Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Rethinking Success | Mia Birdsong

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

Radical advice on rethinking success, individualism, and the American dream.Mia Birdsong is a pathfinder, culture change visionary, and futurist. She is the founding Executive Director of Next River, a think tank and culture change lab for interconnected freedom. In her book How We Show Up: Reclaiming Family, Friendship, and Community, Mia maps swaths of community life and points us toward the promise of our collective vitality. In this episode we talk about:How to build communityWhat it looks like in her own lifeMutuality vs reciprocity How to work with resentment and rejection The etymological connection between friendship and freedom The transformative power of asking for helpAnd why she thinks the idea of bootstrapping—or going it alone—is a kind of self-hatredRelated Episodes:How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends | Dr. Marisa G. FrancoThe Many Benefits of a “Paradox Mindset” | Dolly Chugh. Ten Percent HappierEscape From Zombieland | Koshin Paley Ellison — Ten Percent Happier An Uncomfortable (But Meaningful) Conversation About Race | Lama Rod OwensSign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/mia-birdsongSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, everybody. How are we doing? Something I've been thinking about and writing about a lot lately is how to define success. A shrink once observed to me that I was, psychologically speaking, the apex of Western man. I believe that's the phrase he used,

and I do not believe he meant this as a compliment. He observed that I had been conditioned in this individualistic culture to view success in terms of money and power. The skills I had honed in this regard were what this psychologist called I skills, meaning they were all about myself, how to work hard, hone my craft and stick up for myself. I was lacking however, U skills like communication,

collaboration and compassion. And I wanna add here, this is not gooey or gauzy stuff, you skills, as the Wharton organizational psychologist Adam Grant has argued, these days in the workplace, character skills are more important than cognitive skills. Anyway, I bring all this up because it was in this spirit that I got interested in the work of Mia Birdsong, who is my guest today. She has some provocative ideas about rethinking success, independence, individualism, and the American dream. For her, the real keys are relationships and community. Again, I'm aware that these words might, to some of you, come off as soft or cliched. That's the way they came off to me for many, many years.

But there's a growing body of research and thought that strongly suggests that these are actually the critical skills for health, happiness, and success. Birdsong is the founding executive director of a think tank called Next River and the author of a book called How We Show Up. In this conversation, we talk about how to build community, what it looks like in our own life, mutuality versus reciprocity, how to work with resentment and rejection, the

etymological connection between friendship and freedom. I found that part particularly fascinating. The transformative power of asking for help and why she thinks the idea of bootstrapping or going it alone is a kind of self-hatred. Mia Birdsong coming up. But first some BSP. As you've heard me say before, the hardest part of personal growth, self-improvement, spiritual development, whatever you want to call it. The hardest part is forgetting.

You listen to a great podcast, you read a great book, you go to a great talk, whatever it is, and the message is electrifying. But then you get sucked back into your daily routines, your habitual patterns, and you forget. So this is the problem for which I have designed my new newsletter, which we just started a few months ago and we're just really hitting our stride. So I'd love it if you sign up. Every week I list one quote that I'm pondering right now,

and then I give you two of the top takeaways from the podcast this week. It's really for both me and for you to get these messages into our molecules. I'm just kind of mainlining the practical aspects of the episodes from the week and listing it out for you. And then I also list three cultural recommendations, books, movies, TV shows that I'm into right now.

You can sign up, it's free. It's at danharris.com. That's my new website, danharris.com. Sign up for the newsletter. Meanwhile, over on the 10% Happier app, they're offering a special deal, 40% off the subscription price until the end of May. Head over to 10%.com slash 40 to get started.

When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals, featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent. Check out Audible Canadian Originals, including The Downloaded, a sci-fi adventure featuring Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca.

Look out, Canadian listeners. This one's for you. Coho is a MasterCard with an easy-to-use app that makes managing your finances easier. Coho lets you earn cash back, borrow, build your credit history, and so much more. Join over 1 million Canadians and sign up for your free trial today. Download Coho on Google or App Store today, or koho.ca for more details. Plus, for any basketball fans out there,

get a $75 e-gift card for nbastore.ca when you sign up with the promo code, koho75. That's code K-O-H-O-75. Mia Birdsong, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. Glad to have you here. I'm just curious, why did you get so interested in this subject of community? What was going on for you?

what was going on for you? So I think it's that I was noticing that the more, and I'm putting successful, I'm putting that in quotes, I was becoming, the less connected I felt and the harder it was to be in community. And I was curious about what that was about, because it's not how I grew up. And I was also doing economic justice work that was really grounded in understanding the ways in which social capital can mitigate people's experience of poverty. And was giving talks and presentations on all of that and

would often have like at the end, you give a talk and then at the end, like some people come up and they want to ask you questions or whatever. And like an unsettling number of times during that period, there would be somebody kind of standing off to the side, clearly waiting for everybody to be done. Most often that person was a white man. And after everybody kind of left, they would come up to me and in an almost confessional way, say, I don't have that kind of community in my life. And they would just kind of say it. And I was like, there was no question. There was just this like admission. And at some point, like the time that I most remember, this young man said

it and he asked me, he was like, what do I do about that? And I gave him some, you know, bullshit advice. I don't even remember what I said. And it stuck with me. And I was kind of uncomfortable with what I had said and with clearly this like series of questions that I was being asked. And I think that kind of in combination with what I was experiencing myself made me just feel like there was something going on that I needed to understand for myself and something that felt like antithetical to who I thought of myself as and what I wanted for myself, for my children, for my friends. So I just, I felt like I needed to understand all of that more. What did you learn?

So, So I just, I felt like I needed to understand all of that more. What did you learn? So. I can imagine you're thinking, asshole, I wrote a whole book about this. How can you ask me that question? No, I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking like, what are the, I mean, I learned a lot of things. And the book that I wrote was really

my own process and journey, right? I wasn't writing it, you know, I think sometimes people write a book because they've done a bunch of research and they have a perspective and they're going to bestow this wisdom on you. And for me, it was really that I had a bunch of questions and I was struggling with something. And I wanted to share the perspectives and answers and information that I was getting as I was struggling. So I learned a lot of things. I learned that, kind of unsurprisingly, the American ideal of what success is, is a very isolating one. We really uphold the idea of independence as a measure of

success, which is kind of fundamentally antithetical to what it means to be a person. We are not independent. We're not turtles where our mom lays a bunch of eggs on the beach, and then is like, peace out, good luck with the seagulls. We don't raise ourselves, we don't care for ourselves, we don't acquire the things we need to live, like food and shelter and water, on our own. We are inherently interdependent animals. Biologically, that's

who we are. That is in opposition with the ideal that America puts forward in terms of what success looks like. So it made sense to me that part of what I was experiencing as I achieved this version of success was isolation. We are a society that is like allergic to asking for help because we see that as a sign of weakness. But of course, all of us need help and support. And not only do we need it, but we and the people who are offering it benefit from it. I learned that the best models we have for how to be in relationship with each other, with how to build friendships and families and communities, the best examples of those are happening in the most marginalized communities. I think largely because the systems of success and support that we have either kind of exclude

those folks or harm them. And people have had to, for survival reasons, figure out how to take care of each other outside of those systems. And I don't want to romanticize the experience of being oppressed as a black person or a queer person or an unhoused person. And certainly that's not a universal experience for people who are marginalized. But the examples that I kept finding as I was interviewing people and as I was researching, these ideas were among black folks, queer folks, unhoused people, sex workers, groups of people who have really had to figure out how to survive in hostile environments. So how did your life change as a result of learning all of this? Is that another overly broad question?

No, but I mean, I feel like it was not just kind of trying to objectively research something. I was practicing. I was learning from the people who I was interviewing and from the kind of desktop research. I was building better community. And I think part of it is that it sharpened the critique I already had of American capitalism and our ideas of success. It clarified for me why community and connection and friendship and family outside of conventional definitions of those things, but really expansive ideas of those things. It clarified for me why those things are important and why our survival of myself in building those relationships.

And I will say that I did the research from 2018, 2019. The book came out in June of 2020, so during the pandemic. And I got to experience the of the fruits of, you know, this collective labor. You know, I think for a lot of people, the first three years of the pandemic was a very isolating experience. And then I think there were people for whom it was a time of uncertainty and anxiety and fear, but there was also a lot of kind of solidifying of connection. There were ways in which the groups of people that I am in relationship with solidified and strengthened our bonds with each other. We were providing each other with

resources. We were providing each other with information. We were providing each other with a lot of emotional support. We were checking in on each other. If somebody got sick, we were taking care of them. So it was really beautiful to kind of have had this, you know, couple of years of doing this research and practice and then have this opportunity to see, you know, in crisis, what that looks like. I'm just curious on a nuts and bolts practical level,

once you learned, oh yeah, there's something missing from my and our understanding of success and the good life. And that thing that's missing is community interdependence, interbeing as it's sometimes called. What does your life look like on a day-to-day basis now as opposed to before you started this quest? I mean, the honest answer is that I still struggle with it. And this is the other thing that I think I learned since in kind of the book coming out and then having conversations of people about it as they tried to put into practice ways

of being in a relationship that were deeper than what they had before. I mean, I still feel like I have an amazing community and I feel more connected to people. But I'm also very clear that this is not a like, you know, we can't bootstrap our way into community either. We live in a society where the conditions do not actually support our relationships with each other. The conditions make it very difficult for us to have time, energy, knowledge, and like reinforcing experience of being in connected relationship with each other. So one of the things that I say so much more to people now is like, if this is hard, even though this is who we are, right? We do not,

it's like we are air breathing creatures. If we had to survive in the ocean, like it would be hard. Right? So even though this is who we are, we struggle with it and that we have to recognize that so that we don't feel like we're failing at something that we should be good at. We have to give ourselves and each other a lot of grace. And relationship and connection requires tending, but the circumstances that we're tending in are very hard, which means that we have to be really vigilant about it, which means it's exhausting, right? Sometimes it's very exhausting to try to maintain connection and relationship. So now I think that I'm just more aware of when it's working and when it's not for me and both giving myself permission to be

shitty at it and also noticing and checking in with myself to see if there are things that I can do to shift that. Sometimes there aren't. Sometimes I just go through a little period of feeling like I'm not as connected to my folks as I'd like to be. As problematic as some of our technology is, I'm so grateful that I can text a whole bunch of people at once as opposed to having to, I don't know, call them on the phone or visit them individually

to just say, I'm thinking about you, sorry if I've been absent, I noticed you've been absent, whatever that is, to just kind of maintain a little bit of the noticing of what's not working if I can't actually make it work. Personally, I think it's very helpful actually to point out that this is hard, that the structure of modern society militates against having a community.

Totally. I wish I'd written that more into the book because I think that, you know, we often have like lists of stuff that we are trying to do and habits we're trying to change to make ourselves better people. And that can just become kind of a burdensome list of ways in which you're fucking up. And that's just not helpful. Then we just feel like shit about ourselves. And I feel like it's okay for us to not get it right when it comes to relationship. But I think it is helpful to be

explicit about that with ourselves and with our people, right? That we're all struggling to do all these things and we're not always going to get it right. And if we can notice when we're screwing it up or when it's a struggle because of the circumstances we live in, I think even that's helpful in terms of the context of our relationships as well. Yeah. I actually would broaden it out personally as somebody who talks to audiences a lot about behavior change. I often talk about the seven or eight or nine pantheon of no-brainers when it comes to doing life better, sleep, exercise, meditations, nature, psychotherapy, medication if you need it, having a healthy diet without getting crazy about it.

And the one I always end on is the importance of relationships because we have all of this data that shows us it's the number one lever to pull if you want to live a happy and long life. But one of the things I often point out to people is that habit formation is very hard. And I don't say that to be discouraging. I say it for just the opposite reason that if you can have these Pantheon, these no brainers in your mind as sort of directionally appropriate as North stars, but give yourself a break as you're doing your best to pursue these, then

then actually think that's the best probably that you're doing your best to pursue these, then I actually think that's the best probably that you're gonna do. Yeah, and I think that part of it is, again, in the context of capitalism, we have to provide labor in order to earn this made-up thing called money so that we can get our basic needs met. So we can literally stay alive, right?

We have food and shelter, and ideally some form of healthcare and education. And that just that takes up so much of our time and energy that all of those other things, which we absolutely need to live a life of wellbeing, we can'tbeing. We're not failing ourselves if we can't hit those things. It is that our culture is actually failing us, that we live in a culture that is designed to impede us from being well people because it's trying to extract from us our labor. I think it's really important, especially for folks who are struggling with any of those things to recognize that, you know, we live in a society where work is the sun around which the universe of our lives revolves, which means that it dictates

our time and we're meant to organize everything else in our lives around that. And some of us absolutely, like, and myself included, have the privilege of being able to dictate some of that. But nonetheless, if I don't work, I don't eat. If I don't work, my family does not have a place to live. So there's a prioritization there that has to happen. So there's a prioritization there that has to happen. And that means that exercise, nutrition, therapy, nature, right, all those things that you named end up being like the second thing that I do. Like the work piece has to come first or I die, right? Or we end up on the street or whatever. And part of the leap of faith I think we need to take around the relationship piece is that when it's working, it brings ease to all of those other things, right? There's a way in which I need to like pay more attention to time and nature or meditation or nutrition or exercise if I'm super disconnected from my people because my body, my system, my spirit, my mental health is not as supported if I'm not connected to other people.

So there are all these levers to push and pull. There's no actual stasis of balance that we get to, which can be really discouraging. To say that things are systems and you can't actually change those things. And the one hand, I think is important to know like it's not your fault, right? It's not your fault that you're struggling with these things. And it also can feel too big to actually do anything about. And that's a place that I really like to sit in that tension, right? Of like the potential for just feeling hopeless and despondent about it all versus the ways in which we can kind of create our own micro-infrastructures of support, the ways in which we can organize to change those systems, the ways in which we can recognize that we have a… No matter who your

people are, there's some history of your ancestors having to struggle with some of these same things and figuring out how to stand in a long arc that is not just about like, what is it that you experienced in your lifetime? But what did your ancestors pass on to you? And what are you passing on to your descendants? So that it's not just, we live in this fucked up system and it is preventing me from realizing the best possible

version of myself, but knowing that is actually generational work that needs to happen and figuring out what is yours to do in that arc. I feel like that's where my hope kind of stays is that, yes, I'm not going to live in a society that is actually as supportive of all of its living beings as it should be. But I can do my part while I'm here to make sure that my descendants are a little closer to whatever that is. Jared Ranere Yeah, I heard the Dalai Lama say something once that I found to be reassuring, even though I don't actually know if I buy the metaphysics of his assertion, which I'm about to relate to you, which is that I believe he was saying this to a bunch of activists that you need to think about this work over the course of multiple lifetimes. And whether you believe in rebirth or not, it's, you know, it's a, it kind of puts it in perspective and calms you down. But let me just go back to capitalism for a second, because I'm curious how deep your critique of capitalism goes.

to capitalism for a second, because I'm curious how deep your critique of capitalism goes. You talked about how we were in an extractive system and we need to work and that can prevent us from doing the things that we need to do to be happy and highly functioning. But, you know, I've spent time living with indigenous communities and from what I could tell, they were all working to raising children, attending the fields, hunting. I don't know of many societies where outside of the upper crust, people weren't working. So maybe you're saying that, yes, work is part of life, but we're not providing a social safety net that allows people to have enough extra time

so that they can do the things that the human animal needs to do to thrive. Yeah, so I think there is like separating the idea so that they can do the things that the human animal needs to do to thrive. Yeah. So I think there is like separating the idea that work is capitalism, right? Of course, human beings have to do things in order to access the things we need to survive. Those things don't just like come to us. we live in a system where we have to participate in the kind of grind of being productive in order to earn money. And that if we do not do that, we starve, right? Or don't receive medical care or we can't have a house. In a well society, everyone is able to participate to the best of their own abilities. And because it's a collective, right, there's

a sense of responsibility for everyone who's in that collective. So, you know, we are people who are taking care of children are participating in some way and we make sure that they have food and shelter and water and care and rest and all the things that they need. People with disabilities, right, they exist. So we don't say like, you know, you don't, you're not participating and you're not being productive so you don't get to eat. We have elders, right, who have, you know, less energy, less physical capacity, whatever. And we still make sure that those folks are taken care of. One of the analogies that I sometimes use is there's this, I think it's a trust game maybe, I don't remember what it is exactly, but you have a group of people and they're all standing in a circle with like their right shoulder facing in and they're all kind of tightly together and everybody sits down. So everyone is being held and everyone is holding

and you know a someone who's much smaller than me can hold, I can be sitting in their lap because the strength of the group is actually supporting them and holding me. And I feel like that is just a beautiful analogy of what the alchemy and like physics of a well community looks like. Everyone is being held, everyone is holding and everybody is contributing to whatever their capacity is. And you know, over the course of our lifetimes or over the course of a week, our capacity changes. But in our society, people are expected to show up to work, often for a wage that doesn't actually allow them to access the things that they need to live. And they're expected to do that regardless of what their capacity is that day.

So people show up to work sick, they show up to work when they have people to take care of, they show up to work and when transportation systems aren't working, and if they don't, they get fired. And that is the reality for a huge number of people in our society. And we're not taking care of people and we're not providing them with the things they need. We are extracting from them. And it's almost as if people are being held hostage to this system because if they don't participate, they'll die. Or they'll be on the street or they'll be malnourished and they certainly will not be well emotionally. Do you believe the system can be fixed, the current system, that we could legislate our way to a well society through the current paradigm or that it needs to be overturned wholly?

I mean, I don't see capitalism as a system that is meant to support us. So it doesn't make sense to me to try to fix it. I'm much more interested in returning to slash creating new systems that prioritize prioritize our well-being as opposed to profit. And as I say that, I myself have an internal voice that's like, that's unrealistic and all the things. And what I say to that voice and what I ask people who think that's ridiculous or unachievable is, I mean, one, we don't know unless we try. And we've also done a lot of hard things. I mean, the thing that I always go back to for myself when I think about what it means to end awful systems is I think about, and this is where I go back to generational work, right? I think about my ancestors in like, I don't know, the 1700s and know that there were folks

who were enslaved who were like, we really, we just need to make like less shitty slavery, right? Like we need to create some laws and some regulations so that this system is less harmful to us because they couldn't imagine it not existing because it had existed for generations and would go on to exist for generations after they were dead. And then there were other folks who were like, no, like this system is is just fundamentally, morally wrong and corrupt, and it needs to not exist. And those folks were like, we need to abolish it. We need

to get rid of it. And they never saw the end of it. But they believed that it was not enough to just tinker around the edges of something that should not exist. So I try to put myself, when I think about capitalism, I try to put myself in the mindset of being like, you know, it's all I've ever known. It's all generations of us have ever known, but it has not existed forever, right? It's not the only way to do things. And I think that we as human beings are like infinitely creative and have such capacity for imagining and building new things. And I'm like, let's try something different. And I don't know how we get there. Like, let's be clear, I don't know, like, what I don't have, like a plan, or a strategy for that. And there are people who absolutely have thought about these things. That's not my lane. That's not the role that I hold. But I see the ways

in which capitalism is harmful, not just to us. It's literally destroying the planet that we live on. It is harmful to all life on the. And I'm like, I don't want to just keep a system because it's really big and seems hard to get rid of if it's actually gonna end up getting rid of us. I appreciate you letting me take you on this. I don't know if it's a tangent, but just down this road. It's not a tangent. I feel like this is so fundamental to the work. Because again, like we were talking about community and the ways in which the system we live in

makes it challenging, right? They're not the conditions for us to connect with each other. I mean, if only because we don't have enough fucking time to do it, right? Like if you're at work 40 hours, which we say is like full-time, but many of us of course work over full-time, but many of us, of course, work over full-time,

like whatever that is. You think about the, you know, sleep, right? Got to sleep. And then all the things you need to do to run an adult life, right? Whether it's raising children or caretaking for other people, you know, paying your bills, grocery shopping, like all the stuff.

You don't actually have a lot of time to be in relationship with people. And relationships require time. So it is right in here. Like, it feels like it is fundamental to what we're talking about. Yeah, I think for this show, we don't often talk about. Sometimes we do. It's not verboten by any stretch, but it's a, we usually dwell in the space of like how an individual can improve their own

lives and the lives of the people around them. And so I think it's, I think it's totally fascinating and I'm glad we discussed it. And I want to also just get back to some of the things we were talking about earlier, but like how your life looks differently, things you've implemented into your life in order to get this community that you so convincingly argue we need in order to thrive. And I believe one of the things you've done in order to sort of get this community going in your life is to involve other people

and raising your children. Absolutely. Neither of my husband or I grew up in families where our parents were the only people raising us. I was raised by my mom. My father was absolutely a part of my life, but I lived with my mother full time. And she, as a single working person, figured out fairly early on that that was not a thing you do by yourself. She had friends who were basically my aunties and helped raise me. Then I think there was also just that my school community of folks, my friends and I helped raise each other. My friends' parents helped raise me.

So that was a context that I grew up in where there was just like lots of caring adults around me, supporting me in whatever it was I was doing. And then my husband grew up in a kind of like the opposite kind of context where he lived with his parents. He's one of seven and they lived in a commune, sounds too culty, but like a very tight knit rural community. So there were just groups of kids running around all time. There were lots and lots and lots of adults who were doing caretaking of children,

helping to raise kids. I am now part of that community, so there are all these folks who my husband and his siblings grew up with who are people that my children have now grown up with. So we both grew up in that context. And part of what we were talking about earlier is why I wrote the book that I wrote. And what I saw is that for us, right, like we live in a city, we own our own home, we both at the time were essentially running our own businesses. And there was a way in which it was super easy to kind of isolate and feel like everything that needed to happen for our children was going to be up to us. And there was a point after my son was born when I was just like, this is some bullshit. Like at the very least, I need to have some dates with my husband. And I was thinking about how occasionally we would like pay for a babysitter and go out to eat. And I was like,

that's, you know, I like a fancy cocktail. Like that becomes very expensive. So I thought, you know, there are other families who are struggling with the same thing. And I talked to two other families that my daughter, the kids all went to school together. And we started this thing called KidFun. And that was our like marketing for the kids. We didn't call it date night. And every other Saturday for like four hours, all the kids would go to one family's house.

And then the other two couples could go do whatever, go have dates. Sometimes for us, that meant we could go and have sex like when it was light out still in our house. We would stay home and get takeout, have sex, and watch a movie. Certainly the intended result was that I get to spend this time with my husband where we were not caretaking, we were not talking about logistics, we could just hang out and enjoy each other's company. But there ended up being all of

these other benefits that thrilled me. Part of it was about the kids and their relationships with each other and that they had this regular time when they would spend time together in each other's homes. They got to be in different households and adapt to whatever the rules in that household are. And that I feel like is just such a good skill for people to have, right?

I also found that when we had the kids in our house, like they were entertaining themselves. They were like, you know, playing, they were watching whatever. And I still got to have kitchen date with my husband. We would be in the kitchen, the kids would be eating pizza, we'd take our pizza and a glass of wine and like be in the kitchen and the kids would be in the living room. So we still got to like spend time with each other, which was amazing. And then the other thing was about the relationships that the kids had with the adults who weren't their parents. And the ways in which I myself got close to children who were not my children, the ways in which I saw my kids

develop relationships with adults who were not their parents. And the love and care that those relationships provided for them was just really beautiful. And that was just like, it was so easy to structure and put together. Everybody was excited about it. We stopped doing it when our kids could start being at home by themselves. But I think during those early years when you're just kind of consumed with the relentlessness of taking care of little people who can't make their own dinner or obviously be trusted to be home by themselves, It was such a relief for us,

but also there were all these other benefits that ended up happening, which was amazing. Coming up, Mia Birdsong talks about some practical tips for building community in your own life, mutuality versus reciprocity, and some tips on working with an inevitable part of interacting with other people, resentment and rejection.

I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we're going to be exploring the life of Margaret Thatcher. The first female leader of Britain. Her 11-year premiership completely overhauled British society. The political legacy of Thatcherism is both pervasive, but also controversial. So who was the woman behind the policies? Wow, what a titan of modern British history, Peter.

It's kind of intimidating, actually. We spent days, days recording this one. And just to cut it down, there is so much that happens over the course of Margaret Thatcher's life that we've had to think really hard about what we can include. And this is, of all the characters we've done so far, the one who's had the most personal impact on my conscious, waking, real-time life.

I mean, I lived through her, I was born under her, I'm a Thatcher baby. That's going to be set to dance music. So follow Legacy Now from wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad free on Wandery Plus. Alice and Matt here from British Scandal. Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there? Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humour.

If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal, the show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We've looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king, no one is safe. And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job anytime soon. Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. We listen to get started. When you're in community with others, like in the example you just gave, um, with the other families, how important is like equivalence of help? Like does everybody have to be giving and taking the same amount?

I mean, in this context we did because we just kind of rotated. But I think of other contexts where, again, if there are enough people, that it's not about reciprocation, right? It's about mutuality. And for me, that distinction is reciprocation is, I do this thing for you that's worth this amount of time or money or there's some like calculation that happens. And then with the understanding that at some point you will do that thing for me, right? Or something equivalent for me. Whereas mutuality feels much more, it's less about a one-on-one relationship. It feels like it's about a group. And it is that everybody contributes like to their capability. And that we understand that the folks who,

in the moment or consistently can contribute less, that them getting what they need benefits us. So it's not like we're all doing more to take care of this person and it's completely altruistic, but it's actually this understanding that our own wellbeing is dependent on the wellbeing of the people in our community and that all of us contribute in the ways that we can. It's looking at the complexity of contribution as well. I had a friend who had to move recently,

and I had my husband come over because I was like, he'll just come and he's my farm hand at home. If I need bales of hay or whatever move, and it's not because he's actually stronger than me, it's because my contribution tends to be more of the like, management organizing of things, right? Like I don't clean the house, he does. I want the bales of hay moved, like he'll do that for me. So I had him come over to help move stuff with us. And to be clear, this was my Pilates instructor. There are a whole lot of very strong people there. But I was like, he should come and bring some energy that is like, he will just do whatever we tell him to do as

opposed to being trying to manage it because there were a lot of us in the management role. And he did it not because he don't take Pilates with her, but he knows that her wellbeing benefits me, right? And she is part of our community. And there was a way in which I feel like that knowing, right? That like we do things for somebody in our community because we know that they deserve whatever that is. And we recognize that they have a role in our community that is facilitated, right, by our supporting them. I mean, I keep going back to the word alchemy because it feels very like somebody could probably do the math, but you don't need to because there's a kind of pragmatic faith that you have to have in that context that I find is in and of itself a nourishing thing. When I can show up for people that I love, when it is me giving freely of my time, energy, commitment,

whatever, there's a way in which I am nourished by that, right? That I'm nourished by supporting other people. I like that pragmatic faith. While we're on a practical tip here, one of the things you write about is rejection. I'm going to read you back to you. You say, when people say no, it's information about them, not rejection, not about you.

This realization helps us process, helps us distinguish between what's ours to deal with and what is somebody else's. Yes. I mean, that. Totally. What's your question? I don't know. I mean, I think that we... And this is not to say like, if you take something, if it feels hurtful, that you shouldn't feel hurt, like feel hurt, but understand that there's something about receiving other people's boundary, right, that I have tried to find gratitude in. And like one of the things I often say,

if I ask a friend for something or to do something for me, right, and they say no because they're busy or don't have the capacity for it or whatever, is I say thank you. Because I don't want my folks to extend themselves in ways that are crossing their own boundaries, right? That are beyond what is a healthy limitation for them. And rarely am I in a position where there's only one person, right? Who can do a thing for me or where the thing is

life or death. And if it is life or death, people will say yes. And so when I receive the no, right, it's not about rejection of me, right? It is about them caring for themselves. And since I care about them and I want them to be well, I feel like I want to receive their no with some gratitude and some thanks. And then the other thing I think is that people often have a hard time saying no. So saying thank you when people say no relieves some of that social pressure that we often feel to say yes. And I want my folks to know that I care about them and I want them to feel like they can say no to me when they can't

give freely of whatever is that I'm asking for. What do you do if you've got a person who's consistently saying no and also asking for a lot? I mean, I don't have that, but I think that what I would do is have a conversation. So one of the things my therapist said to me and my husband very early when we were in couples therapy with her, is she said, resentment is information for you that a boundary has been crossed. I was so mad about that because I was like, isn't resentment when I get to be self-righteous about somebody else fucking up or not doing enough. So if I'm asking something of somebody and they're consistently saying no,

and I'm doing a lot for them and I'm feeling resentful, that's information for me that I maybe shouldn't be providing as much in that relationship. And part of it depends on what it is, right? Like if it's somebody who like can't do that, like I'm not gonna like there's a match that you have to act have to kind of like have with what it is you're asking for and somebody's capacity. And if I'm consistently asking them for

something they don't have the capacity for that means I need to understand more about what their capacity is. But I feel like you're asking for a question about context in which people often, like they're in relationships with people who are a little selfish, right? And are often asking for things but not giving. And then I'm like, yeah, so for me, a balanced relationship, right, is I don't want to be giving things to people who are selfish and are not willing to give of themselves. So for me, the answer would be, I mean, I'd want to have the conversation, but it's also like, then I need to provide less, right? I need to, I'm no longer giving freely if I'm feeling resentful. So I need to set my own boundary around what it is I'm

going to do for that person. Now there are, I definitely have people in my life for whom I do more for them than they do for me. And I'm fine with it. It doesn't feel it like is it easy thing for me to do and there's nothing I actually want from them and that feels fine to me. And again, it's because I'm not thinking that the relationship needs to be reciprocal, that there needs to be balance because human beings aren't that way, right? We all have different capacities and abilities and people got shit going on in their lives, right? So if I'm not feeling resentful, then that's fine. But if I am, then I need to like reassess what's going on in that relationship for

me. Yeah, that makes sense. I think I have friends where it's not strictly equal, but it doesn't really matter. I have so much going for me in terms of luck vis-a-vis, you know, like the womb I came out of and all the opportunities that have been showered down upon me in my life. And so other people may not have that, but I want them in my life. And so if it's not entirely a one-way street, but you know, most of the traffic is going in one direction, that's fine. It's worth it. But okay, so I know, I know you get this question a, and I know you didn't write a how-to book.

Um, but I can imagine there are a lot of people listening, saying, oh, well, we hear in every fucking TED Talk that we need to have social connection in order to be happy, and you, Dan Harris, are telling us this all the time on this show. So, like, what do we do about it? I'm an introvert, or I don't know that many people. I just moved to a new city.

You know, what are the practical steps I could take? So, the first thing that... Yes, I get asked this question all the time, and I always say, I don't know. But this is the question, this is the thing I feel like we need to ask ourselves, right? There's some internal questioning that I feel like I need to do about what kind of connection I'm looking for and why. I really want to understand what is the space in myself that I have for relationship? What are the things that I need from relationship? And what kinds

of relationships can I get that from? So one of the things that just came up for me is I'm thinking about like, you know, Mia in her 20s was often looking for romantic relationships to fill some hole in myself. And that is not a hole that's ever going to be filled by a romantic relationship. And at some point I got to a place where I realized that and I got to take care of myself around that thing. And it allowed for romantic relationships that function in a very different way and that were not problematic for me. So I think knowing are these things that I need to get from myself or these things that I need to get from other people is really important. And then I think that there's a, I mean, you kind of brought up a bunch of different scenarios,

right? So when I think about the introvert, I think about how many introverts know an extrovert and can like pair up with that person. And like a lot of this requires that we tell on ourselves, right? That we actually say to the people in our lives, this is a thing that I feel like I need to work on. This is something I want more of in my life. Can we talk about how to do that with each other? Or can we talk about how to do that in our community? Or can you tell me how you did that here, right? In this particular context?

So that's one thing is just like, you know, I mean, one of the things people often talk about is getting to know their neighbors. And I'm like, there's no magic like skill you need to get to know their neighbors. And I'm like, there's no magic like skill you need to get to know your neighbors. I've told people to like, especially if they're introverts, I'm like pair up with the one, you know, extroverted neighbor you know,

or another introverted neighbor so y'all can just support each other. Like, you know, when I get a new neighbor to my neighborhood, we have a bakery that's real close. So I buy some cupcakes or whatever. I write a note and I welcome them to the neighborhood. I give them my cell phone number and my husband's cell phone number and I leave it on their doorstep, right? And inevitably I get a text, you know, that day saying thank you. And then if there's a relationship to build beyond,

can you just pick up a package for me? That's when that starts. And on my neighborhood, like we have, there's a group text with a handful of us who we watch each other's animals. I never worry if I'm like out of lemons or onions or soy sauce or whatever, I know somebody else is gonna have it and I can get it. We make the kids do the like running across the street to get whatever the thing is. And that like, that's like the beginning of those relationships, right?

And then, you know, you don't need to be best friends with your neighbors, but y'all should definitely know your neighbors. I feel like that's a piece of advice that I will like die on that hill. You should know who your neighbors are. The other thing I think is especially for folks who are like, you know, have just moved,

is that we don't build these relationships in a day. Relationships take time to build. You have to find your people. It is certainly more challenging when you're not a child in school or in college anymore to build those kinds of relationships. Part of what we assume is going to happen in the context of school is that we're going to meet people who we're going to be friends with. Sometimes you meet those people in your workplace, and that's great if that happens. And sometimes it just takes time and you have to be out in the world. And it has been really hard for folks to be out in the world for the last several years because out in the world has been a dangerous place. But there's just some spaciousness we need to give ourselves as we begin to find the places where our people are going to be.

And then I do think there is this process of like actually having conversations with people who are already in relationship about like what kind of relationship you want, and to see if they want something that can be more close or reliable or like, you know, kind of take it to whatever the next level would be in terms of that friendship or relationship. You see what you just did there, which is you said, I don't know when I asked you a question about how do we do this thing. And then you listed a bunch of actual actionable tips. Yes, so I have lots of, there are lots and lots of things. I think that often when people ask the question of how, they're looking for an answer, right? And part of it is that I think that there is

this way in which we actually need to ask ourselves and remind ourselves that being in relationship is who we are. And we actually know how to do it. We just have to give ourselves permission to do it because it can feel really fucking awkward. We can feel like we're out of practice. And again, I feel like that is because of the system that we live inside of, right? That doesn't encourage connection. It encourages us to get the things we need through transaction, right? One of the hallmarks of American success is that you've hoarded enough resources so that you can get everything you need through transaction and you don't actually need to rely on anybody else

because you can't trust other people to show up for you. So this is like a reclaiming of what it means to be a person and many of us are out of practice with that. We feel like if we ask somebody for help, then we owe them, right? Because we think of help as something that you usually pay for or as some kind of like reciprocal transactional thing. And this is something that is much more organic. This is something that is much more human.

And we have a lot of kind of detritus to remove from our assumptions about who we are, assumptions about who other people are and what we all want in order to return to this thing that we actually do know how to do, which is build and be in relationship with each other. Coming up, Mia talks about the etymological connection between the words friendship and freedom, and the transformative power of asking for help. Have you ever felt like escaping to your own desert island? Well, that's exactly what Jane, Phil and their three kids did when they traded

their English home for a tropical island they bought online. But paradise has its secrets and family life is about to take a terrifying turn. You don't fire at people in that area without some kind of consequence. And he says yes yes ma'am, he's dead. There's pure cold-blooded terror running through me. From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine, and this is The Price of Paradise. The real-life story of an island dream that ends in kidnap, corruption and murder. Follow The Price of Paradise wherever you get your podcasts or binge the entire season right now on Wondry Plus.

I'm Shimon Liayi, and I have a new podcast called The Competition. Every year, 50 high school senior girls compete in a massive scholarship competition. I wouldn't say I have an ego problem, but I'm extremely competitive. All of the competitors are used to being the best and the brightest,

and they're all vying for a huge cash prize. This will probably be the most intense that you've ever gone through in your life. I remember that feeling, because I was one of them. I lost. But now I'm coming back as a judge. And also a kind of teen girl anthropologist. Because if you want to understand what it's like to be a young woman in America today,

the competition's not a bad place to start. From Pineapple Street Studios and Wondry, this is The Competition. Follow The Competition on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Competition early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry+. I've committed a bit of journalistic malpractice, which is I'm only asking you now about a thing you often say That I like so much. In fact was the reason why I wanted to have you on because I'd heard you say this elsewhere You talk about the etymological connection

Between friendship and freedom. Yes, you lay that on us, please this is like one of my favorite things and partly because this research that I came across is actually what I'm doing now. So when I was doing research for my book, I came across in a couple of different places actually. So this information about freedom that just like resonated with me, I had never heard before

and I just like, I could not let go of it. So one is that the etymological root of the word friendship and the word freedom is a Sanskrit word that means beloved. And just that in and of itself, I was like, oh, friendship and freedom, they used to like sit together, right? They like came from the same womb. And I was just like, I don't know how to think about that, but yes, my spirit just said yes to that information. And then the other piece was that pre-1500s, in a very different Western context from the one we have right now, someone who was enslaved was understood as being unfree, partly because they were in bondage, but also because they had been separated from their people. So that to be free was to be in connected community.

And again, this like totally resonated with me and it just made sense to me because of what I know about human biology and who we are as people, right? Like we be in the tribe, right? Like that's just like our state of being is with the collective. And I went down like three different rabbit holes in my mind when I read these pieces of information. So the first piece was it recast for me my understanding

of black people's experience in America. And if we think about your people as not just being, the human beings that you like are in proximity to, but your ancestors, the land that you're on, your relationships with other living things, right? So that when black folks were kidnapped and trafficked from African continent across the ocean, we were obviously being separated like deeply from our people. And then if you look at the way that slavery was

practiced in America, like there was this intrinsic piece of it that was about the constant threat of being sold away from your people. And then obviously, for many people, the experience of being sold away from your people. If you look at the kind of post-reconstruction white supremacist terrorism in the South that created a refugee crisis that we call the Great Migration, right? Again, black folks being driven away from land and family again, Black folks being driven away from land and family through to the prison industrial complex, to child protective services. There's been this American project of trying to make Black people unfree by separating us from each other. And we see this too with like Indigenous folks and, you know, boarding schools with practices at the US border with Mexico, people being separated

from each other as a way of making them unfree. And then of course, anytime you're perpetrating any kind of oppression on people, there's always the resistance to it, right? So black folks jumping overboard, slave ships being like, I'm gonna get back to my people one way or another, people obviously rebelling, running away from resisting, being away from their folks on plantation. After emancipation, there were thousands of advertisements placed by Black folks who were trying to find loved ones who they hadn't seen in decades. They're archived. You can find them online. They're beautiful and utterly heartbreaking. And then I think about a lot of the resistance movements that exist being about like, how are

we making sure that we can be with each other? And then like, I can't tell you how many black folks I know who found out like when they were grownups, that, you know, their uncle Bobby is not actually their father's brother, but is their father's best friend from grade school. So there's this way in which we also just make family with each other. So there was that rabbit hole of just understanding this American project to try to make Black people unfree and our resistance to that kind of unfreedom.

The other rabbit hole I went down was thinking about what I had learned and what kind of gets promoted as freedom in America. And that it is deeply about independence. It is about, again, like getting enough resources so that you can get everything you need through transaction and not relationship. A hallmark of American freedom is that you can do whatever the fuck you want and not be responsible for or accountable to anybody. And as I thought about that, I was like, oh, that's like actually the opposite of freedom. We've been told there's been this like hundreds year grift that America has been pulling on all

of us telling us that freedom is a thing that's actually the opposite of freedom. And then I thought about what would this country be like if we believed that to be free was to be in connected community? What would our economy look like? What would our school system look like? What would our healthcare system look like? What would our neighborhoods be like? How would we think about designing cities? How would it change the way that we, what we expect from each other and what we expect from government or other institutions. And I was like, well, that's the world I want to live in. I want that one, the one where we believe, as Fannie Lou Hamer said, right, nobody's free unless everybody's free. Where we recognize, right, that like, my well-being actually is dependent on the well-being of my neighbors. And that when I am, you know,

the example I gave of that cantilevered, everybody's sitting on each other's laps thing, right? When I hold you, everybody else is holding me. That's the world that I wanna live in. Last question from me, you say freedom is a practice. What does that mean? So if being free is about being in connected community, right, that's not a thing that you just step into and then it's there. It actually is a thing that we need to practice. It is a thing

we need to work on both kind of our own, like noticing the places that we have where we don't believe it, either because we don't trust that we can have it or something in us is resisting it. You know, like one of the things that I absolutely struggle with is asking for help, right? Is like not kind of doing whatever it is myself. I feel like our audience is absolutely familiar with this. But if I believe that freedom is a collective practice, then my asking for help, right, my wellbeing is something that the people who love me actually are invested in.

And people want to help me. Because part of the reason we don't ask for help is because we believe that it makes us weak, but the other thing is that we don't think people will actually help us. I would go so far as to say it's a kind of self-hatred to be independent. So I feel like I need to push myself to ask for help when I feel myself being resistant to it because I'm uncomfortable with it. In the summer of 2021, I was diagnosed with colon cancer. And I remember making an explicit decision to not be a strong person through it. To not be like, I'm a kick cancer's ass, like I'm a do, you know, all of that. To like perform a kind of, you know, strong black woman. And I wrote emails

to, well first there was like a group of folks who like anointed themselves my care squad. And I wrote an email to my community and I was like, this is what's happening. I want all of you to help me. There are things that only I can do, right? Nobody else can go through chemo for me. Nobody else can go through surgery and recover. Nobody else can go through chemo for me. Nobody else can go through surgery and recover. Nobody else can hydrate me. Like there are things that I have to do myself, but I was like, everything else that can be done by another person, I'm asking you all to do that.

My community showed up in the most gorgeous, beautiful, powerful way. And I will also say, because we were talking about the conditions that allow us to be in community earlier, this was this period of the pandemic, which for my folks, things had slowed down a lot, right? People were not working as much. There was a lot of spaciousness.

And I know that folks would have showed up for me before and they would show up for me now, but I think that there was a way in which the conditions that we were existing in allowed for a level of joy and creativity and the way that people showed up for me. So like me and my family being fed, that was a given. That was like the low bar. There were spreadsheets. There was a walk crew of folks who would come to my house and make sure I was going for walks.

There was an errand crew that like if I needed anything, the captain of the errand crew would like text everybody and somebody would go get whatever it was. When I was in the hospital, getting part of my colon removed, there was a group of people on the lawn of the hospital singing for me. My folks created a joy fund for me that was like a pot of money for me to just spend

on something that brought me joy. I bought art supplies because I could be in bed and do art. And that asking for help, that decision transformed, certainly my experience of going through surgery and chemotherapy. And just to be clear, I'm like totally fine now. It supported my family, right? Because it's COVID and I have no immune system. No one can come in our house, right? So my husband's doing a lot of the caretaking inside, but there was a whole bunch

of people outside making sure that whatever we needed for that care to happen was available. But the thing that I kept hearing over and over again was how beautiful and nurturing it was for the people who were able to help me to be in a community of folks who were supporting me. Like it did something for them. And I hope that this is a lesson that I never forget because one, it was, I mean, it was uncomfortable sometimes

to be asking, right? And to know that like, I'm not, I'm just sitting here being sick and feeling like shit, like I'm not doing anything for anybody. So it was uncomfortable. But I could see, and people told me over and over again, how much beauty and joy it brought them to be able to support me in that way, but also to be doing it with this group of people. There were hundreds of people involved and they didn't all know each other, but there was a way in which they could see how other people were supporting me. It felt like people felt like they were alive. People felt, and especially in this moment when we were going through this pandemic, right? It brought people a sense of purpose and capacity and a belief that like, we can do these things for each other.

It's a great story. And I'm glad you're as healthy as you look. Thank you. And I really agree with you about the thing we often overlook that giving people a chance to be decent, to be helpful, to be generous actually is a kind of a gift. And that's a great point that you make. I'm really grateful to you for coming on this show. Before I let you go, could you please shamelessly plug

your book, your new organization, anything else you wanna plug, your favorite TV show, whatever it is. Someday I will have a TV show. So the book is called How We Show Up, Reclaiming Friendship, Family, and Community, or Family, Friendship, and Community. I don't remember, but How We Show Up. And my organization is called Next River. It's an institute foricing the Future. We are doing this big project right now called Freedoms Revival, which has been started. What we've done so far is the research on the kind of conditions that are necessary for collective freedom. In mid to late September, we'll be releasing the research that we've put together. It'll be on our website, which is nextriver.org. I think it'll be really amazing to read. That's all I got so far.

Awesome. Keep up the good work. And thank you again for coming on the show, Mia Birdsong. Thank you for having me. Thanks again to Mia Birdsong. We've dropped some episodes in the show notes here where we explore some of the same themes we explored with Mia.

These include some episodes with Dr. Marissa G. Franco, Dolly Chugg, Koshan Paley Ellison, and Lamarad Owens. You should go check this stuff out. Speaking of checking stuff out, don't forget to go to danharris.com. You can sign up for my newsletter where I sum up my key learnings from the episodes this weekend. Also make some cultural recommendations. Before I go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson.

We get additional support from Colin Lester Fleming, Isabel Hibbard, Caroline Keenan, and Wanbo Wu. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production, DJ Cashmere is our managing producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad-free on Apple Podcasts and on the Apple Podcasts. And if you're interested in listening to the podcast, you can also listen to the podcast on the Apple Podcasts. 10% happier, and I hope you do. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

Once upon a beat, remember those stories and fables that would capture your imagination and you couldn't wait to see how they would unfold? And now when you read them as an adult you think some of these old tales could use a fresh spin. We have a perfect podcast to bring you the stories you remember, remix and reimagine for the kids in your life today. Join me DJ Fuse and my trusty turntable, Baby Scratch, as we spin up new tales in the new kids and family podcast, Once Upon a Beat. Wondry and Tinkercast are bringing you a jam-packed, music-filled weekly party where hip-hop and fables meet. It's Once Upon a Beat. Follow Once

Upon a Beat on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to Once Upon a Beat. Follow Once Upon a Beat on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Once Upon a Beat early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or Wondry Kids Plus in our podcast. Once Upon a Beat. For more than two centuries, the White House has been the stage

for some of the most dramatic scenes in American history. Inspired by the hit podcast American History Tellers, Wondery and William Morrow present the new book, The Hidden History of the White House. Each chapter will bring you inside the fierce power struggles, the world-altering decisions, and shocking scandals that have shaped our nation. You'll be there when the very foundations of the White House are laid in 1792, and you'll watch as the British burn it down in 1814. Then you'll hear the intimate conversations between FDR and Winston Churchill as they make plans to defeat Nazi forces in 1941. And you'll be in the Situation Room when President Barack Obama approves the raid to bring down the most infamous terrorist in American history. Pre-order The Hidden History of the White

House Now in hardcover or digital editions wherever you get your books.