I will cover my hand by my rope.

You cannot see. And I will show you. He's putting his hand under the robe. Now the real magic comes. One, two, three. Okay. So I need to describe what's happening with your hand. So he was kind of clawing his watch, which he had taken off his wrist, and holding his

palm down dramatically clawing onto the watch, which was a metaphor for our clinging. And the correct way to actually think about it is to flip your hand over, palm facing skyward, the watch resting on your palm with no grasp required. Yeah. So that is that you're connecting with awareness, wisdom, love and compassion. You let go. But even not lost. But of course, the normal way when you palm,

pacing down, if you load go of aversion and craving, then you cannot function. Yeah, that's true. Coming up, Rinpoche talks about deconstructing your reality to make it workable, when to take a step back, or even stop meditating altogether, and what Rinpoche says is the true purpose of the practice after this. I notice in meditation that I'll have moments where I stopped trying so hard and the awareness is there. It's effortless. maybe on retreat where I've reminded myself over the course of days, that there's nothing to do, nowhere to go, everything's right here anyway. But then some striving part of me comes marching in and is like,

you know, hold on to this, et cetera, et cetera. And that can even happen to my daily meditation practice. Is what I'm describing completely normal? Of course, this is a normal when I was young. You know, I have a lot of those problems. And especially my problem is lazy. I learned meditation when I was nine. And then what I call it?

I love the idea of meditation, but I don't like the practice of meditation. So then I lost, and then I cannot meditate for a few weeks. Then suddenly, oh, I have to meditate. My panic's coming. And then I'm meditating, try to get rid of my panic. Hey, panic, you get out. I'm meditating. What happened?

Panic become worse. And then I asked my father, my father said, remind me again and again. Don't try to fight with the panic. you have to say welcome and then I'm trying to say welcome hello panic welcome it helps but actually why I'm saying welcome

is I want to get rid of panic right hello panic I'm saying welcome are you still there why you're not gone I already tell you I already welcome you a few times

become like dog chasing tail, you know. But even though it is a fake welcome, it helps. For me, it really helps the fake welcome. Right. One of the therapeutic cliches is fake it until you make it. And in this case, it seems like it worked. Yes. Then I ask my father. So I have this fake welcome. I'm become like same loop again. I'm fighting with my panic. I'm fighting with this terrible feeling. What should I do? And he said, okay, now don't look at the panic. Look at that feeling of fighting. look at that feeling of aversion. Panic or panic, don't watch panic.

Look at the behind the panic. And you can include everything, all this young thing. Use them as support for awareness. And they become support for your meditation. They have become support for awareness, compassion, and wisdom. So sometimes what I call inner recycle, you know. Say that again. So the inner recycling is being aware of, at some point,

you don't even have to be aware of the first arrival. which would be panic, you can be aware of the add-on, which is, I don't want this panic to be here, even though I'm pretending that I do. Yes, you can be with that one. You can watch that one. I don't want to panic. I don't want to panic. Ah, hello, I don't want to panic.

You can watch that one. Maybe I give you one example. So normally, I don't want panic. I don't want panic somewhere here behind your eyes, let's say. And you're walking with panic in front of you. This is like boil hot water. I'm going to be with that. It's very difficult.

But you forget. the behind the eyes, there's another one which is panic or panic, fear of panic. So then if this panic or panic makes you problem, then don't look at the panic in front of you. Turn the other side. Ah, there's noise here. Look at that one. And that noise becomes support for meditation again, just like sound. So eventually, you can include everything as support for awareness. And this, I think, is where we get.

Second step. Being aware of anything at any time anywhere. Yes. What I was going to say, which is maybe inappropriate, but please tell me if I'm wrong, is that it feels like we're stepping toward understanding a little bit here, the word you used earlier, which can be a little mystifying to people, which is wisdom. And please, I'm taking a leap here. But by wisdom, I think what you mean is seeing that everything is pieces and you can

deconstruct real reality. and then it becomes workable. Yes, that's the wisdom. So wisdom, we will see three aspects. First, we find the pieces. When you look at the panic, you cannot pinpoint panic at the beginning. I'm going to look at panic. Where?

You have to watch the sensation. You have to come down. Oh, yeah, there's an image there somewhere up there or I don't know. There's a nasty voice. And there's a whole this behind. There's a mindset, some kind of like you already make your own preconcept there. So concept here, sensation down here, word over there. Normally these all become one giant solid rock, but now pieces.

And you can move in between the pieces and in between there's a lot of space actually. And these pieces are changing, changing, changing, changing, sensation is changing, words changing. So that's what we call impermanence. So second, you will see the impermanence. Third, what we call interdependent. If there's no sensation, then you cannot have strong panic. If there's no image, actually, some kind of like, something, image, something there. Of course, some people have more sensation, some people have more vision, some people have more word, some people have more belief.

But these fall together. So when you take these apart, panic loses meaning. And this is why you can be happy you have anxiety, because one, any sense, suffering can be a motivation for practice. And once you practice, you see, you basically get the keys to the universe. You see that this solid movie of life, this seemingly solid movie of life, isn't actually that solid. It's impermanent and interdependent. And that is where you get some freedom. Yes. Correct. And that, we don't have to make it. That is the true color of the reality, actually. Normally what we are making is we are making single, solid, permanent, very, very

unpleasant thing. We are making our own enemy actually. We are putting ourselves into our own jail. And this jail who made it, we made it. So if you made your own jail, why not? You can free. And actually it is not really exist. When we really face it, be with reality as it is, then you will have discovery. The truth will reveal. I'm just having this thought that I've practiced meditation for, I don't know, 12, 13 years. I just have to hear this over and over and over again because it cuts against the grain of many aspects of human nature and modern life.

And you just need to be reminded of this over and over and over again. Yes, yes. And each time when we remember, aha, something is learning, something discovery. Although same word, for me, I've been practicing more than 30 years and every year. Aha. Yeah, I'm using this same word before. I'm teaching that.

I'm listening. But now it's different when I hear. It just gets deeper. Yeah, and deeper and more ordinary. Right. Well, and I think in some ways those are ultimately the same thing. Same thing, yes. Before I set you free from this interview,

I know there was something else you wanted to say about the second of the three steps for dealing with anxiety. Where did you want to go deeper on that? So the second step is sometimes quite tricky because now you are really directly working with the panic itself or depression or stress, loss of steam, whatever. They're in you. So this is quite tricky at the beginning.

So normally what we call there are four steps here. First is to be aware. Second is try something different. Third is step back. And the fourth is take a break. So you have to have this for because when you begin to be aware of panic at the beginning what happened,

become worse. Actually not become worse, but it feels like it's become worse. Why? What we call? When you look at the muddy river, you cannot see fish. When the river become more clear,

you will see fish. And you think, wow, so many fish are here where they come from. Actually, fish are there, but the river is muddy, you cannot see it. So normally,

when our mind begin to clear, calm, and we will discover more thought. For example, if you are busy whole day, you will not see thought. And after 5 p.m., you go your home, relax on your bed with the long breath. What happened? Pallap, pala, yada, yada. You will see a lot of image and then a lot of voice. Actually, at that time, your mind is resting.

Your mind is become more calm. So same thing with meditation at the beginning. what we call waterfall experience. It looks like it becomes worse at the beginning. So therefore, sometimes when we begin to watch panic at the beginning, we cannot watch, overwhelm. So we need second step what we call try something different, which is small emotion.

I told you, I cannot watch my panic at the beginning, so I watch my anger. Or could be anything. Or it could be listen to sound, go back to the first step, breath or mental recitation. So this is try something different. And sometimes even that doesn't work. work. Then step back. Step back meaning don't look at the panic. Look at the behind the panic.

The aversion of panic. Dislike the panic. Be with those. Step back. And sometimes that doesn't work because we are too tired to exhaust it. Take a break. That's my favorite practice. Take a break. You can drink coffee. You can do physical exercise or sleep. Don't practice meditation for a while. Stop meditation. It's quite good sometimes also. Take a break. is part of the practice. Sometimes what we call it, when you hike the mountain, you rest, right? Resting there, it doesn't mean you return back. So some people feel guilt that stop practice meditation.

No problem. You can stop for a while, it's okay. Yeah, these are four steps. Four steps within step number two, which is anytime, anywhere you can meditate. And I think the one that people will key in on there is give yourself a break sometimes. And I think it's useful for you to say it because a lot of people in the West in particular, or type A achievement-oriented folks, when you say you can meditate anytime, anywhere, on any object,

well, then they think, well, I need to be on my game 24-7. But actually sometimes it's good to, you know, watch Netflix for a few minutes. Anything else I should have asked you? I think probably like that. Or maybe basic innate goodness. Basic innate goodness. Yeah, that seems like a big topic, but please. So all this meditation practice,

The purpose is what we call to discover your innate goodness, basic innate goodness. So the beautiful quality of our own mind, the awareness, love and compassion, wisdom, three in one. And this is the background of thought, emotion, perception. Sometimes what I call like the projector has light, right, movie projector. And that light projecting on the screen, there's so many stories there. Sometimes beautiful stories, sometimes dangerous, sometimes nice, sometimes not nice. But all this story, all these different colors because of the light. Without light, you cannot have all these stories.

So the light is the awareness. Light is the basic goodness. Through that light, all this manifestation, what we call panic, depression, or compassion, wisdom, all these are the display of the light. manifestation of the light. So normally what we see is only story. We don't see light. So the purpose of this practice is to see the light,

light like awareness, and to discover this within yourself and then help others as much as you can. Point out to your friends that they're wearing watches. Yes. No matter what we've done in our lives, no matter how many mistakes we've made, our birthright is, it's right there.

Yeah, there's no mistake. on the awareness, of course. But the mistake is we follow with the loss and thought, emotion, perception, then problem. So wake up, everybody. Rump B'Shea, thank you very much for doing this. Just one last thing.

If people want to learn more from you, how can they do that? We have meditation organization called T-E-R-G-A-R. We have online classes, and we have this systematic practice. I make it kind of a curriculum for me, it's really benefit to practice step by step. Otherwise, I got some good idea, and then good idea dissolves and loss into my normal life.

So this step-by-step is really wonderful. We'll put a link to Tergar in the show notes. You've also written a few books. Can you just name those? The first book is Joy of Living, and the last book is In Love with the World. In Love with the World, yes. And Shay's been on the show a couple times, so we'll put links to his prior album. episodes where he discusses those books in the show notes. So if you want to check those out,

go for it. Thank you again. Thank you very much. Thanks again to Mingy Rimposhae. He is still teaching all over the world online and in person, including in New York State and New York City. In the first week of May of 2025, you can go to his website at targar.org. That's t-r-g-r-r-org to see all of his teaching dates. Before I go, I just want to thank everybody who works so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara and Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Gisili. A recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager.

Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.