Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Vulnerability: The Key to Courage | Brené Brown

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

Vulnerability is not something I ever personally considered to be a valuable skill to cultivate. That is, until I met today’s guest, Brené Brown-- who helped me understand that being vulnerable is not about weakness, nor is it about sloppy oversharing. Instead, she argues, vulnerability is about honesty, realness, risk, and courage. All qualities that are very relevant for these turbulent times in which we are living.  Brené is a speaker, author, podcaster, professor, and researcher who has spent 2 decades studying vulnerability and courage, along with shame and empathy. She’s written 5 number 1 New York Times best sellers. She’s had a special on Netflix. And she’s spoken to a lot of high-achieving people about the importance of vulnerability, from executive suites to the CIA to the Seattle Seahawks.  We recorded this conversation in 2019, during a simpler time… but her insights are evergreen. Where to find Brené Brown online:  Website: https://brenebrown.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/BreneBrown Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brenebrown Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brenebrown Excited about our upcoming New Year's Challenge? Download the Ten Percent Happier app today to get ready: https://10percenthappier.app.link/install  Full Show Notes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/brene-brown-repost See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to 10% Happier early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. From ABC, this is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, vulnerability is not something I ever personally considered to be a valuable skill to cultivate. That is, until I met today's guest, Brene Brown, who helped me understand that being vulnerable is not about weakness, nor is it about sloppy oversharing. Instead, she argues, convincingly in my view, vulnerability is about honesty, realness, risk and courage, all qualities that are hugely relevant during these turbulent times in which we're living. Brene is a speaker, author, podcaster, professor and researcher who has spent two decades studying vulnerability and courage, along with shame and empathy.

She's written five number one New York Times bestsellers. She's had a special on Netflix, and she's spoken to a lot of high-achieving people about the importance of vulnerability from executive suites to the CIA to the Seattle Seahawks. We recorded this conversation back in 2019 during a simpler time, but I promise you her insights are evergreen. While I'm on the subject of vulnerability, and before we dive into the interview with Brene, I want to mention something cool that we've been working on here at 10% Happier. After the polycephalus disaster of 2020, which we should say did have some good points for some of us, but it was difficult. After this tricky year, we are taking a counterintuitive approach to the new year. We're launching a special series of shows in which we will counter program against the subtly pernicious new year, new you narrative, which presupposes two things. One, that you need a completely new version of

yourself. And two, that this kind of transformation is even possible. So we're going to jettison the fad diets and self-loathing and explore something that may sound cheesy at first, but is actually radical and evidence-based. Self-love and self-compassion. redeemably corny or self-centered or simply impossible. I'm also aware that some of you type A people might wonder whether self-love could lead you into passivity. We're going to help you avoid all of these pitfalls. Our attitude, and I love this expression, it's nicely summed up in something a Zen teacher once told his students. Here's the quote, you are perfect as you are, and you could also use a little improvement. We'll be kicking off this New Year's series next week with a new episode featuring Queer Eye's Karamo and psychologist Chris Germer. Karamo, in case you didn't know, is a licensed clinical social worker who talks a lot

about self-compassion and self-love on the show. Chris Germer is a clinical psychologist, a lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, and the co-developer of a massively popular program called Mindful Self-Compassion. And there's more. Starting on January 4th, we're also launching a free New Year's meditation challenge in the 10% Happier app. We did this last year and I think the year before. People love this. And this year, we're going to be featuring some of our most beloved teachers, Susan Piver, Tuareg Salah, and Jeff Warren. It's a 21-day challenge. It's really going to help you take

the concepts we're exploring here on the podcast and gently pound them into your neurons. If, by the way, you have any doubt about whether meditation in the form of a challenge can work for you, listen to this feedback we got from a new user after last year's challenge. She said, and I'm quoting here, I downloaded this app shortly before a mindfulness challenge began in January. I wasn't certain meditation was for me, but I figured I'd try the challenge, which was to meditate 15 times in a 21-day period. The first few days, I did the challenge meditations, and I found the practice calming and relaxing. Then I started the basics course on the app, doing one of those meditations in addition to the challenge meditation. Not only did I meditate every day of the challenge, I have meditated every day since then. Compared to the other meditation apps out there, this one is the Rolls Royce of meditation apps. I love that.

So come join us inside the Rolls Royce of meditation apps and start the challenge on January 4th with thousands of other meditators ringing in the new year with some sanity. It is easy and it is free. Just download the 10% Happier app today, wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%.com. That's 10% all one word spelled out. And check it out. It's going to be great. All right, enough out of me. Let's dive in now with Brene Brown.

Such a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoyed watching you on Netflix. Thank you for making time for this. It's great to meet you too. So you, I was just looking at your bio and it says, I've spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. And I'm just so curious, how and why did you come to these four emotions? It actually makes perfect sense in my mind.

So I have a bachelor's, master's, and PhD in social work. And so as a social worker, like my big takeaway from the $100,000 of school loans for that experience was connection is really what matters. It is like we're neurobiologically, spiritually, physically, mentally hardwired to be in connection with each other. So I was very interested in understanding more of the of connection. Like it's such a gauzy word, right? Like what does it mean? And so when I started interviewing, and I had had some experiences around shame, some personal professional experiences around shame. Like I think I grew up in a pretty shame-based environment.

And then when I was in undergrad, I worked in residential treatment with kids that had been removed from their parents and would grow up in residential treatment until they aged out. And we had a clinical director there that used to say, you cannot shame or belittle people into changing. And the first time I heard him say it, I was like, I actually scheduled a meeting with him. I was just like a direct care person getting my bachelor's degree at the time. And he's like, what's up? And I said, you can't shame or belittle people into changing. I said, you understand that's the way the world works, right? And he kind of laughed. He said, what do you mean? I said, parents, schools, media, marketing, that's the way the world works. And he goes, maybe, but as a clinician of 30 years, you cannot shame or belittle people into meaningful lasting change. So I think I went into my social work

career kind of holding that shame thing right there. And then I got the connection, the big dose of connection through my degree. So I wanted to study what is connection? Does shame have a role? And I spent six years like really looking at that. And then at the end of that six years, I had all this data. And I was like, oh my God, I know so much about shame. But inside the data that I have already is the answer to another question, which is, there are actually people who wake up in the morning and say, I'm enough. and say, I'm enough. No matter what gets done and what is left undone,

no matter how imperfect I am, I'm enough. What do those people have in common? Because that was a very strange notion to me. I was not one of those people. And so I started looking in the same data set at, and I call them the wholehearted people because I'm an Episcopalian and there's a line in the Book of Common Prayer that says something about loving with our whole hearts. And I was like, I would describe these as people who live in love with their whole hearts.

So as I started getting into that data, what started emerging very clearly was this central variable that they shared in common was the capacity and willingness to be vulnerable. And I was like, oh, my God, this is bad news. This is awful. I wanted the answer to be they were shame researchers. Like the answer to wholeheartedness is you know a lot about shame. So then that took me to courage and vulnerability from there. So that's the long trail. What kind of change did these conclusions make in your own life?

I had like a massive breakdown, really. I did like, I literally had to put the data away because you have to lock it up under like human subjects protocol. I had to lock it up, put it away, and then go find a therapist. Up until that point in my life, I had spent my entire life trying to outrun and outsmart vulnerability. Like, I was not raised to believe that vulnerability was anything but weakness and kind of the first step to giving people something to hurt you. Like, I just, we didn't do vulnerability, like, at all. So was that a problem in your at all. So was that a problem in your personal life, in your parenting, and in your marriage? I didn't think so. I didn't think so at the time. I remember, like, this is a story that,

like, I've been thinking a lot about this story because I've never told it before, but I remember in the midst of this kind of breakdown period, you know, and I was just, I was always proving and trying to be perfect and like, wow, I'm super tight. So I was kind of the alpha parent, you know, and like people would call me and say, hey, are our daughters allowed to get their ears pierced yet? I'm like, no, one more year. And then they say, are our kids, can our kids watch this movie? I'm like, yes, but only with parental support. Like I was that, like kind of the alpha mom. Had the answers.

I had the answers, but I guess terrified on the inside all the time. And I remember, it's a funny story. I remember being at a, it was Easter Monday. Like this was Easter Monday, I don't know, 10 or 12 years ago. And being at a yogurt shop with Ellen after school. Ellen's your daughter. Ellen's my daughter. She's a sophomore in college now.

And I remember thinking, God, look at all these moms and daughters with their kids and everything's monogrammed. I should get more stuff monogrammed. And my phone rang. And I was like, should I answer it? I'm having this moment with my daughter. And I was like, should I answer it? I'm having this moment with my daughter. And I was like, hello? And there was a woman on the other end. She said, Dr. Brown? And I said, yes. And she goes, where are you? And I said, I'm in Houston. Where are you? And she goes, it's Jenny, the event coordinator. And I said, hi, Jenny. And I

thought to myself, God, these event coordinators are just like an anxious bunch of people. And she goes, no, wait, where are you? are just like an anxious bunch of people. And she goes, no, wait, where are you? And I said, I'm in Houston. And she goes, there are 2,000 people coming to see you tomorrow morning, including the governor of the state. Why? We just got a notice from the travel agent that you missed your flight. And like this is like a reoccurring nightmare for me. And so I was like, what?

And I said, my flight's on the 23rd or something at 3 o'clock. And she goes, it's the 23rd. It's 430. Oh, no. And I remember time slowed down. And I got in the car. And Ellen was in the back seat. And she's like, are you OK?

I'm like, mom made a big mistake. Mommy made a big mistake. And I was texting my husband. And I remember he came home to drive me to the airport, like left patients in the waiting room. He's a pediatrician. And he's like, you're falling apart, Brene. And I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm good. And I said, oh my God. And I started crying. He's like on the way to the airport. He goes, what's wrong? I'm like, normally when I go out of town, I make all the food in advance and I put Ellen's school clothes

up like with little clothes pins that say Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. And he goes, and I said, and there's nothing to eat in the house. I've made nothing in advance. He goes, I don't mean to kick you while you're down, but we don't really eat that crap while you're away. We basically get pizza every night and I let Ellen wear whatever she wants, you know? And I was like, and that was kind of the height of the breakdown. I was like, So – and I was like – and that was kind of the height of the breakdown. I was like, my life is unmanageable. Like things are not working. And so I stayed in therapy for a couple years and kind of tried to deal with the perfectionism.

And it was all about the vulnerability. It was all about I couldn't manage uncertainty. I couldn't manage uncertainty. So can you help me understand what you mean specifically and granularly when you say vulnerability? And then I guess the second part of that question would be how did you and how does one operationalize that? Yeah. So, the definition of vulnerability that emerged from the data is the emotion we experience during times of uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So, vulnerability is that an affect, an emotion that we feel when we feel uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed, meaning we may lose control of our emotion or we're showing an emotion and we can't perceive what people think of us because of that emotion so that's vulnerability uncertainty risk emotional exposure and i think the best way to think about operationalizing it is most of us in order to

kind of stay safe during vulnerability especially especially growing up, developed effective armor. Like how did we learn to manage uncertainty? And uncertainty is much more threatening as a child than as an adult, right? Because I mean, your survival could be at risk. Over the years, we learned to armor up and there are many different forms of armor. Perfectionism is one, cynicism is one, control is one, Power over. I mean, there's a lot of different ways we armor up against uncertainty. I'm thinking I've checked all those books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what we know now, and it was interesting because I just finished a seven-year leadership study. And as part of that leadership study, we wanted to see if we could

measure courage and vulnerability in people. So we worked with MBA and EMBA students at Wharton, at UPenn, Kellogg at Northwestern, and Jones at Rice. And we developed this instrument. It's an instrument to measure daring leadership, like how courageous of a leader are you? But the questions all relate back to vulnerability, meaning, you know, can you tolerate uncertainty or do you default to action bias? You know, can you stay in problem solving or do you just need to fix anything? Do you talk – if you have something difficult to say, do you talk to people about it or about people? You know, like – and it's really about the capacity to be in vulnerability. And I'm on the wrong side of some of those.

Me too. Me too. But I'm working on it. I'm aware of my armor and I'm aware of how it shows up and when. The problem is, and I spend a lot of time, and I mean, do work inside big companies like the Facebooks, the Googles, the CIA, Special Forces. I do a lot of leadership work. And what was really interesting is it would take me a long time to convince people that vulnerability was okay until about a year and a half ago when I was at Fort Bragg. And I just asked this simple question that came to my mind, which is, can anyone in here, all Special Forces troops, can anyone in here give me an example of courage in your life or in someone else's life that wasn't defined by uncertainty,

risk, and emotional exposure? And finally someone stood up and said, many tours, there is no courage without vulnerability. And then I thought, wow, is that a fluke? And then you could see the emotion well up in these soldiers. Then the next week, I'm with the Seattle Seahawks doing some work with Coach Carroll. Asked the same question. They took a minute. A couple minutes later, Michael Bennett said, no, there is no courage without vulnerability. Just the other day, someone sent me a picture

of LeBron James who writes the Roosevelt quote that I use to kind of as the epigraph for vulnerability and courage on his shoes. Like, if you're going to be brave, you're going to know uncertainty and risk and emotional exposure. And if you think you're being courageous and you're comfortable, you're probably not being that brave. Can you reproduce that Roosevelt quote from memory? Yeah, I can. I can. It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done it better. The credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who in the end, while he may know the triumph of high achievement, at least if he fails, he does so daring greatly.

And so just back to part of my question, well, let me start with you. When you went through the therapy and tried to make some of these changes in your own life, embracing vulnerability, how did that look when the rubber hit the road in your lived experience? What would your husband tell me if we gave him the mic? Or your kids?

My husband would say, my husband would just say thank God probably. But I'll tell you what my therapist would say. I remember – so it was an interesting time because – let's see. I'm sober. So I'll be 22 years sober in May, like in a couple weeks. Congratulations. That's a big deal. May, like in a couple weeks. Congratulations. That's a big deal. Yeah, it was a big deal.

And it was a really weird deal for me because I had a very high bottom. Like I did a genogram, which is like a family map that social workers and counselors do for my last project in my MSW program, my Master's in Social Work program. And I had to call my mom to help me figure out the family tree. And it was like, oh my God, there's so much alcoholism. And she's like, yeah, it's really bad. I mean, it was just like, I couldn't believe it. And I was like, this is awful. And then I was wild. And so I was like, this is not worth it. This is not worth it. This has ravaged my family. This is not worth it. And so I remember going to

my first AA meeting and they're like, no, you're not drunk enough to be here. And then I went to an OA meeting. They're like, no, we think you belong over at the Codependence. And I went over there and finally I got like the sponsor you're supposed to get the first week. And she's like, you've got the poo-poo platter of addictions, like a little bit of everything. And I was like, so what am I supposed to do?

And she goes, I think you should stop drinking, smoking, interfering in your family's life and eating. I was like, what's left? What's left? Yeah. And so I was newly – so part of this, I think, was brought on by – like I was really kind of working a really rigorous spiritual program at the time and having this breakdown. And I remember one day telling my therapist, her name is Diana, I said, I need you to give me something. And she's like, what do you

need? I said, I need an anti-anxiety medicine. If I'm not drinking and I'm not eating and now I'm going to try to be vulnerable, I'm losing control right now. Like I need some kind of medicine. And she goes, tell me why you think you need it. And I said said because I'm like a turtle without a shell and in the briar patch like everything is scary and hurts and every every time I move it's like I feel something terrible and she said well let's work on getting out of the briar patch and I was like huh and she goes before we give you the, which for you has been drinking or food or perfectionism or work, before I give you another shell, let's try just moving out of the briar patch. And so I think when the rubber hits the road, it was reexamining my life and just saying

no to a lot of things I was afraid to say no to. Like I can get into scarcity. Like what if, you know, what if you asked me to come on the show and I say no and then everyone stops asking? Do you know that feeling? I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. No, but you know what I mean? Like those kind of things. And like what if I don't agree to do something and then will people think I'm not grateful? And then so not disappointing people, not having? And then, so not disappointing people, not having good boundaries. And so that's what, for me, the vulnerability is there's nothing more vulnerable when you're raised with like the good girl, perfectionistic, take care of everybody,

you know, problem, that weight, to say no and set boundaries. And so I started having to set really hard boundaries with my family. I'm the oldest of four. I had to start setting boundaries at work, which I kind of suck at still, but I'm getting better. But I just had to start saying no. It's interesting because setting boundaries doesn't seem like vulnerability. Really? No, think about it. Think about you've got a parent. I'm trying to make up a scenario. You've got a parent. I'm trying to make up a scenario. You've got a parent that you love and who loves you, and you love to see your parent with your child, but your parent talks to your child in a way that you and your partner have decided not to speak to your child. So you have to say, look, here's what's okay.

I love you all together. Here's what's not okay. You can't use that language when talking to my child. Who do you think you are? You're still alive. We did pretty good. Boundaries are always vulnerable because you're going to disappoint people. Oh, it's in the setting of the boundary. Yeah, it's in the setting and it's in the holding of them and the maintaining of them. Here's what's okay. Here's what's not. I mean, as a leader. You're revealing what you care about.

Yeah, you are. And it's choosing self-respect Here's what's not. I mean, as a leader. You're revealing what you care about. Yeah, you are. And it's choosing self-respect over making other people happy. Most of us were not raised that way. Right? I might have been. Were you? Well, yeah, but I think there are downsides to it, which we can get to. Okay, yeah.

So I was raised more like be polite, make people come, you know, and so. There might be some gender stuff in here too. Oh, no question. There's all kinds of gender stuff and privilege stuff. And so I think, yeah, and there's Texas stuff in there, you know. So, yeah, so I started setting boundaries. I started saying no. I started, you know, I had to weed through some friends.

Yeah, which is hard. But what about the control? These are not my words. These are the words of your sponsor. Interfering in the lives of your family, being so wound tight, making sure that all the meals are cooked before you leave and the clothes are picked out. That continued? I let go. Oh, you leave and the clothes are picked out. That continued. I let go.

Oh, you let go. I really let go. Yeah, I let go. And I let go. I let go of the family stuff first because it just wasn't. First of all, obviously, it's not helping. And then I just started to let go. And it was excruciating.

Yeah, because, you know, that behavior where you're trying to control everything and it's like help disguised is like – it's not really help. I'm trying to manage everything for the best possible outcome for me. So I was imagining vulnerability more as – and this may be one of the myths because in in your Netflix special you talk about the, I think it's six myths of vulnerability. But I thought it was more like just like wanton sharing. No, I'm not a fan of wanton sharing. No. In fact, I think one of the big myths is vulnerability is disclosure. That's one of the six myths.

It's not. That's one of the six myths. It's not. I do think it's important to share and to build trust, but I think vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability at all. It's inappropriate sharing, oversharing, shock and awe, desperation, but it's not real vulnerability. It's like when leaders say to me, I believe what you're saying. How often should I cry? What should I disclose? And I'm like, oh, man, you may believe what I'm saying, but you don't get what I'm saying, how often should I cry? What should I disclose? And I'm like, oh, man, you may believe what I'm saying, but you don't get what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is if you want to be a leader who believes in vulnerability, like for example, a lot of times I go into companies because they're having struggles around innovation

and creativity, but they've set up these perfectionistic cultures where failure is completely punished. And so you can't expect people to innovate and create if you don't allow people to fail. Because by definition, innovation is iteration, failure, and iteration. Like that's the definition. And so it's not about personal disclosure. In fact, a lot of people use personal disclosure as armor. Like I just met you. I really like you. Like, we have some things in common. Here's my deepest, darkest secret. And what I'm really doing is testing to see if you'll still be around or confirm my thinking

that no one really cares about my struggles. You know, that's armor. So vulnerability is not that. It's about the ability to manage uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure without armor. And one of the things that was really interesting in the leadership study is my hypothesis, which was wrong, was that fear was the greatest barrier to courageous leadership. But it's not fear because the courageous leaders that we interviewed were like, I'm afraid all the time. I mean, I'm afraid all day long. The biggest barrier to courageous leadership

and courage in general is not fear, it's armor. What do we do when we feel exposed? How do we self-protect? And how do those pieces of armor keep us from growing into who we're supposed to be? But isn't the armor donned out of fear? Out of fear? Sometimes, but not always. That's not always the driver. Could it just be habit? It can be habit.

It can be control. It can be a lot of things. I think the armor, but it's not. It's, look, one of the biggest findings for me, again, raised fifth generation Texan, we grew up believing you're either brave or afraid. And what I believe is absolutely true based on, you know, just now topping 400,000 pieces of data is that you can be brave and afraid at the exact same time, at the exact same moment, and most of us are. And so it's not fear that gets in the way.

It's succumbing to needing to armor up that really gets in the way. Does that make sense? Fear is not the problem. It's giving in to the fear. It's giving in, and the result of giving in to the fear is armor. Actually, it's about kind of embracing your fear, or as you say, embracing the sun. Yeah. Last night, we did this really cool event here in New York, and a woman stood up, and

she was shaking, and she said, you know, I just finished my first book. I'm writing really honestly about addiction and parenting and my life. And she's like, I just feel like I'm screwed if it does well, because people will know more about me, and I'm screwed if it doesn't do well. And I'm just, I feel sick. And I said, congratulations. And I said, that's what courage feels like. And she goes, oh, but it's so uncomfortable.

And I said, I know. That's what brave feels like. And I said, let me ask you this. Do you feel alive? She goes, oh, yeah, I feel alive from head to toe. And I said, that's what brave feels like. And I said, let me ask you this. Do you feel alive? She goes, oh, yeah, I feel alive from head to toe. And I said, that's courage right now is comfort. That somehow we believe that we are entitled to be comfortable. And I've never done anything really meaningful in my life that was comfortable.

never done anything really meaningful in my life that was comfortable. My mother, who's kind of a trailblazing physician, advanced pretty high in the hierarchy at Harvard Medical School before there were a lot of women there. And she likes to say, you know you're out front when you have arrows in your butt. I mean, that's it. I mean, that's it. No one out front isn't beat up a little bit. I mean, and so, and what scares me, I think about, I mean, there's many, there's many reasons I'm hopeful today as a researcher kind of sitting across from people for the last couple of decades.

But I think what scares me today that's relatively new is I see an increasing number of people opting out of love because of their fear of grief, opting out of courage because of their fear of failure, opting out of belonging because of their fear of disconnection. and i think somehow it was that we've been sold a bill of goods that somehow we deserve or entitled to not hurting and no one knows how to hurt you know and so instead of feeling pain, we cause pain. You know, instead of feeling uncomfortable and just kind of writhing in it a little bit and breathing through it. That's why when, you know, like there's an interesting intersection with our work, I think. We don't know how to handle the immediacy, the physiology of vulnerability. to handle the immediacy, the physiology of vulnerability. Like, interesting, I did some work with a company, probably one of the fastest rapid growth companies in the United States right now. And I spent a day with 20 senior managers. And the minimum tenure in this room was probably 25 years.

And we did these role plays. And about half of these folks, very senior people, tapped out of the easiest role play. I brought three in increasing difficulty. Tapped out of this role play because they said it was too uncomfortable. It was a really easy role play. What did it involve? You had to tell someone on your team that the cologne or perfume that they were wearing was giving other team members headaches. And it went from that role play to a role play where I'd have to sit down from you and say, Dan, I know you've been working your butt off for the last six months, and you really wanted project lead. But the team decided to give it to someone else, and I want to be honest with you about why.

There have been some issues around reliability that have been around for two years, and no one has ever given you that feedback. People have just passed you along from team to team without ever giving you the opportunity to work on this. And I'm here to stop that. I'm here to say, we need to own that. Because so often... That was so well delivered. Oh, I have an advantage because I know the role play. But I have to do it in front of people a lot because they're like, there's no possible way to do this without being a jerk. And your point is there's vulnerability in that even though the person saying those words is the one with the power. It's the vulnerability in being honest.

Yeah, because you can be an a**hole. You could like gear up and be like, hey, you didn't get it. Work harder. Or you could be avoidant and just pass them along. And just pass them along. Right. But the vulnerability, like one of the big things I talk about in Dare to Lead, the leadership book is clear is kind. Unclear is unkind.

You know, like when we are not clear with people and we make up a million stories about, well, it hurt their feelings. It's all about our comfort. Clear is kind. Here's the thing. I believe in you. We got some work to do. I think we can do it together. I think it's going to take six months.

Here's what it looks like operationalized, just really clear. Here's what's okay. Here's what's not okay. Let's dig in. Clear, kind. But that's vulnerable. And you have no idea how many people can't do that. But it's not the stereotypical version of vulnerability,

which is what I like about it. It is real vulnerability. It's not the mythology. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I don't know. Someone asked me the question, and I don't know the answer to it on Twitter yesterday or something.

Why do you think these myths surround vulnerability? And do you think there's, you know, do you think there's a gender thing here, that vulnerability is seen, you know, as weakness? And the thing about it is that there are women who struggle with this as much as men, for sure. And I think it's about shame. Because the greatest shame trigger for men is the perceptions of weakness. And for women, it's don't be imperfect. Be perfect and take care of everyone while showing no effort.

And so vulnerability is just right in the face of both of those. Does that make sense? It does. I'm just thinking, like, is that the thing that would trigger the most shame for me? I think the thing that would trigger the most shame for me would be that I'm somehow irredeemably selfish. What do you mean?

Give me an example. Just don't care about anybody except for myself. Stuff in that area would make me feel the worst. I got some stuff around there too. It's not necessarily weakness. Well, it's a kind of weakness. It is. It's not where I think most minds would go immediately when you think of weakness.

No. Yeah. So I think that's why a lot of male leaders will say things to me like, so should I cry? And I'm like, I don't know. If you cry or cry, if you're not, don't fake cry. I mean there's nothing worse than fake vulnerability that that will bite you in the butt every time. Have you ever had a 360 review? Mm-hmm.

Okay. So I had one recently. I'm like a 41-page, 16 people anonymously interviewed for an hour, 41-page report. It was horrifying. And I went into a lot of shame immediately after reading it for an extended period of time, and I can still go back to it. This happened, I would say, nine months ago. And a couple of the things that came up, one was lack of clarity and feedback. So a kind of cowardice there around just telling people the truth in a kind way. And if I did tell them the truth, it was often in an unkind way, which was clear, but probably the signal wasn't received because there was too much. Could be heard, yeah.

Yes. The bigger one, though, the number one complaint, if memory serves serves was emotional guardedness which goes right to what you're talking about and i've wondered and i still wonder what do i do with that because i'm not a crier um and i know you're saying you're not saying go cry no but i don't know what emotional lowered emotional garden is what actually mean it's a tough question to put to you because you don't know me i don don't know you, yeah. I guess I would ask myself if I got that feedback. I guess the only thing I would ask myself, I have mixed feelings about 360s, first of all.

Oh, really? Yeah, for sure. Say more. I don't think they're the, I think a 360 review is super helpful. How they're handled and done, I don't think is really helpful. Because you mean you get the results and you're on your own? Well, you get the results and you're on your own. And I've never really sat across from anyone that's had a 360 that didn't push them into shame. And shame is usually not a catalyst for growth and change. Right. So luckily,

this 360 was done by a very skillful sort of Buddhist inflected company and there's been ongoing one-on-one coaching and very strenuous pushing away from me from shame. Yeah. So I think if I were you, like this is why the 360 is hard. I'd rather be in a culture where people can have these conversations directly in the eyes of the people that are giving the feedback. Because I would say, help me understand. I would want examples, and I'd say, help me understand what it might look like if I were less emotionally guarded. How would I show up different with you or for you? What makes it scary?

What makes my armor scary around or for you? What makes it scary? What makes my armor scary around that for you? What makes me, am I difficult to approach? Like I would ask a lot of questions because I think in those questions, that's where the real heart of change is. So I just so I just got, I, it wasn't a formal 360, but it was like more like a freaking intervention where people on my team sat me down and said, there is an emotional intensity about you when you're fired up about something, when you're really mad. It's very hard to be across from. And we're used to it, but some of the more junior people are not used to it. And we know that it's important for you to have a culture where people can speak up and disagree. If you don't do something with that, you're not going to have the culture you want.

Wow. So Brene Brown, the queen of vulnerability, couldn't run afoul of her own headline. Oh, yeah, because I would never dub myself the queen of vulnerability. I would say I'm a vulnerability researcher who's working on it every day. Yeah, that was unfair on my part. But basically I meant like the person who has popularized this concept in a way that has really gotten into the culture, perhaps the most prominently. Maybe that would be a more fair way to put it.

So I apologize for the glibness. But it's so interesting and I think very important that you're willing to say this because just because you've named something and described it and advised people effectively doesn't mean you're advertising yourself as an avatar of perfection. Oh, my God, no. I think that's why people resonate with a TED Talk and hopefully with a Netflix special, because they see me struggling. I'm honest. Steve and I have been together for 30 years, and we have two amazing kids. But I'm like, Charlie will come in and say, hey, this happened at school. And I'm trying to do like Buddhist thing from Pema Chodron where compassion is not a relationship between the wounded and the healed. It's a relationship of equals. And that compassion is knowing your darkness well enough that you can sit in the dark with others.

So I have, I use a light metaphor, a light switch metaphor with my kids where if they say something hard is going on, I try not to run and flip the switch on. I just try to sit with them in the dark and teach them how to feel that and be in that. That's really good. It's really, it's really powerful. And my husband's a pediatrician, so he like uses it a lot too. Like, cause sometimes parents will say, how do I fix it? And they're like, he'll, you know, sit with them in the dark and teach them. The biggest gift you can do is teach them how to feel the disappointment and feel their way through it, to teach them how to feel the disappointment and feel their way through it, teach them how to feel the grief. And so I'll say, you know, Charlie, and he'll be like, can you fix it? And I'm like, you know, I can't, but I can be with you in it.

And I can tell you about how I felt before when something like this has happened to me. And then he'll be like, okay, well, I think I'm going to have some alone time. And then I'll walk out and look at my husband like, you better fix this crap right now. I mean, you call those teachers and you tell them right now that I will have them arrested. I go crazy. I'm a human being. There's that emotional intensity. There's emotional intensity.

This friend of mine's daughter, somebody asked her to a homecoming dance and then called her and said i decided to take someone else i didn't know she would say yes and like they got someone better and so like the vulnerable response like the you know would be like i really hear that that's really hard it's hard to see our kids in pain but i was like oh no i know someone who knows the jonas brothers i'll have them come pick her up and then we'll show that little jerk you know like and she's like that poor kid's like 14. I'm like, oh, now I'm going to beat him up. So no, I'm just a normal person that, the only difference between me

and probably even my dad or people that were just like, don't be vulnerable, sis, it's dangerous, is I'm aware of what I'm doing. But it's still my default. How did it feel when you got that feedback from your team? I was super grateful. They're hurt?

You know, there was a twinge of, I mean, I recognize that in myself. And I recognize that in a lot of leaders that I work with, too, that emotional intensity. No, it didn't because I trust them. And I think we have this culture at work that we've worked really hard on. And so like that story, that, that, the same, the story I tell myself, we bet that we say it 20 times a day. Can you say more about that? Cause you talk about this in the special and I think it's really potentially very powerful. So can you just talk a little bit about that expression, the story I tell myself? Yeah, it was interesting.

When I was doing the research for Rising Strong, first of all, this sentence, like the story I'm making up, the story I'm telling myself has floated around in the data for over a decade, but it never really saturated. And for a qualitative researcher, I'm looking for data that saturates across,

like that I see it so much, it's predictably going to come up in everything. And so, but then when I started doing the research for Rising Strong, which is about, okay, so you're brave and vulnerable. The only guarantee is you're going to fall and no failure and just, you know, setback and disappointment. How do people get back up? Is there a way that people have found that works? So every single one of the research participants that we would really classify as highly resilient like the highest resilient use some form of this sentence and as I started digging into it it made total sense because when something difficult happens so let's just do a scenario here I work for you and you and I get out of a meeting and I look at you and I'm walking back to my office and

I'm like hey good meeting Dan and you look at me and I'm walking back to my office and I'm like, hey, good meeting, Dan. And you look at me and go, what the hell, Brene? And you just give me this terrible look and then walk in your office. Everyone I know would be triggered by that, right? And so the brain says, my job is to support you. And survival is my only thing I care about. There's no close second. What's going on?

I can, you know, tension, anxiety. It's not just like a saber tooth running after us. It's the part of our brain that's like fight, flight, parasympathetically freeze. And it still perceives vulnerability, emotional risk as threat. And so the brain, if you give the brain a story and you help the brain, you know, because we know now through pet imaging, the brain recognizes the narrative pattern of beginning, middle, and end. It explains why we've used story to teach and communicate since the beginning of time. You give the brain a story that helps it understand what's safe, what's dangerous, what's okay, what's not okay, who's after you, who's for you. You get a chemical reward.

If I can say, oh, Dan hates me. He's always hated me. He's never trusted me. He hated what I shared. He hated my presentation in that meeting. The brain will be like, okay, chemical reward. We know what's happening. We know he's not safe.

We know how to protect you. The problem is that the reward happens regardless of the accuracy of the story. And the more nebulous and gauzy the story is, the less the reward. It doesn't want something like, hey, what's up with Dan? Maybe it's not about me. No reward. So what I found is that, so I pick up the phone. I call Lauren, my colleague.

Hey, do you have a meeting with Dan today? Yeah, in an hour. Don't go. Cancel the meeting. I don't know what's going on with him. He's going nuts. I think I'm going to, you know, you may get fired today. Like how many times a day do you think that happens in offices where people start? I mean, have you ever led a team through change? I've never had anybody report to

me in my profession. You have. Okay. So like in the absence, this people can take this to the bank in the absence of data, we make up stories. Yes. I've done that a million times. Yes. Because we're right. Because we're a meaning making species. Yes. I've done that a million times. Yes. Toward my bosses. Right. Because we're a meaning-making species. Yes. The great example is you're in a hard text conversation and you get the three dots and then nothing. And then nothing. And then an hour later, still nothing. You've got a huge narrative built up about what's happening, right?

Where that person is probably just like, you know, going for their run or, you know. So I come back to you. I knock on your door. Hey, Dan, you have a second. Sure, come in. We got out of the meeting today and I said, have a good day. And you kind of looked at me like you were pissed off. The story I'm making up is something happened in that meeting that you didn't like. And I wanted to see if there's anything we need to clean up. And you look at me and go, that meeting was scheduled till 11 o'clock. We got out of there at 1230. I have Zumba at 1130 every Thursday. And I'm like, but what about the part about me? And you're like, no part about you. I mean, how often do we do this with our partners?

Do you mean like, hey, I'm just trying to think of what I would say if my partner said she had Zumba. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, like I'll say, Steve, I like, hey, I've got the, like, you know, I've got the Pediatric Society meeting tonight. You don't need to go. Oh, okay. Are you mad? I'm like, no. I mean, like, if you don't want to take me to your party, like, if, you know, if you don't like what I'm wearing, that's fine. Call a date.

Get a date. He's like, Jesus, I just am saying, like, I know you're busy. I know you're flying out tomorrow morning. And these things are so, like, I'm like, are you sure? And he's like, okay, what story are you making up for today? And I'm like, and then we do it together all the time now. But the stories that we make up, because we're making them up to self-protect. The stories we make up grab our greatest shame triggers, our biggest fears about ourselves, and just explode them in order to assure maximum protection. So whatever that shame trigger is for me, you know, like, oh, my God, there's a pediatric dinner tonight.

I don't have the right thing to wear. So you don't think I have cute clothes to wear tonight? He's like, wear your jeans. I'm wearing, I don't care. Like, you know, he wears a YVETA and jeans every day and cowboy boots to work. Like, he could care less what I wear. But I'm making up that story because I'm in a bad place because I'm packing to go to New York the next day and I have no cute outfits to wear on your podcast.

You know, like, that's how it works. And with kids, I know you have a teenager, right? I have a four-year-old, yes. He acts like a teenager. Oh, you have a four-year-old. You got a baby. Yeah. So I have a 13-year-old.

He said to his mother last night, Daddy hates you and I know because I called him and he told me. So he acts like a teenager. That's four. Yeah. But that's the beginning of the, what's the pecking order of love here? I was like, wow, his game is strong. His game is strong.

Wow. Wow, you better get some of these skills right now. You better skill up. No, I'm worried that I know where he's getting it from. That's my shame place. That's the story I tell myself, that he's going to be not a nice guy because daddy's not a nice guy. He's never seen me do any of that stuff. And he certainly didn't call me.

That's totally normal. Just manipulating. That's totally normal. Yeah. That's for. Yeah. That's such a great. That's like it's so funny.

It's a great thing about me married to a pediatrician is like I'm like, this is what happened today. It's just the way he goes. He's like, oh, trying on that behavior. So developmentally appropriate. Great news. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm like, really? He's like, oh, trying on that behavior is so developmentally appropriate. Great news. You know? I'm like, really? He's like, great news.

I was like, I think that's a BS frame just for me, but I'll take it. It's a better story. Yeah, no, but like I have a 13-year-old and 19-year-old. And so teaching them kind of we call it SFD. You can say whatever you want. We'll bleep it, but go ahead. Yeah, no, SFD, first draft. And for kids, stormy first draft, you know, churches.

So the first draft is the first story we make up. And so when my kids are on social media, are they like, everyone's doing this but me, everyone was invited but me. FOMO. Yeah, that everyone gets, you know, fractions but me. I'm like, do we know that for sure? Is that a story you're making up?

And they're like, well, it's a story I'm making up. I'm like, okay, how do we check it out? And so you use this in your office culture, which made that intervention with you, it sounds like that. Yes, yeah. that intervention with you. It sounds like that. Yes, yeah.

It's because we're truth tellers, really. And when people come in and work with us or they're new, they're like, I've never worked somewhere like this. Like, we'll just say, like, when they gave me the feedback, I said, okay, I'm going to call timeout, which is a big part of our culture. Because if you're going to have clear, kind, hard conversations, you have to give permission to call timeout. I'm going to call timeout for a is a big part of our culture. Because if you're going to have clear, kind, hard conversations, you have to get permission to call timeout. I'm going to call timeout for a second.

I'm feeling a little shamey because I don't want to be that person. But can we circle back in 30 minutes? And they're like, yeah. So I just kind of walked around the parking lot and took it in. And I came back and I said that that had to have been really hard to tell me. So I really appreciate it. I will think about it and I will work on it. And I have seen that intensity and I kind of know when I get into it.

I don't want to make you responsible for my behavior, but is there any way you can give me a sign when it's happening if I am missing it? And they said, yeah. And I said, okay. But they've all been on the receiving end of that. And so it's, when you normalize discomfort and hard conversations in an environment,

miracles can happen. I mean, but I will tell you, like, with my CFO, I called him probably, I don't know, six months ago, I think, and I said, I think we should pull out this partnership right now. We had a partnership with a big media partner that we were negotiating. I said, we should pull out this partnership right now.

And he's like, we haven't even inked it yet. We don't have a contract yet. And I was like, yeah, this is just BS. Like, I'm out. And he's like, okay, what's going on? And I said, well, the story I make up is that they've had the red line. They're not getting back with us. They're not interested.

So I'm going to pull out before they say they're not interested. And he said, okay, super helpful. They've had the red line for two hours. It's 62 pages. We will not hear anything from them for at least five or six days. I was like, oh, okay. He's like, do you still want to back out? No, I'm super excited about it.

But I'm just like, he's like, you know, so we are always, the story I'm telling myself, the story I make up is you didn't do that last night because you disagreed with us going in that direction. And the person will say, I did it last night. I turned it into your assistant and I don't know where it is, but that's not, you know, so we're constantly checking things out.

I love that. I think it's great because, you know, I am, I have kind of two jobs. I work at ABC News where I do anchor a couple of shows and technically nobody really reports to me. And then I also have a startup company, 10% Happier. We have a meditation app and I'm actually now really starting to get pretty granular about corporate culture and I'm learning a lot. I've never really been in a kind of management position. They need you. I don't actually have an executive role in the company. I'm a co-founder, but I'm interested in all this because, and I've got a lot out of your Netflix special on this level of like, how do you create a culture where there is, I think the term of art is psychological safety, where people feel safe speaking up and you can be on the right side of clear and kind. And

yeah, it's all super interesting. Much more of my conversation with Brene Brown coming up after this. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. I personally love Airbnbs. My friend Glenn and I just rented an Airbnb in Fort Lauderdale. We're going to bring our families down to see Inter-Miami play some soccer.

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When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent. Check out Audible Canadian Originals, including The Downloaded, a sci-fi adventure featuring Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca. I had so many interesting things. I'm just responding on that. So now I don't have to prepare for anything ever. You said something about people who are wholehearted. They wake up in the morning and feel like I'm good enough no matter what happens. Is that a skill somebody can build toward or is that a factory setting? No, that's a skill. I mean the factory settings can forecast how much work it's going to take to get there.

But it's definitely a skill set. It's definitely, like, I think I feel like I'm working toward it. I feel like I'm further than I was 10 years ago. Hopefully I'll, you know, I feel like my kids have it so much, they're so much closer than I am because Steve and I have been trying to be very intentional about not using shame to parent, about, you know, really trying to make some different decisions than how I think how we were parented, parents doing total best they can, they could with us. But I think, I think it's absolutely possible to for anyone to get there. I mean, and one of the big parts, and I've

heard you talk about this with other people, you've got to constantly check the narratives. Like we believe what we tell ourselves about ourselves, you know? And so if someone couldn't love you, didn't have the capacity or didn't want to love you, it doesn't make you unlovable because people didn't see value in what you produce or create doesn't make you less valuable. Like we have to really challenge the narratives that we have bought into and we built our lives around them. So I think if we can challenge the narrative and learn how to be uncomfortable in emotion, I think almost anything is possible. Here's the final question and maybe we'll have more time after this. We'll see. But I was told going into this that you didn't have much of a meditation practice. And so we always,

on this show, start with, hey, how'd you get into meditation? But I didn't do that with you because somehow I've been led to believe that you don't meditate. But then in our little chit-chat before we started rolling, you told me that you might. So say more about that, if you will. I don't know. Does it have to look a certain way? No. Okay. So here's the thing that I have to do something quiet, alone, and rhythmic on a daily basis basis or I would probably die. What do you mean by rhythmic? Like I'm a swimmer. Okay.

So like I just, you know, because I breathe every third stroke. And so it's got to be really quiet. It's got to be like the way I think about it. I'm a pretty spiritual person, which also happened during that kind of breakdown stuff. I mean, I was kind of raised Catholic or Episcopalian now, but I have a pretty healthy spiritual practice. So I always think about- By which you mean prayer? Both, I think, because praying to me is talking and then meditation to me is listening. And so I try to listen in a quiet, rhythmic space. So isn't that meditation? So I'll give you kind of a technical answer.

Yeah. Which is that I think it's great. When I talk about meditation, I'm talking about mindfulness meditation. And mindfulness actually has a specific meaning that I don't know because I really literally don't know because I'm not in your mind as you swim or whatever it is you're doing in these times, which, by the way, I think can have many, many, many benefits. Cardiovascular, psychologically, exercise can. But mindfulness is kind of a meta-awareness. It's a knowing that you know, or sometimes people will say we are classified as a species as homo sapiens sapiens. So the one who thinks and knows he or she thinks.

And so mindfulness is the ability to see clearly that you have a mind and are thinking and you have this voice in your head that's yammering at you all the time. And the mindfulness takes you out of that traffic. It allows you to see those processes and so that you're not owned by it. Oh, yeah. I definitely meditate. Okay. So in mindfulness meditation, you are systematically trying to focus on one thing. It could be swimming. It could be your breath. And then every time you get distracted, you start again. And the skill that develops over time is mindfulness, which is an ability not to be owned by whatever neurotic obsession just flits through your brain. I definitely do that.

I definitely do that. Like if anything comes into my mind other than the flow of the water over me, then I start over again. Yeah. So that's – yeah. I don't – I'm not as good as it, like I've tried walking meditation before. I'm, I'm not, interestingly, like I do like to sit still, but I'm working on the meditation thing, but I think swimming is very meditative for me. It's like a, it's like a decompression chamber.

Like you can't hear anything. You can't see anything. It's just, you're just breathing. But it's definitely the meta thinking. It's an awareness of my thinking. Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. And it's interesting.

I'm glad I asked, I stepped gingerly when you said that because often when people say to me, running is my meditation or swimming is my meditation, I say, actually, I think running and swimming or whatever, yarn bombing, whatever it is you do, is great. But unless you do it in a specific way, it's probably not meditation the way I define it. But actually, the parenthetical phrase there, unless you do it in a specific way, I think you are doing it in a specific way that would qualify it as mindfulness meditation.

I think it is mindfulness meditation even because I separate that swimming from when I'm like doing timed 50s or something like that. Like this is really about – it's a mental practice for me. Yeah, for sure. So I think I do that very much in the water. All right. I actually have a few minutes to ask this one last question I want to ask. Shoot.

We talked a lot about vulnerability as it pertains to sort of professional relationships and parenting a little bit, but we didn't really get into romantic relationships. So in our remaining moments here, what would that look like? You used the phrase in your Netflix special, I believe, the willingness to say I love you first. Yeah. But is that what you're talking about? I think it's more than that. I think it's like, you know, I just picture almost every couple I know, myself included, that like we go through the day so armored, get stuff done, you know, kick ass, don't

let anyone see anything that, you know, just do it. And then like we, you know, like when we climb in bed at night, we're in these big suits of armor, you know, two people that it's like so hard just to be seen. And I think, you know, having a partner that sees you and that, you know, to see and to be seen is the great human need, right? And I think to not be armored with the people that we love, to be able to say, I'm really afraid about this or this really hurt today or, but we don't do that. We go home and we keep it on even with our partners, you know, or I'm really scared about what we're hearing about little Sammy or, you know, like to be able to sink into each other as a place of safety and not one more place where we have to prove and perfect and please and worry about what people think. I mean, I think that's the goal. I think it is, and I do think saying I love you first. I do think, say, thinking, you know, I'm afraid. Like,

it was interesting because, I mean, this is a great example. I, so another piece of feedback that I've received in my life is that instead of getting Like, it was interesting because, I mean, this is a great example. So another piece of feedback that I've received in my life is that instead of getting scared, I can become scary. Like, yeah. Laughing because it feels like something I would do. Yeah. Like, I can get, like, if I'm scared, I can get pretty fierce about stuff. But I was talking with Steve before I came to New York, and we were were riding the car and he's like, what is the anxiety about Netflix? He's like, I've watched it. You know, I give you

real honest feedback. He's like, I think you crushed it. You know, and I think to be able to go up there and do that and it was meaningful. I think it could change people's lives in important ways. And I was like, no, I just, I don't know. I just, I hate this part. I hate it getting out in the public now and I'm scared. And he's like, well, what are you scared of? And I said, like, I didn't want to say it because I knew what it was, but I didn't want to say it. And he's like, I'm going to pull over. And I was like, don't you dare pull over. I was like, don't make eye contact with me. I was like, don't make eye contact with me. And he's like, I'm a pullover and then I'm going to stare at you. And I'm like, oh my God, you're so mean. And so I was like, if you keep driving, I'll tell you. And I was like, don't look at me and don't say anything after I say it or I'm going to be pissed.

And he's like, okay. And I said, I think it's the anticipatory anxiety of knowing the cheap seat criticism is coming like the first couple days something comes out it's the people who love your work and they're like thank you this is great really enjoyed it but then as it goes as it as it radiates out like the pebble in the pond. Then people are like, you know, screw you. You know, like those people come. And I said, so it's like when you were 10 and you know your brother is going to frog you in the arm, but you don't know when it's coming. And he's like, I am pulling over. And I was like, oh, damn it.

And so he's like, that's coming. And he's like, you know that's coming because you've put your work out in the world for a long time and you're super brave. But, you know, it's coming and you can choose not to read it. And I'll be here and it's going to be okay and it was worth it. You know, like I get teary-eyed saying it. Like that's vulnerable, you know, as opposed to just getting in the car and being like, hey, you know, lock and load, let's go. Like to really let someone see what scares you.

Or like with kids, like I remember one time my daughter coming home Really let someone see what scares you. Or like with kids, like I remember one time my daughter coming home and she had just started high school. And she said, I'm running, you know, she was running for class president of her freshman class. And she came home one day and we were sitting at dinner and we'd go around after grace and we'd say what we're grateful for. And she goes, I'm really grateful for y'all. And I said, thanks, Elle. And we were getting ready to go to her brother. And she goes, because I can tell you how bad I really want this. And I'm not going to win.

I know I'm not going to win. And I said, yeah, you may not win. You may, but you may not. And I said, but when you let people know how bad you want something that you know you may not win. You may, but you may not. And I said, but when you let people know how bad you want something that you know you may not get, you've already won. Like, that's brave. Because most of us are like, I don't care. I don't really care.

I'm just doing it for the fun of it. Let's see what happens. And then you go cry in your room alone, and then you dry your tears and come out like a badass, you know, and like I didn't really care about it. But to let people know you care about things, like that's vulnerable. It sounds like it was vulnerable on both sides. You and Stephen Dakar both were vulnerable because he gave you honest, clear feedback.

And same with you and Ellen. She was vulnerable in admitting how she felt and you were vulnerable in not trying to make her problem go away and switch the lights on for her. You sat with her in the fear. Yeah, and I think one of the biggest barriers to raising vulnerable, courageous kids, if I think about my own upbringing, is our parents who put too much emphasis on cool. Like cool is a straight jacket.

Like Steve and I will be dancing around the kitchen in our socks or something, and my son who's getting ready to be 14 will be like, oh, my God, stop. And we'll be listening to some very popular song, like Old Town Road or something. And she'll be like, no, this is burnt in my vision forever. And we'll stop and get really serious and be like, hey, look, we won't ever do that in front of your friends. We won't embarrass you. You don't have to dance with us. But in this house, awkward, silly, uncool always rules.

You have a place to do that. Steve was right. You did a great job on your Netflix special. Thank you. And I do recommend unreservedly that people watch it. That means a lot. Thank you. It's heartfelt.

Wholehearted even. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. It was great to meet you. I could talk to you for five hours. Me too. Maybe we'll do it again. I would love that. Thank you. Thanks again to Brene. That conversation has really stuck with me. I've gone back to it many times. So really appreciate her coming on. After having listened to Brene, you might feel ready to put some of her ideas to work in your own life. So let me mention again, our upcoming New Year's Meditation Challenge. It starts Monday, January 4th. You can meditate alongside thousands of other people. You can even

invite your friends and track their progress. As mentioned at the top of the show, we're going to have a special focus on self-compassion and self-love, which research suggests can be much more effective than shame and self-loathing when you're trying to boot up a new healthy habit or break an unhealthy one. So download the 10% Happier app right now and sign up. Big thanks, as always, to the team who worked so hard to make this show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our producer. Jules Dodson is our AP. Our sound designer is Matt Boynton of Ultraviolet Audio. Maria Wartell is our production coordinator.

We get an enormous amount of insight and input from our TPH colleagues, such as Jen Point, Nate Tobey, Ben Rubin, and Liz Levin. And, of course, as always, a big thank you to my ABC News comrades, Ryan Kessler and Josh Kohan. We'll see you all on Wednesday for an episode with Evelyn Tribbley. This is an episode that genuinely, and this is an overused phrase, I know, but happens to be true in this case, genuinely changed my life. Evelyn is the co-creator of Intuitive Eating, which has revolutionized my often fraught relationship to food. So we'll see you on Wednesday with that.

If you like 10% Happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Where can I get help hiring people with disabilities? There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians with disabilities who are ready to work, and many local organizations are available to help you find qualified candidates and make your workplace more accessible and inclusive. Visit Canada.ca slash right here to connect with one near you today. A message from the Government of Canada. When I say the word history, what do you think about?

Horses and buggies and dust and a bunch of white dudes riding their horses and buggies in the dust. Facts. Definitely not enough melanin on all those history books. But we are about to flip the script on all of that. From Wondery, this is Black History For Real. Together we'll weave Black History's most overlooked figures back into the rightful place in American culture and all over the world. Follow Black History For Real on the Wondery app

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