Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Is The News Making You Hate Everybody Heres A Radical Antidote

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

We're sharing an episode of The Paula Faris Show on which Dan was a guest. Here's Paula's introduction: From theological debates to newsroom banter, Dan Harris and I couldn't be more different — I grew up in a Midwest Conservative Christian home, while Dan grew up as an East Coast Liberal who had a Bar Mitzvah for the money (his words!). But our unlikely friendship as co-anchors on Good Morning America became a lesson in empathy, curiosity, and the beauty of bridging divides. In this candid and hilarious reunion, Dan and I talk about media bias, religious differences, and how pushing each other made us better journalists — and better people. It's a behind-the-scenes look at what happens when you stop avoiding the hard conversations and start leaning in and the science behind the importance of having people in our lives who are different from us.  From Bar Mitzvahs to Bible studies, this episode will make you laugh, reflect, and maybe even text a friend who sees the world a little differently than you do. Sign up to receive Paula's email where she keeps it real about what it's like being a parent in America. And if you're a working mom, make sure you're getting The CARRY ALL email, the load-lessening newsletter for and by working moms. Tickets are now on sale for a special live taping of the 10% Happier Podcast with guest Pete Holmes! Join us on November 18th in NYC for this benefit show, with all proceeds supporting the New York Insight Meditation Center. Grab your tickets here! Tickets are now available for an intimate live event with Dan on November 23rd as part of the Troutbeck Luminary Series. Join the conversation, participate in a guided meditation, and ask your questions during the Q&A. Click here to buy your ticket! Join Dan's online community here Follow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTok Subscribe to our YouTube Channel To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris  

It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, everybody. Is the news making you hate people, maybe even your friends, your family, your neighbors? If that's true, I have a radical antidote for you. Here it is. Hang out with somebody with whom you disagree. I know, I know, I know, I can hear you grumbling already. You might be thinking, I don't know anybody who I disagree with because I'm only friends with people who share my tribal. affinities or you might be thinking, I can't do this because everybody I know who disagrees with me is too fucking annoying. I get it. The point of this episode really is not to guilt or shame you into building these kinds of bridges. It's to model for you how it can be done and to show you the many benefits that proximity can breed understanding and take you out of a state of blind rage, which is an

uncomfortable place to live and many of us are living there. What you're about to hear is a conversation between me and my former co-anchor on the weekend editions of Good Morning America, Paula Ferris. When we worked together, which we did for many years, we used to have heated debates behind the scenes about everything from politics to religion, all the stuff you're not supposed to talk about in mixed company. But these debates actually brought us closer together. Done right, hanging out with people who do not share your worldview, can not only breed compassion, but it can also be thrilling and fun. On paper, Paula and I could not be. be more different. She's an evangelical Christian from the Midwest. I'm an agnostic from the People's Republic of Massachusetts, but having candid conversations made us both better and stronger. So I'm excited to play this conversation for you. Just three quick things to say before we dive in. First, this conversation first aired on Paula's podcast, the Paula Ferris Show, which you should all go check out. Second, our next live meditation and Q&A session is coming up on Wednesday, November 12th at Four Eastern.

It's going to feature our teacher of the month, Christiana Wolf. We usually do these on Tuesdays at four, but this Tuesday is a holiday in the U.S., so we're switching it up. Also, we're now doing these on Zoom instead of substack, so that's cool. Finally, if you want to meditate with me in person, I've got two events coming up. I'll be doing a live taping of this podcast in New York City on November 18th. It's going to be a conversation with the comedian Pete Holmes, who's not only very funny, but he's got a long and deep spiritual practice. this event will be a benefit for the New York Insight Meditation Center.

And then coming up on November 23rd, I'll do an intimate little meditation and Q&A sesh at a lovely little hotel in the Hudson Valley called Trout Beck. There are links to both events in the show notes. Okay, we'll get started with my old friend Paula Ferris right after this. Dan's good to see you, my dear friend. Likewise. Although you just insulted my dog, Addie, who decided to join me for this. She's very small, and you just gave her a complex.

All I say was that I have cats that are bigger than that dog. Maybe you. What I didn't say, but I will say now is I think those cats could kick the shit out of that dog probably. Oh, look at her. She, she's definitely an alpha. My sister had Dobry's, Dobermans, scared of her. Oh, really? I respect that.

Maybe your cats are bigger than my dog, who is seven pounds, a little cabbin. because you feed them too much. Is that a possibility, Dan? You know, we have one, that is definitely a possibility. We have one cat, Toby, who is so overweight. And it happened when we moved to the suburbs. And I think he was like a goldfish that's grown to the size of its body. How many cats do you have now?

You've always been a cat. Well, we have, we had until recently three. And then my wife came home from the vet with a fourth. Okay, wow. So now we have four. Wow. Yeah. You're like almost to a basketball team. And you know that would be five because you're all into sports now because you're your son. Yes. That's been a huge change in my life. Which is crazy. I can't wait to talk to you about that. I sent you a gift because I know you're a cat guy. So I sent you a gift yesterday and said studies show that dog ownership reduces the risk of dementia by 40% while cats make no difference. So I'm just going to leave that right there. Okay. Is that true? I don't know.

I saw it on the Internet. Of course, it's true. Well, then it's definitely true. Isn't that where you get most of your political information? Yeah, I just, I, there's no corroboration. There's no sourcing anything. If I see it, I believe it. You know?

Trust. Trust don't verify. That's my motto. No, I saw it on Instagram. I've actually seen it pop up a couple of times, but that was just so funny. I didn't care whether or not it was true. I sent it to you just to Raj. You a little bit about your large cats, your tro.

You know, What, I do believe it, even if it's not verified yet, it makes sense. You know, I can't give you too much grief about cats because I did have a cat growing up named Peaches. And she was one of the loves of my life. She also was huge. I'm sure she could give Toby and all of your cats a run for their money. She was massive. Like, couldn't run.

Toby's problem is he won't run even for money. So that's, that's. Should we get to the point? Should we keep all of this end? You think people want to hear it? I think they do, right? We're dear friends. We talk about random stuff. We give each other grief. That's what friends are supposed to do, right? A little bit. We'll, uh, we let's run the experiment. Let's run the experiment. Okay. So, Dan, we are talking about the importance of having friends in our lives that are different than we are, right? That could be race, religion, ideology, and politics. It could be socioeconomics. It could be geography. But the importance. But the importance of the importance of the importance of of having friends in our lives that are different than we are. And when I think of someone that is, not polar opposite, but when I think of somebody who's very different than me, I think of you. And I adore you. But we're still, we make it work. And I think my life is richer because of having a

friend like you in my life. I don't know if you feel the same. I mean, you might actually squash this whole experiment here by your response. But I'm just, putting it out there. My life is richer. I've learned a lot. Broaden my perspectives because of having you and other friends in my life that don't necessarily line up with me. You know, I totally agree with you about, you know, the affection you expressed vis-a-vis me is as fully mutual. And I also agree with you that on a macro level, it's really good. And we'll talk about some of the science to have friendships that go beyond your little bubble. Yeah, I completely agree.

I think it just pushes us in ways. I never really understood the importance of it, though, until I started to see some of the science and some of the research behind it. But I want to read this quote, Dan. And I actually sent you an outline because I'm a nerd like that. You used to make fun of me all the time because I had a nerd pad when I would anchor GMA.

I always had a nerd. You called it my nerd pad. Do you remember this? It was a little note pad. I had to write everything down. So I sent you an outline of what this conversation is going to look like, and I sent you this quote. And I think it's really, really powerful. And the quote is, it is human nature to find a sense of safety and validation in like-minded people. But it can also be a recipe for stagnating personal growth. Only knowing people like ourselves can make us more insular. It's an anti-growth arrangement potentially causing feelings of disconnection from broader social conversations. That was from a relationships expert. the more I learn about the importance of having friends who are different than we are, the more I'm motivated to talk about it and to invest in those friendships. But I think before we even jump in about the importance in the science, do you want to just share how we know one another?

Like we go back what, 15 years-ish. Is that right? Something like that. When did you arrive at ABC News? 2011. I'd certainly, yes, 2011 moved my small little family. to New York City, started doing the overnight news, which I didn't even know, by the way, that ABC had an overnight newscast when I first interviewed for the job. But sort of doing the overnights and got moved to general correspondent. And we started hanging out a little bit more then. But I think we really got close when I was promoted to Weekend anchor at Good Morning America. That's when we really got close, don't you think? That was what-ish for 2014? 2015? Was it? No, it was before that, wasn't it? 2000. No, because it was the year Landon, my youngest, was born in 2014. It was that year I remember because I came back from maternity leave and then I was promoted. But I feel like we were friends before that. Like we got close before that too. But then we really, really became fans of one another when we started anchoring the show together. And where it becomes most relevant in some ways to this discussion is that every Saturday and Sunday morning when we were anchoring the show together, we would jointly. interview a political analyst about the events of the day. And this really obviously got quite kind of intense around 2016 with that presidential election. And we would have to work out the

questions together. And that would provoke a lot of discussions. And I would say even before that, we were having a lot of discussions about religion. Because just to step back, I often joke that I was raised in the People's Republic of Massachusetts. Both of my parents were hard left atheist scientists who had been serious hippies in the in the 60s at Stanford Medical School. We were sort of in the heart of, you know, the Summer of Love and all that stuff. If you, if you ask my mother where she was, you know, a lot of people of the boomer generation, you know, they remember where they were when a man landed on the moon. If you ask my mother where she was, she will tell you that she was at a Black Panther rally.

Oh my God. Which is true. And they were doing sit-ins against the Vietnam War. And so if you, those two streams were huge for me. One, you know, being raised in a very liberal environment and two, a not religious environment. And that is the polar opposite of how you were. Right. But yet you still had a bar mitzvah.

Right? Yes. And as I often joke, I did that just for the money. My upbringing was totally different. I grew up in a very conservative Christian home in Michigan. My parents, yet they were both, my dad especially was wild, but they became deep Christians in like the early 70s during like the Catholic church had this big charismatic renewal. Okay. And so that's when they became like really devoted Christian. So that was the house that I grew up and is very strict. Okay. Very conservative, very Christian. I couldn't wear two piece bathing. So. suits, you know, I couldn't go trick-or-treating on Halloween. I mean, the pendulum swung pretty far one side before it kind of regulated itself. And why is Addy licking my microphone? Addison, okay, you're just weird. Dog, you are weird. But I grew up in a totally different environment. And I remember, Dan, you know, we're talking about our differences. When we were talking about

our relationships, I got married at 24. Had you ever met anyone that got married that young? remember you would say to me, gosh, I didn't know who I was at 24. I can't imagine getting married that young. And so I did, I did feel like I was a bit of a freak in New York City marrying my college sweetheart. But that was kind of the normie and the type of culture that I grew up in, you know, went to a small Christian school, married my college sweetheart at age 24. You know, I don't think you'd really ever met anybody like me. And I hadn't really met anybody like you. Well, I'll just say, So I had actually spent a lot of time covering evangelical Christians as a reporter. Right.

So I actually did know, but they weren't friends. I knew and know your husband and kids. And so like we were in and you and likewise with me. And so we were in each other's lives in a way that didn't apply to my travels in the Bible belt as a skeptical report. Right. I was like the subject of the person that you reported on. And yes. I mean, the goal of journalism is to maintain your neutrality. And I think we, I think it was a healthy balance because we have to acknowledge we have a bias. Everybody has an inherent bias based on how we grew up, right? Our surroundings, our childhood, that informs who we are. And so I think as reporters and journalists, we were very aware and cognizant to make sure that we were covering a story fairly based on our inherent bias. I mean, I don't think. you can, there's no such thing as bias-free news because we all have a bias and it's up to us

to check that bias and make sure that we're covering it from a different angle. And so you were, I don't want to say an accountability partner, but I think we are kind of accountability partners and we did a good job of pushing and pulling one another. Well, this is what it was like for me growing up. This is how, you know, my family or friends or this, this subsect. This is how they feel about the issue. You would come at it from the same way. And I think we were a great team because of that. I thought, I think our differences made us really powerful when it came to how we work together. I completely agree. We should talk more about how that went, but as you were talking, I was realizing that in part working with you and then also in part,

you know, personal development of many, many forms and just growing older and learning. I, I have realized that I personally and the media or the mainstream media generally were not and are not as unbiased as we like to think. You know, in that era when I met you, I'd been in the news business for 20 years and had been all over the world and covered war zones and political campaigns and and terrorists and cult leaders and, you know, everything. Right. And I felt with some degree of. validity that, you know, I was reasonably highly trained and that I had proven to be even handed in lots of different demanding environments. And so that had a certain amount of truth to it. And I think the truth of the matter is that getting to know you really exposed how badly the

at least ABC News, and I think this is true of the media writ large, the mainstream media, lacked ideological diversity. Right. That's not to say I never got directives to cover things from a liberal standpoint. In fact, the only times I ever got ideological directives were post-9-11 and they were coming from a more conservative standpoint. And, you know, I would argue that we badly dropped the ball on covering George W. Bush and his claims about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't want to paint with too broad a brush here. But the truth of the matter is pretty much everybody I know. knew at ABC, with a few exceptions, you most notable among them, it was just taken for granted that we came from a liberal background. And, you know, there were safeguards in place and there remained safeguards in place to be fair and even-handed. We have lawyers and standards and practices, people. But I just think it's just in the water to approach the world from a specific vantage point. Right. Anyway, I said a lot there. Do you agree?

I completely agree. I always felt like, you know, because I grew up in Michigan, went to a small Christian liberal arts school in Ohio, married my college sweetheart, worked my way up in TV and Dayton and Cincinnati, lived in Chicago and then New York. And so I felt like I was exposed to a lot. You know, yes, I grew up in a conservative Christian home. But yes, and yes, that informed who I was and who I am. But I feel like I'm kind of a free thinker because of what I've been exposed to, who I've been exposed to. And I, love the push and pull. Like this is kind of where I thrive. The conflict feels like intimacy to me. It doesn't feel like it doesn't threaten me at all. I will say one of my big struggles. And when we're talking about having friends that are different, we're not just talking about ideological and political differences. We're talking about race. We're talking about religion. We're talking about socioeconomics. We're talking about geography. One of my concerns when we were at ABC. And again, I acknowledge my bias. I think we all have to acknowledge our bias because we can't eradicate our bias. It informs who we are, but there have to be checks in place to make sure that we're covering a story from a fair

perspective. And one of my issues and concerns was that there wasn't much ideological diversity. And I think newsrooms particularly are at their best, Dan, when there is that push and pull. When you have ideological diversity, you can bounce things off of one another and essentially save you from yourself. I think that's why the country and the media has been so shocked the last couple of elections because there isn't enough ideological diversity in newsrooms. You need people that don't look like you, that don't think like you, that aren't from where you are, that have a different background. You need that in order to maintain those checks and balances and to save you from yourself.

I think the fact that essentially the media got caught with their pants down, again, is just an indication of how, I don't want to say out of touch, but it's the lack of ideological diversity in newsrooms. That's, I think that's at the crux of the issue. And you and I, yes, I'm an independent. I'm a free thinker. I'm a free thinker. There is no party or person that I'm going to give my vote to. I didn't vote when I was an active journalist because I just felt like that was my own conviction. But you. and I are different in so many areas, too. Like, I grew up in a, I would say, lower middle class, lower income home. You know, I grew up in the Midwest. So there's the geographical differences. There's the socioeconomic differences. Yes, the religion, you know, we joked about doing a podcast called the Jew and the Gentile because I think we also embrace our differences, you know. There's the ideological differences. So there are a lot of different differences when it comes to this whole topic of the importance of having friends who are.

are different than you. But I can't underscore enough when it comes to media and our backgrounds, the importance. And this applies to CNN. It applies to Fox. It applies to everybody. You need ideological differences in your newsroom to make sure that you are covering the story with fairness and with balance. So that's what it's lacking. I would agree. And just to make two points to build on that, one, just as it pertains to ABC News specifically, where just the only news organization, and that I know very intimately. There actually is quite a bit of diversity when it comes to race, gender, and sexual orientation. A thousand percent.

It's, yes. I agree. Probably almost certainly not enough at the leadership level at certain times. That has kind of improved over time. But certainly when I was there, that was an issue. And then the other thing to point out is I know DEI has become kind of a controversial concept these days. And I believe there are data to show that diverse workplaces, not just newsrooms, diverse workplaces work better. Teams where you have different points of view

and different backgrounds work better. I agree. I think it's the push and pull. That's why I think the most powerful, and I worked at the view. I think the view is always been at its best when there are differing opinions. It makes it more interesting. And as a viewer, I trust, you know, I trust any news organization that I am watching much more so if I know that they're newsroom. is ideologically different, geographically different. And you brought up a good point. Yes, we checked a lot of the boxes. The geographical differences, I think was another concern, too. Like, the fact that I grew up in a conservative Christian home and married my college sweetheart and I was kind of a freak in the newsroom. Like, that shouldn't be, I shouldn't be an anomaly because that's like half of the country, right? And so. Well, you were a freak in the newsroom for a lot of reasons. And I'm still a freak. So, you know, just ask anybody, especially my husband. I am very. that though. I love that you can make fun of me and we can make fun of one another. And we're very self-deprecating. So I think that's also essential in a friendship. We don't take one another too, we don't take our differences too seriously. And we can joke about it. So we used to have most of our debates took place in the makeup room while we're getting makeup for for the show. And we would debate everything from theology to to politics. Did you ever get mad at me in those times? Because I can beat my humor can be a little edgy. No. The only time I got mad at you. And we didn't shy. away from the hard topics. Like, we talked about religion. We talked about theology. We talked about

politics. We talked about some real heavy and hard things. The only thing that pissed me off, Dan, is we would have this funny banter behind the scenes, you know, and then I would take it on camera. And then, you know, and you would play like kind of Mr. Nice guy. And I would get like threatening emails from people, especially women, saying I was so, I needed to stop making fun and stop poking fun at you. And I was like, if you only, if you had any idea, he just abused me in the makeup room. If you had any idea what he said when the cameras were off, the very first day that I anchored GMA, we're literally, we're getting ready to go live. It's a two shot. The camera's zooming in on us. Our mics aren't hot yet. And you look over at me and do you remember what you said?

Yeah, I do. What did you say? I said, don't embarrass me. And I used to play. Oh, you used to play that so hard. The Mr. Nice guy. And I felt the wrath of it. That's the only thing that pissed me off. I used to play this game where, like, as you know, in the commercial breaks, I would wind you up.

And also the other Sarah Haynes, who's now, who's still on the view and was with us in those days on weekend. Good Morning America. I would be just poking at you guys and getting you wound up. And then the cameras go on and I would be Mr. Nice guy. And you guys would still be making fun of me. And then the viewers on Twitter would go nuts. They went mental. We were, we needed to stop.

They were going to stop watching the show because it was unfair how we treated you. And I'm like, oh, you have no idea. None. But it was fun. And look, I mean, we used to make fun of you because you didn't know sports, right? Like you hired my, I think nine and JJ was nine or ten at the time to like run your fantasy football team for a couple of years. And I think he won. Like my son, you hired him to beat a bunch of your 50 year old buddies. And he did. I think he, I think you guys won one year, didn't you? And we did win. Yeah. Did you ever tell your friends that nine. Oh yeah. Everybody knew. What did they say? No, they were pissed. But they sent the money, which I gave to JJ. You get, yes, you did.

You thank you for funding, funding him. So you invited my kids into our relationship and our friendship, too. And I saw a lot of growth from you, too, when you became a father yourself, too. That was really fun for me to watch because you guys weren't sure you were going to be able to have kids. And then just to see a different side of you, I think your world kind of opened up a little bit, too. Yeah. And that kid, I can't believe how old is Alexander now? He's 10.

And I kind of wanted a girl. I know. I definitely wanted a girl. You did? And now I got this. Yeah, never admitted that to me. He knows. But I'm very happy I got him. I remember one of the producers at Nightline, which was one of the places that I worked at ABC, Bianca was pregnant and I was talking to Claire, this producer, and I had a bunch of kids. I was bemoaning the fact that I knew it was going to be a boy. And she said, he's going to be your little guy. Like he's going to be, he's going to go everywhere with you. And I was really stuck in my head because that is what happened. Like we, he travels with me on all my

business trips and I do a lot of traveling. I pull him out of school all the time and we've been all over the world together. And he, as you know, got me interested in sports. I'm not really that interested, but I'm obsessed with him. So I follow it very closely. We go to, we go to sporting events all the time, talk about it all the time. So yes, if that counts as personal growth. I think that and that brings up like some of the science and research behind it. And I want to hear more about how you think you've grown personally because you put yourself out there and you are starting to enjoy something that your son loves. You don't know a thing about sports. I'm not trying to make fun of you, but like you used to joke, you know, at a hockey game, they, you know, they would

throw it on the football. Like you just, you, you also were very self-deprecating about it. But the fact that you have a sports loving son and you were, A, never interested in sports and didn't know anything about sports. The irony is not lost on me, but I want to hear how that has pushed you in a second, but let's talk about the main reasons why it is important to have friends in your life that are different than you. I sent you the list, Dan, you have the outline. Okay, from my nerd pad. I'll read the first one. The first reason is reduced prejudice and increased empathy or just a broader perspective. And I thought this was fascinating. There's a lot of studies, a lot of research, but it says friends with different backgrounds, cultures, and beliefs can introduce you to new ideas and ways of looking at the world, helping you see beyond your own limited perspective, understanding their perspectives fosters compassion and empathy.

We've talked about this offline, but there's this idea of the contact hypothesis that if you make friends who are different from you, like it really can reduce polarization and bias and hatred. What's that? There's some expression from the former congressman whose name is escaping me right now. It's hard to hate up close. And if you get to know somebody, especially if you're engaged, my understanding is this is especially true if you're engaged in a mutual activity, like some sort of civic organization where you're working toward a goal, a shared goal together, that it really, and essentially that's what you and I were doing as journalists. We were working toward making this show to. together and it forced us to interact in in deep, meaningful ways. And that can, it just inexorably leads to sort of opening your mind. So I think, I think that's really interesting and promising for us as a culture. Like, we seem so incredibly divided. We are so incredibly divided. The data, the research and the survey data back this up. But there is a way out. I agree. It is to get to know it. And I do think that we have to hold our media responsible for a lot of the division, Dan, because we do not, it feels

like we live in two different worlds. I mean, if you were to look at one network's coverage as opposed to another, the last couple of weeks, you'd think we lived in two different America's just based on what we cover. And what we cover is determined by our bias. And when there isn't the ideological diversity, diversity of thought, all of that in a newsroom, we're going to cover it a certain way. And we're going to spin it a certain way. So I do think the media, needs to be held accountable because it has created and sowed this division in our country. I do think at the end of the day, we're so much more united than we are divided. And yes, we're divided about certain things. But when you actually sit down and talk to someone and get to know them and

befriend them, you understand where they're coming from and you're not going to reduce them. You're not going to necessarily call them a bigot or a racist. And yes, some people need to be called out for their racism. Okay. It's inexcusable. But when you sit down with them, mom and a friend and you understand, oh, she's voting this way because she has chronic illness and her kids have chronic illness and she wants to see, you know, our food and drug administration overhauled. Or you sit down with another family and they have a child that's, you know, LGBTQ, you understand where they're coming from. And when you just sit down with the goal of learning and not agreeing, you know, I like to tell my kids, God gave us two ears and one

mouth. So zip it and listen. And I'm trying to do a better job of this, but listening and learning. And that's something that Sharon McMahon, Sharon Say-So, America's government teacher, she's been, you guys have been in conversation before I know she's been on my podcast. She said something that really resonated with me. And she said, the goal is to learn. The goal isn't to agree. The goal is to learn from somebody else. And I think there's always something we can learn. And when you don't reduce somebody to their policy. Dan, I used to get asked a lot. Like I would, right when I left ABC News, and I spoke at a couple of different conventions. I continue to speak, but I spoke at this one conservative Christian convention. And they're like, how can you, how could you work with Whoopi

and Joy? That question always pissed me off. Okay. Because A, you're assuming that I am a conservative, but I'm very, I'm very independent. You know, I have certain liberal views and certain conservative views. But I said, you know what? Why are we reducing people to their policy? We're You actually get to know them. And from my own faith background, I'm like, this is my response. I said, you know what? God loves whoop you enjoy just as much as she loves me, just as much as she loves you. They were fearfully and wonderfully made.

You know, they're human beings above all else. And if we can't just respect people and their viewpoint, then I think we have a problem. And I think we've become moral narcissists when we think that our viewpoint is the only viewpoint. So anyway, I didn't mean to go off on a tangent there. but broader perspective, understanding their perspectives, fosters compassion and empathy. That's something you talk a lot about with 10% happier is compassion and empathy. Do you think that's something that you or your audience are able to exercise, Dan? I think it's hard. It takes a lot of work. But I do think it's possible. You know, I love that phrase moral narcissism. And, you know, I come more out of a Buddhist context these days. When we first met, I was a little bit more of a straight up atheist. I would say, now more of like an agnostic slash Buddhist. And, you know, in the Dharma and the Buddhist teaching, there's a lot of emphasis on not being attached to your views. In fact, there's a quote from the Buddha that I love, which is people who are, I'm going to mangle it, but it's roughly along the lines of

people who are overly attached to their views and opinions, wander the world, annoying other people. And I think that's just, that's just so hilarious and true. And there's some modern psychological research that shows that we cling to our views and opinions the way we cling to our possessions. When our views are challenged, it's the term that we that's often used among psychologists is seizing and freezing. And so this is all to say it's hard and necessary work to do to just build on something you said about, you know, if you're going to try this, if you're going to have a conversation with somebody you disagree with. If you feel, you know, safe and resourced and sturdy enough to do it, the cardinal rule from what I can tell is to not try to change anybody's mind as you articulated there, Paul.

And I spent some time as a reporter with this group called The Braver Angels, whose system, it, this group brings together reds and blues from across America. I love that. Their system of conversation was designed by a marriage counselor, which I think is awesome. And his, this guy, Bill Dardy, who's been on my show, and the cardinal rule is never try to change anybody's mind. And what you should aim for instead is accurate disagreement. And I think that's fantastic. I do want to point out that I get on both sides why there are some people who would feel like it's unsafe to enter into this discussion. You know, because while I agree with you that the vast majority of human beings are, moderate and fair-minded and not cruel. I think on the left, there are people who would look at Trump specifically and say, well, there's a pretty good track record to say he's anti-trans, racist, and misogynist. And I'm not saying any of these. I'm not making these accusations. I understand. I understand. I understand. I understand. I understand. I think somebody on the left, including friends of mine who have trans kids, could draw that conclusion. I want to be fair and point out

that on the right, there are a lot of people who are really worried specifically about abortion, which they view as murder and might not feel like they're in a, it's a safe place to have these discussions with somebody on the left. While we're encouraging people to explore friendships across the aisle or across gender or racial divides, I just want to specifically as a pertains to politics, leave the door open to people who, you know, for people to opt out if they don't feel like their nervous system can handle it. Absolutely. But if you are going to venture into those waters, do so with the goal of learning and not agreeing. Try to understand where the other person is coming from and what informs them, you're not going to change their mind. Like,

when's the last time you ever sat down with somebody and they're like, oh, you make a good point. You've changed about you. You're not going to change anybody's mind. But what you're going to do, is you're going to understand. I understand now where she's coming from and why she's voting a certain way because she has her child is gay or trans. Or I understand why this person is voting this way because her kid has chronic illness or, you know, because her daughter doesn't want to be to play against a male in female sports and get injured. Maybe that's happened to somebody. So I think just sitting down understanding, like I just want to listen. I don't have to agree. And you can respectfully disagree. Like, you don't, you don't have to be offended. Like, be

unoffendable. Like, what is, is there anything that you can say? Really, that's going to offend me? No, I believe what I believe, Dan, you believe what you believe, what you believe isn't going to offend me. I think we all have a right to our own views, but assuming that our views are the only correct views, again, it can be called moral narcissism. And that's another Sharon McMahon phrase, by the way. Number one, reduced prejudice and increased empathy, also known as a broader perspective. Number two, this is really fascinating, personal growth and critical thinking skills. You cannot, I mean, in debate, Dan, you took debate. You're a master debater.

Okay. Like, I'm assuming you took debate because you debate well. Did you ever take a debate class? Yes, I did. Okay. I feel like you did. Dan, you couldn't accurately. debate unless you were presented with the posing information, correct? Like critical thinking, you know, I'm a Christian. I firmly believe, you know, you have to be ready to explain for the hope

that is within you. And you do that by learning the facts. And the facts come from red states and blue states and purple states. You cannot develop critical thinking skills unless you're presented with opposing information, right? And so I think that's something we need to do with our kids like I live in, you know, my kids have been exposed to a lot. They've lived in Chicago and New York and now a small town in South Carolina where we live and getting them to develop critical thinking skills and not, again, reducing people to a policy. Like during the election, you know, they would come back and repeat some trope or repeat some phrase that they heard and, oh, Trump would be better for the economy. And so I would say, okay, why do you think Trump would be better for the economy?

and getting that, you know, getting them to develop those critical thinking skills, asking questions, leaning into the curiosity, but also being presented with opposing information. That's why I'm a big fan of cross checking, cross referencing. I don't really watch television news all that much anymore. And if I do, I try to counterbalance it. It's fascinating to me to see like, again, the two Americas. But it's really important that we are presented with with opposing information. to help us develop critical thinking skills. And we cannot develop critical thinking skills if we're in our own echo chamber. Echo chambers, you're surrounded by people that look like you, think like you, sound like you, talk like you. That's close-mindedness.

I mean, let's just call it what it is. I want to be open-minded and all the research supports that interacting with people who hold different political opinions enhances cognitive complexity, which is the ability to consider multiple perspectives at once.

Yeah, just to build on that, there's also data to show that open-mindedness or cognitive complexity can lead to a reduction in anxiety and boost in happiness. And it also can lead to more success. This faculty of cognitive flexibility has been shown to lead to more successful startups and American presidencies. So there's a lot to be said here. And one way to do this, and the debt are a little mixed on this one. But one way that I found very helpful is to broaden my media diet, to not just read one outlet. I agree with your whole heart. Or not just listen to one kind of podcast.

It's been very helpful. It's a kind of self-gaslighting that can be really illuminating. I would just add one last thing. And this is also from Sharon McMahon, who's been on both of our shows and is really just an American treasure. I love her. She's great. You know, there's a difference between your. opinions and your values. You can change your opinions, but nobody's asking you to, like,

abandon your core values. So that and, and understanding that difference creates, I think, more ease in all of this. That's a really good caveat. So you can change your opinions, but you're not going to change, you don't have to change your core values. Yeah, one thing that would really frustrate me, especially during the election cycle, is that I would hear, I can't believe so-and-so endorsed Kamala. I'm never supporting them again. Or I can't believe so-and-so endorse Trump, or like Carrie Underwood when she's saying at the inauguration canceled everywhere. The cancel culture, like, why are we so offended? Why are we so offended?

And yes, I understand there are very real issues going on that impact each of us. But each of us has a reason for voting a certain way. And we won't know what that reason is until we sit down and talk with someone. But the cancel culture is something that's so frustrating. If you aren't following somebody that challenges your ideology and makes you a little uncomfortable, Dan, then I think you need to branch out. Like my media diet is similar to yours. Some of it just makes me a little cringy, but I need to hear it, right? If someone post something on Instagram that I don't personally agree with, I'm not going to unfollow them because that's their right and that's their view. And my view isn't the only one. I have my core values and they have theirs.

but the cancel culture, we're surrounding ourselves with like-minded individuals. And yes, to some extent, you need to have those types of individuals in your life. But it also leads to a very narrow-minded and closed-minded life and can lead to a lot of other issues, decreased empathy, like the things that we're very much talking about. So it is important. So I challenge anybody listening or watching to just diversify their media palette, diversify their who they're following. Just open yourself up a little bit and try to be unoffendable.

So I really love Dan. Ironically, I love the BBC and the AP. But I love following 1440. It's a, it's a daily newsletter. You're familiar with them. And 1440 is the year the printing press originated. It's also the number of minutes in a day, I think, right? Yes, I is.

Yes, is it? Hold on. Should we ask Siri? Let me ask Siri. Hold on. Siri, how many minutes are in a day? 1,440. She didn't say it because she's on Do Not Disturb. I didn't know that. I knew that 1440 was the printing press. But I've also noticed, Dan, that reading my news kind of lowers my anxiety when I watch it and it's on all day.

I start to like, I can feel the anxiety building because we know, you know, if it bleeds, it leads, right? If it bleeds, it leads the newscast. And so there's a lot of sensationalism. Some of the other points. So we talked about, number one, broader perspective. and increased empathy. Number two, personal growth, critical thinking. You know, number three and four are somewhat similar, greater emotional intelligence and better conflict resolution skills, which is fascinating. But I want to get into the increased social awareness that can come with having friends that are different. Social cohesion, social awareness, having diverse friends can help you become more aware of social issues and inequalities promoting a more inclusive mindset. That's why it's important to have friends that are of different race, different religion, you know,

especially at a climate now, you know, talking to your friends of color or talking to your LGBTQ friends, you know, where are they coming from? Where are your friends? All different aspects. I think that the social awareness aspect, just being socially aware and not so socially limited and narrow is really, really important. And it can help bridge social divides. I think what I'm about to say is true, but I'll just float it. To me, like the bottom line, of all of these. And we're listing these various benefits that have shown up in the research. But to me, they all kind of come down to empathy and compassion. I would agree. I would agree with that. There's an underlying tone of compassion and empathy for sure. Which can sound a little bit like eating your vegetables, but people with more empathy and compassion are healthier. And this is a research backed finding. There are health benefits to increasing your compassion.

And I think it might be worth saying a little bit about the differences between empathy and compassion and some of the fears that people have when they're told that compassion is good for them, especially in this context around politics. Just to say, empathy generally is understood as feeling other people's feelings. And that can be overwhelming. It can lead to burnout. Compassion is, it's a little bit of a tweak on that inner posture. It's feeling other people's feelings plus having the desire to help. So that little tweak is ennobling and empowering, even when there's nothing you can do. So if you're watching images of people suffering on the news, even if you have this little phrase in your mind, may you be free from suffering, which is a Buddhist phrase, that chain or you know, you can make it, you can tweak it to whatever faith tradition you come from.

It's basically a prayer. It's a chant or a prayer, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's just one thing to say. And then the other thing to say is I hear a lot from. people, oh, you're a privileged white guy, comfortable. I mean, you're preaching compassion. But I

can't do that. I can't afford that luxury. And the first half of that is true that I am a privileged white guy. And the second half of that, I think, is up for debate. I'm not here to tell anybody how they should live and you don't have to listen to me at all. But from my understanding of not only the modern psychological research, but also the contemplative traditions that are so powerful for so many of us today, from the Abrahamic traditions to Buddhism, there is this emphasis on a kind of a wise selfishness to use the term that the Dalai Lama uses, that is in your best interest. And Paula, you used this word before, like understanding why somebody voted the way they voted, understanding that if you came out of that womb and lived that life, you would likely

have the same views as that person. That is very different from. endorsing it or being a doormat or giving that person a hug. It's just a mere understanding of why people do what they do and the fact that you might do those same things. That's my understanding of compassion and it doesn't make you weaker. It actually, according to the data, makes you stronger. It's a cleaner burning fuel if you want to be effective in the world. I really, I like that distinction. It's actually trying to do something about it, even if that's a mantra. chant or a prayer because it does empower you to want to make the situation better instead of just carrying that burden because that's what empathy can kind of feel like I'm putting myself in

their shoes and I'm carrying that burden but then what am I supposed to do about it? So compassion kind of empowers you to do something about it even if it's something as simple as a chant or a mantra or a prayer. So that's really and I would agree with you, Dan. I think that compassion and empathy is kind of the underlying value, the common denominator in all of this that we're talking about. The last benefit is the mental and emotional health benefits. Research suggests that diverse social networks can positively impact mental health by reducing prejudice and promoting a sense of belonging. I'll give you an example of reducing prejudice.

A couple of different examples, Dan, when we talk about having people in your life that are different, You know, we live in a small town in South Carolina. We don't really have, we have trailers and mobile homes here. We have Appalachia. We have a lot of poverty, but poverty looks a lot different. When you say trailer park or mobile home, what comes to your mind, right? My kids have friends that live in mobile homes and trailer parks. I had certain narratives in my mind about what that looked like. They're totally different than what it looks like. Also, on the other hand, I think. I think. having the socioeconomic diversity in my kids' lives, yes, they're growing up totally different than I did. We grew up with very little. I mean, very little. My kids pretty much have everything they could ever need or want, but understanding that that's not always the case for everyone, understanding that diversity looks like socioeconomic diversity. And some of these kids at school can't afford a school lunch, they can't afford a backpack. You know, what can we do to step in, and fill that gap. But having an understanding of some of those differences, changing the narratives

and the norms to exposing my kids. Yes, their friends. Some of them live in trailer parks and mobile homes. And that, to me, is diversity. That's a different kind of diversity that we don't talk about enough. It's socioeconomic diversity. Making sure that we are talking about these people, regardless of your socioeconomic status with dignity and respect, because it's not about how much money in your bank account. Some people have more. Some people have less. But the socioeconomic aspect is one of the types of diversity that, you know, here, especially in South Carolina, that we are being exposed to. The other kind of, you know, diversity, my husband, you've met John, he's a tall, skinny white guy. He coached at an HBCU. So he coached for six years at Central State University,

Dan, in the Dayton, Ohio area. And that was really eye-opening for us. It was an eye-opening experience. My husband actually, John got his master's degree from an HBCU while he was there. He started their intramural program. You talk about putting yourself in a situation, having certain expectations or certain narratives, but putting yourself in that situation, you learned something so much different. Some of our biggest learning moments and moments of compassion and empathy. And the moments that have, I would say, I don't want to say, shocked us the most about what we learned and like kind of like shook up the norms is when we're, we've been in those types of situations and been exposed to people that didn't look like us, didn't think like us, didn't have the same amount in their bank account, all the different types of diversity that we're talking about. But we learned so much and we realized that we did have preconceived notions until we put ourselves into those situations. And I am being vulnerable here and I hope people like, you know, turn this against me. But like, I've learned a lot about my own preconceived notions. We all have prejudices. We all have biases. And you don't. And you don't. You don't. You don't. You don't. really realize that you have those sometimes until you're put in that situation. I want to

continue to be pushed. I want to grow. I want to critically think. I want to be compassionate. I want to be empathetic. And Dan, I want to ask you, I know this is kind of just like a small and even microcosm example of what we're talking about, but you never liked sports. You couldn't care less about sports. And now your son loves them. How is that opened up your world to put yourself in Alexander's world, do you have this sports-loving son and you couldn't give a flying freak about sports, but now you're in it? Like, how is that opened up your world? They still maybe dismiss the fact that especially when men who don't know each other are together, they would just revert to talking about sports as a empty small talk, you know, sports and long care or whatever.

But actually, I found that being able, being conversant in sports has allowed me to connect with people that I might not otherwise connect with. And many of these people are quite different from me. And it's not only the fellow dads here in suburban New York, but people I encounter in the course of my day-to-day life moving through the world who

may not have anything really to do with my intimate life. I can connect with them about sports. And going to these sporting events, you know, where, you know, you're just interacting with lots of people. my son is a big fan of the commanders because my brother-in-law is a as a pro scout for the commanders. I don't know that. So we've traveled to go a lot of the game. Yeah, yeah, that's a big part of this.

So we've traveled all over the country to go to commanders games. And, you know, we meet other commanders fans who are staying in the same hotel with us. And this whole discussion at root is about empathy and compassion. And what is that, if not connection? And what do we know about the human animal? We know that the human animal is deeply social. That is how we survived as a species. And we live in a world that, as I often say, militates against social connection.

And the extent to which you can counter program against these larger societal forces that want you with your nose and your phone, want you stuck in your own information silo, want you pursuing your own individualistic aims without thinking about the larger good. if you can turn the volume down on some of these very powerful macro forces and make sure that your life has social connection, not only with your friends and family and other intimates, but also just the world writ large, it is going to be in your best interest. And that's why the Dalai Lama talks about wise selfishness. Dan, this whole evolution, the compassion evolution and journey that you've been on is just so fascinating to me, the empathy evolution. So I love to see this side. of you. I'm still going to make mean jokes to you. Yeah, but you know when you're going to make the jokes when nobody, it's like not when we're recording and then people will think I'm the jerk. It's always going to backfire on me. It's I can't keep my mouth shut and you have perfect timing. It's the truth, right? And we'll leave it at that. But I just want to say I am a more critical

thinker. I'm a better person. I'm a more well-rounded person because of having friends like you in my life. So I'm not going to say that I owe everything about myself to you. Okay, Dan, I draw a line. All right. I know you're like waiting for me to give you a little bit more, but I'm not. That's the most I'm going to concede. So, but I do, I do think we were a good team because, you know, We really respected the hell out of one another, but we pushed one another respectfully. And we respected where the other person was coming from, even if it wasn't where we were coming from. So that's all I want to say. Yes. Yeah. Well, I completely agree. And just so you're not hanging out there alone on this brave admission you made before,

about having had preconceived notions about specific communities of people, I'll say that before I started reporting on evangelicals and before I became such close friends with you, I had lots of preconceived notions. You know, there's that famous, infamous line from the Washington Post about evangelicals that they're uneducated and easily led. That's bullshit. Many, many, many, many evangelicals are extremely highly educated and there's an enormous amount of diversity within the evangelical world and a lot of intellectual ferment and fervor.

And so, yeah, spending time with you and lots of other folks who come from a similar background has opened my eyes. And so, yeah, I appreciate you. So basically you owe everything to me is what you're saying. Yes. We'll just leave it right there so you can't come back with a snarky response. I'm kidding. I'd still think the Jew and the Gentile has a ring to it if you ever want to do a podcast or some sort of show.

You know what I would love to do, Dan, I'm going to put this out there. I think a really powerful show could be you take two polar opposites. Okay. Maybe they're ideologically opposed. They're opposed. in some capacity, but they're essentially seen as being on two sides, you know, two opposite sides of the spectrum. And you bring them together in a show and they're doing one thing together that they have in common. Maybe they both love to cook Indian food or maybe they both love to play tennis or they

like to crochet or they like to deep sea fish or something. But you find that one thing in common with two diametrically opposed people and you create a show about it. And then imagine the conversation that they could have while they are participating in this one thing that they have in common, I think that could go a long way. And I still hold the media, I think, responsible and liable for creating a lot of the division because we are not as diametrically opposed as it feels like we are at times. We do have a lot more in common. We need more compassion, more empathy. And I think it starts by focusing on what we do have in common and listening and learning. So anyway, you want to EP that show with me?

Sure. Okay. I think, do you think it's a terrible idea? You can be honest. No, I think it's a terrific idea. Bill Dardy from Braver Angels should be your moderator. Why don't you, you want to connect, connect me? Sure.

I don't, this is not, I'm not, this is not, I just want to be an EP. I just want to put it out there because I think it could be a really powerful show. Yeah, so. I agree. Yeah. All righty, well, I love you, friend, Addie. Do you want to say anything? she was bored to death by this conversation, by the way. She's awesome. She slept the whole time. But sent hugs to Alexander and to Bianca. And I'll tell the kids that I had a great day with Mr. Dan, as they still call you. And John says hi, by the way. Yes. Say hi to the family. Love you right back. And thanks for doing all the work, as usual. I'm glad we're friends. I'm so glad we're friends. Yeah, I did do all the work, by the way.

That's right. That's all right. See, look at you. Look at that open admission right there. But now I'm happy to. I'm glad that we were able to do this. I love you, friend. Thanks for pushing me to be a better version of myself. And sometimes just pushing me. So.