Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How To Break Your Anger Habit Sharon Salzberg

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

The case for love and compassion in a world that's filled with hatred and division. Sharon Salzberg is a meditation pioneer, world-renowned teacher, and New York Times bestselling author. She is among the first to bring mindfulness & lovingkindness meditation to mainstream American culture fifty years ago. She has written many books, including her latest, a kids book called Kind Karl.    In this episode we talk about: How the quality of metta, or loving kindness, can be an antidote to fear The wisdom of having a loving mindset in the face present dangers Love Can love be a strength?  The different flavors of "loving kindness" The four types of enemies, which include the outer enemy, the inner enemy, the secret enemy and the super secret enemy Join Dan's online community here Follow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTok Subscribe to our YouTube Channel   Additional Resources:  Dan's son teaching Loving Kindness Meditation Metta Hour Podcast Donate to the Insight Meditation Society's Fundraiser  Sharon's books   Thanks to our sponsors:  AT&T:   Happy Holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. Northwest Registered Agent: Visit northwestregistered agent.com/paidhappier and start building something amazing.  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, everybody, how we doing? When you are exhorted to love your enemies, which is a common Buddhist refrain, you may hear it as an appeasement. Images of Neville Chamberlain might come to mind. You might be tempted to think that loving your enemies means hurling yourself at their feet or co-signing on their terrible ideas. But actually, it's nothing like that at all. Loving your enemies turns out to be the. the wisest and most strategic possible countermeasure.

Not only psychologically in that it can help reduce your anger and anxiety, but also, as I said, strategically, in that it can help you make better decisions. As you might imagine, this is a conversation I have to have all the time since I'm often out in the public square, making the case for love and compassion in a world that is filled with hatred and division. When I make this case, just to be super clear about this,

I am absolutely not arguing that you should go soft or be a doormat. I'm arguing that you can take really firm and even stern action, but, and this is the key, that action does not have to be motivated by hatred or anger. Sure, some amount of anger can be clarifying or energizing. It gets you off the couch, but it can very quickly curdle into a kind of constricted state. There's a reason they call it blind rage. By contrast, there's some scientific evidence that a state of warmth or loving kindness, actually increases your peripheral vision.

So that's what I want for you in these difficult times. To be able to stand up for what you believe in, but to do it from a place where you're drawing on the cleanest burning fuel, which is love, as cliched as that may sound. Which brings me to my guest today, who's one of the most effective proponents of this argument in the world. In fact, I learned everything I just said from her. Sharon Salzberg is a meditation pioneer,

a world-renowned teacher, and a New York Times best-selling author. she's among the first Westerners to go to Asia and learn about mindfulness and loving kindness and Buddhism and to bring it back to America and inject it into the cultural mainstream. She's written many books, including her latest book, which is a kid's book called Kind Carl. Today, though, we're going to really focus on one of her older books, which seems especially relevant right now. And that book, which she co-authored with the renowned Buddhist scholar, Robert Thurman, is called Love Your Enemies.

In this conversation, we talk about how the quality of meta or loving kindness can be an antidote to fear, the wisdom of having a loving mindset in the face of present dangers. We talk about what love actually is, whether it can be a strength, different flavors of what the Buddhists call loving kindness. And then we dive into a discussion of the four types of enemies, which include the outer enemy, the inner enemy, the secret enemy, the secret enemy. I found that super secret part actually to be the most helpful. I'm not going to give it away now, just listen and you'll hear what I mean. Before we dive in, I just want to say something important. At least it's important to me. Sharon is one of the co-founders of the legendary Insight Meditation Society,

which is a Buddhist retreat center in Barry, Massachusetts, which will soon be celebrating its 50th anniversary. IMS is, as I said, very important to me. It's the place where I've done many, many retreats and deepened my practice. Actually, just got back from there yesterday. I was spending a few days with Joseph and Sharon, Joseph Goldstein, who shares a house with Sharon. Having said all that, the institution is now facing a real challenge. The demand for retreats has become incredibly high, which is really good.

I'm glad more people are going on retreat, but it makes it harder to get into a retreat. If you've ever tried to get into a retreat at IMS, you know it's nearly impossible, which is why they are now launching a fundraising campaign to build a third center on their current site, which will allow them to offer more retreats for more people. My family and I are supporting this effort with our own money. I would love to have you join us. If you want to do that, go to the link in the show notes. Two other quick things to say before we jump in here.

For subscribers over at Dan Harris.com, there is a loving kindness meditation that comes with today's episode. It's from our teacher of the month, Jeff Warren, which means that it's a wacky take on loving kindness, but also very wise. Also, subscribers get to come to our weekly live meditation and Q&A sessions every Tuesday at 4. The next one is coming up on December 16th. It's going to look a little different. We're going to be joined by some special guests with details on an exciting new project that we're

launching in the 10% happier world. I'm very excited for you to hear about this. We'll get started with Sharon Salzberg right after this. Starting a business is super hard. I know this because I've done it. Super hard, but super rewarding. There are, however, a lot of kind of annoying little things that you need help with, which brings me to our sponsor today. Northwest Registered Agent helps you build your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. What you ask is your business identity. It's everything that shows what your business is about. It's all the stuff from what your customers see to what they don't see, like legal paperwork, website security, state licenses, all that stuff. They've been helping entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses.

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Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registered Agent.com slash P-A-I-D-H-A-A-P-P-P-P-P-E-P-E. I-E-R. Sharon Salzberg, welcome back to the show. Thank you. It's great to see you. Always great to see you. All right, let me start with the question that I'm sure you're getting this question all the time. I'm hearing it from subscribers and from people at live events.

Is it possible or even wise or safe to love your enemies? Well, you know, I co-wrote a book called Love Your Enemies with. Bob Thurman. And the original subtitle was Love Your Enemies. It Will Drive Them Crazy. And I love that because I thought that was the right spirit rather than something preachy and you've got to like pretend you're not angry or whatever. But somehow in the publication process, that subtitle disappeared. So we're left with what it is. Yes, I think it is possible. Yes, I think it's wise. It's not what we necessarily think of as love, you know, because we can have a convention. understanding of appeasement and giving in and being submissive and always smiling or something

like that, as I think you are really deep in the process yourself of exploring what does love actually mean and kind of be a strength. I also personally often come back to the saying, which is that the Buddha first taught loving kindness meditation is the antidote of fear. So that puts it in a certain light, you know, when you're thinking about, people or a relationship or something like that. How exactly is love or loving kindness an antidote to fear? I think energetically we can see that when we're afraid. We're kind of shrink back in.

It's a very contracted state. We're withdrawn. And actually in the Buddhist psychology, anger and fear are the same mind state. They're just two different forms. Anger being in the expressive, energized, outgoing form, fear being the frozen implode held in kind of form of striking out against what's happening, wanting to declare it to be untrue. So what if we can not say this is great? You know, I'm really happy this is happening, but this is the truth of the present moment.

And then recognize we have alternatives of how to deal with it. We may want to step back from a situation because it's not safe. We may want to be fierce. We may want to be gentle. You know, there's a lot of discernment in terms of the actual action. but our heart space doesn't have to be so embittered. And we see that. We can pay attention to our bodies, to our minds.

What's the effect of being filled with huge fear or huge anger? Sometimes I say, for example, to people, why not bring it up? Like bring it up right now. This time you were hugely angry at yourself and feel it. What's it like? What's happening in your body and your mind? And also when we're lost in those states, there's a huge amount of information that's also lost.

It's like in that moment of being usually angry at yourself, you don't think, well, you know, I did five great things the same morning. I said, that stupid thing? It's like those five great things, they're gone. When we're overcome with fear, not a mean just being afraid, but being overcome by fear, any possibility of change, of malleability, of a bright light somewhere in the situation or an action we might effectively take. It's gone. We're just lost in that maelstrom. And so the more we can establish loving kindness as an alternative to fear or anger in this case, the more we can see that it's like an energetic opposite and it gives us options we would not have had.

Something I sometimes hear myself saying to people who approach me skeptically about the wisdom of having a loving mindset in the face of what appear to be. clear and present dangers to our democracy, et cetera, et cetera, to our climate, et cetera, et cetera, something I often say is you can do all the same stuff. You can take all the same actions, as long as you're not planning to, like, commit a terrorist act. You can hit the streets. You can write the strident tweets. You can do whatever you were planning to do without the rage. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that's one of the constraints we feel about the idea of loving kindness, which is that it's going to leave us really meek and sweet and malleable. And people often ask me, you know, a huge amount of time, isn't that the same as appeasement,

something like that? And it's really not. I think there's no mandate for how we're going to act. It's more like an interstate of freedom out of which we can choose the act that we feel is most appropriate and almost skillful. You know, when I used to teach, the emphasis often was on those times when we more projected an enemy when there was not one. The image, of course, they use an idea all the time is that you see a piece of rope curled up on the grounds and you mistake it for a snake. I sometimes tell the story about this time I was teaching loving kindness in a non-residential weekend in New York City and someone left on Saturday night, came back on Sunday morning. And she said, Sunday morning, she was on the train platform. I don't think it was a subway.

I think it was a train. And some guy approached her and she thought, oh, no, he looks really weird. And he started asking her about the train schedule or something like that. And she was so nervous. She kind of randomly pointed to some woman and said, I don't know anything about the train schedule. Go ask her. And the guy said, I can't ask her. She looks really weird. And I thought, how are we walking around in life? And that can also be true. Of course, these days, there's so much more emphasis on what if you see a snake on the ground and you think it's just a piece of rope curled up.

There are people perhaps actively trying to cause harm to you or people you care about or people you identify with. And the question really becomes is hating them and feeling like kind of othering them actually going to serve your action? Is it going to serve you and sort of the wholeness of your being? Or is there a way to take strong action and protect yourself, protect others, maybe try to do whatever you can do to change a system in some way that is not going to be so kind of randomly destructive or, you know, so much like about striking out, which may be a lot less effective, actually.

There's so much in what you just said that one thing that's coming to mind and you addressed it, but I just want to hang a lantern on it is there was a book I think called The Gift of Fear. There is something very adaptive and healthy about a certain amount of fear. But it gets really tricky really quickly because too much fear just is paralytic and reduces your decision-making powers and your clarity. And also, you know, fear while it can be protective is shot through often with biases. We're afraid of people just because of the way they're presented in the media as opposed to, I mean, you know, you can see this with different racial and ethnic groups. And so this is tricky terrain. It's very tricky terrain. And you could call it wise fear, I guess, which is like alertness and recognition that that I think is actually a snake. It's not really just a piece of rope on the ground. I think you've heard me tell the story, but that actually happened to me once in Burma walking. about to walk down a set of stairs at dusk.

And there was like a little green thread on the stairs and all these Burmese women were like shooing me away and making me clamber down this embankment, which I did. Then I look back and then I realized, oh, that was a snake, which I thought was just a piece of rope. So we need alertness and awareness. And there are things that are of grave concern, you know, and we feel anxiety, we feel fear.

But that is different than what I think is. a free-floating fear that is more chronic. And, you know, my friend Sylvia Borstein, my colleague, who calls herself a recovering catastrophizer, our personal mantra these days, which I really love, is not every bus ends up in a ditch. So when she finds herself in the beginning of that kind of arc of anxiety, she just reminds herself, it's just perspective-taking. Doesn't mean no bus ends up in a ditch, but it's like not every bus is going to end up

in a ditch. You don't have to be off and running with every situation. That might be potential. In your first answer, you raised two questions that I wrote down. You raised them rhetorically, but I'm going to ask them. You said, what does love mean? And can it be a strength? Yeah. So definitionally, I mean, it might be smart to start with, like, what is love, is loving kindness different? And how can either or both of these be a strength? Well, the classical translation for the word meta, M-T-T-A, from the Polly language, the language of the original Buddhist text, is loving kindness. And I've had translators and scholars say to me, just say love, stopping so cutesy. You know, you mean love, but love is also a complicated term.

You know, what does love mean? Is it a medium of exchange? Is it conditional? Is it a freely given gift? I tend to think of both loving kindness and love in this sense as a profound sense of connection. It's not necessarily even emotional. It's like a bone-deep recognition that our lives have something to do with one another. And as much as there is a useful construct of self-an-other and us and them, these are just constructs.

There's another level of reality where our lives are intertwined, where we're part of a kind of network. It doesn't mean you like everybody. It actually doesn't mean you like anybody, but there is that knowing, that really deep knowing, our lives have something to do with one another. So another antidote to anger or fear is interest from the classical teachings.

And you know when you take an interest in someone rather than just wanting to shun them or reject them or push them away, it's a very different relationship. And so I think of it like that. I don't think of it as something gooey or, sentimental or appreciative. It's like you may not appreciate that person or people at all in the sense of may you be triumphant. You know, it's not like that. But we know our lives are really connected. And based on that, when we take action, even if it's fierce, kind of intense action, it's not from such a heartfelt place of

divisiveness. And I think that's the strength. It's a radical notion. But it doesn't leave us sort of simpering, which is what everyone might tend to think. So tell me if you think I'm speaking about this and teaching about it correctly. As you know, I or one of our friends does a weekly live guided meditation and Q&A session through Dan Harris.com. I'm hoping to rope you into these. Last week, I was doing one by myself, and I was doing loving kindness, the traditional meditation practice where you start with, well, sometimes.

you start with yourself. Sometimes you start with an easy person, and then you move through a mentor, a neutral person, a difficult person, and then everybody. And then the difficult person, I gave everybody the option of a political figure they don't like. So for, I think, the vast majority of people in our set, it would be Trump, although I hope that we can attract some listeners on both or all sides of the spectrum. Anyway, somebody wrote in the comments, yeah, like, it's cute, Harris, that you think Trump could ever be happy when you wish that he be happy. And my point is, and this is picking up on you talking about interest and interconnection, this is about me in my mind, not Trump.

And my wish for him to be happy is not for him to succeed in his plans with which I disagree. It's, I think a happy person wouldn't be doing a lot of the shit that I find objectionable. And yeah, it's totally theoretical, but it's really don't get caught up in the Trump's dad, never loved him and therefore he can never be happy or he's somehow broken. That's not the point. I'm envisioning him as holistically happy, which is enlightened self-interest. Because we're all interconnected, it would be good for all of us if he was a happy person because happy people tend not to be assholes.

So that's my schick. Am I, you're nodding your head. Am I right or wrong? I think you're totally right. I was also thinking of when that book came out, Love Your Enemies, and I was presenting somewhere with Bob Thurman, and someone asked, a question about their boss and it's similar kind of question. And Bob said, you know, well, if they were happier, they'd be a lot less of an asshole. So yeah, that's kind of it. There's also, you know,

there's different flavors to loving kindness and one flavor is compassion, which is not like pity or commiseration. It's recognizing that when we ourselves act in a way that's reckless, it's harmful, it's hateful, even, it's coming from a place of pain. So, more than likely as people act in our view in a way that's very harmful. We can have almost a sense of compassion. Like sometimes I think, can you imagine devoting your life to putting other people down and only feeling good about yourself when you feel like you're number one or endless accumulation thinking that's going to keep you safe, like from change, from death?

Or, you know, it's a dog-eat-dog world, so don't help anybody else and how lonely you end up. in that perspective. And I think that could be a lifetime journey for people, you know, and I wouldn't want that life. I wouldn't want to be inside that mindset. And so there can be a kind of compassion without saying, yeah, go for it. You know, it's a very different state. And so sometimes loving kindness has that flavor. And the other thing I thought it was in the Tibetan tradition when they use phrases of loving kindness. It's often things like, may you have happiness and the causes of happiness may be free of suffering and the causes of suffering. So that would be a way of kind of incorporating a wisdom element to it.

It's like I'm not really wishing for you to be even more self-satisfied at whatever you're doing. I'm wishing for you to really discover the causes of happiness, the causes of suffering. Let's say a word or two about the second question and the pair of provocative questions that you posed, writing your first answer. We talked a little bit about what does love mean. And then the second question was, can it be a strength? A couple of things coming to mind as I ponder that. One is you in this conversation said, you know, this is an appeasement, this isn't Neville Chamberlain. It's about freedom. It's about optionality. And it kind of reminded me of something I once heard the Dalai Lama say when I was listening to him speak. The mind in altruistic mode,

a.k.a. loving mode, you can access the full brilliance of the human brain and mind because it's not constricted. So can you just pick up on those sentiments and hold forth? Yeah, I mean, I think look at how fear constricts us, you know, the choices we make the decisions, the way we hold back, the way we castigate ourselves. Like, I will never be able to, in my case, give a public talk. I will never be able to do that because I was so afraid. And we can also feel our way into, and this is where interest also comes in our mindfulness. What's that feel like to be locked into that state? Not to be having that state, but to be locked into that state and really paint a word picture of it or a picture of it and get to know it. And then imagine a state where we are feeling a sense

of connection toward another, not demanding we act in a a certain way or react in a certain way, but that our options of action are based on discernment and trying to figure out what's most skillful in this particular moment, not on like an old habit of holding back and feeling I could never do it and this is all doomed or whatever it might be. And you see that there's just a range of possibility. The other way people get constricted is when they make assumptions about loving kindness. Like if I were to come from a loving place, I could only say yes. I could only let them move back in.

I could only lend them more money. And I have a friend who was working a lot with the Dalai Lama in the early, early days, when he was first coming to the States. And there wasn't such formal security and things like that. So, you know, some people were getting very close to him. And she described her mother as someone who had big mental health challenges. And she was afraid of being in her mother's prayer. presence and she hadn't seen her in quite some time. And then she heard from her mother that

she wanted to see her. So she was in that sort of mental projection state, like I'm spending all this time with the Dalai Lama and I should be able to go see her and where's the altruism, where's the compassion. So she went to the Dalai Lama and she described the situation. And he, you know, was silent for a moment. And then he said, I think you should send your mother an enormous amount of loving kindness from a distance. It's not safe to be with her. And I thought about that. It was so different than what any of us might assume.

Like, of course, he's the Dalai Lama. He's going to say, go forth, you know, and go spend time with her, and loving kindness will protect you or whatever. But he didn't say that. Yeah, so my understanding of love properly understood is not catastrophic altruism or self-sacrifice. And so loving your enemy doesn't mean

you're, as you've said before, you know, hurling yourself at their feet, it can include setting boundaries and taking affirmative action. It's just that you don't need to do any of that, as I said earlier, with a heart of venom. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was Prentice Hemphill who said, boundaries are the way I can love myself and someone else at the same time, because that figures too, you know. Yes. Yes. Just a question about another thing you said earlier about one of the antidotes to fear slash hatred is interest. On a very practical note, one of the ways that works in my life as it pertains to this extremely volatile polarized moment in the history of the nation and the world is I really try to listen and read

articles by people with whom I disagree. And not like I was listening to a conservative podcast this morning and they were referring to hate listening to NPR. And that's exactly wrong, in my opinion. That's what is sometimes called predatory listening, where you're just listening to critique or disagree. I mean, actually, genuinely being interested in people's points of view. And oddly, I find it soothing because, you know, often I just flat out disagree or I'm too exhausted to even listen to them. But sometimes I realize, yeah, maybe something that I'm worried. about is a little bit of hysteria on my side. And also, it's nice to know that people with whom I disagree, like, I think most of them don't wake up in the morning thinking they're the Joker,

they're a bad guy trying to burn it all down. Some of them might. We all have our reasons for believing what we believe, even if it's stupid. I think that could be very interesting. I think it also depends on a level of discernment, even in listening to people with whom you disagree, you because it also depends on your own kind of vulnerabilities. It's like I feel like I personally have a lot of distress at situations where gaslighting is taking place, where I feel there's deception, where there's, I mean, there was so many secrets in my childhood that when I feel someone's lying to me or withholding the truth, it's not a good situation for me.

You know, it's not a place of balance or interest. It's just like very reactive. And so I know that about myself. And I would have to carefully choose. I mean, I don't want flagrant partisanship on any side, you know, because there's no information. There are many times when I don't listen to a commentator at all. I think I'm going to go back to YouTube and listen to the original speech or read the original document or something like that and decide for myself. So I think it's also good to know your own vulnerabilities and to have a sense of boundaries or

that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your point is that, yeah, Harris, interest can be a positive force for some people in this polarized environment, but for some of us, we need to protect our own nervous systems. You didn't say anything that made me personally concerned, but for some people, I worry that that is a recipe for wrapping themselves in the warm blanket of their own prejudices and only listening to people who confirm their priors and throw them red meat. And I see that happening on all sides. Yeah, no, I think that's true, which is why I think having a sense of determination to find out for yourself, not through a filter, as much as possible, like, go back to the original speech or document or something like that and without someone else telling you what

you should be feeling about it. Yes. You know, and try to understand as much as possible. I remember a million years ago when the cover of Time magazine, you know, like person of the year was basically YouTube. It was you through YouTube. And I thought, what's that about? And then I started realizing I use that, you know, like when there's some political statement

and I don't quite know what I feel about it, I go back to YouTube to watch the speech myself and then make a decision as best I can or I try to get information. Like, what was the historical implication of approaching this issue that way or that way? Because there's history there as well. And so I wouldn't want to be beholden to anybody really contouring the so-called truth for me. Coming up, Sharon Salzberg talks about the four different types of enemies. and we expand and dial in on various Buddhist teachings and concepts like the meaning of mindfulness, the parable of the second arrow, and the how-to of a Tibetan compassion practice called Tonglen. We've been talking for quite a while, and we have not yet gotten into the guts of this book you wrote with Bob Thurman a while back.

With your permission, I'd like to go there. In the book, Love Your Enemies, you talk about four kinds of enemies. outer, inner, secret, and super secret. Can you walk us through this taxonomy? Sure, that's a Tibetan formulation. Bob is a well-known Tibetan Buddhist scholar. The outer enemy is those people or situations or systems that we feel are trying to harm us. And here we have the dynamic I was talking about before harm someone we care about or peoples we care about.

So we have the dynamic I was talking about before. Sometimes it's just projection and we can be much freer. Sometimes it's not. And we're in a really difficult or even dangerous situation at certain times. And we have to examine, you know, again, whether hatred and fear are the most effective motivational bases out of which to act. Or are there ways we can find tremendous strength out of a sense of wisdom and connection? And then inner enemies are those states like anger and fear, hatred, jealousy. And it's important to understand that it's not just feeling those states, even feeling them intensely.

It's when we're all wrapped up, when we're consumed, when we're defined by something. So it is determining our action or our withholding of action, which is its own kind of action. because that functions to hold us back, to limit us, to confine us, to burden us in the Buddha's psychology when the Buddha talked about anger and not, again, not feeling anger, even intense anger, but being overwhelmed by it, he likened to a forest fire which burns up its own support. And that means us, it burns up our body, our nervous system, our relationships. It destroys lives. And like a forest fire, it also may leave us very far from where we were.

want to be. And so we can, in a way, harness the energy of it. The positive part of it is the energy that we're not passive, we're not complacent, but without the kind of being consumed by it and overwhelmed by it, that's really the goal. If we are consumed by it, it's functioning as an enemy. And the secret enemy was kind of the construct of a separate self that is independent, disconnected, empowered to rule in a way over life, which is really a kind of belief, you know, that there's a being in there that should be in control of absolutely everything, but it seems to be in control of not much, you know, of anything. And, you know, that sense of, it's not that countering that we all kind of morphed together

into some sort of soup. We have individual existence. That's true. but it's interconnected rather than so separate and apart. So when we feel that kind of chasm of aloneness, obviously it's very detrimental to our well-being. The fourth super secret enemy, Bob defined as a kind of self-loathing.

It's a feeling like we don't have any capacity to grow, to change, to love, to understand that we're stuck in whatever we're experiencing. And so those were the four enemies as he laid them out. So the super secret is kind of predicated upon the secret. So if the secret enemy is this sense there's some homunculus of Dan separate from the world, which cuts me off, then the super secret, which is the self-loathing, it requires a sense of some fixed separate self in order to operate.

Am I right about that? Yeah, and it also requires almost a sense of permanence and irredeemability. One of my favorite Dalai Lama stories is from the time he came to visit us at IMS at the Insight Meditation Society, which was 1979. We heard Bob Thurman at that time was a professor at Amherst College, which is about 45 minutes away. And we heard he was coming. It was his first trip to the United States in 1979. He was coming to visit Bob and teach for him. So we shot off a letter to the private office, being very young and naive, saying maybe he'd like to visit us too.

And sure enough, we got a letter back saying, yeah, he'll come. So he came in 1979. And there are many, many stories about that day. But we had a retreat that was ongoing. So people had been sitting in retreat for about two weeks or something like that. And the Dalai Lama asked to go into the meditation hall. give a talk and then took questions. So this young man raised his hand. And he said, I've been meditating for about two weeks and I've decided I just can't do it. I have no capacity to

understand anything. I can't change. I can't grow. I'm just sunk. Something like that. And the dialogue, remember this is his first trip to the United States. He looked really kind of puzzled like, huh? And then he said, you're wrong. You're just wrong. And then he went on to talk about as they would formulate a Buddha nature, and we all have a capacity, a potential for all those things, understanding growth, change, love. And it was funny because after the talk, after the presentation, all these people came up to me complaining about what the Dalai Lama had said. They said, that's bad pedagogy. She'd never tell anybody that they're wrong. That's just bad. But you know who really got a lot out of it was the young man who totally changed after that,

you know? So that was interesting too. So it's that sense of, well, I guess these days we'd say the difference between a fixed mind state and a growth mind state. Yes, yes. You know, I'm lost. There's no hope. Okay, so the book then goes on to give some practical things we can do about each of these four kinds of enemies. So if you're up for it, I'd like to walk through those. So again, the first enemy is the outer enemy, this projection of danger where sometimes it exists and sometimes it may not exist.

the practice, I believe you recommend, is something called critical wisdom. Yeah. Critical wisdom is kind of fierce, you know. It's a little bit like what we were talking about before. It's understanding the difference between our motivation and our action. Like our action needs to be our best guess of what's most skillful in the moment. Maybe it's saying no. Maybe it's leaving the scene.

Maybe it's being gentle. Maybe it's not being so gentle. discernment. And of course, we make mistakes. But it's our best guess of what's most skillful in that moment. It's also been interesting to me that these teachings are contextual. It depends on the relationship. It depends on the moment. It depends on the situation. There's sometimes not a universal truth. Like people say, should I always give money to someone on the street? And that may be situational, you know, depending on what we assess in the moment. But knowing the difference between that and our inner state,

that which is motivating us, is really crucial because we discover we can be coming from a motive that's more aligned with wisdom, with compassion, with connection, and still take really strong action. Yes. One thing that's been really clarifying from me, and I learned this from you, is this concept of Bodhi Chita, which is just to be motivated to benefit all beings everywhere, right? Just kind of omnidirectional good vibes.

You're crucially not left out of it. All beings includes you. If you can cultivate that and look, plenty of days when I don't have it or plenty of moments when it just lapses and I do something stupid. But if I can cultivate that as a source of energy, a clean burning fuel.

Well, then the critical wisdom comes in. Let me make the best guess about the wisest thing I can do with this as my motivation. Yeah, that's great. Okay. There's a certain, and this holds for the next enemy as well. In Tibetan Buddhism, they call it, it's just like a gentle turning toward oneself to see, how does this make me feel? you know, like you're about to erupt at somebody.

How does that make you feel? Or we know we have a flexibility because we see in different roles we adapt. Like if you're supervising someone at work and your motivation genuinely is to mentor them, not to just put them down so you feel better about yourself. What's your best guess of the way to address this problem or this issue? and it will be different because you may be really annoyed and you may be about to lash out. And then you touch back in with that motivation. And you think, well, what good will come from that?

Maybe I'll try saying it this way or all those times, you know, in the great annals of right speech. You know, you're talking to somebody about somebody else and you're about to say something really nasty. True, but nasty. and then just asking, you know, you just turn a little bit towards yourself and your motivation. And you just ask yourself, well, what would be the result of telling this person? What good will come from this person, knowing this about this other person and turning them against them? Is that going to do anybody any good? Or am I just going to feel kind of puffed up in the moment?

Like, I know something you don't know. So we have so much choice and that's very empowering. Yes. And it's a lot of responsibility. you know, there's a formula, but there's a lot of agency within the formula. We've gone through the four kinds of enemies, and now we're going to talk about what we can do about them. We started with outer, which is, you know, our correct or incorrect diagnosis of threats in the environment. Inner is sort of our inner capacity for rage, jealousy, hatred.

And I believe the practice that you recommend for the inner enemy is. patience? I think that patience is born out of mindfulness, which is an ability to know what we're feeling and to feel it, but without being consumed by it, which is tricky, you know, of course, because we tend to think, well, I've got to get over this, or I've got to vanquish this, or I'm bad because I still feel this, and I'm hateful because I have hate, you know, whatever. but to recognize over and over again that mindfulness doesn't mean not feeling certain things. It means having a different relationship to what we're feeling. You can almost talk about mindfulness as a balanced awareness.

We're not consumed by something. We're not overwhelmed and drenched in something. And at the same time, we're not pushing it away. We're not rejecting it. We're not trying to make it go away. It's like, here we are together, this anger in me. And then as we experience it, a lot of interest arises there too. Like anger is not just one thing or jealousy or fear.

It's a compound of all these different strands coming together. You know, we're looking at, say, anger, and you see moments of sadness and moments of fear, maybe moments of grief, moments of regret. And you just kind of watch these come together and come apart if we can watch it. and we can have a kind of forgiveness of ourselves, you know, whatever we're feeling. Like we couldn't control it. You can't insist. I'm never going to be afraid again.

It doesn't work that way. Life is not that way. We can understand causes and conditions and understand, well, if I don't sleep at night then I'm much more prone to losing my temper or being overcome by fear. And so you try to sleep at night. It doesn't mean we're passive. but that idea of absolute control. I'm insisting I will never get angry again.

I'll never get afraid again. Life's not like that. And so we can forgive ourselves for what we're feeling and develop a different relationship with all those feelings. And the beautiful ones too, because that's part of it we don't often talk about, you know, that clearly we're very painphobic, you know, and it's very difficult for us to open to painful feelings.

But sometimes it's really difficult to open to beautiful and wonderful feelings as well. And so it's a kind of universal task to practice presence and openness with whatever's happening. And if we can do that more and more, we discover a kind of patience in life and tolerance that wasn't there before. As you're speaking, I was thinking a little bit about the second arrow. Yeah. Does that seem relevant to you? And if so, you want to explain it? It's another image that is very useful sometimes in the Buddhist teaching where somebody gets shot by.

an arrow. And of course, that hurts. I think that genuinely hurts. But then in an attempt to uproot the arrow, they kind of take another arrow and they try to get out and they hurt themselves a lot more. So the second arrow is not what happens. It's not what arises. It's how we are relating to what arises, which sometimes hurts a lot more in the end through the kind of coalescing of all these different reactions, you know, and the seeming solidification of the pain. It's actually a lot worse than even the original injury. And so here, too, we're very empowered because you can't stop those first arrows from flying, you know, that is life sometimes. But how we react and the strength, the agency,

to be creative and not just fall into those old ruts of reactivity and to test out options, to see where our power lies, to see where our happiness actually lies. is something that is in our hands. An experience I've had many times, and I think it's quite common, if not universal, is I'll have an experience, like recently, the last couple of years, as I've discussed publicly before, I've had a lot of panic in closed quarters, like elevators and airplanes. And I'll panic a little bit on a plane or a lot on a plane, and that sucks. That's an arrow. And then I'll add the second arrow of, well, I'm supposed to be Mr. Fucking Han. How can this be happening to me?

Now I'm taking a clonopin. That's even more embarrassing. That's the second arrow. And I think all day long we have a mean thought, a bigoted thought, an angry thought. And then we tell ourselves a whole story about what kind of person we are as a result instead of just being mindful of a condition to rising in the mind. Yeah. And it's not just you. It's never just you.

But it feels like it's just you when we're caught in that maelstrom of the second arrow. And it does. It hurts so much worse, you know, than just give yourself a break. These things arise. One of my early meditation teachers named Minendra said something to me like, why are you so upset about this thought that has come up in your mind? Did you invite it? Did you say at 3.15, I'd like to be filled with self-hatred, please? No. But when conditions come together for something to arise, it will arise. Can we affect those conditions? We certainly try, but we cannot utterly control them. We cannot. And so you can wake up in the morning and say, I've decided not to have any panic today, but good luck.

As the saying goes, hopefully that would be true. Maybe it's not true, but it's okay. And it's never, ever just you. And that's part of what's so beautiful, for example, about your talking about these things, you know, or just closing them is that a lot of people hearing you, breathing a sigh of relief, you know, and saying, oh, thank goodness, you know. it's like someone's admitting it it's not just me i love that i've set up a life where for me to do my job well i have to continue to be a moron that's right it was like ramdhas was sort of like that too his neuroses were like the most relieving thing in the world like that's like god you know yes ramdaz just for the uninitiated is i think of him as like the proto-jubu he was actually

more of a hindu but harvard psychology professor got fired for doing experiments and with psychedelics, then went off to India and changed his name from Richard Alpert to Ram Dass and became a quite influential author and teacher and including for people like you. And he was very open about his neuroses. I think he said he called himself a connoisseur of his neuroses. Okay. So the third kind of enemy is secret. And that is this suspicion that many of us harbor often subconsciously, which can make it even more dangerous, that. we are some fixed, irreducible, unchangeable self, fretfully navigating a hostile universe.

And the antidote to that is a practice that you call exchange of self and other. And the Tibetan practice, that's Tonlin, it's exchange of self and other. And the basis of that is a real understanding of interconnection, because that aloneness, that incredible sense of corrosive isolation is the problem with that enemy. And this is just wisdom, you know, like I love just these reflections about interconnection. It doesn't mean that we morph into this soup, you know, with undifferentiated bodies and minds. It's understanding that even though we are individuals, we do not actually live an existence that is independent. of one another. So like my favorite question going into a workplace or an organization to teach is

how many other people need to be doing their job well for you to do your job well? Because really the unacknowledged people who are really central to our success exist. And sometimes that doesn't resonate. So I say, well, did you commute to work? Do you ever think about the auto mechanic or the train engineer? Or do you stay home? and work from home? Is it a technology company that you are kind of relying on? Sometimes that doesn't resonate. So then I say, did you eat today? And if you didn't grow all of your own food, just spend a moment thinking about the many lives that are involved in that plate of broccoli being in front of you right now. You know, someone planted a seed, some soil, and someone harvested a crop, and someone

transported it. And we live in an interdependent universe. And there isn't always a pleasant understanding. For years, I was saying, I'm really interested in the fact that we live in a time where that isn't necessarily spiritual understanding. Like, economics shows us this, and environmental consciousness certainly shows us this. And I used to say, epidemiology shows us this. And people who say, why are you talking about epidemiology? What is that? You know, and look where we are. Right? What happens over there doesn't nicely stay over there. It ripples out. It affects us over here. and what we do, where we put our energy, what we care about. It matters because it too will ripple out.

The more we understand, again, it's like a gut level understanding interconnection, the more we relate to one another differently, to issues, to problems differently, to the need for a collective sense of understanding. We relate very differently. Yeah, so what I wish for Trump to be happy, I wish for him to understand this. Exactly. Me too. So Tonglen, the exchange of self and other.

Can you just describe how that is done practically, so listeners can do it themselves if they want? Yeah, I mean, it's a practice that some people find very daunting, but you basically, in Tomlin, you breathe in the suffering, the situation, the difficulty, the grievance, whatever it is of someone else or someone, you know, many beings. You breathe it in. you transform it within to this kind of spaciousness and openness where anything could be possible.

And then you breathe out light and love and the good things of life. And it's a practice that's very powerful and kind of universalizing one's own real pain about something. Like I had a friend whose brother was in the hospital. and her Tibetan teacher counseled her to do this practice, like not just to care about her brother, but like maybe everybody in the hospital and maybe everybody, we're so vulnerable, life's so fragile. And it's scary for a lot of people

because you think I'm breathing in a lot of schmots, you know, and the key is that sort of moment when you kind of almost dissolve all of that into the sense of possibility and openness and then you breathe out, the good stuff. Are there pitfalls or potential misunderstandings or misapplications of this, like in the breathing in of the schmutz and then in the transformation? Can there be a kind of oversimplification, disnification right there? There are always pitfalls in any practice.

You know, of course, people often, they forget that inner step and it's not so easy to understand. You think you're breathing in like all this garbage and it doesn't feel very goodness to make you sick. things like that, but that doesn't actually happen. And it certainly doesn't happen when we understand that dissolution into, you could say, spaciousness or possibility, which is the source of then having resource to breathe out. I mean, a lot of times in these practices, like say you're doing loving kindness, which, you know, is not precisely this, but it's sort of related, you feel like you've got to manufacture all that love, you know, and send it out. And it's up to you. And this is the kind of practice that dispels that because you're almost touching the source out of which

this can come through you rather than it being something you're manufacturing. I'm still not entirely clear. So where my mind is going is, so Tonglin is a Tibetan practice. Loving kindness is a Taravadan sort of old school Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, of later school. In Tarabata practice, there's loving kindness, and then there's a cousin or sister practice called Karuna or Compassion Meditation, which seems close to Tonglin, actually, which is you envision somebody who's having a hard time and you send them the wish that they be free from suffering or pain or fear or whatever it is, all of them. That I understand because, at least I've done enough of that practice to know that.

it isn't all on me. It's just the wish. I don't have to feel any kind of way. That's liberating insight actually for that practice. You don't have to feel any kind of way you're just doing the reps. Just like with a bicep curl. You don't have to feel powerful. Just do the thing. But Tonglen feels different. First of all, because it's matched to the rhythm of the breath. So it's got a more rhythmic quality to it. But then there's this step of this transformation that isn't quite as simple as, you know, I'm just breathing out. the wish that you be free from suffering, it's something else. And that's something else is where I get a little confused. Yeah, well, it is very subtle.

And it's often left out, I would imagine, in using that practice. But that is actually the core of the traditional practice. We might say dissolving in an emptiness, but that's almost like saying the suffering that you're breathing in is not so solid, so unyielding, so permanent, so inflexible, that within it there's also spaciousness. And it's not an easy teaching, you know. And so there's a transformative process in that breathing in.

You're not just sort of, it's not like an exchange plan. Like I've got this much suffering. I'm sending you this much light, you know. But you're seeing more into the nature of the suffering. And you're seeing the porousness within the suffering. And in that moment, which I think you have to do pretty quickly, in that porousness, you find the light, so to speak. Yeah, I'm probably over intellectualizing it, but I'll just keep going in that potentially not so fruitful direction. But what I hear, based on my limited understanding of the Dharma as I'm listening to you talk, is a core insight of Buddhism is that everything's changing all the time.

and everything is changing based on this vast gumbo of causes and conditions. And so the suffering that I might be considering in this practice of Tonglen or exchange of self and other, whatever suffering is relevant to the situation is conditional and therefore porous. And so just kind of filtering whatever suffering I am addressing through that understanding. Yeah, that's great. Good for you. That's a great explanation. And I would also say that my uncertainty, I'm not on teach tonal in practice, I've done just a little bit of it.

As a practice, my uncertainty about teaching is that I think that whole layer of loving kindness for yourself is kind of assumed. And I wouldn't want to make that assumption about a lot of people, including myself. You know, that that's there at the ready. that's going to be the basis of our being able to do this transformative process or find the sense of resource to breathe out all this good stuff. I don't think it's missing. I think it's just assumed. And I would personally rather do a practice where it's explicit, you know, rather than implicit.

Right. So without the explicit warmth toward yourself, Tonglan might actually veer into sort of what I was calling before, like a catastrophic self-sacrificing altruism. Yes, I never heard that phrase. I like that phrase, catastrophic altruism. What does John Halifax call it, like, toxic altruism or something? These are great distinctions that we really need to be making. Coming up, Sharon talks about the final enemy on the list,

the one that was most helpful to me, And we talk briefly about her new kids book, Kind Carl, which would make a great Christmas present or holiday gift, whatever you celebrate. Okay, let me get to the fourth, the super secret enemy and its antidote. Again, the super secret enemy is predicated upon the secret enemy. Secret enemy is a sense that you're somehow separate from the living universe. The super secret is based on that separation, that fixedness. That's not a word, but that sense of being fixed. stuck separate, you can tell yourself a whole story about how you are irredevable, unchangeable.

And so the antidote to that is what's called the yoga of self-creation. That too would be a Tibetan slant on things, you know, where they may do a visualization of a deity, but you become the deity. In a way, it's like a reflection of when I wrote this other book called Real Love, I said it was based on one line in a movie, the movie being Dan in real life, written and directed by Peter Hedges. And Peter had a character say, love is not a feeling, it's an ability. And as soon as I heard that, I just loved it.

I thought it reflected so much of my experience during loving kindness meditation. And, of course, it is also a feeling, and it may be the feeling we yearn for. But if we think of love only as a feeling, we tend to think of it as a commodity. and it's in the hands of someone else to either bestow upon us or take away from us. And I often would get that image of like the UPS person standing at my doorstep with this package of love and looking down at the address and saying, no, I think I'll go somewhere else. And I go, wait a minute, then there's no love in my life. But if it's an ability, it's within me.

And it may be that other people ignite it or inspire it or threaten it, but ultimately it is mine. that's the sense that we have ability, we have capacity, no matter what we've been through, no matter what we may yet go through, no matter what we've done, we all have this capacity. It's not because I did something special. You know, we all have it.

It cannot be destroyed. It may be covered over. It may be hard to see. It may be hard to trust, but it is absolutely there. It's on that basis that we practice, that we cultivate different strengths because we can. And that's a very different worldview than feeling, I'm lost.

I'm a loser, you know, it's like it's not going to go anywhere. And you can really see how that functions as an enemy. And so everything we do that helps us have a sense of potential, not fully realized growth, but potential is really useful. I can remember doing loving kindness meditation and feeling so much love and thinking, is that me? Am I really capable? And I realized, yeah, I'm the one feeling it.

So it's an ability within us. When I wrote the book, I was quite late turning in the manuscript. And the editor said to me, you didn't finish the book. You have to finish the book. And I said, of course I finished the book. That's why I turned it in. I said, no, you didn't finish the book. You just told some story and drifted off somewhere.

You have to finish the book. and I could not finish the book. I stared at the computer screen and stared at it, and I could not finish the book. And then the 2016 U.S. presidential election happened, and I finished the book in 15 minutes. Because it came to me that if love is an ability, maybe it's also a responsibility.

And that if I want love to be present in a conversation, maybe I have to be the one to bring it in. Or I want it as part of an assessment of a solution to something. Maybe I have to be the one to suggest it. And that's how I finished the book. Really good. I'm running that down. I'm not sure you answered the question, though, about the yoga of self-creation.

That would sort of be a Tibetan version of it, where you imagine a deity, you visualize a deity. And the deities are chosen often on the basis of some attribute. Maybe your teacher wants to inspire in you or whatever, you know, wisdom or love or. something and you visualize the deity, but then you become the deity. So it's a little bit like what I experienced in doing loving kindness meditation. It's like I became something. I never thought I could. You know, in Tibetan practice, they use active imagination a lot that way.

It's almost like, wow, is this me? You know, like here I am, radiating light in all directions. Like, wow, look at this. You know, I don't have to just like sink into my corner again. That's how you sort of realize that the limitations we have so often are just self-imposed through culture or through conditioning in some way and that we are capable of so much. One last question about the book, and then I want to turn to your new book. I think, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, one of the punchlines of Love Your Enemies

is that ultimately there are no enemies. What does that mean? That was also a little bomb by Bob in the sense that the solidification of what we interpret as an enemy is really a mistake. And that when we understand, first of all, everything depends on how we're relating. You know, like our own anger may not be an enemy if we are relating in a certain way with forgiveness toward ourselves and patience and ability not. not to be engulfed in it. Even this other person who we feel is trying to harm us may not be an enemy in that we have removed ourselves from the situation or we have not taken so to heart the story they have told about us. We don't have to become what they are saying. The ways in which

we can find courage and strength that render ineffective these so-called enemies. And there's also a way in which we can decide what our North Star is, what our life is about, and that enmity, you know, hatred and fear is not something we want to live by. I've often pondered that statement of the Buddha's where he said hatred will never cease by hatred. Hatred will only cease by love. This is an eternal law. And the more we understand genuinely where our happiness comes from, and strength and wisdom, the more we see that that kind of rigid categorization of a mind state or a person as an enemy, and holding to that, is not serving us toward that end. There are ways in which, as you know, we do loving kindness practice toward those who have

helped us who've been like benefactors. We do loving kindness practice toward those who are friends. We do loving kindness practice toward those we don't like. again, understanding what it means and what it doesn't mean. But it's not uncommon for people to say, well, you know, I was doing loving kindness for my benefactor and I was feeling all this gratitude. And then I remembered, you know, there was that one time when they didn't call me back and they weren't really there for me. Maybe they're my difficult person.

Maybe they're not my benefactor. As the Dalai Lama said, quoting Shanti-Dava, this great Tibetan sage, friends become enemies. Enemies become friends. Life is molten. It's changing. Everything is so changeable. And so we don't have to hold someone or a part of ourselves as this permanent and flexible forever enemy who I hate because we're going to be miserable as a result. Well said.

Before I let you go, let's talk a little bit about your new book. It's a children's book called Kind Carl. How did you end up writing a children's book? Well, my first book was Loving Kindness. It was published by Shambala. It came out in 1995. And they have just started a line of children's books. They had an author that they had often used. And they asked me about working together with Jason, Gruel, to create this children's book about loving kindness. So it's about Carl the crocodile, who's so cute, who learns to be kind. and it's got some loving kindness instruction at the end.

And I actually wanted to talk to you about borrowing your son, literally, because the book's coming out, December 9th. I'm not totally sure about how to present a children's book, like in a reading. And I thought, maybe I could borrow Alexander who teaches loving kindness sometimes. Alexander really likes attention, so I'm sure you'd be happy to do it. Okay. Just to fill that in, you know, as a parent, you often wonder whether you're having any impact on your kid, aside from annoying them. And one of the hallmarks of my parenting is that I take Alexander or historically I've taken him with me everywhere. Once he turned five, I just started taking him on all my travels.

And so we've gone all over the world together. And I made what I think is a wise parenting decision, which is that I don't lecture him about meditation or any of that stuff. he is in the world of it, your next-door neighbor, Joseph Goldstein, who's an amazing meditation teacher, most of the listeners will know, Joseph and Sam Harris and I recorded a whole series, an eight-hour series for the waking up app on the noble eightfold path, like this one of the foundational lists of the Buddha. And Alexander was in the room the whole time, you know, like half the time he was on his iPad, but the rest of the time was just listening. I don't think he was happy about it. But like, he's just,

just been around a lot of Dharma. And then I found out a couple of years ago, the principal of his school called and said, yeah, your son's been teaching loving kindness around the school. The high school heard about this and they wanted him to come teach it there. I'll put in the show notes. I actually made a little Instagram video of my son teaching high school students, loving kindness meditation. Anyway, so I'm not sure how much he understands the concepts.

I think he likes the attention. That's fine. What is that old Jewish line about you put the word of God on top of your heart? Because eventually we'll get into your heart. Oh, that's nice. So maybe that's how it will happen with Alexander. But a long way of saying, I'm sure he'd be game for whatever hijinks you've got in mind. Okay.

I'll be in touch. Okay. So the idea of kind Carl is that this alligator, many of us associate alligators. Crocodile. Crocodile, my bad. Right. They're different. They have different snouts.

They have different snouts. It's one of my favorite words, snout. The crocodiles are not often associated with loving kindness, and yet even this fearsome creature has the innate capacity for love that can be watered and grown. Absolutely. And, you know, he did it, Carl did it in part by looking at his thoughts. Like, nobody likes me and I'm stupid and realizing that they were just thoughts. and that he could be different.

And sometimes he felt happy, sometimes he felt sad, but he learned to be kinder to himself. And then he learned not to snap at others. And he made a lot more friends. And right at the end, there's activities for everyday loving kindness for kids, loving kindness, meditation, gratitude, joy for others, compassion, things like that. So it's really my favorite illustration is right at the end. There's Carl the Crocodile meditating and you see these thought clouds.

May I be peaceful. May you be safe. May you be healthy. You know, he's doing loving kindness meditation. He's so cute. Didn't our mutual friend, Richie Davidson, the eminent neuroscientist, didn't he do some landmark research that showed that when you teach preschoolers, loving kindness meditation, they're more likely to give their stickers away to kids they don't like?

Yes. And he's doing more. And I sent him a PDF of the book, you know. So he's about to engage in even further research. Yes, he did it. And it's kind of wonderful that people like him, you know, who are such eminent researchers are turning their attention to children so much. You mentioned gratitude.

Are there Dharma teachings around gratitude? There are because sympathetic joy, which is one of the companion qualities to loving kindness, along with compassion and equanimity. Sympathetic joy is feeling happiness for the happiness of others. And one of the reasons it's very difficult sometimes is because we feel we have nothing going ourselves. You know, it's like you have everything and you will forever

and I have nothing and I will forever. And of course, there's several problems with that because nothing is forever. But also that feeling of like, I have absolutely nothing. We may not have much we're paying attention to or appreciating. but it's not like we have nothing. And it's also unlikely you have absolutely everything, but that's its own issue. But in order to counter that sense of I have nothing,

I'm depleted, I'm kind of empty in that sense of the word. You have everything. In contrast, we do gratitude reflections and realize we're not so bereft. We're not so without or impoverished that we actually can offer someone loving kindness or sympathetic joy out of a space of, if not inner abundance, at least inner sufficiency. Is there something you were hoping to get to in this conversation that we haven't gotten to?

No, I just really appreciate. I always like talking to you. And someday I want to sit down and ask you a bunch of questions about loving kindness. And it is such an interesting time with so much hatred and so much fear on the rise and sometimes being pronounced. And, you know, sometimes I feel like there are these voices that saying, what about love? You know, like, what about that?

You know, really, it's okay. It's important. It's vitally important. And I'm also glad that Carl the crocodile is coming into the world. So I usually end by asking people to mention stuff they've made that the listener should know about. You mentioned kind Carl. I'll put a link in the show notes for people who want to purchase that. You also mentioned your book, which came out 30 years ago, loving kindness.

Loving kindness, 1995. Okay. Which I remember, as I've often joked, reading on an airplane but covering up with another book because I didn't want anybody to see me reading something called loving kindness. My attitudes have really changed. I forgot about that. That's true. And you also mentioned real love, which came out.

When did that come out? That came out after the pandemic began somewhere in there. 2020-ish. Yeah, or maybe before the pandemic, just before it, because then real change came. I have a lot of books. Also, to mention aside from Sharon's books, which include loving kindness, real love, real happiness, real change, and kind Carl, also your podcast, The Meta Hour? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, M-E-T-A, where I get the chance to interview people about mindfulness, about love, about their work in the world. So as you know, it's a very rewarding exercise. And I learn a lot. Yes. Final thing I want to mention on your behalf in terms of promotion is Sharon is one of the co-founders of the Insight Meditation Society, which is coming up on its 50th anniversary. And IMS is doing something, in my view, incredibly important, which is building a third center. On the property, there are now two centers where you can meditate. There's the main retreat center. and then there's a place for experienced practitioners called the Forest Refuge. IMS is now raising money for a third center, which will be on the grounds.

This is really important because it's very hard to get into a retreat right now. If you've ever tried to sign up at Dharma.org for a retreat at IMS, you will have undoubtedly noticed that it's really hard to get into them. They're often run on a lottery system. So having more capacity for more retreats is good not only for us as rank and file yogis, but also good for retreat teachers who I think we all want to support and give opportunities to make a living. Anything else do you want to say about this third center for people listening? I think it's really exciting. It's also, of course, daunting. You know, I was 23 when we started IMS, the original, and there was no knowing. We looked at that building, which was a Catholic

novitiate, and thought, how many people in this country are ever going to want to meditate do this kind of meditation and look what happened, you know? So we're kind of entering a new era. And it feels like the right thing to do, to, as you say, try to meet demand, which is exploding, and try to serve people. It's a refuge. It's a sanctuary. It's also a learning center. People come there not just for an experience, but for, in a way, training to get some tools that they can take out into their lives. So it feels like the right time to do that.

IMS has been truly, and I use this term unironically, like a beacon, a vector of practical wisdom that has had ripple effects that are incalculable. So I'm supporting this third center fundraising campaign. I encourage you to do so, even if it's just a couple bucks. I'll put links in the show notes for anybody who wants to get involved. Meanwhile, Sharon, love talking to you. Thank you for making time to do this. Thank you so much and for lending me your son. Careful what you wish for.

Thanks again to Sharon Salzberg. Always love hanging out with her in any context. Don't forget to check out her new book, like I said, a great holiday gift. And don't forget to go to the show notes where I've got a link to the fundraiser for IMS. They're trying to build this third center, which would allow for more people to get into more retreats. I'm a huge supporter of this. I would love to have you join me. Also, finally, don't forget that there's a loving-kindness meditation that comes with this episode.

It's from our Teacher of the Month, Jeff Warren. It's available to subscribers at Dan Harris.com. And if you sign up, you can also come to our weekly live meditation and Q&A sessions. Our next one's on December 16th. Finally, thank you to everybody who works so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.