Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - Zach Braff On: Anxiety, Sobriety, Insomnia, Grief, Social Media, and the Meaning of the Tattoo on His Wrist

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

Today’s episode is a wide-ranging Interview with Zach Braff, one of those rare famous people who’s really willing to go there. You may know Braff from the TV show Scrubs or the movie Garden State but Braff is actually a genuine multi-hyphenate; a true triple threat. He acts, writes and directs his own movies and other people’s TV shows including Ted Lasso on Apple TV. Relatively recently he put out a new movie that he both wrote and directed called A Good Person starring Florence Pugh and Morgan Freeman.  In this episode we talked about anxiety, depression, insomnia, addiction, grief, social media usage, and what he means by “learning to love your fate”—a notion that is literally tattooed on his wrist. This Interview was conducted in person at the TED conference in Vancouver this past April. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/tph/podcast-episode/zach-braffSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's the 10% happier podcast. I'm your host, your boy Dan Harris. Hello, everybody. Today we've got a wide ranging interview with Zach Braff. He's one of those rare, famous people who's really willing to go there. We talk about a lot of stuff here, anxiety, depression, insomnia, addiction, grief, social media usage, and what he means by these phrases, learning to love your likes and learning to love your likes and learning to love your fate. That second notion, he feels so strongly

about that he literally tattooed it on his wrist. You may know Zach from the TV show Scrubs or the movie Garden State, but this dude is a genuine multi-hyphenate. He's a true triple threat. He acts, writes, and directs, and that includes his own movies and other people's stuff. He's actually directed on Ted Lasso over on Apple TV, plus I know a lot of people listen to this show, love that show. Relatively recently Zach put out another of his own movies, which he wrote and directed. It's called A Good Person, and it stars Florence Pew and Morgan Freeman, and has a lot of

resonant themes for this show and this audience. So we talk about that movie a little bit among many other things. We conducted this interview in person at the Ted Conference in Vancouver a few months back, always cool to do interviews in person. Just to say, and this is important, at least to me, I've mentioned this before, I think.

But we're starting to experiment with some new formats on Fridays, historically, as many of you know, we've posted full interviews on Mondays and Wednesdays and then bonus meditations on Friday, but now we're gonna start posting some regular episodes on Fridays as well. And if you could do me a solid, we could use some feedback on this.

Do you actually want us to do three episodes a week? Will you listen? We actually have tons of material and a ton of other people that we'd like to interview and put on the show. However, I do not want to turn this show into the audio version of spam. So please hit me up on Twitter, or send me a note through 10%.com. Let me know if three is a crowd. Isn't that the expression?

Two is company, three is a crowd. Anyway, yeah, give me feedback, please. Have you been considering starting or restarting your meditation practice? Well in the words of highway billboards across America, if you're looking for a sign, this is it. To help you get started, we're offering subscriptions at a 40% discount until September 3rd. Of course, nothing is permanent.

So get this deal before it ends by going to 10%.com slash 40. That's 10% one word all spelled out. .com slash 40 for 40% off your subscription. Zach Braf welcome to the show. Thank you Dan for having me. Nice to see you. Congratulations on the new movie. Thank you.

It was really fun to watch. Well, I don't want to say it was fun to watch. Well, I'm a fun is the word. I mean, very humor of course. Definitely. I hope that it's a moving experience. Was it a moving? Definitely.

All right, good. I'm going to ask you a question. There's a bit of a potentially embarrassing gambit. You can ask me anything Dan. I just will say pass if I don't want to ask you a question. This is a bit of a potentially embarrassing gambit. But you can ask me anything, Dan. I just will say pass if I don't want to answer. Fine, fine. That's what I always tell journalists. I know you're a bit of a hybrid,

but what I always tell journalists, you can ask me anything. I might just say pass. I don't think this is personal, well, maybe my worry is it's a little on the nose. Go ahead. The name of the movie is a good person. This is something I've asked myself a lot,

am I a good person? I'm just curious, do you ask yourself that and where do you net out on whether you're a good person? I don't know, and I really don't, I don't even attempt to answer that for people. I hope of course amongst the conversations that people have with their friends and loved ones after they see the film that that might come up.

I will just say that when tragedy has struck me and when I've seen it strike loved ones that there is an initial response of why me. I'm a good person. Why did this happen to me? And I lost my sister to an aneurysm. She survived two years as a fraction of herself before she passed. And I'm looking at my mom deal with this horrific thing that has happened and be by her bedside every day. And one can help but say to the universe, why my mom, she's a saint, she's the nicest person I've ever met, she's such a good person. Why did this befall her? My friend Amanda Clude's lost my best friend Nick Cordero to COVID, Amanda Clude's if anyone who's ever met her or sees her on the talk as a host, she's a saint,

she's literally an angel, She's actually a religious person. So on top of being a saint in real life, she's also a religious person. Why her? And so I think that's probably one of the sources of the title of the film is that human inclination, I believe, to cry out either silently or in real life. Why me?

I'm a good person. Do you think there's any order in the universe? No, I don't have any answers for that. That's just what the poem's about. If you can call it a poem, we use a poem, what are the words of art. I just mean so. That's what the piece of art is ruminating on

is how we move on, how these things before all of us human beings at obviously relative scales of tragedy in the film. It's not a secret, it's in the trailer, it's a vehicular manslaughter that happens to this family. But I hope that people see in themselves their own struggles, their own grief

that they've dealt with in their life and can experience it, but also see that there's hope in the film. That's what I meant to get across. I guess what I was driving at is, it's very common, as you said, for people to say why me when something bad happens to them. I remember in high school there was this really cool kid John Spanillo who was a friend of mine and I always I saw who was the coolest guy and one day ripped his shirt and he's

like why does this always happen to me. I was like oh he feels like that. This is a common refrain for us and yet I had a guest on a couple of years ago I can't remember who it was. But she said, when bad shit happens to her, she's like, why not me? I guess it must be my turn. That feels like the more rational response. I don't know that I could muster it.

I don't know that I could muster it, but it's very healthy. I knew this old castor who just passed away in New York, J. Bender, used to say, I, in a very heavy Jewish New York accent, he said, I, in a very heavy Jewish New York accent, I just expect that anything that could possibly go wrong will go wrong. And that way, if anything good happens, it's a mitzvah.

That's another way to go about it. Well, yeah, well, that's a kind of defensive pessimism that I, is sort of like a backdoor manifestation. But this is different. I mean, it's like you get the cancer diagnosis and instead of saying, why me, I'm a good person, you're like, all right, well, cancer happens. I'm a person. So the sum odds is going to happen to me. Yeah. I hear that. I don't know that I would have the strength of mind to say that if and when it happened to me. I think I would fall into the category of people say, you know, what the fuck?

I live a healthy life. I'm kind, I try to be the best person I can. Which of course makes no sense in the order of the universe. It's just it feels like a human impulse. You know, I know that I've sometimes had this inner dialogue of, well, you're actually a piece of shit. Not about you, about me. About me as well.

About you. About me, dear. Yeah, you're the worst. And I've just wanted to, like, is that a thing you wrestle with at all? Or because you sidestepped the question, you didn't say pass, but you didn't take that part of the question. I aspire to be a good person. I'm not passing on that.

No, but I think we all fall down. We all have to make amends for time. So we were a piece of shit. That's just being a human being. But certainly, I aspire to learn. I aspire to be better. I aspire to make amends for places where I fucked up. I mean, worth a TED conference.

I wouldn't be here if I wasn't trying to learn and grow and be a better human being for however many years I have left here. I'm going to reframe my attendance at TED as part of me being a good person. I like that. Well, no, I just think that if you're here, if you're lucky enough to be here, why are you here? I'm going to reframe my attendance at Ted as part of me being a good person. I like that. Well, no, I just think that if you're here, if you're lucky enough to be here, why are

you here? One is here because there's an opportunity to learn. There's an opportunity to say, I don't know anything about most of these topics. And I want to learn. I want to grow. I want to be educated. And then hopefully bring that back to my community, whether it's my personal community or my fan community or the work that I do

and spread positive information. Yeah, it's amazing that way. It really is. I mean, just the first night, last night, which is fascinating. You listed a series of cataclysm that to fell you and the family over the last couple of years. Your sister, your dad passed away.

I don't know if you mentioned that, but your dad also passed away. Oh, it's my dad, yeah., your dad passed away. I don't know if you mentioned that, but your dad also passed away. Oh, it's my dad, yeah. And then your friend Nick. And then my friend Nick, too, COVID, and then even after I wrote the film, my manager, Krishivane, to depression, and who took his own life. All of that's happened since 2018. That's a lot.

I'm sorry. I'm curious how that parade of horribles resulted in writing this movie, What Was the Cause of Link? I find writing very hard solely because staring at the blank cursor and finding anything to do, but actually, right, is easier than writing. But during lockdown, I felt like I was out of excuses and I felt like I did have something to say. I didn't know quite what it was. I wanted to write something about these feelings.

I didn't know the story that would come out of it. I didn't want to tell them my specific stories, but I wanted to write about grief. I wanted to write about standing back up. I wanted to write about hope. You know, when my work has resonated before, I tapped into a specificity of feelings and emotions. I was having myself, but other people found a way and then saw themselves in it. So I thought if I went back and wrote something very, very authentic to myself, there would likely be people that would respond to it

like they did to my first film, Garden State. I was also dating Florence Poo at the time we did lockdown together and I'm just in awe of her as an actress. So I always knew I was going to write it for her. I was never planning to be in it myself. I was writing it with her as the protagonist. So it was that emotional state.

I mean, Nick and his wife, I have a small guest house behind my home and they were literally living in my home during lockdown when he got COVID and was admitted to Cedar Sinai and slowly died. So that we were at a front row for that and helping to take care of Amanda and her child. So it was in that headspace that I wrote the film, A Good Person. So you didn't want to tell the story on the nose of what had happened to you, but you wanted to take those emotions, funnel it into a leading lady who happened to be living with it at the time. And the story of A Good person is what came out. Absolutely. That's better said than I said it.

You must be a journalist. Addiction is a huge part of this movie. Is that something you've dealt with? Not in a attending a program sort of way myself, but I'm definitely exploring my own relationship to alcohol and consumption on my own. There's this whole movement called sober curious. I definitely feel part of the sober curious community and trying out life without booze. I've been lucky so far that I haven't needed program but wouldn't hesitate for a second if I felt I did. But I've had many loved ones, battle it, and I've been very moved by the opioid crisis. It's always been something that really bothered me, and then I read the book

Doge-Sick, and that just made me live it. Anyone who reads the book will, I think, feel the same way. It's brilliantly written, and the quicker ways, of course, watch the series, which was very well done. But so, I guess my feelings about addiction and my feelings about Big Pharma and what has been fallen on our country was also on my mind when I was writing. So you're not drinking right now? I'm currently not drinking at all, no. How long? But it's about to be three months.

Wow. That's a lot. Yeah, I mean, it's something. I don't want a broadcast that I'm necessarily sober for life, but I am sober curious and trying it and feeling pretty darn great. That was just what I was going to ask each showing up in like your mood. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

It's a great experiment. I don't know if you've listened to the Rich Roll podcast, but he's just really become I don't know, I call him my rabbi, but I just find him so helpful. I encourage when you're not listening to Dan's podcast, and when you're not listening to Dan's podcast and when you're not listening to my podcast fake doctor's real friends. There's a plug. Rich is just an incredible inspiring guy and he's a guy who did have a huge addiction problem and tackled it and then became one of the most major marathoners on the planet and had not had a young age in his 40s. Yeah he's just such an inspiration. I jokingly call my rabbi because there's so much I've learned from his podcast. He has

these wonderful guests on and then I buy their book where I go to their website and I learn so much more and he actually sent me a link to a guy who started a movement called One Year No Beer. That was really targeting that subset of humans that might not necessarily need a program like AA or inpatient or any kind of recovery, but could possibly potentially do it on their own, but are kind of curious. And he framed it as a challenge on his website. So you could do 38 challenge, a three-month challenge.

And he even says that it helps me in your social circles when people are pressuring you to, oh, come on, anyway, when you frame it, like, oh, no, I'm doing this challenge. People are lean in and they're like, really? What's the challenge? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I don't mean to say that I'm doing that in particular, but I responded to what this guy was saying about looking at one's relationship to alcohol and how I might be able to lead a better life without it.

Why do you think life would be better? What were the downsides to drinking? Well, I'm 48 now and I really began to notice that even casual drinking made me feel a lot more tired and a lot more depressed, anxious. I think they're feelings I had most of my life, but they get magnified every year. So just in doing a little experiment with playing with the idea of doing a month sober, and then you start to feel benefits and you go, oh, shit, I tried two months,

and then you do two months and you feel better and lighter and healthier. And then you try three months. And anyone, and you talk to any sober person, it'll tell you, oh, just wait till six months. And that coupled with working out, and I just think it's been really good for my mental health. Now, again, I don't want someone to come up to be in a bar and go, hey, you said you weren't drinking. I don't know that this is for life, but it's something I'm certainly intrigued by and enjoying.

It could just be part of a recalibration that leads to a different relationship. Absolutely, absolutely. But I gotta tell you, I do have to say that if anyone's curious, sober curious, try it for a month. It's without a doubt noticeable for me. I don't wanna downplay how hard it is,

just in little ways. I stopped drinking not because I ever had a problem with alcohol. I don't, although there's a lot of alcoholism in my family. So what I'm about to say might have been a blessing, but in my late 30s, so back in the steam era. In the 60s. Yeah. In my late 30s, I just developed an intolerance for it.

It makes me sick. I have a question for you. Or my last question. Of course. You recalibrated your life in a huge way. I read your book, yeah, well, I stopped doing cocaine, that was a different thing. Okay, but in addition to stopping to doing cocaine and finding meditation

as a way to totally transform your whole life, did you also cut down, I'll go hold it. I'll just keep drinking. I kept drinking, but I was never a huge drinker, so it was not impacting my life. Cocaine was impacting my life in that. It gave me a panic attack. And also would I be a mess the next day?

I don't know if anybody can moderately use Cocaine, but I certainly was not using it moderately when I did it on those occasions. But a couple of years after that, so that happened that panic attack happened. I was like 34, 35, around 38, 39, anytime I would have a sip of alcohol, no matter what kind, I would feel bad. So I just cut it out. Yeah. What I was saying is that even to this day, so it's been 13, 14 years

where I just don't drink. If I'm out to lunch with a bunch of buddies and they're having a nice bottle of wine or if I'm at a cocktail party and people are handing out drinks, I really want it. It's not like I want to get hammered, but it's fun to drink with others. I'm saying all of this to go back to my comment about three months for you. It is no small deal. Three months is...

No, it isn't. Because, because, you know, I said to my friend, you know, we're at the Ted conference. For me to get from the Ted conference to my hotel room, I probably passed 10 bars last night. Yeah. Literally, because if you're not here at the conference, when the events are over, there's bars everywhere at the convention center and then in your hotel.

But I really am having fun with it. I'm treating it like a bit of a game, like the challenge. I'm not doing this gentleman's challenge, but I feel like I'm doing a challenge. And my therapist always says there's such power and a streak. Yes. And I definitely feel the power and fun of the streak and I'm like, I'm not fucking on my streak. I don't care.

You mentioned before anxiety and depression. Yeah. I know you have some clinical history with that, with OCD as well. Yeah. And panic attacks, which I've only had the one panic attack. No, I'm pretty good at it. I don't want to brag. I know that you have the one that was broadcast

and changed your life. Yes, there have been plenty of them, not been broadcast and also diminished my life. It's funny, I mean, I'm excited to talk to you because I've been meditating for a while now. And I said, you know, when I see Dan Harris, I'm gonna tell him that, you know, when I do it regularly, it's more than 10%.

And I'm sure that you've heard that from people. But I've been waiting for years, I'll tell you that. But I think you're underselling meditation. Well, you know my little schick on this is that. No, I forgot. The 10% compounds annually. It's like any good investment. You know, the 10% is joke.

Anyway, I'm trying to counter program against the over-promising of many people in that. No, I think it's smart of this stuff. But I've found there's moments where I'm in a good streak with it, and I'm doing it regularly, and I feel really good. And I'm like, I want to tell Dan Harris that 10% is under selling. Then I've done my job.

I've done my job. I'd rather have people have upside. But it sounds like you get on streaks and then. I do, I do have to say with meditation, I do fall off the wagon sometimes. It has to do with finding the time or getting up early like for example here I didn't meditate today I wish I had I got up early to have breakfast and then get here in time and got a coffee with a friend and I didn't do it today and I find it compounds over the course of a week so if by Friday you didn't meditate at all I notice it more

than if I miss a day or two. Absolutely. How long do you, your sessions, I forgot? How'd a good day. You know, like I skipped the morning here at Ted and stayed in my room because I, this is not interesting, but the last couple of weeks I've been out and about traveling with my family and that I got sick and I haven't been able to do some of the basics of self care that I wanted to do. So this morning I was like, look, I'm gonna get up,

I'm gonna meditate for 45 minutes, I'm gonna swim, I'm gonna stretch and then I'm gonna show up to conference while I can wanna show up. Great, so you do a 45 minute morning meditation? Yeah, and then I'll do some throughout the rest of the day, here and there, usually a little bit of walking meditation before I go to bed. I find walking meditation right before bed gets the spiel casserole, the ants and the pants.

So anyway, I tried to shoot for about an hour a day and chunks. Yeah. Which by the way is not just for anybody who's listening and worried that, well, I can't be a meditator if I'm not doing a standhairs. I think one minute counts. Oh, absolutely. Short doses. Do what, if you're curious about this, and I really learned it from Dan's book, you were my, really, truly, this is not bullshit. Your book was my first introduction into the idea

that it could be helpful for anxiety and panic. And it really has been. I aspire to be more diligent about it than I currently am, but I notice it. And like, if you're listening and curious, and obviously you know about this, if you're listening to Dan's podcast, but yeah, I mean, it's better to do five minutes

than do zero minutes. Yes. Can I make you feel better about the, or at least try to make you feel better about the alleged, but you lack of diligence about my question. Yeah, please. I think it is very normal from what we know

about habit formation and behavior change to have streaks and that streaks that end. And I actually think there can be real benefit to quote unquote, falling off the wagon. Part of it is that, and I hear this in some of your comments, that you can start to see what an asshole you are to yourself, more clearly when you haven't meditated.

And that can be a powerful incentive to get back on the wagon. And so I wouldn't waste those lapses. I wouldn't waste the ends of these streaks. There can be really powerful learning experience. It's definitely without a doubt, in my mind, noticeable when I take even a small amount of time each morning and do it.

Yes. What's important for you in terms of managing things like anxiety, depression, I know OCD was more of an issue when you were a kid. Yeah. What OCD in terms of tapping and stuff like that was a childhood problem, but as an adult, meaning compulsive tapping. Yeah. Yeah. Compulsive tapping. Your listeners may have seen stories on television,

but as a child, an example I give is I had a teddy bear, and I would think, I need to kiss the teddy bear six times before I leave my bedroom or something bad is going to happen in my family. And then even as a little boy, I remember thinking, well, that doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's real, but just to be safe, I don't want anything to happen to my family, so I'm going to do it for the family.

And it was like a superstition. My mom's a psychologist, so she knew what these signs were, and I saw a therapist and he diagnosed it as OCD. And I eventually grew out of the tapping stuff. I never had that problem as an adult, but I'll see it still at 48, a little whisper in my brain going, you know, you should straighten that, or it'll be sort of bad luck for the day. That's how it manifests in my head now. And then I have the ability to go, oh, shut the fuck up. I'm not fixing that corner of that magazine. But I hear it. I do hear it. How skillful are you at saying shut the fuck up to anxiety and depression? Hum, I need tools for that. My therapist jokingly says, going in the gym will put me out of business,

meaning putting him out of business. So I do find that working out definitely helps. I need that. Meditation helps, not drinking helps, sleep, important, very important for me, laughter. Those are some of the things. I mean, that's the sun. I'm definitely need sun. I love Vancouver. Thank you for having me Vancouver. I can't live here.

I definitely am. I notice that I mentally feel healthier in the sunny environment. Coming up, Zach Braff talks about the significance of the tattoo he has on his wrist, how he deals with insomnia, and the pros and cons of social media. This is a bit of a non-sequitor, but in the movie there's a plot point involving a tattoo but in the movie there's a plot point involving a tattoo on the Morgan Freeman character and that tattoo is also on your body in the same place on your right wrist. It says a more Fati-AMO or a more Fati F-A-T-T-I? F-A-T-I.

F-A-T-I. And that's Latin. What does it mean? It's Latin for loving your fate. It's something I've stumbled into, you know, just in reading during the pandemic. It's sort of a stoic ideology, but I forgot who was done by somebody who's listening to Google or the origins of it. But I folded it into the film because I thought it was, it was helpful for me in dealing with my sadness and grief.

The idea of embracing your fate and finding a way to love it because there was sort of power in just saying, I can't control this, so I'm gonna find a way to love what I have, what I've been given. And I'm not gonna describe it other than that and felt empowering. And so I wrote it into a good person because Morgan Freeman's character has been through quite a lot in his whole life.

And also, as our story goes, he in the last year lost his daughter and son-in-law. So I like the idea of it being a little memento that he put on his wrist to help himself. And then when the film was wrapped and kind of to commemorate the experience, and my own love of the expression, I put it in the same place that Morgan has in the movie on my own body. How scalable is the idea of loving your fate when, if you're like Morgan Freeman, and fate has dealt you not Morgan Freeman himself, but the character in the film had a very difficult

and violent father. He served in what many believed to be a Miss Begotten War in Vietnam. He struggled with alcoholism. He had a lot of family issues of his own making when he became a father and then he lost his daughter. Is it fair to ask somebody to love that kind of fate? I don't know.

It's not mean a judge if it's fair or not. I just think they're coping mechanisms not unlike the things we're talking about, meditation, exercise and the like. To me, it's akin to someone finding a prayer they like that's meaningful to them. Just inspirational words to live by, to aspire to. It's not for me to judge if it's possible or fair for anybody. As a secular man, I feel that I am looking for words of wisdom and prayers of sorts to live by. And this one's been helpful to me. So the way you compute it is something I'm going to guess here. It's something along the lines of

like, look, this is the way things are right now. I can rail against it, or I can just love that this is my life the way it is right now because that is the sanest approach. Yes, and also what might come out of this that could never and would never have been. I mean, the film just is an example. A good person is about two people

that would never in a thousand years have had a friendship and would never have changed each other's lives or even probably been in each other's lives. Her former fiance is estranged from his father. So he probably wouldn't have been much in her life at all. But fate brought these two people together and they end up saving each other in a special unique way that the film tells.

One positive way when you when you're delto round of grief or sadness or depression is to focus on positive things that have happened gratitude for things you have in your life and things that you're lucky to have, things that you're blessed to have, and whatever your fate has dealt to those things in the same hand of cards that it's dealt to the grief. I'm not saying I can always think that way, Dan, but I'm saying it's something to aspire to. Absolutely, that's why you get a tattoo done, you know.

It's literally tattooed on my wrist so I can stare at it all day. Absolutely. I'm a huge believer in that. I mean, there would be no point in me having this podcast as we say the same shit over and over again. There would be no point in having the podcast if we didn't need to hear it over and over again. One of the things I say a million times a year on this show,

and almost because I need to hear it, is that the original translation of the word that we now translate as mindfulness, the original translation of the word, Sati, S-A-T-I-D-H, Indian subcontinental word, which we now describe as mindfulness, is remembering. Because that is what we're doing in meditation, which we now describe as mindfulness is remembering. Because that is what we're doing in meditation, we're remembering to wake up.

And by tattooing a morafati on your, on the inside of your wrist, you're remembering to practice it. That is the path of personal development for lack of a better term, is to remembering to cut against our ingrained habit patterns, which are often making us miserable. And we need to be reminded all the time because life is so busy and we're distracted by so many

things. So obviously meditation helps you quiet your mind and focus on what it's like to have a quiet mind, but also reading and learning and podcasts. All these things help us remember because we so quickly forget, you know, how many times have you read a great quote and you've seen the quote before, but then you read the new, the quote and it's like you're experiencing it a new and you're like, how do I fucking forget this quote? This quote should be my mantra. Yes. Well, what I like about meditation because I am all four books and podcasts and that's how I make my living, but I'm all for it as a consumer too. But what meditation does, I think, is pounded into your neurons on the regular. And so it just gets into you in a deeper way than merely hearing something inspirational.

I'm not a meditation fundamentalist. I'm a believer in all sorts of modalities, but the thing about meditation is that it's putting it into your molecules in a way that I think is really powerful. I believe it. And it's something you can use all day. I feel like when I do it regularly, you sort of built up a well that you can pull from for that day.

That's my experience. Yes. 100%. I felt that with yoga too for a while, I was into something I'd like to get back into, but a form of yoga that was quite meditative. And I felt like all day long, I remember, this is a time when I was living in day long, I remember I was a time

when I was living in New York City, and I was using the subway and feeling like the chaos of that, and then I could find myself going into the quiet space of the yoga and calling it up, like a stored battery that I had charged that morning. One might even say remembering. Yeah. This is what I'm talking about,

or this is what I'm stealing from the Buddha. You and apps like head space, and they're like, I think are making it palatable to so many people that wouldn't have access to it or the time to study the ancient Buddha or to go on a retreat somewhere. I think you're doing a great service by presenting it in a way that can be digested in the modern world. Thank you. We're talking about Amor Fati as the motto. It reminded me it may be a making connection where there is none there, but this is only my second year of Ted, but I have a Ted Bud, this woman who may have heard of her name is Maria Semple.

She wrote a book called Where Did You Go Burn a Dead, which got made into a movie. Anyway, I'd never heard of the movie or of the book or a Maria, but I got seated next year at a dinner last year. I absolutely fell in love with her. And so I was hanging out with her again last night. And I think she's amazing. She was a pioneering comedy writer, was working on shows like the SNL

when there were no other female writers and just a really funny and cool and brave person. And she was telling me last night about a quote that she likes, which is learning to love your likes. Now this was an expression that came around before Facebook, so it's not about getting positive feedback on social media, it's about the things that you do every day that you just like, that you might overlook,

like your morning coffee or taking a walk or the fact that you live close to your favorite restaurant. All these little things that are cool in your life that you would otherwise overlook. Yeah. Remembering to fall in love with those. Yeah, I love that. I also do a thing every night while I'm trying to fall asleep and try and focus that time on things that I'm grateful for in my life. Yes.

Yes. So I have a bit of insomnia that I that I deal with, but one way to use that timeline on the pillow waiting to fall asleep is to instead of obsessing about the next day or things that are on my to-do list to focus that time on finding all the many things that I'm grateful for both small things and the big things in my life. I do the exact same thing. I also have insomnia. What are your remedies for that? Oh, man.

I'm throwing the kitchen sink at it. Hot baths every night is new for me. Someone suggested that and I really feel that the bath's helpful. There's this sleepy time tea. There's like extra mega sleepy time tea. And I drink that. No screens in the bedroom, that's a killer.

So I mean, my phone a bit, but not watching TV in bed. I'll do that maybe on the weekends, but on a normal week night, I get in bed and read because, you know, it's a whole regimen for me. This is new. And these are new things I'm trying. But taking a hot bath, drinking the tea, getting in bed with like one light on, putting the phone down, sometimes I'll play digital backgammon on my phone. But other than that, my point is trying to get away from watching TV and movies in bed. A book makes me tired and helps me fall asleep. I would imagine for you watching TV and movies

would be more stressful than it is for most of us because it is your work and you're gonna be in work mode watching it. I don't think that's the case. I love movies and TV more than anything, but they stimulate me. They don't make me tired. Okay.

A book, even an interesting book, I find will drain my eyes and my mind and sort of be a good wind down, especially if you're sipping on Sleepy Time T and just had a hot bath. It's a good wind down. Whereas if I'm watching a show that's so good and so fascinating, my brain's not winding down, it's firing and all so under. Succession doesn't put you to sleep. Oh god, I love that show. I missed this week, so...

Me too. But last week I thought was one of the best episodes of Tellers And I've Ever Seen. I know I'm not alone in this, but that show is so wonderfully written and so wonderfully acting, so wonderfully directed. And I've loved so much of it, but I thought that that wedding episode was one of the best dramatic episodes of TV dramatic slash comedy episodes of TV I've seen in a long time.

I agree, it was extraordinary. The tone is just so uniquely them. Yes. No one else is hitting that brilliant tone. I don't even want to call it other than succession. So for books, fiction or nonfiction. Nonfiction, okay. Yeah.

First of all, Mark Harris wrote a great book about Mike Nichols, which I really recommend everyone listening. And the one I'm reading now is really amazing. And I don't want it to end. And it's called Pictures at a Revolution. Five movies and the birth of the new Hollywood. It's really good. He's a wonderful writer about Hollywood.

I just read a book called The Chaos Machine, but I highly recommend everyone, especially if you have children, that's just about social media and the social media empires and what they're doing to our minds, especially what they're doing to our children's minds. And I don't even have kids, but you should read the Chaos Machine if you do.

Has it impacted the way you use it? Absolutely. I'm in a different mode right now because I'm really plugging a good person in my film to anyone and everyone who'll listen. But when that period is over, I definitely will tip toe back off of social media because I found it to be all consuming and addictive.

Addictive in that you're looking at what other people are posting, doomscrolling, or like looking at how many likes you got based on what you posted. No, more just like setting the tone of my day with negativity. I really got off Twitter because I was very involved with reading Twitter and I just found the tone of it was so negative. I don't mean searching for stuff about me.

Of course, one sees that. I'm just mean like the cynicism and anger of Seth Godin was another person who was on Rich Rolls podcast. He said, something that really stuck with me. He said, I have no interest in reading people day trade their emotions. And that really kind of landed with me. You know, sometimes something just lands with you. And I thought, if this was a town, I wouldn't go to this town. Why am I bringing this town to my home? I'm totally true, it is, it really is.

And they're not just day trading with their emotions, they're day trading with your emotions. Well, I just get you riled up about any subject. And so I successfully stopped using it. I do go on, of course, because I'm lucky enough to have a lot of followers on there. I do, it is a great way still to get your word out about my projects. And I do use all the social media, not TikTok personally, because I actually, I tasted TikTok

and was like, I do not need this addiction. But I go on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter to promote my stuff. But when I'm not in a promotion mode, I'll glance at Instagram a few times a day to see what's up with my friends and family and stuff. But I'm not on Twitter or Facebook anymore. Coming up, Zach talks about his latest film, and why it feels like a return to probably his most famous film, Garden State, which was a huge success. Why both of us agree that writing can bring us

to the lowest of low points and the highest of high points, and finally, Brad, Garden State, which was a huge success. Why both of us agree that writing can bring us to the lowest of low points and the highest of high points. And finally, Braff gives us a meditation pep talk. A couple of other questions for you. Just before I let you go, we've referenced Rich Roll a couple times. Who's been on this show and I've been on his show. I'm a big admirer. Yeah, I'm like his publicist now. I don't know if Rich needs me. It's publicist because he's

blowing up, but I am his publicist. Well, you're representing a good client. Just to come off of that Twitter conversation is what I said to Rich and I was honest with podcast is you are the for me, you're the antidote for the cynicism and the nihilism and the negativity of the internet because what you are broadcasting as a human being is positivity and light and growth and humility. And I just love everything that he's putting out there. And Rich was a, I know there's other people who do this, but for me was like, oh, there are corners of this internet where people are putting out rays of sunshine. Yes. And I think I really gravitated towards him because he was doing that. He was doing that. He is doing that. One of the things you said on that interview

was that Garden State, which came out 20 years ago, huge success, but in some ways, that kind of messed you up having that success. I don't know that I didn't mean to say that it messed me up. I was certainly not expecting it to have the global reaction that it had. And it caught me a little bit flat-footed because I thought my parents and the temple choir would see it. I didn't think everybody would see it.

But it's amazing. I've been here at TED one day and I probably had half a dozen people come up to me and say that's one of their favorite films. So it's a gift that keeps on giving and it brings me a lot of, what's that, you just work not this? Not this, yes. I think in some ways, I was so wide-eyed. I always say, I didn't know I didn't know.

I was so new to it. And I don't know that I could ever repeat that success. It was lightning in a bottle, you know. This was my closest attempt at being as authentic as that wide eyed young kid that wrote that movie was. A good person is, at least for myself, a return to trying to strip away some of the jadedness I experienced from learning about Hollywood,

and for better, for worse, for people who like what I make, getting back to something that was authentically vulnerable and raw. Do you ever have feelings of like, I'm never going to top that or never going to do anything that's going to hit that hard? Well, I'll tell you something that's factual is the drama at the box office is sort of a dying organism. So I can probably predict that I won't make anything that will have a theatrical box office like that. I don't know. Of course, I could choose to make something that does do theatrical business like that. And don't know. Of course, I could choose to make something that does do theatrical business like that.

And perhaps I will. Who knows which direction my life will go. But in terms of personal films like a good person like Garden State, I think we're witnessing the end of those as a theatrical experience. But I watched a good person on Amazon Prime and very much enjoyed watching it at home. Yeah. Is that nails on a chalkboard for you as a filmmaker? No, no, one has to listen. We have to evolve with the times. I think for people who love theaters, I love live theater as well. It's a passion of mine.

My father got me into a theater in New York. That's why I learned love movies. But I don't want to be a lulletite. I want to evolve with the times. And the times are saying that it seems that COVID may have been the last few nails in the coffin for certain types of films at the box office. If you look at all those awards movies from last year, they're wonderful, wonderful films. But the Overton window has shifted to those types of films are consuming at home now.

Yes. The window is actually gotten tighter in that there are fewer and fewer types of films that do well in a theater and they include usually men and types. Well, you have action, horror, kids movies, certain sort of zeitgeistee. Oh my God, you got to see this wacky comedy kind of things like that. There was the one about the killer doll, which I really enjoyed. It was hilarious. I saw it at home, but it was a box office success because it was, I guess it's sort of horror, but it was also a zeitgeisty meme kind of thing, you know?

But it's just been rolling with the times, you know? I think it is what it is. If my research is correct, you're writing your next film now, you're doing some writing. I've started something, yeah, I've started something new and it's in early stages, but I have a beginnings of something. I read that the writing process for you is pretty torturous and you need to have

accountability partners. Yeah. Can you walk me through that? I mean, I do know the solve. Don't you know that as a writer? Well, I mean, I hate writing, but I am actually really stubborn and disciplined, so I will do it.

I don't need accountability partners. I will do it, but I just hate it. Do you know any writers that love it? This is totally prejudice. So I apologize if this describes you what I'm about to say, but anytime somebody tells me they love writing, I feel like, oh, so you must be a bad writer. I don't know if that's true. All I know is that I always think of the Lawrence Cazden quote, being a writer is signing up to have a homework for the rest of your life. Yes.

Or what Philip Roth, when he was 84, and quit writing before he then died, he put up a sign on his computer that said the long struggle is over. I'm trying to be, to write more. You know, I act direct, I write, I produce, I find writing to be by far the hardest thing for me. And that's mostly due to getting one's butt in the chair and

just doing it. So I dreaded a bit, but then I love having written. Yes, yes. It's amazing feeling. When you finish something, when you finish something or when you read back something that you've created from scratch and you're proud of it and You send it to people that you respect and they say this is good work. It's the best feeling there is. Yes, so I agree it's like having homework for the rest of your life But to muscle something into the world that did not previously exist and would not exist if you hadn't thought of it It's an extraordinary. Absolutely, and also to then sit at a diner in New Jersey and watch Morgan Freeman across from Florence

Pew delivering the lines. It's just the highest high line. Amazing, amazing, that's absolutely amazing. But you see, even though you've had that high, you still need some sort of cattle prod to get your ass into the chair. I could never write a novel, but I imagine the people who have a successful novel go, oh my god, I can start from bottom of the mountain again.

It's hard. It's just mind-fuckery. Really, it's just battling your brain. But for some people like myself, that's hard. You're a good company or a bad company. I don't know, but I feel the same way. Is there something I should have asked you here but fail to ask you? That's a good question. Do you always ask that? I ask it a lot because I'm insecure. That's a good question.

No, I just wanna thank you, like I said, for, I don't know that all of your guests can say this truly and honestly, but I read your book before I knew your whole story. I knew you was a journalist and I read your book before I knew your whole story. I knew you as a journalist, and I read your book and it really was impactful to me and introduced meditation in my life. I saw you as a kindred spirit

because I know that you were battling anxiety and panic and I had battled that and it just felt like, gosh, if this could work for him and I didn't have a cocaine problem, thank God. But I thought if this could- Never too late. Hey, what are you doing tonight? Let's not drink.

Let's not drink and do both. No, but I really found you as a kindred spirit and I want to thank you because I'm living proof that you made a difference and continue to make a difference in people's lives. Thank you. This is an overused phrase, but that genuinely means a lot to me. I appreciate that. And I was really, and still I am trying to talk to people who are left out of the discussion, you know, on these types of issues, because usually it's our fault because I'm

talking about men now, or anybody as a skeptic, whatever your gender, the way meditation or spirituality or contemplative practices, or often that conversation is held in terms that people like us are tempted to shut down. And I really, we're doing ourselves a disservice by ignoring this stuff. And so I'm trying to just be a bridge. Well, you are a bridge. And I think it's helpful for people to hear

that you can start with five minutes, one minute. Or you can start with one minute, absolutely. And also, don't think you're gonna feel it necessarily. You might have a little bit of mind quiet, but like we were talking about the challenge, try 10 minutes every morning for a week. And I bet you'll feel it. I do.

Like if I fall off the wagon and then I do 15 minutes every morning for five days, I do genuinely feel a greater sense of calm that week. Thank you for doing this. Thank you. Congratulations. It's like a therapy session. Well, you know, thank you for watching the movie. My pleasure. I enjoyed it. And I recommend everybody watch that movie. Yeah, you can rent it now anywhere you rent movies. It's called a good person. And remind everybody of the name of your podcast, fake doctors. Fake doctors, real friends, is a Scrubs rewatch podcast. I do with my best friend, Donald Faeson, who played Turk on the show, and we are almost done sadly.

We're running out of episodes, but we've watched almost every episode of Scrubs, and then we go on incredibly long random tangents. It's really about our friendship and our sense of humor, but we do aspire to at least make it through, basically going through an episode of the show each episode of the podcast. Awesome. Thanks.

Thank you, Dan. You're free. That was great. It was great. Thanks again to Zach. Love hanging out with that guy. Thank you as well to the good folks at TED. As I mentioned, we recorded this in person at the TED conference in Vancouver a few

months ago. Check out TED's podcasts, which include the TED radio, hour, and TED Talks daily. They also have two shows with my man Adam Grant. One is called rethinking and the other is called work life. They've got a ton of shows. Go check them out. Thanks to you for listening. Go give us a rating or a review that really helps us. Also as I mentioned at the top of the show, we'd love to know whether upping the cadence

of episodes is a good thing or a bad thing or neither nor in your opinion. And thank you, most of all, to the awesome people who make this show. 10% happier is produced by Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justin Davy Lauren Smith and Anderson, DJ Cashmere is our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor and Kimmy Regler is our executive producer, scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure over at Ultraviolet Audio and we get our theme music from the great Nick Thorburn of one of my favorite bands, Islands. They have a new record coming out, you can already hear one of the songs. If you want to go check that out, wherever you listen to your music, we'll see you all on Monday.

For Sleep Week, we're doing a two-part series on Sleep. The first episode is with my friend and former colleague, Diane Misedo, who wrote a whole book, but her experience is dealing with insomnia, and it's just filled with actionable advice. Hey, hey prime members, you can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen

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