Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How To Be Okay No Matter What | Kamala Masters

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

Equanimity: what it is, what it isn’t, and how to get it. Guest Kamala Masters was one of the teachers at Dan’s first ever meditation retreat. In this episode she dives into how to develop equanimity and shares her story of learning how to practice meditation during her everyday life while raising three children on her own. Kamala Masters has been meditating since the 1970s, first with Anagarika Munindra, who was Joseph Goldstein’s first teacher, and then with the Burmese master Sayadaw U Pandita with whom she twice temporarily ordained as a Buddhist nun. More recently, she’s been training with another Burmese master we’ve talked about here on the show, Sayadaw U Tejaniya. She is a Guiding Teacher at the Insight Meditation Society, and the co-founder of the Vipassana Metta Foundation, which developed the Maui Dharma Sanctuary.In this conversation we talk about: What is equanimity?The most common misconception about equanimityThe near and far enemies of equanimity The power and limitations of setting intentionsFull Shownotes: https://meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/kamala-masters-rerunWhere to find Kamala Masters online: Website: Vipassana Metta on MauiAdditional Resources:Download the Happier Meditation app today. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody, how we doing? We're going to go back to one of my favorite subjects today. This is a question that I have spent a lot of time mulling and that people ask me about all the time. Can you get happier, more balanced, more quantum-ous without losing your edge?

Will getting happier make you complacent or make you a doormat? I remember how when I first got interested in meditation as an ambitious network newsman, I told my dad about my burgeoning interest and he was a hard charging academic physician at the time. And he told me that he had some colleagues who had gotten into Buddhism and it made them and these were his words, like totally ineffective. You may have heard my spiel about how this is a misunderstanding, a misapplication of the lessons of meditation.

The goal is not to be resigned, but instead to be more focused and more emotionally agile to surf your emotions rather than drowning in them. In other words, to learn how to respond wisely to life instead of reacting blindly. In any event, I will spare you my rant on this because you're about to hear it from words to learn how to respond wisely to life instead of reacting blindly. In any event, I will spare you my rant on this because you're about to hear it from somebody with vastly more experience than I have. Full disclosure, when I first encountered Kamala Masters back in 2010 on my first ever meditation retreat, she was the victim of my unfortunate penchant for judgmentalism.

I initially dismissed her a little bit because her presentation, I thought, was sort of typically touchy-feely meditation, teachery, or whatever. But this was just me being dumb. The more I heard her speak, the more I realized both the depth of her practice and also the steeliness underneath. Kamala Masters has been meditating since the 1970s, first with Anagarika Munindra, who was Joseph Goldstein's first teacher, and then with the Burmese master Sayadaw U Pandita, with whom she twice temporarily ordained as a Buddhist nun.

More recently, she's been training with another Burmese master we've talked about here on the show a bunch. His name is Sayadaw U Tejaniya. Kamala is a guiding teacher at the Insight Meditation Society and the co-founder of the Vipassana Metta Foundation, which developed the Maui Dhamma sanctuary. In this conversation, we talk about what equanimity actually is and whether it's accessible to mere mortals, how we develop it, the most common misconceptions about equanimity, the

near and far enemies of equanimity, the power and limitations of setting intentions, what Kamala means by the phrase dharma duct tape, what she means when she talks about karma. We also talk about metta or loving kindness practice and its relationship to equanimity. And we talk about her story of being driven to the dharma because of the hell realm, and that's her phrase, of raising three children on her own in her twenties, and then learning to practice at home during everyday life while raising children. Couple of quick notes before we dive in here. First, you're gonna hear some background noise

from Kamala's home on Maui, including some birdsong, which I found pleasant. Second note is that we originally ran this episode in April of 2022. It was incredibly popular then, so we thought it might be worth sharing again while our team takes a little time off over the holidays. Heads up, we're planning a big January here on the podcast.

We're launching a series called Do Life Better. We've identified the top resolutions that people tend to make, fitness, meaning diet, exercise, and the like, personal finances, career success, and work-life balance, and reducing your addictions to things like booze and your phone. We will do a week on each of these subjects with our typical blend of modern science and ancient wisdom. And alongside the programming here on the pod, we'll be running a free meditation challenge over at danharris.com.

In many ways, meditation is the foundational habit. Mindfulness or self-awareness can fuel the whole process of behavior change. The challenge runs for seven days. It starts on Monday, January 6th. And every day, you'll get a guided meditation directly in your inbox from some of your favorite meditation teachers, including Sharon Salzberg, Seben A. Selassie, and Jeff Warren. And then I'll be doing some live check-ins in the evenings

where you can log in and ask me anything. The first of those will be free, but the remainder will be for paid subscribers. But again, the challenge itself is free. All you have to do is subscribe over at danharris.com. If you're already a subscriber, there's nothing more you need to do here. The emails will arrive automatically.

We'll get started with Kamala Masters right after this. But first, before we get started, I wanna let you know about what we're planning for the first few weeks of 2025. We've got a big series called Do Life Better. It kicks off in January to get your year off to the best start possible. On New Year's Day, we have a very special episode

with the Dharma teacher Vinny Ferraro. The last episode we did with him, which was actually the first time he was ever on the show, I got more comments for that episode than anything I've ever done on the show. So we thought bringing it back for the first day of the year would be a good move. And then we're gonna follow up

with a huge month long pod series where we combine world- follow up with a huge month long pod series where we combine world class scientists with Dharma teachers to help you actually do your resolutions. Meanwhile over on danharris.com, we're offering a ton of resources and support, including a free seven day New Year's challenge. I will do live check-ins where you can ask me anything. We also have subscriber chats about the most common resolutions like diet, fitness, and personal finance,

dry January, stress reduction, and breaking up with your phone, plus exclusive access to transcripts of our podcasts and much more. To join, all you have to do is subscribe at danharris.com. Just go to danharris.com, type in your email, click subscribe, and then I'll take care of everything else. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before

and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Maybe you're daydreaming about hitting the slopes or maybe you're just craving a change of scenery.

While you're away, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra money that you could put toward the trip. I'm a huge fan of Airbnb. My family and I have been talking about going to the Galapagos, but that is super expensive. So maybe putting our house up on Airbnb is a way to raise some money for that trip. I do love renting houses with my family and several other families and getting together.

It's so much more intimate than a hotel. So I'm a fan, for sure, on the customer side. Whether you could use some extra money to cover some bills or for something a little bit more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash post. Peloton has a variety of workouts for whatever era you're in. Holiday era, running era, wellness era, whatever era of life you're in. Peloton has the classes and motivation you need to get after it.

With Peloton's all access membership, you can work out where you need it. Whether you're at home, on your bike, tread, and row, or on the app at your kid's game, you can squeeze in what you need wherever you need it. Whether you need 10, 20, or 45 minutes of you time to sweat and get grounded, Peloton provides flexibility with daily on-demand and live classes that fit your busy schedule and your everyday life. I am a power user of Peloton. I have one of the bikes. I use it all the time. I do some of the short rides but if I have more time I like to get in a 45 minute ride. It really calms my nervous system and helps me sleep at

night. And when I'm on the road like in a hotel I'll often use the Peloton app on my phone to do a high intensity interval training class. I love those. So long way of saying I'm a huge fan of Peloton. Find your push, find your power with Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Kamala Masters, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.

Pleasure, I can hear the Hawaii wildlife behind you as we speak. Right. We're lucky to have that. Along with once in a while, you'll hear the helicopters with tourists, and we welcome them too. You were one of the teachers on the first meditation retreat I ever went on, which was a rocky ride for me. Oh, wow. I didn't know it was your first one. Right. Yeah, you've probably done a lot more since then and a lot of practicing, I bet. At least I've tried to. But anyway, it's nice to see you again and thank you very much for doing this. Really appreciate it.

Of course. So we're going to talk about equanimity and I thought I would ask you an almost embarrassingly basic question, which is, what is equanimity? All right. Well, I'm hearkening back to when I was walking in the room to get an interview with Seyeda Upandita, and he asked me the same question. So I'm going to answer that as if I'm there in that room again. And my

answer was that equanimity is a spacious mind that can include everything but not be reactive to anything. And when there is reactivity, it comes in two ways. When there is an experience arising and there is reactivity to it, whether it's an inner or outer experience, the reactivity would be in two categories. One would be there would be aversion to it or any manifestation of aversion, or there would be attachment to what's going on inwardly or outwardly, and many versions of attachment also. So equanimity would be a balance in response to what's happening to our inner or outer experience, and that balance would

be without reactivity, without attachment, or without aversion. So that's kind of a, in a way, it sounds so theoretical, but that's actually what one experiences. So for example, helicopters that come and go around our sanctuary here, I can see in my heart-mind something coming up in response to the sound, the outer sound. And it usually is aversion. It's a lot less now because used to being mindful of it. But there's room for that aversion in the mind.

Then what happens is that mindfulness comes to the foreground and is aware of that aversion. In a way, that aversion is allowed to come and go within this field of equanimity. come and go within this field of equanimity. So that's why equanimity really includes the understanding that it's spacious. There's a lot of room for things to arise and pass away with no reactivity to it. Or if there is reactivity, mindfulness can see it and it's not a problem.

It just comes and goes. Is that too theoretical? It's a great place to start. I'll ask hopefully not too obnoxious, very practical questions at some point, but I do want to say something about the Buddha. You pointed this out to our producer, DJ, before this interview when you were chatting with DJ,

you pointed out that the Buddha set the bar pretty high here. He said that a quantum is mind would be like the sky. You know, clouds can pass through, airplanes, anything can pass through and there's, Buddha set the bar pretty high here. He said that a quantum is mind would be like the sky. Clouds can pass through, airplanes, anything can pass through, and the sky's not freaking out about it. So that's a, as I said, that's a pretty high bar. That is a pretty high bar.

What's so high about it and beautiful about it is that it leaves room for wisdom and compassion to arise. that it leaves room for wisdom and compassion to arise. When the mind isn't dealing with the reactivity part, when it can see things like unwholesome states of mind arise and know that they'll pass away, it leaves room for wise response, or compassion would be a wise response. It leaves room for that to arise.

Actually, the Buddha did not give that exact quote, but someone described the Buddha's teaching on equanimity to be that way. Actually, the Buddha said, it's like the sky, but the rest of it, like anything can arise. And that part, I think it was a chanssumeto that made that precise description. Is this sky-like mind available to mortals, people who don't live in a meditation sanctuary and don't do decades and decades worth of silent retreat? Yes, I do see it with yogis that I know of from, you know, there are even people who

are even more just beginner yogis that when they have something like a natural sense of what we call sila or their morality or their sense of not harming is very high and natural. There are more times when the mind can just see things as they really are and not react with an unwholesome mind state, but I have to say that there could be a response to what's going on. So response is very different from reactivity. Response would include being able to discern what to say in the moment, what to do in the moment that would be effective, but not necessarily harming. So it's possible, of course, if you know your mind when you practice mindfulness, that's the key for us meditators to know our minds, to know when unwholesome states arise. And when they do arise, can we refrain from acting them out? That's a lifetime of practice,

it could be be and more. So would I, it would be fair to conclude then that if I'm interested in having more equanimity, which I think most everybody probably is, there are at least two ways to practice or to train this skill. which meditation can help with, and to have more what you called sila or just sort of not being a jerk in your life. And these are two tracks that can lead to the same quality of mind. That's right. Yeah, you're laying it out very well, because when we're mindful, then we can notice what's going on in the mind. And what the Buddha talked about a lot was a big part of our practice is to refrain from doing anything that's harmful to others and harmful to our own karmic stream too. And then also to nurture those qualities of mind that are causing harmony and goodwill in the world.

So there were many ways that the Buddha said that, to refrain from harming and to practice non-harming. Those two are the basis for sila, for beneficial action and words in the world and for our own karmic streams. So when we have mindfulness, like you pointed out, knowing more what's going on in our own minds and then knowing if it's going to be harmful to refrain, if it's going to be beneficial to nurture that. So sila is the next part. And then also to recognize when the mind can be equanimous. Some people, of course, a lot of people, I think, have a wrong understanding about equanimity.

It's as if we just kind of let ourselves be a doormat and just whatever happens, we're not going to respond. But that isn't true because with equanimity, there's more space for that discerning mind to come up like what would really be helpful. And maybe it would be helpful to just be quiet now. And maybe it would be helpful to take a stand on something and really speak with a loud voice about something, but not causing harm. So then we take action. So the third part of that equanimity is to take action also in ways that would be either wise and or compassionate. I think you got it in the beginning. Yeah.

I'm always looking for the gold star. You said a lot of things I want to follow up on, including at some point I want to get you to sort of define what you mean by karmic stream, but let me stay with this notion that doesn't make you a doormat and you're learning how to respond wisely instead of reacting blindly. And I'd like to kind of dwell in this zone for a little while because I think people will hear you talking about non-harming, being kind, being compassionate, and nonetheless worry that, well, does all of this add up to weakness or passivity?

Right. I get that. And that is what many people think. It doesn't mean that we're just quiet. It doesn't mean that we don't take any action. Sometimes the action is really strong and sometimes it can shock people, but maybe shock them into kind of letting go of their own harmful activity. But I'm trying to think about giving an example. One time I was teaching a retreat and one of the helpers in the retreat is a Buddhist nun and we were going to buy gifts for our staff of the retreat. So we went to the local shopping center here on Maui and we walked into the entrance, it's an open place, and as soon as we walked in, I saw to my left, which was maybe about a hundred steps away, a person approaching quickly another person and pummeling

that person, just beating that person on the head. And these were two young boys. And so I kind of knew them in the community. And so the one youngster was against the wall and started to kind of go down the wall. And the other one was hitting on that youngster. And it seemed like one of them was kind of out of it. The one going down the wall was a little bit out of it, and the one hitting him was also quite agitated, of course. There was no words. One was just pummeling the other. I looked at my nun friend, and everybody was just not doing anything. and everybody was just not doing anything. So I ran towards those two persons and I started yelling with all my might, get an officer, get somebody, get security, get over here.

And I yelled at the other person, pummelling, and I said, stop it, stop it, get away. And I was telling the other person with all my might, get away, but I didn't want to go near. And so the other person jumped off of pummeling him and I kind of ran for safety and that person ran away. So here I am just out of teaching a retreat in the shopping center. Something has to be done. People are walking by, not doing anything. And I'm the one that shouts with all my might

and then runs away for safety also. So I just wanna give a graphic example of how we need to be sometimes. And I had taken this course in model mugging. I don't know if you know of that. Have you heard of that model mugging? It's a course that was given here in the islands where all of the people who taught like any kind

of martial art was, or many of them were offering to youngsters in the community a way to know how to defend themselves. So I went to this model mugging course with my daughter. She was 14 at the time. So we both had to learn how to defend ourselves. And that was probably about two or three years before this incident that I just talked about. So I really learned how to shout at the top of my lungs, you know, to say, this is wrong,

not just don't hurt me, but don't hurt other people. So that really came in handy. So I'm a proponent of speaking loud, speaking up, standing up for one's rights, really saying what needs to be said. But maybe, you know, if we have time, we could think about it ahead of time and saying the right words at the right time, you know, all of those things that the Buddha taught, the five ways that we can do right speech.

And sometimes it takes a loud voice. So I'm all for that. You seem very calm, but when circumstances require it, you can be forceful. I really can be. I mean, you know, watch out for Kamala because, yeah, I can get really on it because I had to raise four children, and I had to speak my piece and do what I needed to do sometimes. But I really tried without hurting people, but sometimes I failed. And not with my hands, but with my words, not with my actions, but with my words. Sometimes I would hurt people, but then you know, then you have time for reflection and you know,

maybe when those circumstances happen again, you're more careful. So I'm like Menindra says, my first teacher said, my path is not yet finished. So I love that. It's useful to hear you say that you retain the capacity to make mistakes because I can imagine people might be listening to this and you're talking about not being carried away by your anger or whatever emotion that arises in your mind and immediately some of our minds might flash back on the last time we did get carried away, which might have been like 15 minutes ago. So, what kind of reassurance can you give us about the fact that we may be, that our paths are certainly not finished? Well, yeah, we're human.

We're just human and we're always learning. And I can see that in the beginning for me, when I just started the Buddha's path, I didn't know my mind as well. So because I didn't know my mind as well, I would just lash out at something. I wasn't that bad. I was a pretty good person, but still those things happen. But as I came to practice more and really knew what was harmful and followed the Buddha's teachings about if you can see what's going on and you know it's going to be harmful,

then see what you can do to refrain and then to nurture what's beneficial, of course. So knowing the mind more as I practice more, then I knew how to take those steps. But when I didn't know the mind as much, then I'd flub up a lot. And I'm still flubbing up, but it's not as bad. So that's a reassurance I can give you. It's not as bad.

But some people get really surprised, especially, you know, I'm a person of color, I'm a cisgender woman, and I can get stepped on sometimes, you know, so I don't back down when I know I'm not gonna get hurt. You know? What guidelines would you have for us if we're thinking about how to be forceful

without being harmful? Well, because I know sometimes anger still arises in my mind. When I am getting ready to have a talk with someone or even to be in a group of people, I try to prepare my own mind, I try to remember what my intentions are and state intentions before I go into a meeting. State them to myself, like, may I use words that are clear, beneficial, and useful? I mean, that's what I always say at the beginning of a Dharma talk, may I be clear, beneficial, and useful.

And so I do that when I know I'm going to go into a meeting. And so I do always have that intention because I've had to prepare for that so many times. And then when I'm in the meeting, I might say something to myself like when I'm hearing things and I feel reactive, which I do sometimes, of course. I'll state my intention to myself, stay stable, stay spacious, stay clear, something like that, just so I give myself short reminders. And sometimes I don't have the wherewithal to do that because I'm triggered. That's the truth of how it is, you know. So at least I try to say something like, I may not be right, but this is my perception right now about this. And I feel a bit hotheaded.

feel a bit hot-headed. So I apologize in advance if it comes out kind of too strong. So I really do try that to the best of my ability. So having some forethought about it and some intentions that we remind ourselves of can really, really help. And then if they all go kaflui, then I just forgive myself. I'm just human. I'm not perfect. I can't do it right. And I'm sorry if you're expecting me to be perfect because I am not. And I sometimes use four-letter words that just really fires people up sometimes. But I grew up in tough communities. I had to learn that. But I am naturally kind of soft-spoken, but don't let that fool you. Ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Coming up, Kamala explains the power and limitations of intentions, gives us a primer on karma, talks about the relationship between equanimity and metta or loving-kindness, and offers simple and practical equanimity phrases

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If you are looking for a gift this holiday season, consider a subscription to the Happier Meditation app. It is a way to help your loved ones build the mindful life they want with a personalized meditation practice designed to embrace what is real and messy and beautifully imperfect in themselves. Visit meditatethappier.com slash gift to share the gift of mindfulness this season. Just to go back to what you said about intentions, I'll admit that setting intentions,

I tend toward the judgmental, which is not one of my strong suits. And I often dismissed the idea of setting intentions as a kind of new age cliche, but I've been disabused of that dismissiveness on the score at the least and have found that just waking up first thing in the morning and saying like set the kind of same intention in my mind every day about like wanting to do good work that helps people that I lose sight of the intention all the time but it's useful as a pole star. And along those lines, I've sometimes thought I don't know if I have a big resistance to pain, but I've sometimes thought about getting, you know, some words tattooed on

my wrist, like, you know, don't be an asshole or just to remind me not to be a jerk. Right, right. Yeah. Intentions are powerful, though. The Buddha said karma is intention, and it's powerful. Intention is powerful. Imagine if we didn't have those intentions, the intention to know our own minds, what it does, the intention to be kind. It would just go willy-nilly all over the place. So intentions are really powerful. I remember once being in Burma, done some practice there, and met up with a beautiful nun who actually shaved my head on days where my head needed to be shaved. I had ordained as a nun. And when I went to say goodbye to her, she was a very advanced practitioner, and I felt so honored to be

in her presence. She was also a medical doctor who's a nun. I was giving her all my medicines and my umbrella and other things that I wasn't taking home with me. And I said, oh, I have this intention to give you these gifts, but they're so small. And she said, do not say that, Kamala. Do not say that's too small. Intention is powerful. Intention is powerful. And that went into me like, wow, like a beautiful gentle lightning bolt. How

important our intentions are in the world. And those things that we think that are small, the morning thing that you say or anybody says about, may I be helpful today? May I try to be as kind and calm as possible? Those things are very, very powerful because it goes into your mindstream and they're accessible, more and more accessible. The question came up in my mind as I was listening to you talk there. In diversity discussions, these days, there's often a

line drawn between intention and impact. Because often people who look like me, white people, especially men, are saying, well, I didn't mean for that to be harmful. And people will sometimes point out, well, maybe they won't say it doesn't matter what you meant, but it had an impact nonetheless. And so there is this big emphasis in Buddhism on intention being important, but I wonder where you come down on this debate between intention and impact. Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up and want to go back to the Buddhist teaching about

how intention is karma or karma is intention. And impact is a big part of karma. So we have to get nuanced here about this whole intention and impact thing. When we make the intention, we have to remember that's only half of the situation. And that is really important. That's only part of the situation. We do have this intention to be kind, do the best we can, but inadvertently, because we don't know a lot of things, even when we make those intentions, they land on people or on situations that causes something. So this is cause and effect relationship that we really need to understand. This is karma. We may have

the intention, but how it lands in the world or on another person is something we need to pay attention to and make that part of our lives to say, oh, there was this intention, that is true. And I just want to point that out when I'm speaking to somebody that that's my intention. But now, I'm also learning that it has this impact on you. And that impact on you is so important to me. So I want to pay attention to that impact on you. And I don't want to make my intention and excuse. I'm learning that I don't wanna make my intention an excuse. I'm learning that I don't always know

how it's gonna land on people. Now, I'm filling out all these words, Dan, but we can do that in a on the spot way too, you know, and just say, oh, I realize now that that landed in your heart in a way I didn't even think about. So what can we do about this? And to let that person know, which I have had to do in my own life, to let that person know that I'm sorry.

And recently I had to do this with somebody fairly close to me in the colleagues that I have in the Dharma, that I'm really sorry that it landed and it affected you this way. It wasn't my intention, but it landed on you this way, and I'm really sorry for that. And that's really sincere. So when you have to get really nuanced about all of this with this intention and impact thing, and really point out the importance of impact when we're speaking to somebody who was impacted by what we did or said. And I'm at fault at that. I do that wrong a number of times where I don't think ahead sometimes. What

would the impact be on that person? Because maybe I'm just so in the moment or something just happened and I don't have time to think about it or I don't have time to put what I call the Dharma duct tape on my mouth and just not say anything. It's going so fast. So we're going to make a lot of mistakes and mistakes meaning hurt people and not have it intended. So yeah, the big question nowadays for me is how can I bring just as much importance to understanding the impact as the importance we have given to understanding intention and motivation. It's a new world. Yes, in many ways. So maybe the bottom line of what you're saying is that it's not an either or,

both matter, intention and impact. Absolutely. Yeah. Let me go back to karma because I think long-time listeners of the show or anybody who's spent any time in Buddhist circles will completely understand what you're talking about there. But I just do want to represent the newer listeners to the show because hopefully we're adding new listeners all the time. And they may say, well, what's this karmic stream stuff? What is this? Are we like far out into the metaphysical soup here or what exactly do you mean when you use terms

like karmic stream? I am by the way, feigning skepticism. I am completely personally comfortable with the term but I do want to represent those who might not be. Oh yeah, of course. Well, sometimes we think of karma as the cause and effect relationship and like what the cause might be that we said something or did something and how it affects

somebody out there. It does affect outwardly, you know, our words and that affects people. But the person or the mind, mind-heart that holds that energy is inward. The effect of that is also inward. When there are intentions that are fulfilled, intentions, words, and actions that are said or done, there is a result of that in our own hearts and minds, not just out there. But the result of that is called resultant karma. There's a word for it, karma vipaka, that happens within our own hearts and minds that we carry. And that carrying is our own karmic stream so that the actions and words and even thoughts

that were harmful, there will be a result of that within us. And the result of that is feeling pleasant, unpleasant, or sometimes neutral. So the result of that is how we feel inside. We feel the result of that. The result of that might be felt outward too, but the karmic stream I'm talking about is what we feel inside when, say, we've harmed somebody. So let me give an example. If I shout to, like, my grandchildren, and of course maybe I'm with the intention of not harming, of making sure that they don't get harmed. And that's my intention, like, don't touch that, it's hot. That is not unwholesome karma, that is wholesome karma. And when I

see that my grandchild is shocked or maybe even hurt that I raised my voice, it's not like that's going into my mindstream as a resultant of unwholesome karmic action. That would not be unwholesome. But if I was harming a child, like punishing a child and hitting the child and whatnot, and then somehow that registers in my own heart and mind. Maybe sometimes a person isn't even aware that it's registering. Of course, a lot of times we aren't aware that it's registering. But that goes into our own heart and mind as part of the process of this human being evolving in this world. So that becomes part of our own mind stream and it comes out in pleasant and unpleasant

ways. I'm making it very simple. Not that I'm thinking I'm working with the simplistic minds here, but it would take a long time to talk about karma. Karma 101 is very welcome here, so making it simple is totally fine. Let me go back to, we were talking earlier about things you can do to shave down the odds that you're going to not act out of equanimity in stressful situations. We talked about intentions.

One other possible technique I wanted to run by you that I've played with a little bit on my end is meta practice or loving kindness practice where you might bring to mind somebody difficult and as frustrating as it may be, send them some good vibes in your meditation practice as a way to hopefully impact how you deal with them in real life. Does that land for you?

Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one to continue on because I can't imagine that a good number of the listeners have done some meta practice, so it can be really useful. The way I would recommend it though is to say we have a situation and we know that this person is difficult for us. I try to reward that. It's not that this is a difficult person. It's that we're having difficulty with that person. So it would be better to start as we do with the meta practice, start out with somebody that's easy first, to go there first. And especially if we've been hurt

in some kind of interaction with that person, to go to ourselves first and send metta to ourselves. Because oftentimes I find with myself and with other students that are doing metta practice that going right to that person is like just kind of saying the words and not really feeling them. So starting out where we can practice some meta for ourselves and bring up somebody that we're easy with to do that, then do that. And sometimes if you just need to do it right away to picture that person and have people around that person that you care for.

So do that in a group. So you are including that person. But this is what Manindra taught me, to surround that person in a group. And that is actually very doable for me. Surround them with some human shields that... for me. Surround them with some human shields that, that, that well, sometimes I even make the recommendation, surround them with your own benefactors or put your benefactors behind you. They're different kinds of tricks that we use. I would love to hear you say more about how we can develop equanimity generally as a quality of mind. Are there specific meditation techniques that you think really work to build our capacity for equanimity?

There are, you know, equanimity is one of the four brahma-viharas, one of the defined abodes or those practices, say meta, meta is one, then compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity is the fourth one. And there are equanimity practices, but I just want to go to kind of like a daily level way that you can practice it. Say we're in a situation, you're one-to-one with somebody or you're in a small group, and oneself is feeling reactive, and we feel it in ourselves. So what we might do is offer equanimity to ourselves first, because we know we need to do something

about the situation and mostly, we need to start right here. So one of the things that I do and still do is I remember equanimity. And in the beginning days, I would have to use an actual phrase that says, may I open to things as they are, or may I open to this situation with balance.

I'll just use the word balance instead of equanimity. Equanimity is too packed with misunderstanding sometimes. So may I open to this situation with balance so that I can see all sides basically, and I'm using open and balance in that. So, I would normally send it first to myself. It's an option when you say, may I open to this situation with more balance? And then you might even say something, say you're in this situation, you might even say something to yourself like,

may I know what to say or when to be quiet? I mean, all of those things occur to me without words, but you might need to put words to it because what you're really trying to handle is your own mind here, not necessarily the other person. So that's what you can do in the moment. It doesn't really help most of the time to try to send Metta to that person in the moment. If it helps, great. Go for it if it helps to start sending Metta to that person because your own mind is developing Metta

and you're doing the best you can to offer it. So of course if that person because your own mind is developing Metta and you're doing the best you can to offer it. So of course if that person's right in front of you and you think I'm just going to send Metta to this person, at least offering Metta will take the place of whatever judgments are coming up or whatever comes up. So Metta helps in that case. But actually, the first course of action could be making your mind kind of more open and balanced, so that you can just take a breather in there and you don't have to do anything. Actually, it was really helpful for me

to take a course in equanimity from a Tibetan teacher. And in that particular course, you needed to practice equanimity first before practicing metta, before going on to the others. So I can see experientially how that can be so. After the break, Kamala provides formal meditation instructions for equanimity practice and tells a personal story about a really challenging time in her own life during which she was so busy that she couldn't even sit

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Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. If I heard you correctly, what you were describing there is a sort of a daily, I think you put it in the context of a kind of a daily thing that you can do. Would you be willing to describe in a little bit more detail, if we wanted to do equanimity practice formally, how would we do that? What does that look like?

What are the instructions? Well, usually it would start out in our tradition, it would start out with doing meta first, but you could go directly to equanimity. So one step to take is to, I'm going to put a little spot for Sharon. Sharon teaches equanimity beautifully, Sharon Salzberg, and I have equanimity online at Dharma Seed also. The way I teach it is I would teach Metta first to develop a heart of Metta for yourself and then go to the individual beings as we go through oneself, benefactor, dear friend, neutral person, and then difficult person, and then all beings. All beings is really

helpful for a lot of people. So that then when we go from metta, usually when I teach equanimity, I do the first days of metta, and then we go on to equanimity, where we are developing equanimity I do the first days of Metta and then we go on to equanimity where we are developing equanimity with Metta already in our hearts. So we're not going to do the Metta practice now we're going to do the equanimity practice and actually equanimity you know it has these individuals that we go through. Equanimity starts with a neutral person, because with that neutral person we can more easily develop equanimity towards that person. So the phrases are different.

The equanimity phrases are, they're more like statements, they're not offerings. They're more like statements of understanding. So in equanimity practice, we're understanding how to be equanimous within us so that we can understand with equanimity that person we are relating to. So one understanding would be, pleasure and pain arise and pass away. This is how it is. And there are other things like gain and sorrow arise and pass away. This is how it is in life." So in that way, these are phrases that have to do with wisdom where we're coming to understand their deep meaning. So we start off using particular phrases and maybe we use a phrase like, may you have balance in your life. And then maybe we go on to a benefactor and we use a phrase like,

birth and death are part of life. These are phrases that are very wisdom-oriented. They're not like sending equanimity to that person. They're very oriented towards understanding that this is the way it is right now. So say now next you go to a person that's close to you, and then you remember something about that person that they're going through that could be very difficult. And then you remember that situation, that person, and then you will say a phrase like, this is how it is in your life right now. This is how your life is unfolding. May I open to how it is in your life right now. And so you're always in your phrases developing that kind of wisdom that's going to align with how it really is in life. And this is what brings equanimity, that we're not reacting to it, that we're aligning in ever

deepening ways to the unfolding of life. Yeah, I think that's what you mean when you say these are wisdom phrases because they direct us to the truth, however uncomfortable, hopefully in a way that allows us to relax into it. In terms of the instructions, I just want to repeat them back to you just to make sure I've got it. From what I heard, you would advise, you know, if we've got the time to start with some metta or loving kindness practice so we might sit in a reasonably quiet place, close our eyes, bring to mind an easy person, envision this person or your dog or cat.

Send them the classical phrases, which are often, you know, maybe happy, maybe safe, healthy, live with ease. Move on to yourself, a mentor or benefactor, a neutral person, a difficult person or a person with whom you're having difficulty, and then all beings. So once the mind is tenderized with a little bit of love and warmth, then you could move to this equanimity practice that you described, which would be, again, to call specific people to mind, maybe an easy person yourself, and then go from there, and to say phrases that direct your mind and perhaps maybe as somewhat of an offering the mind of the person who's your meta target or your equanimity target in the moment of gain and loss are inevitable. Birth and death are inevitable to put us into in this mind state of this is the way things are. Right. You were really good at mentioning

all of that, Dan. Yeah. So you reviewed it well. And you might even use the last phrase, which is sometimes hard for people to get. The last phrase has to do with karma, the actual traditional phrase, which is, all beings are owners of their karma. Their happiness or unhappiness depends upon their actions and not upon my wishes. All beings are owners of their karma. Their happiness or unhappiness depends upon their actions and not upon my wishes." So I have shortened that phrase when I'm working in equanimity practice with my own children, for example, to say all beings have their own journey. That's it. Because inwardly, I do understand

that now my children are grown and seeing them go through a lot. And I could never really control their journey as much as I tried, you know. And to say you have your own journey and also include in that is a meta. I could say that you have your own journey and all beings have their own journey. Included in that is a deep understanding in my heart that I'll help you as much as I can and I know that the unfolding of your life is really beyond my control. So that's karma too, understanding of karma. So got woven together.

How does that work? Are you able to achieve some sort of equanimity when it comes to your own children? More. I have not been always equanimous with my children. That's true. I just have blown my top sometimes, but I never really harm them physically, of course. And I know that's hard, you know, that it's really hard. It's really frustrating.

I raised three children on my own when I was in my twenties. It was a hell realm. It's what sent me to the Dharma. So I really understand that it's not easy and we're going to blow our top and we're going to say things that we regret and hopefully, you know, we can overcome it and ask for forgiveness. But we're just human. That could be an equanimity phrase. Remember that we're all just human. That could be an equanimity phrase. Remember that we're all just human.

It sounds to me also like a self-compassion phrase. Absolutely, yeah. When it comes to these four Brahma Viharas or divine abodes, I'll admit that as a died in the wool skeptic when I first heard that term divine abodes, I was a little like, this sounds a little grandiose, but now I'm a dedicated practitioner of the Metta, loving-kindness, in particular, Karuna or compassion, equanimity, Hupeka, and what's the fourth? Mudita, sympathetic joy. I do my best to, I don't want to overstate my level of facility with these qualities, but I certainly try.

But just to say, at the beginning, I was a little skeptical. And one thing that's interesting in the Buddhist tradition is that these qualities each have what are called a near enemy and a far enemy, meaning that there's the opposite of equanimity. And then there's also this near enemy, which is something that masquerades as the real deal, but is a pitfall. Can you talk about the near and far enemies of equanimity? Yeah. Short thing on the far enemies, which are called far enemies because you can see them from afar.

And they're predominant. And they are attachment and aversion. Those things are easy to see when we're just kind of having judgments. And we know when we're attached to our point of view or we really hate the other person's point of view and other things too. So that is the far enemy. It comes in two pieces and the near enemy has a lot to do with delusion. The far enemy with attachment to aversion, the near with delusion, because the near enemy is passivity,

where you just feel really passive. You don't care. You don't even know it, but it's like you're not connected. You're really not connected with what's really happening. And so you kind of have a shield on you and there's passivity, or you say, yeah, I'm cool with this, but you're not really cool with it, kind of hiding behind all the layers of delusion that all of us have. And that passivity is like doing nothing. You feel just really passive about it. Some people say they feel numb about things that are happening with others or in the world, and I can understand there's so much. So there's a numbness, there's a kind of disconnection. People say that too when they can't feel what's really going on. So that's when you get to be a

doormat and people just can step all over you without you don't say anything about it. But equanimity is not passive. It's active. It can be responsive, but it knows when. Has wisdom. Said that equanimity is very closely related to wisdom, to knowing, basically knowing what's beneficial. What leads to the end of suffering. Another thing about equanimity, as I've been taught, is that it allows you to come close to other people's suffering. Another thing about equanimity as I've been taught is that it allows you to come close to other people's suffering, to keep your cool so that you can be useful when people

need you. Because if your mind is balanced, you're not freaking out in the face of somebody else freaking out, then that could serve you and other people really well. That's right. That's right. That's why I believe it was taught first, you know, in that Tibetan practice. We can always bring it along, you know, when even we can make it be part of Metta, too.

Say, for example, somebody's difficult in our own hearts and we're doing our best to sending Metta to that person. I offer you my goodwill and things are just as they are. Just adding that equanimity phrase to it just says, doing the best I can and things are just as they are. Just adding that equanimity phrase to it just says, doing the best I can and things are just as they are right now. It's important to add that right now to that phrase because it changes all the time. So I've noticed. Yes. Yeah.

I do want to pick up on a phrase you used earlier. You said something about in the face of difficult circumstances or people, the job is to handle your own mind. And I just think that's worth amplifying because that's a massively empowering and I think even liberating thing to teach people, which is that you can't take responsibility for everything that happens with somebody else, but you can take responsibility for your own mind. Absolutely. Yeah. And when, if you really put our thoughts around it, it's like the impact that we can make with our energy, first of all, needs to be with ourselves to look what's going on in our own minds, because that's what really can change. We really have the possibility of making change in the world, of course, but mostly the potential

for change happens in here, in our own hearts. As doing those simple things, I've repeated several times, to know what's beneficial and to nurture that, to know what's beneficial and to nurture that, to know what's not beneficial and to refrain from that. And so when we can even know that much, we can act with a lot of power in the world. When going back to Manindra, he would say, I heard him say several times in different instances about how when there is a purity of the mind, even in the moment, when there is no hatred, no greed, no delusion or a lessening of that, the mind is very

powerful. What it says, what it does can have a great impact around us. Just the transmission of having a person like that in our presence, even that having a person like that is very powerful. So we can have a greater impact if we pay attention to what's going on inside. Before I let you go, I wanna, you talked about raising three children on your own and that bring you to the Dharma.

I suspect there are some people listening who are like, whoa, tell me more about that. How did you become such a deeply respected and experienced teacher in this very demanding discipline while raising three children? How did you get your practice time in at home? I practiced at home a lot because I couldn't go to retreats, but sometimes I could. I told you my first teacher was Manindraji.

A lot of you in the audience may have heard this story, if you've listened to talks before. It's about how I learned how to practice at home, which was so important because practicing at home in my daily life, walking through the hallways, opening doors, washing dishes, helped me when I went to my first retreat be able to have continuity in my practice. So it was the continuity that really helped me. When I first came to the dharma, I brought Manindra to Maui to teach a retreat, and so he did. And he came home with us and the three children. Or did I have

four at the time? No, I had three. So anyway, he said, do you sit every day? I said, no, I can't sit every day. And he said, well, what do you do? And I just right away, I said, mostly what I do is wash dishes. So he said, okay, let's go to the sink. So he stood right beside me as if we were under the Bodhi tree and he taught me how to wash the dishes. Like just when feeling the warm water, just no feeling, feeling or warmth, warmth or what are you thinking now? He would ask me, I'm worrying, worrying, worrying. Okay, no worrying. We did all that. And then he said, okay, no worrying. We did all that. And then he said, do you do walking meditation? And I said, no. He said, well, where do you walk? And I said, usually from the dining room to the bedroom and back, forth. He said, let's go there. And we went there and he taught me how to do walking meditation

every time I stepped in that hallway. So that's how I learned. And that's what I did for a long, long time. I took his advice and I did it. And then when I would go to sit, as soon as they gave the instructions, the mind would just take it in and I would just say, oh, okay, I'll do that. So I would just go to the breath, just be there. When it goes to something else, notice that, okay,

come back to the breath, okay. I was so desperate, I wouldn't do anything. When I went to my first long retreat, it was a very, I could see, yeah, I can practice. I can really practice sitting down and being quiet. And yeah, it was really helpful to do that practice at home, everyday practice. I think that story is going to be potentially extremely helpful and empowering for anybody with little kids at home or anybody who feels that their life is too busy to do any sustained level of practice.

We could just do it walking wherever we have to walk already and while doing whatever chores we have to do already. So it's really helpful. I'm glad. Two final questions for you. One is, is there something I should have asked, but didn't? I mean, I really wanted to be helpful to everybody. And I think I tried to be as down to earth,

helpful as possible. Well, now it's my turn to give a gold star because you absolutely were. And that leads me to my final, final question, which is, I assume people having listened may want to learn more from you. So do you have a website or any resources you've put out into the world that you would like to direct people to?

Yes, they can go to Dhamma Awareness, or they can go to the website, the Pasana Metta on Maui. I and my partner, Steve Armstrong, do every Wednesday, a sitting with people every Wednesday. And it's helpful. And then my retreats that I'm doing are on that website. We'll put a link in the show notes for people listening. Okay, good. Kamala, thank you so much.

Really appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate the work you're doing. Gold star for you too. Thanks again to Kamala. Love hanging out with her. Thanks as well to everybody who worked so hard on this show.

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