Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - The Science Of Speaking Up For Yourself | Elaine Lin Hering (Co-Hosted By Dan's Wife, Bianca!)

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

How to find your voice when you need to be heard, learn when it's smart to choose silence, and communicate better with the people who matter most.Elaine Lin Hering is a former Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School. She works with organizations and individuals to build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. She has served as the Advanced Training Director for the Harvard Mediation Program and a Managing Partner for Triad Consulting Group. She has worked with coal miners at BHP Billiton, micro-finance organizers in East Africa, mental health professionals in China, and senior leadership at the US Department of Commerce. She is the author of the forthcoming book Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully.In this episode we talk about:How we learn silence and self-editing How we often miscalculate the cost-benefit when it comes to speaking up or staying silentElaine’s four steps to learn how to speak up and find your voiceHow we can unintentionally silence others, especially those closest to us, and what to do about it  Related Episodes:How to Speak Clearly, Calmly, and Without Alienating People | Dan Clurman and Mudita NiskerHow to Call People In (Instead of Calling Them Out) | Loretta RossDo You Feel Like an Imposter? | Dr. Valerie Young (Co-Interviewed by Dan’s Wife, Bianca!)Sign up for Dan’s weekly newsletter hereFollow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTokTen Percent Happier online bookstoreSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelOur favorite playlists on: Anxiety, Sleep, Relationships, Most Popular EpisodesFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/elaine-lin-heringAdditional Resources:Download the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/installSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody, how we doing? This will likely come as no surprise to anybody who's ever listened to this show, but one thing that I really do not struggle with is using my voice. In fact, I've been told on more than one occasion that I use my voice way too much. However, I'm well aware that this is not the case for many many other people, including for my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, who is joining me today as a co-host for this interview.

Our guest is Elaine Lynn Herring, a former lecturer at Harvard Law School who now works with companies and individuals to build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management, which, brief aside, are vastly undervalued in my opinion, those skills. Elaine has a new book out called Unlearning Silence, which is about how and when to speak up, as well as how to stop silencing other people, which I have actually struggled with quite a bit, and unlearning that has been hugely helpful to me.

In this conversation, we talk about how we learn silencing and self-editing, what the health consequences can be, how we often miscalculate the costs and benefits of speaking up, Elaine's four steps for how to learn to use your voice, the times when it actually makes sense to stay silent, and how we can unintentionally silence other people, even people we love. And Bianca and I talk about our own experiences

with this dynamic in our own marriage. We'll get started with Elaine Lynn Herring right after this. But first some BSP. As you've heard me say before, the hardest part of personal growth, self-improvement, spiritual development, whatever you want to call it, the hardest part is forgetting. You listen to a great podcast, you read a great book, you go to a great talk, whatever it is, and the message is electrifying. But then you get sucked back into your daily routines, your habitual patterns, and you forget.

So this is the problem for which I have designed my new newsletter, which we just started a few months ago, and we're just really hitting our stride. So I'd love it if you sign up. Every week I list one quote that I'm pondering right now, and then I give you two of the top takeaways from the podcast this week. It's really for both me and for you to get these messages into our molecules.

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they're offering a special deal, 40% off the subscription price until the end of May. Head over to 10% dot com slash 40 to get started. Look out Canadian listeners, this one's for you. Coho is a master card with an easy to use app that makes managing your finances easier. Coho lets you earn cash back, borrow, build your credit history, and so much more. Join over 1 million Canadians and sign up for your free trial today. Download Coho on Google or App Store today or koho.ca for more details.

Plus, for any basketball fans out there, get a $75 e-gift card for nbastore.ca when you sign up with the promo code COHO75. That's code K-O-H-O-75. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankenpern. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we're exploring the life of Cleopatra. An iconic life full of romances, sieges and tragedy. But who was the real Cleopatra?

It feels like her story has been told by others with their own agenda for centuries. But her legacy is enduring. And so we're going to dive into how her story has evolved all the way up to today. I am so excited to talk about Cleopatra, Peter. Love Cleopatra. She is an icon. She's the most famous woman in antiquity.

It's got to be up there with the most famous woman of all time. But I think there's a huge gap between how familiar people are with the idea of her compared to what they actually know about her life and character. So for Pyramids, Cleopatra and Cleopatra's Nose. Follow Legacy Now wherever you get your podcasts. Or you can binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wander E+. Elaine Lynn Herring, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Bianca Harris, welcome back to the show as well. Thank you. Pro tip Elaine, if you want this to go well, if there's any sort of dispute, I am right. Okay, we cool with that? What does Bianca think? I mean, I know the truth. So if he really needs that to be what the world thinks,

go ahead. And the truth will set you free. Exactly. No, truly a pleasure to have you here and Bianca, thanks for coming on. This is something we have thought and talked a lot about on our side in our relationship and also in just in how the world works.

So let me just start with you. I'd be curious to hear your origin story on this. Why silence? I am the youngest daughter of an immigrant family from Taiwan to the United States. I grew up in the Christian church, and so all of those things teach me to turn the other cheek, to swallow my own needs, to cater to other people, to respect and even love other people means to listen to them without pushing back. Because as someone said at the beginning of this episode, they're always right.

And so I learned a lot of silence. And then having gone to Harvard Law School, taught at Harvard Law School, doing leadership development work around negotiation, difficult conversations, feedback, noticed a pattern that even though people spend a tremendous amount of time and energy around learning those skills or teaching those skills, some people still don't negotiate or have the difficult conversations or give or receive the feedback, why is that? And what I landed upon was silence,

the silence we've learned, the silence we've benefited from and the silence that we often continue to perpetuate without realizing what we're doing. So you learned silence, but I guess I can take from your last statement that you've also learned to silence other people. I think we all do.

Silencing other people is part of the human condition. As we're moving through the world, we inevitably butt up against each other. Sometimes it is a matter of self-preservation, right? I need a boundary with you. I don't need that perspective in my life right now. So I'm going to cut you out or maybe just not reply to your text message. But it is also unintended silence, right? I think I'm being welcoming, supportive of you. You're not receiving it in that way. you feel unheard, unseen.

I don't mean to silence you, but I have. So the question is, am I realizing that it's happening and how do I make different choices going forward? So how do you define silence? And I know you as its opposite, you use the term voice. So let's do some definitions of these two concepts. I love a good definition.

So let me start with voice, because often people think it's just the words that you say in a meeting or what you say in the conversation. To me, voice is how you move through the world and the agency to decide how you're going to move through the world. Silence, you know, there's so much about silence that can be great, that is key to meditation, key to happiness. But the difference between silence that is additive or oppressive is agency. So the silence I'm talking about unlearning is when there's not enough room in the conversation, in the relationship for your needs, for your thoughts, your preferences, because it seems like it always has to be the other person's way in order to stay in the relationship, stay in the marriage, stay at the table.

So how do we create space for each other, for our differences, to really honor the dignity and humanity in each of us? What would you say are the stakes here for the listener? Why is this so important that we sort of unlearn these habits about being silenced and also silencing other people? Yeah, let's start with ourselves. Staying silent has real health impacts, right? This epidemic of loneliness,

of having your alert system on chronic high alert because you have to edit out parts of yourselves in order to be accepted. It is fundamentally about, do we get to live freely? Do we get to say what we think? Do we get to feel what we feel? Or do we have to show up as versions of ourselves that people expect rather than who we are?

The stakes in a relationship are, I may be married to you, but I may never know you. And if I never know you, how could I really love you? In an organization, it is collaboration, innovation, retention, engagement, all of these things that really impact the bottom line. But it is this unspoken force that we're not solving for because the problem has been presented as,

well, you don't feel heard? Well, just speak up more. Have more courage, Be more confident. Versus what silence might be in this ecosystem and how might we each be contributing to it. Not because we're bad people, but because we're human and we butt up against each other. Bianca, let me bring you in.

I just, knowing you as I do, I would imagine many of the things Elaine has said ring true. What's going through your head? I think everything rings true. And that makes it very difficult for me to sort of key in on one thing that, or one context in which to begin talking about it, because they're all super relevant. because they're all super relevant. And I guess my mind went to professional and personal and self-care, all of these issues come into play, especially as adults, in environments that we look to

to blame for our difficulties. Certainly for me, being in medicine, it's medicine, it's the hospital. Being in a relationship with an extremely hardworking, extremely vocal, opinionated human, that was another presentation for me. But what I really like about your approach to this and is actually the one that I've just been taking for

myself in general over the last few years and trying to understand in particular imposter syndrome for me, but just more about my neuroses, I guess, and how to improve upon things is really the origin. Because I think the environment and all the things that we want to point to are modifiers, contributors, exacerbators, but you can switch environments and still have the same silence or the same difficulty, you know, with a voice. And really taking a look at the beginning as you're doing it, I think is key.

I want to give some space here. Feel free to respond to anything here. I don't want to overly engineer this whole thing. Yeah. I feel like Bianca and I could just have a conversation. Great. Not that you're not welcome here. Right.

But take the being in a relationship. This could be a marriage, this could be a work relationship with an extremely hardworking vocal individual. We each have our own passions. We each have our own wiring. We each have our own preferences until they're squashed and being a mother often feels like your own needs take last priority. Are the kids fed? Is anyone bleeding? Why is this sticky? Where in that juggle, oh, in the client deadline or the patient, where in that juggle is there room for me, not because anyone's actively trying to silence me? I would argue in a healthy relationship, I'm not trying to silence my spouse at all. But is there room in our juggle for all the things that we need and if not, and are we acculturated to put ourselves last over time? It happens so subtly. That's the thing about silence.

It's an absence and it happens so subtly that you don't even realize it until you wake up ten years later. Who am I? And I've been walking around as a shell of the person I could be and going back to the stakes in our relationship. This whole time, they thought they knew me. They thought they loved me. They were with the best of intentions. But because I don't know what I need and no one else is asking me what I need, and the rhythms and the pace and the patterns don't ask me that either. For me, the first place is to notice it. Notice, well, what do I need? What a radical idea as we move through the world so quickly to stop and to think and to notice and then ask ourselves, do I want to share that? Do I want to share that with my spouse? Do I want to share that with my manager? Centering the agency

that you have around disclosure. That's at least a place to start to honor who we are and what we need, which usually makes us happier. Disclosure can be a very scary thing, obviously. And certainly thinking about the workplace in particular. In medicine, it is not really okay to disclose that you're not okay, or at least traditionally. Totally. And, you know, voices are silenced in all sorts of ways, but we also come in with our own silencing of ourselves and of others through our own hurt and fear.

Yeah. You know, I met Dan right at the beginning of my training as an internist, my residency component, so no one's really at their best. I truly didn't know that it was an option to not be silent in certain contexts. In other contexts, in medicine, I mean, you speak up because that is the way that you get by, but the voice that comes out is not always your own. So there was this constant pull between, am I invisible? But I'm surviving and thriving, but is that me?

And it was quite easy in some ways, even though it was also very scary for Dan and I to have different approaches to communication, both of which had downsides and both of which perhaps had upsides, to recognize that they actually did something for each of us. For me, I loved being able to hide in plain sight because I could be with Dan in public at an interesting event, just in, you know, be the less interesting of the two. And so people, you know, I could be privy to all these wonderful things and experiences and I could learn, but I wasn't necessarily the one that people were focused on.

But that only served to sort of like, you know, reinforce the need for silence. And for Dan, it just allowed him to be more Dan, which was highly desirable for Dan for a long time. And fortunately, we've both come a long way, and those differences have really started to balance out, but it can be very scary, right, to put it out there. Absolutely. Do you find that there's, and I don't know if there's any hard data on this,

that there are, you know, generally gender divides on this? Because I think Bianca and I are perhaps stereotypical in that it's easy for me to find my voice and it's easy for me to inadvertently or deliberately in my worst moments silence other people. And Bianca's the exact opposite. And I'm just wondering, is this common in your experience?

Absolutely. And I would say it's not inherently around gender. It is around acculturation in our societies around gender. What expectations do we have of women? What expectations do we have of children? Let's start there. Be seen and not heard. That is something that we often expect of our children. And to be clear, as a parent, I really sometimes

want to subscribe to that. And I think about short-term, long-term impacts. But when we talk about gender, the expectations of women either to be docile, to be supportive, to be helpful, to be caring. All silence our own needs. And over time, there's also a question of what systems are we operating in? If we look at executive leadership in corporate America, it is still dominated by white men, and that forms the norms of how we are supposed to operate. And anytime you carry a

subordinated identity that could be based on gender, race, class, education, you are more likely to be othered, more likely to be second guessed because you're different. And so to me, it is less about someone's gender specifically, so much as our societal expectations and how those expectations of those genders show up in the organizations, the teams that we're in. Let me ask this though, are there times when silence suits us, when it's actually the right move or maybe the comfortable but dysfunctional move. Absolutely. That is why chapter three of the book exists, when silence makes sense. Because to say, you always have to speak up ignores reality.

So to me, unlearning silence is not about always saying everything, the world is too noisy and complex for that. The stakes and the consequences are real, Bianca, as you mentioned in terms of disclosure as one example. So I want to honor that silence can actually be an act of self-care, setting a boundary to say, I don't want to talk about that today with you. I'm going to stay silent, but it is silence I am choosing to enact rather than I have to bite my tongue in order to stay in this relationship or stay in this friendship with you. So absolutely, silence has a utility. And I want to honor that as a matter of self care and self preservation and controlling our narrative and frankly reaping the benefits of silence, right?

That meditative pause, the pause between stimulus and response, all of that we need more of in this world. And the difference is whether you're choosing it or whether it feels like the only choice. Yeah, to put a fine point on it, it seems like there's healthy silence, like when I go in a silent meditation retreat for 10 days.

Yeah. Or also just the momentary silence that you might invoke to create some buffer between the stimuli in our lives and our blind reaction to said stimuli. So that there's healthy silence or self-protective silence that might also be healthy. And then the unhealthy silence is when you have no choice, when it's being imposed on you. Well, that's the difference of you choosing to go on a silent retreat versus you being put in solitary confinement for 10 days.

Yeah. Really different impact. What if my wife forces me to go on a silent retreat? Is that, where does that fit? How much are you choosing? I love the complexity of this. I'm going to answer it and then you can decide whether you want to keep it. His silent retreats are helpful for me too.

Where is choice? And this is where I wrestle of choice is not always that clear. Because we're married, because we're in this relationship. Am I really choosing it or am I choosing it because I want to honor you, because I defer to you, because I know in my finer moments that you might actually be able to see me more clearly than I can see myself, right? Our lives are all intertwined.

And the best that we can do is be aware and intentional about our choices and then also the impacts. Are we having those conversations, Bianca, of what was the impact of being the more silent person at that interesting conversation? Did it serve you in the moment? Did it work for you in the moment? And also, it could have worked then, but it might not work now. And as long as we can have that dialogue, we avoid the negative impacts of silence, of suffering in silence, or silence exasperating, intensifying existing suffering. Where are you at with this now, Bianca, in terms of silence as a choice or silence as something where you feel it's imposed on you?

Well, I was, I don't know if this answers that directly, but it made me think about you writing books. And right now we're reviewing one of Dan's upcoming manuscript, which is quite personal and private as I feel, conversation with standing i'm very happy to be open about things that will be helpful for people but in that process you know we have a lot of things to run through. Regarding experiences we've had and feelings that we have and so. have. And so one of the things we were speaking about recently was a decision that I had made, which I guess silenced Dan, although we didn't put it that way in our conversation when we were going through IVF a long time ago. And Dan was super busy with his work and I was very supportive and very happy. And both as a doctor and as somebody who didn't want to need, I

basically gave him a pass on some of the bigger procedures associated with IVF. And he had said, no, but I want to come. I don't have to do that shoot. And I said, no, no, no, I'm fine. And I wasn't fine. And I silenced myself because that was one of the times where I knew I wasn't fine. And I still didn't say anything because I had made the choice for him. And I would think I was too scared for him to begrudgingly come along when he had other things he might want to do. But that was incredibly unfair to him because he wanted to be there. So it's interesting to sort of look back on that now. There are many times where as the silent one, I actually silenced Dan out of fear, I think, and that didn't allow his strengths and support to follow through in a way that

he actually might have known more what I needed then than I did. So that's an interesting twist for me. Absolutely. And Dan, I heard the characterization from Bianca of him coming begrudgingly. That feels like a storyline from where you sit, Bianca. I don't know if that's how it felt, Dan. Oh, 100%. That's me. Yeah, I think I hear what Bianca is saying as a storyline in her

head, not as a characterization of how I felt about it. Yeah, to me, that is so often what we do, though, right? We edit before we even have the conversation with the other person. Yeah. And at some level, it's easier, because then I'm writing the script to this movie. movie. And I actually don't have to allow for the unexpected. I don't have to allow for their personal growth. It's more rigid. It's not necessarily more healthy, but there's a comfort in knowing and having that control. I love that you're having these conversations though and able to look backwards because that to me is the journey.

How did we silence one another? How did we impact one another? How might we move forward in a different way that honors both of us better? That's the beauty of voice and our life together with that intentionality. So often when people say, oh, I silenced right, there's self-flagellation, there's guilt, there's shame. To me, there doesn't have to be. If that's not how you wanted to show up, the question is, what can you do differently? But we can't figure out what to do differently if we don't talk about it. Coming up, Elaine Lynn Herring talks about if and when it is ever

appropriate to silence other people Why it's important to try to unpack your own origin story when it comes to Your own patterns of silence and how running small experiments in your daily life can be a great first step here When it comes to learning how to speak up Have you ever felt like escaping to your own desert island? Well that's exactly what Jane, Phil and their three kids did when they traded their English home for a tropical island they bought online. But paradise has its secrets and family life is about to take a terrifying turn.

You don't fire at people in that area without some kind of consequence. And he says, yes ma'am, he's dead. There's pure cold-blooded terror running through me. From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine and this is The Price of Paradise, the real life story of an island dream that ends in kidnap, corruption and murder. Follow the Price of Paradise wherever you get your podcasts or binge the entire season right now on Wondry Plus. Alice and Matt here from British Scandal. Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there?

Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humour. If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal, the show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We've looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king, no one is safe. And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job anytime soon. Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. Before we get back to the show, a quick reminder, in honor of World Meditation Week, we're offering 40% off a subscription to the 10% Happier app.

Head over to 10% dot com slash 40, that's 10% spelled out dot com slash 40 to get started. We talked about how sometimes it's appropriate to choose silence. Is it ever appropriate to choose to silence somebody else? Hmm. There are so many layers to that. And I would anchor to a fundamental principle of honoring everyone's human dignity. So to me, the question is, how do we optimize for voice? There's a really practical aspect of the world can't run on consensus, and we can't realistically get input from everyone. So my prescription in the book is, let's get clear on when we're consulting.

Clear on when you're actually not being consulted because the friction point is, I think I'm being consulted because people say, oh, I need to check with my wife or I need to consult my team. But if the decision's already made and then people don't feel like their voice is heard, you're actually doing more damage over time. So I'd optimize for a voice and to me, that moment isn't actively silencing people,

it's being clear on what we need and where we are in the process, which is the more respectful dignity honoring thing to do. What if somebody's being an asshole or being harmful? Isn't it appropriate in those moments, like if Donald Trump was at our dinner table saying a bunch of stupid shit, could I not silence him? Yeah, I think you absolutely could.

And because, though, it honors other people's dignity, it honors your own. To have those boundaries. And the trap that we often fall into is we don't make those rules and expectations explicit, they're implicit. So we're all looking around at each other, how's this going to go down? Versus that's not okay here. This kind of leads to the how to section of of the book, which I find really interesting. But before we move to that, I just want to make sure that there's nothing else either of you wants to say in this stage of the conversation where we're kind of describing the problem.

I don't feel silenced in this conversation. I appreciate you checking in as a matter of process. Bianca, what about you? I mean, the low-hanging fruit, the example that I brought up was an important one and a unique one because I was the one doing the silencing. I think probably where Dan thought I was gonna go, which maybe is important to address is that typically it would be the other way around.

And sometimes he would silence me with silence. And I think that's the place where you fill in that person's silence with your own faulty narrative about it. And that's the most dangerous place to me because that narrative is what clouds certainly my ability to even identify what my needs are, because then I'm in like fight or flight based on what other historic garbage is there, you know. I'm so glad you brought this up, Bian what other historic garbage is there, you know? I'm so glad you brought this up, Bianca. Oh, did I cut you off? I mean, that was really actually quite timely, so that was good.

Appropriate. No, but I don't want to cut you off. So I got excited. No, I know. You're much better. I'm really glad you brought that up because you and I had a conversation the other day that might be worth referencing here, which is that we talked about how one of my dysfunctional go-to's when we've had conflict historically is to just

withdraw, stonewall, you know, there was that great t-shirt, I don't get angry, I get distant. And I've never felt good about that as a tactic. And you pointed out that actually it might be a trauma response that, you know, in what we know about trauma and I know very little, but one of the actually adaptive things that we do in the face of traumatic events is dissociate. So we learn to dissociate when we're really, really, really uncomfortable. And that may be what I'm doing in some of these conversations. And so that's just another aspect of silencing myself, but also silencing you in the process. I don't know if any of this is making any sense.

That completely tracks the research, right? Silence as a trauma response, as a secondary response. Our work as grownups, as adults, is to interrogate, what am I doing right now? Can you name that I am disassociating, that I am detaching? Do you realize that that is something from the past, that there's an origin story behind it, so that the people around you can better understand the response as well. And understand it in that context, fill in the narrative in a more accurate way, which is, oh, this is Dan, working through Dan, it's not actually about me.

Yeah. And I was able to turn down that voice in my head, the negative one. We've been together almost 17 years, I guess, and it took probably half of that time to really be able to, I think, want to investigate. And through the investigation, something came up from Dan's adolescence that the sort of light bulb went off, that the essence of this experience that he had actually was underlying the response that he would have to me in a number of different circumstances, which is not to say that I wasn't accountable and it wasn't also about us, but for the first time, it just sort of silenced the default that it was me, which sometimes is very inconvenient for Dan. But we actually have, we both have a lot of fun and interest in talking about these things.

And I feel very grateful again that, yeah, that we're both exploring it and have a reason to talk about these things without being in the midst of conflict. Maybe it's worth just very briefly putting some meat on the bone when you reference that adolescent incident Bianca Should I should I just quickly describe it? Totally your call. Yeah, so this is very painful and embarrassing but when I was in sixth grade I was involved in bullying and

there were a bunch of us doing it, but I was the one who got in trouble for it and there was an like an avalanche of shame and blame that ensued. And what kind of did my head a little bit was that some of it was absolutely correct. I had bullied this kid, but there was also some unfairness in it and some accusations that weren't exactly correct and many other people who weren't getting in trouble. And yeah, it was very hard for me. And I never, ever unpacked it or discussed it ever.

And it came up in a couples counseling session with Bianca and which I said, you know, I think I've realized that when somebody criticizes me, I read it as I'm a horrible person because that's the story I arrived at when I got busted for bullying this kid. And I told that story in a couple's counseling session and Bianca turned to me and said, that explains every fight we've ever had. Yeah. Are we way off topic on the subject of silence or is this all tracking and resonating and landing for you?

So what you just described, right, not talking about that incident for years, silencing it to yourself. Yeah. And you think about every fight you ever had with Bianca and how that might have played out. This to me is why we need to unlearn silence. If we're not doing our own work to unpack the traumatic experiences, the painful experiences, the ways that we've been impacted by the lives that we lived. It all leaks out anyways, and not in ways that we intend, and often having unintended impacts on the people around us. So I'm so grateful that you have identified that, interrogated it, been able to put words to it, are in conversation with Bianca about it. And I know the stakes of putting something in a book,

because I just went through that process as well. And that negotiation with your spouse of how are they being characterized? How do they experience being characterized? Who gets to make the decision? Are you consulting? Are you vetoing? Those are all the things we were just talking about. My example in the book is Toilet Gate with my husband. And we went through a couple of iterations about how that vignette, that story is written, because I meant it as a lighthearted example that we would tell to our friends. And it did not land that way for him initially.

Well, can you tell the story here? Early in our marriage, early in our marriage, we were trying to figure out our patterns of who cleans the 400 square foot apartment that we lived in in San Francisco. I had been traveling for work and I got home that weekend and said, hey, we need to clean the toilet. We should clean the toilet this weekend. And he looked at me and said, I did clean it. And I didn't say anything in the moment because of my origin story, right?

You don't push back in that moment. My relationship with silence is strong. My learned silence is strong. But I thought my data points were, there are still yellow streaks on the outside of the base of the toilet. How could it be clean? And because I'm going to catastrophize a little bit, when we fast forward, if we have a toddler or a baby crawling around and they lick and explore with their mouth, that is not a clean toilet from a hygiene standpoint. How could that be a clean toilet? It took a while. I chose silence and I think in an effective way initially, because I was really dumbfounded, how could this be a clean toilet? And let me not read into, well, what does this say about you? How were you raised? Who did I marry? Sometimes we go there. And

it ended up being a helpful conversation where I said, well, when you clean the toilet, how come I still see what I code as unclean on the outside? And he said, who cleans the outside of the toilet? You just clean the part that you use. And again, there was a little bit of like, who did I marry? But the illustration is in the book for me of as we are speaking up, as we're having conversations, needing to connect the dots for each other because we don't all think in the same way. We're not all wired in the same way. We don't have access to the same information. Do I wish that by default, we had the same definition of what a clean toilet is from the start? Absolutely. It would make life so much easier. But that's actually not realistic to expect if we're all different humans,

which we are. And because it is my book, there are some statistics in there about percentage of bacteria per square inch that might just be my final word on toilet gate for now. I actually, in talking about silence and voice, I like to go deep with it and I'm into all sorts of rabbit holes around my origin story and Dan's and how it plays out in the world. But just bringing up cleaning the toilet, this is, I guess, a little more light, but also a real difficult, I think, context for women, in particular, or at least maybe one spouse, one partner,

without being gender specific, when you need something done and how you say it. And is there even a space for saying it in a way that is okay for the other person to not hear is either critical or annoying? So how do we navigate using our voice, which we think we have for like the basic things of everyday life, a lot of the time, not really speaking about deep seated wounds and needs and not come across just by virtue of asking as somebody who maybe needs too much, wants too much, or has a voice that's intolerable.

Yeah. I'd start with some fundamental principles. I would say that they're truths. And you said this earlier, Bianca, as someone who has needs, right? We often worry about being needy when having needs is actually just being human. Because as children, we were vocal, we cried. And it is in the lack of responsiveness to our cries that we lose our voice. So some of that rewiring is starting from fundamental premises of, do I have needs? Yes. Does it make you needy?

No. How might you express those needs? How might people hear them? Because that's a virtuous cycle of, if you express your needs, I can hear them. Better yet, how do I invite someone else's needs into the mix and be curious about them so we can jointly solve for them? One of my mental hacks there is classic negotiation theory, which says every party to a negotiation has a set of interests. Interests are needs, goals, hopes, and concerns. But what I forget is that I'm actually a party to the negotiation. Am I an active player in this dynamic or am I an observer?

And too often we take ourselves out of the equation to say, I'm actually not a party. But if I were to think of myself as a party to this negotiation, of course, I would have needs, goals, hopes, concerns of my own. I'm not taking up too much space. I just am a factor in this equation. And those start to change both the calculus and the perception. And then in terms of externalizing it, I would start with small experiments. The story I use in the book is I'm in a taxi after landing in Seattle and I tried to open the window to get some fresh air and it pressed the button, didn't work. I'm doing this mental calculation that maybe resonates of, well, there's only 22 minutes left on the GPS.

I guess I can suck it up for that time. Then wait, I'm a paying passenger, shouldn't I be able to get fresh air in the back of this cab? Okay, we're on a pretty congested freeway, so the likelihood of the driver getting mad at me and throwing me into a ditch is pretty small. And then finally opening my mouth and saying, hey, can you open the window? And the driver didn't say anything back, he just pressed a button and the window opened and it was like the freshest air, the most crisp air I've ever breathed in my life.

But given my wiring, my history over time, that was a small experiment that to me was pretty low risk. I'm never going to see the guy again, probably be okay, probably not going to be physically harmed. Can we experiment in a way that gets us more data points that show us it is okay to ask. And can we each as a way of wanting to care for lead people well, inquire as to what do you need? How can I support you today rather than assuming or rather than failing to calculate that that person might also be a party to the equation or the negotiation and therefore has a set of needs. Coming up, Elaine talks about the importance of people in our lives who can act as sounding boards, how we often misjudge the cost benefit analysis when it comes to speaking up versus

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exclusively on Amazon Music, or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple podcasts or the Wondry app. by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple podcasts or the Wondry app. So now we've moved into the, what do you do about this part of the conversation? And in the book, you explicitly recommend what you just talked about there, which is running experiments as a way to figure out how to use this voice that may have been stifled for, for much of our lifetimes.

Another thing you talk about is using sounding boards. What does that mean? Yeah, too often I think we go to people and we don't necessarily know what we're asking of them. And a sounding board, if you think about it from a pulpit, is actually literally the board that bounces back the sound that goes and reflects back. So a sounding board is like holding up a mirror. They're not necessarily there to tell you what you think or what you should do, but to reflect back to you. What are you hearing? And the power of that is it's really hard when you're in it. It's really hard when you're in it to see the dynamic clearly because of all of the things of our own story, because of powers often invisible to those who have it. But a sounding board is a place where

you can throw spaghetti in the wall, see what lands, see what it's like to come out of your mouth. see what lands, see what it's like to come out of your mouth. In my work coaching people to ask to make requests, to negotiate, there's often a difference between the fear-laden version of, oh my gosh, what would it sound like if I were to ask Dan for this versus practice it, try it on for size. And the sounding board is a place where you can try it on for size, on for size. And the sounding board is a place where you can try it on for size, therefore getting the embodied experience of, oh, that wasn't so bad, I can't actually say those words. Or the sounding board saying, I have no idea what you're asking for, right? Because of mitigated speech, I don't understand what you're saying, so I'm not sure the other person's going to get it either. What do we need to do? Let's do take two.

How do we calculate the cost benefit of speaking up? I know this is something you address in the book. I think there's something called the, is it in Amy Edmondson who's been on the show, who's also a Harvard professor, talks about the voice risk analysis or something like that, voice cost? Yeah, Amy Edmondson terms it the voice risk analysis or something like that, voice cost. Yeah. Amy Edmonds in terms of the voice silence calculation.

And a flippant response to your question of how do we calculate cost and benefit to speaking up is poorly. We often as human beings over index on the short term costs to ourselves. Like I have to deal with discomfort of how they might react, or I have to pick up the phone and even call a sounding board. I don't have time for that right now. We over-index on the short-term costs and we under-index on the long-term costs of if I don't have this conversation now, what's going to happen in five days, in five months, in five years? What's the long-term impact?" Now Amy Ebbenson's voice silence calculation makes the observation that part of why that

calculation is tricky is because the costs of speaking up are usually incurred by me, and the benefits of speaking up are reaped by the group or by everyone. The costs to me are pretty guaranteed. I feel the palms, the sweat in my palms right now. I feel my heartbeat going faster. And the benefits of speaking up are not necessarily guaranteed. In fact, I could incur more costs. So for me, the question is, how do we make that calculation more accurately?

And there are two biases that I discuss in the book for us to watch out for. One is that present bias, right? What happens in the short term versus what happens in the long term? We tend to be short term thinkers. And then the other is the self bias, which is focusing much more on what I think in the moment than the self bias, where I'm thinking much more about me than most everyone else is related to the spotlight effect. So how do those biases operate? And it sounds like they operate in unhelpful ways when we're running the cost-benefit analysis.

Totally. So I would say notice them, be aware of them, because then you can ask yourself not just what are the costs of speaking up in the moment, but what are the costs over time if I don't? And also asking what are the benefits? You know, we're talking about the benefits of staying silent, that it is familiar, that we can preserve the peace, but what are the potential benefits of speaking up as well?

That things might change, that we might have greater intimacy, that I might actually be known, that my needs might be met in a different way. So by noticing the patterns of human nature and the biases and the traps that we fall into, we can then solve for them and do a more accurate calculation. So let me see if I can do a concrete example, notwithstanding the fact that I think I've

been pretty much correctly portrayed as somebody who finds his voice easy to access and can be a bit of a barbarian on that front. There is one area where I really do struggle which is giving people clearing candid feedback and i've gotten that feedback consistently that that is not one of my strong suits and. Something i've thought about a lot and so there's actually somebody in my life is a friend asking for a favor that is actually inappropriate. And so i could imagine and i've had these thoughts well, maybe the easiest thing to do is just, fuck it, just say yes to this thing even though I don't want to do it. That's the present bias. I'll just get it over with.

Whereas actually, I'll be living with the consequences of this guess for a while. That bias is skewing in an unhelpful way my decision-making matrix. And the second bias you mentioned is the self-bias where I'm telling myself a whole story about how if I speak up for myself in this case, the other person is not going to like me when in fact there are probably a million other things going on than his opinion of me. Yeah. And then to factor into that analysis, what's the benefit of you saying something to your friend?

What's the potential benefit? Well, there are a bunch of complex ramifications that are inappropriate to discuss right now that would be positive. Negative if I don't speak up and positive if I do in terms of the actual situation, the favor and the tendrils that come out of it. But also actually there's potentially a positive

in our relationship, which is, I find that when I do gin up the gumption to give clear candid feedback, that it is generally good for the relationship. I love that you said gin up the gumption because gumption is a little bit like courage or confidence, right? And all of those things are necessary. I'd say courage is necessary, but not sufficient. The other lever that we have in our relationships to increase the

likelihood that people give us the tough love or the candid feedback is to change the calculation for them. If I knew that when I spoke up, you would hear me, it would be well received. You might even appreciate me or reward me. How much more likely then would I be to speak up? And I'd argue that we each have the power to change the calculation for each other by changing the way we show up, right? Choosing not to be defensive in the moment, to actively invite the feedback to say, also, here's the way that you can get through to me best. I actually process best by reading or texting rather

than real-time verbal. If so, you know the way to best get through to me typically makes it easier for you to actually share what you think. Yes. So now I think we've moved the conversation from how do you find your own voice to how do you encourage other people to find their voice? And you talked about how if you can incentivize people by giving them a hit of dopamine every time they speak up, then you are really gonna help them find their voice. And also I've found in my own experience, the more I can, back to Amy Edmondson,

create what she calls psychological safety on my team, where I of course have a lot of power. If I can use my power to reward people publicly for telling me things that I don't wanna hear, that is not only good for the team, but it's good for me. Yes. Now, I don't want to pretend I'm perfect at this. I'm sure I continue to be scary in lots of ways that I don't have full visibility into,

but I have found that this is a virtuous cycle if I can set it in motion. Yeah. And I would call that your building a culture of voice because the narrative over time is, oh, it's okay to say things to Dan. In fact, it's good. Right? And there are enough data points for other people who might be skeptical of that or come from different life histories, different work teams where it wasn't okay to do that to say, okay, I can point to concrete examples of when other people did it and they're still here. In fact, they're even better respected

and I might be able to do it too. It becomes the norm. It becomes the culture of voice rather than the culture of silence. Bianca, what do you got? What's going through your head? I was hanging on to your comment about how you process things better by reading and writing.

And I can relate to that, not just because I have some fear, I'm just not as well practiced in sort of the face-to-face component of things, although I'm getting better, but because I actually do feel like I express myself better that way, except that I'm not sure that everybody does. And on the receiving end of it, I worry that, except that I'm not sure that everybody does. And on the receiving end of it, I worry that, A, things can always get misinterpreted somehow. Things are super clear to you and just come across as like gobbledygook on the other side.

And also, you know, it could be the total opposite for that other person. And how much do you worry about that over what works for you? So that dance is very challenging to me. And sometimes I use it against myself because I just say, well, are you just not sort of courageous enough to zoom with someone?

I mean, I don't even zoom my therapist, like we talk on the phone, that's just me. But I guess knowing your audience and knowing who you're speaking with matters. But you seem to be very confident that that's what works for you. And I guess I'm just wondering, do you feel differently about your voice if you're not doing it the way that works best for you? I do, because I've tried it the other way. I'm a pretty good imitation of some other people.

This gets back to dominant paradigms as well, where in the workplace in corporate America, the mode of communication that is prized is real-time communication in three succinct bullet points with enough emotion to show that you care, but not enough emotion that you might lose credibility, particularly if you present as female versus a slack message that is well documented, could be three to seven bullet points with a lot of detail. Why do we prioritize one mode of communication over others? What are we collectively, going Dan back to your question of what's at stake, what are we collectively missing out on? If we cannot hear people who communicate more effectively and play to their strengths

in a different way, it's taken trial and error and it has taken pushing back on how the dynamic is normally framed, which is to say that if you don't communicate in real time in that way, that's a source of weakness. That's a deficit that you need to work on versus we're all wired differently. We're not even getting into neurodiversity there, but we're all wired differently. So of course we would have different strengths and communicate in different ways. And the question is, how do we design our communication flows to optimize for voice? Which means if Bianca, if your preference and it is easier for you to be candid, particularly in therapy, candid by talking on the phone and not having to worry about pixelation on

video, why shouldn't it be not only okay, but advantageous to talk on the phone? And to me, it's not one way or the other. It's can we actively have that conversation? So when you're talking about communicating with a friend and is this version going to work for them? What's the impact on them? To me, that's actually the conversation. The example I use in the book is that a friend of mine prefers audio notes, voice memos in texting. That works well for her because she's breastfeeding right now and her baby sleeps through noises. So she'll leave me the voice message and I listen to it and pick it up. I am usually sneak texting in the line at the grocery store or while playing Legos with

my son, and so I can't record that voice memo. I also can't listen to it. But if I can sneak text back with my two thumbs and she's willing to receive it in typed format rather than audio format, and both of us accepting, right? You don't have to communicate to me in the way that is easiest for me to communicate to you, but I can hear you in that way. That's actually what has kept our friendship going versus the requirement of in order to be in a relationship with me, you need to communicate with me in exactly the way that I prefer, which may not be realistic for your life stage or play to your strength in terms of wiring. And we're creating an additional barrier to communication, which is also an additional

barrier to intimacy or effective collaboration. It's making me think of Jerry Colonna, who's a great executive coach who I work with personally, and Bianca knows him as well. He talks about giving everybody in your orbit an operator's manual for you. And I think that sounds like a nice component of a healthy culture. And it could be the workplace or the home or a friendship or anything. Yeah. And the benefit of the operating manual is that it's not a directive.

It's not a prerequisite to interacting with me. It is context to better understand how I show up. The downfall I hear with the operating manual is, well, these are the terms and conditions in which you are able to engage with me, which does not open up the lines of communication. You were going to say something, Bianca? Just that the lines of communication. You were gonna say something Bianca? Just that the idea of knowing your operating manual

is a barrier for a lot of people. And if you start off in silence and without a voice, I very much support this because I think I'm in that place where I understand mine, but it's taken a long time and that in and of itself is a big ask. Totally. This is where I'd go back to experiments. You don't have to write your operating manual as gospel. You can write it as, here are my operating hypotheses. Here's what I think I know about myself. It's probably going to change because I'm human. Not because I'm unreliable or unaware, but because we continue to evolve.

So can we at least be in conversation about it? I'll update you as I discover things about myself too. I hope you'll do the same. Elaine, in the book, you have these four steps for how to speak up. I'll list them and then maybe you can unpack. The first one is start with why, the second is connect the dots, the third is make the ask clear, and then the final is embrace resistance.

Can you walk us through these? Yeah, absolutely. This was a response to people are often saying, okay, I want to speak up. I have that mindset shift of I think my voice matters. How do I actually do it? And while there are useful phrases to get you started, the reality as we've been talking about is each of our voices is going to sound different. So the words, the specific words I use are going to be different than Bianca or you might use. The anchors are intended to anchor you when the waves of self-doubt or frustration or

confusion inevitably come. And of course, because other people don't follow your script for how a conversation would go, you have something to hold on to. So start with why is, you know, Simon Sinek has done a lot on this, but why might I even want to have the conversation? Why might I want to use my voice? What is the bigger thing that matters to me more than my immediate fear or discomfort or uncertainty that would lead me to have this conversation? And this is Keegan and Leahy's research around behavior change. And if you know you your bigger why, you have a reason to keep going. Second is connect the dots and that was Toiletgate. We're inevitably going to see things differently as much as I might want to have the expectation that other people would just understand me. I am,

as I often say to my son, I am going to have to use my words and share my perspective from where I sit. My perspective is legitimate. It is also limited, which means that I can own my perspective, but connecting the dots for someone else for how I see it allows them to say, oh, I wouldn't have thought about it that way, or oh, I didn't know that, or here's what I think is missing from that. know that or here's what I think is missing from that. Third is make clear the ask because so often we want to love our spouses, we want to be supportive colleagues, but we don't actually know what people are asking of us. And so if I can articulate, you know what, Bianca, what I really need is a listening ear. Or today I need your best advice.

Then Bianca can actually show up well for me versus having the YouTube video, it's not about the nail, become our real life experiences. And fourth is embrace resistance because as much as we might hope that when we speak up, people are like, yes, I'm on board. Green light, here's your funding. We're good to go. That's not reality. But if you ever work with salespeople, you know that any engagement is considered good. Because engagement means interest of some sort. Resistance, pushback is actually information if we can unpack it. So if someone gets defensive to not be thrown off by their reaction, but to engage it and say, well, what concerns do you have? What would need to be different in order for you to be on board? Those four anchors give us things to grasp onto in this

journey and conversation that can inevitably be awkward, difficult, and full of the unexpected. How does that recipe sound to you, Dr. Harris? Yeah, I mean, I think it's very helpful to be able to succinctly bullet point them like you're doing, because this all makes sense and seems to be floating in my head somewhere, but for you to be able to pull it all together is super helpful,

to articulate the things that we think we're learning and discovering, but in fact there's like, you know, real thought and organization behind these ideas out there. I like the last part because I'm always worried about what's going to, you know, are people going to freak out? Like the friend I need to talk to, is he going to freak out and get defensive or whatever? And so just to be armed with some simple questions, remind me of the questions, but they sounded really good. I'm glad. What concerns do you have? Right? What about this doesn't land?

What would need to be true for you to say yes? It's going to differ based on the context, but essentially it's, okay, you're not on board, what's behind that? Let me understand that and by understanding that, I better understand you and we can craft a way forward. All right. Let's talk about how to stop silencing other people.

I'll list some of the concepts that you list in the book, and then maybe you can pick a few of them and talk about them. Recognizing your default, articulating the norms, providing your endorsement of how somebody else communicates, making norms and assumptions explicit, and getting out of the way. Those are some of the ideas that you list as

ways to help other people find their voice. Which of those leap out to you is worthy of unpacking here? I'm going to add one there because Dan, you said you identified and people know you as someone who doesn't struggle with using your voice. This is chapter five of the book of the ways that we silence other people. One of the ways that we silence other people. One of the ways that we silence people is fundamentally forgetting or underestimating how difficult it might be for someone else to use

their voice. If I've always been really comfortable speaking my mind and my voice has been accepted, or I just don't worry so much about pushback, then we forget that someone like me might be sitting in the back of a cab having a 20-minute conversation with herself about asking a taxi driver to open the damn window. As we're leading our teams, how might I approach it with, well, what's your relationship with science? What have you learned? How hard is this for you to know that? And that awareness even unlocks a conversation, unlocks empathy toward a different way. The one that I'll pick up on in not silencing

other people is lending your social capital. And this gets back to normalizing that it can be okay to sound different than someone else. I get this question all the time, particularly for people who are English second language speakers, right? And saying as a concerned colleague, like, you know, they're cutting her out of the meeting and it's usually gendered. They're cutting her out of the meeting. She's the most brilliant person. I don't know what to do, right? We have these private conversations where I empathize, where I say, oh, well, that really sucks or they should do differently. And I get really frustrated because that private commiseration is a nice dopamine hit.

There's connectedness, but it doesn't fundamentally change what's happening in public. And so my invitation is, how can we use each of our own social capital, particularly if I'm someone for whom using my voice or finding my voice isn't an issue? How can I lend my endorsement, right? Hey, y'all should really listen to Bianca because she has the most nuanced analysis of the situation I've ever heard. Never mind that Bianca might be English second language or might have a bunch of ums or God forbid, tear up in the conversation, right? But you are using your social capital to say, hey, listen to this person, so that you are both disrupting biases that we might have, assumptions we might have about

whether to listen to that person and lending your endorsement. That's all very helpful. I think in our closing moments here, it might be worth talking about silencing as parents. You said earlier that as a parent, Elaine, you, there are moments where you're like, yeah, I would love if this child would be seen and not heard. I certainly feel that way. So what are your thoughts about how we can create a culture of voice to use your term

in our own house without creating endless mayhem? This is an everyday negotiation. I do the same cost benefit analysis that we talked about, short term, long term. And again, this is from my lived experience of if I enforce silence right now, it might make today easier because I don't have to deal with their opinions. But what kind of human being am I really trying to raise? I want my son to have opinions, thoughts of his own, and the ability to communicate them over time, which means I am going to have to listen to some of those opinions today

to help him have the data points that say, hey, I used my voice and it actually mattered. Hey, it is okay for me to have needs because I am human. And to avoid the mayhem part, each of our voices exist next to in community with in relationship with someone else's. So the conversation we often have is what's the impact you're having on other people. And let me name that when you storm, I'm having flashbacks to this morning, when you storm around the house stomping,

it makes it really hard for me to answer your question. Can we take a deep breath together? Right? Articulating that impact rather than my perpetuating my silence of just sucking it up, of just tolerating it. And I'm still in a multi-year experiment with this sort of parenting, so let me report back in about a decade as to outcomes. But my hope is that that at least means that he's unlearning different things as a grownup than the ones that I and so many people now are unlearning around silence. Bianca, what do you got? I'm having the opposite problem with Alexander right now.

I think we've given him a voice, and this is where our personalities are like coming to clash a little bit or challenges, I should say. This morning, the usual like, get ready to go to school, did you get dressed, blah, blah, blah. 20 minutes later, he's not dressed, but I'm annoyed. I'm stern. I tell him so.

And he makes an argument that it was the first time he heard it. And what was really upsetting to him, let me speak, he said, was your tone. I didn't like your tone because you didn't give me a chance to get dressed. You just started, you know, coming in at me. I said, well, you didn't actually hear me. He's like, well, you forget stuff all the time. So you can imagine that thing playing out,

but he's very comfortable speaking his mind. And those moments are challenging to me as someone who is just getting used to their voice. And I don't have the balance. Dan is smirking because sometimes he just observes it. It's ridiculous. No, I'm smirking because Juju Chang is a great friend of ours, an amazing journalist at ABC News who I worked with for decades, has a funny expression which is, be careful who you sleep with because you'll end up raising them.

It is so true. And in advocacy of Bianca, I want to ask this question, which is, Bianca, and from the principle that we don't unlearn silence on our own, it is group work, not individual work. So we're each building a team. How can the people around you support you on this journey as you're experimenting with finding and using your voice, right? What could your son do differently? What could your spouse do differently that would support you? I don't want to put that on my son.

Maybe that's wrong, but just to table that for a minute, just with his issues. I think with Dan, one of the complexities is that it is 99 percent me in the functional routine in the household. And if he's not there, it's just what I have to contend with. Mornings are unpleasant and I'm not actually insecure about what I said being inappropriate or poorly timed. It's when Dan is there and has actually silenced himself because he's not part of the routine, and maybe a

little bit because he doesn't want to get in the fray because he doesn't have that much time and wants it to be sweet with Alexander, that he'll only really join in if I'm being fully disrespected, which I appreciate, or when it's really necessary. So I think with a witness, it would be really helpful if you could partake in the morning routine and also be on him before I have to like, you know, escalate to stern mommy. You can think about it.

Yeah, no, now I'm even more determined to stay on the other side of the house during the morning routine. No, I think it makes complete sense. They're smart little buggers, you know? Yeah, they are. Elaine, this has been great. Is there a place you were hoping to go here that we didn't get to? I think where I'd want to leave us all, and you can tell me whether we've gotten there

with the groundwork that we've laid. Where I want to leave us all is that we can make different choices going forward. That the silence we've learned that has shaped our past and influences our present doesn't have to be the habit that we perpetuate tomorrow or in the next conversation. It is hard, it is uncomfortable, it is deep work at times. It is real conversations. But to me, the benefits of intimacy, of being known, of working together instead of working around one another, make it worth it.

Well said. Bianca, any closing thoughts? Do you feel complete or do you have something else you want to add? I think she does complete me. No, I really appreciate that. The final thing I always want to ask is can you just remind everybody

of the name of your book and, you know, website, socials, anything worth plugging? Yeah. The book is Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully. I am on LinkedIn, Instagram, and have a monthly newsletter. You can find it all on elainlinherring.com. Elaine and Bianca, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Elaine and Bianca, thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks again to Elaine Lynn Herring. Don't forget to check out danharris.com if you want to sign up for my newsletter where I sum up the key learnings for me of the show each week and also make some cultural recommendations. Before I go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Lauren Smith and Tara Anderson. We get additional support from Colin Lester Fleming, Isabelle Hibbard, Caroline Keenan, and Wanbo Wu.

Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, Kevin O'Connell is our director of audio and post-production, DJ Cashmere is our managing producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.

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