Rob Key on Carse, contracts, and England coaches
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00:58 You're listening to the TMS. podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. My name is Henry Moran. It's central contract day for England's men and managing director of England men's cricket. Rob Key joins us to discuss all things England. I'm alongside also cricket correspondent, Stefan Schemeltz,
01:21 as well as the former England opener, David Milan. So what about the top lines from this announcement? Well, it's a big list of players. We got 30 on central contracts, nine on development contracts. We'll have news on Briden Carson, his future, and also an interesting two-year deal for someone uncapped in Henry Crocom. Ollie Robinson also gets a deal for the first time since 2023. And within all of that as well, lots of interesting news around the coaching
01:53 and how that will work between the white ball side under Brendan McCullum and the red ball side under new test coach. coach Stephen Flemm. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Rob, thanks so much for joining the Test Match Special podcast. First and foremost, how do central contracts work? Well, there's a whole mechanism. They're meant to be forward facing.
02:17 There's a pot of money. We're not going to go into too much detail, but there's a pot of money and you try and work out how you're going to divvy that up. So if you only gave one contract out to a player, they would get the total pot of money. So you're trying to split that amongst what now, 30 players in that regard and nine development contracts. And what you're trying to do is basically go,
02:42 there's a couple of things, part of the strategy. You want to try and get the best talent, the best players committed to English cricket when there's a lot of opportunity for players now. But the other point, which I think is even more relevant, is that this gives us that whoever's on those contracts, tracks now. They get the resources of the ECB. They get all of the coaches that we have. It's a 12-month program, accepted that at times people will go off and play franchise cricket because that
03:11 might be better for their development in that regard. But really, we now control their program as much as possible. And that's really important. So when you look at, we look at someone like Josh Tong now, for example. And Josh Tong is bowling brilliantly. He looks like a real world. a class performer or not far off. But actually, for two years, he'd been injured at times, but he's been a part of, you know, along with Notts with Kevin Shine, he's had the Lions, he's had the Science and Medicine team, the bowling coaches that have got into this point.
03:47 And that's the real win for central contracts. In terms of who gets one year, who gets two years, who's making these calls? Is it you? Is it Marcus North? Is it between the head? coaches how does it all work? Yeah, all of the above there.
04:04 You know, where we sit around, we debate with the analysts, with science of medicine people, bowling coaches. There's a lot of different views that go into that. And what you're trying to do is you're trying to work out what you think is the best thing for the player. Sometimes players might need actually the caveat of not having a two-year deal. Sometimes that security is what helps them because you can then plan their program
04:28 for up to the next two years. So there's not one size of fits all. There's lots of different reasons for why you offer one year, why you offer two years at times. Just going away from the contracts, actually, Rob, and you've revealed your new coaching setup with this contracts list. I think it's something that's really eye-catching is the, I don't know, the quality and experience of that backroom team
04:54 that you've put together, obviously split along the formats with the test and the white. all. Jonathan Trott now with the Lions, you put in Richard Dawson, James Foster, Marcus Truscothic. England have only had an English head coach of the test team twice, or three times really over the past quarter of a century, someone Peter Moore's had a go at it twice. Did you sort of identify a problem with succession planning and an own-grown succession planning? Is that something that you're trying to address now? Yeah, we've been trying to address that for a while. When I started,
05:28 coach development wasn't in the England men's setup. It wasn't in a performance part of the ECB. And actually we thought that was a really important thing. The problem is it's a long-term problem that we've got to solve. And this is a problem really for English sport as much as anything else. The best jobs don't often go to English candidate. So when you when you're hiring coaches for international cricket for the England team, you just want the best. You don't really care where they come from as long as they're the best person to do that job. And what you want in the future, what you're trying to do is make sure that the best person is an English coach.
06:05 And that's something that Stephen Fleming in particular has been big on. I also believe that it's for coaches to succeed and fail on their terms as much as possible. You try and give them a system and try and give them a setup that they feel they can succeed to the best of their ability. And you do that by bringing them a system. in a support staff that can help. And Stephen Fleming was big on having Richard Dawson, James Foster. Eric, he knows he's worked with a lot out in the IPL and has a huge amount of experience.
06:40 But Richard Dawson in particular is probably one of the, he was in the process for the full job. And I think there is an element of succession planning there, albeit that doesn't mean he's definitely going to be the next person. There's a number of people you hope who can do that job. one of the things that certainly I picked up on in the summer was how Jamie Smith had improved by working with Sarah Taylor
07:03 and one of those things is actually just having the capacity of someone to work with him I think Brendan had even said particularly during the ashes they were just short-handed so even having someone there working with Jamie was a benefit but that relationship has split because Jamie's not in the White Bull side and Sarah
07:20 Taylor's going to work with Brendan over there, the limited overs set up why why that decision? And is that a problem? Because they've been working so well together? No, because I think James Foss, I don't like necessarily just pigeonholing coaches
07:36 into one discipline. And I think that, you know, I don't want bowling coaches to think they can't help batters and vice versa. And in this, this is their default position. So it doesn't mean that Sarah won't ever work in the Red Bulls set up. There might be times where she comes across and does that. But a lot of it really is because of the rapport,
07:55 She's set up, started up with Brenda McCullum and his team. And that Whiteball side, a massive focus of that is winning that 27 World Cup. Sarah Taylor's not just a brilliant wicket-keeping coach. She's an excellent fielding coach as well. So she's going to enhance lots of people in that setup. And it doesn't mean that at other times she can't work with Jamie Smith. But I feel like now we've got some outstanding coaches, not only working, you know, in both setups, but they can enhance our game, whether it's young.
08:25 players as well coming through. In terms of the conversations that you've had with the various coaches and their various roles, have any expectations been set? You speak about succession planning. And have you said to the likes of Dawson that this is part of the process and that we do see you as somebody in the future that can be leading these sides? Yeah, that was also in the process to do the head coach's job. that you don't put Jonathan Trott was in it as well.
08:56 There was a number of English coaches that we interviewed for that. So just by doing that alone, you might not win out and get the job initially, but that doesn't mean you won't in the future. So it's very clear that this is a part of you're trying to build succession planning, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're definitely going to go on to do that. But I do believe that a number of these coaches, including Marcus Trescothic, who did it very well when he stood in. And that was a great experience for him and did the interim.
09:23 job against Pakistan, they're going to get opportunities. They're in international cricket now. They're working with two of the best coaches in the world, I think, in Fleming and McCallum. They're going to learn. They're going to learn how to deal with so many different things, see the best at work. That stands, I mean, great, I think, to take the job on in the future. Easy. I've actually got something to ask. You mentioned about the contracts being 12 months and 24 months and the different coaching staff that you have. Is there going to be a period of time where someone like an Emilio Gay is finished a test series, but there's a white ball series on?
09:59 Is he going to still have access to the coaches like the Triscoffic and the Dawson, the players that are away? So in the offseason, they're able to work with the coaches that are currently the head coaches with England, or are they going to be given back to their counties and they work with their batting coaches at the counties? Because one of the issues I had when I was playing was you'd go back to your counties then you wouldn't see the coaches who have said to you, we'd like you to change XYZ,
10:21 and you wouldn't really see them for three or four months before the next series. So will there be a tie over considering this 24-month period where players are being contracted to England? Yeah, and that's with the split coaching model. You have more time to do that. There's times when you have one coach, one coaching team, and when you want to work with them, they're off doing a white boom series or a test series.
10:42 But the more important thing, what we've tried to set up, because you're trying to create the system that can produce world-class, players. So now where we've had, which I think's been a massive success, and you see that with the amount of cricket our bowlers play, touchwood, is with Troy Cooley in the overarching bowling role. We're bringing in Mike Yardy, who was doing the young lines, he's been promoted to now where he's going to be in charge of batting for English cricket. So you hope, not only what Troy's done brilliantly with our bowlers, he's connected the game, the domestic game, from a fast bowling point of view. And you hope that Mike Yardy will do that. So when you, and his remit, he's a remit,
11:17 really will be not only the Lions players, the young Lions players, it's players that go out of form, players that might have played a bit of international cricket, and then you need to try and get them back in form. Because they got there for a reason, so Mike Yardy then, he'll be in control of that. That doesn't mean he's the only one going around. He's got to create the system that can deliver what you're saying there.
11:41 And the same with Richard Dawson with Spin. Now, that's not an easy problem to solve. but we were very deliberate with fast bowling. We felt there was a gap that we didn't have enough pace bowlers. And now I think after two years we have a number of bowlers and even younger bowlers that can come up maybe playing in 2030, 2032 and beyond. And you need that for spin.
12:05 And that's what we're going to start working on. Be very deliberate and think, right, they might not get the opportunity in the summer. What can we give them? which is the other thing that central contracts and development contracts do is that these players not only are committed to the England team, they're committed to Lions cricket as well. And there's a good 50 over program, for example,
12:28 where they don't get the opportunity to play a lot of that format in the summer. So these are all the things. We're trying to create the system that can deliver an England team that can not only win, get to number one in the world and win global events, but can repeat that. You look at it. England's test team, as you know, Malah. We've been number one in the world over the last 20 years for only 12 months. Australia are about 190 plus months.
12:54 So we need to not only have success, we need to be able to repeat that. And it's the system, along with the domestic game, that has to do it. I'm just going to ask something that both of you were involved in, Maller and Rob a few years ago. I think contracts run end of September to end of September, Rob. Is that right? Yeah, first of October is when they start. So this time next year, the World Cup's going to have started. How are you going to work that when the contracts for guys who are on one year
13:25 is right up to the start of the World Cup? Presumably, you know, your squads out already by then, and performance in the World Cup might affect whether someone gets another contract. Last time, that was a little bit messy, wasn't it, when you were announcing contracts during the 2023 World Cup? Is there any provision around that? To maybe I know, stick an extra month on deals to see through to the end of the World Cup
13:46 or how are you going to work that? The central contracts are a little bit like a Sudoku where everything you do has an impact on everyone else. So it's not quite straightforward as that. But when we get to that, and it doesn't mean if you've only got a one year that we don't think that you're going to play in that World Cup or you're not a part of those plans.
14:06 There's some senior guys that have got one-year deals. But had we not wanted them for that World Cup, we may not have been picking them from now or from before. So when we get around to that, we're going to try and make sure we have the system and the contract system itself that doesn't become an issue for those players. And, you know, what that answer is,
14:30 we've started to try and think about it, but in eight months' time, when we start having to work out the next load of contracts, that will all be taken into account. Ben Duckett has been widely seen as one of the best openers across formats in the world, yet it gets a one-year deal. What's the thing? I think we think that's the best thing to get the best out of Ben Duckett,
14:52 which is how we sort of work at the contracts, really. Sometimes, you know, you think the best thing to do is we want them on a longer-term deal because we can control their program, take a croakum, someone like that. It's long-term planning, someone like Ben Duckett. I think this will get the best out of him. Rob, we haven't spoken to you since, what happened with Bride and Kars in Derby? He was given a two-year contract last year, which runs until next autumn.
15:19 Given everything that's going on, and we know there's an investigation going on with the regulator, was there ever a conversation about the contract not continuing, or was that not even in your gift to have that conversation right now? No, that investigation is going on with the regulator. I don't know a lot about what happens with that investigation, because that is with them, and then we do. with that afterwards. So there's nothing really I can say about that at the moment.
15:43 We haven't had those conversations. We'll find out more in due course when that investigation comes to it. You guys have been pretty open about the fact that he remains available for selection, but he's not being picked since then. Do you still, without prejudging the outcome of that investigation, do you see a situation where he can play for England once more? Yeah, I can do, depending on what happens with the, outcome of that.
16:11 You know, ultimately we're getting these jobs, or I get, you know, myself like a lot of people who work for the ECB, you get in this job to try and enhance and make some decisions that help English cricket. And also, you want players to be able to maximise their potential and have great careers. You don't get in them to sit on calls
16:29 about all the things that are off the field that have happened over the last bit. As far as Brighton Castle is concerned, you know, we'll find out what happens in the near future I'd imagine and there's a chance he can come back and play for England. Before he got injured he was a regular across three
16:46 format so for example he was the only pace bowler that played in all five Ashes test and then he got injured and didn't play for a little while you haven't extended his contract whereas someone like Henry Crocombe has got a two-year contract and he's never bowled a ball for England. Sunny Baker right at the start of his career he's got a two-year deal whereas Bryden remains with one year left
17:05 is that revealing to the way that you're thinking at the moment about Briden? No, I think it means that if he gets a chance to come back and play for England, then he's got to try and maximize his career and be the best bowler he possibly can be. What about these contracts and in terms of what's in black and white about player behavior, player standards? Is there something written down that says this is what expected of you? Yeah, there's clauses in the contracts about all times,
17:38 behaving in a way that I'm not going to get the exact term right that's expected from an England cricketer. But in terms of the values and the way you're supposed to behave and the things that you believe as a team and an environment, that's very much the coach, the captain, and the leaders of those environments are in charge of that. And they're accountable for making sure that they deliver upon that, along with myself who's accountable for everything, really, that happens with the England men's set up. But those values are important, and it's important that the leaders of those setups are in control
18:14 and in charge of what they're trying to do for those teams. Was that new this year in terms of, is there a new clause in the contract given everything we've seen over the last 12 months? No, no. They've been in there. Well, certainly since I've been doing this job, and probably from, I'd imagine, from the start. And Kesey on that, are you, is there like a standard punishment? for his players break that.
18:39 So we've seen over the past, you know, under the Owen Morgan, there was Alex Hales that got sort of pushed out of the system for breaking the trust on multiple occasions, as was said at the case. We had Harry Brooke who was fined recently, Brighton Kast, who's not in. Is there something that is just a standard if you've broken the trust more than once or twice that the players know that this is the standard?
19:00 You're either getting fined, you're not going to get picked. Is there something in place of that, or was it all just on an individual basis? No, there's lots of different levels. in terms of disciplinary in the contract about what you could receive if you're in breach of the contract. And then there's the thing about what you think of the values of the team and the environment that you're trying to create
19:20 and how you deal with that. That depends on the values you set as a team and the coach and the captain want to set as leaders of those environments. Just link to this, Rob, as well, because we might not speak to you before the team goes to Australia. And obviously at the end of that tour, there was everything that came out about Harry Brooke, was everything that went and off the field there.
19:41 Are you guys ready again for the scrutiny of being an England cricket team in Australia? I know Ben and Brendan both said that actually there was some players that were maybe a little bit overwhelmed by what goes with being an Englishman in Australia. I know it's a little bit different with a white ball tour compared to an Ashes tour. But are you ready for that? You're ready for the temperature to be a bit hot again? Yeah, I think so. And I think that there'll be a lot of players that go on that trip who have experienced that. and that will be for the better for them.
20:10 To shifting gear, I'm going to ask you about this as well, David, because I think this is going to come across your desk quite soon, Rob. The Afghanistan Premier League and the granting of an NOC. So, Oli Pope, for example, has said that he's going to go into the draft and he's got a central contract and the granting of his NOC might come across to you, Rob. But for the first, for you, David, you're also going to be in that draft. I can just ask what your thought process was about entering that and given all the issues that there's been around Afghanistan and sport
20:39 and whether or not England cricket teams and players should be engaging with Afghanistan at the moment. Yeah, well, it's a tricky situation, isn't it, as a player? I think as players, we generally take our guidance from the ICC and from the boards. You know, the ICC, if they approve a league, as players, we generally look at that and go, well, there's a reason it's been approved. We know from their mandate that there's no political interference allowed and what view from that. So as players, we sort of jump on board with what is being said. Now, I guess as a player, it is tough because you have what's morally right and what's, you know, actually by the
21:15 law. But, you know, I have a daughter. I want her to play sport. I want her to get into playing sports and enjoy it. So I fully understand that argument. But at the end of the day, I'm a cricketer. I need to be able to pay my rent and I need to be able to earn a living while I can. So as long as it's been approved by the boards, I am happy to go and play in a league that has been approved. And sometimes in these situations, as players, you almost want it taken out of your hand so that you're not sort of put in a position where it's, yes, we won't play bilateral cricket, but we'll play World Cup cricket.
21:46 And then we get asked the questions when we're at a global event. It's almost there needs to be either given the guidance from the players because if someone says it's absolutely fine to play and it's been approved, then players will go and play in it. Rob, your thoughts on that from an ECB point of view? I think legally it's hard to stop players from going over and playing in these competitions as David said it becomes a moral judgment and players have to be prepared to take the right moral stance I personally and it's easy for me to say I wouldn't go and play in it
22:21 but it's down really for the player to make that decision why would you say you would go and play in it no why No, I don't agree with the way that, you know, the way that that country, the way that women have been treated out in Afghanistan, the way that things happen out there is not something I agree with, so it's not something I'd go and do. Is that then, with, say, Oli Pope, who's got a central contract
22:54 and you're effectively his boss, is that a conversation that you'll have with him? I have that conversation and Ali will have to make his decision. And will you take that into World Cups as well, Keezy, from that stance in terms of not playing against Afghanistan in a World Cup for argument's sake? Or is that just bilateral series and this tournament for argument's sake? No, I think in that regard, that's down for, you know, in that case, that's down for the ECB to make that decision. And again, it's down for, you know, it's a pretty tricky situation. for people to do. And I think that ultimately,
23:33 these are decisions that become really tough for everyone. In terms of this era of English cricket, it feels almost like the Rob Key 2.0 now, in some respects. We've had the Bazball time, and now we have Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum. How are things changed?
23:53 How are you approaching this next phase? I think that you learn a lot over the time when you're doing these jobs. And I think that ultimately, we're trying to create a time where English cricket can have success and repeat that success. And I think that's the most important thing.
24:12 Stephen Fleming's spoken about trying to become number one in test cricket. We want to become number one and be able to repeat that success. The same with global events. You're trying to do that by delivering something where allows players to become world-class. And hopefully what we've put
24:29 place that will do that. Are England in a better place now, Rob, than we were? You know, we all came down to Lords in March and we spoke about the Ashes Review and you guys made decisions then. I'm sure the summer didn't pan out the way that you wanted it to, but now, do you feel like you've landed? Are you happy with where you are now than where you were then? Yeah, I think so. I always felt for all the chaos of the summer that actually, the spine and the way that that team was going was actually really exciting. You look now, the test team in particular, that's two years into a project.
25:04 Sorry, that's at the start of a project. We've lost an entire generation of player, whether that's Anderson Broad, now Stokes. There's only Joe Root left in that. And I think the White Bull side is a bit further along, to be honest, outside of the Davin Malania, Owen Morgan, that era. You know, and they're now starting.
25:26 They got to, what, number one, and the world in T20 cricket. And the 50 over team looks like it's really starting to make some moves in that regard. Whereas, you know, the test team now, you look at the bowling attack that we've tried to create. You look at some of the players that have come in that you feel like they're on the cusp of doing something special. It would only be human, I think, when you're saying, you know, we've ended up in a better place. But there's decisions you made in the spring to go, maybe we could have done it then?
25:54 or did you have to go through everything that happened over the course of the summer to Lant where you are now? I think you may well have done. I don't think we have ended up in this position had we not made the moves that we've made there. You know, Stephen Fleming wouldn't have been available at that stage. I think that everything that we've tried to do is trying to move English cricket forward. And sometimes you don't get every decision right. But actually, I think where we've ended up, we've all learned a hell of a lot. we've got the two best coaches in international cricket in McCollum and Fleming and the team all teams look like they're in a decent place and we've got the chance of having a really great era.
26:35 Rob, just finally, a lot of talk about what players have learned and is expected of them over the course of the last 12 months or so. What about you? What have you learned? What about your own expectations upon yourself and the role? I think you're forever learning all the time there's probably too many things to go into of what I've learned but the game is forever evolving and you're just trying to find ways that you can evolve with it and I think that goes the same in these roles. It has its moments.
27:09 I think there's many a time where you get a phone call where you just think right, how are we going to deal with this but actually I think the upside to these jobs are much more than the downside. Can I sneak a last one in? Because I've been keeping an eye on South Africa or Australia over the past couple of days. Would you, Rob, where do you feel about the pink ball experiment?
27:30 Would you, this idea that you've got to decide on a playing with a pink ball before the match begins to sort of, I don't know, predict if the light's going to get bad? Do you fancy that? Or it just seem a bit daff to say we're going to start a match with a pink ball and stick with it throughout? No, I saw Sean Pollock's points. the piece that he did about that. And I can understand the logic behind it,
27:52 but I think that personally, you know, I don't know enough about how the pink ball behaves. I never played in a pink ball game. We're not talking about day night cricket. He was talking about just using the pink ball all the time. I think that you've got to have a pretty standard colour ball right
28:08 throughout. Granted, they use Cuckaburra or Dukes. But until we do some more work in to know exactly how they all behave, I'd stick with the red. Perfect. Rob, thank you very much for your time. You're very busy. I know that. So thank you. We do appreciate it. And we'll keep a close eye on how it all goes over the winter. Thank you. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.
28:35 Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's O'DEWO.com. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret, of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students, he's trying to silence. If this is leaked to the media, I'll be destroyed.
29:19 This is World of Secrets. watching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Well, that was Rob Key there and still with me, David Milan and Stefan Schemelt. Stefan, that was revealing. He often is more candid than perhaps many others in his sort of role across sport. Well, it used to be a TV pundit, didn't he? So you'd always expect him to be able to, what was it that Kevin Peterson said to you the other day, Henry, don't have to listen to your rubbish. He was more of a general thing about the media.
29:58 So I think Rob's pretty good. I've been telling myself that, Steph, rather than taking it to personally. Yeah, so I think, so Rob's pretty good, is it? He knows what's going to come. He's worked as a pundit, and so he's been on both sides of the fence. He's asked the questions, and now he's answering them a lot. The other thing as well, I think that must be quite nice for Rob Keyes. Quite often he's been put up to speak to us when there's been a bit of crisis
30:20 management going on throughout English cricket, certainly over the past 12 months. So it must be quite refreshing for him to be able to come when actually there's not a big hot topic to deal with. And he's got something to announce and he can talk about things more generally. I know that we spoke to him about Bride and Cars, but until that is resolved by the regulator, there isn't loads and load that Rob Key can say, although he did make the point that he can see at a time when Briden plays for England again. are England in a better place now than they were in March?
30:53 Well, they feel like they are, and there are lots of people who are saying that England should have acted at that time. But until Devin Fleming gets his team together, until we see those results on the field, we don't really know. David, what did you make of it all? Because what struck me was when looking at the list of players is not so much the names, but also the longevity of certain contracts and Rob Key saying, well, it sort of depends on who it'll benefit who it does.
31:21 I might be a bit insulted if someone said, well, we think you'll be, but you need the incentive of not having a second year. Yeah, well, they had that bizarre incident with Johnny Bess. They were signed for two years for arguments sake and played what, two games of cricket in two years and still got paid full contracts. So I guess you have to be careful with, you don't want to use it from an age point of view, from where a player is, what they've done, how much you see them, but also the motivation for it.
31:46 some players, if you give them a two or three-year contract, they really do ease out of really, I wouldn't say doing the hard work, and I'm not saying any of these players don't do that, but sometimes you can take your foot off the gas or you can get comfortable or complacent in your environment where international cricket is all about performances. You have to perform day in, day out, whether it's on the field, off the field, fitness, mentally. It's about performances. It's about winning games of cricket and about individually doing what you need to do for the team. So sometimes if you have two or three year contracts, you know, players can sort of breeze through a bit and go, well,
32:19 I'm having a poor period, that's fine. I've got a two-year contract. I'll still get picked. But sometimes you need that motivation and saying, actually, for you to earn the right to keep playing for England, as we had to do in the past, you still have to perform week in week out and put in good performances.
32:34 Malah, can I ask, how do you actually find out if you've got a deal? How does this all work? I presume that Rob Key wasn't phoning 39 cricketers on Sunday telling them that they got deals. This actually plays out over quite a long period of time, doesn't it? Because counties have to know so they can fix their budget. Players have to know so they know what they're doing over the next little while.
32:56 What goes on? Yeah, so funny enough, Kesey was actually the one that called me every time I had a central contract or didn't have a central contract. And Keezy and I, I know we didn't get into there, but we had some really good debates over contracts and finances and what have you. It was always really good to speak to him about that. But it, you know, they, I would say to my last contract, and I hope Kesey won't mind me saying this, but my last contract was at that 2023 World Cup.
33:23 And I was pretty much given a deal with a fee that didn't really relate to me playing for the whole year for argument's sake. And one of my questions were, well, hold on, this doesn't look like a full contract. And he was quite honest. And as he always is, he was like, well, look, we don't really know how much cricket you're going to play after this World Cup. So in effect, we're paying you for this World Cup. Cup. So yes and no, from a player's point of view, you know, well, I'm going to this World Cup
33:48 and I'm getting paid, but I might potentially never play again. So it was pretty much tied in with that discussion that you had of where players will be at the next World Cup, whether there's just a month deal or two-month deal. I pretty much had a deal for the World Cup, and then you're pretty much done, even though you'll be an essential contract and you can do what you want. So, you know, I guess with all these conversations, there's going to be winners, there's going to be losers. I remember there were other players that got off the call to Kesey and were calling around saying, you've got deals, I haven't got a deal, what's going to happen. So that was a bit of that indecision last time, whereas I guess when you have more contracts
34:21 and you're able to really sit down with players and say, well, we're giving you, we've got 39 contracts and we're picking you for the next year or two years. You actually know where you're going to be. So that helps as well, the more you have. Because some people would think that there's a list of players on full contracts and they all get exactly the same terms, but it can all be entirely different, aren't they? Yeah, it is. from my understanding, it might have changed since I played,
34:45 but when I was playing, it was done on a point system. So if you were a guaranteed player in test cricket, like a Joe Root for argument sake, well, he'll be world-class, he might be a bit more, but you'd get 16 points, and each point is worth X amount of money, whatever that would be now, I don't know. And same with white balls. If you were a guaranteed 20-20 cricket, 100% going to play every game,
35:05 not even up for debate, you'd get eight points, and the same in 50 over cricket, eight points. So in effect, if you were guaranteed and you'd just play, test, you'd get the same as someone who's playing guaranteed in 50 over and T20, so it made it a fair system all the way through. But someone might get one point for a T20, two points for 50 over and 16 points for a test match, and then you sort of get your fee from that. Do you know what your teammates are getting? Well, everyone will sort of say, well, I only got 20 points or in total, and someone will say, so you know what it is. But it's not something that people really discussed.
35:39 I guess the Roots and the Stokes and those guys, they would never ever say what points that had because everyone would just be like, well, he's on 16, 16, whatever it may be. And you can sort of take a rough guess based on what your fee per point was. But people don't really walk around and say, well, I only got one for T20. And I don't know why because there's a T20 World Cup. Generally, you know, you just get your amount of points based on what they're going to see you playing across formats in that year. And that's as simple as it is.
36:06 Steph, you've been delving into the history books in terms of the, the last England player to get a central contract without having represented England, Henry Crocom, two years. Yeah, well, we think this is, we think Crocombe is the first player to be given a central contract, an uncapped player to be given a central contract, since Chris Schofield, all the way back in the year 2000, which is the very first lot of central contracts, first man, because there have been some women who've been given central contracts without playing for England.
36:37 But yeah, it's remarkable really that Crocom has been given a two-year deal, even though he hasn't played for England. But they really like him. He's been in and around squads or some are across formats. They see him as a multi-format prospect. Rob Keek calls these guys long-term bets. And I think that's definitely the case. You know, it's easier to make those bets with fast bowlers
36:59 because they obviously need a little bit more looking after than the resilient batters like Doward, who, you know, they don't need their arm, putting their arm around them and wrapping cotton wool. and all sorts of things. They just turn up and do their work. But now England have put a lot of work into putting their fast bowling attack together.
37:14 Sonny Baker's another one with a two-year deal. Is it revealing that someone like Henry Crocrum has a two-year deal and Briden Carr's with everything that he's going through? His two-year contract has only got one year left to run. Is it revealing that Cass's contract is not extended? Are England still waiting to find out what happens to the cricket regulator
37:33 and all those sorts of things? Obviously, you heard in that conversation that we had with Rob Key about what might happen with Bride and Kars. And again, it's something for you, Mala, really. In terms of, in terms of player behavior, you made that point, didn't you as well, Henry? You know, what is in that contract? I was quite surprised that there was nothing new in black and white, because there's been all this talk about, you know, what's expected and that players know what's expected.
37:59 I was quite surprised there wasn't something that actually explicitly says. Yeah, well, I guess if I look back at my era, the, the biggest, wake-up call we probably had was after the Bristol incident and then when the trust was broken again by Alex Hales, as it was so well documented at the time, was that there was just a clear he's not going to be available to play for England, he's out of the system. And that was the biggest wake-up call for us as players. You can find players all you want and you can say whatever you want to do. But ultimately, the fear of losing your place playing for England is the biggest wake-up call that we had. And after that, and I mean, that England group, I wouldn't say it was any
38:35 different to what the Bazma Cullen was. The boys still enjoyed a night out when we were allowed, and they were still, you know, boys having a good time. So it wasn't any different. It was just there is a line. And if you cross that line, you will not be playing for England again under this environment and this leadership. And that's why I asked the question, what is actually in place? Is it fines? Is it a band?
38:58 And Rob Key sort of said it was on an individual basis, which how that works. You know, there's two different coaches. How important is someone to work. one format into the other one. So, you know, that would have to be something that needs to get worked out between the coaches and Rob Key at the time, captains as well, you know, what they find acceptable. David, we always had that little chat about the Afghanistan Premier League. And, you know, you put your reasons forward for why you've entered that draft. But then Rob Key said that he, he wouldn't play in it. Do you find that surprising, given that the ECB have got a
39:28 stance that would happily play against Afghanistan in global events, but they've got a policy where they won't play against Afghanistan in bilateral tours. Yeah, and that's the bit that makes it so tricky. You feel like as a player that either decision you make is either right on one side or wrong on the other side, it's incredibly difficult. And I sort of made that point too key easy about, you know, where England don't play bilateral series, but they do play in World Cup. So what's the difference, you know, and as players, sometimes you actually want a decision to be made
39:59 and say, we don't think it's right. We are making a stance against it. And then the players will buy into it. just as you know, you don't see players putting the hands up and say, well, well, I want to play bilateral cricket against Afghanistan because the rule has been made that we don't do it. You know, and as a play, it puts you in a difficult position because I don't think there's anyone that agrees with what's happening in Afghanistan and with the situation, the political situation. But once something gets approved, as players, you sit there and go, well, it's a job.
40:27 And, you know, I have to go and play and do what I need to do. And then you're stuck in a position about what's morally right and what's morally not. And I guess sometimes, as I said, we just as players, you just want it to be made slightly clearer so that everyone, because we're sitting here, I'm putting my name in. And Rob Keyes saying he isn't. And we're both, you know, one's a player and one's, you know, running the cricket team. So it just shows the difference of opinions that there are. And that doesn't mean that anyone agrees with what's happening in the situation that they have there. Yeah.
40:55 Interesting. And there's a lot of conversations we continue having, but we're running out of time. So thank you to both Stefan Schemelt and David. Milan and also our thanks to Rob Key, who we spoke to a little earlier, England's director of cricket. In terms of the ODI series, well, it's a tri-series featuring England, Sri Lanka and Pakistan, gets underway Sunday 18th of October. Full commentary, each match beginning 9am for the initial phase of things, but then daylight saving time means it will be on air 745 as of the game on Sunday the 25th. Full details on the BBC Sport website and app of that one. Looking forward to bringing you commentary.
41:39 Thank you, gents. And don't forget, subscribe to the Test Match Special podcast on BBC Sounds. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Steve Bragnell, assistant manager of Sunday League powerhouses, the Royal Oak FC. And this season, we're aiming for promotion to Division D of the Sheffield Sunday Imperial League. absolute dants at barebones. In light of the fact, we only had 10 players on Sunday, beggars may not be able to be chooses in this occasion.
42:11 Throughout our 30-year history, this might be lowest point. Games Gone. The Steve Bradnell podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected.
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