Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - How to Set Boundaries | Nedra Glover Tawwab

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

A comprehensive strategy for setting and maintaining boundaries—and respecting other people’s boundaries.Nedra Glover Tawwab, MSW, LCSW, is the author of bestsellers Drama Free and Set Boundaries, Find Peace. She is a licensed therapist, and sought-after relationship expert and has practiced relationship therapy for 15 years. Tawwab is the founder and owner of the group therapy practice, Kaleidoscope Counseling. In this episode we talk about:The definition of boundariesLeading with love when it comes to boundary settingTawwab’s taxonomy of boundariesHow to summon the courage to set and maintain boundaries, even when it's hardHow to respect other people's boundaries, even when they aren't clear about what they might be Related Episodes:How to Handle Family Drama | Nedra Glover TawwabSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/nedra-glover-tawwab-2023-rerunSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. I have, and I'm sure you have heard the word boundaries a million times. To me, at least it always sounded like something people Yammer on about on daytime talk shows, no disrespect to daytime talk shows. I love going on those shows. But anyway, I had no idea what the word actually meant or whether it was a serious concept

at all. My guest today has broken the idea of boundaries down into three levels and six types. Nedra Tawab is a social worker and the New York Times bestselling author of Set Boundaries Find Peace, which she followed up with a workbook on boundaries. And in this interview, she's going to talk us through how we can summon the courage to set and maintain boundaries, even when it's hard and how to respect other people's boundaries even when they are not clear about what they might be.

It's fascinating stuff. I found it very useful. Just to say before we dive in here that today's episode kicks off two weeks of a series that we call Deep Cuts. It's where we dip into our vast archive to provide you some much needed sanity during the holiday season. Please enjoy. I always look forward to a ride on my Peloton bike. Unleash yourself. Ride, run, box, or freak the hit out. It's your workout, your rules.

For Peloton's December offer, head to www.1peloton.ca slash deals. All access membership separate, Terms Apply. Hello listeners, this is Mike Corey of Against the Odds. You might know that I adventure around the world while recording this podcast. And over the years, I've learned that where I stay when I travel can make all the difference. Airbnb has been my go-to place for finding the perfect accommodations. Because with hotels, you often don't have the luxury of extra space or privacy. Recently, I had a bunch of friends come down to visit in Mexico.

We found this large house and the place had a pool, a barbecue, a kitchen, and a great big living room to play cards, watch movies, and just chill out. It honestly made all the difference in the trip. It felt like we were all roommates again. The next time you're planning a trip, whether it's with friends, family, or yourself, check out Airbnb to find something you won't forget. We can't see tomorrow, but we can hear it. And it sounds like a wind farm powering homes across the country.

We're bridging to a sustainable energy future, working today to ensure tomorrow is on. And bridge, life takes energy. Nedra Tawab, thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I would love to start if you're up for it with a little of your biography, because as I understand it, there's something of a story behind why you got interested in the subject of boundaries. Are you comfortable telling that story? Yes, I grew up in Detroit and when I was in undergrad, I noticed that I was having some challenges with people pushing back against my boundaries,

so I would set a boundary and I would have so much guilt that I would reneg on my boundary pretty much. When I started grad school they suggested if you're going to be a therapist you should go to therapy. And so I went to therapy and I was talking to the therapist and she mentioned boundaries and I was like what is this and she's, that's the struggle you're having. And we talked about how to deal with the discomfort around setting boundaries. She really normalized a lot of the things

that I wanted and I needed and how those things were healthy for me. I didn't know that because people were really upset. It was like, oh my gosh, you're being so mean. What do you mean? You don't want to loan me any money. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a terrible person. I don't even have it, but I should give. So to have a therapist really affirmed that what you're doing is healthy for you, it made it more comfortable for me to set boundaries with others. So as I began my work as a therapist, I noticed so many people struggling with the same issues and their relationships and how those things were causing them anxiety, depression, frustration, burnout, and so many other issues.

Let's define boundaries. What are they? Boundaries are needs and expectations that make you feel safe and comfortable in your life and in your relationships. They can be verbal requests, they can be behavioral, but most importantly is something that helps you to feel comfortable and safe. And with that, that means that everybody's boundaries are going to be different. Some of us love hugging people and others, you know, it's like, hey, I prefer to, you

know, shake your hand. I don't really like to hug people. So everyone's boundaries could be a little bit different and that's why it's really important that we wonder about other folks' boundaries and that we respect them. Looking at your materials and you'll correct me if I'm wrong here. I see, you do a lot of very useful categorization in this sphere of boundaries. And I see that you've got three levels of boundaries and six types of boundaries. Can you describe these various levels and types?

Yes, so the levels are porous, rigid, and healthy. Porous boundaries are the one where basically we have no boundaries. We're allowing everything to sort of flow through. Sometimes we have an issue with that. Typically, people with porous boundaries report being frustrated, burnout, and overwhelmed because they are never saying no. They are never speaking up for themselves. They're always saying yes to whatever anyone else wants.

That is where the people pleases lie. With rigid boundaries, there's this sense of like counter dependency, I can do it on my own, or I don't need anyone's help. I can figure it out. And that's unhealthy because it really keeps people from being in community with you when you're saying, no, no, I don't need anything. These rules apply to everything, right? So if we say, I never loan anyone money.

Ever? Not even a friend who can pay it back, not even if you go out to dinner as someone forgot their wallet because there are people who have very strict rules that shouldn't be applied to everyone and everything. And those are the folks with rigid boundaries. And then we have healthy boundaries where we are able to say yes and no when we need to, we're able to consider the person and their abilities in our boundaries because sometimes we don't need certain boundaries with people. You can have a boundary of please call before you stop by but you may not need that with everyone. So you don't need to tell everyone, hey, here is my room. You may need to say it to some folks and not others. Boundaries are really important because it lets you know what work

you can do. And within those levels, we have different areas where we need boundaries. In the areas are intellectual. That is what we're talking about and how we're able to speak about certain things. It's important that we're able to have differences in thought. Sometimes when we express that, I don't really like that TV show, people can get really upset. They think it's the end all be all. There is something wrong with you for not liking these things. So we have to allow people to be a little different. With sexual boundaries, there are certain parameters that should not be crossed. There are some things that are just illegal, right? And then there are other things where people may find a great area of why wasn't, I wasn't being inappropriate, but the person thought it was inappropriate.

They're a physical boundary. So again, there are laws around physical boundaries, especially with children, domestic violence. We have to be comfortable physically with people. That was a big thing in the pandemic with six feet, right? It's like, you know, there's a certain level of space that I'm requiring right now. And I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, there was so much conversation around, what do you say when someone is too close in line to you? What do you say when someone is not pulling up their masks? Those are all physical boundary issues. Emotional boundaries is another area.

And this is where we're able to talk about what we feel. So often in society, I hear people say, they shouldn't feel that way, or that wasn't a big deal. I don't know why they're upset about that. And with our emotions, we are entitled to feel, however we feel feel because those feelings are based on our experiences, the narratives that we have are upbringing in so many things. So it's really not appropriate to tell someone how they should feel because we don't know why

they're feeling that way. But it's something that's commonly done. Oh, don't be upset, especially with kids. I see it all the time. Oh, it's not that bad. That doesn't really hurt. And it's like, it probably really hurts. Like, you don't have their lick. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt you. But I can't recall how it was to be a five year old hit my knee. I can only recall how it feels now. And as an adult, how I choose to continue on with my day, but with a child, we don't know, but we tail people how to feel in conversations so often that is just like second nature. Oh, don't, don't feel that way.

Don't do this. Material boundaries. Those are our possessions. Those are the things that I don't want to say we feel some ownership over, but sometimes our possessions, cars, money, how we deal with those things is really important and how we allow other people to treat those things because there are times when you may have a car and you love your car, you wash it every week and I've seen this where you will park at the end of the parking lot because you don't want anybody to open a car door and hit that car.

So our possession sometimes are really important to us so how people are treating those things. We may have to verbalize when you take my car, please be cautious about this thing, or I don't want you to borrow my car. These sort of things, I know as a person who is now in another city, I do have people come visit, and so being really considered around,

do I want to loan my car out or do, do I want folks to Uber? That is a boundary. And so just being conscious of what you do and don't want to do with your things is very, very important. Time boundaries are the one that I think we have the most issues with for ourselves and for others. We have this expectation of people being available. I think cell phones increase that, social media increases that. I've certainly had people say, hey, I sent you a text message, but I'm calling because you didn't respond to my text.

Or I sent you a message on Instagram. And now I'm emailing because you didn't respond right away to my message. And so we can have boundaries as to when we respond. We can have boundaries as to what things we agree to do with other people, how many things we allow to be on our calendar. Time is such an important boundary because it is the one thing that to some extent we have a lot of control over and we give that power away and that causes us to feel burnout, overwhelmed and frustrated because we are now like, I am doing all these things, I'm going to all these parties, I'm

in all of these spaces that I don't want to be in. And if we look at the boundaries needed in that area, we can very clearly say, I can only do one activity per weekend. I need to stop working at 5 p.m. because I notice that I don't have that time with my family after if I'm still plugged into work. Within that time boundary, we can really change the way we think and feel about our free time, our work life, harmony, and our relationships with people. It is a huge space

where we can be intentional. Totally random question. Can I get away with this? Yes. I don't know if this is a boundary violation, but you mentioned that you grew up in Detroit. You now live in the South. Am I hearing a Southern accent? I hear that and I can't tell. I can't even tell if that transition has occurred. I moved to Charlotte in 2009. So it's possible I will say though that my family is originally from the south

and they move to Detroit in the 50s and every year we see a went to Alabama to see family and that sort of thing. So I certainly grew up with grandparents using words like yanda and gale and all sorts of things. So I'm not sure if it's that or if I have just acclimated so much and I don't even notice it. Well, I noticed the accent. I like it a lot about my opinion, but I was just curious. Yeah, I'm going to start throwing sweet tea in every sentence now. You said so much you've provided me with questions for days.

So I appreciate that in your description of setting boundaries and the different types of boundaries from intellectual to material, et cetera, et cetera. As I heard you, you were talking about setting boundaries with other people as you move through the world. This is kind of just a way of thinking about how to move through the world and interacting with other human beings. What about sending boundaries for yourself? For me, for example, one of my big internal struggles is around productivity and how hard

do I work and do I let my work seep into Saturday or Sunday, et cetera, et cetera. I'm curious about the internal aspect of this process. Boundaries is 90% internal. And I have learned that daily in working with clients because there are so many things that people talk about that they have the power to control, but it is much easier to think that it is some outside source. Right? It's like it's everybody else.

It's not me. I'm not the reason that I'm overbook. I'm overbooked because everyone keeps asking me. It's like, well, you're overbooked because you're not saying no to everyone asking you. You are working after hours or on vacation because you are deciding to work. Now, there are some careers where we have busy seasons.

I think about like accountings or attorneys. There are things where we have busy seasons and some of us are always in our busy season. We're always there. So it's really important to develop boundaries with yourself. And a wonderful way to do that is to be conscious of your values. If your value is to spend time with your family, now maybe that's not quantity time, Maybe it's not like all weekend.

I just want to be with my family. Maybe that is taking two hours to do work. But can we structure that? Does it have to be like a, oh, I just need to go do this thing or can it be from 10 to 12 on Saturdays? I will work. So everyone knows. So no one else is even violating the boundary. Do you have to do it every week or are there certain weeks where you need to do it? And others where you do not, you give to create those boundaries that flow into your life in a way that makes sense for you. And so it's really hard when we see things that say, this is how you should work. You should never work on vacation. You should never work after hours. In general, I think that could not be a good message

because now, especially in the pandemic and so many folks are working from home, with working from home, there are things that happen throughout the day that you may need to take a break for. And so if you could plug back in in the evening, perhaps that makes a little sense for you and your family. So thinking about your life and really structuring the boundaries around that, being conscious of your values, looking at the value, and then thinking about what boundaries can I have to support my value of spending more time with friends, having more hobby time. How do I adjust my boundaries for that? Because so

often we are operating without even thinking about the things that are actually important to us. Let me give you an example and you can tell me if you're up for it, whether you think this is properly executed. In my life for many years, more years than I care to admit, I worked seven days a week. So I'm always in busy season. Recently, I left one of my jobs, which was anchoring a broadcasts that aired on the weekends. So now I have my weekends. And this past weekend, I do I had a ton of work to do, but I also know from having hosted this podcast for so long and spoken to so many people who are experts in both time management and happiness that it's important not to work all the time. The brain can't keep it up that long and it's important to work on the relationships in your life

because that will make you happy. And of course, you'll bring that happiness and energy back into your work. So I said to my wife, look Saturday, I am fully available. I am not going to even look at my email. I'm the whole day. It's whatever you want. Sunday, I need to work until three and then I know we have a family activity from three through the evening. And she was like, great.

And it seems to have worked. Does that seem like internal and external boundary setting around time that was functional in your eyes as an expert? Absolutely. And you verbalize it. Your wife, it sounds like she really appreciated that. And what we know about time is time expands or contracts to fit what you can do within that span, right? So if you give yourself, I need to write seven pages and six hours, you probably will write seven pages and six hours because you know that you only have so much time.

So I think it's very effective to say, I can only work to this time because you're one day at nine. And for the brain, it creates like this, okay, we have to get it done. We have these things. We don't have time to like online shop right now. We really need to focus on work. So that's a very healthy thing.

And it sounds like it works for you and your family. Yeah, that's what I was saying about no work on weekends. I think that there is a portion of people who actually enjoy work. They find their work very valuable. It's not something that they are desiring this huge vacation away from. And a lot of what we see is people who are like, I hate my job. How do I get out of it? Right? There are some people are like, I actually like job, how do I get out of it? Right? There are some people who are like, I actually like this stuff or it's really important to me. Like, I really want to be good at this thing

and it might require me to do some evenings and weekends. And that is fine as long as you're making space for family, social, and all these other things. So really thinking about how you want to structure your schedule is a beautiful boundary. Let me go back to the bravery issue. When you listed all the levels of boundary setting from again emotional, material, intellectual, et cetera,

I can imagine a lot of people hearing this and saying, yeah, I need to do this. I've got a boss who's asking me to do too much. I've got friends and family who are asking me for money or asking me for time in ways that I'm not comfortable. I'm feeling overwhelmed, et cetera. This magical person I'm conjuring, which I think is probably most people. My feel, I don't have the wherewithal to do this.

I'm terrified of my boss or I don't want to anger my family. How do we get started in what may seem like an overwhelming project? Well, if you remember at the beginning of this program, this is what I talked about, that fear of the unknown of how people react and what they might say and telling the big bad wolf that you don't want to do this thing, it is scary.

What gives me comfort is the majority of the time, people actually respect your boundaries. There are some outliers, of course. There are people who, you're like, oh my gosh, I just said I can't do this thing for them and they explode it. That happens. But when I really think about my life and setting boundaries, there have been more people who have said, okay, no problem. What works better for you or any of those things than there have been people who have chosen to end a relationship or have an explosion. We really have to work

towards not being psychics and predicting the future of what could be because bosses have boundaries. They may not have boundaries with you, but there is probably somebody else on the team, someone else in their life that has boundaries with this person. And the boss is respecting them. It's the same thing for parents. I get that a lot with parents. I can't tell my mom that I'm not coming home for the holiday. Your mother respects boundaries. She's been on this earth a long time. She's worked. She has friends. She has other family members. Some of those folks have boundaries with her. And the things that are not happening in your life are sometimes as a result of not having that boundary, is not because of the person, because the person can respect boundaries.

They have relationships with other people. It's just that you haven't implemented any. Now I will say, when you are setting boundaries with someone for the first time, it might be interesting to them that you are choosing a boundary in this situation because you haven't done it before. It might be interesting to them that you can no longer help in a certain way. Allow them time to adjust because it is new for them. Just like it's new for you to say to them, I can't or can't do this thing or I need help with. It is new to them. It is new to you. So there's probably discomfort on both sides. You're not the only

person that's like, wow, I can't believe I said that. They're also saying, wow, I can't believe they said that. So know that both of you are probably in the same space and that being brave is, it is really challenging. And I think we can work ourselves up in some relationships. And it's just like this person won't even hear it. We have this idea that they can't even hear it. They won't respect it. They will retaliate and we just don't know.

We just don't know. And so allow people to be upset because it may or may not happen. And hopefully it doesn't. Hopefully they respect the boundary and the relationship is preserved and even stronger. Because right now the relationship is being damaged by not having the boundary and the relationship is preserved and even stronger. Because right now, the relationship is being damaged by not having the boundary. You're burnt out with work, you're burnt out with a certain friendship because you don't have the boundaries in place.

Much more of my conversation with Nedra Toob right after this. Nedra Toob right after this. Choose the perfect holiday gifts at CF's holiday market at CF Sherway Gardens. Shop from 15 local merchants offering a variety of gifts including personalized ornaments, flowers, apparel, and more. Enjoy live musical performances, take advantage of our gift wrap service, and stop by the letters to Santa's Station with your kids. Open until December 23rd, Thursday through Saturday from 11-7 in Sunday 11-6. Flame your visit today! Hi, it's me, the Grand Poova of Bahambad, the OG Green Grump, and Grinch.

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There is a certain amount of skill involved here in how you communicate the boundary. You could go about it in a way that boosts the odds of alienating the other person if your message is infused with rage and frustration and judgment. The easiest way to set a boundary is to think about what your problem is and what the solution is. And the boundary is telling the person the solution.

So if you are on too many projects at work and you're asked to be on another project. And the solution is I cannot be on another project. That is your boundary, right there. I cannot take on any more projects right now. We are constantly looking for the perfect words. That is the question I get the most about boundaries. How do I say to someone that I don't want to watch their dog? Those are the words right there. I don't want to watch your dog. We're looking for something that is not as offensive or something that people will feel

really good about. They won't be mad at us, but not watching someone's dog, when they really want you to watch their dog, it could go either way. We can't predict how they'll feel. We can be very kind and gentle and let them know that we're not able to meet that request. I love the way that Bob Ross speaks in this very like gentle way, you

know, perhaps it would be helpful to just take a breath, take your voice down some and say, right now, I'm not able to do that. You know, just to like conjure your inner like calm and say to someone that doesn't work for me. Not on a whisper, but definitely in a voice that doesn't even seem like, oh my gosh, I get a lot from people. You are so calm. And I'm like, really? On the inside, I'm on fire. I am on fire. But when I say it, it's like you were so calm. I'm like, yeah, because what I'm doing is, I can't believe that you would think this is okay, but this is not okay behavior. So it's, I could scream that.

I could scream that, but I'm thinking about the other person's reaction to it. I really want them to hear it and to be able to receive it and not from a space of anger. I can be angry and not speak in a way that shows this is how mad I am at you right now. It's like, I am very upset about this. And that takes practice for sure. It does take practice, but we can certainly just take a beat and say,

you know, the thing that we need or state that request. So often, when we are at the point where we're aggressive with setting the boundary, when we are yelling, demeaning, screaming, upset at people when we actually set the boundary. The boundary has been violated in so many ways. And now we're at the end of our rope with this person

or with this situation. And when we're setting the boundary, it comes out like rage because we are tired. And so it's really important to set the boundary before you get to the point of yelling the boundary, to really think about like in this moment, what do I want or need? Not, this person has been asking me things for two years. Two years is a very long time to be frustrated. Two years is a very long time to be irritated by someone requesting something.

One month, the boundary might come out a little better at one month. Two years, you might yell the boundary at the person. Yeah, I mean, and there's no small amount of self-interest at play here, because ultimately what you want is for people to hear and absorb your message. We know from the brain science that if people's amygdala, the fear center of their brain,

if that part of the brain is activated, the more rational part of the brain, prefrontal cortex, goes offline. So, in other words, if you're bringing the energy of heat, enjudgment, and accusation to the boundary setting, you're less likely to have the other person's brain respond in the way you wanted to. So channeling your inner Bob Ross makes him sense here. So I know that on Bob Ross,

the famous television painting instructor, I recently watched the documentary on him, and I did not know that his hair is not naturally like that. He permed his hair. Yes, yes. I too watched that documentary. And they spoke about his tone being very intentional. And how he was speaking in that way,

because he knew that that was a voice that predominantly women watching his show could understand because he'd watched other people with similar classes or something like creating things that he thought they were, oh, wow, it's a little aggressive or they're yelling. I wonder if my would be more successful if I just spoke in this whisper and I say, you just, you just dab it like so. And it was very successful. People were like, oh my gosh, the know, you just, you just dab it like so. And it was very successful. People are like, oh my gosh, the paintings, the voice, it works.

So just thinking about how we present the boundary is very important, but that also comes with the timing of when we're doing it. When we are at that point of like, I am so angry. It doesn't to come out a bit aggressive. So my goal is always to help people set the boundary before it gets to the point of exhaustion. One other strategy just to add here, you're the expert, I'm not the expert,

but it just occurred to me that when trying to set boundaries, which as we've established is tricky. One thing that might help us, aside from channeling the inner bar broths, is something that I've learned from the communications coaches with whom I've worked for the past couple of years. I invoke these names a lot in my podcast interviews because these coaches have had a lot of a powerful impact

on me, their names are Mudita Nisker and Dan Clermann. And something they recommend is that when you're trying to send a message to somebody, to lead with what they call your positive intention. In other words, to frame it not in the negative, so as to not activate the amygdala of your interlocutor. So for example, with the dog thing, you gave an example of like,

I don't wanna watch your dog. It might make sense to say, I care example of like, I don't want to watch your dog. It might make sense to say, I care about this relationship. I love you, but I can't do it this weekend. And I'm really sorry about that. My positive intention is implicit or explicit to keep a relationship with you, but I can't watch your schnauzer this weekend because whatever, I'm going to be a way or I just don't want to. Anyway, does any of that land for you, the idea of stating your positive intention for the relationship and then pursuing the boundary setting? Absolutely, I think that is an effective strategy to let people know, I love you, I care about

this relationship and this thing won't work for me. Some people certainly need that, particularly family, our romantic relationships. Those are places where we want to lead with love and let people know that I love you. And I cannot do this thing or and this is not working for me. Absolutely, that may be a little more interesting and work settings or that sort of thing.

You don't want to tell a colleague, I love you. And I can't help you with this project, but perhaps there is something else we could say. I enjoy working with you, but right now my calendar is full. There are so many other things I have going on. Sometimes though, I have noticed that when people really want something from you, they have this Steve Irko level of persistence. And we can give them a story. We can let them know how much we care about a relationship or care about the situation and none of that might matter. relationship or care about the situation and none of that might matter. And so knowing your people in setting boundaries is really helpful because there are some people

who would really appreciate you saying, I love you and I cannot do that. And there are other people who will still say, if you love me, why can't you? And so knowing your person is so important, I was talking to someone recently who was unable to commit to a work opportunity. And they told the person like all of these things they had go, I mean, it's not really reasonable. It was like, I have these 10 things. So I cannot do this right now. I would love to work with you in the future or something like that. And the person they said that too was very upset.

It was like, well, why can't you do it for me? It's like put me on as the 11th thing. It wouldn't take that boundary. And the person setting the boundary was really like, did I say something wrong? And I said, no, some people just can't receive the boundary. It's not about how you say it because you did it in a very compassionate way by letting them know, you know, why you weren't saying no, but they weren't

able to receive that. Now, I don't know if there's a better way to say something that a person is just unwilling to receive. way to say something that a person is just unwilling to receive. So if there are relationships or situations where what person has a problem receiving boundaries, I think keeping it short and simple is best. Because what you don't want them to do is try to now start a conversation around why you don't really need

the boundary or how they can make whatever they want work for your life. You really just need them to honor the boundary. So with those people, with those, I think the comedian, Charlie Murphy once described with James as a habitual line stepper, with those habitual line steppers, with the Steve Eurkels. I imagine you have to be prepared to set the boundary over and over again. I mean, yeah, if you think about like, that's what Laura was doing every episode. It's like, I'm not going to the dance with you. I think at some point Laura, she didn't date Steve, but she dated his alter ego, Stefan.

So there is this idea sometimes with boundaries that if we continue to ask people, at some point they will say yes. And so when setting the boundary, the language we use is really important. If you don't ever want to watch your friends' dog, how do you let that person know that this is something that you're just not open to as a thing

in your friendship with them? How do you say it? So it's, I love you, but I am not a dog person. And it doesn't fit into my life. I don't want to ruin our relationship because I'm not giving your dog the attention it needs. Perhaps there is some service, you know, some other person who really loves dogs,

but it is not me. I love you, but I do not like dogs. So how do you say to someone that there is some finality to this boundary? Because you don't want people to continue to repeat something when it's like, no, this is a like never for me. It's not like right now, I don't want to do this. This is a never.

So being, you know, certainly consider it in your language and saying to someone that this is not something that could be an option in the future, just really saying to someone like, we are at the end of the road, this is it. This is my answer and it's not something that we can have any wiggle room on. And as you've said, there are a lot of people who won't take that. Even if you present

the boundary with as having no wiggle room, you might have to be prepared to just set the boundary over and over again. Your mom's just going to keep pushing you to come home for Christmas. Your friend's going to keep shoving that dog on you, your boss is gonna keep asking you to add one more thing to your project list. And you just, if I'm channeling you correctly, you just have to be willing to restate the boundary over and over. Is there no other strategy? The strategy is saying stop. Many times we don't say stop.

We just let people continue to ask us. One example that I use in my book is someone didn't particularly enjoy their co-workers' personality, but the person will always ask them to lunch. And so they never say it like, I like to eat lunch here, or I prefer to have lunch by myself.

It was like, oh, not today, no, not this time. No, I can't go like all of these things, but there was no like, hey, this is my preference here. If you have a parent who is saying, do you wanna come home for Christmas? Do you wanna come home for Christmas? No, just like last year, we're not coming home. You know, those sort of things.

You can say to someone, please stop asking me because I feel like this is like a no in the future as well. I feel like this is a universal no. I feel like this will be a no in 2023 and a no in 2030 as well. Don't say all that. But you can just say, please stop asking. We try to find this really complicated language to

say stop. And really the word is just stop. Please stop asking. It's what we do with kids. You know, you do get to a point where you say stop asking. That's something that certainly with my five year old. It's like, did you hear me say no? It's stop, stop because this is a no now. It will be a no in the car. It will be a no when it's like, stop. We have to get to a stopping point. Yeah, I have no problem bringing the hammer down my six year old, but I just keep going back to the example

you conjured of somebody in the office asking you about the lunch over and over. It seems so uncomfortable to say to that person, I just, this is a no for today. And I would like you to apply this no through 2030 and beyond like that. And then you have to keep working with that person. That just seems so uncomfortable.

Is it uncomfortable to sit through a lunch with someone that you don't enjoy? I think that's uncomfortable too. Yes, it is. So it's like choose your discomfort. Do you want to have pretend lunches with this person for the duration of you being at this company or do you want to say,

hey, I'm not really interested in going to lunch. I do think that it is uncomfortable, but I also believe that we don't have to like everyone and everyone will not like us. And so there are people in life whose company we will not enjoy. There are people in life who will not enjoy our company. And so when that is the case, we don't have to say to people, I don't like your personality,

but we can say, you know, a hour for lunch, you only get, you know, most jobs you get a hour for lunch. Some people go workout, some people listen to a podcast, but it's really not a lot of time. So again, time boundaries. Is this how you want to spend your one hour? And how do you let this person know in a very kind and gentle way? It's not, I don't ever want to go to lunch with you, but it could be, I prefer to have my lunches alone because this is the time where I restore myself. But thank you so much for that invite. Just letting them know in a very gentle way that this is something that does not work for you because we do we want to tell people you should go to lunch with people even if you

don't want to. You should do this even if you don't want to. You should go and visit your parents. Even if you don't want to. That is where and visit your parents, even if you don't want to. That is where the therapist in me says, no, because then I get people in my office talking about depression because they're going home for Christmas and they don't want to be there. Or anxiety about interacting with a certain coworker because they don't really like the person.

So it creates so many bigger issues because we're really trying to avoid setting a really hard boundary. That is a really hard uncomfortable boundary, but the consequences of that are really big. Much more of my conversation with Nedra Tawab right after this. much more of my conversation with Nedra Tawab right after this. What a life these celebrities lead. Imagine walking the red carpet, the cameras in your face, the designer clothes, the worst dress list, big house, the world constantly peering in, the bursting bank account, the people trying to get the grubby mitts on it. What's he all about? I'm just saying, being really, really famous,

it's not always easy. I'm Emily Loitani, and I'm Anna Leongrofi, and we're the hosts of Terribly Famous from Wondery, the podcast which tells the stories of our favorite celebrities from their perspective. Each season we show you what it's really like being famous by taking you inside the life of a British icon. We walk you through their glittering highs

and eyebrow raising lows and ask, is fame and fortune really worth it? Follows terribly famous now wherever you get your podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wondry Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Hey everybody, it's Dan on 10% happier. I like to teach listeners how to do life better. I want to try. Oh hello, Mr. Grinch. What would make you happier?

Ah, let's see. And out of business sign at the North Pole or a nationwide ban on caroling and noise, noise, noise. What would really make me happy is if I didn't have to host a podcast. That's right, I got a podcast too. Hi, it's me, the Grand Puba of Bahambad, the OG Green Grump, the Grinch. From Wondery, Tis the Grinch Holiday Talk Show is a pathetic attempt by the people of Ruvil to use my situation as a teachable moment. So join me! The Grinch! Listen as I launch a campaign against Christmas cheer, grilling celebrity guests, like chestnuts on an open fire! Your family will love the show! As you know, I'm famously great with kids. Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Talk Show on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about it from the flip side. What's your advice on

respecting other people's boundaries and maybe even intuiting their boundaries? Because sometimes people won't have the wherewithal to tell us. Respecting boundaries, that also takes some practice because we do live in a society where we think we can be persistent, or we think someone will change their mind. We think that because of our relationship with them, that they should even have a boundary.

You know, they shouldn't have this boundary of not coming home for Christmas because this is my child. How dare they say that? But everyone is entitled to their preferences, to be a little different from someone else. How do we just say, that's different? And I honor that. You don't have to be just like me. different from someone else. How do we just say, that's different?

And I honor that. You don't have to be just like me. It is a life practice to hear someone say a boundary and say, OK, thank you for telling me that. We don't have to like other people's boundaries. We don't have to agree with the boundary. We don't have to have a deep understanding of it. But what we can do is honor it. We can just allow a person to have a deep understanding of it, but what we can do is honor it. We can just allow a

person to have a battery because that will, I believe, make the relationship deeper. When we do things with people that we actually enjoy, when we have conversations, where we actually feel comfortable, we help them in ways that are truly authentic. I remember maybe this was in the 90s. There was this movement of parenting, not telling your kids no, to think of these alternate things. Like, would you rather do this or, you know,

just not using the word no? And I thought that was really interesting to not use the word no, because we need a lot of practice with here again. We really do. We need, and if we can start practicing at two, three years old, perhaps we'll be better at it by the time we're 30, 40, 50, 60 of allowing people to say no because people will say no. And we have to deal with the discomfort around that. We cannot make everyone say yes or be willing to do everything for us. We have to allow people to have options.

What about the skill of kind of making the empathic leap into the minds of the people around you in a way that allows you to make educated guesses about what their boundaries are? Because a lot of people don't, you know, I haven't worked with you or haven't listened to this podcast and haven't worked up the skill set and the gumption required to set boundaries. Do you find yourself doing that, you know, just making educated guesses about what the boundaries might be of the people in your world? Yeah, I think based on someone's behavior, sometimes the tone in which they say yes or no, it's a good indicator of how they feel about it. I notice a hesitant yes, and I tend to release people when I hear the hesitancy, when I hear

the, yeah, I'll do it. It's like, whoa, I don't want you to feel like you need to do this with me or for me because I'm asking. There is something else that we can do. There's another need that I may have that you may say, yes, too. So really being conscious of how people are saying things to us, their body language when they're saying things. When we notice that their energy is up, we know which friends or family members enjoy certain things and which things they don't really enjoy.

So we don't have to include people in everything. We don't have to ask for help in everything because hopefully we have a community of people. And so there are some people who will want to do this thing and there are some people who won't and that's okay. We have to build our community when we notice that, oh gosh, there is no one who wants to do blind with me. I have to accept the know of everyone else, but I need to also find someone who wants to try this thing with me. It doesn't mean that you have to figure out who in your circle you now need to make a part of this experience because even if they say yes, will they enjoy it?

Will they like it in the way that you do? Probably not because it's not their thing. So really noticing the way people say yes or no, what they're saying, asking them questions. I notice that you see it no in this situation, is that a no like universally, like forever or is that a no this time? Sometimes we're afraid of the answer, but just having an idea can actually give you the ability to choose differently in the future. Is it important to bear in mind the intersection of boundaries and diversity? In other words, it might be easier for me to set a boundary in a workplace, given that the modern workplace was created by white men for the benefit of white men.

It might be easier for me to set a boundary then for a woman or a woman of color or somebody who's differently abled. So I wonder if you have thoughts about how these two issues can intersect? Well, as a black woman, I definitely think that there is this stigma when black women set boundaries and it's angry black woman. Oh my gosh, she's so angry. She said no, it's like, did she yell? Did she push something over? What happened when she said no?

She just said no. Okay, what people can say now. So it is the stigma around black women saying it. I think for women to be assertive, there are all the bossy, she's feisty, she's sassy, all of these sort of things. And what I see that as is, wow, they said about, she's a diva, I meant you hear that a lot

with a female entertainers that she is a diva. I try to look into that, like, what are they calling her a diva for? Oh, she wanna ice cold water. I don't hear the diva behavior here. Like, we all have a preference for water temperature. Like, is that, did she throw a bottle at someone because it was room temperature?

Like, what is actually happening? And we'll run with this stuff. And we really have to think about, how are we feeding into the stereotype? Is that our way of disempowering a population of people from saying no? Are we really trying to silence them by creating labels, by creating terms that don't support them being assertive?

Sometimes we are and we have to strike those sort of words from our vocabulary in a childcare situation when someone called my daughter, Sassy. I said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't use that word. We cannot refer to her as Sassy, because I think she was stating a preference. Now, did she roll her eyes and do it?

I don't know, that's not what happened. She stated a preference. And so now if we give her this sassy label, which is a negative connotation to have an aboundary, this is am I being anything or am I just requesting something? Am I stating a boundary? So being really conscious of these labels and how we use them is really important for empowering marginalized groups to have boundaries that we have to be conscious of how we are playing into them not having boundaries. What I heard you say very well in a very convincing fashion was how the larger society should

view requests for boundaries from marginalized communities, but given that the larger society is so infused with prejudices and biases, what would your advice be to people who are in marginalized groups, who nonetheless need to state their preferences and get their needs met? So one thing that is really challenging,

particularly in corporate environments, is educating people as to why you're not being aggressive. Like actually I'm not being aggressive, like this is how I talk. And I think within some cultures, it is cultural to speak a certain way, right? Within some cultures, it is normal to speak at an elevated term. It is normal to maybe not look people in the eyes, depending on the culture.

And because we live in a space with so many others, we have to not personalize every single interaction, especially in work environments. Everyone is not like me and my friends. You know, I'm coming to work. People are going to be different. They're going to eat things that maybe I've never heard of. They're gonna wear their hair in different ways. They're gonna have different activities on the weekend.

This is actually a learning experience. This is an opportunity for me to learn about other people. This is not an opportunity for me to push my culture on them and to say this is how I act and this is how you need to act. It's really to understand and get to know. If you're in a working space with someone, get to know the person. So you'll at least know like, okay, this is a time where she's actually being aggressive. But if you're applying something that isn't even pertaining to this person based on your interactions with them, you won't know. You're just going in with this bias of, oh, they set it in this way or they did this thing, there is something that they are doing to me.

When perhaps this is how they speak, there are people that's like, oh yeah, she's always loud. So when they're loud with you, they're not doing anything special, they're not being aggressive. It's like they speak in a loud voice. You know, so really getting to know people

before attaching any sort of label to their behavior is really important. Last thing I want to ask you about is in your book you talk about the intersection of boundary setting and trauma, in particular childhood trauma. What are your thoughts on that? With childhood trauma such as neglect, sexual abuse, physical abuse, physical neglect, the boundaries are often non-existent or blurred. And within the population of folks who have experienced any sort of childhood trauma, there is a lot of work to be done around understanding their own boundaries,

sometimes setting those boundaries with people. There's a lot of enmeshment, codependency, this responsibility for people who in some situations have abused you, or neglected you, a lot of guilt within that population because there are things that happen that are out of your control but you still feel like you could have done something or you're still looking for acceptance from a situation where someone was abusive to you. The boundaries within that population is just so unique and I think that the work there is certainly as deeper, is not just about boundaries. There is a lot of work to be done around your mindset,

talking about what is appropriate, what isn't appropriate, because people may not know. I am often in the work of helping people who have emotional neglect from childhood. And one of the things of children who were raised to be many adults, they don't know what's age appropriate. They don't know what you should be doing at 12 years old

because at 12 years old, they didn't have any boundaries. And so when they see a child, you know, maybe at six playing with the Barbie dials, like, why are they playing with a dial? I wasn't doing that. And it's like, yeah, because you were doing these other things that were actually inappropriate. And so teaching someone what's age appropriate is a whole process. Sometimes I have my clients go to a store

and just look at the toys and look at the age on the toys. Those ages are there because that's what's appropriate. So at eight, this is where you were supposed to be. And that's shocking to people. It was like, oh my gosh, at eight, I was watching like all of these things that happened because there were no boundaries. So now figuring out how to play

because you didn't have a situation where you play. So the work of trauma is certainly a deeper level with learning about boundaries because there have been so many boundary violations that now we need to uncover what has happened, what was inappropriate, and the boundaries that you can set going forward. Bottom line seems to me, and I'm taking this from you, is that diving into boundaries, setting them with other people, figuring out your own needs so that you can appropriately

set them, figuring out how you're going to communicate your needs in a way that will maximize your odds of success, making sure you back that up with actions that are similarly optimized your odds for success. The bottom line to all of this, if I'm hearing you correctly, is your relationships will get better the more you set boundaries. Absolutely. And even when people lose relationships, they're really concerned about like,

maybe if I hadn't have set that boundary, I always wonder, was that a healthy relationship? If setting a boundary ruined your relationship with someone, you signed to them, this is my boundary. That was like the big thing that brought the relationship down. What was the relationship based on?

Was it a healthy situation for you and maybe even the other person? Because they had different expectations too. So in general, the relationships that are worth having, the relationships that are fulfilling, the relationships with people who should be in your orbit, they are deeper, were connected and authentic when we have healthy boundaries in place. Can I get you in closing to plug everything?

Can you plug your books? Can you plug your Instagram feed? Any resources you're putting out into the world that you want people to know about? Can I push you to share that stuff? Yes, so I have a book. It is set boundaries, find peace. I have a workbook, the set boundaries workbook. I am most present and active on Instagram at Nedra to Wob.

And my website is NedraTawab.com. Great to meet you, NedraTawab. Thanks for coming on. You're welcome. Thanks again to NedraTawab. Always great to talk to her. If you want to hear more from Nedra, just go to the show notes page for a link

to another episode we did with her on how to handle family drama. Thank you very much for listening, really appreciate it. We wouldn't and couldn't do this without you. Thanks most of all to everybody who works so hard on the show. 10% Happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davy Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer. Marissa Schneidermann is our senior editor Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production and Kimmy Regler is our executive producer Alicia

Mackie leads our marketing and Tony Magyar is our director of podcasts and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme if you like 10% happier, I hope you do. You can listen early and add free right now by joining 1-3 Plus in the 1-3 Apple or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen to add free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at 1-3 dot com slash survey.

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