Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Joseph Goldstein On: Karma, Rebirth, And Other Planes Of Existence

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

We explore the intellectual and practical aspects of these mystical and esoteric concepts.Joseph Goldstein is a cofounder of the Insight Meditation Society and the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies, both in Barre, Massachusetts. He is the author of Mindfulness: A Practical Guide to Awakening, A Heart Full of Peace, One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism, Insight Meditation and The Experience of Insight: A Simple and Direct Guide to Buddhist Meditation. Joseph has studied and practiced meditation since 1967 under the guidance of eminent teachers from India, Burma, and Tibet and he leads Insight Meditation retreats around the world.In this episode we talk about:Why Joseph has become more comfortable talking about these concepts as he’s gotten olderWhy karma should not be seen as a deterministic principle that rules every aspect of our livesThe connection between karma and past livesWhat he thinks about the concept of free will and how it relates to karma And why skeptics would do well to adopt a mindset characterized by the “willing suspension of disbelief” Additional Links:Joseph’s Dharma Seed Talk: Understanding Karma Dipa Ma: The Life and Legacy of a Buddhist MasterFree Will by Sam HarrisIMS’s Forest Refuge ProgramThe Barre Center for Buddhist StudiesRelated Episodes:Click here to listen to the previous episodes in our tenth anniversary series. Nirvana | Joseph GoldsteinTo order the revised tenth anniversary edition of 10% Happier: click here For tickets to Dan Harris: Celebrating 10 Years of 10% Happier at Symphony Space: click hereSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/joseph-goldstein-742See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Dan here. Before we start the show, I want to tell you about a live recording of this podcast that we're doing in New York City on March 28th. I will be interviewing two frequent flyers from this show, the legendary meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein, who will be just coming off a three-month solo silent meditation retreat, and Dr. Mark Epstein, a Buddhist therapist and bestselling author. The event will actually be a celebration of the 10th anniversary of my first book, 10% happier, and a percentage of the proceeds will go to the New York Insight Meditation Center. Come early if you want for a VIP guided meditation and Q&A with me. Thanks to our friends over at Audible for sponsoring this show and the event.

Tickets on sale right now at symphonyspace.org. This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How we doing? In this episode, the great meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein is going to go out on a limb. He's going to be talking about something he has historically shied away from publicly, the Buddhist cosmology, specifically concepts such as karma, rebirth, other realms of existence, and psychic powers. As many of you probably know, I am personally hardwired for skepticism, but I found this

conversation to be fascinating, not only intellectually, but also on many practical levels. We talk about why Joseph has become more comfortable talking about these more esoteric and mystical concepts as he's gotten older, why karma should not be seen as a deterministic principle that rules every aspect of our lives, the connection between karma and past lives, what he thinks about the concept of free will and how it relates to karma, and why skeptics would do well to adopt a mindset

characterized by the willing suspension of disbelief. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Joseph, he is the co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society and also the Barry Center for Buddhist Studies, both in Barry, Massachusetts. He's written several books, including Mindfulness, One Dharma, and The Experience of Insight. He has studied and practiced meditation since 1967

under the guidance of eminent teachers from India, Burma, and Tibet. And Joseph was also a very prominent character in my own first book called 10% Happier, after which this podcast is named. That book, by the way, just turned 10 years old and I just put out a revised anniversary edition with a new preface and appendix filled with meditation instructions. And all month here on the show, I'm going back and interviewing some key players from the book.

And Joseph is certainly one of those key players. He'll also, not for nothing, be a key player in my next book. But back on 10% Happier, I actually wrote a whole chapter in that book about how I had developed an increasing openness to the more mystical and metaphysical aspects of Buddhism, but I ended up cutting it at the last minute because I was worried it would turn off skeptics. So clearly things have changed because we are dedicating a whole episode to it today. Joseph Goldstein coming up. First though, some BSP, blatant self-promotion.

Don't forget, I'm doing a live podcast taping in New York City on March 28th. I'll be talking to Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher, who will have just wrapped up his annual three-month solo silent meditation retreat, so we'll talk to him about what he learned. I'll also be talking to Dr. Mark Epstein, a Buddhist therapist who's been on this show many times and has been a great friend to me and a mentor for many, many years. There will be a band there, mates of state, and you'll have one of your first opportunities to buy 10% happier merch, which we just started making.

Oh, and finally, if you come early and pay a little extra, you can get a VIP ticket where you can get a guided meditation from me and a Q&A. Tickets on sale right now at symphonyspace.org. We're doing this event, by the way, as a celebration of the 10th anniversary of a book I wrote called 10% Happier. Shortly after I wrote the book, I not only started this podcast, but I co-founded the 10% Happier app. And in celebration of the 10th anniversary,

until the end of the month, you can get the app for 40% off. Get this deal before it ends by going to 10% dot com slash 40 and dive into guided meditations and insightful courses designed for you. That's 10%, one word all spelled out, dot com slash 40 for 40% off your subscription. When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent.

Check out Audible Canadian originals, including The Downloaded, a sci-fi adventure featuring Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca. AirPods Pro with adaptive audio automatically keeps out the sounds you don't want to hear, so you can listen to your music and lowers your music to let in the sounds you do need to hear. Hi there. Hi, what can I get you? I'll have a strawberry mango coconut probiotic smoothie with wheatgrass. Anything else? Extra wheatgrass. Here you go. AirPods Pro with adaptive audio available on AirPods Pro second generation when enabled.

Joseph Goldstein, welcome back to the show. Oh, thanks, Dan. Good to be here. Once again. Yes, once again. You get extra, extra, extra credit for doing this, for playing while hurt. You're a little bit sick today. So thank you for doing this, even though you don't feel great. Well, we'll see how it goes.

Well, speaking of Well, we'll see how it goes. Well, speaking of that, we really have the most minimal of possible plans. We were on the phone a couple of weeks ago and we were talking, among other things, about what we could talk about in this interview. And you, if memory serves, and that's a big if, because my memory is faulty. If memory serves, you said something about being interested in talking of late about Buddhist cosmology. And I said, great, I love talking about whatever you're interested in,

although I had no idea what you were referring to. So anyway, I'll say all of that. Does that all ring true to you? It does ring true. I may regret having said it, but here we are. Okay, so when you say the Buddhist cosmology, what are you referring to? Okay, so the Buddhist cosmology is really a very big map of the range of the phenomenal world, including our internal experience.

So it includes things like other planes of existence, includes things like other planes of existence, you know, and it also includes ideas of rebirth and karma. And it's those three things really which are intertwined in terms of understanding. And the reason I suggested it originally is because some of these aspects like rebirth and other planes of existence, other realms of existence, for most people are outside the range of their own experience. So there has been a hesitation really to talk about these things even though they're a central part of the Buddhist teachings. So I thought that even though it may be beyond most people's direct experience, it might be interesting to at least talk a little bit about these three aspects and how they interrelate,

because they are a very important part of the teachings. So that's what the original motivation was, and that's kind of frame for the discussion. You know, karma and rebirth and other realms. I'm very excited. I am actually, I was being somewhat facetious when I said I had no idea what you're talking about. I actually really want to talk about all three of these

as a bundle. But before we dive in, what has changed for you? What, why? You mentioned that people tend to shy away from this stuff, but you're cool talking about it now. Why? I think that as I get older, I'm less concerned with being cautious in sharing the teachings and trying to curate, okay, well, what will be easily understood and what can people relate

to at this time of my life? And having spent almost 50 years teaching all of this, I don't know, I just feel more willing and might even say confident in just putting it out and letting it land as it lands. And the reason I feel that is because sometime before I die, I thought it would be good just to put out the full scope of what I understand the Buddhist teachings to be. That's really why it's coming up for me now, you know, in these years. So that's so interesting. You're almost 80. I sincerely hope we've got a good 20, 25 years left out of you. I sincerely hope we've got a good 20, 25 years left out of you. But in this period, you're thinking, OK, well, I've been studying the Dharma for nearly 60 years,

and I've been teaching it and doing my best to make it approachable and appetizing to largely Western audiences. And that has meant that I've held back a little bit on some aspects of the Dharma, and now I'd like to foreground it. Yes, that sums it up. Well, my suspicion, and you'll please edit me, my suspicion is that the most easily graspable aspect of this troika that you've listed of karma, rebirth, and other planes

of existence. My suspicion is karma will be the easiest place to start. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I would, because even though one of the Buddha's comments about understanding karma is that it's impossible to understand it in its fullness, that only a Buddha mind can really trace all the cause and effect relationships. But still, we can get a pretty good sense just within this life of how our actions bring about certain results.

And so I think it is the most accessible of those three and we can really have some meaningful understanding of it in our own lives and experience and an important understanding. Just as a kind of background to the whole discussion perhaps on karma, the Buddha had a wonderful phrase describing the understanding of it. He called understanding the law of karma is like the light of the world, you know, because it really explains not completely, but in large part, the trajectory of how our lives unfold, you know, for better and for worse. You know, and so when we have some understanding of the law of karma, we have a lot more agency

in the choices we make, understanding the various kinds of results that come from different kinds of actions. So it's a powerful force, and it really influenced my own life very early on. Just as an example, when I first became interested in Buddhism and was beginning the study and the practice, one of the first teachings is the teaching of generosity. And I really took that in, in a meaningful way and undertook it as a practice, as something that can be developed and strengthened,

not simply an acknowledgement that it's a good idea. And I've just seen the tremendous fruit in so many ways of undertaking that as a practice. So it's just one example of understanding how different actions bring different results, and so what choices do we make in our lives? So when he says the light of the world, the Buddha, he means that, I'm guessing here, that if you understand how karma operates, that understanding plays the same role as light does

in our conventional life, because we're able to see the path forward, see the way things work. Correctly, correctly. It just illuminates. It illuminates our own unfolding worlds, you know, and what happens and some understanding of why things happen in a certain way. But just maybe this might be a helpful point to interject now, you know, right at the beginning of this discussion.

Sometimes people have the mistaken notion that karma is determinative of everything that happens in our lives. And the Buddha was quite clear that karma action and its results karma action and its results accounts for much of what happens but it's not the total picture there are many other causes for things to happen among which are just kind of the laws of nature you know the laws of physics or chemistry or biology or not everything that happens is a karmic result so are you saying the Buddha had a left space for randomness? I wouldn't say randomness because everything has causes behind it, but the causes are not always our own actions.

I see. You know, if there's some huge devastation from climate change, you know, or just from a big storm, right? That has nothing to do with our karma. That has to do with atmospheric conditions. So it's just important to realize that karma is a very major determinant or conditioning factor for what arises, but it is not the only one. So that really keeps it from being understood as some deterministic principle that rules every aspect of our lives, because it's not that.

I think when I was writing 10% Happier back 10-15 years ago, right around the time we were first meeting and I was first encountering Buddhism, I was, and this is one of my least attractive traits, quite dismissive and reflexively judgmental of the idea of karma because culturally, it's often presented as, oh, well, karma's a bitch, or there's a radiohead song, "'Karma Police Arrest This Man.'"

Like, you know, if I say a bad word I'll be reborn in some mechanistic way as a Gila monster or you're gonna be reborn as a podcaster Clearly my past lives are suspect Well played I guess in my mind I also tied it to the what I still believe to be a very noxious meme, which is the power of positive thinking or the law of attraction that you can control the physical world through the power of your thoughts, which I think is easily disprovable. So you mentioned natural disasters. If you talk to somebody who believes in the power

of positive thinking, I will sometimes say to them, okay, so if I'm a little kid born in Haiti the day before a massive earthquake, does that mean I was thinking incorrectly in utero? Yeah. Of course not. Right. So in my mind, I think I had these two ideas mixed up and you keep using the phrase action

and result. And so, there is a very basic, not supernatural way to understand karma as cause and effect. Yes. So, I can give just a few really simple examples that I think everybody can relate to and appreciate. When we're being generous, for example, generally, what's the response that's going to come back to us from other people? Generally, people are going to be very friendly and loving and not angry and not, you know, there will be a positive effect from our act of generosity. There'll be a powerful effect, you know, if we're just an angry person all the time, and

that's our mode of being in the world. Well, then how will people relate to us in that situation? Probably quite differently. You know, and so just in very simple ways, we can see that wholesome mind states, just in kind of a general way, not so specifically, but in a general way, will bring good results in our lives. So that seems quite simple and straightforward. Of course, the law of karma is much more complex than that, but that gives an indication of the principle involved.

You've covered it a little bit, but I think it's worth just really emphasizing it here. Based on that very simple understanding of karma, that our actions create results, and that cultivating certain mind states, positive mind states, wholesome mind states, can set us up for more positive results in the world. Can you just say a little bit more about how we can harness that understanding, which might even sound so simple as to be a truism, how we could harness that understanding in our own lives?

I think there are many ways, but the kind of one basic frame, which I really like to talk about a lot, although I don't often so much, but in the discussion of the practice of metta or loving kindness, I really like to emphasize the quality of kindness rather than the loving part. Because love is just such a complex word and people have so many associations and am I loving enough or I'm not loving enough or what does it actually mean? Whereas kindness just seems to me very down to earth, you know, very pragmatic and it's not difficult to recognize in our interactions with people, are we being kind or unkind? And I love that

because it's just so simple and relating to people with kindness, and kindness doesn't mean hallmark sentimentality. So I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about relating with basic goodwill and basic kindness in the way we speak, in our communications, in our actions. That seems, it just seems very pragmatic to me and very recognizable. And so if we could make that a value in our lives, you know, it would cover a wide range of our actions with very positive results. So it's just, you know, a simple example of how we can manifest this understanding of karma in a very immediate and practical way.

You have said before, I believe this is a phrase I've heard you use, there is no hierarchy of compassionate action, meaning we don't have to run into a burning building in order to prove our capacity for kindness. It can be holding the door open for somebody. Exactly. Exactly. As people are running out of the burning building. Yeah.

No, it's just an everyday quality. It's not a special quality that we have to be in special circumstances for. And that's what I like about the word and the quality of the heart that it refers to. Because it's always available if we've either cultivated or remembered to cultivate it. Am I being kind? We could see it a lot in our speech. That's a huge arena for noticing is our speech kind or unkind. And often it veers into the unkind, you know, in a variety of either big or small ways.

So it's a tremendous field of practice. It is. And as you're talking, I'm having this, you know, I'm doing a life review and I'm sure a lot of people listening are, and I recognize that as seriously as I take these concepts, you know, I have a temper. And if I haven't slept well or things aren't going my way or my back hurts or whatever, I'm creating some bad karma in those moments. Well, it depends what you do.

Yeah, I mean, if you're venting, then it's probably not the best karma in the world. So just a suggestion, which I'm drawing on the depth of my wisdom as an 11 year old. And this is a story you probably know, but as a kid, I had major temper tantrums. If I felt my energetic space was being invaded in some way, of course, that's not the language I would use at that time. But in looking back, I realized that's what prompted, I would just have this huge outbursts. And it made me miserable, it made everyone else miserable. And then when I was about 11, I had just had one of these outbursts. And I think this was my first meditative moment,

even though of course I didn't call it that. I said, that time I was Joey, not Joseph. I said to myself, Joey, just count to 10. You're about to explode, just count to 10. And it was amazing, even that rather naive way or childish way, but it really worked. It was amazing. And that gave me the space, the pause between the intention to have an outburst and the action and they really stopped.

So I think you still have hope then, just count to 10. But it does get to, I mean, you weren't meditating at age 11, but it does get to the karmic consequences of having a practice. Yes, exactly, exactly. And the power of awareness and the power of mindfulness to navigate, you know, all the vagaries of our minds and our hearts. Brief digression here, speaking of karmic entanglements.

You referenced your childhood and just brought to mind, I don't think we've ever talked about this publicly, but the fact that Joseph grew up on a bungalow colony, I sometimes mistakenly call it a hotel, but it was a bungalow colony where people would come and stay. So his family owned this bungalow colony called Cutler's Cottages.

And it was in the Catskills, and mostly Jewish clientele, and the type of places like, you know, comedians named Shecky would come through performing on Saturday nights, which explains his sense of humor. And we figured out that my dad, who's almost exactly the same age as Joseph, used to go to Cutler's Cottages, and I have pictures of him at Cutler's Cottages with his family. So there's some sort of karma at work right there, or maybe it's randomness. Connection runs deep then.

Yes, it does. So maybe that's a good bridge to, okay, we've been talking about the very easy to grasp aspects of karma. And yet that is, as you said before, the Buddha said that it is not easy to grasp as a concept writ large. So what else is there to know? Well, one thing is that karmic results from our actions, they can manifest over lifetimes.

So in terms of how karma is manifesting in our lives and the results, that word, karma is a Sanskrit word, in Pali it's kama, K-A-M-M-A, obviously related. So karma, the word means action, but generally when we talk So karma, the word means action. But generally when we talk of karma, very often we're referring not only to the action but to the result of the action. There's a different word in Pali for the result of the action. But for this conversation, we'll just use the word karma because that's how most people

understand both the action and the result. So it's the understanding that we can do an action in one lifetime and the result may not come into being until next life or 10 lifetimes from now or a hundred lifetimes from now. And that's where the Buddha said it takes a Buddha mind to understand the chain of cause and effect and that would carry over from lifetime to lifetime in which that kind of cause and effect relationship can happen. So that's quite complex and I think that's what's begins to be difficult for people either

to understand or even to believe. But there are many stories in the Buddhist texts describing just that process. So that's one aspect. Another aspect is the understanding that different kinds of actions bring about different kinds of results. And this also gets very, I would say, tricky,

or it needs a careful consideration. Because very often, if something bad happens and we say, oh, that's just their karma. It can be very dismissive. And it's almost like blaming the victim of a bad situation. And as I said before, karma is not the only thing that determines our current situation. So it's just one of many. Practically speaking, I think the most inspiring way or use of our understanding of this very

core principle in the teachings, when you read the texts, karma comes up all the time. It's really a key element of what the Buddha taught. And this is just a little sidebar, before I forget. Just to indicate how central it is and how important it is, there are accounts in the discourses of the night of the Buddha's enlightenment. Right? So he had been practicing, I think, with six years, seven years, you know, of these really strong ascetic disciplines. He wasn't getting any place with them. And he really became emaciated in that struggle, starving himself and a lot of austerities.

Realized that was not leading any place, regained his strength and then came to Bodh Gaya, the seat of his enlightenment, sat under the Bodhi tree. And then his description of what he understood the night of his enlightenment. And it's really interesting. So it's said that in the first watch of the night, and I think a watch, in those terms is like four hours, the first watch of the night, he reviewed all his past lives and he saw how the progression of lives unfolded according to the law of karma. And

then the second watch of the night, and again this is through the power of the Buddha mind, he could see the past lives of other beings and seeing how their lives unfolded according to the law of karma. And it was only in the third watch of the night that he discovered what we now take to be the essence of his awakening, that is, the understanding of the Four Noble Truths and the law of the Four Noble Truths and the Law of Dependent Origination. And it's only recently that it struck me that the first two watches of the night had to do with the topics of our discussion today.

The Law of Karma and rebirth and planes of existence. So all of this is embedded right in the process of his awakening, of his enlightenment, to become a Buddha. Okay, one other little footnote here. Although it was part of his process in becoming a Buddha, a fully awakened one, as we discuss these issues, and particularly with the understanding of rebirth and planes of existence, it is not necessary to believe in them in order to get enlightened. So people shouldn't feel, well, you know, this may be just some Eastern stuff, you know, it doesn't really fit in very well with our Western scientific paradigm, and so have a lot of skepticism or disbelief.

So it's important to remember that belief in these are not necessary to become enlightened. So it doesn't have to be any obstacle on the path. However, I think there is a wholesome attitude to have for people who are skeptical or who are disbelief. And it was expressed in a phrase, I think it was by the poet Coleridge, when he said, he used the phrase, the willing suspension of disbelief, because we can be attached to disbelief as well as attached to beliefs. So if it's something that we can honestly say, we don't know. This is outside the realm of my experience.

I don't know if it's true or not. That seems like a very appropriate response as opposed to it's not true. So I think that's very important for people who hear the teachings and who may have questions or skepticism or wondering just to have an open mind to stay open just to have an open mind, to stay open until we do know one way or another. That feels to me a really wholesome way, especially for people in the West, to hold these teachings. Some people, like myself, I never had a problem in resonating with them. My teacher, Munindraji, he used to love to talk about the other realms and staves and you know, I loved hearing about it. I really resonated, but many people don't, you know, and so that's why I think it's good to have an understanding of how one can hold it in an open way without necessarily subscribing to a belief in it.

Much more of my conversation with Joseph Goldstein after this. I'm Peter Frankenpern. And I'm Afroapurne. And I'm Afro-Hirsch. And we're here to tell you about our new season of Legacy, covering the iconic, troubled musical genius that was Nina Simone. Full disclosure, this is a big one for me. Nina Simone, one of my favourite artists of all time, somebody who's had a huge impact on me, who I think objectively stands apart

for the level of her talent, the audacity of her message. If I was a first year at university, the first time I sat down and really listened to her and engaged with her message, it totally floored me. And the truth and pain and messiness of her struggle that's all captured in unforgettable music that has stood the test of time.

Think that's fair, Peter? I mean, the way in which her music comes across is so powerful, no matter what song it is. So join us on Legacy for Nina Simone. Hello, I'm Emily and I'm one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. And they don't get much bigger than the man who made badminton sexy. Okay, maybe that's a stretch, but if I say pop star and shuttle cocks, you know who I'm talking about. No? Short shorts? Free cocktails? Careless whispers? Okay, last one. It's not Andrew Ridgely. Yep, that's right. It's

stone-cold icon George Michael. From teen pop sensation to one of the biggest solo artists on the planet, join us for our new series, George Michael's Fight for Freedom. From the outside, it looks like he has it all. But behind the trademark dark sunglasses is a man in turmoil. George is trapped in a lie of his own making, with a secret he feels would ruin him if the truth ever came out. Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to your podcasts,

or listen early and ad-free on Wandery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wandery app. Add free on Wandery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wandery app. Don't forget to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the 10% Happier Book. We are offering subscriptions to the 10% Happier app at a 40% discount until the end of the month. Get this deal before it ends by going to 10% dot com slash 40. That's 10%, one word all spelled out,.com slash four zero for 40% off your subscription. I'm just reflecting on, you know, early in our friendship, we had a lot of conversations

where I was pretty, I think, toxically skeptical. I don't know that I would have said this stuff is definitively untrue, but I was really not open to it. And you gave me the willing suspension of disbelief rap and it really has taken hold. And I'm just wondering, like, is this an arc you see a lot of people go through where they become more open, where they're willing to embrace the suspension of disbelief the more they practice? And is that because there's something about mindfulness and meditation that can help you stop clinging so hard

to your biases? Or is it, you know, like, I've just been hanging around with you so much that I've fallen for an affinity scam? You've given up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, I think it's, I'll just share my own, you know, an abbreviated version of my own journey in this process because obviously, you know, I grew up in the West immersed in our very scientific paradigm

of what's true and what's not true. I wasn't even aware of these teachings, you know, until I went to Asia and got involved. And so I certainly didn't start with any belief at all in any of this. And there were a few things which were part of the process of just being more willing to consider, you know, to open up to the potential validity of these teachings. So the first one was after some years of practice and having done some amount of study of the Buddhist discourses, there was so much in the teachings that I could verify for myself through my practice. So much of what he said just turned out to be absolutely spot on and accurate that I could see in myself.

So then I started to think, well, if he was right about all this, maybe it's worth considering that he might be right about some of the things outside my range of experience. So that was the first, oh, okay, let me just consider it. Then I met some teachers, and one of them, you know, I think we've spoken probably a lot about. Her name was Deepa Ma, this extraordinary woman, student of my first teacher Muninjaji, who had an amazing capacity for insight, for concentration, for awakening.

And she was trained through the development of very strong powers of concentration. And there are techniques, there's a recognized methodology for doing this through her meditation meditation practice to experience other realms of existence and rebirth. And she was just an incredibly inspiring teacher, very humble. I mean, because these capacities, you know, these special, one might call them psychic powers or potentials of a highly developed mind. These particular aspects, again, are not necessary for awakening. They're there and they can be developed, but in the context of enlightenment, they're not that important.

What one felt from her was just an incredible field of love and of peace and of mindfulness. So that's what came across. But my teacher Munindraji, who trained her, loved to tell stories about everything she could do because he trained her in it. So that's how we came to know it was not to her announcing it. Munindraji would tell us the various things. And meeting her and being so inspired by her and having no reason to doubt what Munindraji was saying,

because he trained her to do these things. So that was another piece of, well, this is somebody I know who acknowledges having this capacity and this is what she has seen. So that was just another piece. Oh, well, it's not just in the text. It's something that can be experienced by people in these days. And I've since meant others.

There are many other great teachers who have this capacity to see. So that again just, it opened my mind, okay, just consider this, this may be true even though it's way outside the scope of Western understanding. And then the third piece, and this is the last, the third of three. As my own meditation practice deepened and I became more aware of the nature of consciousness, aware of the nature of awareness itself, and realizing that consciousness is an immaterial phenomena. It's not a physical phenomena even though physical aspects of our being may be the cause for it to arise in this form, you know, of our human bodies. But the consciousness itself is not material, it's immaterial. And the more I experienced that,

then it was not such a big leap to imagine that in one way or another, the process of consciousness can continue beyond the death of the body because it's not physical. And I say all of this, the willingness to consider those parts of the teachings that are outside of my experience because so much of the other was true, meeting people like Deepamah, this understanding of the nature of consciousness, I think it's important to

acknowledge that none of this is proof. So I'm not putting this out, oh, this is proof that it's true. I realize that it's not. However, it does describe the process by which I came to be more open by which I came to be more open to the possibility and even inclined to believe it, even though it's still beyond the range of my personal experience. So I hope that's somewhat of a frame for how our understanding can actually expand over time. Yeah, it's a great frame.

Can I ask some follow ups? Sure. On the third part of it where you said you experienced consciousness as immaterial, in what way? How did you have that experience? What are you pointing to there? Well, I remember this is early on in my relatively early. I had been in India a couple of years doing a lot of practice and I remember quite this is early on in my, relatively early, I had been in India a couple of years,

you know, doing a lot of practice. And I remember quite distinctly, I was just doing some walking meditation and this question really arose in a very strong way. Well, where is consciousness? That became the question in my mind. Where is it? And I realized it can't be found. It can't be located in space because it's not material. If it were a material phenomenon, we could say, oh, it's

here. But I couldn't find it anyplace. And that's when I started to get an inkling or it's like a doorway into even exploring what the notion or the experience of immaterial is. We use that phrase, well, what is the experience of something immaterial? Right? And thoughts are another good example, even though thoughts can be traced to, as I understand it, electrical impulses in the brain. But those electrical impulses are not thoughts.

They're electrical impulses. And somehow there's this mystery of how those electrical impulses become thoughts that is, to my knowledge, is still not understood. You know, it's the great mystery of consciousness. And so it's all pointing to this immaterial dimension. And it is kind of a wondrous mystery and is one of the things that makes meditation so fascinating because there's a first person way of exploring it for ourselves. Not reading about it in the text, but we're all conscious and aware and have thoughts.

So our own mind-body becomes the laboratory for our own investigation. And that to me is what makes this whole process so completely fascinating. I agree. And just to put a fine point on it, the third of the three points you were making about how you came to be more open and inclined to even believe in the more sort of esoteric aspects of Buddhism, the third point was the more sort of esoteric aspects of Buddhism. The third point was the more you experienced consciousness as, what's the phrase that sometimes gets used, non-local, immaterial, unfindable, the more that gave you the suspicion that

well then why wouldn't it continue after one dies? Right. So there's a bit of a esoteric point here, but it's important to make because it's really central to the teachings as they're understood in the Theravada tradition. Now different Buddhist traditions will have a different take on this. But in the early texts, which are based on the Pali discourses, in saying what you just said, it's important to emphasize that consciousness itself, immaterial as it is, is also an impermanent phenomena arising and passing away in each moment. phenomena arising and passing away in each moment. So it's not as if there's this entity which we call consciousness which is permanent and goes on from life to life. Just like everything else in our experience, it also is conditioned and is arising and

passing away in each moment. And the way it's described in terms of going from lifetime to lifetime, it can be understood in the same way it's arising and passing away within this lifetime. So it's like each moment of consciousness arising conditions in different ways the next moment of consciousness arising.

And so then it's described in the moment of death, the quality of the mind in that moment, the quality of consciousness in that moment will determine the quality of the rebirth consciousness. So it's still a process of change, but one that can extend over lifetimes. I'm going to try to reflect that back to you. So you're saying that we shouldn't think of consciousness as a thing, as anything that we should concretize.

It is just as in meditation, you might notice after a while that you're just aware of this chain this concatenation of Objects the feeling of your breath a sound in the environment a thought etc etc Co-arising with each of these objects things that we're aware of is the consciousness itself So there isn't some solid observer in the background Yes, even though we feel that way. It is actually object and the knowing of said object that are arising in conjunction over time. And what goes from life to life,

assuming that this is happening at all, isn't some solid consciousness, but that stream, that momentum of consciousness. Yes. And again, it is to say that this is the description which is described in the earliest of the Buddhist teachings. As later schools evolved and teachings could say expanded or morphed in different ways, so different of the later schools might describe it somewhat differently.

But this is the basic description from the earliest of the Buddhist teachings. And we can certainly see the process which is so admirably reflected. We can see how it's working right in this lifetime. Because that same process of consciousness and its object arising and passing in each moment, this is in fact one of the insights in the path of insight meditation. So in meditation, each of us can have that experience and it's quite transformative.

Okay, the other follow-up I wanted to ask you, a while ago you listed three developments in your life that led to your being more open to the Buddhist cosmology. And the second one you listed was your friendship with Deepa Ma, legendary teacher. There's actually a great book about her called Deepa Ma, if anybody wants to go look it up. I'll put a link in the show notes.

I never met her, but she was a student of your teacher Munindra, who I also never met, and she had allegedly these psychic powers that are, there's a lot written about these powers or iddies in the Buddhist texts. So you know, there's some basis for this. And this is where this is the trickiest part for me, because I've heard these Deepamata stories a million times, hanging around you and the other teachers all these years. And I keep thinking, well, I mean, it could be a collective,

by which I mean collective between her and her teacher, delusion, misunderstanding. You know, anybody who's meditated for a while may have had experiences that are approach the experiences you could have on a psychedelic plant medicine or LSD. So why wouldn't this just be a thing that happened in their mind that they're in some ways concretizing as a power? Well, there are two levels to that and

I don't know if I'll parse it exactly right. But one thing that came to mind is, in one way, everything is happening in our minds. So there's no escaping all of our experience, whether unique to ourselves or collective agreement about them, it's all happening in the mind. So I just wanted to say that in response to it may have just been happening in their minds.

It was just happening in their minds, because everything is. Okay, so leave that aside. I mean, what's to me somewhat affirming of the possibility is that a couple of things actually. There is a very well mapped methodology for experiencing those things. Not easy because it depends on a very high degree of concentration. But the map of understanding how these capacities are developed, it's all laid out. So anybody who really wanted to test it for themselves could just follow the map. And depending on their capacity and their perseverance, they could experience this for themselves and then they know.

So having said that, there are people and even now people in the West, I know, and even some people who have been students of mine in the past, who have quite extraordinary powers of concentration and have worked with teachers who direct them in the unfolding of developing these capacities. So we might say ordinary people in the West, although ordinary again with great powers of concentration, these cities, these quite extraordinary powers are available and can be experienced by anyone who just follows the methodology.

So I think that's just a kind of response to, well, I think what was implied in your comment, a collective delusion, right? Yeah, it can be tested, you know, and it has been for the last 2,600 years. And because in modern times, most of the people who have devoted their lifetimes to practice because in modern times, most of the people who have devoted their lifetimes to practice until recently have really been in Asia.

So, you know, in monasteries and spend devoting their lives to these practices, and there are many teachers in all of the traditions, not only Buddhist or Hindu, because these powers are not particularly Buddhist. It's just a capacity of mind. Many, many, many great teachers have demonstrated in different ways these powers. So again, all this is to say that we could understand them as being an esoteric aspect of the laws of nature. It's not magical, and when it's understood, not even mysterious, even though to us it feels so mysterious, because there's a very clear map in terms of developing.

Again, I want to emphasize as fascinating it is, and I love kind of engaging in the conversation. I just want to emphasize for the purpose of our own awakening, they're not important. They're fascinating, but they don't have anything to do with awakening or enlightenment or purification. Because some people who have developed these powers without wisdom, they can also be misused. And there are stories in the Buddhist texts of people like that. So it's not to confuse what's of interest and fascination with what's essential. And so I think it's just important to keep reiterating that. Yes, it is so interesting and the Buddha himself, to the extent that I remember this correctly

and as we've established that's iffy, but the Buddha, I believe he talked about mundane powers and super mundane powers and super mundane powers. And the mundane powers were the psychic powers we've been talking about, the ability to see other realms of existence, to read people's minds, to be able to move through walls, all of these psychic powers that Deepa Ma apparently had or allegedly had. And then there's super mundane powers, which has to do with waking up, enlightenment, understanding, you know, molecularly the truth. So I imagine him in a marketplace of religious ideas 2600 years ago saying, okay, yeah, yeah,

all these other religions are promising you the psychic powers and sure, we got those too, but those are mundane compared to the super mundane powers that I'm really offering. Right. And I don't know if he used the phrase super mundane to describe what I'm about to say, but it's in that vein. I think he might have been talking about miracles. Oh, okay.

And he said that the real miracle or the the most important miracle, is in teaching the Dharma. To convey the teachings in a way that people can purify their own hearts and minds and become awakened. That that transmission is the real miracle. Yes. And this other stuff is just, could be fun. Yeah, I mean, that information could leap out of your skull into somebody else's skull that could have them affect

a profound transformation in terms of how they understand reality and how they act within it. You don't have to believe in anything supernatural or even esoteric aspects of nature to see how incredible that is. Yeah, it is miraculous. And we're all the beneficiaries of it. We've all heard the teachings from different people.

So we're all aware of that process. There's one point I want to interject. It's a little out of sequence of what we've been talking about, but it refers back to our earlier discussion about karma. Somebody made this comment. I can't remember who it was now, but I thought it was very useful that a lot of the misunderstandings of karma happen when we're looking back and attributing things in the past that we may not even be specifically aware of to being the cause of our present

situation. So for example, you know, if we're suffering in some way and then just to say, oh, well, it's just your karma, you must have done something really bad. First it's not necessarily accurate, and I don't think it's very helpful. For me, and I think this would be true for most people, that the understanding of the law of karma and how it unfolds becomes really a positive force in our lives is when we use that understanding in looking ahead rather than looking back. Of understanding, yes, our actions now are going to have results. We don't know exactly what the results are going to be. We don't know when they're going to arise.

But if we have a basic understanding that our actions, they're like seeds. You plant a seed and it has the potential to become a great tree. That itself is a mystery. How in the world does a redwood come out of some small seed that is rather miraculous and hard at least for laymen to understand? So if we just have that understanding that yes, our actions are volitional actions, they're like seeds, we're planting seeds. And so if we're looking to the future, what seeds are we planting? Let's plant seeds that in a general way we understand these are going to bring about good results.

We may not understand exactly what or how or when, but the general principle will be there and will guide our actions. And for me, this has been just tremendously empowering because it really gives us a sense of agency in how our lives unfold. So I just like that frame of, yeah, using this teaching of karma primarily as a guide or a map for looking ahead. That's where I think it makes us most empowered and least liable to misinterpretation. You've said, you know, you can think about life as a work of art and karma is kind of, this is me taking liberty with your analogy, but karma is a little bit like the paintbrush here.

I've run afoul. No, no, no. What I'm saying is... Well, I'm not quite sure whether it's the paint brush or the paint or the person wielding the paint brush. So it's in there someplace. It's all a process. Yeah. Yeah. But it's an empowering way because I think what you keep trying to remind us that karma can be misunderstood

and misused but actually properly understood it's an empowering way to look at your life. Yes, and very much so. In the ways I talked about earlier in the discussion about how we can kind of see in a general way how the impact of our actions brings results back to us. So whether we're kind or generous or mean or angry or whatever, all of these things have impact so we can see it. And if we pay attention to that, why not create a path of happiness and well-being? I feel it is really empowering and it has been in my own life and practice and the choices I've made.

Much more of my conversation with Joseph Goldstein after this. This podcast is brought to you in part by Audible. Every year offers us the opportunity to get closer to the best versions of ourselves. No matter where you are on your well-being journey, Audible is there for you. They have an ever-growing selection of stories to inspire, sounds to soothe, and voices that have the potential to change your life. Sometimes we need a little encouragement

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titles like bestsellers, new releases, and exclusive originals. Listen now on Audible. Hello, I am Alice Levine and I am one of the hosts of Wondry's podcast British Scandal. On our latest series, The Race to Ruin, we tell the story of a British man who took part in the first ever round the world sailing race. Good on him, I hear you say, but there is a problem, as there always is in this show. The man in question hadn't actually sailed before. Oh, and his boat wasn't seaworthy. Oh, and also tiny little detail

almost didn't mention it. He bet his family home on making it to the finish line. What ensued was one of the most complex cheating plots in British sporting history. To find out the full story follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free on Wondry Plus on Apple podcasts or the Wondry app. Let me invoke our mutual friend Sam Harris, who plays a very important karmic role for me and I wrote about him in 10% Happier. He, if people are unfamiliar with him, at the time I met him in the mid aughts, was a becoming a very prominent atheist writer.

And I, at that time, I considered myself an atheist, although I think now I just call myself an agnostic. And I found Sam to be incredibly smart and very likable. And over time, as I got to know him a little bit better, he revealed that he was very interested in meditation. And I was starting to get interested in meditation. And the fact that Sam was into it really gave me license to go deeper.

And another karmic factor here is that he introduced me to you, Joseph. He got me into my first meditation retreat. And Sam is, he's an old, old friend of yours. I think I can safely say on both of our behalves that he is just one of our favorite people and awesome. And he has a great meditation app called Waking Up, which I'll put a link to in the show notes.

But I'm bringing him up now because he wrote a book, which I'll also link to in the show notes called Free Will, in which he argues that we don't have free will. And so I'm curious how that argument, which I've never understood, not through any fault of Sam's, but just because I'm a little obtuse, I've never understood how we don't have free will and how does that jive with this notion that understanding karma properly should be empowering, whereas the lack of free will always computed to me as disempowering.

Okay. So I think what's worth considering is the question, which I'm gonna give the answer to. What does free will mean? And the answer that I've come up with is that it doesn't mean anything. It's a phrase that has been used, but when I try to examine,

well, what could it possibly mean? It means, at least in the way that I can imagine understanding it, that there is a will, which that I can acknowledge, but that it's free would mean that it's not influenced by anything. Because if it's influenced by something, why would you call it free? And so I think the term just doesn't mean anything. And yet, because we use it, we set up this dichotomy between free will and either determinism

or something like that. But I think it's a false dichotomy, because I can't imagine what the term could actually mean. So having said that, and here's where I'm getting into territory that I have an inkling about, but it would be an interesting discussion with, you know, maybe some really smart philosophers, you know, who play with these concepts, but I just have an intuitive sense that there's a difference between things being determined and things being conditioned.

So the Buddha talked about how everything arises out of conditions, but I have some sense that that doesn't mean that everything is predetermined. As I say, this distinction between conditioned and determined, I don't feel like I've plumbed that distinction to its depths. So I'm just putting this out as a possible way of understanding how things can be conditioned and yet they're still agency in all lives. Okay, so that having been said, I did come across one description of free will that made some sense to me and may actually be an inkling of understanding the difference between conditioned and determined,

but I'm not sure. But it was by the philosopher Spinoza. And even though he was my main man at college, I was studying philosophy, I really got into his teaching. Not an easy read. But basically, and I have to ask forgiveness of any Spinoza scholars out there because I'm reaching back 50, 60 years, but in my recollection of how I understood it was that his understanding of God was basically laws of nature. So it was a natural interpretation of the universe and how everything was a process

of cause and effect, of things arising out of different causes. Now this is what he said. He said the causes for something to rise, I don't know whether he used the word infinite or not, but are so vast and so complex to really trace back all the causes behind something arising, that the impossibility of understanding all of that is what we call free will.

So I really like that. It's like, okay, we're using this term just to describe that feeling. We cannot understand all of the causes and conditions. So we're just giving it this name, you know, as if there is something called free will, a will that is unconditioned, a will that is not conditioned by anything, you know, and that's the piece that doesn't make sense to me. All of that is interesting, very interesting, and I'm still confused about, because we haven't even talked about the Buddhist notion of not-self or selflessness, that just like everything else, this self is conditioned and you can't find some core nugget of it. So if all of that is true and

If there is no free will meaning unconditioned will Who is accumulating the karma points? So first I think a lot of confusion arises from prefacing those questions with a who rather than a what. Because even just in the using who, it is already embedding the notion of a self, of a someone there, the who, who is reborn, you know, who experiences comic results. And there's no who in the first place,

but there is a what, meaning one could describe the process of how things unfold. So, just take some simple example. One of it, and this goes back to kind of one little aspect of description of the law of karma. So the Buddha said, for example, that generosity, that the practice of generosity, will at some point or another, either immediately or maybe next life or 10 lifetimes, who knows,

but the fruit of generosity is abundance. So he's just making karmic link between certain kinds of actions and a result. So there's no who there. It's just this action brings about this result. It's not to say that we shouldn't use the words who and I and self. Because we do, you know, in just in our conventional way of communication, these words are just very simple shorthands for the process.

And it's totally fine to use those words in that context. It just gets confusing if we take those words to be referring to something that's actually there. So that's where we have to be careful. It's not in not using that terminology. There's a phrase which the Buddha used to describe the law of dependent origination, which is fundamental to the teaching, and it's just all the links which describe how things unfold. And I hope I don't mangle this too much. It's a very simple phrase, but I may not have it exactly right. But basically it's because of X, Y arises. In the absence of X, there's the absence of Y. So it's something like that.

So it's basically just saying that everything arises out of conditions. When the conditions are there for something to arise, it will arise. If the conditions are not there for it to arise, it will arise. If the conditions are not there for it to arise, it won't arise. So it's just a natural process. And I think Spinoza was pointing that too. It's all natural processes, you know? And it's not that they're happening to someone.

We're just using the word self to describe an individual process going on of cause and effect. What's coming to mind as I'm hearing you speak, and hopefully what I'm going to say will be clarifying for people, is something that's talked about a lot in Buddhism, is holding in mind this very interesting paradox, which is that two things are true simultaneously on one level that you might call conventional or relative reality. The world is solid. I'm talking to you, Joseph.

I'm here as me. You are there as you. Another level. It's all just an unfolding process of causes and conditions and there isn't something solid you can latch onto. And so yes, you can think about karma as in a conventional way, I, Dan, I'm going to try to do my best to cultivate positive mind states because some future version of Dan and also the whole world may benefit as a result. So you can talk about it in terms that we all understand, but it's

important to infuse that with the ultimate level of reality, which is that there isn't anything solid here. Just the way if we were to take a very powerful microscope to my hand or this desk or anything like that, we would see not a solid desk, but spinning subatomic particles. Right. So just a couple of comments. I think that that's just right. A couple of comments. One is that even on that more ultimate level, things are unfolding lawfully.

So it's not, yeah, it's following its own laws unfolding. And secondly, I think we can, each of us can get a real sense of these two different levels in our meditation practice because at a certain point, and this is not like a super advanced state, but it does happen when people have practiced for a while and they've developed, you know, a modicum of concentration and stillness. So they're over the initial struggles, you know, just trying to gather the mind and not be lost in thought all the time. But at a certain point we do begin to experience the body as an energy field, you know, where we're no to experience the body as an energy field, you know, where we're no longer experiencing the body

as something solid. So it's as if we've dropped into that more, we might say more ultimate realm of changing phenomena, rapidly changing phenomena. And right there in our own experience, we can notice the difference between the conventional sense we have of the body and this meditative experience of the body which is on a very different level. So that kind of understanding that you described of the two levels, that's quite accessible you know to anybody who

really is diving into the practice in some way. And then we have a real sense of what you just referred to. So bringing it back to free will, and I understand this can be an academic concern, but a lot of people are interested, courtesy of Sam, in free will, so it's worth chasing this down a little bit. Would it be safe to say that, yeah, on some level there is no free will because nothing exists outside of conditions? Setting aside Nirvana, that's a whole different discussion, but in the reality that is accessible to the vast majority of us, everything is conditioned. So, of course, there's no free will. And yet we do have some degree of agency that allows us to create karma. Yes.

So I think an important point here is to emphasize that even though in the way we've been talking, free will really doesn't mean much. That's not to say that there isn't the function of a will in this whole mind-body process. So there is volition in the mind. There is will. We do make decisions. We do make choices. So that choice-making is part of the mental process.

And it is to understand that the choices we make are conditioned by a lot of different things. And here's where the teachings are just so powerful, because the Buddha pointed out that choices conditioned by wisdom tend to bring much better results than choices conditioned by anger, or greed or by hatred or by delusion. So he's pointing out, yes, choice is there. So in that sense, agency is there. And then he's saying, okay, what conditions are choices? And he just pointed out which conditions tend to happiness and which conditions tend to suffering.

Yeah, and then one could have an infinite regression, you know, of, okay, what conditions, whether we choose the anger or the wisdom. So we could keep going back, but I think that for practical purposes, in terms of exerting some agency in our lives, I think we can rest in the basic understanding of what qualities are conditioning our choice in the moment. And with understanding, we choose the ones that are based in wholesome factors, understanding that those are the ones that are based in wholesome factors, understanding

that those are the ones that are going to lead to not only happiness for ourselves, but happiness for others. I'm sensitive to your time, but I do want to point out there may be one last area to at least say a few words about. We've talked about rebirth, we've talked about karma, we've talked about the psychic powers. We've not actually said that much about other realms of existence. Can you describe what you mean by that? Yeah. So there's a whole range of potential locations of rebirth,

right? And so the human realm is one of them that we're familiar with. The animal realm is considered a realm of existence so that we're very familiar with that. So right there we can see two different realms of existence.

There are lower realms in which suffering predominates and there are lower realms in which suffering predominates, and there are higher realms where pleasure and happiness predominate. So Muninjaji used to love to talk about the higher realms. In the Pali, they're called the deva realms, beings with bodies of light and everything pleasant. And there are gradations.

I think there are six or seven of these realms of basically sense pleasures increasingly refined. Then there are realms above that. They're called the Brahma realms, which are conditioned by minds with high powers of concentration. So those people who have cultivated what are called jhanas in Buddhism or states of deep absorption, it's said that beings who have cultivated that and are still have that connection at the time of death are are reborn in these Brahma realms, which are said to be far superior in terms of happiness and fulfillment than the heavens,

the sense pleasures realms. And we can get a taste of this even in this lifetime without the experience of other realms, but we can get a taste of it just in the course of our meditation practice, because we all know what the experience of sense pleasures are. You know, enjoy a good meal or beautiful sights or sounds, or really enticing bodily sensations. So we all know what sense pleasures are like, but in the course of practice, when the concentration develops to some extent,

and again, it doesn't have to be a super amount, it's not something extraordinary, but just some level of concentration, we experience that as being much more fulfilling, much more enjoyable than even the pleasures of the senses. So this is something we can taste for ourselves. And just as an example of that, and Deepamah is somebody who could accomplish

what I'm about to say, people who have highly developed concentration can go into states of absorption for days. They can sit in that state of absorption. According to the text for up to seven days, Deepa Ma said that she sat in one of these states of absorption for three days. Not moving, completely absorbed in that. Now could you imagine eating nonstop for three days? Or listening to music nonstop for three days? Or having sex for three days?

As pleasurable as those things are, they're limited in their capacity to bring about happiness. It's a momentary or maybe many moments of pleasure, but none of them have the capacity for the kind of happiness or joy or fulfillment that deep concentration has. So that's something that we can see for ourselves. We don't have to even believe in other realms, but it also is reflected in the cosmology. You know, there's the animal realm, the human realm, the sense pleasure realms, and then the Brahma realms. And then there are a couple of the lower realms as well. It's more fun talking about the Deva realms. Again, it's important

to reiterate that even the highest of these realms is not the goal because they also are impermanent. It's said that beings in those realms live for incredibly long periods of time, eons of time, but eventually they all come back again. So none of them gives the peace of awakening, of enlightenment. So it's just important that we hold all this, everything we're describing is describing the mundane scope of existence in all of these realms. But the path is not about necessarily, oh, I want to go there and that's the end. We really want to understand awakening as being liberation from clinging to any of that,

which is a whole different space, which in the Buddhist terminology is referred to as Nibbāna or Nibbāna. Of course, we did have a whole discussion about that. We did, and actually this is a pretty good place to end it. If you want to complement this listen with something, Joseph and I, as he mentioned, had a whole conversation about Nibbana or Nirvana, and I will drop a link to that in the show notes so you can go back and listen to it.

It will be a perfect compliment to this conversation. Before I let you go, Joseph, anything going on in your world or at IMS, the Insight Meditation Society, that we should let people know about? Well, you know, the retreats are all going on and there's a lot of demand for them. Let me just expand on that a little bit.

The Insight Meditation Society, which Joseph co-founded in the early 70s with Sharon Salzberg and Jack Kornfield. Am I right that it was the early 70s or was it mid 70s? It actually opened in 76. Okay, so mid 70s, my apologies. But anyway, it is absolutely fantastic. It started as a retreat center

and that retreat center is still operating. Two other facilities have come up. One is called the Forest Refuge. That's for more experienced meditators where you can go, it's a little bit less structured. And then there's a sister organization that's co-located there. It's called the Barry, B-A-R-R-E. That's the name of the town, Barry, Massachusetts. Barry Center for Buddhist Studies. So one of Joseph et al's contentions, and I happen to agree with this

just through my experience, is that the practice of meditation really can be complemented and augmented in a deep way by learning about Buddhism. And that's part of the goal of this podcast. In fact, this specific episode in my work in general, to help people pair the sort of the intellectual aspects of the practice with the experiential aspects of meditation. But I just want to say that if you've got some charitable funds that you are looking to direct and you know this is only if it's something you can comfortably do, go to dharma.org, d-h-a-r-m-a.org, learn more about IMS, consider donating. I personally and my family have dedicated some

of our philanthropic resources toward IMS. I have spent, since I wrote 10% Happier, I've gone up there at least once a year, sometimes twice a year for retreats with Joseph and others and I have gotten an enormous amount out of the place, so I commend it to you all. So that's my plug. Thanks, Dan. And it's always great taking a deep dive into the teachings, because as I said, I'm at a stage of life where I think it is important just to talk about the whole range of what the Buddha taught and to see to what extent we can relate to

some of these aspects which may be a little less familiar. I wholeheartedly agree. And do just want to loop back to the point out that you came into this interview not feeling physically at your best and you've been a soldier, a warrior, so thank you. You're welcome. Thanks again to Joseph Goldstein, always amazing to have him on this show. As a reminder, this episode is part of our series we're doing this month, celebrating the 10th anniversary of my first book, 10% Happier.

We will put links to the other episodes in this series in the show notes. 10% Happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justine Davy, Lauren Smith, and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor. Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production. And Kimmy Regler is our executive producer. Alicia Mackey leads our marketing.

And Tony Magyar is our director of podcasts. And finally, Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Indie Rock Band Islands wrote our theme. Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com survey. AirPods Pro with adaptive audio automatically keeps out the sounds you don't want to hear so you can listen to your music and lowers your music to let in the sounds you do need to hear. Hi there. Hi, what can I get you? I'll have a strawberry mango coconut probiotic smoothie with wheatgrass. Anything else? Extra wheatgrass.

Here you go. AirPods Pro with adaptive audio. Available on AirPods Pro 2nd generation when enabled. Hey, grownups. The Cat in the Hat cast is a new podcast from Wondry perfect for the whole family. Join the Cat in the Hat and your favorite Dr. Seuss characters as they get whisked away on a new adventure every week. Fish dreams of creating his very own polite and quiet podcast.

That is, until he gets a surprise visit to his fishbowl podcast studio from the Cat in the Hat himself and it becomes very clear that the cat has other plans for the podcast. And those plans are the opposite of quiet. Sing along to new favorite songs, try your luck at Titanic tongue twisters, have some fun with wondrous wordplay, and most importantly, bring your family along for all of the adventures in the Cat in the Hat cast. Follow the Cat in the Hat cast on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the Cat in the Hat cast early and ad-free on Wondry+. podcast.