Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Nirvana | Joseph Goldstein

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

Nirvana is a culturally confusing and freighted term. It’s the name of the best rock band of the 1990s and also the name of smoothie joints, vape stores and yoga studios. There’s a vape place near me called Nirvana. Nirvana’s been fully co-opted and sometimes corrupted by the culture… and yet it is also the clearly stated goal of the Buddha’s teaching. So what does it really mean?We cover all of that today in what is an experimental episode for us. Not only because the topic is so unusual, but also because this is our first podcast recording of a live show. We recorded this at the Armory in Boston in front of a sold out crowd who did not know in advance that premier teacher Joseph Goldstein would be the guest. We would love your feedback, because if you like this, we’ll do more.Joseph Goldstein is one of the top western proponents of mindfulness. He co-founded the legendary Insight Meditation Society alongside Sharon Salzberg and Jack Kornfield. He also wrote a book called Mindfulness: A Practical Guide to Awakening.PS We’ve been trying to do a bunch of experiments here on this show, and our latest is a weekly newsletter, which you can sign up for here!Related Episodes:The Mental States That Steal Your Calm | Bhikkhu BodhiThe Words of the Buddha | Bhikkhu BodhiJoseph Goldstein On: How Not To Try Too Hard in Meditation, Why You Shouldn't "Waste Your Suffering," and the Value Of Seeing How Ridiculous You AreFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How are we doing? Nirvana is a culturally confusing and frated term. It's the name of the best rock band of the 1990s in my opinion. It's the name of smoothie joints and yoga studios. There's a vape place near me called Nirvana. There's a car buying and selling website called Carvana. So it's been fully co-opted and sometimes corrupted by the culture. And yet Nirvana is also the clearly stated goal of the Buddha's teaching. So what does it mean actually? Making matters even more complex. There's a kind of omerta or code of

silence about Nirvana in some corners of the Buddhist world where teachers might reference Nirvana sometimes, but often won't talk about whether they've experienced it personally. So we're going to dive into the deep end today going for a little bit of Exotica and Sotarica with my main man, Joseph Goldstein, an incredible meditation teacher who is, in fact, willing to talk about his experience with Nirvana. And he also does an incredibly good job of explaining the concept and making it practical. Should we all be striving for Nirvana? How not to try too hard?

Is it attainable for a normal person? What does all of this have to do with our everyday lives anyway? And what practices can we do right now that might give us a tiny glimpse? We cover all of that in what is an experimental episode for us, not only because the topic is unusual, but also because this is our first podcast recording of a live show at the Armory in Boston in front of a sold-out crowd who did not know in advance that Joseph would be the guest they kind of freaked out. We would love your feedback on this because of it works, and you like it, we will do more

of this. A little bit more about Joseph before we dive in. He is a co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Barry, Massachusetts, an amazing place where I go on retreat once or twice a year. He's the author of several books, including Mindfulness, One Dharma, and the Experience of Insight. I recommend all of them. And he has been on this show too many times to count. Joseph Goldstein coming up after we

pay some bills. All right, time for BSP, blatant self-promotion. If you happen to be listening to this podcast while you're doing something else, I think you might love our seven-day on-the-go meditation challenge launching November 13th over on the 10% happier app You'll get daily videos and guided meditations from me and the great teacher Alexis Santos with mindfulness practices for Everything from brushing your teeth to waiting in line. You can join the challenge right now for free download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps on November 14th. I'm doing something that will be available both in person and online. It's an interview with the great meditation teacher Leslie Booker. It's a benefit for the New York Insight Meditation Center. You can find a link for that in the show notes as well.

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But it also changes. Reputations are reexamined by new generations who may not like what they find. Picasso is undeniably a genius, but also a less than perfect human. From Wondering and Gohanger podcasts, I'm Afwah Hersch. I'm Peter Frankertpern. And this is Legacy. A brand new show exploring the lives of some of the biggest characters in history.

To find out what their past tells us about our present. Venus Amon was constantly told to sit down and shut up, you're the angry black woman. The name of Napoleon still rings out in the pattern of the guides who thrive on the tourist trade. Search and follow Legacy to listen to the full trailer. I think the only reason we can sell tickets for an event like this is people want to see if I'm going to have another panic attack, which I can arrange for you. Did I do coke tonight?

No, I did not. You holding? I have no idea what I'm gonna fucking say. This is total experiment. We've never done this before. Thank you very much, genuinely, for coming out tonight. I really, really appreciate that. I'm not just saying and I really mean it.

It's so gratifying to see that we can run an experiment like this and people actually come. And I know that I promised you a special guest and a very special guest. I guess people are sitting on the side of the room might have already been able to figure out who it is because you can see that stage. But I do want to welcome to the stage. A guy some of you may have heard of his heard of Joseph Goldstein, Joseph has been teaching meditation. We're doing meditation for 50 summer years? 130.

130. You can date it back to the Mesozoic era. Anything else I should say before we dive in? No, I think that's... We were discussing over dinner the fact that my favorite words are, you're right, or good job. So, I'm going to take that as that. Joseph Goldstein, welcome to the show.

Thanks Dan. All right, let's talk about Nirvana. You actually don't use the word Nirvana. You say NiBana, why is that? So as you mentioned, there are two ancient Indian languages, Pali and Sanskrit. And Pali is kind of a vernacular language. And Sanskrit was the more literary language. A lot of the Buddhist terminology

was really spoken of in Sanskrit, and those are the words we're most familiar with, like Dharma and karma and Yervana. The poly is very similar, but slightly different. And the reason I like the term the Bana, rather than Yervana, means the same thing. As we've said, all of you know in the the Irvana has kind of been co-opted in the popular culture all the way from rock bands

to restaurants. I don't think my favorite is bananas smoothies. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. And it's interesting, maybe, because it does point, I mean, even in that usage of it, it does have the glimmer of a suggestion that it points to something the best of, you know, when we use that term. But by using

the term nibana, the poly word for it, I think it's easier to really focus on its spiritual aspect. And as you said, the goal of the Buddhist teachings so kind of strips away the more popular cultural connotations. That's why I like to use the poly term. I want to talk a lot about what it is. Uh-oh. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But.

But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. Let me ask, why is it that it's not talked about that much? I go on lots of meditation retreats, and it's quite rare to hear a teacher talking about

Nirvana or Nibana, and I sometimes joke, it's like there's a kind of omerta around it. So what's that all about? Well, it's talked about a lot in Asia. I was practicing a lot in India and Burma. So it's referenced a lot. When we came back to the States and McGon teaching, this was around 1974, there was very little context for it.

Mindfulness and meditation was really quite exotic. And people asked me what I did. Oh, I teach meditation, that silence. It just wasn't part of our culture. So in the Asian Buddhist cultures, there's a whole context that people grow up with in understanding it as the goal of practice. Here, because there was so little

understanding or experience or connection to any aspect of the Buddhist teaching, it was all quite exotic. It felt like it was important to really start talking about the practice in ways that people could relate to in their own experience now. Over the years, of course, people have come to a depth of practice and as we all know, mindfulness has become a big industry. It's really in the

culture now. But it may be that we've just carried over that habit. But I know for myself in teaching and some other teachers, we are beginning to talk about it more because it feels like people can now really relate to it in one way or another. And we can talk about that this evening from their experience and so it feels like now maybe it's the right time. So this evening is kind of an experiment and afterwards you can let us know this work. Maybe we go back to banana smoothies. It's part of the issue that if you start tossing around these big concepts that type A, meditators will get wrapped around the

axel trying to achieve it. Yes. And I think that that is definitely a potential hazard in talking about it. And it came up a lot even when we first came back to this country and it's to start teaching, this was in 74. So in those years, we weren't using the term the Ivana, but a lot of people just the thought or the idea of enlightenment was in the air.

And so people would come and enlighten a bust. And there was not much interest or even teachings about some of the basics like ethical behavior. I want to get enlightened and morality, even the term morality, the connotation can be moralistic or something that misses the point of it. But people were shying away. They weren't so interested in that. They were interested in enlightenment. So my first teacher, I'm an injury,

he had a very good assessment of the situation. He said, people who want to get enlightened without the foundation of ethics, without the foundation of non-harming in behavior, is like somebody in a boat wanting to cross the river and not untying the boat from the dock. And then no matter how much effort you make, you're not going any place.

And so he was really emphasizing how important the foundation of ethics and morality and non-harming is to the realization of enlightenment or awakening. So there was a whole learning of how to present the whole path towards it in a way that built upon each step building upon the next. So there is that danger of people getting so excited by the possibility of really an idea and then not letting me foundation. Right. I can't count how many times I've come to you in the middle of meditation retreats and complained about my lack of progress or bragged about illusory progress or whatever

it is. And I think that in and of itself. And have it every sponged? You might have sprained your eyes for rolling them. Well, I remember one time coming to you and saying, you know, I'm working so hard. Why is nothing happening? And you said, let me reframe this whole thing for you. This is a long road. And every time I go on retreat, I tell myself, I'm not going to fall into that trap and

it never works. And so I think that is one of the potential risks of talking to, frankly, about Dibon or Nirvana or wherever you want to call it, because even if I'm willing to be moral, which is debatable, it's the striving that is in and of itself. A hindrance, I sometimes say that meditations is crazy video game where if you want to move forward, you can't move forward. You have to put your mind into a neutral position in order to achieve progress. And that is so hard for a modern striving-oriented person to grok.

I think there's a distinction of two different mind states that when we understand it can really help us hold enlightenment or awakening or Nirvana, Nirvana as a goal without getting caught by striving. And the distinction, which I found helpful, as a goal without getting caught by striving. And the distinction, which I found helpful, is understanding the difference between aspiration and expectation. So an aspiration, and even just as you hear those words,

just get a sense of the different feeling you might have in reflecting on what they mean. Because an aspiration sets a direction. We can have something that we value and that we're aiming for. So it sets the direction for our path, for our work. Expectation has to do with wanting something to happen now and then being frustrated when it's not going the way we want. Because as you know in anybody, all of you have done any kind of practice at all, or really

practice in anything. It could be music, it could be sports, it could be scholastic stuff, growth in any discipline never goes like that. It's always up and down and up and down, but the slope of the curve is going up. So if our aspiration is clear, it's setting us in the right direction. And then if we can let go of expectation, and one way of doing them, we were just talking about this

in the green room before coming out. One of the things, my first teacher, my injury said, which has helped me so much in my practice in just this regard, is that on the spiritual path, time is not a factor. But we tend to measure things in how long they're going to take, or how am I doing this week, or this month, you know, we drive ourselves crazy with that kind of expectation. So in real life, you know, times not a factor. We have the aspiration, we know what direction we're going in, which actually gives a lot of meaning to our lives. When there is a sense of a path going someplace,

but then settling back into the moment and letting it unfold. One more thing. I've learned... Sometimes... ...to be patient. It's, you know, that wheel of doom when you're on a computer and it's buffering, I can see that happen in his face. Just let it play out.

Something good will come. The file has downloaded. I need to hear it downloads a little slower. I need to hear it downloads a little slower. I need to hear it downloads a little slower. He's a kid. He's a kid. So there's a book that came out. It was very popular.

Maybe it was in the 60s or 70s, called Mount Analog. I don't know any of you familiar with it. It's by a French author, René Dommal. And basically it's a story. He uses the metaphor of a mountain as a metaphor for the spiritual journey, the spiritual path, climbing the mountain. And he says, there's one section, and I wish I could quote it exactly,

but this is a paraphrase. He said, when you're climbing a mountain, you have to be looking at your step right in front of you, or you're going to trip over rocks or obstacles. So you have to pay attention towards right in front of you, because the last step depends on the first. But then he said, but you also want to have a vision of the top or an understanding of the destination because that's what inspires you to take the next step.

We have a sense, oh yeah, this is going someplace. This is going to a place that I value. So in that respect, he said both the last step depends on the first, but the first step depends on the last. And I think it's really a beautiful way of expressing that we need both. We need to be really grounded where we are, but also to have that sense of that vision, that aspiration of where it's leading, of where it's going, because that sort inspires us to keep taking the next steps. Okay, so let's talk about where it's going allegedly. Uh-oh. Nirvana, I made some notes here. Nirvana has been described variously as the unborn, the unmade, the unconditioned,

the unformed, the uncreated, the unafflicted, also the highest piece, the deathless, an island, a shelter, a harbor, a refuge. What does that, what does any of that mean? Okay. So I'd just like to use first a very ordinary image that may give you just a flavor of what it's about to begin with. So probably you've all had the experience sometimes of sitting in your kitchen or dining room, and you're not noticing anything,

any particular sounds going on, but then at a certain point, the hum of the refrigerator stops. Have you had that experience? And then all of a... You know, it's like there's a kind of dropping into a peacefulness that we didn't even know as being disturbed by the hum, because the hum was just so much a part of the ambience of our home. But then when it stops, you know, energetic you can feel the stillness.

So Nibbana really refers to two things. One of them is if you think of this whole mind body process, you know, all the sensations we feel in the body and all of the mental stuff that goes on the thoughts and emotions as the refrigerator hum. And we're just living, in fact, we're on the say, we are that hum. This is our life, is the hum. The experience of Nibana, one meaning of it, and I'll talk about the other one. One meaning of it is through the meditative process, and sometimes it could be very spontaneous, but more often it's the result of a long dedicated practice, at a certain point in the practice, it's like the hum of the mind-body process stops. And there's an experience of, we could call it the ultimate silence,

or the highest peace. But it's a very similar or analogous. It's analogous to the noise of the hum stopping. And then there's that enjoyment of the silence, the piece of it. And the contrast is so obvious at that point. And so in meditation, we're feeling, we are more and more in a very refined way, in almost a microscopic way, the energetics of our mind body system. And it's just, it's ongoing, ongoing, ongoing, from birth to death and the Buddhist understanding even beyond. So when that stops, it's like there's that release, relief piece.

And one of the phrases one finds in the Buddhist teachings is a really simple statement, which is not a very American value, which is not a very American value, but it says the highest happiness is peace. I wonder if we just went out on the streets and asked people, you know, what would make you most happy? I wonder how often peace would emerge as the leading cause of it. But through our practice, we really begin to appreciate the depth of meaning of that statement.

So that's one meaning of Nibhana, just the stillness when the hum of this whole mind, body, energy system, even for a few moments, there's a cessation of that into this reality of nibana which is peace. So that's one meaning. There's another meaning which I think is actually somewhat more accessible to us, perhaps both conceptually but also experientially. So another definition of Nibana, which the Buddha said very explicitly, it's right in the text, where he says, Nibana is the cessation of greed and hatred and delusion. So he's talking then about the quality of our mind and our heart as the result of experiencing that highest piece. It purifies the mind. It uproots from the mind those tendencies of greed and hatred and delusion.

And you know, it's really interesting when we look out and especially in these times it seems to me, but maybe it's been forever, you know, of all incredible challenges that are present now in the world on so many different levels. But so many of them, when we look underneath to the causes behind the problems, they're mostly rooted, ingrid, and hatred and fear and ignorance. And so I think we could get a sense of the beauty of a mind that is actually weakened. These defilements and at a certain point abrooted them. So that's another meaning of Nibana, the mind-free, the mind-heart,

free of those forces which close so much suffering in the world and for us out. So are you saying that in the experience of Nibana or Nibana greed, hatred and del delusion is not present in that moment. And what about subsequently? Do they all come rushing back once you're done? Right. So again, different Buddhist traditions

will lay out the map somewhat differently. But there's an overall agreement. Some of the details of the map may differ, but in the tradition that I'm most experienced in, it said that enlightenment or awakening goes in stages. And there are four stages, and the first of them is called entering the stream to awakening. So it's like a very deep transformation. And once one has ended the stream, it said that

full awakening is inevitable. We're carried by the current. At each of these four stages, different of the defilements are either uprooted so they don't come again, or in one of the stages some are attenuated. So even though they may come again, they come again in a much weaker form. But the goal is actually to uproot these forces in the mind, they're just, I say, just, but they're deeply conditioned, habit patterns of mind, you know, of craving and wanting and desire and aversion and fear and restlessness and so all of these things

that we're so familiar with they're deeply conditioned, which is why it takes practice. It really takes a training of our minds, but I first got into... I'm going to... I'll press a little. You're going to answer questions I didn't ask, because that's what's going to happen. If I'd dress a little. You're going to answer questions I didn't ask, because that's what's going to happen. I know you came to see him because you didn't even know I was coming. I think in legal circles they call that a bait and switch. So, there are a lot of repeat. So I first got into meditation when I was in the Peace Corps in Thailand.

I finished college, studied philosophy, went to Thailand, and there were discussion groups for Westerners. Some Buddhist monks were leading these discussion groups for those Westerners who were interested. Having studied philosophy at school, I went to these groups and asked so many questions. The poor monks. And people actually stopped coming. Because they said, I'm not just a person, I just wouldn't shut up. So finally one of the monks said, I think you should try meditating. I was young, I was just 21 years old. It was all super exotic to me.

Here I was in the far east, Buddhist. I was just like, whoa, meditation, great. You know, I didn't know anything about it. So he gave me just the most basic instructions. I get my powerfinally together. Set my alarm clock for five minutes. So I didn't want to sit too long. But this is the point to the whole story. Something quite amazing happened in that first five minutes.

And it was not LeBonna, as it was not enlightenment or awakening. But what happened in that first five minutes was that I saw there was a way to look into the mind as well as looking out through it. So it was just like a turning in place. And that there was a methodology for doing it. And I just found that revelatory, you know, that as many young people are at that age, There was a lot of angst about my life and what I was going to do and all kinds of turmoil. So to find a way that one could actually look inside into the heart, into the mind systematically was just so.

So amazing to me. It was so amazing. And I started inviting my friends over to watch me meditate. I was so excited by it. And I'm still doing it. So thank you for coming. And now sit for an hour and a half. Forgot we were supposed to meditate at the start of the day.

I get so excited. I overlooked that. Too much cocaine. So the fact that it's a way that there's a path, and the path actually leads somewhere, and that we can discover things about ourselves all along the way. I just think it's remarkable. Yeah. But you did pretty early in your meditative career have an experience of Nibana. Can you tell us about it? It was really quite unusual and I don't know all the circumstances that led to it.

You know, maybe something from past lives came into play. But anyway, right toward the end of my Peace Corps stay, this was after two years, I was sitting in the garden of a friend of mine, who was also interested in meditation and Buddhism, and he was reading to me from a very powerful Tibetan text. It turns out it was a very poor translation of the text, which I didn't find out till later, but it didn't really matter in that instance.

And the Tibetan text in that edition, it was called the Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation. So he's reading the text, and a lot of the text would give various teachings, and then one of the refrains was, and look within at your own mind. And look within at your own mind. And then it would use a lot of the terms

you listed describing Nibhana, the unborn, the uncreated, the unformed, the unconstructed. So it would be repeating those words and then look within it your own mind. And for whatever reason my mind just became really still and concentrated and alerted, it kind of just found a perfect balance

in the listening to this. And just at a certain point, as my friend was reading, and he read the word unborn, something happened. It wasn't really going to do that. I was going to suggest, I was going to suggest it might be an interesting, way, just to reflect on what that word means. What is the reality of something unborn? So anyway, I heard that word. My mind was in this really quiet, balanced place, unborn, and it was like the stopping of the hum, and the metaphor really that came to my mind just afterwards was, it was like the experience of zero. Something non-manifest, but its own reality. And years later, back in the States and teaching for quite a while, I came across a book.

The title of the book was, the nothing that is. And it turns out it was a book about the history of the number zero. Now, zero is a very powerful number. And the opening lines of the book just completely resonated with me. It said, you look at zero and you see nothing. Look through it and you see the world. And so zero, both as a concept and the reality of it in the world and It's a tremendously powerful number, and yet it's nothing. And so it was the experience of zero. And the result of that experience was the realization or the understanding that the center

of our being is zero is not a self. And of course, this understanding of selflessness or non-self is just a fundamental aspect of the Buddhist teachings about awakening. So it really uprooted that belief that there's a self-center because if it's the experience of zero center, so that self center, the view of it or the belief in it was really gone. I then fell into a trap which is very common and unfortunately we can see playing out a lot in spiritual scenes. So for a couple of days I was just in a completely altered state, but the thought of my, oh,

well, I'm done. You know, okay, great. But then I was in Bangkok, that's where I was teaching. And just, soon after I was walking down, I don't know, one of the back streets in Bangkok, I was dark, and I began to feel a little fear and anxiety about being on that dark street and fear, anxiety. I guess I'm not done. So that was a great lesson in understanding that yes, we can have these really powerful transformative moments. And yet they're still, in a way, it's the beginning, not the end.

This is so much more to do. And yet, you know, when we read of all these situations where sometimes even quite accomplished teachers get into trouble, because I think it's very possible for people to have a genuine realization. But it'd be misinterpreted as being, okay, now I'm done. And so whatever I do is an expression of the enlightened mind and not realizing, no, the realization may have been genuine but misinterpreted in terms of completion. So I think it's really helpful to have a context for understanding all this. This is a bit of a digression, but I love watching these true crime stories about cult leaders

and all the bad things they do. But one of the wrinkles, I think that's one of the nuances that I think is very often, if not always overlooked, is that some of these people, some of these guys and they're mostly guys, actually do have a lot to teach. And they have wisdom to share, but the trap they've fallen into is thinking that they're done and that they're not capable

of bad behavior anymore. Yes. Coming up, Joseph Goldstein talks about his first time experiencing Nirvana or Nirvana and what is actually meant by the notion of the self being an illusion. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Suryte. And we are the hosts of A Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast.

Every week on Red Handed, we yet stuck into the most talked about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nephiles Royal Massacre and the Nithory Child Sacrifices. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behaviour. Find, download and binge binge-red-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts. Psst, hey you, yeah you. I'm gonna let you in on a little secret.

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Download the GIFI app or sign up at jifiondemand.com and don't forget to use the code first for $25 off your first job. Quick reminder, don't miss the on- Go challenge, a seven day meditation challenge. Designed to help you bring mindfulness into your daily life, it kicks off on November 13th. But you can join now, download the 10% happier app today, wherever you get your apps and get started for free. How long did that experience of zero or Nirvana last for you?

Was it a, was it? Is that the actual moment? Yes, it was just a moment. It was like a lightning bolt, but the effect, as I was mentioning earlier, kind of the uprooting of certain defilements, which we just termed. And in this case, kind of the view of self. So that remained, but the actual experience of zero.

At that point, that was just a moment. Well, we were in the green room before this. We were having dinner, and you were eyeing my sandwich, greedily. And don't look at me like it didn't happen. We were having dinner and you were eyeing my sandwich greedily and Don't look at me like it didn't happen because they did So it's not all uprooted No

So just to give a sense of the arc of awakening, so that first stage, the two big ones that are uprooted is the view of self or the belief in self, for just the reasons that I've described. And the second thing that's uprooted is doubt about that, because you've just experienced. It's like if you put your hand in fire,

you no longer have any doubt that the fire is an a burn. Because you just know from experience. So the doubt about the path, about these teachings, that was uprooted. Like what remains is desire, aversion, restlessness. Now this is interesting. One of the last defilements, one of the last to be uprooted, is that the final stage of awakening is the English translation of the poly is conceded.

The poly word is MANA, M-A-N-A, But conceit has a very specific meaning in the Buddhist psychology. It's really any sense of I am. And it could be in comparison, I'm better than you, I'm worse than you, I'm the same as you. It could be over time. I was this in the past, I am this now, I will be in the future. So all of that is included in conceit.

So you might think, well, if the sense of self has been uprooted at the first stage, why is conceit not uprooted until the very last stage. And that's because that pattern, and it's incredibly, deeply conditioned. I mean, we all have the sense of, I am in one way or another. This is almost hard-wired in us. But after the first experience of selflessness, as the pattern of conceit keeps on arising, and it does, as I say until one is fully enlightened, one understands the pattern of concecede as being selfless.

It's still a pattern, the pattern is there and it's going to come up a lot, but we're not hooked into it in quite the same way because we realize, oh yeah, this is just a deeply conditioned habit of mind. So our relationship to it is very different. But it's still there and it's still plays itself out. I'll just share one conceit story. I want your sandwich. Okay, more practice, Serena. You imagine how fun meditation retreats are. So out of our center and buried this IMS, the retreat center in the down the road is the Barry Center for Buddhist Studies. So there's now a resident monk at what we call the study center, same as a Nalyo, German monk, very disciplined, just a super-yobi, his hardcore.

And we were both doing a self-reaching, so he was down in his little cottage at the study center. I was doing a selfie treat in my house just up the road. But I knew he was sitting. So I was on a long selfie treat, I think, I know two or three months. And it's certain when one afternoon, I was just fridding away some time. I don't even remember what I was doing,

but I was just wasting some time. And then I had the thought, oh, I'll bet Analia was not wasting time. You know, which I'm sure he wasn't. And so I started to get down on myself. You know, what kind of yoga you're, you know. But thanks to the many years of my practice, I was able to see it in a relatively short time.

I mean, it lasted long enough for me to feel the effect of self-judgment and getting little down, but I don't know, within 15 minutes or 20 minutes. I reckon, oh, that's just minor. That's just conceit. And as soon as I recognized it as being this impersonal, selfless habit, I no longer took the conceit personally

and the whole thing is out. So even though the pattern is so strong and it is gonna come up a lot, when we see it with wisdom, we have very different relationship to it. And there's just so much more ease in our lives because we don't get so caught in these self-judgments and self-assessment. For people who are new to all of this, you've talked a lot about the self being an illusion or the idea of not self or selflessness.

What does that actually mean? Does that mean we don't exist? We don't have to put our pants on. What does it mean? And sorry, let me add something on there. What's the relationship between that and unborn? Because as far as I know, we were born. It's always tricky when he asks two questions.

Because the second one pushes out the first. So let's start. What was the first one? What is selflessness mean? Okay. So I'll just use an image which may convey some of it. So self is a concept. It's a designation for a process.

It's not something that exists in and of itself other than as a convenient designation. So for example, you know if you go and sit by the side of a river, river is a word, it's a concept, it's a designation for the flow of water. But river is not a thing independent of the flow of water. It's just a word that we're using to describe it. Self is a word that we're using to describe the flow of our mind-body process. There's nothing in this process which really lists more than a moment. And one of the things we learn in meditation, one of the things that happens, is a refinement of our perception of change. So I know we've spoken about this, there's a little phrase I use in meditation describing

in a way the unfolding. I talk of NPMs, which are noticings per minute. And when we're starting, our noticings per minute are pretty low. But as we refine the mindfulness and the concentration gets stronger, the NPMs go way, way up. So just as an example, when people start meditating in a common object of meditation is feeling the breath.

Okay, so we're aware of the in-breath and the out-breath. Okay, so I notice the in, notice the out, so that's two noticing, however many breaths we take in a minute. But as the mind from this gets stronger, we see that the in-breath is not one thing. The in-breath is a flow of more microscopic sensations that we can be aware of. So the breath is, so there's so much happening within a breath or within a step or within the sensations of our body. It's in a state of constant flow, constant change.

It would be awkward to have to communicate with others. Oh, this flow of the mind-body process is going to the movies. It's much easier to say, I is going to the movies. It's much easier to say, I'm going to the movies. So we use I, me, and self, and all the conventional language. It's not that we should stop using it, but it's to realize that they are concepts of designations pointing to something, and in meditation we discover what it is that they're pointing to rather than reifying the concept as being something in and of itself. Got it? Is there going to be a quiz? You've heard this before. Let me see if I can take what you just said and build a bridge to the unborn.

This might not work well. We walk around with this idea of a solid sense of self. It's me separate from the universe peering out fretfully from behind my eye sockets if I have sight. But actually if you heightened or hone your inner microscope, you can see that this solid movie really is 24 frames per second, probably many more frames per second of sensation in the knee, crazy thought. Thing you're seeing, random sound you just heard, you can really break through this movie and see that it's actually an illusion. On one level, it's real, the movie's real, but on another level, it's actually just thing after thing after thing flowing.

And these are conditions. These are causes and conditions. And they're constantly swarming into the next thing. You might think some thought you just had is totally original, but it's the accumulation of all of the thoughts that preceded it. It's your childhood. It's your ancestors.

It's the culture. All of these causes and conditions constantly, we're always on the crest of a wave of causes and conditions. And that gets the unborn. Zero is the unconditioned. It's out of this cycle. All right, that's all I have to say. Is that roughly correct?

You did good. A round of applause for Dave. We're done here actually. Drive safely. Yes and so to build on that very clear summary. So if you remember just at the beginning of the evening, That very clear summary. So if you remember just at the beginning of the evening talked about another meaning of Nibana, when Nibana, beside the unborn, it was the mind free of greed and hatred and delusion. There's a spectrum.

It can be momentary where we have moments of that. And there is actually a phrase within the Buddhist tradition of momentary Mibana. Right? So it's not that experience of zero, but it is the experience of the mind for those moments, not conditioned by wanting or a version, you know, or a delusion, ignorance. And it's interesting, in ancient India, they used the term nibbana colloquially to refer to cooked rice that had cooled down.

So they referred to the cooled down rice as having the vomit. And I really love that because in a way, it's pointing, yes, when our mind cools down because these forces in our minds that create so much suffering and stress for ourselves, you know, of grasping and wanting and clinging and not liking and aversion and just all the stuff of our lives, it's a kind of burden, it's suffering in one way or another.

And so when that cools down and we have moments where the mind has cooled down and it's free from that So we could call that a momentary nibana I Mentioned that the first stage of awakening is called stream entry. There's a stage before that which is called Little stream-entera So it's not quite the full-blown thing, but there is a stage in practice again when, and this is more toward the beginning, this is not some super far off attainment or realization. But it's a stage that generally comes when we're doing periods of intensive practice, where the

mind, the NPMs are so high that we're seeing the extremely rapid arising and passing away from them and it just becomes crystal clear. And at that stage of practice, the mind does feel crystalline. It's just, it's super clear and alert and aware in the experience of that rapid rising and passing. And it's called pseudo-Nirvana in the text, because often people will take it to be. It's so extraordinary. It's, I don't know, one image that comes to mind when I think of what it feels like, when one's mind opens to that level of perception, refined perception.

Can you imagine what it must have been like for the first person who looked through a microscope? It must have been extraordinary. To go from the conventional view of the world, looking through a microscope and seeing a completely different reality. It's like another world appears. I must have been an extraordinary moment,

and in science there are probably many of those kinds of moments. But meditation, that's what it does for us. It's like we're focusing the microscope of our minds into this mind-body process, and at first it's just the conventional on my knee hurt, so whatever. You know, it's the more conventional understanding, but at this stage, all of that disappears, and it's just this rapid, rapid, arising and passing of phenomena. That's what's called little stream-enter, because it's already moved us away from the reification of the self, you know, as being somehow solid being here. And we're really seeing, we're seeing what it is in actuality that we're

calling self. And so we begin to see that the word self is a designation for this process. Coming up Joseph talks about whether Nibbana is available for regular people and whether you can have a successful meditation practice if you don't care about Nibbana at available for regular people and whether you can have a successful meditation practice if you don't care about Nibana at all. And he talks about some practices we can all do on a daily or semi-daily basis that might give us a glimpse of temporary Nibana. Go Sunreal. At least is a journalist, that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happen in my childhood bedroom, but ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago, when I discovered that every subsequent argument

of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too, including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. And it gets even stranger. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunted my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother. It was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. From Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios comes Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story on the Wondry app wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes at free right now by joining Wondry Plus. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Brighton and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on, so do sit back and enjoy. Brighton and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I don't know if what I'm going to say now just qualifies as little stream entry or pseudo-nervon or whatever, but I've had maybe two experiences on long retreat where just all gets really fast and thrilling. And I made a big deal out of it in a book I wrote and Joseph was teaching the retreat I was on where I had this experience and then bragged about it in a book and a couple of years later he was teaching retreat at the same center on the West Coast and he sent me an email, he said,

I'm at the site of your great enlightenment. I'm surprised they haven't put up a plan. It's just constantly trying to kill my ego. Yeah. This is what a good teacher does. But it's okay. We all do it. Yeah.

So these experiences, they sound incredible. The experience of zero, the fact that you can, and then the further you go, that in the Teravod and school, in which you've done a lot of practice, there's this idea that you have the first experience of Nibbana, and that's called Stream Entry, and then the second is called Once Returner, and the third is called Non-Returner, and then the fourth is what's called an Arhant, somebody who's fully enlightened. It sounds like something out of Dungeons and Dragons, but this is the map. And it's very attractive to anybody who has any sense of what it's like to suffer as a

human being. And I don't mean big suffering, innards pecked out by crows. I mean, like just the daily wanting, not wanting judging, et cetera, et cetera of life. But are these experiences, even stream entry, is something like that available to regular people who are not going to dedicate their whole lives to practice the way you have? Yes, I certainly, the experiences I've just described, you know, whether it's the momentary nibana of just the mind cooled, like the rice cooled, that we all had that experience.

We may not have paid attention to it, and that would be an interesting thing, just an exercise to do. Just as you're going through the day, to see if you can notice the difference of when your mind is caught up in some whatever. We get caught up in a lot of different things of plans, and work stuff, family stuff. And just to, if you can remember, to just watch the oscillations between times

when the mind is caught up and agitated in one way or another, and then there will be times when the mind is cool. You know, there was one Thai teacher's name was, ah, monk, Ajahn Buddha Dasa. He talked a lot about this momentary nibhana. He said, if it weren't for that, we couldn't survive. If the mind were always in a state of excitation or agitation, it would be unbearable. But all of us have these times, these moments, where the mind is peaceful. It is cooled out. So this is just in a very ordinary way.

This does not take any particular meditative skill. But it takes an interest in watching one's mind. And just this little digression. When I first went after the Peace Corps, I came back to the States. And I wanted to continue practice. I tried to do it by myself. I realized I needed a teacher.

So I went back to Asia, and I stopped in India. So I tried to find a teacher. Ended up in Boat Gaya, which is the small town, I stopped in India to try to find the teacher. Ended up in Boatgeier, which is the small town, but it's where the Buddha was enlightened. So it's an important spiritual place. And my first teacher was there. His name was Muninjaji.

And he said something just when I first met him, which completely hooked me. It really set me on this particular path. He said, if you want to understand your mind, sit down and observe it. There was nothing to join, there was no ritual, there was no ceremony, and the common sense of that statement, if you want to understand the mind, you don't have to sit down, you could be standing, or you could be lying down, but basically observe it, because how else could we understand our minds? It seems so obvious that that is the way. And then of course it's learning a method for doing it.

But what I'm suggesting now is really a step that everybody can take if they're interested in understanding themselves in their mind, just going through the day, just keeping eye out. Oh, agitated, upset. Oh, peaceful. So just that would be very revealing of the flavor of nibbana. It's the cooled outness. And then in meditation practice,

just what we discuss, the increasingly NPMs and the little streamenterer, all of that is well within just ordinary people's capacity, who are dedicated to the practice, but who have not become monks and nuns and dedicated their whole life to it. But are practicing, you know, and are committed to the practice. And then even through the stage of stream entry, that is well within the capacity of many people who are dedicated to the practice. To talk about full enlightenment, that might take a little more. But from the beginning,

even from that stage of little stream-enterer, it's like we're on the path. And as we said earlier, time is not a factor. If we're on the path and we keep walking, we'll inevitably fulfill our aspiration. Maybe not in this lifetime. Maybe not in exactly. I mean, when the Buddhist understanding rebirth is a part of the teachings and again this is one thing also we don't talk so much about because, for most people, it's outside the realm

of their direct experience. And it's not necessary to believe it in order to walk the path. But it's definitely part of the teachings. And there are people through their meditation who actually can access it. But to be clear, you can have a successful meditation practice if you don't give a shit about Nibbana. You're just like trying to be less of an asshole to yourself and others, and your life

is better. You're noticing the smell of coffee and you're seeing things more vividly. That's all on offer to anybody who wants to do this practice, Nibbana, or not. Correct. However, sort of just as a kind of incentive. So in the teachings, the Buddha talked about seven different kinds of increasing levels of happiness. And a lot of them start with the kinds with me,

with just the happiness of sense pleasures. The coffee, the croissant, just the ordinary pleasures of our lives is a kind of happiness. It's not an ultimate kind of happiness, but it does give us pleasure, and so we recognize that. And then there's the happiness of concentration. When the mind is deeply concentrated, that is a happiness that is much more fulfilling than a happiness.

The momentary happiness of sense pleasures, and that's why people who are well developed in this, they can sit for hours and feeling completely at ease because the mind, as a function of the concentration in their minds, that's another kind of happiness. There's the happiness of insight. So the bullet out, all these different increasingly sublime levels of happiness.

But this is what a Munijo, he hooked me with this one. He said, if you aim for the highest, if you aim for Nibbana, all the rest will come along the way. So that's a good deal. You know, and so we're aiming for complete liberation or complete awakening, but we don't have to wait until that happens. We can be experiencing increasing levels of happiness in our lives, on more and more refined levels all along the way.

In a way, it's not giving anything up, except those forces in the mind that cause suffering. I don't know exactly how this is related, but maybe it's related a little bit. So just after 9-11, I was teaching a course just outside of New York. And part of the retreats generally, in addition to the Vapassanoid inside practice, mindfulness practice, we also teach loving kindness, which is its own meditation practice. And in that practice, we start sending loving wishes to ourselves, and then benefactors and friends and neutral person, and difficult people, and then all beings.

So may all beings be happy. And we do that as a meditation practice intensively to develop that feeling. While I was teaching this, again it was just like some weeks after 9-11 and we got to that category in classical terms it's called the enemy. We've modified it, the difficult person. But anyway, and there were people, there were a lot of New Yorkers there, and they said, there is no way that I can send

meta to these people who flew into the towers. I was, it was incomprehensible to me, you'd be happy. So that really made me reflect because the Buddha's teaching talks about the majorless quality of loving kindness, that it includes every being, but I could totally understand where those people were coming from. So it made me reflect, well, how does matter apply here in this kind of situation. It took me a little while to investigate in my own mind. And I realized there was a way

but was finding the appropriate language. So for example, may you be happy did not cut it. But may you be free of hatred, may you be free of hatred, may you be free of enmity? Is there anybody that we would exclude from that wish? I don't think so. Because it's exactly those forces in the mind which cause all of that harm, all of that suffering. And so the point is that it's these qualities in the mind of intense greed or hatred or enmity

or fear or whatever it is. It's just another word for suffering, suffering for oneself, suffering for others. So when we see that, the letting go of these qualities is really the letting go of suffering. And we could wish, may everyone be free of hatred. So I think that there really is a way to understand

the universality of these teachings, but we have to find the appropriate language to express it that makes sense in particular situations. What are the practices we can do on a daily or semi-daily basis that might give us a glimpse of temporary nibbana. So there's one teaching in the text, it's one line that when people would hear it, just that one line, there are many stars of people getting enlightened by hearing it. And other people who got enlightened would use this line as an expression of their enlightened. Okay? This is your chance. It's so simple that we don't give it its due. So the one line that comes up a lot in the text, whatever has the nature to arise, whatever has the nature to arise,

will also pass away. So what has the nature to arise? Everything. Absolutely everything that we experience is arising and then passing away. The implications of that are enormous and that could be another whole evening, just unpacking what that one line means. But I was sitting on retreat But I was sitting on retreat and just kind of spontaneously that thought came to mind that line, oh whatever the nature to arise will also pass away. But I was sitting in the flow of the changing phenomena.

So it's as if that line dropped into the midst of that experience of things arising, passing. So whatever has the nature to rise will also pass away, and then my mind did one further thing that was so revealing. Whatever has the nature to rise will also pass away. And so this is in the context of meditation. Therefore, there's nothing to want. Because whatever it is that I might want, is going to also pass away. And in meditation, very often there is a wanting of something.

It's like a leaning into the next moment. We're here, but we're here in order for this, in order for this. So just that tag, therefore there's nothing to want in that moment. I could feel my mind drop back from any wanting. And then to become aware of the experience of the non-wanting mind, to actually have the experience of the mind that is not wanting anything. That is a taste. That is really, it's a taste, it's a glimpse of that freedom. So that's one.

Another, just in recent years, I've just been exploring and playing in a very modest way, just writing some poetry, which I've done really in my 20s, but had not for many, many years. And it's been great. It's been a great creative expression, and really for me very meditative. So I was just doing more meditation on retreat. And this haiku, like poem, came to mind expressive of an experience So this is the short hike. Bird song in the empty sky of my mind. So I was just walking in meditation.

Normally, you know, we hear the song of a bird, and we hear, and the bird is there, and we're hearing the song. So there's that basic separation and duality in the way we are experiencing it. But in that moment, there was not bird there in me here. There's a bird song in the empty space of my mind, and in realizing everything is a bird's home. Everything is arising in the empty space of our mind. And when we just play with that, it collapses that sense of separation.

So that's another glimpse of selflessness. There's no one there. It's just just that. Can I add two more practices that I got from you on this? Sure. That I found helpful. One is, and this is just repeating his, you're getting this from a good source, via me.

When you notice in your mind, in your free range living that you want something, notice that you want something, stay with it, and then notice that desire will pass. The moment after the desire has passed, and this will all happen pretty quickly, that's a temporary new bona. It's gone. It's a relief. This is going to happen to a million times between now and when you go to bed. So it's not an esoteric experience. You can look out for it, and that moment after the desire has arisen and you let it go is pretty delicious. The second, and this related to the bird song in the empty sky of your mind,

which for some of us might sound a little tricky to grok, but another related, I know. I know. I know. This is when the student becomes the master. And another related technique that I'm also stealing from Joseph that I found very helpful that really allowed me to understand this idea of an object arising in the empty sky of one's mind is to notice whatever you're noticing right now might be you're seeing things, hearing

things, feeling your body in the chair, and then to ask yourself, who is knowing this? This is being known by what? And then you can ask yourself a supplemental question, is, who's asking this question? And right there, and again, this is all coming from Joseph, so you can actually trust it. Right there, you're just knocking on the door of the great mystery of consciousness. We know that we know stuff, but we don't know how, or who? And that is really, really interesting.

And it's all temporary, Mibana. So, I'll just... You're supposed to say good job, Dan. Okay. Good job there So just just to add one little piece to that I know I got here tonight Those have been really helpful for me as well just Just a slight little furtherance

Which I found just a way of expressing it. So for example, if you're sitting whether it's in meditation or not, there could be any time, but you're hearing sounds, the formulation that I have found really helpful, which prompts the investigation, is just the question as you're hearing things, to ask the question,

can I find what's knowing the sound? So you don't have a preconception. You're really legitimately asking the question and having interest. You're hearing sounds, so you know you're hearing it, like now. So we're hearing the sound. Can you find what is knowing it?

And there are two teachings here on this theme, which I found really helpful. So on the Tibetan teaching, it says, when you look for the mind, you can't find it, and the not-finding is the finding. Like that's what's to be understood, that it's not-findable, and yet the knowing is happening. So this is really the great mystery of consciousness.

It can't be found and yet it's knowing. So what one phrase that Tibetan teacher used was the cognizing power of emptiness. You know, I kind of love that phrase. So in this, in alignment with this, there's a Zen story, which, very brief, which points to the same thing, but has been of tremendous value for me just in my life. So Bodidharma was the great figure Indian master who brought Buddhism from India to China. And there are a lot of legends about Bodidharma sitting in a cave for nine years and all of that.

So some guy comes to see him who became his first disciple, very upset, very distressed, and a lot of suffering. Cypher very upset, very distressed in a lot of suffering. And it first, Bodhidharma says he doesn't want to bother with him. But the guys insist things and so finally Bodhidharma comes out of his cave. And the guys says, I mean, so much suffering, I mean so much distress. Please pacify my mind. So Bodhi Dhamma says, show me your mind, and I'll pacify it. And the guy says, I've looked forward everywhere and can find it. And Bodhi Dhamma says, they're already pacified. Bodhi Dhamma says, they're already pacified.

First, before I go on, I want to congratulate you all, because I think this is the first time that I have told that story, where people actually took that in and didn't laugh at the kind of widestism of it. Because almost always I tell a story and people will kind of laugh because it's kind of a funny story. So I'm really impressed. I really felt like, oh yeah. So thank you. But because it really is profound, to realize that in the unfindability, when we are recognizing that, it is already pacified that our mind is distressed by all the stuff, the content of the mind, but we are not connected to the nature of the knowing mind itself. So we're getting seduced by the content, the story, the film on the screen, and not seeing the nature of awareness and the unfindability of it.

So now, you know, just caught up in whatever problem is the difficulties or frustrations whatever is going on in my life, and I can be going for a walk and maybe mulling something over and feeling a little stress, one kind or another. And because I know this story so well, I don't need to go through the whole sequence. All I have to do is, oh, already pacified. It just reminds me, looking for the mind is nothing to find, already pacified. And in that moment, the stress is all gone.

It's really like magic because we're extricating ourselves from our entanglement with the story. And for the most part, we're living in the story of all lives, and not in the basic process of the elements of all lives, of the body of the mind, the heart. When I proposed initially that we do an evening on Nirvana, you were pretty reluctant. We're approaching the end of that evening.

Are you okay? And is there anything I should ask that I didn't ask? How are you feeling? I'm feeling great. It's really how they are feeling. So, that was not a call for that, but it's good to... Only one of us is needy. Yeah. But this was kind of an experiment, because, you know,

in the end, first approach when I thought, you know, a public talk, and I didn't know who was going to be coming and talking about Nibbana and Nirvana. You know, people can be even interested in this. But the discussion felt great to me. And so it could be that this maybe was said an example of how we can talk about it more often if it's helpful That or people who is the show are really fucking weird

Joseph thank you, there you are. Welcome. This was great Thank you. You're welcome. This was great. Thanks again to Joseph for participating in this experiment with us and for staying up way past his bedtime. Always great to see Joseph. Thanks as well to Clay Fernald and the rest of the staff and crew of the arts at the Armory venue, Patrick Hanlon and his team at Revival House Records, and to

everybody who showed up in the audience. Thank you. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin David Lawrence-Mith and Tara Anderson. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer, Marissa Schneidermann is our senior editor, special shout out to Marissa who did a ton of work to bring this episode into being. Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post production, shout out to Kevin as well. He was right there on the scene,

making sure our audio and video all worked out well. And Kimi Regler is our executive producer. Alicia Mackie leads our marketing and Tony Mangar is our director of podcasts, our fearless leader, Nick Thorburn of Islands. He wrote our theme. We love that theme and I love everything islands does. And we'll see you right back here on Friday

for something from the vault. We're gonna talk about a more relaxed way to meditate with one of my favorite teachers. Somebody who's been very influential for me, Alexis Santos. If you like 10% happier, I hope you do. You can listen early and add free right now by joining 1-3 Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen to add free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Hey there, I know that life is full of challenges, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. A stoic philosopher once said that no man is more unhappy than he who never faces adversity for he is not permitted to prove himself. I'm Ryan Holliday, the bestselling author and host the Daily Stoic podcast, a podcast where I break down the ancient teachings from the Stoke philosophers so you can apply their thinking to the problems of modern life. On the Daily Stoke, you'll find everything from insightful conversations to people like Matthew McConaughey and Gary Vee on how they've used stoicism in their own life to short 10 minute teachings on how to deal with fear and build better habits. Ancient philosophy doesn't have to be this inaccessible and practical thing on the Daily Stoke.

You can learn how to bring the values of stoicism into your own life one day at a time. Follow the Daily Stoke on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and add free right now on Wondery Plus. Hey everybody, it's Dan on 10% happier. I like to teach listeners how to do life better.

I want to try. Oh hello Mr. Grinch. What would make you happier? Ah, let's see. And out of business sign at the North Pole or a nationwide ban on caroling and noise, noise, noise. What would really make me happy is if I didn't have to host a podcast. That's right, I got a podcast too. Hi, it's me, the Grand Puba of Bahambad,

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