Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Sara Bareilles On: The Feelings You Fear Might Destroy You, What Antidepressants Actually Did to Her Creativity, and Why There's Nothing to Fix

Episode Date: August 28, 2026

Plus: her complicated relationship with antidepressants, weathering fertility struggles, and aging in public. Sara Bareilles joins Dan to discuss her new album Good Grief, a record she made after losing three close friends — Chad Joseph, Gavin Creel, and poet Andrea Gibson. The conversation covers grief as a transformative force, medication and mental health, fertility struggles and miscarriage, the creative process as spiritual transmission, aging without intervention, and patriotism as grief.  In this episode we talk about: Grief is a shortcut to the truth — it strips away distraction and forces presence "Name it to tame it" — putting feelings into words reduces their power Sara's fear that medication would suppress her artistry turned out to be the opposite: Lexapro felt like "a return to herself" The creative process as clearing a channel rather than owning the output — music arrives, it isn't manufactured "Nothing to fix" — acceptance as a countercultural act in an era of optimization Acceptance isn't resignation — you can surrender to what is and still take compassionate action Grief of country: loving America and mourning what it's becoming aren't mutually exclusive Social media distorts your experience of reality — have your experience of the world in the world Sara Bareilles is a two-time Grammy winner and Tony-nominated composer whose music and lyrics powered the Broadway hit Waitress — a role she later performed herself, both on Broadway and in London's West End. On screen, she earned an Emmy nomination for Girls5eva and for her performance as Mary Magdalene in NBC's Jesus Christ Superstar Live! She has sold over three million albums and 3.5 billion streams worldwide. Related Episodes: Sara Bareilles: Anxiety, Anger and Art (2021) How To Find Joy In an Anxious World (Sara Bareilles and Dacher Keltner, 2025) Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here Follow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTok Subscribe to our YouTube Channel Additional Resources:  Check out Sara Bareilles' website, including links to her new album Good Grief, and more info about the Good Grief documentary.  This episode is sponsored by: BiOptimizers: Head to bioptimizers.com/happier and use code HAPPIER for 15% off your order. Cash App: Download Cash App Today: click.cash.app/ui6m/oh9jnxlq #CashAppPod. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa® Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and The Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa U.S.A. Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and Bancorp debit flex card. Savings provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Pop songs generally cover romantic love. I've recently did a search for how many songs contain the words, I want you. And I think, and this is a while ago, I think it was like scores, if not hundreds of songs. However, there are some great pop songs that cover weightier, heavier stuff like grief, if you think about. Let it Be. Paul McCartney sings about his late mother, Mother Mary. Also artists like Beyonce and Kanye and Frank Ocean have written and sung about grief. And now comes my friend Sarah Borellis, who has recorded a whole album, which comes out today on the subject of grief. It's called Good Grief, and it is accompanied by a documentary, which is quite beautiful, and a whole tour. If you have never heard of Sarah, I don't know what's the matter with you, but if you've never heard of Sarah, she's a Grammy-winning songwriter, the composer and star of Waitress on Broadway, and much, much more. And a friend of mine, as I said. Sarah Borellis, welcome back to the show.

Hello, Daniel. I sometimes ask people, especially when I have somebody on the show who I know, I ask a question that is, it might seem perfunctory or tossed off, but I genuinely want to know the answer, which is, how are you? What's going on? You know, I'm a little wobbly. I'm a little wobbly right now. I think being on, I had breakfast with my husband this morning, Joe, and it was occurring to me that being on the precipice of sharing this body of work to the degree that it will be shared is just a really, it's like an OD and vulnerability.

old of day. And me, I love vulnerability. Don't get me wrong. I love to cry in front of people. I'm not mad about it. But it's a really tender, very personal offering. And so I think there is the part of me that's like, oh, I hope people will like it, you know, the powerlessness of that. Or it's like you release this thing that you love and you hope other people are kind to it in some way, or that it means. something to someone else in some way. I hear you. I hear you on the wobbliness. That seems, I mean, if you weren't, there might be a question of, like, sociopathology. Given how vulnerable you are making yourself in this, in this, like, not only in the record,

but also in the documentary. So I'll just say, I'm like just one person and I'm totally biased, but I've been listening to the record and watching the documentary. Both are beautiful. You had played me a couple of songs from the record beforehand, so I had heard some of the work, but now, like, listening to it in its entirety, it's amazing. So, congratulations. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I think for the first time in my career, in my artistic career, there is a kind of integration happening between, I don't feel like I'm presenting a body of work that is misaligned with what's happening in my personal life, where I don't have to go. and put on a dog and pony show and feel like, you know, behind the scenes, there's this other thing happening,

this, you know, the grieving or the whatever it is. You know, I think in the past, it's like when it's time to release a record, it's time to go and do the song and dance thing. And this whole offering feels more like an art project. It feels more integrated just as a piece of art. and as it relates to my life. So that feels great, actually.

And I thought that that would be really scary, even though I feel a little wobbly, but I feel really, it's a very empowered place, actually, that there's not something that, there's not some secret I'm keeping from everybody, you know, behind the work. I could imagine, like, past projects, like Girls Five Ever, the comedy you did or waitress or whatever you,

you are, you know, in its various iterations on Broadway. And then there was also a movie, you're out there promoting something that's fun or a little bit light and you've got some stern and drong or heavy shit happening in your personal life and you you don't it doesn't make sense to talk about that in that context oh totally i mean the first season of girls five i was having a full on dissociated episode and got on lexapro for the first time like taking anti-anxiety medication for the first time and i would they would call cut on on set and i would go to my dressing room and like have full on panic attacks and I know you get it and then I have to go and

like pretend I'm happy again. That is very disorienting. So I feel grateful that that's not at play, you know, for this record of all records. My gosh. What do you do when you're feeling woply? Like what's your go to? You know, it's really helpful to talk about it. Like even I was so looking forward to this podcast and to end this conversation with you because, but I have found, like, I would have the expectation that we would talk about real shit on here, but I have found that because the material on the record, it hits certain themes that generally the conversations have been really beautiful and kind of deep and a little bit emotionally charged, like, you know, the interviewers might have a story about grief or loss or infertility or something.

And I have found kind of overall, it's been really beautiful. So I don't know what I'm scared about. It's kind of been, like the data doesn't support me being scared about how this is going to go. Should just relax. It's funny, the release itself, the press tour could actually be the solution to the problem, which is also the release itself. Yes, I think that's all the medicine. Yeah. One of my favorite expressions is never worry alone. And like promoting this work is kind of like never worrying alone. Like you're going to be worrying aloud.

And I think that that's where the wisdom, you know, comes from sharing with other people and then just those little points of connection. And always, I mean, this is always the case, or at least it has been in my experience, is that when you put name to the feelings, those like the feelings of dread or the wobbliness or whatever it might be, the more you're just sort of making it real and something you're actually relating to, the less power it has. And so it's helpful, I think, to just be in conversation with it and about it. One of the venerable therapy cliches, which I happen to think is true, is, you know, name it to tame it. I came up with that. Did you invent the light bulb as well? What if that was my move on this press tour is just to lay claim to like a bunch of random. Yeah, it's like, yeah, that's mine.

Yeah, I do. I think that is powerful and I think it's really true. It's like it just is helpful to name it. So let's talk about the record. Okay. Good grief is not, I mean, it is a play on words, but like you're, you're actually kind of playing it straight. Like you, I think you mean that there is a good version of grief and there's goodness in grief itself. You know, the double meaning is helpful. It's like the exhaustion, you know, the expression that it's something my mind. mom actually says all the time, oh, good grief. And I always feel so like old-fashioned when it come, but it does come out of my mouth when it's like, oh, you drop something. Oh, good grief. Yeah, I really, my experience with grief has been just utterly transformative. And I, even though I, there are things about the circumstances that the grief is born out of that I wish I could change. for example, I have two friends who passed away that I would love to still be on this earth with.

But the experience of the grief has been so life-changing for me that I actually just feel really grateful for what has felt like a kind of miracle of walking through a tremendous amount of pain and loss. but really seeing just how much awe and mystery and what is life affirming about death and just how complex the experience of loss can be. So in some ways I wouldn't change it. You know, of course, I wish I have many friends, but I feel like I'm more the person that I'm meant to become because of losing them. And yeah, so I really thank them for. what has changed in me in my in my grief what is the mechanism by which grief changes you andrea gibson is this wonderful poet that i was involved with this documentary about their life called come see me in the good

light and one of the things andrea says is that grief is a shortcut to the truth and i think it's so tenderizing and it's so overwhelming that there's a kind of rawness about your expression that just comes to the surface. It's sort of like an impulsivity that gets released because you're sort of wrung out. And so I think that grief can bring you a kind of presence. There's like a presence to the to the present moment, an awake. and awareness of the present moment because it's because the experience is so big and so overwhelming. I suppose I could see that going in another way where it could also feel very disorienting,

but in my experience, it has been a reminder and the lesson is to stay really awake and aware of what is actually in front of you. This idea that we're not promised another day brings you to. a sense of gratitude for the day you do have, which is the only day you have, which is the one you're in, in all of this, of course,

being stuff that gets talked about so much in meditation practice, you know, just this moment, this breath, this, which I sort of love that it all orbits each other.

Yeah, I was just going to go there because I know you have imbibed no small amount of Buddhism and, because I've been in the room with you, while it's happened listening to the same teachers. You know, and Joseph Goldstein, who's a meditation teacher for both of us, you know, he has,

he often quotes this expression from the Buddha. The words are becoming otherwise. Everything is always becoming otherwise. Everything is always changing. And grief as, you know, losing someone as horrifying as that is, it does put you in touch with this non-negotiable truth. I don't know how you really wrap your arms around that unless you lose someone because we just live in a culture and a, I mean, globally, you know, we live in denial that we're going to die. Of course we do. It's so understandable because if you sat around and thought about the fact that you're going to die all the time, it just seems so depressing and miserable. But I think that

being what the privilege and the honor of witnessing someone sort of walking to the end of their days I yeah, I am a different person

because of that. The bravery, the honesty, the generosity that came out of that the surrender, the surrender of it is out of our control this life is out of our control. That is wild to really wrap your brain around.

The trick in my experience is remembering or not forgetting because you can have this experience of watching somebody walk to the end of their days to use your expression. And then I have found that it's pretty easy to get pulled back into like distraction and persona and all the other forms of bullshit that I personally am capable of. and I mean maybe making this record for you as a way of not forgetting. So much of this record felt like it kind of arrived from somewhere. It felt like a sort of transmission.

And I think some of that is I was so raw, but I also have more dead friends than I've ever had before. And I'm just like thinking about where do we go? What happens? Where are they? You know, like there's just a kind of that veil is thin thing. feels very real to me. And it does feel like a place to gather thoughts about this without really having any answers,

but just to gather myself and put it somewhere. I do feel so grateful to have that expression, you know, available to me, that I can put it in music. And that also feels like something that I can offer up, you know, to hopefully it will feel to other people because I know I'm not the only one holding it that we're all. That's been another incredible gift of grief of just seeing it is the invisible web that is in every room you'll ever be in every street you ever walk down. People carry their loss. And most of them are never talking about it, but everybody's got it.

Yes, and I think the fact that most of them are never talking about it is really painful for them for us. And I think one of the acts of service you've done in making this record and the accompanying documentary. A few things before we hear from our sponsors, I just want to gently nudge you if you haven't done it already to go over to Dan Harris.com and sign up for my newish meditation app 10% with Dan Harris. I am so proud of what we're doing over there. We've got all of these live video sessions at least once a week where you can meditate with me or one of our amazing teachers and then get your questions answered. We've also got courses from legendary teachers like Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein. We've got a growing library of guided meditations from

teachers like Sharon and Joseph, but also Seven A. Salasi, Jeff Warren and on and on. But really, the secret sauce is community. It is so hard to boot up or maintain a meditation practice. And one of the things that really helps is doing it in the carpool lane. And that's what we have set up over on the app. Go to Dan Harris.com. There's a free 14-day trial if you want to check it out before you buy. We'll be right back after this. Just so people are familiar, because I do want to talk about some of the messages and some of the songs, but I think there are three people you lost. There were three losses kind of in your mind as you wrote and recorded the record.

You mentioned Andrea, but there were two other people. Do you mind just kind of walking us through the players here? All my dead friends, as I joke about with my friends, so many incredible dead friends. Chad Joseph is the first one of my very close friends to have passed away. He was very beloved to, you know, my friend community. I met him in college. And there's a song on the record called Just a Kid that's really about Chad. Chad and I met when we both came back from our year abroad, studying abroad.

He went to England. I was in Italy. And we commiserated about the fact that we got back from our entire year being gone. We went to UCLA. And everyone was like, how was your summer? And we were both like, you know, I wasn't here at all last year. You haven't seen me in a year and a half. People were like, how is your summer?

I'm like, oh, we're really making a big impression. But it was incredible that we were both having that experience. And then we really bonded. And he was just one of the funniest people I've ever known in my life. And so we just laughed a lot together. And we moved in. I was going to school for five years. So in my senior year, my fifth year, he was already working.

And we got a little apartment together. And he was my first manager, my first road manager. He was with me as of the beginnings of my career. We're really taking root. Was at every show holding the email list, sending out. CDs to people. He was just an invaluable part of the beginning of my life as an artist. And really kind of sacrificed his own. He was working at a PR firm at that time and he quit his job to come with me on the road because I was so overwhelmed. And that, you know, that I sort of

honor that he gave up your dream for mine as a lyric from that song. And it was, just one of those pivotal moments where I'm like, I actually don't know what I would have done if he hadn't got on the plane and met me on tour. I think I would have, I really don't know what I would have done. It was life-saving me. It felt life-saving in the moment. And we were just, yeah, friends were decades after that. And he died in 2020. So Banner Year. We all love that 2020. And the other very dear friend that I lost is Gavin Creole. And he was a Broadway darling. And one of my most confusing relationships because I met him and I was actually felt like I had fallen in love with him. And he was a very, very, very gay man. I was like, this is clearly not going to work out in my favor. But I really felt like I had fallen in love with his soul.

And I did. I did. I fell in love with his soul. And he taught me so much. He's, again, a very beloved member of the theater community and also in the West End in London. But in New York theater, he was just one of those, oh boy, he was like a sparkler. He just, he brought light and generosity and fun and childlike joy into every room he was in. And, and, and, and, and, and, then he was gone. It was so fast between his diagnosis and his death was just a few months. So it was a really disorienting. I was saying to someone, he feels like a dream. It was like the experience of him was so profound. And then it's like as surreal to me that he ever happened as it is that he's gone. It's a very strange experience because he wasn't in my life for you know, 40 years. He was like, I got like 10 years with this guy. I mean, and I wish we would have grown old together, but what an amazing gift of a life.

And Andrea, like surprisingly, really, they feel like a little Trinity to me. There's a little trifecta of them. And they all have this, for those who are not familiar with Andrea Gibson's work, They were the Poet Laureate of Colorado. Unbelievable writer. Just one of the most profound thinkers. When I think of Andrea's work, I refer to them as a prophet. I really think it's like spiritual guidance that I get from Andrea's work.

Andrea dealt with a lot of years of suicidality and major, major depression. And they talked about when they got their cancer diagnosis, they went into this state of rapture. And they, for like two years, they were in love with life. And it was this strange thing. They were always afraid of getting sick, always like super hypochondriac and really afraid of getting sick and also had crazy depression and then got sick. And it was like the greatest gift that ever happened to their life.

But this film about Andrew's life Come See Me in the Good Light is a really extraordinary, so funny. You wouldn't think that a queer poet's cancer journey would be like a great watch, but it really, really is. It is so life-affirming. But the three of them, those three people

really carry a kind of magic. Each one of them carried a kind of magic that I almost can't believe was real. And it just makes me want to live in their honor. to the degree that I can. You talk about all of them when there's a real sparkle in your eye while you're doing it. And yet, if I understand correctly, like when you were really going through it, there were times where you thought, like, the grief would eat you alive.

Yeah. It felt akin to when I would go into really deep anxious, like I had, like, my hurricane of anxiety, depression. it was almost like the feeling is too big to hold. Like I actually had the physical sensation of like I'm going to dissolve into this bigger experience. And the wonderful insanity of those kinds of experiences is that the truth is you don't dissolve. If you can just stay, you will survive. It is painful, but the grief won't eat you alive. It won't. And the more you allow it to be, the less power it has over you. I think, I think that's true. But yeah, I remember being upstate

and calling my husband and just being like, I, it's making me tearful. I didn't want to go to sleep. I was, like, afraid. I didn't want to turn the TV off. And I was just really afraid of my grief. And it was, but it won't ultimately make you dissolve. What you discover is that, like, there is no bottom to any of it. It's just that incredible free fall that we're in, the groundlessness that gets discussed.

so often, the surrender that is necessary in order to relate to what is actually happening. Yeah, I'm sorry, it was so hard. And I feel like what you're describing and displaying here is courage to just sit with it, to feel what you don't think you can take. I feel really lucky to have discovered another one of my great discoveries. I discovered Lexa Pro, which was really helpful for the world. But I, oh my God, I don't know what I would do without these other resources. Like, you know, I'm someone who takes medication, but I also am a meditator.

I am in therapy very regularly. You know, I use the tools at my disposal to manage what sometimes feels unmanageable. And it's not linear. It's not always pretty. it's better than the alternative, which for me was always like a kind of a frozen, fearful state, which I don't, I don't experience that nearly as often as I used to. Let's talk about Lexa Pro. So if I understand, just for people who don't know Lexa Pro is an antidepressant,

I have, I just want to be super clear to you and to everybody else. I take an antidepressant and have for decades. So I'm not asking these questions from a standpoint of unfamiliarity or judgment. When you started taking it, if memory serves, you had some resistance that it might like fuck up your art. I had so much resistance. It was more than fuck up my art. It was like, who am I if I can't handle my life? Who am I if I'm trying to suppress or put distance between what is clearly a very natural state of being?

I mean, I've always been someone, I don't even like taking aspirin. Like, I'm just like, I like to know what my body is feeling. And I think that my deepest fear around taking medication was that something would feel, some part, essential part of myself would feel suppressed, that I would feel distance. And I actually, and I talk about this a lot, is that what I experienced being on medication to feel like is it was a return to myself. that I started recognizing myself again rather than who I had started living with and making, you know, and being around all the time, which was a very fearful kind of paranoid, depressed, anxious person who was having ruminating thoughts, who was, um, fixating on weird problems, just like, terrible sleep, you know, it's just like not a good quality of life. The quality of my life is so much better on medication. And if I'm honest, I still have that. I'm curious to ask you this question.

There's a part of me that's like, am I ever going to get like enlightened enough to get off meds? Do you think about that? I think about it quite a bit. Not only am I ever going to get enlightened enough to get off meds, but, you know, they didn't have meds until recently. And so, um, am I just a wuss for not being able to manage what people have managed for millennia? But I think what I've come to is a different POV. I'd be curious about yours. But like I use a telephone and I go to the dentist and I drive a car all relatively recent discoveries. And so why would I not avail myself of these new technologies, which can relieve suffering. In my conversations with Joseph Goldstein, his point of view is, like, you should definitely avail yourself of it if you need it. You know, like, we all

have different nervous systems and brain chemistry. And if there's medicine that can treat that to do exactly what you describe, which is to, I sometimes, when I'm not on the medication or undermedicated, it feels like somebody's pulled the fire alarm in my nervous system. And that's Nothing fucking good is going to happen in that state. And so if you can Medicaid for it, go for it. I'll just tell you one little story, and I'm talking too much. But right before a dinner that I think you were at a couple of months ago, I can't remember if you were there or not. But you were invited.

I made a really big impression. It was like when you were in Italy for a year and I didn't notice, you know. It's okay. It's okay. It's kind of my plate. You were definitely invited. It was a dinner with a bunch of people that you know. Joseph was staying at our house for a couple days.

And right before we were supposed to leave for this dinner, I had a really, really stressful phone call. And my wife was worried about me. And she told Joseph, and I stepped out of a meeting. And Joseph and my wife were both like, we think you should take a clonopin. I love it so much. That's a long way of saying, you know, I do think there's, I think there's a pretty good case to be made for medication if done wisely. I deeply agree. I just was off it, mostly because I was, if I'm honest, lazy that I just didn't want to make a follow-up appointment with my psychiatrist.

I see my therapist almost weekly, but I'm making another appointment and I got to go to the pharmacy and get so. I was like rationing my meds because I was like getting to the end of my bottle of Lexington. pro and then i'm just like i watch i watch the panic level start to rise just like you're saying where it's just like uh my state of like agita is just increasing and increasing and i'm just watching myself become a little less capable of coping things knock me over just a little more easily and i'm like why am i doing that what is the point you know I think it is, if it's a tool that betters your quality of life and makes you more readily available to do the things you do, which I know that for me, it does matter to me to be of service in this life. And I know I can't be of service if I am so distracted by my own whatever, you name it. So it's helpful for me to get out of my own way so I can go be in my life in a way that I think is helpful. What is service, if not enlightenment? And so what the medication is allowing? It's not, it, the wrong formulation of the question is, will I ever get sufficiently enlightened that I don't need the medication? It's, if I don't have the medication, will I ever achieve any degree of enlightenment at all? Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. So just to jump in on the timeline there, you made a reference of going off of it. So if, if memory serves, you were kind of on for a couple of years and then off right around the time that you recorded this record,

not because you, as you just described, not because you made some affirmative decision to go off of it, but because you were procrastinating or something. And then you went back on more recently. Is that correct timeline? Going off of it wasn't while I was making the record. It was just actually just a couple months ago. Oh, okay.

Yeah. So kind of just letting it. I did try one other time, though. Maybe you're remembering a conversation we had. Yeah, I did try one other time to get off of it. And it was just, it did not work. And I think there was a part of me, I think it was about a year in,

there's a part of me that just wanted to know, like, what's in there. And turns out, yeah, pretty uncomfortable stuff. So your initial fear was that if you're on medication, it would block your ability to make art. You hadn't made much music for a while until this record. Like there was like a four or five, maybe longer year interregnum.

And you said that the well had run dry, I think. So, yeah, how do you explain all of that? I really experienced 2020 as like a before and after. I think I was stunned into silence, quite honestly. Like, I was so overwhelmed by what we were watching happen with the, world and politically and I think the and so much what felt like cruelty and and I was so I was just stunned. I had nothing to say about it. I couldn't metabolize the experience enough to make anything out of it and I remember feeling sort of jealous of artist friends who were like making,

they were doing online concerts and doing things and I just had nothing to say. And I had a couple of little musical moments that started that year, but they were very sort of private. One of them being a song called Wind is the Weather, that is my only experience in my whole lifetime of channeling something where I just pressed record. And the song, I have the audio recording of it. It's just the song was writing, sort of wrote itself. And it felt like a prayer. It felt like a desperate plea. my birthday in 2020. This is pre-medication. And I was like, I'm really going to lose, I'm like losing

it here. And this song showed up and it was just all about, I am not broken. You cannot break me. Like there's nothing to fix. There's nothing to fix here. It's just the weather. Like the wind is the weather. And it was a really profound experience. So that song was actually like one of the last songs to make it onto the record. But it was a very slow. I mean, I sort of average, I would say, six to seven years between albums, which is shockingly not so typical for people who are trying to be competitive musical artists in the pop sphere.

They're like, yeah, we have a really long attention span. But it's just the pace I work at. I just don't, I can't manufacture it very easy. And I do work in other mediums. You know, I have another musical coming out. And so it's not like I'm doing nothing. But it is a really slow process for me. It always has been.

When you say nothing to fix, can you say more about that? Because I think that's a very countercultural notion in this era of optimization, et cetera, et cetera. It's the thing I really keep trying to cling to. And it feels like, again, another time. of meditation practice that is to just be in relationship with what is, to just be with where you're at without trying to change it or alter it or fix it in any way. And I think I had a friend, my friend Shoshana Bean, actually, she's a wonderful artist, but she said that to me. She's like,

you're not broken. There's nothing. There's nothing to fix. And I, I mean, really stuck with me. And I think about it a lot. I mean, especially aging. I don't know how this. I've just been thinking a lot about this as a woman aging and being sort of public facing. And of course, I can always change my mind about this, but, you know, I haven't done

anything to my face. I'm not doing anything to my body that is sort of manipulating what's happening naturally. And it is hard. hard to do. And I just am watching myself really feel at odds with what the culture is telling me and what even people will tell me on the internet. Thank you to the man who sent me the said he's really worried, worried about the aging in my face. I'm like, bro, get in line, man. Me too. But like, it's hard to just be with what actually is. So it's when it's like the medication thing comes up for me where I'm like, if I'm trying to be with what actually is here, why do I allow

myself help in this regard? You know, it's a thing I toss, I, you know, I chew on in my mind. I mean, I'm not putting down my medication anytime soon. I just think about it, you know. But I'm not doing Botogs or I'm not doing no judgment on that. I just, this is something that I'm trying for my, for my life, trying this thing for my life. seeing how it's working out. I'm reading an autobiography of the Buddha right now. And if I think about his work and his life, it wasn't an autobiography. Obviously, he wouldn't write anything.

It was just a biography of the Buddha, my bad. Yeah, that would be quite a find. I was like, the Buddha read a book about himself. I love this. Yes. Yes, it's called, it's basically, Bell Burden's book, but a little bit different. He was taking a firm bit of action in the world. He wasn't like sitting back and not, you know, he, he built this huge body of nuns and monks and promulgated this massive set of teachings and was, you know, trying to intervene and stop wars before they happen. Like, acceptance in a Buddhist concept is like seeing things. as they are. Yeah. But then this next step is you do whatever you can out of compassion to be

useful. And so you can see my mind and my nervous system are totally tweaked. And it's a compassionate thing for me and by extension the world to treat it. Similarly, you know, with your, with me with my face, I'm also, you know, not as well known as you are, but my face is on television and on social media and I have to see it. I haven't done anything either, but like I wouldn't rule it out, not in a desperate attempt to pretend impermanence doesn't apply to me,

but I think more in that if there's small things I could do to make myself feel better, so I'm less self-conscious and more useful to other people, I would be open to that. I love the compassion piece about it, and I think it just applies differently for everything. I like that's so personal about where, is it compassionate to yourself or to others to imagine

what it looks like to just age naturally? Or is it compassionate to yourself or others to be like, yeah, let's use the tools that are available to free up some brain space? Totally. I really, I think it's so, it's so personal. You said something about the song arriving. as a transmission, like wind is the weather. And I think there's another song on the record that's called Say Leave. How do you understand receiving a transmission in that way?

So my philosophy, I know a lot of artists share this, is that, you know, the music is not mine. It just is sort of, it's in the ether and it's looking for the portal. And it comes through. So these ideas and these stories and these muses per se are kind of floating around. And like my job as a songwriter is kind of to try to clear the channel so I can be available to what comes through. And yeah, say leave was another one of those, which this record has an inordinate amount of these kinds. This is not how I usually write music.

It usually feels a little bit more mine. But Sayleave is, it's someone else's story. It is not my story, but it just came through. And I wrote it upstate in my little house up there. And that place has so many, there's just so much kind of spiritual information up there for me. It's a really sacred place to me. And I just felt this story. kind of arrive. And I did have a friend who was going through a breakup at the time. And so I wonder if

it's a little bit her story in the ether that was coming through me. But no, it's not mine. But it's, I think it's a beautiful kind of letting go. So there's something in letting go that allows you then to receive something new. And that's the, and that could be a, like a full, a song that arrives, maybe fully formed. I think there's, it's really interesting to play with. like what can kind of feel like the danger, like the edge, the growth edge, the dangerous part where you really don't quite know what it is. I feel like Ben Fold said this to me a long time ago. That was a really, it stuck with me about when you're in the writing process to kick the editor out of the room to make sure that you're not sort of watching yourself create. Like just let that

playful, it's like our most intuitive selves, our child selves, know how to, a play. We just, we know how to do that. But as adults, we put so many rules and walls up. And I just think the more we can be in the mystery of what creation actually is, making something from nothing is so awesome to let it be as mysterious as I think it actually is, which just felt really cool. And also, I find it very helpful to put down the idea of taking ownership over anything. Like, it's not mine. It's not for me. It's, it's for everybody. It's, that makes a lot of sense to me when I think about what music actually does to the world and to people to me. And I much prefer that. I mean, I really want people to clap for me. Don't get me wrong. Don't get it twisted. But I'm happy to acknowledge that, like, the wisdom is, like, somewhere else. Like, what comes through is, like, not entirely mine.

Now that we're on the subject of mystery and mysticism, there's also a song on here about your relationship to the divine, I think. It's called a love story. Yeah. Where are you and God? God is my homie. God's your homie, yeah. God's my homie. That song actually feels like Andrea's song.

So I wrote that song in Colorado. I had gone out to a fertility clinic in Colorado that everyone said when I couldn't get pregnant after years of not getting pregnant. Everyone's like, you have to go to this clinic. It's the Mecca. It's the place where people who can't get pregnant. They get pregnant when they go there. Okay. I'll go anywhere.

So I'm in Colorado, which is where Andrea and their wife, Meg, lived. And I was there for an area. egg retrieval, that ended up being unsuccessful. But in waiting for the days prior to the egg retrieval, my friend Edie Carey was going to Andrea's show at the Paramount Theater in Denver. And so I was like, well, I'm here. I'll go see Andrea. Tegnatar's opening. I love Tick's comedy. Let's go see this show. And while I was at the show, I saw Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach down in the front. And I had done their podcast before. And I sent Glenn in an email. And I was like, I think we're both here randomly in Denver watching. Like, what are you doing here? We spoke and I told them what was going on.

They're close with Andrea. They were a part of this documentary that ended up being about Andrew's life and they were so sweet about the fertility issues and then they invited me to be a part of the film and that film experience was so transformative for me. So the song I wrote the day of my egg retrieval, which was not successful, but I had just seen Andrea on stage and I felt so full of Andrea and the cadence of their language and Andrea talks a lot about you know, God or the universe. And when I say God, I think I really mean life force. I think, I think, yes, there's something about like the mystery. I don't believe in the bearded man, of course. But I do believe that there are, there is a kind of life force that is bigger and has better

answers than I do. I really have a lot of faith in that. So this, that song was written after seeing the show and running into this man on a walking path who told me about losing his wife. And I just was overwhelmed with grief and just like how connected it was that I felt like if the whole reason I went to Colorado was to be a sign for this man that his wife, who passed away was going to take care of him in the afterlife, then so be it. You know, the surrender that that came from and the comfort that comes from the idea that like we might not have all the answers or all the perspective at any given moment. I mean, I was devastated. I went through this procedure and we didn't get anything. And the worst part being that like no one told me that it might

not ever be an egg. It turned out it was just a sack of fluid in my ovary. It wasn't even an actual egg that was growing. And I didn't even know that was a possibility. So I had been there for weeks for this one, what I thought was a follicle with an egg. And then there was not even an egg. And I was devastated. But then I got this song out of it. And I got this experience with Andrea and Meg and Tig and Glennon and Abby and like on and on and on and like a life-changing experience. being a part of that film. So I'm just like, I don't know, I have a lot of faith in the wisdom. That's not mine. I'm curiously, how's it going with the fertility stuff? I'm taking a break. I had a miscarriage earlier this year. The good news being that I got pregnant

and I had never been pregnant before. And boy, did I love it. I loved feeling pregnant. I loved it. I loved it. And I'm going to tell you, it was, what I really feel is relief because I have also felt so saturated by this creative output. I mean, in addition to what I'm doing with the record and the movie, I also have a new musical that we've been in. It's launching at the end of this year. I'm going on tour. It's just a really, really intense time creatively. And I don't know how I would manage if I was also I would probably have canceled my tour is what I probably would have done. And so I feel grateful that I don't have to be in that kind of in the tension between artist and mother.

But yeah, we'll try again. We tried. We had a little embryo that didn't take, but it was a huge amount of learning that happened. And I felt really, I really celebrated that I could get pregnant at all because that's the first time that's happened. So, hey, man, I'm in the messy middle. I don't know what's going to happen, but we'll try again. But I'm on a break now, and I'm not mad to be off those meds. The hormones are fucking awful. I know we've talked about this, you know, but we had very, we had a lot of infertility struggles in our family, including a miscarriage and IVF and all the many of the things you were going through. And we were essentially told it wasn't, we were never going to have a kid.

And now I have a giant Aryan child marching around the house with a mouth full of braces and mouthing off to me. So. Congratulations. Yeah. I don't know if that's the right term some days. Yeah. But yes, I mean, it really, yeah, if you feel like persevering, yeah, amazing things can happen.

Again, I mean, it feels like there's a theme there. around just like there is a kind of mystery to all of this. There is like a kind of surrender and a mystery like acceptance is different than resignation, you know, there's a kind, there is a sort of beautiful path through acceptance of what is maybe not so easy. I mean, for me with fertility, and I know I've shared with this with you personally, but, you know, it was humbling to be someone. I, I, I really, like, me and life get along pretty well. It's not that I don't, I work my ass off, but, like, I've never been someone who was, who felt like, nothing ever works out for me.

Like, that's just not my philosophy. I've always had a lot of glass half full kind of just perspective. And it was really humbling to be really trying. I mean, it still is where I'm like, I'm really trying and it's not working. Or it's working on some level that I don't understand yet, you know, but it's really humbling. And I think there's beauty in that too, even though it's not particularly comfortable. I mean, that seems to be the through line of this whole conversation and of this body of work that you're in the middle of on the cusp of releasing into the world. And by the time this post, you will have released into the world, is like an awareness and an embrace of the poignancy of this whole being alive thing.

The point is to just, I don't even want to say appreciate, but to just be awake to the richness of it. It's just so astoundingly complex and varied and strange and mysterious. It's just like how, and there's so much beauty in that, in the mystery. If you're open to it and if you're not, you know, just walking through life, or sleepwalking through life, you know, in denial and distraction. And I think that's the fundamental brave choice that you've made, which is you're not doing that, or most of the time. You've been a huge, huge part of why I can say that I'm more awake than I was before.

And I really have to thank you, just as a teacher, as a friend, and as someone who curates spaces that really cultivate a kind of interest in people seeking a different way to move through the world. You have been so instrumental and so helpful in making my quality of life what it is. So thanks, Dan Harris. It's my pleasure, Sarah Burrellas. And really, it's like, it kind of, what you're saying that, which I really appreciate, I was just thinking a little bit about the porousness of the line between service and self-interest. I do a lot of work that I hope is helpful to other people. But in doing that work, it's very beneficial to me and in enjoyable and I assume I'm just this is an assumption you'll correct me if I'm wrong that you feel the same way about your art joyful narcissism yes yes yeah something like that yeah yeah I used to feel really conflicted about the fact that I was doing this work meditation Buddhism happiness whatever you want to call whatever

it is I do. And that there was self-interest in there. You know, like it pays my bills and I like people clapping for me and all of that stuff. And my executive coach, Jerry Colonna, is very wise guy, said something to the effect of, no, no, you can think of it all as like an exchange of love. Like you are doing work. And I think this applies, I think this applies to what you're doing. You're making content out of love.

and then you get love and return in the form of like the ability to pay your mortgage and the dopamine from applause and then that allows you to do more work and up you go. I think that's right. Yeah, that it's also that return is energizing not all the time, but so often it's energizing and it makes you want, yeah, to be, it's like a loving feedback loop. I think that's good. One more song I want to ask you about before I let you go. And this was one of the songs that you played.

You were just so viewers and listeners know Sarah's friends with my wife, Bianca Harris, and Sarah and Bianca and a few other women organized a little day-long retreat at our house in the winter. And Sharon Salzberg, the great meditation teacher, was part of it. And I was The Gopher, I think Fetching You Get a... guys food and you made an incredible fire yes i made a fire and then i was told to get the fuck out um but i there was one period toward the end where i was allowed to stay for a brief period of time and you played us a few songs on this new record one of them was heartland which i think maybe my favorite song on the record and it's about america it's about america and um yeah i was just curious to

hear you hold forth on the work i think one of the things that i have not really known how, or I guess where to put is my grief of country. And I think it's something that so many people I know in love are also grappling with. And I don't know if we've been calling it what I think it actually is. It's just like grief. It's like it's not what I thought it was. And I really believe that it's important to not sort of surrender. the idea of patriotism and that you can love this country and also know that it is deeply flawed. So the song is sort of written from the perspective of the Statue of Liberty and the Constitution. I sort of personified those talisman to, I don't know, just talk about the ideals that this place is founded upon.

Yes, deeply flawed, obviously. not inclusive from the get. But the things that we are reaching toward, I think, are still beautiful ideas. And it makes me sad that love of country feels co-opted by people who I find to seemingly be so cruel, exclusive and so narrow-minded about what makes America whatever. So, yeah, I've just felt so sad. I've felt so sad about what we've seen transpire, what I thought would never be possible, being possible. And there is a lot of grief in that.

So I wrote a song about it, which is literally my job, Dan. It's a great time. It's so beautiful. And, you know, as I was listening to you speak, you're talking about like people weaponizing Patriots. You know, when in fact they're hiding behind it as an excuse for cruelty or corruption and, you know, that expression, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. And like, yeah, who, who does that suit fit better on than Donald Trump? You know, the guy is using his position as president to enrich himself to like obscene extent. Obscene. All with a Make America Great hat on. Yeah, I mean, Joe and I talk about, my husband and I talk about this all the time.

I just, like, it just feels unreal. And the fog that scene, it's just, how long are these fucking presidencies? Jesus. Just like, we're not even halfway through. Are you kidding me? It's, it's a long haul. And, you know, there's probably, you know, the reckoning that we are walking through is, I don't know, do we get there without someone this horrible? I don't know. I, again, I want to sort of believe in the mystery, but it is a brutal thing to watch. And I really, and I see and appreciate so much of, you know, people coming together to work against that current.

and work against the corruption and try to build safety and community in places that need it. And it's not all bad. There's still so many good people. I think there are still so many more people working for good and not. There's just a lot of greed and corruption and power-hungry people. A million percent. And I think it's really important to hold two things in your mind at the same time as you've just pointed at. Like, yes, there are some very significant problems at 1600 Pennsylvania right now and throughout the body politic.

And there are definitely more good and amazing people and good and amazing things happening. But the algorithms that control our lives are, you know, people are profiting off of making us angry and anxious. and I think it's really helpful to keep in mind that we can be aware of the problem without lapsing into like, you know, posting in all caps and, you know, and or resignation. I mean, the distortion, the amount of distortion that happens online is just astounding. So, yeah, I am definitely someone who really keeps, or at least tries to keep my social media, experience in check and just like have your experience of the world be in the world. Like there's that beautiful quote that I don't know who said it, but it's not, I said it. No, it's not mine. Just kidding.

It's that we don't see the world as it is. We see the world as we are. And I think that the phone and these algorithms like you're saying, they are just designed to, who they're designed to destroy our idea of what the world actually is. Reinforce our priors and warp, you know, and bolster our prejudices and, you know, vilify the people who disagree with us. A hundred percent. I think it was Anais Ninn who said the quote.

That's who it is. Anais Ninn. That's right. Now I'm just showing off. I really, I love your intellect. Well done. How do you know I didn't just Google that real quick? I could have.

Because I watched your hands. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. It's like an intellectual three-card Monty. Anything, Sarah Borellis, that we should have talked about that we haven't gotten to? Oh, I think the only thing, the only other thing I want to say is that the beautiful documentary that was made about this record that I feel is really a sister piece to this record. is going to be in theaters on September 2nd. So I really highly encourage people to go check it out with their friends.

I promise it's at least a little bit funny. You might cry. You'll probably cry a little bit, but it's at least a little bit funny. And you'll get to really understand the music differently. So if you're interested in the sort of behind the scenes look, it's a pretty cool one, I think. I love documentaries about music and watching the creative process. and I just started watching this last night, and it really, like, it's so cool to watch you and your team

and your co-creators make this beautiful thing together. So I recommend it. And also, you are going out on tour. So if people want to find out when you're coming to their town, how do they do that? You can go to sarahbmusic.com, and everything you need to know is on there. Also, all about this film,

who I also want to shout out Josh Allod's. Sander, who's a friend and also a meditator and a fan of yours. And he's the director of the film. So he brought together the beautiful team and made this beautiful movie. So really grateful to him. But yeah, everything you need to know is on sarahbysmuc.com. So you don't even have to know how to spell my last name. You're welcome.

So just to restate this, the record's called Good Grief. It's out today. Documentary also called Good Grief Out. soon and the tour information. Sarah B-Musick.com. Sarah B-B-Musk.com. Thank you. I'm super proud of you and also really grateful to you for sparing the time to do this.

So thank you. So happy to do it. I'm happy to see you and I hope to see you soon. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer.

DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before you go, remember to sign up for my new app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris. You can sign up over at Danharris.com. On the app, you'll find a growing library of meditations from world class teachers. Add free access to the full expertise of our podcast guests, meaning you'll get this podcast. and no ads, exclusive live stream events, which we do weekly, sometimes twice a week, robust discussion threads to connect you with our team, with our teachers, and with one another.

There's a free 14-day trial if you want to try before you buy. Peace.