Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How To Make a Marriage Work | Chodo Robert Campbell and Koshin Paley Ellison (Co-Interviewed by Dr. Bianca Harris)

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

A candid, useful, and hilarious conversation. Chodo Robert Campbell Sensei is a Zen teacher, bereavement specialist, grief counselor and a recognized leader for those suffering with the complexities of death & dying, aging, and sobriety. The educational non-profit he co-founded, the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, touches thousands of lives every year through its numerous educational programs, contemplative retreats, and Soto Zen Buddhist practices. Chodo has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning and other media outlets.  Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, leader in contemplative care, and co-founder of an educational non-profit called the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. His books, grounded in Buddhist wisdom and practice, have gained national attention. Through its numerous educational programs, contemplative retreats, and Soto Zen Buddhist practices, the New York Zen Center touches thousands of lives every year. Koshin has appeared on dozens of podcasts and his work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning and other media outlets. In this episode we talk about:We get really real on the role of early childhood trauma and how that can show up in our relationshipsThe importance of understanding your partner’s operating manual and how to come up with rules of the roadThe role of humor in relationships—how it can be used to successfully name the difficult parts of our partner’s personality—and how that can go wrongWhy it’s important to do your own work outside of your relationship—in therapy and meditation or whatever is useful to youAnd the value of learning to be uncomfortable… togetherRelated Episodes:How (and Why) to Hug Your Inner Dragons | Richard SchwartzEscape From Zombieland | Koshin Paley EllisonThe Surprising Power of “Healthy Embarrassment” | Koshin Paley EllisonThe Art of Growing Up, Jerry ColonnaJerry Colonna, 'CEO Whisperer' and Reboot.io Founder - Dan HarrisThis Neurobiologist Wants You To Ask One Question To Reframe Anxiety, Depression, And Trauma | Dr. Bruce Perry (Co-Interviewed by Dan's Wife, Bianca!)The Anti-Diet | Evelyn Tribole Sign up for Dan’s newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://meditatehappier.com/podcast/tph/chodo-and-koshin See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. It's the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, everybody. How we doing? Today we've got a candid, raw, insightful, useful, and often hilarious, seriously, genuinely hilarious many, many belly laughs in the course of this conversation.

And it's all about how to maintain a healthy marriage or any other kind of romantic relationship. We thought this was a good episode to drop as Valentine's Day rolls around. You're about to hear me and my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, in conversation with our old and very close friends, Koshan Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell, a pair of married Zen priests. They are, in fact, maybe the happiest couple

I've ever met. Koshen and Chodo run the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, which does many things, including training people to be hospice volunteers. Bianca and I actually took a nine-month course at the Zen Center, where we train to sit with dying people, and by extension, to sit with ourselves. In this conversation, we talk about the role

of early childhood trauma and how that shows up in your intimate relationships, the importance of understanding your partner's operating manual and how to come up with some rules of the road, the role of humor in relationships, how it can be used successfully and unsuccessfully, why it's important to do your own work

outside of your relationship, and the value of learning to get uncomfortable together. Just a few notes before we dive in, it is not a coincidence, as I mentioned earlier, that we're dropping this episode around Valentine's Day. We've also posted a few other episodes in recent days that might be of interest, including a quick solo pod where I sum up some of the lessons

that I have personally learned about how not to torpedo your relationships. Also wanna say there's a quick mention at the top of this episode of somebody named Alexander. We don't explain who Alexander is. He is our son. Just a heads up on that. And finally, I just want to tell you a little bit more about our guests. Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is a Zen teacher, a bereavement specialist, and a grief counselor. And Sensei Koshin Pli Ellison is a Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist and author of several books,

including Wholehearted and Untangle. Before we get to the show, I just wanna mention that the Dump It Here journal that my wife and I created and that sold out double quick, it's back in stock. Just go to danharris.com and click on shop to find it or go to shop.danharris.com. It's a really cool journal. It's pretty non-dogmatic.

There are some instructions at the beginning. The rest of it is an open field for your scribbling. Go check it out, danharris.com, and click on the Shop or go to shop.danharris.com. If you deal with anxiety, you're definitely not alone. The bad news is that it doesn't go away overnight. The good news is that you really can change your relationship to it.

The Happier Meditation app offers a course called Taming Anxiety. Over the course of 10 sessions, meditation teacher Leslie Booker and anxiety expert Dr. Luana Marquez guide you through strategies to cope with challenging situations, break free from anxiety loops and build mindfulness, compassion and bravery. To start the Taming Anxiety Course,

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Just go to indeed.com slash wonder ECA right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash wonder ECA. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Hi guys, thanks for doing this. Oh, good to see you.

Good to see you. Any of you, any of the three of you have any questions or concerns or anything you want to throw out now? Yes, my question is when we're gonna hang out and actually share a meal. I love that question. And Bianca, queen of our schedule, I will put all responsibility for that on you.

Beautiful. That's fine. I used to resent that actually, but then you started making plans without me recently and they were all wrong. So I will take it back. Yeah, we're married in the same person. He's constantly making plans for dinner or for whatever. He says, oh, we're having dinner tomorrow night. Like, who are you having dinner with? We're having dinner with Scott. I'm like, no, I didn't agree to that. And then he says, oh God, I don't want to, you know, I can't counsel. I feel guilty. I answer,

well, this is a unilateral decision, it's a unilateral cancellation. And then I realize, it's good for you. Yeah. The terminology we use around this house is MP and YP. YP is your problem. How many things in the house do you think are my problem? In fact, Alexander has started to use the YP and I don't like it.

To you? Yes. But what I want to know from you, Chodo, for inspiration really, is are you countering Koshin's plan making on principle or because the date truly doesn't work? Just to be custard most of the time. Yeah. It's called oppositional defiance disorder.

Koshin likes to term it that way. Usually it's because I haven't been consulted. For me, any kind of surprise, any change for me personally, given my background, my childhood stuff, it's like, if you're gonna change something, let me know or ask me first, because I can't take, no, it's hard to start the word. It's really triggering for me.

So suddenly it's a surprise, oh, we're doing this. Oh, this has changed. Or we're gonna do so and so and so and so. I'm like, well, I need to know these things up front. You can't just bring something on me. So interesting because it's even with people that he, as you both know, that someone that he actually likes, which is not, you know, a huge circle. So it's just, it's, it's interesting. Very small. So it's just, it's interesting.

Very small. Let's just say agency and consultation are important to you. Very important for me. I think it's actually, I think it's probably more to do with agency. And it's not about being in control. It's about being partnered with. Let's have a, let's just. And maybe a touch of things. instead of being partnered with. And maybe a touch of things. Well, I ran most things in control,

but I think it's about no respect for me. That's like, hey, maybe I don't wanna do that. I was just gonna say, use the word partnership. And I remember early on in our marriage, Dan used to just automatically forward things to me, but CCing the person who is requesting a date or something, and he would say, Bianca is gonna deal with it. And it took me a really long time,

and still today sometimes I have to remind myself that most of the time this is coming from a place of generosity and partnership, but because of the space that I came from, it has felt, and I don't think it does as much anymore, and now proof is in the pudding that he shouldn't be planning things, but it was more like I don't have time to deal with it, here you go, your time is less valuable than mine. So that lack of even choice on an email or a text where somebody else is already there with the expectation felt a little bit, it felt like a very,

very minor kind of assault where I had no choice in the matter. But I do understand more after many years of marriage that where he came from as a child of an intact family and he has said this is me inviting you in and being a team and that is not a natural instinct for me at all. I think Koshien is very much the same. He does it from a place of inviting me in and bits of love and yet it doesn't come across that way to me but it is that it is coming from that place and yet for me it's like it has to do with I think part two don't do anything lovingly toward don't do anything loving for me what's the payback oh that's interesting yeah yeah

that puts quotient in a really tricky position because if he wants to do something spontaneous and generous and loving for you You're gonna view it with suspicion Yeah, welcome Yes, it is very tricky so I'm also like so aware of that that it's like you know trying to figure out what would be nourishing and knowing that there are some steps and a lot, as we call it actually, really affectionately,

like the rules, there's a lot of rules and like how to do things. And so sometimes I wanna do something spontaneous and that's when we get into trouble. Sometimes, sometimes. What are the rules? Seek permission. No.

I know. Yeah. The rules aside. Yeah. It's to ask, to ask me if I would like to do this. Like super explicit, like, or thinking about seeing this person or doing this thing on this day, how do you feel about that? Or I've made a reservation for really.

Why? Gets tricky. The rules have kept us together for 23 years, so they're not that stringent. That's that. Right. And we can laugh about it too. Like when like there's an impasse and like he'll get angry and then we can be like, oh, the rules.

We forgot the rules. Right. Whiplash Willie can go. And we remember Whiplash Willie shows up and. Yeah. Wait, wait. Who's Whiplash Willie? Whiplash Willie is. one of my many characters.

Looks like Chodo. Sometimes after he says something, you're like, oh, my neck. I'm just like, you're just blindsided by that energy. And so the beauty is actually just calling it. So I say to him, so Whiplash Willie, glad to see you. And when Chodo's ready, I'd love to talk to him about this. And we can participate later because we feel like to actually having a sense of

humor in our relationship has been incredibly important. And because things are tough, and sometimes we get upset and we get uncomfortable. And I think it allows us to be real and loving and stay in relationship when things are tricky. I have a million follow-ups, but I'm feeling a little protective of Chodo here because we're talking about all these rules

and how he's whiplash Willie, and I know you also sometimes call him negative Nigel. And it's like you're talking to him like you're performing an exorcism. You know, like, and there are good reasons here. So Chodo, can you just describe a little bit, to the extent that you're comfortable with it, and exorcism, you know, like, and there are good reasons here. So Chodo, can you just describe a little bit, to the extent that you're comfortable with it,

can you describe a little bit of your childhood so people understand the derivation of all this? So I immediately go back to, you know, four or five years of age where, you know, a single mother, 17 years of age when she had me, so she had no role models. She was kind of a wild woman, wild child. So there was always a string of different fellows

in her life and she had a predilection for violent alcoholics, even at 17. So there was never, and I never felt safe. I never felt in control because she was never in control. Well, she was in control, but in a very unhealthy control way. So there's always this fear of what's going to come next, where are we going to be living next, who are we going to be with next, are we going to have a home to go to next? So this little kid was like, a mom would disappear for weeks on end. She would go out to find a job

and I would be living with my aunt. And she would be, you know, I'll see you tonight. And then she came back weeks later. So it was never really knowing. So I have to know what's happening. Where are you going? When you're coming home and yeah, I mean that's really where it began, a real deep-seated fear of not being taken care of, included and feeling safe.

Yeah, sorry. So I mean, you know, mom coming home with a different person, a different man, every once in a while it's like, who are we having dinner with tonight? Who is this person? You know, I don't know, you know, it's like. And they were dangerous. And they were, yeah, hugely dangerous. I appreciate you talking about that.

I wanna say it's not out yet. I don't know when it'll be out, but Chodo's been working on a memoir. I've read talking about that. I wanna say it's not out yet. I don't know when it'll be out, but Chodo's been working on a memoir. I've read parts of it. It's absolutely beautiful and harrowing. And so there's a lot more to this story, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm glad you said it because it really does

put the rules in perspective. And it's amazing you can have a sense of humor about it, but these rules come from a real place. Yeah, absolutely, no question. Sometimes it's so real. I mean, it's like my whole body can just freeze. It can be something so simple, you know, as a reservation. Why didn't you tell me?

Who is this? Why are we doing this? For a Christmas gift, a holiday gift, Koshin bought tickets to go see Modi, this wonderful, wonderful Jewish comedian at the Beacon Theater. And he gave me the tickets. I'm like, this is great, but no.

He didn't tell me this was gonna be happening. And I suddenly feel like I've been ambushed. And it's so fleeting. it happens in just a split second and then I say oh so sorry thank you it's just I really I really like this guy I really appreciate it and I think if coach were to say listen I got us tickets for something you really like that you really appreciate and here they are but it's when it's kind of given I don't trust I don't trust gifts, basically. What are you giving me?

I need to know, what are you giving to me? I don't trust it. But also it's sometimes it takes you a minute. Like you have the reaction. And then to me, it's like your practice allows you to like almost in a couple of breaths to like come back and be like, oh right, I love this guy and we're gonna have so much fun, which we didn't do.

But I think it's sometimes what I experienced in the relationship is that sometimes it's learning to have a loving attitude for me to realize like, when I was even handing it to him, I was like, oh boy, and just having to realize that that will come and then they'll be awake after the wave and I will be able to actually enjoy it. But it's a process that to me has been an important part of loving each other.

Yeah. What I'm hearing here and Bianca, I think this kind of reminds me of our interview that we did with Bruce Perry, who's this incredible psychotherapist and I think neuroscientist as well. Bianca will correct me on that, but he wrote a book, he wrote it with Oprah and the basic thesis was,

we're asking the wrong question in relationships, romantic or otherwise. Often we ask, what's the matter with you? And instead we should be asking what happened to you? So like understanding your partner's shit, you understanding their black bag. I know that's a term that you caution use a lot in your teaching, it's from a poet who talks

about how we're all carrying around an invisible black bag of our past traumas. And unless you can kind of see the other person's black bag, the ride's gonna be bumpy no matter what. But if you're not dealing with the bag, you're in trouble. Anyway, Bianca, does that all sound right to you given our past history meritably and editorially? Yeah, I have so many things

sort of going through my mind right now. One of which I should just say, not directly going through my mind right now, one of which, I should just say, not directly related to what Dan is asking, that I just felt very overcome by emotion just loving you guys and Chodo, just feeling what, as much as I've heard your stories over and over and I look forward to hearing them again and again, it still feels so raw and fresh every time. And you know, to the extent that I can relate even in the smallest, smallest way. I just love you so much and can't believe what you've been through and so grateful for what you put out there. Both of you, of course.

And along those lines, I was wondering, as far as the rules go, because we haven't had that conversation even though we know a lot about each other. And my past may have more sort of highlights, but I think some of the lowlights from Dan's past are sort of coming out a little more slowly. And it's not like in any given scenario scenario you're holding those black bags equally for each other because you're having your own experience. And so I'm just wondering at what point in your relationship did the rules get established? Was it after, you know, a long period of trial and error and then being like, oh, okay, wait, this is what we understand about us, here's how we should go forward?

Or were you just sort of that together psychologically and emotionally early on to say, Chota, like, this is what I'm about, this is what I need if you want to be with me, how you know you need those things and how you adapt them over time. I think in the beginning you must have got a sense of the fact that I needed rules, that I needed to feel safe, also to emotional support. And yet it was very difficult to receive. And I think you knew that. You must have known that in the very beginning because I tend to be an open book. I lay my shit out on the floor and say, here it is, this is who I am. And I think you knew that you must have known that in the very beginning because I tend to be an open book And really lay my shit out on once they hear it is this is who I am And I think you know probably in the beginning of the relationship. It wasn't so

Slowly slowly slowly you can answer the question, but for me I would say it was like Like a little carrot, but what was your experience now? I think that It'd be like a little carat. But what was your experience? No, I think that from the very beginning, I was very aware and also drawn to you, of course. And so entranced and delighted by your complexity. And also like there were parts of you that were, to me, like your level of anger was, as you know,

it was actually terrifying to me. And it would scare the crap out of me. And I had a hard time understanding that it didn't have to do with me. We just get really angry about things. But I think at the same time, like as we were getting to know each other, you wanted to, as you tried before we buy,

You wanted to, as you held it, try before we buy. And I said, no, no, no, no. You have to make a decision that you actually wanna be with me because I was actually so clear that this was like a real thing. And Chota was in another situation. So I was like, you have to say he was married. And I was like, he was married six months.

So I said, can I try before I buy? Cause this might be graduation or whatever. He's like, mm-hmm. And my grandmother too was like, don't do that. Cause otherwise you'll always be with someone who did that. And I feel like in so many ways, like that was a really important part of the beginning of forging of our relationship to say like, what are we doing? And what are we willing to do? And we were both willing to make big sacrifices, which I think we often do unconsciously.

But I feel like we both had done a lot of work psychologically on ourselves. And we were both, you know, as pretty steady practitioners. And I think all of those things helped enormous amounts. So that when we encountered things like needing rules, it was actually helpful. And we both could understand because I also come from a background with lots of trauma too, not the same, but just my own version. And so I think that I was also able to appreciate the rattle tenderness that he experiences and the need for protection. So, because I also needed to, and I think that we're always trying to learn how to support each other in that, which is, you know, a road.

I think we should also say that I'm very loving and very generous. They are open and heartwarming, caring, which comes from a place of deprivation in so many ways as a child. I'm very, very generous and very loving and very caring. You know, and I show them my food and my gifts. So I really think about Koshin and what she brings to me and how can I repay him in ways that are not always physically intimate.

You know, it's like, I can show my love by giving you this. I can show my love by doing this. But sometimes around physical intimacy there's still that kind of fear and on occasion, right? That was a kiss for you listeners. And I would add to your, in terms of your generosity, Chodo, like also creating a beautiful space, you're super into flowers and design.

And so it's not just food. It's all inclusive. Yeah. So I think that it's also really learning how to respect one another is a rare thing. To me, one of the most important parts of our relationship is our love and shared heart and appreciation. We're so different in so many ways, and yet we share this, I think, a kindness and a love for each other and for others that feels the most important thing and it feels rare and it feels devotional and spacious at the same time to me.

KS 2 Wounded Warriors. CB Yeah. KS 2 Wounded Warriors. CB Yeah. KS 2 Wounded Warriors. CB Yeah. KS 2 Wounded Warriors. CB What about you two?

KS 2 Wounded Warriors. I was just thinking that we should probably have some names for each other because even though there's a lot of humor, it's usually after the fact. Well, it depends what we're talking about, but for the times when you really need it, it doesn't usually come right away.

Although calling somebody else out on their state can also go very wrong. So you have to read the room. But I don't want to know what your name for me would be, but we should think about it. Because I do think it would not on air. I have a few in mind for you, but also not on air. No you can say those. No, I have no guard.

I need to. I know, you can say those. No, I have no, I have no gut. I need to. I know, I'm so curious. I need to choose very carefully for my own, my own self. Yeah. But I think that is very useful. And there was a turning point for sure, as we are also very different, different backgrounds, different expressions of caring, different changes in our outlooks and choices in life,

many of which have paralleled each other, some of which are just like off cycle. You know, I'm still, Dan has very much figured out his lane in terms of shifting from journalist to whatever we're calling you now, but it's working, you know. No, but you know where your passion lies, both intellectually and professionally and all the things.

And I'm sort of in an in-between place and that certainly affects me, you know, how I am on a daily basis for now. But yeah, to have a little perspective, which we have in learning more about each other, but in the moment when one is not feeling cared for as much as they'd like to be and the other isn't in a place necessarily to hear it and respond to it, that is a tricky zone. And so a name might help, I don't know.

What do you think? Kind of reminds me of like performing IFS on your romantic partner. IFS just for the uninitiated, everybody on this call knows what it is, but just for the listener. Internal family systems, I'll drop some links in the show notes,

I've done some episodes on this. It's a form of therapy where you name your inner parts. We all have different aspects of our personality, jealous mode, anger mode, generous mode, and you name and create relationships with each of these aspects of your personality. And Koshien coming up with these names for Chodo's parts is, and it's probably not a coincidence

that Koshien is a trained therapist, is naming aspects of Chodo's inner repertoire. And I think the question you're asking, Bianca, is like, how can you do that, especially with some humor, that doesn't make the situation more combustible in tenuous moments? Yeah, well, you can't make it up on the fly, that's for sure, in the middle of the discussion.

That would be very bad. Well, I would imagine what you guys did is come up with these names when you weren't in the middle of a fight, and so that when you were in a fight, the names could be invoked with some degree, some potential for success. Mm-hmm. And also, I think our experience, too,

is actually learning with Blash Willie and Negative Nigel, really actually naming them avoids a lot of fights actually, because I feel like when those folks show up, they tend to cause trouble, right? And that's just what they do. And so I think that actually us being able to have a sense of humor about it in the moment, right? Is able to kind of allay it. And I think that that has been amazing for me because actually one of the things that has been challenging for me in that situation is that I used to take with Blash Willie and Negative Nigel so personally, when he's just feeling angry or just feeling negative or whatever that is. And I used to, because of my history, feel like I did something wrong. So now it actually has been actually very healing

in our relationship to not have to believe that. in our relationship to not have to believe that. But shouldn't it work both ways also? You're supposed to say, let's just jump in there. Yeah. I feel very protective. Coaching Klein and Freddie Freud over here. Coaching Klein and Freddy Freud is like, you know what? Stop. Terrifying me.

You know what I'm saying? So what's going on for you? What's the story you're telling yourself right now? Which I love Jericho Lona. What's the story you're telling yourself now? I was like, you know what? F you. Freddy Freud.

Leave me to it. I'll just say it. I'm going to go. I'm going to go. I'm going to go. I'm going to go. I'm going to go. I'm going to go. I love Jericho Lona. What's the story you're telling yourself now? I was like, you know what? F you. Freddie Freud, leave me to it, I'm just fine. Coaching twice. So I do have these pet names too. I've just learned those too, just now.

Yeah. There's no living live moment. Freddie Freud over there. It's a living live moment from the point of it. It's a good one. Isn't that great? But what you're saying, Choto, is that sometimes when he does IFS on you, it doesn't go down well. Right.

It never goes down well. He usually tells me to go F myself. You can say fuck on this show. I don't know why you're not saying. Let's go fuck yourself or other words, but actually, but I'm fine. And I usually just say, okay, I will, I'll go do that. And I'm gonna go to the gym or whatever that is.

So I think that it doesn't always like in that moment break it, but it does for me. It breaks the, the log where I get into trouble, where I over personalize. And actually when I over personalize it and think that he's angry and it's about me. What makes it complex too is this kind of relationship, this back and forth thing of the psychological back and forth. You know, so I can drive him to this place where he needs to go to the gym, get out of my sight kind of thing. But then when he leaves,

it's like when you're coming back, you know, as I get, get really, if it's not back in an hour, it's like, it's not coming back. You get insecure. I get really insecure. I'm like, now I'm texting. Where are you now? I'm in the gym. How long are you gonna be? And then it's like, how long are you gonna be? Cause I need to put the kettle on

or I need to start dinner when really it's like, when are you coming home? Are you coming home? I used to have that experience a lot. Now I ask when he's home with a different answer. When are you leaving? Yeah. Yeah. How long is it going to be? Take a little more time.

Don't worry, take your time. Tomorrow's fine. But I used to have the same, you know, fears. And with Dan traveling so much early on and just being sort of too busy and also unfamiliar with the emotional state of somebody who fears abandonment, which I genuinely don't feel I have that fear anymore, but undoubtedly it comes out in other ways because it's a part of your history that doesn't really go away, even if you have a better relationship

with it or to it. So it doesn't present like that at all for me anymore. But yes, it's got to present in other ways. And that probably comes out in not necessarily the content of our arguments, but the manner in which we argue because then it touches on a place of real deep-seated like existential, you know, am I not good enough? And all the things that I know might be pointed out to me because you know they're probably true, it's easier to get defensive because that is the very thing that you worry about being the thing that drives somebody away. Totally get it.

Totally get it. I mean, it's like, she and I again, joined at the hip, Bianca. Always. Coaching's much better, you know? It's like, I know this is not about me. Like, when I kind of shoot the arrows towards it, it's like, you know, this is not about me. And I probably get it, love you, and what's going on. And sometimes I can say, you know,

what got touched right now is boom. And other times I just have to whiplash, really come through. So there's this beautiful relationship towards each other and our own kind of her places. But Kosher's much better or not better, it's much easier for Kosher to say, well, you know, it's going on right now.

There are moments where I like, I do take it really personally. Still there are moments that I'd get like, I'd feel like a little baby, like a giant baby actually. Right. And I feel like I want to be a pup in his pup poos, you know, like I feel like, and I want reassurance, I want,

and that makes him crazy. Yeah. Well, that's where Chodo and I have sort of always had a bit of an alliance and just, I mean, the special love, not that I don't love you dearly, Koshin, but we've always also talked about in relationship occasionally, there's a little bit of a flip where Dan and Chodo are a little more aligned. So it's interesting that there are ways in which we are more similar, Chodo, as individuals

and friends and community than in relationship. Even if some of the same fears can be triggered, sometimes your response maybe to your own fears is more similar to Dan's frostiness. And for lack of a better, and I'm not trying to be disparaging, but your way a little bit is to push away. Yeah. Even if you want to pull closer. Plus one on everything you just said there.

I don't take it personally at all, at least not right now. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. The day is young. Exactly. That's a new state of the art. The name that's coming to mind right now is another person we all know, and I think we

all really revere, is this guy, Michael Vincent Miller, who is a legendary therapist and in particular has done a lot of great couples therapy. And Bianca and I have done a lot of couples therapy with Michael and really love him. And he has this concept of intimate terrorism. And he came up with this concept before 9-11 and before the word terrorism really kind of took on the, it's always been a hefty word and he chose it deliberately, but it's even more loaded now.

And so he's always quick to point that out. But he talks about how in every relationship, or pretty much every relationship, there's usually somebody who fears abandonment and another person who fears engulfment. And with us, Bianca, and I can kind of see it with Koshin and Chodo, in your case, given your past, there were fears of abandonment.

In my case, fears of engulfment meaning specifically for me. I can't handle this. In fact, where I would go with it is, I must be a monster who's incapable of love because I cannot handle these demands. Time out. I don't know how much of this we're gonna wanna put in, but what demands do you speak of?

Or how can we have this conversation? Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I apologize. They're not even like big demands, just basic demands for not being frosty in moments when you need it. So you don't make outsized demands and I apologize. I should have been clear about that.

So this is in no way to denigrate you, more to talk about my own feelings of deficiency and how this fits within this concept that Michael talks about of intimate terrorism that each side is triggering the other person's fears and can put you into a downward spiral, which my friend Evelyn Tribbley calls the toilet vortex. And the way out, I think, or at least one way out that Koshen is able to do sometimes, and I think we're all able to do sometimes,

is to have some compassion, not only for yourself, but for where the other person's coming from, and to recognize that it's not personal. And so over time for me to have more confidence that, yeah, I'm not a horrible person. Like, yes, I might get annoyed inappropriately, but I still have what it takes to be a husband. Anyway, so does that, Bianca, I know I might have pissed you off there.

Did I clean it up? You did clean it up, which is not to say there aren't other things that are appropriately triggering, but just as a generalization. And I would say one of the triggers actually is really putting those labels. I understand the concept, but I, you know, the word abandonment is a very challenging one. I think it has a, you know, there's a victim kind of quality to it.

There's something about it that doesn't, for me at least, feel quite right, but it's easy to have an opinion about it, you know, from the inside or the outside. And so part of that struggle, knowing that, you know, if we're in a position where you're thinking about it, I know that you're not understanding actually. You may think you're understanding our roles, but the understanding of what I'm actually feeling in fearing abandonment for lack of a better word gets a little diluted.

And of course I can't make that whole argument in the moment, but what I would say is that there's a little bit of both in everyone. He's, you know, you're not all one thing. I definitely fear engulfment and it doesn't present in the same way. So yeah, I would just be careful for me personally about that, but that's why I rejected it at the beginning of our sessions with him

only because it's largely correct as it would go. But not always so, right? Yeah. Yeah. And who gets to decide. That's true not always so, right? Yeah. Yeah. And who gets to decide? That's true with every model, right? Every heuristic for the mind or for relationships. It's like, not maybe not every model, but for most models, it's, they're useful to a point.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coming up, Koshen and Chodo talk about how being with dying people can inform your relationships and the importance of working on yourself outside of your relationship. Hey everyone, it's your girl Kiki Palmer. Did you know I host a podcast called Baby, This is Kiki Palmer and you're not going to believe the conversations I've had. Like is OnlyFans only bad?

How has dating changed in the digital age? What's the deal with Disney adults? I've talked to John Stamos, the VP, Kamala Harris, to Jordan Peele, Raven Simone and yes the one and only Jamila Jamil. And just wait until you hear our conversation. We talk, Twitter drama, bad dates, and then something. How the hell do you actually get sexy? Like what the hell does that mean?

I know how to be funny. I know how to be like, you know what I'm saying? Yes, exactly. Like I don't really know how to be like, and take your clothes off. I'm not robbing fucking Givens. You know, it's like, how do people do that? I've been in this situation too many times

and not felt any of those things. The girl eyes, the quiet, like I've never been quiet a moment in my fucking life. Yes. On Baby This is Kiki Palmer, no topic is off limits. Follow Baby This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now

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and check out Even Now Love today. I'm curious about one of the things that I think is implicit and explicit in our relationship together, the four of us, is that we all appreciate doing work and to be exploring and to both individually and as couples and as friends. And I think that one of the things, I was thinking about one of my mentors, this guy named James Holman said,

if you don't exaggerate, what's the point of speaking? So actually when I was thinking about- And you exaggerate a lot. Well, I knew Etc. a lot. Well, he was my mentor, you know. But I was wondering about Bianca, your response to Dan, because I was just hearing him and when he was sharing what he was sharing about, I was imagining that he was not talking about large demands. And I was just curious since we had this live moment, if this be okay, and it may not be okay,

but I'm just curious because I feel that that is something that happens with us. That sometimes we say words that fire us up in some way. And I was thinking about when Chodo thinks I'm being Freddie Freud, for example, I'm actually using concepts about him rather than feeling it, right? I think that that's when I'm kind of actually in a way pathologizing him or he feels pathologized. So I was just, I wondered if it would be okay if you wanted to say anything about it. Sure. I mean, I think what you said right there

was really illuminating, feeling pathologized, even if there's truth to it. In those moments when you're already feeling vulnerable, even if it seems like you're on the attack, the only thing that's gonna make it worse, even if it's based in understanding and compassion, is assigning it that role in a way that takes away your agency, that makes you feel, you allow yourself to feel misunderstood or worse, it touches so much on the thing that's true

that it's too painful, and your only choice is to sort of push it back out. And I think one of Dan's greatest strengths is he's exacting with his words, and is brilliant and can make sort of general, logical arguments that nobody could argue with, except that that's not always the plane that we're on. Which is not to say he's not having emotions.

It just means that I know for me personally, given my emotions and lack of skillful communication using logic in those moments, I know I've lost from the beginning because there is no better human that I know out there that can think and speak so clearly and so exacting in the way that Dan does. And in those moments, I can't understand it. I'm just paralyzed because I know I can't do better. There isn't even really space for me to understand his motivation or more importantly, his hurt. So as somebody who used to very much be a people pleaser, whose reversed course on that probably to the other extreme just in trying to heal on my own, it's kind of had an effect on Dan that I've missed on a number of occasions,

which is that I hurt him too. I do wanna take your side on, you made a lot of really excellent points in there. I agreed with all of them. Well, that's gonna sound a little self-serving because you said all this nice stuff about what a good arguer I am. That's not the part I'm trying to accentuate.

The minor point I wanna take your side on specifically is this use of words on my part. And like, yeah, you had a minute there where you got a little activated by my use of the word demands, but I take your side on that. Like I understand how that would sound pathologizing and like maybe some percentage true,

but not all the way true. And same with the word abandonment. And so yeah, long way of saying that. I think I can make the empathic leap on that. Yeah, long way of saying that. I think I can make the empathic leap on that. I'm just blown away by Bianca's thoughts and concepts. What? Take it in, Bianca.

Why? Take it in, take it in. But I genuinely don't know why. You don't know? Oh, because you spoke so eloquently. I mean, you spoke from my- Oh, thank you. From me, my heart too. It's like, yeah,

I mean, you spoke from my, from me, my heart too. It's like, yeah, caution is, uh, and it does not do sound denigrating, which it is, but I see my friend for the sweetness. No, no, no. For me, no, I'm like denigrating myself. You know, I can do that too, but I'm not thinking about me. I always put most people that we know in the category above.

I see everyone, most of what we know is intellectually, can't think of the word, vapor trails are appearing on my mind. But I don't see myself equal on so many levels, intellectually, most of the people that we know, I come from this place of very, a very feeling place as opposed to, yeah, a place of education, should we say.

I mean, I have a lot of wisdom, it comes from a very different place. So sometimes I get very tongue tied when I can't, when coaching gets into this kind of, therapy-izing or just being truly very smart. I think comes across as very smart and very learned. And I'm like, you know, as a kid that ran away from home at 16 and had no real formal education,

I think I don't know how to respond. So I respond with violence, you know, verbal violence, abuse, because that's what I know. Again, that's my placement. That's my place in this moment. Like I can, I think it's picking up on what Bianco was saying. So I come from this very feeling place,

this place of it's not emotional, it's very feeling. It's a deep seated feeling of, oh, it all comes out. All my shit. And you know, your wisdom and all my my wisdom and I like all my wisdom comes out of that place too. I think it has very little to do with intellect and more to do with just being in the world in a very different way, being in the world in a sensory. It has to do with sensory, it has to do with almost, it was a deep, deep empathy for others

and not so much for myself, but for others, which makes me such a great caregiver and great companion to those who are dying because it's so fresh in me. It's like, yeah, I can go there. I'm not afraid of this moment. I'm not afraid of these moments. I'm not afraid of fear.

I'm not afraid of fear. I'm not afraid of your anger because you are dying. And this is not coming from any books. This is not coming from any teachings, but other than my own innate wisdom and- And 30 years of meditation. Yeah, 30 years of meditation for sure. 30 years sitting on a cushion with this deep, deep, deep, deep,

knowing that what I have to offer is enough. Right? I don't really need to have all those credentials. Although there are times I thought I wish I had them. And mostly it's like, oh, fuck it. This is what you get. Right here, man.

Which is you're the best. So that's great for us. But in terms of what you're saying about what you do at the bedside with people who are dying, and it's just incredible. So I'm not likening what I'm about to say to what you do, but in the context of my training and the ICU and quite a lot of death as well.

It is the place where I feel most comfortable, most wise and most capable actually at the bedside, just at that fine line between life and death. Not just, I mean, mostly, yes, the patient, but the people around the patient. But I, you know, if I'm honest about it, of course a lot of it, most of it comes, I think, from empathy and awe at the human body and the world

and just solidarity in whatever way you wanna look at it. But also, I'm my best when the spotlight is not on me. And given that our issues aren't truly gone, but we don't have to face them in those moments because there's nothing more important, I think, than what others are going through in that context, how much of it is also sort of self-serving, I often ask myself. Not to take away from the motivation and the skill set and the sort of purity of what's happening, but I do know that I'm more capable in that scenario because it's not about me.

CB Yes. And over the years, my Buddhist practice has taught me or I've embodied or embraced the idea that it's not about me. When I'm in the room with someone or I'm at the bedside with someone, there's no othering. It's not there, there in that bed. I'm at the bedside with someone. There's no othering. It's not there, there in that bed. I'm here. It's about how do I join this person, but not coming with any agenda

and not making it about me at all. It's like, it's the two of us in this room, in this moment together. Yes, you're the person that's dying and I'm here with you. And there's no, there's that cliche, there's no separation. In fact, there isn't, because we're actually both dying in the moment, just that you're further along in the process. So if I can take out the me, the self, the chodo, just be fully present to whatever is happening in that universe, in that room, beyond the walls, just be here with you.

It's so fucking profound. There's nothing else like it. This is dropping away, because there's no room for ego, I don't think. If for me, my own experience, there's no room for ego. There's no room for I'm here, I'm your savior, and I'm gonna be with you till you die, till your last breath. Don't worry.

It's like, no, just here we are. This breath is all there is in this room right now. Just, that's it. That is really what you taught us in the foundations course. And I guess the thing thing when I try to look down on that scene, sort of outside of myself, I see one thing, and I agree there is no room for you, and you are together, but there is a sense of relief for me that I'm not in myself.

That I, well, to whatever, however the semantics work, there's a relief that the spotlight isn't there and the best of me can come out. But the counter to that is that you return to your life on the days that you're not at the bedside. And the, in some ways not at the bedside. And in some ways the absolute opposite happens. And is that destabilizing for you as somebody who has so much practice in being present and the breath,

and I'm not nearly as close? Or I'm not sure if that was a clear question, but. It wasn't very clear. The question wasn't very clear, but what I'm picking up on maybe is, so first of all, I just want to say also the gift of not having that formal education for me is that I am coming totally from this place of feeling, totally from this place of intuition and instinct. So I'm not getting getting as with a doctor,

there's the all sorts of other stuff going on in the back of the mind, what's this patient, how long is, whatever it is. And I was like, there's all sorts of other internal information coming. For me, it's just, and yet when I'm back out of the room, of course, it's like I'm in my life in a different way.

Yes, I'm in my life when I'm with someone, but outside of that experience, yeah, I'm on the street. I'm, you know, I'm coming to work. I'm running the center with kosher and getting caught up in all my bullshit and my ego for sure. And not, and not, and not, well, I don't know about the end. Not. I know for sure. And not. And not. And not. Well, I don't know about the and not. I know for sure. I'm getting caught up in all sorts of bullshit in my mind. It's in that place of being with someone who's dying that all that stuff drops away. And in my life outside of my work there,

it all comes flooding back. I want wanna just interject because I feel like actually maybe this is for Dan and Bianca and you like and myself. I can think that all of us have had that experience of dropping some of our bullshit and so that we can actually be with another person and how wonderful that is. It is to me like that's what compassion is. And for me, what I keep learning,

and I feel like I've seen with all of us in different ways, not like any of us are good at it, but the willingness to do that in more and more moments and throughout our life, to me in our interpersonal relationships, and like in your marriage, in our marriage, and in our friendships, in our family relationships, and all these things, not like we're ever good at it,

but we kind of know we've had that experience. I mean, I know I've had those moments with my father, who I love very much, but we have this like terrible dynamic about this one particular thing. And it was through the experience of being with people in extremis that I was able to really see how I was getting caught up in some bullshit in my mind. And I was able to let this one thing draw. And it was an amazing experience.

And I've seen that with you, Chota, like that you should see his relationships with people on Starbucks. Like he's so alive and present to so many people like between where we live and this place. It's just like that. It doesn't mean that like, and also we all get caught up, but I think it's always hard for us to also celebrate

that there are moments where we don't. And I've experienced that with you, Dan. I've experienced that with you, Bianca. And of course with Choto, just like where you're just with each other. I just wanna celebrate that also. There's those sweet moments that I feel like I'm just appreciating more. I think what you're pointing to, Koshin, is that it can be really helpful to have some sort of practice,

whether it's going to therapy or meditation or whatever that you bring into a relationship because it does allow you, and I'm gonna quote Michael Vincent Miller again in something he said to me, which is to turn down the I, the letter I, the ego, the ensconcement in yourself, to turn that down and be more available. Doing therapy, doing meditation can help

so that you can show up in the right way for whoever you're married to or in a relationship with. I wonder, Dan, you've spoken about this before, I'm sure on a number of occasions, but your experience with Ron, Ronnie, when you were in hospice, how that was for you when it comes to like being with another person who is approaching death, although it took a long time with Ronnie, but how were you in that relationship when you were just

you and Ronnie? How did it change your relationship? How did that change Bianca? Yeah. Well, it's interesting. So just to give some context to the listener, Bianca and I did a course, a nine-month course through the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, which is run by Koshen and Chodo. They have a nine-month course called Foundations, and it teaches you essentially how to be a volunteer in a hospice. And so I was volunteering during those nine months in a hospice where I met this guy, Ronnie, who had been admitted to

a hospice with a diagnosis of three days to live. And by the time I met him, had been in the hospice for three years and ended up living three more years. And the reason in part why I, you know, often people stop being a volunteer at the end of the nine months, I kept being a volunteer is because I had, I developed such a close relationship with this guy, Ronnie. We had nothing in common on the surface. He was a construction worker from Harlem

who, you know, lived a completely different life than I did, but we really hit it off. And I did experience moments of... So this was in like 2016 when I met him and when I did this course with you guys. And I did experience moments of, you know, the self falling away and being totally available to him and others in the hospice.

And to get back to Bianca's original question, you know, I could step out of hospice and like have a temper tantrum on text with somebody at work. And, you know, all of my crap would come back. And so it was a really helpful experience but it wasn't like I you know all of a sudden was fixed as a husband and father. No no no no no no no. You were too quick to agree with that I just want to point out. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha In our remaining time here, the executive producer of this show, DJ Kashmir, has often

pointed out that one of the hallmarks of the show is that we're relentlessly practical. So I do want to come back to some practical stuff that we started with really, and I just want to put a fine point on it for the listeners. And so I'm kind of going to throw some questions at you guys, specifically Chodo and Koshin, for listeners who want to learn from how you've had this incredibly successful relationship

for so long, especially given the fact that you both come out of backgrounds of significant trauma. And in the case of Koshan, you know, he's been on the show before. I'll drop some links in the show notes where he talks about his childhood, which was no walk in the park. You know, specifically looking at what we can talk about

that we can leave people with that's practical is understanding your partner's patterns and having some compassion for them, understanding your own patterns that and having some compassion for them, understanding your own patterns that you bring into relationship, and being able to call out the other person's inner characters skillfully, it's not always gonna work,

and also being able to create some sort of rules or to bring in another name that we're all familiar with, Jerry Colona, who talks about relationships in a work context mostly, he talks about giving people your operating manual. And that's, I think, portable over to romantic relationships too. So I'm throwing a lot at you now,

and I'm kind of looking at you, Koshan, to land this plane for me, but to help me think about what specific advice we can give to people, given everything we've talked about in this conversation. So the first thing to me is the beauty of being in relationship, for example, with Chodo. And I feel like actually again what the four of us share is that to be engaged in our work, which is to understand and be interested in our psychological and spiritual life inside and out.

And to me, so finding therapy, finding a meditation practice, both individually and finding ways to connect together around shared exploration is really, really, to me, is the reason why our relationship works, is that shared interest in the value. So when it's one thing to have values of growing and learning and not having our values match. And so I feel like that we do this very imperfectly,

but the willingness to say like, how are we doing our values and what we're actually doing together matching? So that's one thing. And to me, you do that through psychological work, spiritual work, meditation practice, finding ways of digging in in the long term, finding ways to really,

the second thing is really to find those loving ways to know each other, to know those, especially the characters of ourselves, the aspects that are challenging, and how do we recognize them as patterns and it's not who the person is. So IFS talks about it as parts, Young calls them aspects, you know, that I think it's just to really appreciate and learn how to love actually and have actual real compassion, which is not easy for ourselves in relationship with our partners challenging aspects and to realize that they're being challenged

and working with it too. And it's not fun for them in those moments either. And that for me is really challenging and really important learning to have real compassion for your partner when they're suffering and they're spitting at you, not literally, but like that there is just like coming at you and realizing and learning how to create,

set boundaries or rules to say, you know, that that's not okay. I know you're having a hard time and I'm gonna go and do this and I look forward to reconnecting with you. I feel like that is really important. And then another thing is what Jeri Kelowna taught us in our relationship was telling the story about yourself. What's the story you're telling yourself right now. That has been so important in moments for Chota and I. It's another part of the toolkit

so important in moments for Chota and I. It's like another part of the toolkit of really realizing like, wow. It's also a way of recognizing that you and your partner are struggling in that moment. And to me, it's actually another way of developing love and compassion is to look at him across the room and see his face struggling and I'm struggling.

And I realized like we're both caught in a story and learning how to say that has been so freeing and healing for me and I think for us. So I'm right now caught in this moment of deep admiration for Koshin's ability to just put it out there. So clearly with such intellect, with such a learned person that he is, I'm just sometimes sitting next to him and thinking, wow, how can he put all that together so quickly?

And it's not coming from a place of envy or jealousy or anything. It's coming from this place of deep, deep love. Wow, look how different we are. How it is over 23 years. I come in this very deep feeling place. Coaching comes from this very deep place of intellect and also also feeling, but culture has this depth of feelings too. Not as deep as mine, you understand, but. Unbelievable.

Unbelievable. I think for us, it's about being able to play in the sandpit together, and also knowing that sandpit turns to shit and being able to stay in that too. It's like, yeah. To be uncomfortable together. Yeah. I also know women that sound like shit and being able to stay in that too. It's like, yeah. To be uncomfortable together. I feel like, yeah, that's another huge, huge- It's a big one.

Huge, huge dump. Huge, huge dump. No, but to be willing to be uncomfortable together and awkward together is to me another marve of love. Like, wow, this is so uncomfortable. We don't know where it's going to me another marf of love. Like, wow, this is so uncomfortable. We don't know where it's going. And we're both feeling awkward and uncomfortable. And how do we care for one another?

Every single morning before you leave the house, I love you. I never leave the house. This is another important thing. I learned actually in the emergency department, I never leave the house without holding his face and telling him how much I love him because I'm very aware from working emergency department how many people loved ones or friends would come in and be like I can't believe the last

conversation we had or like they were leaving the house this morning. I was like, fuck off. Or like whatever that is, they just weren't caring for each other. So I always appreciating that it might be our last time. So I always want to leave the house while letting him know exactly how I feel. So I feel like actually that's a pretty awesome relationship thing. So if you want a relationship hack, you know, to me it's like, have you told the person that you love

exactly how you love them today? It doesn't matter. Do you do the same, Jodo? Name Jodo? Not as willingly, she would say, or as easily as motion can do it. I mean, you know, again, I didn't grow up with that language. You know, I wasn't raised to that kind of language of I love you and I'm going to miss you and hurry home or anything like that. I love you and I'm going to miss you and hurry home or anything like that. So it's a task sometimes. But I do. Do I say it enough?

Not enough, but I do say it. You could use a little work. I could use a little work. You're perfect and complete, lacking nothing and you could use a little work. As Shen versus Yoki says, you know, like, we all can, but the reality is me too. Me too, me too.

But I really relate to Chodo on this one. No. Yeah, I know, I know it's gonna surprise you, Bianca. This is my term I'll use about myself, is like I bump up against a wall of like stinginess you know, I don't want to fucking do it right, especially if I feel like I'm supposed to there was a New Yorker cartoon where a The wife says to the husband or might have been in reverse the husband saying to the wife

That one of the people in the panel says I I love you and the other person says, stop threatening me. Which I fucking love. I love that. That's it for me. You wanted to come back to Operating Manual, Bianca? Yeah, please. Yeah, I think that's a really important hack and this is built into what you were saying,

but you have to know what your Operating Manual is and I think that's a really important hack, and this is built into what you were saying, but you have to know what your operating manual is. And I think that takes work, the work you're talking about, and that takes very individual work. Your partner is not there to sort of receive your trauma and help you figure it out. You know, it took a long time for me to understand in a way that your partner can't be everything for you.

It shouldn't be everything for you. You have to figure out this shit on your own, but also not to sort of indulge it so much that you aren't open to change and growth. One of the things that I was really attracted to early on that continues, even if it's really not easy, is that because of our differences, really just in, in how, you know, just in our, in our affect a lot of the times, it does force me to pause and look at what I'm feeling and

what I'm expecting or you know he'll have expectations of me that you know what maybe in my dreams my better self would actually be like that. So what could feel like an unfair request if I stop and think about it, like I kind of want to be like that. So it does push me to leave some of my shit behind. So the operating manual has to be informed, but flexible. And I think that's really important because there's so much you can get out of your partner

in terms of feeding back on your own happiness, I guess, as an individual. Yeah, Michael Vincent Miller talks a lot about how romantic relationships are like the crucible for growth. As, you know, there's, and he's got this really incisive critique of the modern, you know, romantic industrial complex that sells this idea that, you know, as he says, we're going to go from one enchanted evening to happily ever after, which, and it's, you know, we talk about falling in love as it's, as if it's simply a matter of gravity, that nobody's talking about the work that is involved here. And that work that Miller emphasizes, I think so skillfully is like, and I really like this reframing is there's a lot for you in this work. If you're looking to get happier, get stronger,

get healthier, there's an opportunity right there in your relationship. Yeah, both have to be willing because we know plenty of relationships where, one partner is willing or one of them isn't or, and we can, it's so easy to fall into complacency also, right? And so I think the shared willingness and the shared value, I just feel like we can't underscore that enough.

Like how critical that is, like to not only just say like, oh yeah, I'm into growing, but this is how I'd like to grow now, right? And how I want to continue to grow and open up. So I just feel like that is so important and vital. The shared vitality individually and as a couple is a beautiful and challenging and adventurous thing. and challenging and adventurous thing. I'm just thinking of our age difference for almost 20 years, almost.

And the work that comes more easily, I would think, the caution that it does to me being 20 years old and like, you know, maybe more set in my ways and less open to new ways looking at things. And that's not to say that it's healthy or correct or in any way, but it's just, it's also one of those things where I, I, where I can be really. Commudgently. Commudgently.

It's like, you know, it comes with age, you know, You get to be a certain age. You get to be a cumulgeon. Maybe you can use age as an excuse. Yeah. Because you also can age and keep growing. So I'm not saying I can. I'm just saying. I'm not saying I can. I'm not saying I'm not. It takes a little more time to like I'm not just saying it takes a little more time to like Acquire us good for you. Good for me. It's good for you. You do it looks like it's good It's good for us for sure Reverse the world sometimes i'm the best father, you know, it's like his daddy and other times

I'm like, he's the best. He's like he's like the best dad daddy, you know, it's like daddy's such a gay thing best father He's like the best dad. Daddy's such a gay thing. Best father. I love him. We are homosexuals. Wait a minute, you guys are gay? You didn't know? Are you gay? It's not like a coming out episode. I know, I know.

Yes, I think of, yeah. That's daddy. I will not call you daddy, Dan, just so you know. No, it wouldn't work if you called him daddy. I have to call him daddy. Daddy, dad. Debbie, can you be called daddy, dad? Can daddy?

Daddy, dad? No, it's not working. Like not daddy, Dan, maybe? It's not landing. Not landing, no. No. First time Alexander called me daddy, daddy, dad, no, it's not working. Like not daddy. It's not landing. It's not landing. No. No. First time Alexander called me daddy, it was like,

oh, that felt like closer to my real name than Dan. Oh really? Like, oh yeah, that's who I am. Wow, nice. What's happened since the time I called you daddy? Might have been a little less wholesome than you. Beautiful nonetheless. It was wholesome.

Don't be rude. When we were in the restaurants, I was thinking that my dad is picking up the checks. Okay, I'll replace the word wholesome with G-rated instead of R-rated. Dad is speaking up the checks. Okay. I'll replace the word wholesome with G rated instead of R rated. This has been amazing. Uh, it feels complete to me, but I do want to just check with the three of you that whether there's something you wanted to talk about that we haven't had a chance to hit. No, I think it's good. I mean, I feel like there could always be a part two, three,

four, five, six. And they're willing. It just feels like an ongoing conversation. Yes. Going out of total commotion. One final, final question here is, and I'll direct it to you, Koshan, but you can take it if you want, Chodo, is just can you remind everybody about all the amazing things

that the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care does in the world in case they want to learn more about you guys, and also maybe throw in the books that you've written. So, New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, we do three main things. One of them is we have Zen practice. For anyone who's interested

in Zen practice. We have sitting every day and Zen retreats and half day retreats once a month. As well as two times a year we have a 90 day practice period. And so to deepen our practice so everyone is welcome. The second thing we have our education program, so we have a certificate in psoriasis and lumbar studies as well as a master's program. And along with the program that we've talked about, which is foundations and contemplative care, which is really about bringing your values and what you're doing together through studying together and serving at the bedside. And the last kind of large education program we have is called the Contemplative Medicine Fellowship. And we're delighted to be with some of our shared friends and faculty here,

which is for any physicians, nurse practitioners, or physician assistants who want to spend a year of really learning what it means to be in fellowship together, to really redefine and reclaim what medicine is, and to use contemplation to actually be part of the medicine to how we engage and lead and work with our resilience. And then we also do care programs. So through our students offering care at the bedside, as well as Choto leads bereavement support, both in groups and individually, and we also companion people through the advent of a serious diagnosis through their dying process

and caring for their loved ones afterwards in bereavement. So it's a beautiful opportunity and our website is called ZenCare.org. And I do, I've edited a book that many people find very helpful called Awake at the Bedside, Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End-of-Life Care," which Mr. Campbell has a beautiful essay in also. And there are two other books. One is called, Full Hearted Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up, which is about living an ethical life and untangled walking the whole path of clarity, courage, and compassion, which is really about how do we untangle our suffering through relationship like what we're talking about here. And it's through Shakyamuni Buddha's,

historical Buddha's teaching of the four nobilities of suffering, the causes of suffering, how we can change and the path itself. So they're good resources. And main thing is to live our lives fully and care for one another. Just a double click on the, I just want to say that everybody should check out the New York Zen Center, the incredible resources there. And I also highly recommend all of Koshin's books.

And I really recommend Chodo's book, even though it's not out yet. Two working titles, Dan. You do? What are, blame on me. I know one of them. You will never amount to anything in this life. You'll never get nothing in this life.

Yeah. And the next one is You Die More Than Once. Like that. I like the both. I would vote for the first one, but I mean, I buy either of those books. You die more than once then in the art of survival, something like that. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. You will achieve nothing in this type of pre-life. I like that though. But the other one was remember was disco, drugs, dancing and dama or something like that. Disco, drugs, dama and dama. That'll sell.

Thank you all for doing this. Love you guys. Thank you. Love you guys. Love you. And let's not forget our double date in real life. Thanks again to Koshien and Chodoloff talking to those guys. There were a few past episodes of this show that were either referenced directly or implicitly during this conversation.

I just want to let you know that I will drop some links in the show notes if you want to check them out, including an interview with Dr. Richard Schwartz, the originator of IFS, my past interviews with Koshien, past interviews with Jerry Colonna, Dr. Bruce Perry, and Evelyn Tribbley. If you're a subscriber at danharris.com, you will have already received a cheat sheet of today's episode, which sums up all of the key takeaways and includes a full transcript.

Subscribers also get live AMAs with me and much more. So come check it out. Before I go, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People.

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