Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How to Gracefully Handle Defeat I Former Congressman Tim Ryan

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

Ryan also talks about how meditation helped him ride out a brutal political campaign,  escaping the grind, and whether he’ll run for office again.Tim Ryan served for 20 years in the U.S. Congress. He is the author of a book on the power of mindfulness. He is the author of a book on the power of mindfulness, Healing America: How a Simple Practice Can Help Us Recapture the American Spirit and a book on reforming the broken food systems, The Real Food Revolution: Healthy Eating, Green Groceries, and the Return of the American Family Farm.In this episode we talk about:How his practice helped him weather a brutal political campaign Why he’s joined the ice bath crazeThe link between breathwork and meditationHow he’s adjusting to civilian life after 20 years in WashingtonHow he handled things when he realized the race was not going his wayWhat he was thinking and feeling when he made his concession speechWhat it’s like to be outside of the DC fishbowlThe freedom that comes with not living under a microscopeThe kids basketball game made him realize his life had changed Escaping the grindWhether he’s considered running for office againAnd what the rough and tumble of politics has taught him about dealing with difficult peopleFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/tim-ryanSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's the 10% happier podcast. I'm your host, your guy, Dan Harris. Hey, hey, we've got a great conversation for you today. I'm not exaggerating. I love to this conversation. You're going to hear from a guy who quite recently experienced a bitter and very public defeat and is handling it with an enormous amount of grace in ways that can be instructive to pretty much all of us, I think.

I'll admit here that I'm biased. This guy is a friend. His name is Tim Ryan. For 20 years, he was a Democratic Congressman from Ohio, and then he ran for Senate and lost to his Republican opponent, JD Vance. Tim and I became friends many years ago. In fact, he's been on this show before. We met not through my job as a journalist, but through meditation circles, Tim was probably the only big time Washington politician who was openly practicing and promoting meditation. In fact, he wrote a whole book on the power of mindfulness called Healing America, and he has a special talent for talking about the benefits of the practice in an utterly

unaffected and down-to-earth way. In this conversation, we talked about how his practice helped him weather a brutal and, like I said, very public campaign, why he has joined the ice bath craze, the link between breathwork and meditation, how he is adjusting to civilian life after 20 years in Washington, how he handled things when he realized the race was not going to go his way and what he was thinking and feeling when he made his concession speech. Have you been considering starting or restarting your meditation practice? Well in the words of highway billboards across America, if you're looking for a sign, this

is it. To help you get started, we're offering subscriptions at a 40% discount until September 3rd. Of course, nothing is permanent. So get this deal before it ends by going to 10% dot com slash 40. That's 10% one word all spelled out dot com slash 40 for 40% off your subscription. Tim Ryan, welcome to the show. Great to be with you, man. Nice to see you. Yeah, been a while. It's cool to do this in person. Yeah. So we all watched you go through a really tough, rough and tumble campaign. And I was wondering the whole time, how's he doing? Is the meditation helpful?

You seem like a happy warrior, but I don't know if you're a politician, you can't always be totally real. So does the meditation help? Can you meditate when you're on the campaign trail? It was essential. A lot of breathing, because you know how when you try to sit in your mind,

just going nuts and you don't have like 45 minutes to like sit and like clear out everything So I got into like really deep breathing a lot of the Wim Hof stuff a lot of the art of living stuff Tree Tree teaches and that was really helpful because then five six minutes of that boom drop right in So I was able to do that pretty much almost every day and then I would have like before before I went to bed, it was always like get back in your body. And so it kind of worked. Well, I'm just going to be geeky and ask a few like technical questions. So when you're talking about deep breathing, you mean you'd do five or six minutes of deep inhales and then exhales that are three times longer than the inhale. Yeah, I would do that. I would do the 478, like the Andruis,

kinda in for four, hold for seven, out for eight. I would do that a lot. But then the Wim Hof stuff was in out deep for 30 or 40 reps, exhale, which I've never done this until I started doing the Wim Hof stuff. Exhale and hold your breath. I've always been an inhale for four, hold your breath. I've always been like an inhale for four, hold your breath for seven, out for eight.

And for some reason his is like exhale. And then you hit a clock and you like time, how long can you hold your breath for? I think part of it's like what they call you stressors or you are stressors where you're trying to like, good stress. Yeah, like you're just trying to prepare yourself for like, we're shit that happened.

That's what you're getting yourself right. It's like the ice bath, like it's really good for your body, but it's also good for your like dealing with fear of death and freezing the death. So I would do that, that was really helpful. I mean, that put me in the zone like for pretty much the whole campaign and I'd sneak in a hot yoga here or there. When you're running for Senate in Ohio,

do you like not want to see have anybody know or notice that you're doing a lot of deep breathing in hot yoga? I know you've been out in public about your meditation, have it for a while, but I imagine in a race like the one in which you were locked, you don't want to foreground that stuff. Yeah, and not really. I mean, I wouldn't foreground like, hey, I do kettlebells, hey, I do. You know, like people don't want to hear about you. You're there to talk about them and their needs and everything else.

If people would ask me, I'd flat out tell them, you know, that I do it and it helps me. But then there were almost at every event. Somebody would come up and say, hey, I read your book or hey, you know, I practice meditation. It was pretty cool. I mean, it's out there still, especially, you know, in Ohio, not to the extent we probably need it to be, but there are people out there that are interested in it. You talked about five or six minutes of this deep breathing. Would you then, if you had time, sit and do some traditional mindfulness meditation?

Yeah, that was the beginning, and then I try to do 10 or 15 minutes. Depending on the day, like some days you could sit there for 20 minutes, because you're in between events, and there's nothing to do, and I'm like, I'm not telling you, but I don't know anything to do right now. I'm going to like just be. So that really, to me, is preparing to drop in, you know, the breath is the preparation to 100%. I mean, I just honestly, like, I don't really meditate anymore without some serious, deep breathing beforehand.

It just drops you in. I mean, I feel like it saves you. Like, you could meditate for 45 minutes in my mind, and this is, I'm sure people be critical, but I feel like I could do five to six to seven minutes or really deep breathing and get like a 10 minute meditation after that and be like in the same spot I would be if I did before 45 minute meditation. This is interesting to me personally, because I had a guest on a couple of years ago who was talking about deep breathing as a very complimentary practice, especially at the beginning of a mindfulness meditation

session. And I think he was talking about straw breathing. So, you breathe in as deeply as you can through your nose and you breathe out through your mouth, but as if you're breathing through a straw. And so I do 5, 6, 7 of those before I sit. Dude, you're going to die. So what friend of mine is going to be this, you're going to die. I mean, we're not telling me this. We're not on TV, but this guy friend of mine sent me this and it's like, I don't know if

it's titanium or what, you can make it through the airport with it, but this is for your out breath. Oh, so that's strawberry. That is, that's a very sophisticated straw. I word around my neck and this has become a family joke, by the way. So this is just a little chain with a little half a straw that's titanium or something. I don't know what it is, but like the family joke now, because of my wife, my daughter, somebody will be there. We'll start talking about something like stressful going on in somebody's life. And I just pulled this out right in the island in the kitchen.

I'm like, everyone just starts laughing and becomes a not good-a-lice breaker. But there works, don't they? I mean, that's a good little... It does, yeah, that's a good little thing. But what you're making me think is that I should do more of it. I usually do it made a minute or two, but perhaps I could really go for it and do five, six minutes.

Because people who listen to the show, they may not meditate at all, or maybe they're telling themselves a story about how they're shitty meditators and only doing it once in a while. Well, you're not a real meditator if they don't have that story. Well, I'm not exactly exactly perfect. I'm going to use that after that. For me, if I'm going for a longer sit, which I hope to do daily, the first 15, 20 minutes, you're clearing out the garbage before there's some level of stability.

And I think what I'm hearing you say is actually, if you can do this breathing for a couple of minutes, this deep breathing, you drop in to use your terminology quicker. Yeah, 100%. And I learn this through doing work with veterans. And the Art of Living Foundation has a program called Project Welcome Home Troops.

And they get veterans who have a lot of trauma. And those vets can't really sit there. They're not going to sit in the seat coming home with like real trauma and like figure it out. So they go through a series of deep breathing techniques. Like I've been through the workshop. They have three day, five day, whatever. And you spend two or three hours a day and you start just doing the deep breathing techniques. Like I've been through the workshop. They have three day, five day, whatever. And you spend two or three hours a day and you start just doing the deep breathing through the power breath workshop. And that's, you know, you pull your hands out into the nose like 30 times slow, 30 times medium, 30 times fast. And then they settle in. And I've seen these vets go through this five days later, Dan, they're like, I don't want to say they're healed, but they're like 80% of the way there.

They've processed the trauma. And I said, shit, what am I, like, screwing around for? Because I'd sit there for 15 minutes, like your mind's going nuts, you're talking yourself, right? I got a conference call going on in your head and zoom meeting. But you do this breathing and I don't know if it's, I'm not think part of it's gotta be physiological, but it's also like one, two, three. So you're counting.

Yes, so you're getting your mind kind of focused. I think that's part of it too. And then your nervous system, per sympathetic and all that stuff that you've talked about, like you just settle, and then boom, then like 10, 15 minutes goes a long way after that. So you're doing

your practice in the midst of the early burly of a campaign. I'm wondering what is the hardest psychological dynamic for you when you're locked in this kind of competition with another candidate? Is it managing maybe your personal feelings about the other person. Is it being attacked? What it's like to be attacked with not only by your opponent, but also by your opponent's allies and all this money that's pouring into the state to dismantle you, is it fear of losing or is it all of it?

Am I naming all the triggers? Yeah, pretty much all of the above. And I mean, part of it was like I wasn't getting any help from Democrats either. So I'm like, I'm in this big fight. I'm got this guy on the ropes. I can't get Democrats in DC to pay attention. So like a abandoned minute. But it wasn't quite that bad. But yeah, all the stuff, you know, and the Senate was hanging in the balance. So it was like a lot of like, man, we could either go with the insurrectionists or go with

whatever. And you're going to like determine that one was, but I we could either go with the insurrectionists or go with whatever. And you're going to like determine that one was, but I got to tell you, and I think part of this is my athletic background, but a lot of it has just been the meditation, the practice for the last 10 or 15 years. I knew I didn't have any control over that stuff in the last couple of years. I've got been like the stoicism and read all Ryan Holidays books and following on Twitter and Daily Stoic and it's just like you only have control over what you have control over and so I just kept coming back to that and that kept me really in the zone for like the campaign because I just I don't have control of

Chuck Schumer wants to put $50 million in the how I make my case right all I have control over is this stump speech that I'm giving now in front of 150 people in Dayton, Ohio. And am I gonna move them so that they walk out of here and want to campaign for me? Am I touching them emotionally? Can I move them? Only way I can do that is if I'm here.

And so that became a real discipline for me. Like as a personal development, regardless of politics and anything else, I develop more because a human being being in the fire of having to be mentally disciplined and like not given year-ego, not that I didn't, not worry about losing, not worry about winning, not worrying about the outcome, but just being in the moment. And it was tested under fire, but it does sharpen you. Like, you know, you know, I want just being in the moment. And it was tested under fire, but it does sharpen you. Like, you know, you know, I want to be in the present moment. You're like, okay, have a bunch of people come and ask you what stuff and try to stay in the present moment.

And if you can do that, then you're pretty good to go. Yes, I believe it. It's not a scalable piece of advice to run for sentiment away. No, it is not. But it's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. You know, we talked about stoicism and it brought to mind. By the way, I think we're trying to get Ryan Holiday on the show.

Ryan Holiday, just for people who are not familiar with him. He has a newsletter and a social media feed called The Daily Stoic and he's written a bunch of books about stoicism. So, hello, Ryan. The quote that was coming to mind for me was actually not from a stoic philosopher but from a fellow political years ago, I heard David Axelrod, who ran Obama's campaigns and worked in the White House now as CNN,

contributor and a podcaster. I was in an off the record, briefing with him in 2012, and somebody was asking him like, how do you manage the stress of running the re-elect for Barack Obama? And he said, all we can do is everything we can do. And I thought that was perfect. You do everything you can do, and that's all you can do. That's all you can do. Yeah. I mean, in his, he's his endmaster, you know, I did a couple days at his institute in January and went to Bulls Game with them, which

is one of those weird things that happened in your life. You're like, I'm going to Chicago Bulls Game with David Axel, but what happened? I don't know how this happened. But he's a totals end master and that's it. I think anybody you see performing at that level running a presidential campaign, running for president, Tom Brady, Steph Curry the other night, LeBron last night, whatever. They're not worried about the fans cheering or not cheering or winning. They're in the moment and if you're not doing that, you're not functioning at the highest

level. And there's a lot about trash talking and stuff and we're kind of the same age. So I periodically for like just kind of mind candy. I'll go back and I'll watch stuff about Larry Bird or like guys I grew up watching. And there was all this trash talk in that bird. They said he was the worst trash talker in the history of the NBA. And it would be like John Sally and it would be like Michael Cooper,

all these guys, like he says the worst. He's the worst. It was a strategy. He'd get in your head. And he figured like if you're not mentally disciplined enough to handle my shit talking to you, then I'm going to get the edge. And so what do you think people are screaming at Tom Brady, you know, across the line? Of course, does he listen? Probably not. You know, just to kind of transfer this

to the next step. So I'm out of office and when you're home with your kid, when your spouse is talking to you, when you're working on something else, are you able to then transfer from the battle to a calmer, more contented style of living than on a campaign bus in the middle of a campaign? To go from mortal combat to playing with your son or just working out domestic issues with your wife, that strikes me as a very difficult transition. It is.

That's my wife. That's my wife. Where are you at, Tim? I'm like, I'm right here. Yeah, no, because you're in the combat, so your adrenaline's up and you're more easy to focus, but that's kind of the trick. And so like, I tell myself, if you could do it during the campaign, you should offer that to your family and the work you're doing now. Coming up, Tim Ryan talks about what it's like to be outside of the DC fish bowl,

the freedom that comes from not living under a microscope, and the kid's basketball game that made him realize that his life had truly changed. So the campaign didn't go the way you wanted it to. How did you handle that? For real. I know you gave gracious concession speech and you gave quite a rousing farewell speech on the floor of the house as you ended, maybe your last term who knows that's really up to you and the voters, the, I don't wanna make that an ass. I feel both.

They do have a say. Yes. So you gave these great speeches, really great speeches and I'm wondering how much you're willing to reveal but how it went down for you internally to have the race not go your way. Stages of grief that honestly happened from the time I started realizing it wasn't going to work out that night, you know, to huddling up with my campaign manager, my media guy, Steve Schmitz, a buddy of mine. He was there on election night, it had campaigned with me,

who did McCain's campaign and he's on TV and whatever. But we were there and like, it was like, shit. Like shit. You know, I said, the F word about five times in a row out in the parking lot outside with my nephew. And it was just like shit and then you got

a call, your opponent, and you know the guy you've been wrestling with, but again, like from a sports perspective, you got to go shake the guy's hand, like the game's over, he won. And Steve said to me, he said one thing, he said, do your duty. He said, do your duty. He said, this is an honor that you even can run. And it's good to do your duty. And that's when I went out and gave the speech. And then nobody, like, my staff had a speech. I didn't even read it. It was just like off the cuff, but it was all like, do your duty. I'm grateful. I'm thankful, you know, and we all should be. And really, you know, and you, you'll understand this as a dad too, like our two older kids were there,

and then my eight-year-old was there, Brady was there. And he was just so upset. You know, it's like, dad, you're not anything anymore. You're not a congressman. You're not a senator. I'm like, hold on buddy. I'm like, I'm your dad still. I'm really your mom's husband. But I said to myself, I have to show these kids more than anybody else in the world about how to handle the democracies and none of that stuff. But this will be the moment that my kids will see me facing adversity probably more so than anywhere else because you block your kids from a lot of the stuff that you're dealing with bills or death or whatever you can keep from, couldn't keep them from this.

And so I wanted to make sure that I handled myself in a way that if I walked out of that venue and got hit by a bus, that these kids would have a lesson that my dad, when the chips were down, he handled himself with some class. And that's what really held me keep my stuff together up there, because Brady was standing right there looking at me. And I could see him out of the corner of my eye. And so trying to meet that moment really, you know, I ended up, I was really proud of how I handled it, but not because it was what our country needed to hear. It was because my kids needed to hear and see.

Well, I was proud of you for both, honestly. I do want to go back to Brady because my sons are younger than yours, but kids of this age actually probably kids at any age have this knack of saying shit to their parents that is deliberately or not totally devastating. Totally accurate, you know. That's the problem. It's a matter of so bad. I was talking to my son and I said, made someone knowing joke and he looked at me, he said, I don't know how I've survived seven years of you. Oh, God. That was laughing, but it's just like, he was kidding, but it's still, it's like, wow, really, well, beautiful.

But what Brady said was you're not anything anymore. You're not a Congressman, you're not a Senator. And here you are. I'm sitting with you in LA right now and you don't have staff with you thinking about how you're going to vote on the next bill. That stuff has at least for now gone away. So that's an identity issue. I don't know if it's an identity crisis.

How are you doing with that? Really good, honestly. And just kind of continue the joke like Brady was teasing me. I don't know, a month or two ago, he says, you're not even famous anymore. Oh my god. He says, so my wife starts laughing and we were traveling. I can't remember where we were. So we'd leave wherever we were and we go to the airport.

And you know, it was a big campaign, national coverage, all this. So we went the airport, Florida, wherever we were. Somebody comes up, oh, Congressman Ryan, you ran a great race. I love you, blah, blah, blah. And I just look at Brady. And he looks at me and he starts shaking his head. And he says, wow, you're a little bit famous. Thank you for the sounds like this.

So now anytime we're together, you know, you can get an answer to anytime we're together and someone comes up to me, I just look at them. That's still a little bit famous. But really good, it was weird because I spent my 30s and 40s in Congress and elected office running every two years serving the public, responsive to the public. And then after the election, there was some panic of how you're gonna make a living because on January 3rd, you don't get paid anymore

and you still got a mortgage and demands. And so that was a little bit of the anxiety. I have this back issue that only flares up when I'm in stressful situations. So my back start, I'm like, this is just me worrying about how I'm gonna feed my family and kids and all situation. So my back start by like, this is just like me worrying about like how I'm gonna feed my family and kids and all that. And it didn't take long for me to pick up some stuff. But I started to realize like I'm free.

So I kind of got back into like Joseph Campbell, who was a huge influence on me growing up. And I would periodically, every few years, go back and watch the power of meth with Bill Moyers, like great stuff. Means more to me today than it did 20 years ago. And he has a saying, he says, you got to let go of the life you had planned in order to have the life that's meant for you. Did he write that for me? Did he write that for a 20 year congressman who lost a center race? And so it was like, okay, you can't judge because how many times you go

through your life and you're like, that thing that hurts so bad or you thought was the end, ended up being the beginning and ended up opening you up to all these new things. And so now, I'm really enjoying my freedom. So I went down to this is just like a stupid example, but I was in Florida the other day and I was talking at a conference and there was like four hours between me speaking and the dinner I had planned. Packed my bathing suit, right? So I, you know, go. I'm swimming in the ocean. And I thought to myself, if I was a member of Congress, I'd probably wouldn't have done

this because someone's going to get a picture of me swimming in the ocean in a bathing suit and aren't you supposed to be serving me in Congress, you know, like you can't take a vacation or anything like that. I'm swimming in the ocean. I was like, dang, that's pretty cool. I don't have to worry about that. Should anymore, like I can swim in the ocean when I want, when I'm like right by it, you know.

And it's just those little things like that, you know, I picked a kid up from school, go to his practices, you'll laugh at this, so he plays eight-year-old basketball. This is about three weeks after the election. Swing election, big thing, debates, warrant peace, blah, blah, blah, you know, high profile. And about three weeks later, I'm coaching his eight-year-old basketball team. And I'm sitting on the bench and I'm like deputy assistant to the assistant to the assistant of the basketball team. But I'm on the bench and I'm like deputy assistant to the assistant to the assistant of the basketball team. But I'm on the bench and I'm sitting there, my buddy reminds of head coach. And for some reason, there's a bunch of bad calls,

which is like bumper cars out there. It's like eight year old basketball, right? So he gets up and he starts walking on the court and starts screaming at the referee. And I'm just sitting here like I am, now I'm just like my hands are folded, my legs are crammed, just watching this whole thing. And he's going nuts.

He gets a technical. The athletic director of the league, this is not eighth grade, this is eight year old. Athletic director of the league walks over. And he's in her face now, and she tells him to sit down, he can't stand up, and he comes down, he sits next to me, and I'm thinking to myself, my life has changed a lot.

It's like three weeks. I gotta calm this guy down, like sits next to me, and I'm thinking to myself, my life has changed a lot. It's like three weeks. I've got a calmness got down like dude, we're good. But it's like those kind of things you're like, this is great. This is great. You said to me before we started rolling, you feel like you made a jailbreak. Yeah, and I joke about it. Like it's a jailbreak, I escaped the hostage situation. It's a grind.

I mean, it's a 24 hour day, seven-day week that I've did for 22 years. So there's a certain amount of freedom that you feel, and it doesn't mean to disrespect the job or the institution. It was an honor, and I loved every minute of it, but there's a point of liberation. Psychologically, you can't get because you're always, I mean, I was doing a writing retreat with Barry Boyce, who on my second book, I think was my second book, and we're in upstate New York, a friend of his house, and we were doing a writing retreat to write the book. My staff calls the house. I'm like, what? Like Osama Bin Laden was killed last night. I mean, we had to go after him this week, but it was like, that's the level of like, you can't, there's no, there's no breaking free. You know, you hear a lot of presidents talk about that. You're in a,

you know, a bill played a jail. Unremitting, I can imagine. Well, the president sees just for sure, out of, you know, insane, but even being a member of Congress, I was a local news reporter in Maine on the day that Bill Cohen served his last day and sent it. And he said to me that what he's going to miss is that he's felt like he spent the last whatever, 18 years, I think it was with his finger and a socket and a good like, you know, it's like that level of crackle and energy. Totally. You're connected to the big events of the day.

I can see how it would be exhausting and exhilarating at the same time. But let me ask you, and this is the least surprising thing I'm going to ask you, which is, do you have thoughts about whether you might want to jump back in the game at some time, or you just like, I can't, it's too early. Yeah, maybe one day, not anytime soon, like maybe one day, you know, I may have one more run left in me if the right race at the right time would have the right impact, because that to me was what it was all about. How do you have impact?

How do you make a difference? I always saw the job as trying to serve the public, but lead the public with the ideas that, we've talked about writing a book on mindfulness meditation was not, what a lot of people do, and why did I do it? Because in my experience, that is what can solve the problem. I like that part of the public policy. Let's talk about these ideas. The

system right now is not really aligned with new ideas. There's not really new ideas coming out of really either political party at this point. You talk about like Silas Ivan for healing trauma. You're talking about cannabinoids for healing all kinds of different things. You're talking about regenerative agriculture, sequester carbon, and grow healthy food. You know, all of these things, like, did not really part of the conversation in the panel I did this morning here at Milkin on men and boys. Like, we've got a crisis with men and boys, but it's like, well, why are you talking about boys and not girls? So, wait, hold on. We can talk about both, and actually helping boys and men is actually probably really good for girls and women too. Like, I have a daughter. I want to make sure that

there's men out there that know how to behave and earn living and treat her well and all of that. But the nuance that it takes to like have these really informed and adult conversations to really solve our problems not happening right now. And so I don't miss that part of it like banging your head against the wall. No, people should do deep breathing instead of get on prescription drugs. Like maybe we should start there. Maybe you do need prescription drugs, but maybe you don't. If you try to any of this other stuff that's free, we should start there. Maybe you're doing prescription drugs, but maybe you don't. If you try to any of this other stuff, that's free. So I don't miss that. But if the opportunity at some point presented itself and I owe my family a big, it's been 10 years me and my wife

have been married. And she spent that entire time with two kids and three kids and two dogs and three dogs. And me, you know, a ran against Nancy Pelosi, ran for president, had a tough reelect in 2020, and then ran for Senate in 2022. And she's like, yeah, what do you think about taking a break? I think, yeah. I owe you. Coming up, Tim talks about what the rough intumble

of politics has taught him about dealing with difficult people, something you can imagine you might struggle with as well. Let me ask a macro question. We made a brief illusions earlier to managing what I would imagine to be some level of personal antipathy toward your opponent as you're running in this last race, your opponent was JD Vance, who is now a US Senator from Ohio, many, if not most of us, deal with a certain amount of personal antipathy toward people with whom we disagree in an extremely polarized country right now. It's not as heightened probably as it is when you're running for Senate against an individual from the other party

But no matter where you sit for most of us, it's hard to deal with the people we disagree with So what advice do you have given that you've been through the crucible here on managing that? It's hard. I for the most part was able to not be personal not feel personal animosity to not be personal, not feel personal animosity towards my opponent. I mean, it creeps in and it's there and I'm not going to lie about it. But for the most part, I feel like I kept it in check because it doesn't really get you anywhere. Now, it didn't prevent me from making the argument. Like you could make a dispassionate argument about why I'm better or why they're X, Y,

or Z or why he's wrong and all of that stuff. And you don't need to pull any punches, you know, I debated, I'm face to face and called them out. I said to his face what I would say in my public speeches, I didn't pull any punches with them. And I would tell him, I was like, nothing personal but, like, you know, x, y, or z. like nothing personal but like, you know, X, Y, R, Z. And I think being able to do that, it's a little easier, honestly, like in this environment, because I'd see him in two or three debates, right? Now, some of the people you're talking about, you may see him at work every day. That's more difficult than even running for the Senate. Now, you have to do it in cameras and public and have the stones to call people out in front of the world.

And that's not easy either, but day to day, it's a little more tricky. It comes in a lot of foul tasting flavors because there may be somebody to do. Office is really difficult to deal with. There may be somebody in your family who's really difficult to deal with who you're seeing on a day to day basis. But it may also just be disconnected names and potentially not even accurate the avatar pictures that you're dealing with on social media or it could be somebody you're seeing on TV or could be a political figure shows up on the news. And we're walking around in this era of tribal toxicity with I think a lot of us are and tip of the toward these other people in this is born out in the poll You see in the surveys, people are like not cool with their children marrying somebody from the other party and things like that. And so, I have a few thoughts on this, but all of this is hard to manage,

no matter what level we're talking about. Yeah, no, it's difficult. And I don't know if it's gonna get any better in the near term with an election coming up. But, you know, again, this is why your podcast, the work you're doing, all of this stuff happening underneath the radar is really important and needs to grow. Your audience needs to double. The art of living community needs to double. John Kabat's

in-world needs to double. Rochie Jones, all of these teachers out there that are doing, we have to cultivate that and continue to try to grow that. That's a little more of a long-term play than a short-term fix. And part of what I would like to do a little bit post-congress is, how do we build and unite these people, the yoga community, the body practice community, the breathwork community, the psilocybin community, like all of these different things are all trying to do the same thing, they're trying to heal trauma, which starts with an acknowledgement that there's trauma. And I think, be helpful, I think for people to look at this person, you want to strangle and say, maybe some trauma there,

you know, maybe I need to be a little bit more compassionate. Again, what do you have control over? Do you have control over them being an asshole? Or do you have control over your response to them being an asshole? The only thing you got control over is that, you know, and if you don't realize it, then it's just going to keep going. And I just think staying off of social media, not watching the news, not to be not being informed. You could check a couple articles out, keep yourself in the loop, but your blood pressure will go down. Take a week, do it in immediate detox. I want to say some of this back to you because I think you've just given us a really important

recipe, you know, for how to stay sane in turbulent tribal times, especially as we're essentially in a presidential election right now, and it's only going to get more intense. What I'm hearing you say, and this is what I would say, is that it is possible, actually, it's really helpful to you to have compassion for people you find odious. And compassion does not mean you cosine on their bad ideas. Compassion does not mean you invite them over for dinner. Compassion does not mean you don't speak out forcefully or volunteer or take firm action. It just means you're not burdened and blinded by rage in the midst of that process. Am I in the zone?

100%. I mean, that's the boot of hating someone's like drinking poison and hope it kills the other person. Man, that's just as true today, especially in this environment, as it ever has been. You can't hate somebody and think that you're going to be okay with that. You still have anxiety. You still hold that in your body. And if you don't realize that, you know, you're missing out on the opportunity to try to bring about some healing. And again, we got a heal, you know, Joseph Campbell is just rewatching one of his episodes and it was like he was saying like, people think they want to change

the world by shifting it around. And he says, you change the world by coming alive. One vital person vitalizes. And that's how you change the world. You come alive. So you being in this fight with this odious person, it's not going to get us anywhere. You being more compassionate adds to the compassion in the world. You being more sane adds to more sanity in the world. And so you've elevated the whole thing by not doing the average act you do the radical. As John Cavitz then used to say, I remember the first retreat I went on. He said, this sitting here is a radical act. You know, the world's going nuts. And so sitting and being quiet, you want to be a radical,

that's being a radical. I loved it. I was like, that resonated with me at the point where 15 years later, I still remember it. You know, we need a bunch of radicals. And what's different than what's going on in the world, it's a bunch of noise, we need silence. A bunch of anxiety and fighting, you bring calm. But again, it's not like you can't get in the fight or have an argument. It's not like put your sword down and just give up. I used to joke on the campaign show all the time.

As an Irish guy said, the old Irish saying, is this a private fighter? Can anyone get into it? And it's like, I don't mind that part of it. That's kind of the like, the back and forth. I like that. But without the hate, without the, all the other, yes, accoutrements.

Yes. Another thing you said while giving us a recipe for being little nodes of sanity in the midst of this, you know, howling sea of tribalism and mistrust and misinformation. you said while giving us a recipe for being little nodes of sanity in the midst of this, you know, howling sea of tribalism and mistrust and misinformation, what other thing you said that I think is really helpful. And I just want to hang a lantern on it here is that perfection is not on offer. Like you described yourself as being, you know, generally able to not fall victim to personal

animals. But yeah, there were a few times where I did have to have 100%. So we don't need to be monks here. And even monks grew up, but we don't have to be perfectly enlightened beings, we just do our best. Right, do the best you can. It's just like we were teasing about meditators. I'm a terrible meditator.

It's like, well, yeah, that's going to be one of the first 435 thoughts you have in your head when you start meditating. Like, I'm really bad at this. And then you learn how to let that stuff go. And that's why this practice is so foundational to us moving into a new era of the country is because you have the thoughts,

I wanna choke this guy, they're so wrong, they're bad people, and some instances they are probably definitely wrong, and probably definitely bad people. But like, now you're engaged with them, you know? I went on, I went to a retreat with Silvia Borstein and it was a loving kindness retreat. This is many, many, many years ago. And she said something that really stuck with me

and she said, when you're in a fight with somebody, you're in a fight. Like, don't be in a fight. Why in a fight? Don't get in a fight, you know? You're in a fight, you're in a fight. Like, don't be in a fight. Why in a fight? Don't get in a fight. You know? When you're in a fight, you're in a fight. And all that that brings, now I'm now the ego's involved. Now I got to win the fight.

Now I got to do anything I can. Now I got to say bad things about it. And it just goes on and on. Don't get in the fight. You don't have to. Make your points. Take your stand. Go organize.

Go knock on doors. Make your points, take your stand, go organize, go knock on doors, pick your favorite candidate, but do it with a little bit less emotion and a little more calmness and who's persuaded by someone who's losing their fucking mind? You know what I'm saying? Actually, some people are right. The other way, I actually think some people are, unfortunately, in my opinion, now being a little political myself, and I think there are people who are demonstrably losing their mind who appear to have a lot of followers.

Oh yeah. Yeah, well, I guess you're right. Yeah, I guess you're right. I'm wrong. See that? See all this works. That's why I kind of learned something here. But I think when you're talking,

I'm thinking about like the guy at work. Yes, right. In interpersonal I think it's less. Yes. I think the guy you know the guy at work and this like just you're freaking out man. When you're freaking out or you want me to like be with you, you're nuts. You know, but if you're like, obviously some of these guys, Andrew Taden, these other guys who have these huge followings, you man, yeah, I hate to say it, Dan, but you're right. I hate to be at the receiving end of the Twitter app replies after the end of the day. I'm sorry about that. You can delete that out. I haven't seen you in a little while. It's so nice to see you again. Yeah, it's such a pleasure to really just sit here with you. Is there something I should

have asked or some point you would have liked to have had a chance to make that I didn't give you a chance to make. I don't think so. The only thing I would say is, and from my personal experience and others who may be going through something similar, and it was kind of related to the quote that I said with about Campbell, it's like you get into a mode, you get into a career path that is rewarding in all the privileges and, you know, honors

that would come with something like being a member of Congress diast level, but you think that's all you are. Like you identify, I'm sure athletes go through the same thing when they're like I'm an athlete and the people are cheering and then it's over. And it's just like, you got to like figure out how to let this go, you know, Bono talks a lot about surrender, surrender, surrender, a lot of these prayers from the different religions, surrender, surrender. You have to surrender to that to open up all of these new things. And you really have to see the impermanence in the world because nothing's going to last forever.

And like using those as ways to help our kids because we're at the milk and conference and we're talking about all of these different things and we're talking about AI and like all of these changes that are coming that are almost out of our control. So really to be teaching this idea of the only thing that's permanent is impermanence and in trying to model that somewhat and you did it with your career, right? You let that go, you had prestige. You had a

title. You were on TV. You were famous, you know, not so famous anymore. And you were able to gracefully like build this whole other thing, right? And you could look back and you're like, that was just like a stepping stone to like all this great work that you're doing now. And I think there's an element of grace to that. We need because the changes are coming and you see how people, when they don't handle change very well, it gets ugly.

And again, it's not that you don't fight for and try to push for the kind of change you want, but it's gotta be just grace, just a little bit of grace in the world, I think would be the one thing that I would like to encourage people as they're going through some of these tough times that seem tough. There's hope, if you keep at it with a good attitude and you work hard, you get your break. And then you'll look back on that moment of so much angst and be like, dang, that was the pivot to the next life.

You well said, thank you, buddy. You got my vote. I appreciate it. All right, thanks for doing this. Yeah, it was awesome. It was great. Thanks again to Tim. Thanks to you for listening.

I genuinely appreciate you listening. If you want to do me a solid, go leave a rating or a review that actually helps us with the various algorithms that run all of our lives. And finally, I wanna thank most sincerely, the people who work incredibly hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman,

Justine Davy, Lauren Smith, and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer, Marissa Schneidermann is our senior editor, and Kimi Regler is our executive producer. We get our scoring and mixing from Peter Bonaventure over at Ultraviolet Audio and our theme music was written by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. We'll see you all on Monday for a week of deep cut out of the archive episodes with Kristen Neffen-Muffin-Gladwell.

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