Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How to Repair the Damage After a Fight | Dr. Becky Kennedy

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

Plus, what happens if you don't repair, whether it's ever too late to repair, what "boundaries" actually are, and a helpful little tool for avoiding fights called the "MGI."Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and mom of three. She is the author of Good Inside and the host of the podcast Good Inside with Dr. Becky. Her new TED Talk is called “The single most important parenting strategy.”In this episode we talk about:How to repair damage after a fightWhat happens if you don’t repairWhether it’s ever too late to offer a repairWhether “good inside” is a thesis for all of humanityWhether punishment is ever appropriateDr. Becky’s definition of “boundaries”A handy hack for avoiding fights called the “MGI”Whether or not Dr. Becky follows her own adviceFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/becky-kennedySee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast, I'm Dan Harris. Hello, everybody. How we doing? If it is true, and it is true. But anyway, if it is true, that the science strongly suggests that the quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your life, then what logically follows from that

is that if you want to be as healthy and as happy and live as long as possible, you need to learn the skills to do relationships better. You can call this interpersonal hygiene, some psychologists call it social fitness. Whatever you wanna call it, these are essential life skills which are very rarely taught to us, which brings me to today's guest,

who is here with some extremely useful social fitness strategies, specifically how to repair the damage after you get into a fight with somebody. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and mom of three, who's been called the millennial parenting whisperer by Time Magazine to be clear right here from the jump. Becky spends much of her public and professional life thinking about and talking about

parenting, but she is trained as a therapist for grownups and also as a couples counselor and this conversation I think is going to be very useful even to people who don't have kids a little bit more about Dr. Becky She's the founder and CEO of good inside a content and community company She wrote the number one New York Times bestselling book also called good inside and she hosts a podcast by the same name She's just out with a new Ted talk about repairing the damage after a fight, and in this conversation, we're going to dive much more deeply into this question, how to do repair, what happens if you don't do it, and whether it's ever too late. Plus her definition of boundaries, and an awesome concept that I'm already using in my own life

when I get into conflict, MGI and LGI. Most generous interpretation and least generous interpretation. I love this conversation. I think you will too. Find something you love, you stick with it. Like this podcast. And like working out with Peloton. And with up to $950 off Peloton purchases this holiday, bring home a Peloton bike, bike plus or tread, and work out like nobody's watching. Unleash yourself. Ride, run, box, or freak the hit out. It's your workout, your rules.

I always find myself looking forward to my next ride with Peloton. For Peloton's best offers of the season, now extended through December 5th, head to www.1peloton.ca-offers. All Access Membership Separate. Terms Apply Hello listeners, this is Mike Corey of Against the Odds. You might know that I adventure around the world while recording this podcast. And over the years, I've learned that where I stay when I travel can make all the difference. Airbnb has been my go-to place for finding the perfect accommodations. Because with hotels, you often don't have the luxury of extra space or privacy. Recently, I had a bunch of friends come down to visit in Mexico. We found this large house and the place had a pool, a barbecue, a kitchen, and a great big living room to play cards,

watch movies, and just chill out. It honestly made all the difference in the trip. It felt like we were all roommates again. The next time you're planning a trip, whether it's with friends, family, or yourself, check out Airbnb To find something you won't forget. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Suryte. And we are the hosts of a Redhanded, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Redhanded, we get stuck into the most talked-about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nephiles Royal Massacre and the Nithory Child Sacrifices. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior.

Find, download, and binge-read-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts. Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Dan. Congratulations on your TED Talk, which I was there for in person and was dazzling in the audience and same digitally. Let's start with a TED Talk.

You start the talk by describing a fight with your son. Can you tell that story? Yeah, so essentially I had been cooking dinner for my family. It was a Sunday night and Sunday nights to me. They're just so hard. Like there's a million things that were undone from the weekend. There's a million things I know I need to do for the week. And so I'm often kind of on edge. So I actually cooked dinner that night, which is not something I usually do. But I did. And then my son kind of walked into the

kitchen. And he just looked at the table and he's like, oh, chicken again. And then he kind of like mumbled, like disgusting, like that. And there's so many things I wish I did in that moment, but I didn't. And I just exploded. And I think my body was just completely full of frustration. At that moment, there was not like one ounce left to metabolize any additional frustration. And that moment, there was not like one ounce left to metabolize any

additional frustration. And so it all came out. And I just yelled at him. I was like, what is wrong with you? You're so spoiled. You know, and just kind of went on in this scary reactive way. He then proceeded to say, I hate you. And then he ran out of the kitchen. He ran to his room. He slammed the door. He's alone there. I'm alone in the kitchen. And you know, that's how the night began.

Sounds like good parenting to me. What's the problem? Well, you know, and I think this is the focus of the TED Talk and that moment happened. And I actually think every single person, like if you're a parent, you're like, yeah, yeah, that moment happened in my house. If you're not a parent, you're like, oh, I've said things I didn't want to say. I've used a tone that I am not proud of, right? That is the moment.

And then often what we do after the moment, and I did this, we spiral. We usually spiral in one form of blame. And actually often we see saw the blame of what's wrong with my kid. My kid is so obnoxious. I'm cooking food. What's wrong with my kid? Or what's wrong with my boss?

Or what's wrong with my partner? Like what's wrong with the other person? And then we see saw between that and what's wrong with me. Why did I do that? I messed up this other person forever. I'm such an asshole, right? And irony, and I think the thing that the talk really speaks to is what does, and it's always more damage to another person, isn't actually the event or the moment of yelling.

It's actually what happens in that spiral because as we spiral in blaming someone else and or blaming ourselves, we actually fail to go reconnect and to repair the relationship and repair, as is the subject of the TED Talk, is actually the most powerful parenting strategy we have. So we miss out on this really, really important overall relationship moment. So mess ups are going to happen in parenting or any other relationship. It's what you do subsequently, the repair that is the key. Yeah. And I think there's like a really big picture here, right? I didn't talk about this too much in the TED talk, but a lot of my thoughts around repair

really come from trauma literature and understanding trauma. And we know trauma is not the event that happened. It's the way an event gets processed in your body. I think another way of saying that, I love Gabor Matez, he says, trauma isn't the thing that happens to you. It's kind of what happens inside of you. And so, parents, non-parents, we all can really focus on the event, on the moment. But in every relationship, it's actually more about whether that moment gets stored in our body next to a loneliness and nobody talking about it,

or denial from other people, or whether that moment gets stored next to connection and safety and love and explanation and understanding that actually determines the way the event gets remembered in our body. So yes, those moments happen for everyone. Everyone yells, everyone snaps. Everyone says the thing that's imperfect.

We all do. And I think what I really want people to shift in terms of their perspective is rather than focusing on the kind of harmful impact of the event to really, really be aware of the healing, powerful opportunity of the repair that can happen next. This is an interesting reframe, because most of us, as you said,

used moments of dysregulation to blame other people and beat the shit out of ourselves. But actually, the reframe that I'm hearing from you is, oh, these are gonna happen anyway. You might as well view them as an opportunity. Completely. And we've inherited those coping mechanisms, right? Like that tendency to blame ourselves

or blame someone else. I mean, that's not something we were born with, right? Like no babies like in their crib, waking up their parents at 2am and being like, oh, like is that too much? Like did I really need that feeding or such a selfish baby? We're not born with that tendency to blame.

And actually, that tendency we all have, which we can talk more about why, but the blaming mentality is a very stuck mentality. There's no movement possible. I'm kind of burrowing back into myself or I'm focusing all my energy on how awful someone else was. Nobody can make any changes from that place. So, it's also, and I know you're a pragmatist too, Dan.

It's just, it's a very ineffective mindset because after we yell, most of us don't want to do that again. And so, it's about finding a mindset and a couple of next steps that actually can help us change rather than keep us stuck in that awful moment. So you talk about the three steps for repair. Let's go through them. Step number one is actually internal, not external. Yeah, when I think of three steps to repair, the first step, okay, and I really mean this, is to mess up. And that, I think, is so important. It's helped me personally as a recovering perfectionist so much because I remember being in grad school

and hearing this line that my professor said, like, in passing, and I remember, being like, I'm not gonna hear anything else you said, that thing you said in passing was just so profound. And what she was talking about was how repair is a marker of secure attachment. Kids who had more repairs growing up were more likely to have a secure attachment, secure attachment basically predicts everything good that we want for our kids.

And sent you to talk about attachment, I was like, wait a second, wait a second, no one else is like finding this profound. If repair is a marker of secure attachment, that means everyone ruptures like, why is no one highlighting this? Because also, if repair helps kids get into secure attachment, then you can't repair if you didn't rupture. It's almost like full permission to mess up. It's like you have to rupture to get good at repair. And so when I think about the three steps of repair and saying step one is rupture, which means yelling, saying the thing I don't want to say,

messing up, whatever you want to say. That actually is step one. And the reason that helps me so much is because, and I did this in the kitchen after I yelled on my son. I was like, okay, instead of going to the best of them, an awful parent, I messed up my kid forever, I actually pictured this road. And I'm like, okay, I'm actually on the road to repair.

And I know I'm on the road because I just ruptured. If step three is repairing with my kid, step one is rupturing. Like I crushed that step on a third of the way there. Like that's pretty close, like a my momentum, right? And I really do say that to myself. Like, wow, look at me, I'm like getting closer. Okay, so that's step one.

And if you're thinking about repair, you've already done step one. It's pretty, you know, pretty compelling. Step two is repairing with ourselves. And this is the step that I think too many people were never taught. And it's really the singular reason why so many people would say, yeah, I'm not gonna do apologizing.

And it's not because you're selfish, and it's not because you don't have empathy. It's actually probably because you hold yourself with such derision and shame and blame, that you literally can't face the reality of this thing you did. So we can never repair with someone else if we can't accept that this not so good thing actually is something that we did. And the only way we can accept that we did a kind of bad thing is actually by differentiating

how I'm still a good person who did a bad thing is actually by differentiating how I'm still a good person who did a bad thing. And if I can't repair in that way, which does not mean excusing it, mix up all those things, okay? If I can't separate for myself, hey Becky, I'm a good person who did a bad thing. I'm a good parent who loves her kid who yelled, like really separating what I say is my good identity from my bad behavior. It will be actually completely impossible to repair with my kit.

We cannot give out compassion and connection and goodness. If we haven't reaccessed those qualities in our cells, we can't give out what we don't have in. It's just like, I don't know, there's like physics, I think it's just not possible. It's action-off physics, but it's something. And then the last step is actually repairing with your kid. And this is where I think getting into some of the details matter because I think a lot

of us probably received apologies that didn't feel good. And that is not what I'm talking about. A repair is not, sorry I yelled, but if you didn't complain about dinner, it wouldn't have happened. That is not a repair. And if my son had said, yeah, like I really didn't like when you yelled at me, if I yelled, but if you didn't complain about dinner, it wouldn't have happened. That is not a repair. And if my son had said, yeah, like I really didn't like when you yelled at me, if I say, yeah, I'm sorry you feel that way. That is that classic line should be thrown in the garbage.

It is not a repair. A repair is naming what happened, taking responsibility for your behavior, acknowledging the impact of how to someone else. And if you really want to go for bonus points, kind of like sharing what you would do differently the next time or what you're working on. And that sounds very different than, I'm sorry, but if you didn't do that, it wouldn't have happened.

Sounds more like, hey, I yelled at you in the kitchen. And it's never your fault when I yell. I'm sure that felt really scary. And look, I was frustrated, but I'm working on managing my frustration, so it doesn't come out as a deal. Does repair always involve an abject, apology and a mission of fault?

What if it's more complicated? What if there are, I mean, your kid wasn't being awesome in that moment and sometimes when we lose our shit with other people, they're being worse than that. 100%. So there's a lot of nuance here. So there's a couple things because I know,

you know, as a parent, you're like, but like if he didn't say that you wouldn't have yelled, like isn't he kind of responsible? Or you know, you say in a partnership, but my wife said this kind of not so nice thing. So like she kind of did make me snap back at her, okay? But here's one of the things I think about here. Number one, we confuse our right to feel frustration with our right to express

frustration in an angry disrespectful way. They're two very different things. They're right to have a feeling and our responsibility to manage that feeling so we can show up as a respectful person, especially in the relationships we care about. Those are two very different things. My son's saying that, or maybe let's say, my partner constantly being late for dinners. Yeah, of course I feel frustrated. And of course that relates to my son saying he didn't like dinner or my husband being late.

That is completely different from feeling like I have a right to express that frustration in any way I choose to express it. I think it's so important to differentiate that. So that's number one. Number two, when parents say this to me and they say, yeah, well, I said to make it look, if you just listened to me and got ready in time, I wouldn't have yelled. Or if you didn't complain about dinner, you wouldn't have gotten yelled at. Okay, this is what I say, okay.

Because what we model to our kid is what they will do in the future. Like, Dan, I imagine being at my son's house, I don't know, however many years from now, let's say he's married, who knows if he will be. But, and I hear him say, let's say to his partner, look, I'm sorry, I yelled at you, but if you had just remembered to bring to the paper home, it wouldn't have happened. I'm sorry, I yelled at you, but if the dinner you made actually tasted good, it wouldn't have happened. To me, it's like literally cringe worthy

if my kid would think that that is an acceptable way to talk to someone. And I don't know any adult who'd be like, yeah, I would feel pretty awesome if I heard my kid talk to some of their loved ones in that way. And if we don't want our kids to become adults who communicate with others in that way,

we just can't communicate with our kids in that way and expect it to be any different. There's also like a bigger picture here if we zoom out. I realized I'm very, very big on personal agency, right? And I always say to parents, like what's going on with your kid isn't your fault. I believe that. That is like a firm, firm belief of mine.

Another equally firm belief that I just sit side by side is, okay, so what's going on with my kid isn't your fault. I believe that. That is like a firm, firm belief of mine. Another equally firm belief that I just sit side by side is, okay, so what's going on with my kid isn't my fault. I am the adult. I'm the leader in the room. And so it is not only my responsibility. I do have an opportunity to think about what I could do to shift a dynamic in the home. Because when we shift something in a system, everyone else in the system actually has to make a shift to accommodate. And so if we give that example of, let's say instead, I yell at my kid every morning because they're never ready for school.

And the truth is, if they did put on their shoes, I went, yeah, I guess that's true. But to me, it's very disempowering. It's very disempowering, it's an adult, I think, if my four year old just listened to me on time, I wouldn't yell. I am gonna put faith in adult to think, you know, if my four year old just listened to me on time, I wouldn't yell, like I am gonna put faith in my toddler's change in behavior for me to show up as the adult I want to show up as.

That would be like the CEO of a big company saying to their associates, you know, if you all showed up in time, I would be a better leader. I don't think anyone wants that CEO. You want a CEO who's like, hey, here's what I'm gonna do from the top because I actually have the most power in the situation. And there's a really important thing that happens. And this happens in my house all the time.

When I do say to my kid something like, hey, listen, something like, I'm sorry I yelled, the mornings have been really hectic, I'm frustrated and working on managing that. I always give myself 24 hours later. And I always say there has to be 24 hours after repair. Of course, I'm working on managing that. I always give myself 24 hours later, and I always say there has to be 24 hours after repair. Of course, I'm a pragmatist. Then I'll say to my kid, I won't say.

Now, remember how I apologize to yesterday? I didn't actually mean it, because you're actually just really annoying in the morning. That definitely is not something I recommend. But what I'll say is something from seeing my kid on my same team. I'd say, hey, mornings are so hard. And like, I ask you put your shoes on, you don't.

I ask again, you don't. And then it gets to the point where things feel really, really bad. And that's on me. And I have to imagine you also want mornings to be smoother. I wonder what we could do to just make mornings smoother. And when kids are approached from a place of collaboration, rather than control or criticism, it shouldn't be shocking that they're actually willing to collaborate and they're often very willing to apologize. I can't even tell you how many times 24 hours later after repair. My five year old came and said,

you know, and I really didn't listen to you and I'm sorry. Like, and I think this goes back to like this whole idea that drives everything I talk about, that kids are good inside, that if we set up conditions for them to thrive, they don't have to be tricked or stick or charted or time outed or punished. A lot of that does come out when we lead

with a similar generosity. I want to get back to good inside eventually, but let's just stay with repair. So are you saying that there's a fourth step, which is after you repair, give 24 hours and then go back and teach a little bit, either to your kid or to a grown up with whom you've had a rupture? Yeah, so we can use a grown up example. I always say 24 hours just because I know I need that. There's like totally nothing scientific about that. But I know if it's less than that,

I'm going to end up kind of like linking it directly and negating my apology. I just need that time in my body to kind of cool down, usually by then I've realized, wait, I like this person. I actually do see them as a teammate. I've forgotten that when I was in the heat of the moment. And so there often is either a skill that's missing or some problem that does need to be worked through from a place of teamwork, right? So let's say I don't know, it could be a situation in the office, we end up snapping at someone and you're like they really didn't do a great job

on their presentation, but also like I kind of snapped at them and like embarrassed them in the company meeting, right? So we're pyramid, like, hey, I'm sorry I said that in front of everyone, that was not okay. And I wanted to let you know that, some repair. And then back in my mind, I'm sorry I said that in front of everyone. That was not okay. And I wanted to let you know that, some repair. And then back in my mind, I'm like,

but they did do this like kind of half job. Okay, so if I'm following this, I'll be like, I'm gonna wait 24 hours, I'm gonna wait till I get a little more grounded. And then to me, it's really important to activate a framework. To me, whenever I'm conflict with someone, we either approach them, like it's me on one side of the table

and I'm looking at them at the other side of the table like they're the problem. And if they just kind of like Basically became a little bit more like me. We wouldn't have a problem. Versus it's actually me and this person on the same side of the table. And together we are looking at a problem. And if I don't get myself in that mindset, let's say with my colleague, there's just no way I'm gonna be effective. So it would take 24 hours and then I might approach a colleague like this. I might say, hey, you know, I'm thinking back on yesterday, again, totally not okay for me to yell.

I'm just thinking one on the same team here. We both want to produce something well, making this up for our client. And I'm just looking back and thinking that some of the feedback I'd given you earlier in the week wasn't incorporated. And so when the presentation, you know, when I was really surprised by that. And I think, you know, the best thing moving forward is just for us to think, was incorporated. And so when the presentation went on, I was really surprised by that. And I think, you know, the best thing moving forward is just for us to think, Hey, like, how can that happen again? Like, I'm sure you want to do a good job too. Maybe there was

something that wasn't clearly communicated. Maybe there was something that felt intimidating, but I just want to talk about that with you, not only so we're not in that situation again, but almost more importantly, so we can figure out how to work better together. Like, the truth is, had I set to my colleague the day before? Look, I'm sorry I yelled, but your presentation was like a joke and you didn't incorporate anything I said. Okay. That next conversation of like,

hey, how can we actually productively make change? Literally would have never happened. My colleague would have been like, Becky's an asshole, and I feel awful about myself. And I would have thought, oh, this person's hopeless. I would have seen them as an antagonist. They would have seen me as an enemy as well. And literally nothing has ever happened productively

from that type of framework. And so repair, finding my own goodness, kind of again, seeing goodness in someone else to repair, it actually allows me 24 hours later to actually move forward in a productive way. It's like a win, win, win for everyone in the whole system. Yeah, that all makes sense. I'm just thinking about I've been doing communication coaching with this couple,

Dan, Clermann and Wudita Nisker for five years. And I still fuck it up all the time. But one of their primary tenants is teamwork, getting people to see, inviting people into collaborative problem solving. And that's just a very attractive way to communicate. Yes, because when we don't do that, and to me this is also very relevant, you're a parent and you've finished you at school.

How do I talk to the teacher? Or me and my partner are disagreeing about whose family to go to for the holidays, right? The truth is, when you're arguing in conflict from a place of me against you, you're actually not able to talk about a problem. Each person unconsciously is just trying to prove to the other person that they're a good person.

That's what you're really doing. You're like, I'm a good person, no, I'm a good person. See my point, so you see that I'm a good person. So you actually can't solve anything. When you start out with the baseline, and sometimes just these words are helpful, say like, hey, let me just start by saying, we're really on the same team. Even the in-laws example, like, hey, we're on the same team. Like, I know we're trying to figure out who's

family to go to for the holidays. That seems conflictual, but we're actually on the team us. Like, we're both on team us and we both care about making the person in general happy and we care about ourselves being happy. Like, we actually have a lot of the same values. Let's just try to keep that in mind as we work through who's family we go to. It really sets the stage for effective working through of that problem while staying connected in this important relationship. What happens when there's no repair?

It's a really good question. I hate fear mongering and parenting guidance. To me, it's all out there. It's like, you need to do this thing or you're gonna mess up your kid forever. Like, I always try to save so far away from that parent who are doing the best they can with the information they have.

So I'm gonna share some information that I hope for parents acts as a kind of extra motivation. That's how I use it to repair, but not a like, oh my goodness, you know, fear mongering. It's really not from that place. Let's go back to the situation with my son. I'm in the kitchen, he's in his room. I'm upset.

He's definitely upset, too. What will happen if I don't repair? Or I think a lot of parents think I'm not going to bring it up again, like it would just make them upset. Why would I do that? Why would I bring it up? He came out half an hour later. It seems like everything's fine.

Now that we know the event happened, that's just the reality. The event happened. We can't change that, right? Okay, so how did my son's body register the event? Because also how we register something happens. It's now kind of imprinted in our body. Well, kids are oriented by attachment, which means more than anything else in the world,

they need to figure out how to stay close and loved by their parents, because that's actually how they get food and shelter and water and protection and all the things they need to grow. And so in this moment, for my son, the adult who is his most important protector became this threat, became scary, right? My caregiver became a scary parent. And so that's very disregulating, overwhelming

for a kid. It puts them into a state of distress. So my kid's body has already stored that sense of lack of safety and distress. So the question for him now is, how do I get back to feeling safe? Because I need to kind of feel safe to go about the world, to learn everything I need to learn, and to thrive. So one way of a kid feeling safe again, which is amazing is repair, but let's say I don't repair. A kid has no choice but to go from a physiological threat in place to have to get back to a physiological place

of safety. And they have two coping mechanisms at their own devices that they will always use because they have to in an adaptive way get back to feeling safe. And they're either self blame or self doubt. Self blame essentially my son is in his room. What is wrong with me? I'm awful.

I'm unlovable. Not enough. I'm too much. Something is wrong with me. I make bad things happen. And as awful as that sounds, we're all like, oh, I want my kid to ever think that. It's actually very adaptive. Like I always say it's very crafty for a kid

because as long as they can internalize the badness, as long as they can say, I am bad, they can maintain that their parents who really represent the world around them is good. And you actually need to believe that the world is good to like function as a kid and go on, right? And I love the Ronald Fairbring quote to me. It's just so poignant.

For a kid, it is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. So they internalize the badness so they can preserve us as good. Adaptive when they're young and yet, to me, after all my years of seeing so many adults in therapy, this still is one of adult's core beliefs. When they struggle, when they have something that's hard, their self-talk is something wrong with me.

I'm not enough or I'm too much, I'm unlovable. Something's broken in me. And, you know, what's so important for adults to know is that is not an original thought of an adult. That is a story we wrote in our bodies when we were kids, when we were left alone, following distressing events that went unrepaired, when distressing events go unrepaired, kids use self-blame to regulate.

And the other thing they use is self-doubt, which is like, I find really compelling to think about because it really urges me to go talk to my kid. Self-doubt sounds like this. I don't think that really happened. I must have overreacted. I must be misremembering. I wonder if another kid would have thought

that was a big deal. I can't really trust my feelings or my perception of things. And if I think about the other kind of form of self-talk that plays so many adults, it's that. It's wait, did that really happen? I'm gonna call five of my friends. I wonder if they would feel the other kind of form of self-talk that plague so many adults, it's that. It's wait, did that really happen? I'm gonna call five of my friends. I wonder if they would feel the way I would feel because I just don't know.

It's the legacy of a lack of trust that actually started from an adaptive place. So you could separate from this very painful reality and just keep going, but as adults holds us back in every way. And so when I think about those two coping mechanisms, if I don't prepare with my kid, self-doubt and self-blame will be wired in their body, I mean this because I don't, I want to get away from the heaviness of this. To me, I feel like a magician with my kids when I repair.

I'm like, I am going in and I am snatching out of your body. Self-blame, self-doubt, nope. I'm not letting you write that story, and I actually have the power to help you write a different story, to write the story of every relationship has hard moments. When other people treat you poorly, it is not your fault. And yes, that really did happen. You can trust your perceptions, and in your safest and most loving relationships,

you can expect the other person to take responsibility for their behavior and to come and try to reconnect. That is the story. I help right in my child's body when I repair. I'm now thinking about all the times I lost my shit with my kid and did not go back and repair. Is he permanently screwed? No, no, this is such a good point.

So you're getting to rise I was at to go. I know, me too. Me too. We hear these and we're like, that's interesting, fuck, right? It's like so like close, fuck. And you're like, I'm gonna end this podcast right now. I just gotta go repair the million of my life.

Okay, here's the thing. It is never, ever too late. This again, is that magical power. And when parents say, but do I bring it up? Like, it was years ago, or parents say to me, it's not like one thing. Like, now when I look back on my kids life, I feel like it was a pattern of things.

Like, whenever they were upset, I kind of sent them to their room. I really wasn't showing up in a more curious, understanding way. I feel like I missed out on years of building a relationship with my kid. No, we can repair for moments. We can repair for things happen a long time ago,

we can repair for patterns, right? And what you do when you repair, and then I'll share a script for how we might do this, is this is my image, Dan, like our kids, right? Like they're all of us, our bodies are like books, they're like stories with various chapters. And some chapters are very painful. And what we actually get to do when we repair for something that happened a long time ago is it's like, and I'm going to cry. Like, our kid with us gets to reopen that chapter. And we get to like go in with them and we can't cross out what happened. But we actually get to like add another piece to that chapter.

Like we actually ensure it has a different ending. And when you do this, you actually change the way the memory lives in the body. Repair is actually memory changing, okay? And it actually, even though it sounds like woo-woo, it makes perfect sense because it has the same impact as therapy, Right? We know from research that memory is not the recollection of events. It's actually the recollection of events coupled with every other time you've remembered that event, which means when you take an event that was initially stored with confusion and fear and aloneness and then lay around remembering that event in a safer relationship with explanation and understanding and connection and curiosity and love and coherence, which is what we give our kids when we help them understand. You actually change the memory because you change the story of the event.

And that's all our memories really are, our stories. And so what you're saying and everyone listening, like I hope you hear me saying, I'm excited for you, is oh my goodness, it is not too late, you're about to have one of the best moments you're ever gonna have with your kids. You get to say something like, hey, I listened to this thing, I learned something new.

First of all, we don't say that to our kids, and I learned something new today. And I really wanna tell you that can be a lot of things. I remember when I yelled at you a couple of weeks ago, where I think there were a lot of moments where I yelled or where I just kind of sent you to your room and I wasn't able to see that you were hurting. I wasn't able to see that you weren't giving me

a hard time, you were having a hard time. And I can't take all those moments back, but I wanna let you know that I wish I handled them differently. And I wanna handle those things differently going forward. And if you ever wanna talk to me about any of those moments, I'll listen, I'll listen to understand, I won't listen to robot, I won't listen to prove. I'll actually listen because they matter and you matter.

And I really would put money, and I'm not like a better, but I would put money on someone being like, that was one of the most meaningful moments I've had with my kid in the last 20 years. The idea that it's too late, like I always want to look people and I'm not like a shaker of people I promise, but I want to like shake them. Like, oh my goodness, it's too late. Like, your timing is impeccable. Your timing is impeccable. This can all happen right now. Do you think this applies to interpersonal dynamics among grown-ups? A hundred percent.

All of my ideas about kids, and I don't think people know this, actually come from the work I did at the DULT. So I actually haven't seen kids in therapy for a very long time, really since grad school. For years, in my prior practice, I worked with adolescents, I worked with adults, and I did a ton of couples therapy. And I even did work in consulting with organizations, because to me, again, a family system, a leadership system,

it's all a system. That's about building sturdy leaders. So what struck me is all the things I know really does change the course of an adult's life. I was like, why don't we just reverse engineer that information to parents? So you can get that information to kids right away, right? That's actually how I've come up with all my ideas about parenting. So yes, to me, the through line is very, very clear.

And here's something I was thinking about. This actually happened in a couple therapy session that I was in with a couple I was seeing. And we were talking about something about repair and the husband said to his wife, some version of, I don't know if you remember, but I'm thinking about this night early on after we had another second baby and you really needed help. And I was basically just yelling

you about how much work I had the next day and how I couldn't deal with it. Their kids were now like 10 and 12, okay. And he was like, I just think about that a lot. And like I've never said anything, but like that was not cool. And like that was not the type of partner that I want to be. And what she said to me, Dan, was so interesting in the course of this couple's therapy. She said, you've been thinking about that for 10 years. She was so touched by that.

You've been holding that in your mind, okay, you couldn't say something, but you've been thinking about me in that moment. And you've been feeling bad about it for 10 years. Like, that's so sacred when someone holds us in their mind. So yeah, so when you think about adult relationships, think about a friend calling you now and saying, I think about that time I didn't invite you

to that dinner eight years ago, and maybe you're not thinking about it anymore, but I have, and I'm sorry, I never said that to you. To me, almost, I don't mean this, but almost the longer the distance, the more it would impress me as an adult, like, wow, you really care about me. You really care about our relationship.

You've been holding that. And so, yes, all of this applies to partnerships, to friendships, to really tricky moments you've had with your in-laws, to that thing with your colleague. It's all the same stuff. Are there ever times where repair is not possible? Repair is something we offer someone. Something that is not a component of repair is when we think we're doing a repair,

but it's really a request for reassurance. So that's a repair that's like, hey, I did this and I'm sorry, it's okay now, right? Or is that okay? Like, are we good? You know, I do forgive me. Then all of a sudden you're like, wait, I thought you were offering me this moment of connection.

And now I feel like you're asking for something from me. So that never lands well. I actually think that's why I focus so much on self-repair. The reason most of us, after an apology, have a reassurance request is because we haven't actually accessed our own self-repair and our own goodness. So we're looking for someone else to give it to us. And people feel that.

And then it kind of totally changes the game. When you're actually really able to repair with yourself, you're able to offer a repair for someone. So then I guess the question is, is it ever too late to offer a repair? I think it's a different question. You'd be like, well, no, what's the impact going to be on someone else? We don't know. And I say this in the TED talk after I go through this exercise where I actually bring people

through an experience of imagining getting a repair from their actual parents or reading a letter of their parents, you know, or both deceased. I really don't know many people who don't have some reaction to that. And they would say because they're human and it makes sense, like, yeah, that wouldn't be a 180. Don't like, I'm like, oh, everything's good now. Let's go get some tea and, you know, hang out. No. But I really do think it hits somewhere, especially if it's a true repair without that reassurance request. But there are times where you've done something potentially so harmful or somebody's done something so harmful to you where repair may not be on the menu.

You will, I guess, they could offer a repair. How I want to receive that, whether I've developed boundaries that I feel like I need to protect myself. Yep, 100%. A hundred percent. Nobody is under any pressure if they are offered to repair, to open themselves up, to receiving it, sometimes continuing to have a boundary to protect yourself is really, really adaptive and important, 100%. And I think a lot of people's realities are probably somewhere in the middle. But I guess the point is, there's a difference in offering our parents never too late to offer a repair.

Even if there's, you know, I don't know, two adults out there who one of them is listening to think, like, I am gonna call that person. And like, I kind of am not expecting something in response because repair is such a powerful impact on the repair giver. It really does. It feels like you're finally acting in alignment with your values.

And to me, there's nothing in life that feels as good as when you act in alignment with your values. And when we act in alignment with our values, it's lovely. It's like icing on the cake when someone else receives us in that way and sees it. But there's also benefit to the individual and just acting in alignment in that way. And then yeah, it's all let down when someone might even understandably say, some version of like, yeah, I don't want to have this conversation. Like, yeah, I still don't want you in my life

or I can't hear that right now. But I actually still think for the repair giver, it's a meaningful moment. Coming up, Dr. Becky Kennedy talks about whether her trademark phrase, good inside, represents a thesis about becoming conditioned. Whether punishment is ever appropriate and a key tool you can use in moments of tension

which she refers to as the MGI. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on, so do sit back and enjoy. Brighten and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever you get your podcasts. Everyone leaves the legacy.

I like Mr Gorbachev. We can do business together. For some, the shadow falls across decades, even centuries. It is unacceptable to have figures like roads glorified. But it also changes. Reputations are reexamined by new generations who may not like what they find. Picasso is undeniably a genius, but also a less than perfect human. From Wundering and Goldhanger podcasts, I'm Afwahersh.

I'm Peter Frankertpern. And this is Legacy. A brand new show exploring the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. To find out what Bear Past tells us about our present. Nina Simone was constantly told to sit down and shut up. You're the angry black woman. The name of Napoleon still rings out in the pattern of the guides who thrive on the tourist trade.

Search and follow Legacy to listen to the full trailer. legacy to listen to the full trailer. What's the most important thing to be able to do? What's the most important thing to do? Quick reminder, don't miss the On the Go challenge, a seven-day meditation challenge to help you bring mindfulness into your daily life. Join the challenge right now by downloading the 10% happier app today and starting a free trial. Let's go back to something you talked about earlier.

Actually, it's come up a couple of times and it's a name of your book, the name of your podcast, good inside. Is that a claim about the human condition writ large? Yeah, I mean, I never thought of myself as a philosopher. I'm like, this single most practical person in the universe. This is actually happening when we went to Ted. Everyone who knows me is like, good luck, Becky. People talk about really smart things there and you're going to be like, I don't understand. Wait, I have to say, I sat at a table with you and Adam Grant and Manuel Acho and a bunch of people. And we were talking about big smart to you

and you were more than holding your own. You were holding court. So I don't know what those people were, why they were saying that to you. Well, like I don't hold myself as like a philosopher on humankind, but maybe I do because this stuff is all related.

So yes, but there's so much nuance here and things we collapse things so fast in our society, right? So yes, I do believe people are inherently good inside. I would take that side any day. I think when babies are born into the world, there is inherent goodness in them. I do. And I just want to be clear,

like that is not an excuse for bad behavior. That is not at all. It's not like I'm like, oh, my kid is good inside. They're smacking their brother. Like, well, such a good kid, of course not. Right? And it doesn't mean that I am a proponent

of permissive parenting. Again, these things get conflated so fast. Yes, I believe people are good inside, that they have inherent good identity. And to me, what's really exciting about that, besides the fact that I believe it, is it creates this gap. Okay. Someone's good inside. They just did this bad thing.

Why is my kid who's good inside lying to my face? Why is my kid who's good inside lying to my face? Why is my kid who's good inside smacking their sister? Why is my partner who's good inside so distant and so dismissive of everything I say? When we have a gap, to me, we can actually activate our curiosity. And to me, like, activating curiosity is the key to solving all problems.

And I can be really curious to people, okay, why is someone who's good doing this bad thing? And if I can hold both those truths at once, I can actually kind of approach the problem from a very, very different framework than when I, which is what we do unconsciously, when I use someone's bad behavior as an indication of their, in some ways, inherently bad identity. Now of a sudden, of course, I have an enemy. Now of a sudden, that guy's an asshole and my child's a sociopath.

And guess what? Then we interact with people from that framework, which leads us to really, really awful places. So in some ways, there's a self-interested case for taking the good inside worldview. Oh my goodness, more than anything. I'm like a very practical, efficient person. I am.

So yes, I think it's true, but I also think it's simply like much more effective of a world view than at least the world view we've been given about kids, which is the world view that no one says, but is underlying, what most of us are told to do with kids. Punish them, time out, ignore them,

reward them, stick her chart. No one ever says those point of views are based on the idea that kids are bad inside. Nobody says that, but they are. And the fact that they don't say that to me actually makes those ideas way more insidious because you can't actually understand the framework with which they're based.

Punishment is never appropriate. I'm not a big fan of like such, you know, rigidity, but I'm gonna answer the question I wanna answer if that's okay, okay. So like, if you don't answer the question, I want you to answer, I'm like, I'm back to it. But go for it. Okay, if you can come back to it, I like,

as you know, from that dinner, I like some intellectual sparring, that's true. Okay, that's true. That's true. So, to me, let's ground this in a situation. So, I don't know, what would your kid do or what would my kid do? That you're like, is a punishment not appropriate? Yeah, so I'd think it would my son, if it takes me five times to ask him to do something simple, I might say, look, there's going to be a consequence if I have to ask you again.

And you might lose five minutes for your iPad time or something like that. Great, great, great. And again, this is just how we've all been raised to raise our kids. This is just like everywhere. So we've all been so influenced by so many ideas that I believe are false that are almost underlying that.

Okay, so to me, the thing that's missing about a punishment is again, if I'm one for effectiveness is to some degree I have to believe, okay, my kid's not listening and if I kind of give him a punishment, if I basically deliver him negative feelings after that will de facto the next time help him listen and then we'll be having better listening in our house. Okay. First of all, most people I talk to who are on a schedule of a lot of punishments, are like, yeah, that's like not really happening. I just like, I don't know, keep saying punishments.

My kids, it's not really changing. But I don't even understand the timeline of it. Like, okay, something happened. So that my kid isn't listening. Like, there's a reason before then they're not listening happens. and I'm delivering a kind of random consequence after. Which means on some level I assume the next time, the best way to help my kid change behavior is he's going to be not listening, and he's going to wait a second, wait a second. If I don't listen, in 10 minutes, I'm going to get my iPad time short end, and I don't want that. So knowing that, I'm going to get my iPad time short end and I don't want that.

So knowing that, I'm going to listen. Like I don't know about your kid. I just, I don't even know almost adults who think that way. Wait a second. If I yell at my husband here, he will be upset. So let me take a deep breath and actually talk to him in a more respectful way. Punishment's after to me. Just don't even make sense as a way to change what would happen before.

So I'm like, why don't we think about what's happening before? Plus, when you punish a kid, more than anything else, a kid will not remember what we did or what we say. They will remember the version of themselves we reflect back to them. In child development, and I feel like some of my parent needs to know, we're a kids mirror. We show them who they are, and that is how they form their identity. And so often, I'm not saying this is your son, kids who have a lot of bad behavior, over and over.

Basically, their set of interactions shows them, you're a bad kid. You're a bad kid, go to your room, you're selfish, we even say these things, these kids. And like in some ways, we're reinforcing an identity that we want our kid to move away from it. That also doesn't make sense. So the reason I don't think punishment makes sense, isn't because I'm a softie. No one who knows me would say I'm soft. That's the last word someone would say.

It's just not only threatens your relationship with your kid, threatens their self-esteem, but also as a prologue, it just actually doesn't even work to change behavior. So again, if we get to that gap, I do something. And to me, this is my go-to strategy, the idea of good and side to action. It's called MGI, most generous interpretation.

What is my most generous interpretation of why my son isn't listening? Most punishments are based on an LGI. We don't realize why would we punish a kid because we're like, they could listen. They just don't wanna do it, they don't respect me, right? It's very easy to come up with all these generous interpretation.

But if we come up with a most generous interpretation, which is a muscle we need to build, they don't respect me, right? It's very easy to come up with all these gender stripper tation. But if we come up with a most gender stripper tation, which is a muscle we need to build, most people when they start, they're like, I couldn't even come up with one. It doesn't mean you're cold. It probably means no one used a most gender stripper tation with you when you were struggling. But I might come up with this.

There's something about leaving going to school. That is hard. I might say to myself, okay, if I was messing around in my house and my husband's like, Becky, let's leave. Becky, let's leave. Becky, let's leave. I asked you five times, let's leave. Why would I not listen?

I'd be like, number one, I would just find that really annoying. Okay, number two, he's probably yelling on the other side of the house while he's like on his phone. I don't know, maybe the state of our relationship isn't like that great in that moment. Maybe I actually don't know what leaving entails. There could be so many things for a kid. Maybe they actually don't understand the order of operations.

Like, where's my stuff? Maybe they do feel like, my parents on their phone the whole time, they're totally disconnected to me, they're just kind of barking orders. Maybe they feel like I hate school. Maybe they feel like I have no control in agency in any area of my life.

So at least this is one area where I can push back to just feel like my own independent person. And I just want to say, none of these things, which come from being curious, means the behavior is okay. But if we don't understand where a problem behavior comes from, we cannot successfully intervene to change the behavior. It would be like trying to teach someone how to make a basketball shot

without understanding, like, is it their positioning? Is it their hands? Is it their hands? Is it that they're not strong enough? You have to understand the behavior. We confuse this too, especially in America. In attempt to understand a behavior, it feels like it's condoning a behavior. It's bizarre. It's just not the same thing.

If you want to teach a kid how to read, you have to understand if it's a phonic issue or a frustration tolerance issue. It doesn't mean it's okay that they're not reading. It actually means you're trying to help them read. So the reason I don't like punishments is does none of that. It basically says, I think you're a bad kid. I'm not actually teaching you a skill

because if I have a most generous interpretation then, for example, I might say, it's actually just overwhelming to get to school. I might say to my kid, mornings have been hard. I always ask you to put things on, you're not listening, but here's the thing, well on the same team, you're a good kid, I'm gonna do something.

I'm just gonna put on a little chart by your front door. And I'm gonna also put your socks in like a basket by the door, because I know sometimes it's hard to remember. I'm gonna do it for mine too. And it's just gonna say, water bottle, put it in your backpack, socks, shoes, out the door by 7.45. We're gonna see if that helps.

And the other thing I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna say this to myself, is, I'm gonna actually put my phone down for the 20 minutes in the morning. I'm going to leave it in my room. I'm actually like, talk to my kid, be present. I'm going to see how those things go. And none of that happens when you punish a kid. And I think it's easy to say, oh, so it's because I'm on my phone that my kid isn't listening.

To me, that's just like the most, again, least gender-centred interpretation, even of this approach. It's actually something very different, which is my kids behavior has a reason, and I'm the leader of the family. And so if I wanna help my kid figure things out and change the system, leadership always comes from the top. And so doing that little bit of reflection

strengthens your relationship with your kid, and I would bet with an, and I really mean this, the changes so fast. People are like, my kids started listening in two days. Like literally, I took your listening workshop two days later, they were listening about like everything. It's just, it can be so fast when the approach actually makes sense. Let me just see if I can restate that.

Your approach to getting kids to listen to you is start with the MGI, the most generous interpretation, and then engineer a solution from there. Yes, that's exactly right. Engineer a solution that's always based in the thought that like, I have a good kid. So something must just feel off. We often don't think about kids as humans. We don't.

We're like the same needs, right? Because Dan, if you were witnessing in my house, if I was like sitting on the couch reading a book when my three kids were finally asleep, which like never happens, but let's say I had some glorious evening, it happened. And then my husband was like, hey, Becky, can you go get me a glass of water in the kitchen? And he was sitting on the couch, too. If I was like, oh, like, no, I'm like, I'm reading my book or something. And he was like, you have no, I'm reading my book or something. And he was like, you have a listening problem and I'm shortening your iPad time. Or today.

I feel like, I don't imagine you Dan being like, okay, I think you have a listening problem. I think you'd be like, your husband's an asshole. I think that you'd say to me, that's gaslighting. If anyone has a problem, he has a problem. I mean, you didn't do what he wanted you to do. I guess you didn't comply, but it's pretty aggressive to say that you have a listening problem.

Meanwhile, had me and my husband very close that day, and I don't know, I was talking about something, and I felt like he was listening, and he put his phone down, and he's like, oh, that sounds hard instead of saying, like, it's not a big deal, right? And then he asked me, like, that sounds hard instead of saying, like, it's not a big deal. Or, right? And then he asked me, like, I don't know, I bet I would do it because I felt close to him. Right. We listen to people because we feel close to them or because we feel scared of them.

It's the only reason we listen to people. And we do not want to wire fear next to love for a million, but trillion reasons with our kids. So the only good option we have for our kids to listen is that they feel connected to us. And we have to work to make that happen. So no fear is ever good. Sometimes I feel like it's better be fear than love. No, no, I don't feel that. But there are, you know, once a month, like, and this is probably just me being shitty, but once a month, once every quarter, I don't know, once in a blue moon, I feel like being a little old testament can

wake my son up out of just being super stubborn and non-compliant. I think sometimes it's not that deep and they need to, and this is maybe delusion. So I'm saying it out loud for you to take pot shots at it. Most of the time, yes, there's interesting psychological currents. The MGI makes a ton of sense. I'm going to use that. But sometimes it's not that deep. They're just testing the limits or there's something going on with his mom and he's messing

with her and manipulating her. And I'm just like, dude, in the car now. Yeah. I mean, first of all, nothing about my parenting approach, nothing about good inside again. He's like soft. It's not like always like, wait, but let me use the most generous interpretation.

No, I would say our approach is 50% connection through validation and empathy, and 50% connection through boundaries, real boundaries, sturdy boundaries, firm boundaries that come from embodying your appropriate authority. I think we misunderstand fear interactions from boundary interactions. Most of the time, we put fear into our kids.

It really comes from a place of desperation as a parent and kids smell that. Like when we yell, go to the car, like we're really like, I don't know what to do, like I really don't have anything left, I'm feeling kinda desperate right now. And so, the first of all, like again, not all's lost, like no one, everyone like says stuff to their kids,

me too. And I don't mean to insinuate, there's always time for processing. I actually think most parents don't understand what real boundaries are, it's probably one of the biggest thing we help parents with, because boundaries have to be an equal part to parenting as like all the kind of, quote, warm stuff.

To me, boundaries are also from a place of warmth because they're from a place of protection. Give an example, because I have a feeling boundaries are a pleasure. Well, I really was, I found a very compelling what you said about why my son or any kid wouldn't want to put their shoes on to go to school or to leave the house for any number of things.

I found the MGI to be very compelling there. But sometimes it's like, okay, you're on the sixth or seventh time and maybe he's got some sort of ancient Fendetta he's acting out against his mom who's traditionally the person doing the asking or whatever. And usually he is a good listener.

So this isn't like a hugely chronic problem, but once in a while he's just not listening to her and my interpretation, maybe it's the LGI in this moment is that he's just fucking with her. And I'm just like, I don't know, yeah, I'm just like, dude, do it now. Yeah. I don't understand why are we asking like, dude, do it now. Yeah. I don't understand why we asking you this much.

Not like you need any permission, but like, yeah, like full permission, I say that to my good to do. We need to do this now. Come on, this has to happen now. We can talk about it later. We've got to move this along. Yes, but I think there's some fear there. Well, I think he's a little bit more scared of me than he is of her.

So then he listens to me. Well, then look, that could be separate. Like a lot of women, and to me again, I think that what's helpful for women is the way I model this. I'm like probably not a traditionally feminine in the way that like I actually really feel like I can embody my authority. And like expressive boundary, a lot of women have been socialized for generations to not be able to do that because in some ways their worth was defined by their lack of boundaries and their total taken care of everyone else,

so it's hard to access that as a mom. So gender differences definitely could be up play. But like, here's an example where I'm thinking like boundaries versus fear. First of all, I just want to define a boundary because I think it's so powerful in every area of our life. A boundary is something we tell someone we will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. That is really important. And if you think about a time you're setting a boundary, if it would require anyone else to do anything, it is not a boundary.

It is a request, and we make requests of people all the time, but it is not a boundary. It is a request and we make requests of people all the time, but it is not a boundary. And the times we tend to get most frustrated with our kids and probably like, induce some fear because then we end up like exploding with rage. It's a time I think we think we're setting up a boundary and we're actually making a request. And in that way, we're actually asking our kid to do our job for us and we're not actually embodying our authority in the situation. So like an example, like get off the couch. We don't jump on the couch.

Get off the couch. I said, get off the couch. I said, get off the couch or I'm going to whatever the thing is. That's scary versus get off the couch. Can you please get off the couch? Whatever I say the first time my kid doesn't. Hey, look, I'm seeing you having a hard time getting off the couch. I'm going to walk over to you. And if by the time seeing you having a hard time getting off the couch. I'm gonna walk over to you.

And if by the time I get there, you're not off the couch, I will put my hand around you. I'm gonna put you on the floor, sweetie, and I'll show you a safe or place you can jump. That's a boundary. I never let myself get to the point where I'm exploding. Cause in a way, I often think of this.

Like, I'm watching my kid jump on the couch. I'm now watching them not able to cooperate. And now I'm asking them, can you do the thing you're showing me you're unable to do? Like it would be like knowing my kid runs into the city streets being like, can you not run into the city streets? Like I would just make sure they didn't run

into the city streets. That's a boundary and it does come from fear. It actually comes from protecting my kid. For all I know, they're jumping on the couch right near a glass table and they can fall. Like it actually comes from love. That to me is what's missing. We think love is just,

oh, you really want to jump on the couch and I understand that is. But that is an incomplete parenting strategy. If it's not coupled with actual firm boundaries, they're equally as important. This is all incredibly helpful to me as a parent. Let me just go to this boundary request thing. So how does that apply to the perennial parenting problem

of put your fucking shoes on? We got to go. Or we got to go whether your shoes are on or not and you're refusing to leave. Like, that's, these are requests. So how do you not blow up when those requests are not being complied with? Great. So I think that's actually really important because when we recognize it's a request, first of all, usually we make requests of people when actually safety is an issue.

When safety is an issue, we set up injury. Like, we put our seatbelt on our kit because they have to, even if they're screaming. Right, when it's a request, I mean, I'm just gonna say, as kids are always listening to requests. And the truth is, I don't know one adult who when they have a kid who's 25 is gonna be bragging to their friends,

my kid is so compliant. He listens to everything, everyone asks of him, he's so amazing. Like, it's so not what we actually feel proud of. Like, we say my kid is so independent and assertive and they can speak up for themselves. Well, you can't raise kids to be compliant and subservient and expect them to be confident and assertive.

And also, if you want kids to be confident and assertive, you can't expect them to listen all the time. So some degree we have to set expectations. There's many times when my kids don't want to put their shoes on and it doesn't mean they're disrespectful. Like, I always think it's so centering of ourselves. Like my kid is not putting on their shoes because they don't respect me as a person.

Like it's a pretty grand interpretation. They're not putting it on, I don't know. They don't want to go to school that day. They got distracted. They, you know, are like the times we're sometimes late for a meeting when we don't want to be late. It's usually not because we don't respect someone because I don't know, shit got on the way.

So what I would say there to avoid that explosion is we can't wait until we're in the moment where we're about to explode and expect ourselves to act in some amazingly magnanimous way. We can be like, well, what do I do instead of explode? I'd be like, I don't know, I'll get through it. That's like the best I got, to be honest. The better question is, what can I do outside the moment

to limit the likelihood that we get into that moment?? That, to me, feels like a very compelling question. And that is when I'd have some type of family meeting with my son, right? Family meetings, me are one of the most underutilized strategies. And I've done this with my kids starting at such a young age. People like, you think your kid can understand that? It's a question that bugs me the most. I'm saying, first of all, I want my kid to understand things. So I'm going to act as if they do. And then they'll start understanding them earlier. But kids always understood when they're being treated with respect, they always do. Like just like honestly, we could be in a foreign country not being able to speak the language. And we would know who's coming up to us in a magnanimous way. And who

wasn't giving us the time of day. Language doesn't matter. So what I'd say there is I'd approach your son outside the moment. and I'd start like this. Hey, you know, mornings have been a shit show, right? Mornings have been a disaster, whichever language is, you know, the language you're using your home. Mornings have been a disaster. And like what generally happens is I ask you put it on your shoes and I probably ask again and I ask again.

And then eventually I yell and you kind of yell back and like we both kind of like yell and maybe one of us cries and then we're like have a horrible car to school. And then I say, I love you and like, I don't know. I just feel like we can do that better. So here's the thing though, that you might not have heard from me. I actually think you're my teammate in this.

And I'm thinking about how we do things at work. And when things happen at work, especially over and over that don't go well, we have a meeting of all key stakeholders. And the reason we do that is because all key stakeholders have good ideas. And you're a key stakeholder here, I'm a key stakeholder. And so I want to have a meeting.

Not right now, let's actually schedule it. And time that good, okay, so it's me Sunday night. Okay, and we're gonna do that. Okay, first of all, already you've changed the problem. I mean, again, think about like if someone came up to you that way, you're like, it's completely different from how we usually approach someone when we're in conflict. And then the way it started meeting, and there is a little bit of a structure to this, as I'd say, okay, so here from how we usually approach someone when we're in conflict. And then the way it started meeting,

and there is a little bit of a structure to this, as I'd say, okay, so here's how we're gonna do this meeting. The goal is to think about how to make mornings just a little more smoother. How to go from asking you to put in your shoes five times to one, maybe two times, even. I'd go for three, how we're gonna get there. And the first thing we're gonna do

is brainstorm ideas about what can make it easier. I'm gonna have ideas, you're gonna have ideas. At first, all ideas are good ideas, and I'm gonna write all them down. And Dan, you would have to go with the pad. Writing something down when you're in conflict with someone, it immediately makes things 90% better. Because again, imagine if you're in a fight with your wife

about something you're really mad about and she's like, one second, I just wanna write down everything you say. It really matters, I understand everything. I don't know about you, I'd be like, we're good. You're the best wife ever. Done. So write everything down. And a little trick I always say to parents

is you start with number one and make it something ridiculous that will make the other person laugh. And so you're now holding the whole thing in playfulness, which always makes problems all the more effective. So I would start maybe here by saying, OK, I have an amazing idea. I think we can just get this like major trampoline. And like, I don't know, like you're gonna jump on it once

and like you don't even need the car, you don't even need shoes. And it's just like, gonna take you right to school. I'm just gonna, I don't know. I don't know, all ideas are good ideas, right? And then I literally write down one, major trampoline, I don't know something like that. Okay, and then number two, usually after you lead

with that your kid will share something. It's like you're connecting, there's playfulness, they'll share something. And maybe they say, I don't have to put my shoes to go to school. And like, what does the parent want to say back? I think that's absurd. But you don't say that. I'll have a write that down.

Once you've written down an idea that they think you'll reject already, you're building what I call connection capital. The more connection capital you build, the more you have to draw down on. And we draw down on connection capital. Every time we ask someone to do something, they don't want to do an marriage at work. And so as parents, we are very, very big connection capital

with drawers, which means we have to be bigger connection capital, the positives, it's just the math. And so then by number three, usually you can get something reasonable. Set an alarm that goes off 10 minutes before I have to leave. And when the alarm goes off, we put our shoes on. Okay, number four, any other ideas.

Try to get to like seven ideas. We have a shoe race, you know, me and you. And it's whoever can get them on faster. Kids always love races. It's like I'm kind of collaborative and fun instead of annoying. Maybe another idea you'd say is, hey, I know this sounds ridiculous. Maybe like, how is this related? But I'm gonna write down this idea of,

dad doesn't have his phone for the 10 minutes before you leave, so we can actually get good time together because I don't know, I probably wouldn't want to like put on my shoes and leave if I hadn't really spent time with someone. Okay, and then you review the list. And be like, okay, number one, trampoline. You know what, sweetie, that was my personal go-to.

It's just probably a couple of years out, so, ooh, it's gonna just have to cross that off. Okay, number two, you know, never put on your shoes and this is where a boundary is helpful. And this is one of my favorite lines as a parent. My number one job is to keep you safe. I don't know if I've said that to you, but it is. Like I like when you're happy,

but my number one job is to keep you safe. I take that very seriously. And actually I love you so much that I will always prioritize it, making you safe, over making you happy, even if you're upset with me. And so, like, leaving for school without shoes, it's just not something I could do,

because that's my number one job. So I'm just gonna have to, like, put a lecture number two, okay, number three. And like, you can see, by the time you get through this, and like, this whole thing really does just take as long as I'm modeling, like, it's like a family meeting, it's usually like five minutes.

It'll feel so good with your kid. You will actually come up with something, and then the next day, you actually have this idea. Will it be magic? Will you call me and be like, oh my goodness, all every problem is solved. This morning was so smooth. Probably not, but I also wouldn't be surprised

if you were like that literally reduced friction in the morning by 95%. Coming up, Dr. Becky talks about applying her MGI or most generous interpretation to adults and whether she is personally able to practice what she preaches in her own life. What a life these celebrities lead. Imagine walking the red carpet, the cameras in your face, the designer clothes, the worst dress list, the big house, the world constantly peering in,

the bursting bank account, the people trying to get the grubby mitts on it. What's he all about? I'm just saying, being really, really famous. It's not always easy. I'm Emily Lloyd-Sainey, and I'm Anna Leong-Rofi, and we're the hosts of Terribly Famous from Wondery, the podcast which tells the stories of our favourite celebrities from their

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Hey everybody, it's Dan on 10% happier. I like to teach listeners how to do life better. I want to try. Oh hello Mr. Grinch. What would make you happier? Ah, let's see. And out of business sign at the North Pole, or a nationwide ban on caroling and noise, noise, noise. What would really make me happy is if I didn't have to host a podcast. That's right, I got a podcast too.

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Are you able to apply MGI, most generous interpretation to grown-ups? Oh, my goodness. Yes. So recently, I got a DM from someone who said, and my team alerted me to this, right? They're a bunch of DMs and they're like, I just never seen this one. And they're like, are you a management consultant, Dr. Becky? And like, I had to jump on the DM and I just go back, like, I'm not.

But like, I just would love to know what made you think that I work at McKinsey or something. And your book was the number one book recommended in my management consulting Slack group. That's what he wrote me. And I wrote, you know what, I take that back. I am a management consultant. I am.

Because not only does MGI apply to me, the idea of boundaries, to me, the idea of boundaries, to me, the idea of two things are true, the ability to hold multiple truths at once, to me, the idea of being a shame detective, noticing when shame is really taken over from someone, in which case we have to totally change course and how we talk to them.

It applies to human relationships. So I happen to love right now at this point in my life, to think about relationships between parent and kids, but yes, the ideas are everywhere. So MGI is the most powerful tool in any relationship. Because what it really does is it forces us to see the good person under their not-so-good behavior. And if you're in a relationship with a person,

you wanna be in a relationship with. Again, I would never say the most generous interpretation of this person who's abusive to me is that they're actually, you know, in pain and so it's okay that they talked to me that way. No, of course not. Right, we have to like consider ourselves in our needs. But often, MGI gets is very useful in relationships you do really care about and are safe relationships, right?

So, okay, I said to my partner, your home late again, you said you'd come home for bath, okay? And my partner says back to me, someone's got to work around here. Okay, let's just take that interaction. If both partners paused and the MGI muscle, let me be clear, has to be built after the fact before it is accessible to us in the moment, right? So let's say that night I'm looking back and I'm saying, okay, my partner said, you said you'd be home for bath and you weren't. Like you lied or something.

What is my most generous interpretation? My least generous interpretation is my partner does not understand how busy I am and does not appreciate my contribution to the family. My most generous interpretation would probably be, my partner feels really overwhelmed in bath time alone. I could cry at like this softening, like, oh, oh. Okay, and then the opposite, when I say back,

someone has to work around here and someone has to make money and then say, okay, I do love my partner and that was not a good moment. What's my most generous interpretation? I think he felt attacked by me in that moment, and I wasn't seeing the way they contributed to this family. It probably felt like I was saying you're a bad dad, you're a bad mom.

Okay, like if you actually think about what would happen after, like, and I really mean this, like, you could go to a partner and say, hey, I'm thinking back to that interaction. And just pause a second because I'm trying to actually see it from your perspective. When I said to you, you're not home, you lied. I wonder if it almost felt like I was saying you're a bad person.

You don't care about this family because I can understand that's totally not what I meant. Because then when I think about what you said back, it almost is more responsive to that. This actually is a lot of what happens in like couples work, right? Same thing, you know, in an office. Why is this person keeping late?

Like to approach them with a most generous interpretation would be very different than an LGI. LGI, you approach that person and I work being like, hey, you're always late, like this cannot continue. And like this is totally unacceptable. I'm gonna dock your pay. I don't know, most generous I, you, you, wrote that person I worked being like, hey, you're always like it. Like this cannot continue. And like this is totally unacceptable. I'm in a doc your pay. I don't know. Most generous interpretation would say,

hey, I really do believe you're dedicated to this company and you want to do a good job. And like I feel like something's getting in the way of showing up here on time. And I'm your teammate. And I would just love to, you know, I'd love to talk that out with you. Let's figure that out together.

Like I think we all know, is going to be productive based on using that tool. This has been incredibly useful conversation in many ways. I have two questions I always ask at the end. One is, is there something I should have asked but didn't? I guess a question that the first first thing I came to mind is, Becky, how often do you use actually all these things in your own family and I'm glad you asked that question because I got to share with everyone.

Like, not always, my husband always, like, and you met him at that dinner, he's always like, I always wanna tag your personal Instagram and your Dr. Becky Instagram because I'm always like, I always wanna tag your personal Instagram and your Dr. Becky Instagram because I'm always like, you should watch this one's videos. They really help you because the thing you're doing with our kid

is not so effective. So, my kids do not have Dr. Becky as a parent. And I thank God for that. That would be so awkward for them. And so, we're all just trying to do some of this stuff, some of the time. Okay, so I answered that question. What's your second?

Yeah, just to say in support of you, I, many people in my life point out where there's a delta between what I talk about on Instagram or on this podcast and the way I actually behave. So that's right. What people don't know is all these public figures. They are publicly working through the things that are hard for them. That's the things that they've mastered. And I'm the first to share that.

Yes, well said. Second question is, can you please remind everybody of whatever resources you're putting out in the world that we should know about your TED Talk, your book, your podcast, please just plug away? Okay, yeah, there's so many things. And I love connecting with parents and hearing their stories. So please do reach out. So Instagram is quick follow Dr. Becky at Good Inside. Come find me on Threads, come find me on Twitter, all the places. Goodinside.com is really the hub for everything else, right?

I love Instagram, but to me, I always say parents deserve, they deserve better than random tips on social media, the most important jobs. So what I really set out to do in my biggest project is creating a membership for parents. It's really a whole platform that can give you deeper dives when you need them. Most of the time we don't need that. We need kind of regularly accessible quick scripts and strategies and kind of things to help stop the spiral.

And I really am aiming to be a parent's co-pilot from zero to 18. I feel like we really deserve that support. And so our membership is at www.cuntanside.com, free weekly emails at www.cuntanside.com, my own podcast, my TED Talk. You can find all of it there. Thank you, Becky.

Thanks, Dan. Thanks again to Dr. Becky, big fan, newly converted fan, but an ardent one, she's really fantastic. Thank you to you for listening. Go give us a rating or a review, please. That would be super helpful. And thanks most of all to everybody who works so hard on this show. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justine Davie, Lauren Smith, and Tara Anderson.

DJ Cashmere is our senior producer, Marissa Schneidermann is our senior editor, Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production, and Kimmy Regler is our executive producer, Alicia Mackie, leaves our marketing and Tony Mangar is our director of podcasts, our fearless leader Nick Thorburn of Islands, wrote our theme. We'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode from the legendary executive coach and former venture capitalist practicing Buddhists and a very good friend of mine and frequent flyer on the show Jerry Kallona with some deep and provocative success strategies. If you like 10% happier, I hope you do.

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working today to ensure tomorrow is on. And bridge, life takes energy. Hey there, I know that life is full of challenges, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. A Stuart Fluss for one said that no man is more unhappy than he who never faces adversity for he is not permitted to prove himself. I'm Ryan Holiday, the best-selling author and host of the Daily Stoke Podcast, a podcast where I break down the ancient teachings from the stoic philosophers so you can apply their thinking to the problems of modern life.

On the Daily Stoke, you'll find everything from insightful conversations to people like Matthew McConnay and Gary Vee on how they've used stoicism in their own life to short 10-minute teachings on how to deal with fear and build better habits. Ancient philosophy doesn't have to be this inaccessible and practical thing. On the Daily Stoke, you can learn how to bring the values of stoicism into your own life one day at a time. Follow the Daily Stoke on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and add free right now on Wondery Plus.