Test Match Special - McCullum – I want to be challenged by KP.

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

We hear from England white ball coach Brendon McCullum.Mark Chapman is joined by Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell and Steven Finn to look back on the Test summer, look ahead to the winter and discuss what England want to get out of the white ball games with Sri Lanka as Kevin Pietersen joins as a specialist mentor.We also hear from the ECB National Club Champions Shepherds Bush.

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It's something you feel on every drive. With the choice of powerful mild hybrid and plug-in hybrid engines, Ranger River Sport responds instantly, bringing unbridled power and precise handling. It's a perfect balance. Explore more atrangeover.ca. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. We reflect on England's test summer, maybe the summer as a whole, although there's still some stuff to go.

Obviously, England has a T20 series against Sri Lanka coming up. So we'll hear from Brendan McCollum, who's been talking about Kevin Peterson's new role. We'll also hear from Shepard's Bush Cricket Club after they became National Club champions. Stephen Finn, Phil Tuffnell and Michael Vaughn are with us. We'll get on to where England are at the end of. this summer, certainly test-wise in a moment. I do feel, I don't know what you think, Michael, that it has been, from the ashes of the winter

all the way through to now, I have found it a very confusing period for the sport, I'll be honest. And I've said this before, for a sport I love, I'm not sure how much I've really enjoyed the last eight or nine months, really. Yeah, I mean, you could probably go back the last year. Yeah. You know, the last test against India at the Oval,

where England should have won that game. They should have won the Series 3-1, and obviously Australia happened. It was a decent T20 World Cup, and then a bit of chaos at the start of the summer with a victory against New Zealand at Lourdes, and obviously the incident with Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes, five new players the week after at the Oval.

New Zealand started to play. The Keepers stood up. Matt Henry got a few wickets. Well, he got plenty at the Olin. Then we went to Trent Bridge and what happened on that fourth after. afternoon. Well, no one saw that coming. The Pakistan series, England have played some decent cricket, but Pakistan have been so poor that I think after tonight, Chappas, I don't think we'll talk

about that series again, to be brutally honest. That's the honest truth. It's all about South Africa, the two tests in Bangladesh, and obviously the ashes next summer. So I'm with you. I can't sit back. I love cricket. I love all formats of the game, but this last few months, it's, it's been a bit chaotic. We feel there's a bit of sense coming back with the leadership group changing, but we'll have to wait and see because you can't judge an England side

against a team like Pakistan. Where are you with everything, Phil? I'm a little bit with you as well. I'm just going to throw into the mix the pitches that we played on as well, which were doing all sorts, considering we had a really sort of nice hot summer as well. I haven't seen a spinner.

Listen, there have been. some plus points we can see little building blocks being put in place the four seamers look to have done a pretty decent job you know so that you know the wicket keeping perhaps of of Jamie Smith and Jordan Cox and there are little things that you can pick out from it but I'm with you you know it has just been sort of one of those summers well and also another thing yet we lost to New Zealand which we should have as well you know so you're right though it's just been one of those summers that you sit back and go like where are we going to South Africa, not really sure.

Yeah. So is this very much three confused middle-aged men, Philly, or are you... I mean, I take great offence at that, chappo. I'll be honest. What, do you want to... I'm 37, mate, him. No, no, no. I'm saying me, Phil and Michael are the three confused middle-aged men.

Are you going to bring some youthful, well, youthful-ish excitement to it? Oh, no, I think... It's just doing weird, isn't it? Weird. That weird is, weird is that. I feel like there's nothing, I feel like there's nothing with which to anchor my opinion of where anything is at. That's I suppose what I feel. Yeah. And the question marks, especially in that last test match, I didn't cover this last game at Edgebaston. I was just watching from afar. But when England were put under pressure in that test match, a few old cracks started to appear. So it kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it, what might have happened if we'd have had a more competitive second series of the summer? There are the building blocks there.

I'd love seeing those four fast bowlers in unison bowling together. But then that begs the question, what happens when we play in Bangladesh or if we need a spinner in South Africa? what does the balance of that lineup look like? So, yeah, I think we leave the summer with just as many questions as we started, just very different ones. So when Stephen Fleming sort of takes over and he arrives in the next few days, and he sits down, let's say he gets a sheet of paper and does, right, positives on one side and negatives on the other.

What's top of his positives and what's top of his negatives? Do you think, Stephen? Well, I think top of the positives is those four, fast bowlers, the way that they've operated together, I think has been really, really good to see. I think the emergence of Jordan Cox is, to me, when you watch players, you watch players and you think he looks like a test cricketer. I watched Jordan Cox bat right from the very first test match he played, even in that New Zealand series, the chaotic New Zealand series. And you watched him, you thought that he just looks like someone who is made to play test cricket,

whether that's at three or six or as a wicket-keeper. I don't know, but he looks as though he is ready to play in that first 11. So the two big ones for me from the summer are those two things. Yeah, it's just a bit of a weird one, isn't it? I'm still concerned with the balance of the side. It's obviously that they want to go with this four-seamer. And, you know, does Sam Curen then all of a sudden have a part to play? That if they want to get a fourth, I mean, I think if he hadn't have been injured,

I think Sam Cullen might have come in to that side. So that begs the question of sort of like, was that a little bit of luck or was that sort of by design? We're not quite sure. I keep going on about it, but I just want to see a spinner. You never see a world-class size without a spin bowler. I agree with Finney about Jordan Cox. We're in a little bit of stook there in the last game.

I think two for two, nought for two or something like that. And we've been crying out for people to, realized situations and bat accordingly and he did exactly that he tucked up against mohammed abas who was the threat he played him nicely he played him straight didn't try to you know throw too many punches back and then got into it with joe root and then got us over the line quite comfortably when there was a bit of a wobble so yeah there's a few things james smith as i said earlier's keeping looks to have come on pretty well under sarah taylor but i just think i think stephen fleming coming into this it is

He's in quite a good place. For a start of, they've won a series, 3-0, which is great. Everyone's feeling up, everyone's feeling buoyant after a little bit of sort of like total chaos. And so he's got a good place to start, and then he can just start putting his little bits and pieces and his input into it. What do you think, Michael, is his biggest positive and biggest negative? And then we'll get into stuff like batting line up and spinner and so on and so forth. I think the biggest positive for me is just one player, and that's Olly Robinson. We were crying out in the winter in Australia for a tone setter. England didn't pick him.

They didn't pick him last summer. They'll say it wasn't quite up to fitness. But you go back to that test match at Trent Bridge when the chaos happened on day four. Ollie Robinson was fit that week and England opted to go without him because they felt the conditions were a little bit too flat. I think they've got to look beyond that. He's a wonderful bowler. You know, his record now speaks for itself. His record clear in the UK.

is exceptional. We haven't seen a great deal of him overseas. We've seen him in Pakistan and he did a decent job there. I think he is the linchpin of this attack. I mean, the other three have a bit more pace. You've got the difference of Josh Tongan's action. You've got Joffrey who can get it around 90. Obviously, Gus Atkinson's been around for a few years now

and Bowls are a bit skittier. But I think the tone of Ollie Robinson at the start of it in is going to be so important. I mean, I just, we were talking on Test Match Special, a few days ago with Simon Mananaggers throughout the winter it was all of short and wide

Travis had off to a flying start that was pretty much in every test match so I think Olly Robinson I mean Jordan Cox I agree

he looks at an international quality player I'm sure he'll be around for a long period of time because he's got the class and he's a bit of

utility player can play in different positions but I think he should stay at number three he's earned the right to stay there just at the start

of the South Africa series but I just think Olly Robinson is the standout He has been absolutely exceptional for England throughout the summer. And I'll tell you something, Chappas, that then, that's a positive. You haven't got to play, you haven't got a bowl 90 miles an hour. You can be a very skillful bowler and a very skillful batter.

You haven't got to throw punches with the bat and knock people's heads off with the ball. I can just see a little bit of sense coming back to cricket, and especially this England side, that you can use your skill, and I think that then translates through county cricket. So I think there's a big positive for county cricketers from this summer. Yeah, I mean, you go back over the year. You know, Scott Bowling in Australia, Baltimore, what, 82, 83. Matt Henry for New Zealand, around 82, 83.

Nathan Smith for New Zealand, 80 miles an hour. Mohammed Abbas, 78 miles an hour. Nowley Robinson, bowling, or near on 80 miles an hour consistently, if that so. I do think we talk about the balls. Finney, well more qualified than me to talk about the ball. but they look like they're doing it a little bit more than we've seen in previous summers. But it's that consistency I know as a batterer. If you're being asked to press forward and play a forward defence on a regular basis,

I'm vulnerable because all dismissals come into play. As soon as the ball comes down at a decent lick and there's a bit of width on offer, you can just throw your bat at the ball and the ball flies to all parts. So that consistency level, which Olly Robinson has brought this summer, Mohammed Abras has bought, Matt Hembris, bought Nathan Smith, has bought with a keeper stood up, It's a real threat in test match cricket. Another positive with Joe Root being there at the end getting not out

out because I was watching him, particularly when he got out LBW in the first things, I thought, oh no, the Gremlin's will start to come in. The skipper's got out LB2 eight or nine times in his last 11 innings. And that not out for Joe Root will do in the world of good going into South Africa in the winter. Mike, can I just ask you a quick question? Well, you know, those 70s sort of 8 mile an hour, 80 mile an hour bowl, with the keeper stood up and everything. They were the bowlers that I kind of liked.

What's changed? I can't understand it. Okay. Are we using you as a batsman as a barometer here? Okay. I'll tell you what it is, and I know where you're coming from, and I don't know if Finney's in the same boat,

but I think you might. You know that if it's coming down at 90 mile now, you can get hurt. So you're feeling threatened of getting, I didn't fear getting hurt, but I wanted pace because I could deflect pace. Against 78 miles an hour, real consistent line and length bowling, I know I can get out to that. And I can get out at LBW, I can get out bald, I can get out caught behind,

or I can play a bad shot and make a mistake and get myself out. When you're facing people that are bowling really quick, only now and again you get Jaffers. Only now and again do you get absolute Jaffers, and you can deflect the ball. Of course they can get you at any stage, but I just think these wobbles seen bowlers, they challenge your forward press

and bring in all the dismissals and most top order players, they fear getting out rather than fear getting hurt. You're in the other tank suffers. You just fear getting hurt. Well, to be honest, I'm with him on that. I'm with him on that. Maybe that's where I was going wrong

all those years. I was worried about getting hurt. Philly, were you worried about getting hurt? always yeah exactly you're the odd one Michael God

yes I've hit the ball in the air and asked for it to be caught before when someone was bowling quick so it's never pleasant when you're back

down the order against those guys who are quick I think just one more point on Robinson as well as he controls everything he just doesn't

bowl bad balls you watch your spell and he doesn't get cream through the through the covers for four doesn't bowl big horrible clip balls

and release pressure So there's always pressure when he's bowling, and that helps you as a bowler at the other end. I love bowling with bowlers who created pressure at one end because it meant that then the batter might like to take more risks at the other. So the way that they've complemented each other, led by Robinson in particular this year, has been excellent and something that Fleming should grab hold of

until they got into spinning pitches, then I don't know what they do. Yeah, he's getting his wickets at eight, Philly, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's just what? And the thing is, I did hear someone say that, you know, there's 20 bowls in county cricket that could have done a similar thing. That's absolute nonsense.

It really is because he is world class. You know, those numbers don't lie. He's now got over 100 wickets at under 20 apiece. I'm sorry, when you're getting 100 wickets in test match cricket, you don't get them by default. You don't get them by being fortunate. You might get 20 to 30 wickets by being a little bit fortunate. But once you start getting over 100 test match wickets

and you're averaging under 20, you're a serious bowler. It's, yeah, 104 wickets at an average of 19.25. This summer, 28 wickets at an average of 9.32. I'll come back to conditions. I'll come back to conditions in just a moment. But if you look at CrickViz, and this is, these stats may be geeky, but it shows what's happening out there. So this summer saw a more seam movement of 0.9 degrees per board,

than last year. Yeah, but it all counts. And the average speed of a wicket-taking ball was nearly two miles an hour slower than last year. So as a bowling geek, Finney, when you hear that what is that telling you? Is that tell you something about the ball, the pitchers? Batsman not being particularly good this summer?

A bit of everything. What would you focus on? I think a bit of everything. We've clearly had a couple of very poor pitches, haven't we where the ball has done loads and kept low, which clearly stacks the odds in your favour for those numbers as a bowler. I think what I haven't seen much of this year is balls being changed. Usually in a test match, you'll see that the umpire come out with his,

his ball bag and he's got his, the new ones in there. And the replacement balls, he brings those out in order to swap the ball. When it goes soft, when it goes out of shape, when it's got. like the triangular corner, but on it, when you're looking at it, thinking that's out of shape, it doesn't go through the umpire's hoop. And, and, and yeah, they, they bring new balls out. But we haven't seen that at all this summer. And, and that's strange. It says to me that the ball is is remaining harder for longer, which then once it, once it stays harder for longer and that seam stays harder for longer, the movement of the pitch is more exaggerated and it does it for longer

in the innings. Um, so, you know, I think that a, um, once it stays harder for longer. Um, so, you know, I think that combination of those things and also just the skill of those wobble scene bowlers with the keeper up to the stumps, pinning the batters back in the crease, not allowing them to get out to the ball in order to get outside the line for LBWs or to be able to negate that movement on the front foot. I think a combination of all of those things is what has caused the bowlers to be in the absolute ascendancy this year. Can I just say, well done, Stephen. Well, well done. You go through the heart, despite the childish. Despite the childish. Do you know what, Michael? It's a suitcase, not a ballroom.

I know. I realise that, as I said, it's because when you practice, you use bags instead of suitcases. But as I said it, it was, yeah, I apologise. But you did very well, no, you did very well because there was a lot of childish giggling and you made your point and got through it. I tell you something also as well,

and you're very well done. what I was going to say also as well is I think that the batting as well the technique as he said keepers stood up and seems to just change the game it used to happen all the time not that long ago but I think that the batters have struggled with that particular technique and I think that it's found you know top class batters a little bit wanting I think they're going to go I mean look as you say we mentioned joe root England's finest he's struggled with it as well and it's just this little slight difference in tactics and what have you. And it's just thrown them a little bit.

I think it's going to take them a bit of time just to get the handle on it. Yeah, I mean, if you look, six test matches in the summer, we've had one century. That's from Ben Ducky against New Zealand at Trembridge. But you can't tell me against Pakistan, all those players that got to 60 and 70, that they were outdone by the pitch. They were done because they weren't ruthless enough to go and get the big hundred themselves. And that's one of the problems going forward is that this batting line, is very dangerous, it's very talented,

but until they earn the right to go and get the big scores, and how do you do that? You have to go through a few tough times. You can't just throw your hands at everything. You can't just think that you're in when you're on 60 and 70. And you look at a lot of the dismissals around 60, 17, I think Harrybrook got to 91, Henley against Pakistan.

They were battered errors. There weren't many Jaffers around that time. And that's just individuals taking the responsibility to go on and get the big scores. To beat South Africa in South Africa, I can't see them beat in South Africa without players getting hundreds. You know, individuals will have to get hundreds the same next year against Australia. So they've got to train the brain pretty soon to make sure that this batting lineup maximises their potential without just giving it away after 60 or 70 runs. Vawney, what is it about good players struggling with the keeper standing up?

because clearly Joe Root's been pinned quite a number of times LBW. Like, why is it so hard for really, really outstandingly good players to adjust to something that's so simple? I'll be honest with it. I probably faced David Masters and maybe Dimmie Masquerainers for Hampshire with the keeper stood up. And I used to just try and bat a bit leg side to make sure I was playing with the bat.

And if they beat me on the outside edge, well, I just think, okay, I can sneak it to the keeper or to the cordon. I think a lot of these players are covering their outside edge. So that nitbacker becomes the real threat. Joe Root in his last innings, where he got six, John, and out, Mohameda Bass, bowled an eight over spell. And I don't recollect seeing Joe Root getting hit on the pads once.

He just went a little bit more leg-side. He played some nice forward defense shots. He didn't score freely against Mohammed Abbas because he didn't bowl many bad balls. But he never really looked like he was going to get out, and the ball was still nipping. You know, he played and missed at a few balls, so he got beaten on the outside edge.

He got a little bit fortunate where he snicked one through the cordon. If it had been taken, he would have had a few budges because he's covered his LBW and now he snick one just outside off stump and he'd have been, oh, do I cover for that or do I cover for the LBW in South Africa?

I think it's as easy as that, and it's not easy, obviously, but Joe Roots worked away by going a bit more leg side and I honestly think that's what most players will start to do to cover that nitbacker because the nitbacker brings in LBOR, It brings in bold. And if you get done by one that kind of nips on off someone nips away from you,

you know, that's a decent cherry. So I would be covering the LBW in the balls because that's been the major threat. Is it? Mike, sorry, what are badges? I've never heard of that. Well, you've got plenty of them. Might me tell you that. What are they, at noughts?

Well, you just didn't you, you know, when they budge you around your head, you know. Is it? It's it. Thank God it was that. If it's a fad, Michael, do you think? Stuart Broad's been vocal about it. He doesn't want to see it in the ashes next summer. So is it a fad or do you think it will become a valid weapon for a bowling attack?

I think it's absolutely a valid weapon. And I don't understand why Stuart wouldn't want to see it because I find it intriguing. I really do. I mean, I love quick bowling. I love the bounces. I love a bit of cheer music. I love how players can cope with that. This is a different skill that's arrived in the game

and I think it's really questioning a lot of technical players and we've said for a few years how many players have actually got a solid forward defence. There's not many. Not many in the whole game around the world have got a solid forward defence. Well, this tactic requires you to have one. So I love it.

I think we'll see a lot of it in the ashes. I think Australia will certainly be looking at England's batting line-up as were the likes of Oliver Robinson look at Australia. batting line because Steve Smith, Travis said, their key players. I think you can get them with the keeper stood up, challenging their forward press.

And I think Michael Nees has got Boland will certainly be doing the same to the lives of Joe, Ruth, Harry, Brook and Co. So I think it's great for the game that there's a new kind of tactic, a new piece of skill that's been delivered. It's now up to the batters to try and come up with an answer or two.

It's not the first time that it's happened. I mean, you go back into the day. I mean, we were talking to Bumble, weren't we? Was it Ken Shackleton or, you know, I come in a little bit before my time, and Balik Bedser, they used to trundle up and, you know, hit the top of off-stump ball after ball with the keeper stood up. So it's not something that's new that's happened. It's just something that's re-emerged as a tactic. And the other thing about that is that you've now got to have a bona fide wicket-keeper. You know, you've got to have a wicket-keeper. And I love

watching that. I mean, some of the skills. that have been on the show. And we mentioned Jordan Cox and Jamie Smith. They're getting better at it now. But, you know, you see that skill on show standing up to 80 mile an hour. It's, I think it's great. I think it's good for the game.

Well, I think Jamie Smith actually showed a lot of resolve this year to come off the back of the way the ashes went for him to then be asked to stand up to the stumps in tricky conditions and do it without any, I can't really remember any periods where he was dropping them or looked uncomfortable and that's something that I think

for him to have done that off the back of the way that the winter went was has been really impressive he rediscovered his batting form as well it felt as they was more imposing again as a batter and making good decisions so I think he's had a good summer on the whole headlined by that wiki keeping up to the stumps

that Tuft has referenced there yeah I think you're right I'll put you know I mentioned Dolly Robbins and being the real plus, but I will say Jamie Smith's keeping because every morning I've seen him on that field with Sarah Taylor catching tennis ball after tennis ball, doing loads of drills. It reminds

me of Matt Pryor back in the day when he worked with Bruce French and he was out there getting down and dirty, Alex Carey in the winter. We were crying out for some drills in the winter. The England seemed like they were practicing before play. Well, it was a little bit clubby for most of the winter.

And we didn't see Jamie Smith do these drills. He's come out this summer. He's worked hard and his keeping's been up there. I mean, Alex Carey, you could argue, was the standout in terms of his skill, what he delivered in the ashes. Well, I think Jamie Smith's done it equally as well this summer. So it deserves a lot of credit, as does Sarah Taylor for the work she's putting. Does it feel to you, Stephen, as though it is a, I appreciate Phil's point that nothing is new,

but does it feel like in a game that for many, many years, bat has dominated ball and bat has had different techniques and new, shots and this and the other, that this is something where bowlers can fight back a bit? Well, yeah, it makes me want to dust my bowling boots off every now and again. When I saw a couple of those pitches at Lord. And trundle in.

Yeah. I just think it's fascinating how, and this is why I love test cricket is because it just throws so many different weird things at you. 18 months ago, would you have thought that we'd be sat here on a phone in talking about the wicketkeeper standing?

up to the stumps to 80 mile in our bowling. No, but it throws these these amazing challenges at you as a player. It questions your intuition as someone watching it because you're there watching it, having played test cricket thinking, exactly what Stuart Broad saying. This doesn't feel like test cricket with the keeper stood up to the stunts, but it evolves. It changes. It goes through periods in different directions. So, yeah, it's, I don't think it's a fad. I think that as long as the pitches are behaving as they are and batters techniques are as they are, as bowlers, you work out how to take wickets. And at the moment, it seems to be the premier way to take wickets in the test format, especially in the UK.

And also, a balanced attack. That is what cricket has really been about. You know what I mean? It's been about, you know, a chap that can do that. You want your 90 miles an hour. And we've talked about, you know, the plush. Is England seen to have that a little bit now? I'm a little bit, you know, I wouldn't mind.

but they can swing it as well. They all can swing it a little bit, but the real challenge is those flat pitches and better teams. Can Olli Robinson do that when not much is happening on a hot day in South Africa? Well, Phil, all I'll say to that is on the third day where Razor Ollah, who was exceptional on his debut for Pakistan, started to smoke it to all parts with Mohammed Abbas.

If you look at the figures that day, Olly Robinson still had tremendous figures. Yeah. You know, was it two for 40, whereas the rest were going at four. five and a half sixes. So I think what he'll offer, even when he's not probably charging through the top order or the middle order, I think he's gonna offer your control.

And you ask any captain, what do you want is control? And sometimes control comes from your spinner, sometimes your control comes from your medium quicks. And I think that's what the tactic will bring is a control element to the captain's seat. I'll be intrigued to see, when you start talking about selection now, you generally just pick your best bowl

don't you, you kind of work out who they are. I think you've now got to start thinking, if Olli Robinson's not in the team, who's going to be the Olly Robinson? Because you're going to need that tactic covered. There's no point in picking another 90-mile-an-hour, 87-an-hour bowler, because, you know, Jamie Smith's not going to be able to come up,

and there will be times in South Africa. I mean, the ball will probably bounce a bit more, so it might not work as effectively as it has done here. But there's going to be times in South Africa where that tactic's going to work again. So when you start picking your side, you know, for Olly Robinson missing out, will it be Sam Cuck,

will it be Matthew Fisher. George Hill from Yorkshire's having another stellar season. His style of bowling now comes into the equation because he balls with the keeper stood up. He gets a bit of wobble see. I'm not saying he's going to go to South Africa, but that style of bowler all of a sudden, probably running in with a little bit more glee

knowing that they've got a chance of playing test match cricket. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Going back to sort of how we started this bit with talking about what Fleming's to-do list was and positives and negatives, what is the balance of this team for South Africa? What are you doing about the spinner? What is your top seven?

Because the bowling attack, the pace side of the bowling attack, as we've all spoken about, kind of at the moment, takes care of itself. But there are so many questions. around those other areas, partly due to balance and partly through who's missing through injury and how you rejig it, aren't there? Yeah, well, they need a spinneroocombat.

They need a spinner who combat, I think nowadays, especially in test match cricket, I'm loath to say it, but I don't think that you can have a spinner who's not great in the field and can't bat perhaps seven or eight, and that's what they're desperately looking for. And then all of a sudden the all rounder comes into it. Do you do get the spinner in by perhaps playing current?

They've at the moment sort of like gone a little bit with Dan Lawrence, and they're trying to sort of make him into a bit of bits and pieces. And perhaps then you've got a bit of Joe and Bethel if he plays and what have you. But I'm slightly concerned about the whole spinner angle actually because it's not seeming to be addressed. You know, you keep seeing Bashir on the team sheet at all these test matches and you kind of know full well that he's not going to get a go. You know, you can't even get in the Metro Bank side for Derby, you know, or something or whatever. I think that the staff was knocking about.

So I am concerned about that because Bangladesh coming up, they might play two, they might even play three spinners, you know. And you've got to be able to nowadays. It's become a little bit like the keepers spot, you know, you've got to be able to get yourself in there. you know, and bat nicely and field nicely nowadays. So Mike, what do you think? You're a skip. I think South Africa is quite an easy one. I don't think you're going to need a spinner.

At the focal point of your attack, I'd go with the same formula that we've had throughout the summer. I think the Centurion ground and the wanderers will be very seamer-friendly, so you'll need your four quicks. And Dan Lawrence will be fine at number six. You know, I guess the big if will be, does Jacob Bethel come straight, back into the side. I personally don't think he should. I think Jordan Cox has earned the right

and Jacob will need a bit of cricket. If he has a load of cricket and is in great form, of course you have that conversation when that comes around in December. But I don't know how much cricket he will have had by then. Bangladesh is a different story because you're going to need spin. Look, Cape Town now and again, you can get spinners into the game. But I think the three test matches in South Africa, I think this formula will be fine. The two test matches in Bangladesh, I think you've got to take what you believe is your best spinner. Marcus North recently came out and said

that Shoebushir is still England's number one spinner. I totally disagree. I think Jack Leach is England's number one spinner by distance. You look at what he does for Somerset on a regular basis. Yes, he's left arm, but if you've got spinning wickets in Bangladesh, I want someone that's just going to land it on a leg because the pitch does the rest

for you. And Jack Leach is that bowl of for England. And if we start talking about sense in the England team, and I believe there is a little bit more sense in terms of the way that they operate and the way that they select teams, you'd just pick your best spinners. You know, someone like Don Bess, you look at what Don Bess is doing. 28 years of age, four or five years ago.

He didn't look ready at all. He had a little bit of a spelling in the English. I think he's a better cricket now, a lot better than when they picked in the first side. So I don't think you should be ruling out people like Don Bess, certainly not Jack Leach. And I personally would pick them over Shoebyshire because I just don't think Shoev's done quite enough. He's played a bit for Derbyshire. and what harm is it going to do to show Bashir?

If you went to South Africa, didn't play any cricket, and then you throw him into a couple of tests in Bangladesh, why don't get him some cricket? Try and get him some cricket, so he's bowling, so then he puts himself in a position to potentially play or go to Bangladesh. But as we sit here now, if you ask me, who are the best winners in England to go to playing Bangladesh to win that test series, I personally wouldn't have Shoy Bashir near that party.

Stephen? Yeah, when I think about the balance of the team and how you fit all these players, it's like a Rubik's Cube where there's one square out on each side and you kind of you turn it over, you think, well, I've cracked it. Oh, but we're short in this area. It always feels like because of that lack of a front-front-line spinner that's nailed on to be in the 11, like a Graham Swan, who was a one in a million, wasn't he, really, for England. It feels like you're always trying to hedge your bets or cover yourself elsewhere.

I wonder if, I don't think they'll do it in South Africa, but if they do find themselves on a pitch where you need a spinner, not in Bangladesh, but in South Africa, if they find themselves on a dry wicket like Durban, that can be good for seamers, but then spins later on, Moen Ali got wickets there when we won in 2016, whether they might look to play with three seamers under spinner

as their four bowlers. When I played for England, we played as a four-man attack the entire time. It was me, Broad Anderson and Swan. I wonder whether with the control that Robinson gives you within that unit, whether they might think about balancing the side that way, without feeling as though they're having to cut short elsewhere. Finney, who's your spinner going to be?

Well, I personally, I went for the selector job, but then I was interviewed for the selector job, and Jack Leach was my number one spinner when I was asked my test team, because I agree with you. I think that he is experienced. I think that he's had up. ups and downs, but he has been a consistent performer for a long time. And the numbers back that up in the domestic system as well, don't they?

So, yeah, and if you were looking for a bowler to, a finger spinner to bowl someone out on the last day, Leach would probably be your go-to in England, I think. Yeah, I mean, this isn't having a go at show, I think he's done pretty well. But, I mean, we were saying it the other day, this has been one of the hottest summers we've had on record, you know and you're not going to get any drier pitches than the ones that were here and the spinner didn't even come into the equation so you know you start thinking well is this a bit of a dying art you know unless that leggy comes on or that mystery bowler who can wop it at seven and eight i just don't know i don't know how a spinner sort gets into the side unless it is a

Bangladesh series which you almost then complete it's a completely different kettle of it's like a you're going to play a completely different formation in Bangladesh. So, you know, that's not going to affect the Ashes series because it's completely different conditions. But it's just making sensible decisions and picking experienced players to make sure that you go in there. All right, they'll save the picture of Bashir. We're going there to win,

and that's his opportunity because the ball's going to be spinning. I just see him as a young player that needs a lot more cricket. And I think it was serving this cricket better if they just took him out of the system just for a while. So he could go on the lines. He could get loads of bowling, play a few games of cricket, play a bit more for Derbyshire.

I'd love to see him play the whole season for Derby. Just play the whole season, see how many wickets you got, play another season. And look, he's only, what is he, 22? Yeah. Yeah, we're talking about, Graham Swan didn't come into his own

until he was 27, 28. You know, that's when he started to play for England. So finger spinners and spinners in general, they generally take a little bit of warming up. You don't need to rush them. I completely agree. And I think that's when you look at it, as someone who liked to bowl and felt as though I got better when I bowled.

Spin bowling is an art, right? Being able to vary your pace with the same arm speed is an art. And to allow Bashir the space to be able to explore that out of the spotlight and learn that craft out of the spotlight without people having these conversations as we are now, I think it was a great opportunity for them this summer for us to be sat here now saying, wow, look at how much Bashir has developed. Look at what he has done in the domestic game to begin banging the door down

to be able to learn that craft that is spin bowling. I mean, tough as it, it's art, right? Learning how to vary your pace with that same arm speed. You can't just do it on the job. No, absolutely. And it's just about being happy with yourself, knowing where you are at your game and that experience of having a bowl

in different conditions and different situations. It's the whole raft of things. No disrespect, Finney, but you know, you used to run in, try and knock the reds off, and that was where it finished a little bit, wasn't it? But no disrespect. No, you know what I mean. You know, there is so much more to sort of just being young and fit and 21 and being able to steam in and bowl aggressively.

You know, there's, you know, I wasn't being rude there, Steve. You know, it's a bit like, you know, there's a lot more that then goes on in your brain and you have to have that body of work behind you. And I completely agree with you, Steve. It is one of the difficultest things to do at test match cricket. To learn your craft at test match cricket is very, very tough, and especially for a spin bowler. And particularly in recent times within an England group

that just don't bat long enough for the pitches to wear. Yeah. You know, Phil, don't you? You know, Phil, don't you? As a spinning, you want your bat has to bat for so much time so the footholes start to develop. This test game is played at fast forward. I think it's the least amount of spinovers in the UK since what is all, say, tough as it's going back many generations.

It's just no spin-bimbled this summer. And that's a shame. I mean, I hope, look, the one thing I'll agree with Stuart Broad is that if the keeper stood-up tactics replaces spin in test cricket, I'm going to be very disappointed. Well, there you go. So you're saying, you're saying Ollie Robinson could be the spinner. the stuff.

It kind of is, isn't he? Is your holding end bowler when conditions get a little bit flat? You know, there's no spin out there against these plays these days that just reverse sweep

and do all the tricks, bop it out the ground. I think as a captain, if I'm trying to gather some control, I'd probably trust Ollie Robinson with the keeper stood up to bowl a few more dots and a tweaky finger spinner

like yourself, Phil. You know when... I think you might be right, Mark. You know when you talk about that, You know you talk about that interview for the selector's job, Finney? Just going back to what you said there. Do you, when they ask you what your test team will be, do you think they're looking for you to think outside the box at all?

And so a, not a random name, but maybe somebody a little bit different comes into your test 11. What do you think they're looking for when they ask you that question? I don't know, whatever I didn't do, I suppose. But when you think about it, do you think, oh, maybe I should put, you know, somebody slightly different in there to show them X or Y? Well, I suppose they're kind of looking for you

to have a method of the way that you would select players, whether that's using your eyes or statistics. I think it was an opportunity in that to kind of suggest to them what your style would be and how you would go about looking at players that you think are of an international standard. I think that you can see an international player when you see them play for the very first time.

They look calm, they look assured, they look confident with what they're doing. There's a certain way they move their body when they're either batting or bowling or fielding that you watch them, you think that that's an international player that's ready for immediate selection. But then also I think behind that and the layers underneath that is who is the next cab off

the rank. You've got your eight or nine guys who are set in stone to be in that team. It's then working out the gaps or the people that might have slipped through the net to then work out who are the next people that could potentially be those international players. Yeah. So I think there are many different layers to it. And I think this is where Stephen Fleming's going to be very good, you know, very, you know, thoughtful, you know, captain himself. He'll, he'll be great for this England. I think he's going to be, he can be tough when he's going to be. when he wants to be but I think that he'll you know you know like this

Bangladesh team coming up you know what I mean you know perhaps in the past you know the four seamers would have all taken the wickets and everything and they would have all got on the all got on the plane to Bangladesh and perhaps three out of the four would have played you know and Bangladesh would have played four and we're all sitting there scratching the way it's going oh long that don't seem right you know what I mean but I think then Stephen Fleming will come in and I think he'll be very good at pinpointing all these different little things that Finney was just saying.

Let's hear from Brendan McCollum then. Of course, this is the first series that Kevin Peterson will be in his new role as a specialist mentor. So here is McCollum on how that all came about. Yeah, I rang Kev and said, do you want to come and help us challenge for a World Cup? And I think he was a bit shocked initially. And then over a couple of different conversations and catch-ups, obviously appreciative of how busy he is and how many.

opportunities he has in other walks of life out there. So I knew that it would be a bit of a stretch in terms of trying to get him to commit to us for the entire time. But look, he came back unbelievably enthusiastic and positive. And the energy he's brought to the group already has been immense. And I feel very privileged for us to be able to have him as a resource within our dressing room. He was obviously a brilliant cricketer. He viewed the game quite differently.

He was a winner. And he was a guy who left no stone on turn when it came to his preparation. operation and I think for us we're very lucky to have them as part of our support staff and a lot of these guys grew up watching Kev play and idolised him so as a coach you're trying to provide these guys with the best environment so that they can try and achieve what they want and adding Kev is certainly that he's somebody that has been somewhat critical of certain methods in the past have you managed to put that behind you two I have no problem with that I think that was one of the first things we talked about he said jeez oh so I was just I was criticising you a lot

not long ago, so I don't care about that. Some of it's fair and some of it would need some explanation. But I have no problem with that. I think it's healthy. When you create an environment where you're able to challenge, as long as you're always trying to think of what's right for the team and to try and help the team to achieve what you want, then there's no problem having that kind of challenging.

In fact, I actually mentioned to him. I see that's one thing I want him to do is not just bury himself in the batting per se, but look across the entire environment, look across how we run things and what we do and if there's anything you pick up, then just come and challenge me on it. And him and I get on well. We had natural respect playing against each other, and we spend a bit of time together in the last little while.

And I'm super excited to have them as part of our support staff as well. And speaking of how it's all going to work, what about Stephen Fleming, that relationship? And particularly when you look at the workload of players next year to huge events in the ashes and the work on. How is it all going to work? Yeah, well, first time, I'm really excited. for Flem to take over the test side as well.

He's obviously he's one of my best mates. We talk regularly. He's just like me, but better. And he'll do an amazing job. He's the right person to be able to take that team forward. And I'm delighted for the guys in the test side that they get the opportunity to have Flem as their coach because he's a great man,

but he's also an incredible coach and a great tactician as well. Very well planned, very meticulous. He likes to create environments which allow guys to succeed and ultimately win. I think from our point of view, we've been already we've been chatting around how we're going to try and manage some of the workloads of players and make sure we still get our best players available for the big series. And that'll be an ongoing conversation.

We'll sit down in the coming days and map out a bit of a pathway for a few guys. But naturally, guys can't play all year round. You can have to work out times that you can take him out of the physical duties of international cricket. freshen up and then other times that you have have them all ready to go. But they'll be easy conversations between two good mates with the motivation of what's right for English cricket.

What do you want to get out of three T20 matches with Sri Lanka in the middle of September, Michael? Three wins, simple as that. I mean, the Lions team absolutely pasted them at Chelmsford on Friday night. Sri Lanka in the middle of September. It's a bit chilly.

I can't imagine that that can be. really enjoying the conditions. I was just winning. I mean, Donald's going to make his debut, so great opportunity for him. I guess you're just looking at the talent pool growing, and if Donald can strike, he's a player that struck over 200 in the blast this season,

so he's in fine form. So I like that selection. I think it's good to pick players when they're full of confidence, but ultimately, it's just winning three games. Just win the three games, and obviously win the 50 over stuff as well. and try and I guess it's the, this split coaching of Fleming and McCollum's always going to be on watch

because it's never really worked that well, you know, across many teams. So it's always going to be, you know, who's getting the kind of players and how they're going to communicate and how they're going to make sure that they're managing the players work, work like going forward. But I would expect England to win all the games. I can't see Sri Lanka giving them too much of a game in these conditions.

Maybe, and maybe it is. Stephen, going back to what you talked about when putting selection together and from what Michael said there, it's also about finding who those next cabs off the rank are if they're needed. Yeah, Donald's someone that I'm really excited about watching actually because you look at the power at the top of the order for England. If anything, he enhances that with the way that he plays, he hits it in quirky areas.

So, yeah, fascinated to see how he does and really hope that he takes his opportunity. And then the Kevin Peterson effect, how he is going to fit into that environment is probably the undertone to this series. I think I like the move. I actually think that it's a really good thing. And the way that McCollum spoke about it, they're about wanting to be challenged. I think if you were to critique the, or one of the critiques of the test team over the last few years was that you could say it's been an echo chamber or has seemed to be an echo chamber from the outside looking in. where you're positively reinforced all the time.

Kevin won't do that. I played a lot with Kev at the beginning of my career. And he was never shy in coming forward if he didn't think something was being done correctly, whether that was practice or whether that was in preparation to play or decision making out in the middle. And it sounds like McCollum is encouraging him to do that role in this environment as well as a mentor or a coach,

which I think at a stage where the team is, number one in the world and they're doing well, it'd be really easy for them to say we've cracked it, we've sussed it, and that might be how they felt after two years of playing test cricket together. I think McCullough may have learned from his mistakes with that test team to say that now when things are going well is a really good time to introduce that kind of influence to the dressing room to make sure we're still moving forward. So I'm all for him. Tough as you were nodding along. No, no. Great shout. As you said, I think, I mean, Brendan's just speaks so well, doesn't he?

I don't know what I mean? He just comes across fabulously. Yeah, I'm for KP. What you did there say that there though, Steve, he was sort of, you know, and the underlying thing is Kevin Peterson. Well, he's a mentor. There is an opportunity that he might become sort of too big for the team, if you know what I mean.

They've got some very, very high profile coaches there, haven't they? You know, and, you know, I make you right, but that's the only little sort of granular sort of stuff that I might just be scratching my head saying, oh, okay, let's just see how that goes. But I think you're right. I think that Brendan has learned from his mistakes. And I think that that kind of person, Michael Peterson, just there to pull everyone up a little bit,

so long as it doesn't get too sort of like chaotic, I think there's a good appointment. For the final few minutes off Five Life cricket, we're going to talk about club cricket. More specifically, Sheppers Bush Cricket Club, who yesterday became ECB. be national club champions. Here's the moment they hit the winning runs. And if you've seen it across social media, we haven't embellished the sound effects there. There are hundreds of people who run on

when the winning runs are hit. Luke Matthews was at the crease at the time. Evening in Luke? Evening, Jan. Thanks for having on. No, thank you very much for coming on. Those scenes at the end, I mean, apart from the fact, it looks like you're playing in November.

the scenes are phenomenal. The Bush Army. They don't travel lightly. They don't go quietly. Yeah, it was great fun. It takes me back to listen to that. How many people were in the Bush Army then, do you think? I would say 250 travelling away,

which is a great turnout for a fairly small club, which was brilliant. How does that affect you playing? because I'm guessing you're not getting that many on a weekly basis? No, no, we've got the five or six that follows around, which are always appreciated. But it's nerves, but then it's also inspiring. They're in a club cricket situation where everyone's a volunteer and everyone pays to play.

They're the people who you do it for. It's not the heroes of the day, etc. It's watching the 60-year-old men cry at the end of, Denny's and finals, which was great fun. Yeah, brilliant. Tell us what it means then for the cricket club as a whole. And tell us that because club cricket's journeys to get to a final like this are never straightforward.

So what does it mean and what was the journey to get to that point? Yeah, we are, we sort of punch above our weight. We're a club on the up. We've got a thriving junior section. five men's teams, three women's teams. And I mean, every player pays to play and we have to coach on a Friday night for the juniors for free. It's what it's done for everybody around the club

that's brought everyone back together. And every walk of life was there yesterday in terms of anyone who supports the Bushroom all the way from a junior, all the way through to playing ladies cricket or community teams that we support locally. It's been a journey. there's been a lot of people on the way with us.

And, yeah, it's been top class from everyone involved throughout. Hello, mate. Congratulations. Well done. I've played against the bush on quite a few occasions. There was always a good social side down at the bush, wasn't there? You did go down there and have a really good sort of like community feel and everyone have a good time, didn't they?

We are. I think we're the most central Premier League club so we get a good social the boys give it a good go I think from reports I was in bed nice and early I think it was a 7am lockup of the club on a Monday morning

which gives you a bit of an insight into a Sunday night of 200 people coming back to Shepard's Bush after a Wormsley away win so yeah you've probably got a good taste of it what has the season been like before getting to obviously yesterday.

So it was the seventh game of knockout cricket. So nervous is how I would summarize it. It's just, it's constant nail biters. I don't know how much you've looked into it. But the last, that was the fourth game that we've won in the last over. We've chased every game. So we've taken our supporters through, through hell to chase everyone. We've lost five tosses out of those seven.

Luckily yesterday, Finn, our standing captain must have taken out a different coin because we did win it before the rain came down, so it was a good toss to win. But yeah, nervous throughout, great journey and knockout cricket. And club cricket brings the best out of a community club like ours. You have a kind of whimsical look on your face, Vorny? Well, I love it.

I love stories like that. I mean, I remember when I played for Chef for Collegiate in the 90s that they managed to get to the final and got the job done. And those moments and memories from playing in the first team down at Abedale sit with me as much as playing for Yorkshire and playing for England. That's actually where I learned the game. But it does feel anecdotally and what I hear from friends,

club cricket still thrives. I mean, you have to put a lot of work in, and it relies on volunteers and, you know, weather can be awful at times, although not this summer. but the community still thrives. It does. People rely on each other. It's friendships, it's people putting in extra hours that are completely unseen.

There's youth coaches, there's groundsmen, there's chairmen, there's chairmen and meetings that happen in January that makes a big difference. Club cricket, I would say, is people that are adding teams to their clubs all the time. So it is thriving. And it means an awful lot to a lot of people that have been around the club.

And county cricket and Middlesexecutive League cricket, for years and years and years. We've had hundreds of messages coming in about how it's played and the sort of the lasting memories that will give to the supporters and we won't forget it as a playing group. It's been fantastic. Well, congratulations again and thank you for your time this evening, Luke. Well done.

Cheers, Jess. Thank you. Thank you. That's Luke Matthews, who was at the crease when those winning runs were scored for Shepherd's Bush Cricket Club. Michael, Phil. Stephen, thank you. very much

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league This is 5 Live Sports It's all right to the lights

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