Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Andrew Henderson

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

Andrew Henderson is an educational YouTuber, investor, world traveler, entrepreneur, and the bestselling author of Nomad Capitalist. He dropped out of Arizona State University to start his first business and then four businesses later, he sold everything and decided to travel the world. With his current company, Nomad Capitalist, Henderson has helped hundreds of clients go offshore, keep more of their wealth and enjoy the benefits of global citizenship. Henderson's philosophy is simple; go where you are treated the best by leveraging the advantages offered by different countries around the globe. ------- Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra Get a free box of Dry Roasted Namibian Sea Salt Macadamias + 20% off Your Order With Code TETRA Use code TETRA for 20% off at checkout

Tetragrammata. Tell me about when it first occurred to you the possibility of living all over the world instead of where you were born. When I was about 12 years old and my father was researching living in four different countries, he said, hey, the US is probably not gonna be what it is for the rest of my life and sort of gonna have for my kids life. And so what if we made a move? Ultimately did not make a move, but he said,

listen, you should realize that the kids at school who are sitting around in Cleveland, Ohio, because they have to take care of their parents, we're gonna take care of ourselves. And We're going to take care of ourselves. And you should go to wherever you have the best potential, whether it's in the same city, the same state, the same country even, you should go where you're treated best. And so that opened up a lot of opportunities.

What do you think was going on in his life that sparked that, it's a it's a radical idea especially if people in the United States the United States seems to be a particular place where Everything outside of the United States doesn't really exist. I grew up in New York and in New York Really outside of New York doesn't exist. It's a it's a strange myopic place and I didn't start traveling the world until recently. And it's been eye-opening and beautiful and magical, and I learned so much, and have enjoyed my life so much more since experiencing more of it.

Well, it's interesting because a lot of people who live in New York, you see someone they move from Cleveland, Ohio, or they move from Omaha, Nebraska, and suddenly they get to New York, you see someone they move from Cleveland, Ohio, or they move from Omaha, Nebraska, and suddenly they get to New York and they become part of the myopic thinking. I suppose the United States is geographically isolated, but more importantly, it's built a brand. I mean, you know about building brands. The United States is basically Coca-Cola,

and I mean, who is going to challenge Coca-Cola? People look at the rest of the world as being anywhere, anything from RC Cola to like, dish water. And so, when you look at the statistics, which is what we were doing around the dining room table when I was a kid, my dad would say, oh my goodness, the US fell to six, or whatever, in the freest economies.

We used to be number one, not very long ago, but now we're six. And now it's like 20, and they're being beaten by countries that when I was 12 years old, we're communist. And so we've just looked at these statistics. I mean, there's parts of the United States where the hospitals, like the outcomes from medical care

are as good as they are in Rwanda. But because it's Coca-Cola, no one challenges it. Tell me what those places are, just so I have an idea of where to avoid it. I feel like if I'm not feeling well. They did a big report on parts of like Western Texas, especially like maternity. You are likely to lose your child at childbirth as you were in parts of Africa. Wow. And where do you think you found the confidence to go? It's one thing for your dad to suggest it. It's another pick up and move.

It's a big life decision. Well, what's interesting is my parents now have picked up and moved half time so they have a home in Mexico. And I don't think it's a place that was ever on their radar before, especially my father. Oh, Mexico. He was very interested in Europe. He's always been someone who traveled, we'd go to Germany, we'd go to Portugal, but Mexico wasn't his thing. He bought into some of the stuff. He saw me doing it for all these years and then he got interested and said, okay, I'd like to be half the time in the US, but I'll do half the time on a beautiful lake in Mexico. And so for me, there was no other option.

It was just, I wanna go. I think that for a lot of people, there's some other push. There's, for me, as an entrepreneur, at a very young age, that wasn't cool back in the early 2000s. Now it's like everyone's an Instagram, they're an entrepreneur. Back then, your friends would drag you out to a bar, and girls would be like, what are you doing?

Like, this is so stupid. Like, oh, you were in a tie. What's the, ah, and, you know, you'd go on trips and suddenly the girls and other countries would be like, oh, that's pretty cool. And you just like, oh, okay, I have to kind of seek out these better social opportunities. And so you do it and then you do it some more

and then you just get into it and you don't stop. Let's talk about your personal, where was the first place that you moved to? Yeah, so we moved around a lot. Within Cleveland, Ohio was very weird. I mean, I think the last move within Cleveland, Ohio as a kid was, hey, the property taxes are one-third over this imaginary county line. And literally, the backyard was the other county. And they were so posh

about it. Oh, we're in the county with much higher taxes. And my dad's like, yeah, my bill is one-thirds. We moved around a lot. And so my parents said, all right, this is the last move. You don't have to move anymore. But when you're 18, we're going to Arizona. And I follow them to Arizona. I flunked out of Arizona state or dropped out or whatever, I don't remember. And I spent about 10 years there running a couple of different businesses mainly in the broadcasting industry, a couple of side hustles. Sold everything when I decided to kind of travel the world full time. But in those last number of years, I was traveling substantially or even the majority of the

time. But when I finally said I'm selling the house, I'm selling the businesses, I'm moving everything out. I spent six months in Southeast Asia, not what most people do in Southeast Asia, but I was interviewing CEOs of banks and entrepreneurs and finding business opportunities in Cambodia. And then I went and did six months in Eastern Europe, mostly North Eastern Europe, the Baltics, and what have you. And after that, I said out of all those places, my favorite is Malaysia. I'm going to set up a base there, get an apartment, but I'll still keep traveling seven or eight months a year.

So before we get into Malaysia, tell me about what you experienced in each of those places and what the plus and minuses of each of them are. I mean, I think there's places, I mean Cambodia for me, you know, I'm 38 years old now, back then, I was, you know, maybe a lot younger. I mean, I think if you're 18 or 21, you could look at living in Cambodia. There's an incredible potential. I think even at that point, with some money to my name, that wasn't really a place that I would say I want to live.

It's not really any cheaper than living in Malaysia, and this standard is much lower, but you're going to make a lot more money if you start a business on the ground there. So I was looking for investments. Some of those places were just never in a louse, for example. Is this country ever going to be opened up? It's one of the last communist countries in the world. And so I was interested to kind of get a jump on that, not to live there. I think Vietnam is very affordable.

The problem is it's hard to communicate with people. It's not as Western if you want that. I think eventually most people, they return home because it's too exotic for them. Let's talk about that exotic idea because right now you're describing most of the things you're describing have more to do with financial reasons to move.

But I know that's not the only or maybe even main reason to move. I think even my parents said back in the 90s, this could be an adventure. And so I think it's fun. I think some people look at it as, hey, I'll go and live in Malaysia, I'll get a job, I'll do whatever in one of those places

for four or five years. And then I'm coming back to Denmark, to the UK, whatever. I at this point today, as I talk to you, I have no, quote unquote, home country to go to, I gave up US citizenship. I don't think they want me to come back and sort of have to live there. So there's no giving up for me. But no, I think that when I look at the clients that our company has served, I see a disproportionate number, no judgment of people who like, I don't want to call my mother, even if it means I can get a second citizenship

because she has the documents to help me do that. I don't want to do that. I'd rather pay $100,000 and get Caribbean citizenship on some island that accepts donations rather than reconnect with my family tree. I don't want to talk to my mom. So I think that there's some level of hurt in some of the people that go about

doing this. And for me, I mean, I was a guy who was bullied in school. I was bullied by some people in my own family growing up and then got out into the real world. I think the only choice I had was being an entrepreneur. I didn't think what corporation would want to hire me. And I certainly wouldn't want to take orders. So I started a business at 19. And then the fact that that was weird in the US, but not weird in Norway or Asia that was kind of cool there. I mean, that was all the social part that helped me. So the first place that you moved to was... I guess you'd call Malaysia's Southeast Asia. So that was the first place I kind of said,

I'm going to set up a base. Because before that, I was just traveling with, you know, a suitcase every month, it's a new place. And you're the weirdo because everyone in Laos is like a backpacker and they're like, you have a suitcase, like that's kind of weird. Describe the lifestyle in Malaysia versus your lifestyle in Ohio.

What, I'd lived in Arizona as an adult. So I'll compare it to Arizona. I called Malaysia, the United States of Asia in the good ways. So the government does not bother you, like the police are cool, if you ever see them, like Malaysians are just really cool laid back people. And yet the country's become very successful. It's on par with some of the lesser EU countries, really. So I mean, anything novel is fun, but I found it to be the United States of Asia, but only

in the good way. So people speak English. It's multicultural. That's interesting. There's lots of different dining options. It feels in a sense more Western than a place like Vietnam, certainly than in Cambodia. It's 85% of Singapore in my opinion, and yet you can buy a remostate very affordably there unlike Singapore.

So that's how I saw it. Have you lived in a place that English is not spoken? So I've been very nomadic in my living. I don't, it's always an interesting question. What counts as living? If you spend a month somewhere, two months somewhere, if you get an apartment, what is it that's living? I've said, if you want to apply a more conservative standard, I've lived in maybe 12 countries. Yeah, I mean, Colombia, certainly. I mean, that's when people don't really speak English because the Spanish-speaking

world is so big, they don't have to adapt. You know, I've been to places like, I've lived in Serbia, I have a house in Serbia, they speak English impeccably in Belgrade. So, I think probably Latin America's been the biggest one where I've struggled. I haven't spent as much time in like Russia or Central Asia, where it's very much the same thing, but it's the Russian ecosystem. I think those would probably be two of the hardest ones in the world. And obviously, again, I spent a month in Cambodia Cambodia and that was the first time I went, was 11 years ago at this point. I guess in the tourism industry, they speak English, but a lot of other places you're not.

So I've never found that to be a huge challenge. I found it too at a certain point, be a frustration, which is why I'm spending more time in Ireland now because it's nice to feel heard. Do you feel like an outsider in the places that you go to? I mean, I would probably feel like an outsider regardless. I think one reason people like Asia is it's very accepting. And so in a sense you realize we don't look Asian.

They're never gonna, I mean, they every time you're like telling your maid or you're giving away a cat that you fostered, they're like, oh, are you going back to your country? It's like, I'm coming back in three months, but they know like, hey, this is not your country. Even I have a friend who got Asian citizenship. Nobody believes him.

He's still not one of them, even though he's a citizen. And so it's a very different thing than like, if they became American citizens, you'd be like, of course, they're American. It doesn't work the same way. But yet, especially in like Malaysia, the Philippines, they are extremely accepting. I think in Eastern Europe, you have more nationalism. You're not going to meet those people when you're hanging out in the places that you would

hang out. But there's more of a gruffness in that part of the world. And I think that you would feel accepted if you spoke Spanish fluently anywhere in the Latin American world because they are countries of immigrants. And so I think that there's kind of a spectrum. For me is someone who has spoken a couple of different languages, but not to the point where we're going to discuss, you know, socratic principles fluently. I found Asia to be the most warm and accepting.

And of course, I think a country like an Ireland or something like that. I mean, very welcoming as well. Let's go continent by continent and talk about all the different options, positives and negatives. When do Europe first? Yeah, let's do Europe. I think that again, there's a psychology to this that I haven't thought about myself because I just really wanted to do this. Most people are probably not going to jump into going to Asia.

People want some familiarity. I think Europe makes sense. But living in Malaysia, you say, is not unfamiliar for you. And do you think me? I've never been to Malaysia. If I went to Malaysia, would I feel out of place? Would I feel uncomfortable? Would I feel like I don't belong? Would I feel like I can't find any of the things, any of the comforts that I'm used to? Okay, so let's talk about Malaysia. I will say the one difference, spending a little bit of time in Dublin, is Amazon is the best. Other countries have their own e-commerce sites. Amazon is the most intuitive. And so

I kind of got used to in these other countries. Hey, you go to the store, you buy things, it's a little bit of fun, it's not quite as efficient, but it's charming, right? They're not using the smart speakers everywhere. It's like, it's just a little bit of an older school life. Certainly the convenience now coming back to somewhere with Amazon is better. But everything else, I mean, if you don't come with a bias, yes, I think you will feel accepted in Malaysia. Probably more than you will in some parts of Europe, but I think that from what I've studied,

you know, reaching tens of millions of people, helping thousands of people doing this, there's a discomfort of like going too far too soon, to where I think people say, okay, I live in California So Mexico like okay, they asked they speak a different language, but okay, everyone's in Mexico city now They're speaking English or everyone's in Baja or whatever. I can get by in English. I'll learn the language eventually The food is similar the the convenience stores look the same like or I'm going to go to Ireland because I'm living in Boston or something, and that seems familiar. I feel that people stick with it longer when they start with familiarity, even though I did the opposite.

And you think that if you move and have a good experience in a familiar new place, you'll be more likely to then branch out from there and see what's possible. Possibly, yeah. It's been interesting these last couple years because we had, like, let's say, the COVID stuff and people were saying, you know, I want to be a little more open. And obviously, the countries that were familiar were not those. And so it was a very interesting dynamic watching people like, oh, you want total freedom and low taxes. Nicaragua is the best play that's what checks all the boxes. And obviously that's a different experience.

Where did many people go during COVID? Was Nicaragua the only option? No, I think that, that particular guy was living in the Caymans and he just wanted something nearby. A lot of people went to like Serbian Montenegro and they weren't perfect, but we had a lot of, especially as Australians going there,

Serbian Montenegro now being two countries of course, but yeah, I think that those are places where people just wanna be left a little bit more. You know, they're obviously coming out of kind of a communist backdrop. The culture is going to be different again. People are going to be very direct, which is nice in some ways and not nice in others. And so if you're coming from Australia, the US, that may be too much directness for you.

But that's one place a lot of people went. Nika Raghua, Colombia, to some extent. How do you feel about Costa Rica? Costa Rica is also... I think I'm probably a little bit too much of a contrarian. And so I have to kind of turn that off in the business side of me when I just want to help somebody. I was never a big fan of Costa Rica. I do feel some of those countries,

Nicaragua may be the exception, but the countries that play of all with the US and Central America are a little bit... I mean, it does feel kind of police stady. When I flew it of Costa Rica last, it's like, oh my goodness. El Salvador, I guess, now he's kind of pushing back as well. So El Salvador and Nika Raga, maybe the ones that are a little bit different. The world is changing, by the way, Rick.

I mean, following the US is not the only way to survive anymore. But I feel like Costa Rica's a name brand. It's probably just not my vibe. I'm more of an urban guy. I'm not like, you know, doing meditation at 6am. But I feel for some people that works, and yet I just don't entirely get it, I guess. And I would just say this, if it works for you, fantastic.

What I tell people though is, when I in South East Asia, again I'm a little bit contrarian being in Kuala Lumpur. Most of the guys are good to Bangkok for example or if they want the islands they'll go to Puket. I think some of those guys are looking for like dating which is probably better in Thailand. I never chose a place based on dating alone. But if you're following someone to Bangkok just because that's what someone else is doing, or Bangkok, or Barcelona, or Guana Costa, like, don't do that. You have to make up your own mind. And I think most people are just like, well, that's where everyone's going. That's where I'll go. Well, maybe you shouldn't.

Yeah. I just met someone who lived in New York their whole life. And for the last 10 years has been living in Thailand and absolutely loves it. Can't imagine ever coming back. And he mentioned Puket. Yeah, I have a lot of friends who are in Thailand. I think Puket is interesting. What I like about Malaysia is you can own land. Now Thailand's kind of slowly opening up little caveats for how you can have land. But what's nice about Malaysia, it's one of like four countries in Asia where you can can own land, and it's the most tax-friendly, and it's the most immigration-friendly.

I mean, Japan, you can own land, but I mean, there's really no way to immigrate to Japan. Really, it's very difficult, and the taxes are a mess, and the weather's not as good. So, for that reason, I like Malaysia, some people go to Penang, Lan Kaui is a little bit more difficult. There's more of the kind of ethnic lands that are set aside, probably not a place to live. I think if you want the services, if you like, divides. Thailand's also tax and immigration friendly, but you just have to deal with if you're going to own a property, you know, how do you deal with the land? And I guess if you're investing seven figures now, they're opening up some ways to own

the land. Yeah, if I were a beach person, I would probably favor those beaches for kind of amenities and services above a lot else in Southeast Asia. Now that I've opened up my experience of different parts of the world, and the first thing that happened was we spend our summer in Italy, and Italy is great for more than just three months. And I didn't know, because I had no reason to know, that you can't stay for more than just three months. And I didn't know because I had no reason to know that you can't stay for more than three months as an American citizen without it being a complicated process. And that started this idea of I really want to be able to go wherever I want to go. I want

to be able to be free to travel and experience these different places and not feel like I'm under any time pressure to be in any particular place. And that led me to your work. It's a great feeling. Yeah, we got to get your residence permit or any European citizenship. I made a lot of people listening may have an ancestor from somewhere in Europe, whether it's Italy or not, that would allow them to get a passport. You know, we have a guy who works for his who's Polish Polish American. He got the Polish passport He could live in Italy because it's all part of the EU But yeah, I mean what you're describing is I created the trifecta method where I said it's hard for now

I'm I'm doing less of this these days because I think there's an evolution from kind of perpetual traveler to base plus travel to a few bases to Just pick one main base but I Create the trifecta method myself because I couldn't decide between Europe and Asia and Latin America I would go to each one and be like oh, this is so great the food Oh, you know, you get there But then after a little bit of you know after a while if I go to Bogota if I spend time in in Colombia

It's like I I am not fluent enough, if I spend time in Colombia, it's a guy, I am not fluent enough to feel like I fit in. So I have my friends, I improve my Spanish, I do my stuff, but after a while, it's like, let me go somewhere else. I also then realized for someone like in your position, hey, I'd like to live in Italy, but not long enough to where I've got to pay taxes

or have the tax complexity. And so I said, okay, well, if you carve it up into like three or four months each, we can do that, you know, on tax wise. And then to your point, the immigration, which I think is an easily solved problem. But the trifecta method was there's just so much out there to see why would you settle.

And I think that for me, the natural progression is opposed to many people is doing that for long enough makes you realize what you most value to then go out and isolate that rather than moving to one place and then like longing for the other stuff that you've missed. Tell me about the people who come to you. So being on YouTube, being rather public, I mean, we get all comers. We put together an annual event so that people can just come and hang out

and that's a great opportunity to meet like-minded people. Because most people aren't a fit for our client services. The people that we help as clients are high-net worth individuals to ultra-high-net worth individuals, higher-ners and businesses, and they want complexity because they realize, look at your situation. If you're American and you're spending a decent amount

of time in Europe, and then you're also going to other places, like you've got to potentially rather complicated tax profile. And I'm a guy who I don't want to be on the wrong side of anybody. I don't want to be getting a letter in the mail. I don't want to provoke the IR, the IRS. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

On top of that, maybe you want different residents permits to facilitate your lifestyle. I have numerous passports and residents permits I don't use, but they're good backups. And I think with the craziness in the world, that's how. So the clients that we work with are saying, I want the full suite of services to make sure that I can live the life I want now. And if it hits the fan, I'm covered with other places I can go, other asset protection stuff,

I want it done all legally. And I don't want to have to call 12 different people to do that. And so it's a service that's kind of hard to break down. It's kind of like, you know, you watch a Rolls Royce being made by hand, everything's done by hand. I mean, how do you make a cheaper version of that? But that's who's coming is they have the complexity that I have or that you probably have. What would you say are the benefits of being a global citizen? Well, I think there's a lot of opportunities out there. And I think as you mentioned a lot of Americans, you look at the sleeping giants that are coming up to be the world's largest economies in the next 20 years, most Americans have never heard of them. So if you just get out, you're going to find this stuff.

I mean, everyone says, oh, I'd be interested in going to Singapore or investing in Singapore. You're too late. The time to be there was in night. I have a picture of the early 70s when kids are like selling gum in the streets in Singapore. Like one out of five people there now is a millionaire. That's one of the highest in the world. You're too late. And so I think one of the benefits is an adventure.

But along that, where should I put my money? What's happening in the world? You know, we interviewed Jim Rogers. He said, if you're a smart guy in 1800, you moved to London, 1900, New in 2000, you'd move to Asia because you're going to see how the world is unfolding. And so whether you're in business, whether you're an investor, that's a big thing. And I also just happen to think that the trend in the Western world, I would exempt a few countries, but the big countries in the West, it is going the wrong direction. People feel less free. People write each other's throats. Let's not make this political,

but people are talking about stuff that frustrates them in the US. And I'm like, I don't even hear about that stuff where I live. I haven't heard a peep. And so it's hard for me to get angry with you because I'm not dealing with that stuff. And they're like, how can I be angry about this?

And it's like, nobody's talking about that where I live. And so I mean, I really feel like I talked to my friends in the United States. I feel it's like everyone is outraged now. And it's like, don't you think you'd be happy? Like they can't even imagine like not being outraged many of them. Their idea is how can I be outraged and win? How about you just have a happy life? And I think that I mean Malaysia, for example, that's just a perfect example. The Malays are just focused on waking up today and having a happy life. That's it. That's amazing. Macadamias are a delicious superfood. Sustainably sourced directly from farmers.

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A house of macadamias. I roasted with Namibian sea salt, cracked black pepper, and chocolate dips. Snack bars come in chocolate. Coconut white chocolate and blueberry white chocolate. Visit houseofmacadamies.com slash tetra. It's an interesting thing that we get to experience when traveling in the world, growing up in the United States, watching movies and television, we get programmed to think of people in other places as either being bad actors or enemies or I remember there was an episode of some

one of the comedies an old episode from the 1940s and they had Japanese people, not as human beings. They had more like animal-like features and that was propaganda in that time. And now, there are places in the world where they're not teaching Tolstoy or Dostoevsky because the Russians are viewed as monsters. There's so many stereotypes that get projected to us. And one of the great things about traveling, is you see, none of that's true. We're all just people. And everybody's cool.

And it's really nice to have that experience of meeting beautiful Japanese people and beautiful Russian people and great Chinese people and lovely South American people and friendly Arabic people. And it's a great experience. And I think that's one of the benefits is it's harder to have an enemy when you can meet the people

and see they're not the monsters that we're being told. I think also where people excuse what happens in their own country. I mean, you mentioned the Russians. There's plenty of Russians who don't like what's happening right now geopolitically and somehow they're just cut out of the whole system now. I mean, what if that happened to Americans?

What if the world's, and by the way, I think that you are seeing 29% of the world is sanctioned by the US financial system now, up from like 8% to the turn of the century. 8% you can probably explain. There's some bad actors. 29% of the world is under US sanctions. Do you think none of those people as their economies grow, Nigeria, Indonesia, Brazil, China,

India? You think none of those guys are going to say, hey, you know what, we're tired of being under your boot. We're going to do something on our own. And I mean, what if Americans are shut out of certain opportunities some days? And what if the West continues to go down a path where you have fewer freedoms?

You have less freedom of speech. You're not allowed to speak out. I mean, we don't have to get into all the things they're talking about. But I just think that I'd like to have a connection to a different part of the world. You're saying, yes, it's not that scary, but I'll say this, if you get robbed in the United States, you're going to blame the criminal, not the United States.

But if you were to go to Colombia, would you blame yourself that, oh, you maybe didn't go to the right neighborhood? Because my neighborhood, there's nothing happening in my neighborhood in Colombia. It's pretty safe neighborhood. It's some pretty just normal, successful Colombian people. So why is it you'd go to Colombia and blame Colombia, but in the United States, you blame the cro- just it's this thing where against the Coca-Cola, we are on the side of this brand. So therefore it's not the brand that's the problem.

And it's just, it's so disingenuous. Tell me about the differences between Mexico and the United States. The projection is Mexico's a dangerous place and be wary of going. What's your opinion? Well, again, I, I had to turn off the alerts and it's sad, but I mean, how often was there some shooting in the US? And it's just, again, in the US, you're like, well, nobody shot me.

Okay, I mean, how long have we all spent in Mexico? I mean, Mexico City, I was telling people when Trump was running in 2015, don't move to Canada if Trump wins, move to Mexico. It's much better, it's cheaper that people are just as nice, the food's better, everything's better. And it's actually, you can actually move there to your point.

People just think like, oh, I'm an American, I can just move wherever I want. No, you can visit most places, but to move there, no. So I think Mexico, obviously, if you look at the statistics, and that's what I'm about, yes, things like murder rates and stuff are higher, but let's isolate that. You know, where can you go to avoid that?

If you live in Naperville, Illinois, it's an example I use a lot. You're not really concerned what happens in Chicago, right? That's why you moved out of Chicago. So you figured out where to go. So if you live in Mexico City and you live in Lomas, for example, you're probably gonna be fine. So there's certain areas that you don't wanna avoid.

And then again, I say, okay, well, if the goal is to avoid violent crime, you have to move out of the US because it's in the top one third of violent countries. Most other countries, including the UAE and all those Gulf countries that Americans kind of poo poo, they have like 90% less violent crime. It's almost not existent in those places. So I think Mexico is a great soft landing. Again, the food is similar, the culture was similar. I think people there hugged their families more. The president of Mexico was picking on Joe Biden recently. We're all about family here.

Well, your country's breaking down. Yeah, we're the ones moving the drugs. You guys are the ones taking them. So I think there's more of a cult, there's more of a family environment in Latin America. And yet I think that, I remember, who was it? I was talking to Mexican guy, this is many years ago. And he's like, yeah, people like Americans think that like we're the machissimo guys. And it's kind of the patriarchy. He's like, that's what we think about you guys. So I just think perspective is valid. Perspective that seven European countries have the US on a travel advisory list because of all the shootings and all the violence. So like, again, is it only what your country does

that counts or is it when Germany's like, hey, you know, you might not wanna go to the US because there's a lot of stuff happening. Oh, there's a cow, there's a euro trash, I remember. Like, let's just have one thing for everybody. And if you apply that, I think that Mexico is, is fine. Let's talk about Europe, the benefits of moving from the US to Europe and the difference between the countries. I see, I'm increasingly seeing a very strong divide between the Northern European countries and the Southern ones. I mean, you're in seeing a very strong divide between the Northern European countries

and the Southern ones. I mean, you're in Italy, so it's a bit more laid back. Stuff doesn't always work. I don't think I've been to Italy a single time in my life where somebody's not on strike for something. So, you know, if you're gonna live there, you're gonna hire a driver, you're gonna do it. Okay, you can manage that, but it's just a different environment.

And so I think that some of Europe is probably too laid back for some Americans, although there's some Americans who are looking for that I look at Europe as I mean it really is something for everyone So to me Ireland is nice people don't need to speak a new language It is international, but there's just a charm to it. You know Italy is laid back The food, you know Spain has kind of its own vibe a charm to it. Italy is laid back. The food, Spain has kind of its own vibe. So I think that it's hard to put Europe into one bucket. I mean, we have a guy who's were helping move him to Germany.

We don't do a lot of that because Germany has high taxes. Most of our businesses around, in addition to everything else, can I lower my tax bill? Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Greece, allow Switzerland, allow me to do that? But big difference between Switzerland, which is probably too much bureaucracy

and too much hassle to move in, too for most people, things are gonna work there. They're not tolerating things, not working. Where you take the train I did last year, you take the train from zero to Lake Coma, it's night and day. So I think people have the opportunity to pick what they want from Europe. But I think that again, it's a brand that Americans are familiar with.

When I said people are moving to Serbia and to Montenegro, that's because they'd see me talking everyone who'd been watching me for years suddenly had a need and they'd heard me talking about those places. And so they were kind of preconditioned to it. But most people, the brand Serbia is, it's where the villains from the spy show are from. And that's why I think like Portugal seems familiar. And I just think that most Westerners have not moved overseas, especially Americans,

it's a new concept. Why do I need to do this? Let me follow wherever else is going. And so that's why Portugalgicles become successful recently. But I'm not sure that's the best place to go. I've been to Montenegro and it's not so different from Italy. First of all, it's very close, maybe less than an hour away. The architecture feels very similar.

The food feels very similar. It feels just on the other side of a small body of water. They have one of the best, I think the best, statistically yacht club in all of Europe. And it's open, it's open to everybody. So you've got a lot of people from Russia now, you've got a lot of people from Ukraine now, because it's open to everyone, and so it's a bit more neutral. Yeah, I like it. I mean, they use the Euro, so it's not particularly cheap, the place like Serbia is much more affordable

without the coast. The Balkans is a very traditionalist region, though. I know some people are looking for that. I mean, when I flew from Dublin to Belgrade about a month ago, you get at the plane. It feels different. I mean, women want to be women in a very old school way in those parts, and so it's a very interesting dynamic. I guess Italy is certainly more conservative than people would think. People kind of, oh, it's Western Europe. But I mean, it's more conservative

than much of Western Europe. But the Balkans are kind of a new level. You've spent time in Georgia. Can you tell us about Georgia? Georgia's interesting. I think, I mean, the time to invest in Georgia, at least for now is probably passed because you have all this Russian money coming in. The currency shot through the roof. It was one of the best performing currencies against the dollar

last year, in a year when the dollar didn't do that badly because you had all this foreign currency coming in. I mean, I think we've had people who've tripled their property investments in a couple of years because now there's just so much demand. So I always like to buy when things are down. But so right now, George is buzzing. I think that it's really not much cheaper to live there anymore than it would be to live probably where you are. And so what I like about Georgia, though, is they have some of the best wines.

They have an amazing cuisine. I wouldn't say that service in like a restaurant is great, but if you get to know some people, like if you said, hey, you're coming to Georgia, my entire staff, we have like 20 people there in an office, would cancel their plans, and they would make sure you had the best experience for, whether it's a day, a week like whatever.

They really take care of guests. And so it's a very interesting place. I think that they're looking to be a little bit more European than let's say the Balkans. And so someone who wants that extremely traditional view would probably have a better home in somewhere in the Balkans. But for someone who kind of wants this interesting Eurasian kind of crossroads experience with great food,

great wine, again, kind of traditional. It's very interesting place. And they've really done a lot of innovations in terms of like banking, you can open bank accounts there, you can pay your bills very easily. I have a couple of properties there. It just all runs on autopilot. And it's extremely safe.

I mean, they really came in and just got rid of all the crap. And where exactly is it located? East of Turkey, just a little bit north, but east of Turkey, south of Russia. So obviously what people point to from the west is that there was a skirmish with Russia back in 2008. Obviously, we've seen that with Ukraine, it could have been much worse. But there's about 20% of the territory that's occupied in Epochazia and in the central northern region by Russia and there are people. And then so yeah, it's called the Cacasa Mountains. So you're not that far from Iran. I mean, it's a neighborhood

that Americans look at and say, and yet I think they've done an incredible, we interviewed the old president. He's unfortunately found himself the victim of some political stuff. But I mean, he did an incredible job. He was Columbia educated, turned the place around, told the IMF to go take a hike. And I mean, they slash taxes, they slash bureaucracy, they made everything transparent.

I mean, I think they're slowing down a little bit now, but they were higher ranked in the US in terms of free economies for years. So it's been amazing. If you were concerned about the war, what would be the safest places to move to avoid potential for war? I suppose a lot of the billionaires have gone to New Zealand. I mean, New Zealand and Australia have put up a very, very high price tag to move in

there. I just don't think this place is worth it. I think that, I mean, for me, I'd like to place it to backup, but I could also enjoy. Most people I know who moved to New Zealand. They don't find that that enjoyable. It's a little boring. I think South America is interesting, and here's why. Most of the South American countries do immigration based on income.

So if you can show, I make $1,000 or $2,000 or $800 or whatever it is by the country, most of those countries, that's how they give you residence permits. And many of those countries do not require you to live there at all or a substantial part of the year in order to keep your residence permit. Now, if you want to get citizenship in those countries, you'll generally need to live there. But Argentina is as little as two years. But I think that like, if you look at Southern hemisphere, it's a difference. But it's like only 9 or 10% of the world's populations in South America. There are these kind of leftist political movements,

but guys like Doug Casey would tell you, they largely look at you as the foreigner and like, all right, he's bringing some, I leave the guy alone and it's vineyard. It doesn't mean that'll always be the case, but I kind of think that you have tons of land available. It's affordable, immigration's easy. You're far away from pretty much all the world's problems. That's why you never see those countries talking about any of the problems that are happening in the world.

They don't really pick a side. And I think it could be a good geopolitical hedge because some of those countries are more eastern leaning now. And if I'm looking at the way the world's going to unfold in my lifetime, do I want to be only attached to countries that love the United States? I don't. Which countries in particular would you look at in South America? I think it's somewhat personal preference. I mean there's a case for Chile, which is obviously one of the most developed I mean you walk through Santiago again, I didn't find it very interesting, but it feels to me in some ways like Vancouver, Canada. I don't know why, but it just feels very developed. They have a great passport. So Chile, I mean, they're becoming more left-leaning if that's an issue for you,

but that's been historically good one. Again, lots of land, not cheap, but if you have a bit more money, Chile could work. Argentina is much as, despite all their problems, if you can keep your stuff that's that of Argentina works. I suppose the one that probably makes the most sense on paper is Uruguay, the Switzerland of South America, you're really far away, good passport, very much like you know, a lot of Europeans that are living there. Again, I did not find it to be the most exciting place in the world, but that's probably the most strategic place that I would go. It's a blend of being reasonably priced, reasonable to get in, like everything's reasonable.

Colombia, obviously, is not that far into it. I think Ecuador also could be interesting. You can get really, really cheap land if you want to be self-sufficient. So, I mean, I'm looking at like every possible thing that could happen, Rick. Do I want to live in the jungles of Ecuador? It sounds nice and you gotta bet what I'm doing it. I'll be like, okay, this is a little much. But I can see a point in time where you would like to have that option.

And so if you could spend 50,000 to have a ton of land with banana trees and a little stream going through your land up to a couple hundred thousand and build a house on the cheap. And, you know, those are four countries that I would look at. Tell me about the Nordic countries, Sweden, Denmark, Finland. So I, you know, I, nor was the first country I went to as an adult. It was the first language outside of school that I learned. And I forgot everything because I went to Norway

in almost immediately. I, you know, and in these countries where English is widely spoken, I started speaking in Norwegian and they're just like, yeah, just go to the street and you'll find where you're looking for them. I'm like, okay, I think Norway is beautiful. I like that those countries, they seem to be a galaitarian in a way that the United States pretends it is, but it's not. In that, for example, if you're single and you go in a date, like she's going to insist

on paying, there's true equality. There's true, like, hey listen, we're all shipping in together. Taxes are high for pretty much everybody. You know, I mean, if you go to prison, the goal is actually to be rehabilitated, not just like we lock you in a cage. I mean, I think people generally are looking out for each other. Now, I don't necessarily agree with the high taxes. I don't know why, you know, for me, I've made the vast majority of my wealth while I'm

traveling the world. Can you really assign that to a high school in the Cleveland, Ohio area when there are kids in my class who have died of drug overdoses. I mean, why aren't they also multi-millionaires? And so I say to myself, if it's really about the individual, why do I want to live in a place where they're going to not only take half of my money, but publish how much I paid. And so they're beautiful countries. I love the people. I've a couple Norwegian friends. It's just not countries that we interact with that much because I don't see an incredible

investment potential that highly regulated low returns. The currencies aren't even as stable as the euro in some cases. I just there's no there's no appeal to me other than I would love to visit Iceland and have a nice time. But nobody really is moving there. But I respect them for at least doing a perfect job of what they do. And it's not like, hey, this guy pays no taxes and you pay a website like the US. It's like, listen, we're all chipping in, we're all getting government services.

And they're not as socialist as people think they are, by the way. But they're still, it's just, at least it's what they believe in and it's done well rather than the Schmorgas board in the US. Just not my vibe. Understood, let's talk about Africa. I've been to some places in Africa. I think that again, I probably don't spend as much time

so I think people are afraid of it. And to a certain extent, I balance my life as marketable stuff that our business can offer to people. I think Egypt is a very interesting place. I mean, I called investing in Istanbul a few years ago. You could buy property in Istanbul, Turkey, for a thousand dollars a meter. That even five years ago was what I would call extremely cheap. Forget about now with the inflation.

And I said, no matter what happens, this symbol is still on mega city, and they're doing the right thing with manufacturing in that country. And I've been proven right, property prices, despite the currency crash, are through the roof in dollar terms, partially thanks to the war. I look the same way I'd have placed like Cairo,

you've got a mega city in a very interesting part of the world, influential part of the world. I think that could be very interesting. They have their currency problems, they have some governance problems, but that's something that we're looking at very strongly. I think Rwanda's very well-run,

that's kind of increasingly talked about East Africa. I mean, Kenya is on the scene for stuff like tech. I think tech, if you wanted to go and start a business and learn from zero at 18 years old, I would consider going to East Africa and getting into one of these tech spaces because there's a lot of innovation happening right now. And Africa is going to skip some of the stuff that we had and are now replacing. There's going to go right to the new thing. So I think a lot of that innovation is happening in East Africa, driven largely out of Nairobi. I think Rwanda for a local play is very interesting.

I think Cairo for kind of investment. By the way, to your point about war, I mean, I guess you could live in Mauritius or something, that's pretty far away from it all. And they've got a pretty multicultural, well-run island. I was there and it's nice. So I think there's a lot of opportunities in Africa. And if I were a young kid, I would consider going there because the returns on some of this stuff are insane, but it is hard work.

So those are a couple of plays that we're looking at, but obviously, I mean, you've got so many countries that would be impossible to keep up with. Let's talk about Mauritius a bit more since you've been there, and Mauritius, Seychelles, that region benefits negatives. Yeah, that whole Indian Ocean region, I think Seychelles is kind of known as one of these classic offshore jurisdictions, like Belize, people set up trusts,

and they set up companies, and it doesn't really work anymore. From our point of helping entrepreneurs, setting up shop in these far-flung islands, really isn't what gets banks and everybody else to want to work with you. But to live, I don't know if the Seychelles offers as many opportunities.

Mauritius is more on a radar because if you buy a home, for example, you can get permanent residents. And if you live there and if they like you, you can get citizenship. That's a very eclectic, interesting citizenship. I think Mauritians are one of only four or five countries that can go to both Europe, Russia, China, and then have access to all of Africa.

So if you're predicting the future, that wouldn't be a bad passport to have. I think it's relatively well laid out. It may be on some levels, kind of like a Malaysia, but there's no neighbors to it. So you don't have a lot of the trade going on regionally. But I would call it maybe something like that kind of level of life. You're not going to have some of the conveniences, but if you want a bit slower pace of life where stuff at least works, it's one of those countries

where I feel like the government is a little bit better than some of the people maybe. And it's like a really remarkable story where they've done a good job making it a very well-respected country. I mean, there are one of only two countries in Europe where the citizens can visit Europe without a visa. So that tells you something. I was told a story by Leonard Cohn years ago. He owned a home in Greece and he spent a lot of time in Greece and one day someone came to his house and said, you don't own this house, this is a house that's in my family, and it's not your house. And it was a whole complicated legal thing that went on for a very long time.

Are those types of stories still happening? I think in this city's not so much, I think they've made improvements. George, we mentioned, is kind of move towards the blockchain for keeping track of this kind of stuff. But I'll tell you a story that happened in Georgia, and I don't think the property would have been taken from me, but of how things could have been difficult. I went to a city called Signahi, which is in the wine region.

It's beautiful. Kind of has Sienna or Verona vibes. Anyone can get married 24 hours a day for like $15. They give you a bottle of wine and a book of poems. It's a beautiful job they do. And right off the city center, I mean right off the city center, there's $80,000. There's a foreclosure of the shell

of like a five story building that you can make a hotel, like a boutique hotel. I didn't want to be in a hotel business, but let's check this out with one of my builder friends. We go out there and the bank says, okay, take the guy that we're foreclosing the property from and he'll show you. So it's very kind of like family oriented. It's not like so procedural. But then we're talking to this guy. How much is the property? It's $150,000. We're like, what are you talking about? We call the bank. No, it's 80,000. And basically it came down to, hey, listen,

all these neighbors are my friends. Like Like I've known them for years. You don't want them screwing with you at every turn because they're with me. And so if you don't pay the 150, maybe he didn't say this exactly, but there's a kind of a known commodity in the villages, for example, right? I own some land in Georgia, but it's not in a village.

If it was in a village and I tried to build some beautiful house, people might push back. But I think there's a big difference in those countries between the villages and the cities. And the people in the cities look down on them. And I think in unlike in New York, where like Americans may have a point like, oh, they're so, you know, I think I'll side with the people into Blyce or Athens because it's just like, hey, let's follow the rules. Greece is a country that while it's in the EU, it has had some of those issues. So I think that there's probably improvement.

I think living in kind of defined cities or resort areas is better. I don't know that it's as bad of like you just don't own it. Yeah, I mean, there's corruption in some places. I don't think it's a better people thing. I think the bigger issue is just being screwed with. And I think if you know someone on the ground, which is kind of what we help people do, you would know all those issues going in. If you just go in and think it's the same thing

as buying property in Dana Point, California, you're in for a rude awakening. And that's the goes back to that thing with Americans where it's like, everything must function exactly the same. It doesn't. In Georgia, I can transfer a title to you today, cost 20 bucks. That's been pretty easy. Now, there's some of the softer issues in a village. Other countries, it might take you a year to transfer a title. So, every country's different, some are better, some are better in

different ways than others, but you've got to understand it's not the same. So, you have to be an expert in your role everywhere to be able to deal with these details in all these places because it is different everywhere. We run a service business with decent margins. And yet I said to myself, if the margins accounted for all of my years of going to places like Laos and doing everything that the guy from Dana Point, California, doesn't want to do. He just wants the end result. How do I get a higher yield on my investment?

My yields are zero. I make no profit. I mean, I've done stuff that most people wouldn't want to do. And it's a constant process. I've got a team where we just call people and we sus out their information. And you have to have a network on the ground.

Now again, in Ireland, are you going to be screwed? No. But the way the inspections on a property work once your offer is accepted, it's still different. It's not like, oh my God, someone's going to take advantage of you, but you still want to know how it works. But if you're going to Georgia, it's going to be different. And everyone I know who goes to some of these countries, they're like, oh, I'm going to go look for my own properties. They come back and I'm like, you paid 20% too much. And that's if you're lucky.

I mean, Turkey has a program where you can get citizenship by making an investment in property. And I guess now that air to one can't reelect it, it's going to continue. You invest $400,000 in a property. I did that and my property is up, I don't know, 30 or 40% in dollar terms. I'm like 300% in lear terms, but a lot of people they go and they buy these kind of beautiful developments. In Americans, think, oh, you buy a development, nothing wrong with that.

The developments are just basically ways for developers to screw you because they're worth half, in some cases, immediately. If you don't know that, if you don't know who the bad builders are, I mean, you're going to be screwed. Right. And so, does that mean that their country is such a disaster? No. I mean, I think that happens at some developments in the US. But, you know, what was that they were talking? One Trump was running, oh, the guy is in Tampa. He licensed his name too. They didn't build it. But it comes down to, you've got to know how the other place works. Have you lived in primarily Buddhist country? I don't think I have.

Yeah, where would that be? I mean, I've spent a lot of time in China like 12, 13 years ago, and I'm glad I did it then. There's obviously, you know, some parts of that are Buddhist, but most not. You know, I'll tell you this though, there's a great book called The Jagaffa Bliss. It's a bit old now, but they talked about countries like Bhutan and just how happy people are. And maybe you're curious, like, are the people happier? Yeah. I don't know that it's only about Buddhist.

I mean, I think that again, Malaysia, Philippines, you've got some of the happiest people. That's a big change because, you know, you always hear in the West, oh, the Danish are the happiest people. I mean, I don't know, maybe they are. I bought one of those books from like the Danish art of happiness the whole book is like light of candle and have a piece of chocolate I will compare having been to all these countries in Europe I will gladly put up the people in Southeast Asia as being just as happy I was in Lesotho in Africa. I wasn't there long enough, but I got the sense that maybe they're

Some of the people are pretty happy and I think that happiness exists in interesting places. Tell me about the YouTube channel. How did it start? I think my secret of success is I just put one foot in front of the other. And so we had a, I mean, when I started, what was a blog? And I was in the process of selling everything in the US. I bought NomadCopolis.com and I figured I'll just be a guy who travels and I'll find investments in parts of the world and I'll just work on my deals in whatever country. And maybe I can be a media creature and talk about it. And so I reserved the domain.

I set up like a radio show. It was like a podcast that was on the radio. And I started, I was my opportunity to interview all these guys and just start to build connections with consultants and people who, you know, whatever they did business in China, Mongolia, whatever else. And so we put this up on YouTube and then I forgot about it for a few years.

And then I just started kind of saying, I wanna have a voice on stuff that's happening and kind of maybe speak to some of these misconceptions people have and it just kind of exploded. I don't even know. I just think it was very entrepreneurial. You put some stuff out. People respond. You go here, you zig, you zag. And I come from a broadcasting background. I think it's a skill that I have. And it just kind of got better and better and better. And I never really thought like, I'll be reaching the right people. I just, to me, was about sharing the message.

And from that, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of leakage in terms of people who just aren't gonna work with you. Especially when you do stuff that goes viral, you get a lot of people who just wanna criticize like, oh, you know, the stuff we're talking about. Oh, this goes in Mexico, get ready to be killed. But I just always looked at it as the message, and yet I guess from a top of the funnel perspective,

you got enough of those people to say, yeah, I like this, this is honest. I think that's what's in missing, Rick, when I came into this, everyone said, are you gonna have a pen name? This is 2012, I was talking about doing this, and sharing my expertise, and everybody in the industry had a pen name that you're using stock photos

I said, you know, that seems like 90s to me People want transparency and this business has a bad image. I want Reel-on-chpreneurs the kinds that I hang out with to want to go where they're treated best I don't want shady people hiding under a rock Like I want fully legal fully above board and I want shady people hiding under a rock. Like, I want fully legal, fully above board, and I want the people that that attract. So you're not gonna get that by being like, oh, here's a stock photo.

So for me, YouTube was kind of a natural transition to. Let's bring some sunlight and show people. This is not just people who are like trying to hide their money, like the Wolf of Wall Street, the Swiss bank. This is something you can do legally, and it's worth it. You recommended people from New York and California not moving to Florida and Texas, but to go further. Yeah.

Let's talk about that. It's interesting because I know so many people in California who move to Texas, and I know quite a few people in New York who move to Florida. The only exception I would say is, if you're an ex-pat for US tax purposes, removing your California doma cell first is not a bad idea. But the idea of, I'm tired of California, so I'm gonna move to Florida or Texas, whatever.

First of all, from a tax perspective, oh, the taxes are so much lower, well, the biggest tax is the federal tax. For some people, even if you make, you know, 100 grand in some cases, the bigger tax is the social security and manicure, the payroll tax, if you're self-employed. I mean, sure, if you make millions of dollars a year, you can save decent money by moving to those places. You do see, by the way, that like, Texas has much higher property taxes.

So you're paying in some way. Again, the more money you make, the more you can arbitrage that. But if you're going to move, you might as well move. Number one, if you live in New York, I would bet that perhaps Dublin or London is harder to get into if you're not a citizen. But I'd argue that's more culturally rough now eventually all the New Yorkers will go to Florida and all the New Yorkers will bring New York politics to Florida by the way So you'll have some of the same problems again

I would argue that culturally speaking is a place that's closer if you're in California Maybe living in Baja would be better for you Maybe living in somewhere in Southeast Asia would actually be more similar to what you're used to But I just don't know what people go through this great effort. They talk about, oh, my kids have to change schools if I go overseas. What your kids have to change schools if you move to Florida. So if you're gonna do it, why don't you just do it and push the pedal all the way to the metal and just do it right. And so yes, I mean, I have a business that focuses on the tax side. That's what makes money. And so you're not,, I have a business that focuses on the tax side. That's what makes money.

And so you're not, you can save 90% off shore, you can save 20% in Florida. But I just happen to think that you're going to have to adapt regardless, right? I mean, don't you think? Yes. And as part of that adaptation, let's talk about medical care in the US versus other places. Tell me about it. I go back to Malaysia, Prince Court Hospital. I mean, this place is like a museum. I did a check up there recently. They checked everything. They did ultrasound. They did bone scans. They did everything. And you actually got paid attention to by the doctor. I must have sat there and shot the breeze with her for 25 minutes.

It was 300 bucks. And she spent 10 years studying and living in London. So she didn't go to some weird school. I mean, they all, I don't think you can practice at that hospital if you didn't go to school in the UK. And I think that the quality of care I've seen, I had an issue when I was in Thailand 10 years ago. I lost a bunch of weight, which I think living outside of the US just does to you.

The doctor was just like, listen, we checked you. You're fine. Good to make Donalds have a hamburger. I contrast that to when I got like a context stuck in my eye and it cost $2,000 to go to the emergency room. And I'm like, you know, like some scared kid. I'm like, could I die? I'm like, we can't roll it out.

And I'm like, listen, how about you charge me 300 bucks? You do a full review, you're pleasant. You actually listen to me rather than bum rushing me out in 30 seconds, you know, it's just, it's like real care. And so when people say, hey, that's the flip side of things being a bit less formal than they are in the US in these countries, is there a bit less formal in all the good ways too?

Thailand's good for health care. Malaysia's my personal favorite. I guess Singapore is not really any cheaper, but I've gotten good care all over the world. The worst health care I've gotten has been in the United States, and look at what you pay for it. Why do you think people are so nice in other parts of the world and people in the US don't seem to manage that? What do you think it is? I imagine there's places in the US where people are nice, but I think that, I mean, the political system, I've been watching my entire life.

I mean, it's been dividing conquer my entire life. Obviously, politics exist everywhere, but I think people really, I mean, first of all, you have a country that's so different in so many ways. I mean, look at Europe. I mean, Moldova, There's parts of Moldova that want to break off. Like, listen, we're nothing like those guys 20 miles away. So it's really remarkable how the US has stayed together, but you're seeing how people with different views

are at each other's throats now. Listen, I believe in work. I'm a workaholic. I, you know, I, so I don't want to say like sitting around and doing nothing is the answer. But I will say that people who have goals beyond materialism exist outside of the US. And that's the one thing I kind of get to set when people pick on the US is like let them do what they want. But obviously it's not leading to happiness for many people. Again, I go back to the malaise. What are their goals? But when I wake up, I want to have three good meals.

The question you ask someone in Malaysia, if you want to show you care, like what would you ask your kids, have you eaten? It's an eating culture. People want to eat of the local population. Their goal is to buy a bike and then their goal is to buy a local made parodua or proton car. Obviously, the Malaysian Chinese, maybe they want to buy them Mercedes, but the local, the Malay people who run the country, they don't have a lot of aspirations. And so I think there's something that we can learn from that. And I could never be at that level, but I'm closer to the level being around people who are just genuinely nice. You know, being like fake nice, and then the moment someone raises their voice, five decibels, and you start exploding at them

That's not nice Nice is I'm just chill all the time. I take nothing personally. I wish nobody ill and it really is remarkable I mean by the way you'll meet my wife like these friends the most stunning women in the world and They're like just genuinely like oh, I wish everybody well No pettiness, none of that. I think that's probably true in a lot of these places, but it's true. It seems like it's true with the weather's better, by the way. Like when you don't have to worry about like preparing for winter, that seems like that helps.

It seems like weather is a key. I know for me weather is a key in the choices that I make of where I go and when. And we can choose to live in a summer like Experience all year long if we choose to is this correct and What I what what I found was like I Don't want four months. I mean I grew up with five months of snow But you know what it's nice to have two weeks of snow So whether you buy a ski shell a is an investment somewhere or you just rent something I think

it's nice to go to the Christmas markets in Europe, but you want a little snow. Go and see the nutcracker at the opera house, like to say, summer 365 days a year, I think probably gets old. But you get to choose just exactly how much you want. Let's talk about education in different parts of the world. My philosophy, were to have children,

and I've talked about this, I would hire a tutor. I think the people who want to live in the Western countries, you can, I mean, you can go to countries like Ireland, it's tax-friendly, people are nice, but I think that Western countries are gonna follow a more progressive education model

than some of the people that I've talked to don't want their kids to hear. You can certainly send your kids to international schools in any places that we've talked about. They exist, they're good. You can certainly at home school, and there are many countries that allow you to do that, including most of the ones we've talked about today.

For me, I would say, where can I find... I mean, when you do this global citizenship thing, here's an extra benefit. If you run a business, you say, where can I hire people? Some of our best team members are making triple with all their friends make in their country, and it's one third of what we'd pay in the US, and their three times is good,

and the attitudes are better, because they're hungry. And the same thing I would apply to, let me find a tutor for my child. And so at this point, I'm looking for, if I'm gonna buy a new house, is there room somewhere for like a tutor to live, looking forward? And if the homeschooling's allowed in the countries

we're talking about, you can create your own curriculum and have someone who's an experienced person who knows, by the way, talk with the Balkans. Some of the most educated people on geography, history, et cetera, I'd rather have them teaching my kids about that stuff than someone in the United States. So let's find the best educators in the world for our kids. And again, if you move to Malaysia, just let's run down that example.

Your cost of living versus New York is 70% less, something like that, whatever lifestyle you choose, your taxes are potentially aided 90% less. You've got a lot of money suddenly, even if you're not like a gazillionaire, to say, yeah, I'm going to hire a private tutor from Romania, the best, and pay them $50,000 a year, and my Malaysian immigration pass allows me to bring one personal staff member in and of my pass. I don't have to get them their own immigration. That's very doable. And by the way, not only the savings, but I would imagine the education will be substantially better. Our experience is we have a tutor who we met in Costa Rica and she wasn't allowed to come. She's not allowed in the United States So that's not a recon issue she's close to recon so that was an issue of like if his teacher can come do we even want to come back?

Yeah, the US people don't realize him again. I think Americans don't realize I remember my parents came to Malaysia And we had a dinner with one of my friends from Egypt and they said oh if you visited the US and I'm like guys She's a 35-year-old single friends from Egypt. And they said, oh, if you visited the US, and I'm like, guys, she's a 35 year old single woman from Egypt. And this was during, like when Trump was in and whether you agree or not, if they were talking about the Muslim ban, she's not practicing Muslim, but she is by birth Muslim.

Like those people don't get visas, right? I mean, if you look up the adjusted refusal rates for visas, it's probably 50% in Egypt, right? And many people don't even bother trying. So, I mean, if your goal was to hire a tutor who could go to the United States, the work requirements, I'm sure, are very complicated. I don't deal with all that, but, I mean,

just the fact that they'd be quote-unquote working for, you could be an issue, but you'd have to hire someone from Croatia or something, or Poland. I mean, they recently got access to the US. So you could do that if that was a goal and you could work at the legalities of having them work for you three months a year. But the US is one of the least inviting places

and people don't realize how difficult it is. When I got set up with my residents in Ireland, I think we got an answer in three weeks. And they actually made a mistake the first time and we emailed them. They overly apologized for their mistake and they corrected it within 24 hours. I know US immigration attorneys who are waiting for their clients five years and they've got to sue the government just to get someone a decision. So go where you're treated best, man. You know, go to the US in the summer or something. Tell me a bit about passports. Well, I got about five these days.

I got rid of the US one because I just felt it was not going to be easy going forward to be an expat. I never particularly cared for the identity. Obviously, in a place like Ireland, people hear the accent. But most places they don't. I think everyone needs at least two. I think three could be a good idea. If you have someone in your family tree, that could be an option for practically nothing.

How easy is that? Well, everything's easy and nothing's easy. I mean, so in my case, I just spent nine years, some years more active than others, running around the world collecting documents from my Lithuanian citizenship. At the end, they left two years too early, sorry. But we had to go to various locations. I had a friend doing it for Romania. He had to go to the village and then he finds that the village, whatever town hall, burned down. So I mean, sometimes it's easy. Sometimes you have the record sitting in your safe at home and that's just okay, we

put together the case, we file it. Sometimes you've got to go schlepping all over the world to find some, I had to find a piece of paper from the US saying my ancestor was Lithuanian. I said, they don't really do that in the US. Like, once you're American, you're American, right? It's not like, we finally found something, but at the end it wasn't good enough.

So we have people who they just, you know, hey, my grandfather was Italian, here's the documents, we file it and it's done, and we have some like mine where it's nine years of off-an-on, you know, palabring, but the benefit of that is, you know, we help people get citizenship in the Caribbean and other countries where they're making a donation or in Turkey, they're buying property.

It's economic. Bring in some cash. We'll give you citizenship in a matter of months. That's efficient. If you need a citizenship quickly, that's probably the fastest way to do it. Italian, you might wait three, four, five years, even if your case is easy. Just the filing because they're not in a hurry, right? But the benefit of Italian, I wasn't, I might do both. I might get a Caribbean citizenship as a backup plan now. I might, you know, look at where I can move to get citizenship

now. We mentioned Ecuador or something. It's different. And then I would get the one through my family tree because if I'm Italian, I can live anywhere in Europe. And so now I've got like 30 different countries, whether it's taxes, freedom, whatever I'm looking for, that's a lot of options, almost like 30 different states I can move to. People poop who turkey, I'm not saying turkeys for everybody, but the fact that I can buy property. If I buy it correctly, I won't lose money. I can sell it in three years and I get a citizenship to keep for life from a country that

look at what they've done in the war. They're playing it neutral. They have the economic heft to do that. It's a growing country. It's a little bit off the radar, but maybe off the radar is what you want sometimes. In the same way that I wouldn't mind being Ecuadorian, I wouldn't mind being Nicaragua. And everybody kind of complains, oh Nicaragua,

I had a guy from Nicaragua come to a party and say, I have the worst passport. I said, no, you have one of the best passports, but why was he the worst in his mind? He can't go to the US. That's his only metric for whether the passport's good or not. He needs a visa and they don't like Nika Raiwan's that much. He can go to the UK, he can go to Europe,

he can get a residence permit anywhere he wants, but he can't visit the US without a visa. Well, if you're already American or if you're already European, you can go to the US without a visa. You want something a little different in the mix. If you can get the kind of sort of similar European passport as an American through your family tree, just take it. It's practically free. But for what I

would intentionally create, I want a place that leaves me alone. I want something different. I've never considered leaving the US even though I probably in the last five years have spent no more than three or four months per year in the US. And just hearing you talk makes me wonder what would that look like? To give up citizenship. I never, again, never considered it before, but I'm interested. Well, to give up your citizenship, I mean, it's obviously a big move. And I think that, you know, we had people who was only a financial thing,

is clients, a lot of these cryptocurrency people, because the US is really the only country. There's a few that kind of sort of do it, but the US is the only country that really full scale taxes you no matter where you live, just because you're a citizen. Every other country, hey, I'm Canadian, I'm not gonna live here anymore.

And it's harder than people think, but you can come back for two or three months a year, and you can say, I'm Canadian. I'm not gonna live here anymore. And it's harder than people think, but you can come back for two or three months a year and you can say, I'm Canadian, passport holder, Canadian citizen, but I live somewhere else, stop taxing me. The US you can't. Now, there's the foreign or ninkemi exclusion. There's very, you can have a foreign corporate.

There's things you can do, you can get it down to some percentage. You can potentially get it down to zero for some people. Others might get it down to 10% ish. So you're still dramatically saving taxes. But we've had people, now if you're doing investing, you can't save those taxes. Only active income really can be protected from US tax. So some people say that's unfair. I don't want to pay. And they make a financial decision. I think it's always much more complicated than that. I've had people who make millions and they make a financial decision. I think it's always much more complicated than that. I've had people who make millions

and they just wanna come back and visit their grandmother and they wouldn't give it up because they're afraid they can't come back. Our experience has been, if you give it up and you have a good passport, let's say you get one of those ancestry passports, people have come back on those through the Visa Waver program.

Now you're limited in the US the same way You were limited you're talking about going to Italy. You can't you know, you can't live there But if you did not have one of the 42 were so passports You would have to get a visa like anybody else and so I mean I would imagine if you're allowed bath as I am and you talk about how you know the US is going in the wrong direction a lot of people you people in the consular office probably take that a little personally. And some of these guys and some of these countries

get paid bonuses to reject a certain number of people. I'm sure in Nicaragua, it's like, hey listen, if you reject 50% of people or more, we give you a cash bonus because they have an overstate problem. Don't you think that if you're working towards a quota, the evil nasty trader would be an easy guy to reject, you know? And yet, you know, maybe if you're Rick Rubin, maybe it's like, hey, we get it.

We've had people who've given up citizenship to get another one where they can't have dual. All right, we get it. But you're just, if you don't have one of those 42 or so great passports where you can generally just come back in, by the way, even then, criminal record, drug use, if you've been to Iran or Somalia, you're still going to be out. So I just, you really have to decide, can I live without the U.S.?

And if you can, then you're off the hook for taxes, you're off the hook for everything else, they don't bother you, there's no filings, there's no regulations. Tell me about your book. I wrote the book, No, My Acropolis. I've always wanted to write a book since I was six years old. And I thought sharing some of the stories would be a good idea. One of the things that the people who don't like the book or critical of

is there's not a lot of actionable stuff. The actionable stuff in my world changes by the week. We're not just like, hey, move to Dubai, we'll set up your company, get your residents permit. I mean, we're dealing, I think we put together a list. We've helped clients with like 82 different countries, something like that. 31 tax-friendly countries moved to. This stuff changes by the week.

If you put together a how-to guy to be out of date, but it's a largely collection of stories that help you realize the kind of stuff we're talking about, hey, here's how this works. Hey, have you considered this? And so there's the good, oh my goodness, I never thought that was possible, right? People don't realize my grandfather was Italian, I could get Italian citizenship

and I can live anywhere in Europe or not. It's an option. And there's also the bad. Yeah, you can't just walk into a bag and Singapore with 50 bucks and say, give me an account. And so I think it hopefully gives people a guideline for starting this, what's possible and what's not by telling stories of my experiences around the world. So it's designed to be inspirational. And it kind of aggregates some of that content into one place. Can you give examples of some of the changes in, let's say,

the last 10 years, something that you may have recommended 10 years ago that is impossible anymore? My understanding of that would be, for example, I have a bank account in Singapore. You cannot get a bank account there, and they don't want to upgrade me, because they look at me as like, you don't live here, I wouldn't really like you. But they don't close my bank account that I have now. So if I want the super fancy bank account,

I'm not gonna get upgraded to that. So it's grandfathered in. I, yes, that's why the term I've used, yes. I am grandfathered in it. Now, there's other banks in Singapore where they're like, oh yeah, please come in, we'd love to have you as our private banking client. And so, you know, there are other options,

but I think banks have become increasingly difficult. The level of scrutiny to open these accounts has become even more difficult. The biggest thing I've seen is the closing residents in citizenship programs. To me, if I want the ultimate protection, I'd like to have citizenship or secondarily residents in different countries where I can go,

look at during the pandemic, am I welcome or am I not welcome? If I'm a citizen, I'm welcome. In some cases, if I'm a resident like in Colombia, I was able to fly above all the restrictions because I was a permanent resident. It's a tourist you couldn't come. And once you were in the country, when I was there,

it was pretty good. But I had that higher status. Most of those programs, I mean, a lot of those programs have gone away. We just saw the recent closure of the Portugal Golden Visa. That was a program where if you're in, you can get European citizenship in about five years. Now the wait times are a little bit ridiculous. But once you're approved, it's five years. You'll learn a little Portuguese

very basic. And you get citizenship by spending a week a year there. So that was if you don't have the family tree, that's a way to get into Europe and have that access to be able to travel as good as an American does, to be able to live all over Europe and Now it's gone. So all the good programs keep getting killed and who who killed with a new program this year? Namibia Most Americans are not going to want to go to Namibia Right, so I mean eventually Ireland also closed their golden visa. They've got other ways. Now, these countries have other ways. You can move there, but the idea of,

you don't have to commit to us. That's going out the window over the last 10 years. You can move to Portugal now on a self-sufficient visa, but you've got to live there six, seven, eight months. So if you're just looking for an option, that ain't working for you anymore, right? And so the country that allows the options

is not gonna give you that top tier EU passport in five years. So I just think it's like countries are just saying, we're worth it. And you may not think as an American that this is that why did they keep raising the price? Because everybody outside of the West wants a backup plan and increasingly they can afford it. The market, I was the only guy until the pandemic talking about Americans getting second passports. People thought I was a loon. Now it's becoming the biggest growth market of the world because Americans are realizing, oh my god, during the pandemic, we were stuck. Our passport was as good as an African passport.

So now it's a growth market. But the market for years has been the 90% of people who are not Western and they are driving up the price. So you're just seeing fewer and they are driving up the price. So you're just seeing fewer and fewer places that you can go. But once you're in, if you have a Portugal golden visa now, you will still be able to follow that path. So I think it's an issue of people thinking, oh, there's always going to be, it's a very American thought.

There's always going to be an option available. And there will. But last year was Portugal, and this year it's Namibia. What did it just be easy just to do it when you have the option you want? And for the people who Got the Portugal passport when they could they have a Portugal passport forever It's not revoked because the program was well So they got Portugal residents and they're working towards a passport and they're grandfathering everybody who was into that residence into the rules

Right, so there's there's a golden visa. there's a residence where you're working towards it. And what was cool about Portugal is you don't have to be there very much to do that working to it, right? If you want to be a US citizen, you've got to live there practically full time for five or six years and pay taxes and everything else. These other countries are saying,

don't pay us tax, don't come that often. Just poke your head in once in a while and we'll put you on the same track to citizenship because you made an investment. That's what's increasingly going away. But yeah, unless you've committed fraud, unless you say, if I apply for Caribbean citizenship, I'm saying Lucian, if I lied,

same as in any country they can take it away, but as long as you didn't lie, it's yours for life. And not only that, if you're Portuguese citizen, now your children can become, they can pass it down, they can, you're making a decision of all last generations. To go to your point education, by the way, to go to your point education,

if you're an EU citizen, you're gonna have special privileges to send your kids, talk about how to save hundreds of thousands of dollars versus sending your kids to university in the US. Tell me about banking in different parts of the world. If you're an American citizen, is there benefit in having a banking relationship outside of the US? For sure.

I don't want to keep all my eggs in one basket. And so if you're an American, you do need to file some forms. If you work with the tax people that we work with, who know international stuff, it's very easy and very, very inexpensive. My tax bill actually went down for tax prep when I left the US. people that we work with who know international stuff, it's very easy and very, very inexpensive. My tax bill actually went down for tax prep when I left the US, so it doesn't have to be expensive, but most domestic accountants will not know how to handle those forms, so you'll get in trouble.

But it's not that hard. That's the legal caveat. There's never been a bank failure that I'm aware of in Singapore. The last one in Austria was like in 1931. You see, I mean, you saw three high profile bank failures in the US just this year. And what was it? It was the FDIC. Yeah. You know, should we pay everybody?

Should we not? How do I feel today? You know, what is my mood today? Should we pay the people or not? That scares me. If you look at the safest banks in the world, there are none in the top 50 there in the US. And so just say to myself I can earn higher interest rates in many cases overseas I can be in other currencies is a hedge. I can be in safer banks now

Canadian and Australian banks are safer. There are some of those in the top 50 So there's less of an impotency if you're there, but look at what happening Canada last year You gave money to something that we don't like. We're going to freeze your account. Again, somehow if they did that in Russia, people will be up in arms. If they do it in Canada, eh, whatever. Who knows what could happen? I woke up one day, many, many, many years ago.

California took a bunch of money out of my account. You didn't pay your taxes for the year that you were living here. I had a canceled check that I did pay my taxes, but that was no, that was not of interest to them. I had to spend weeks and months fighting them. And what if I needed that money to pay something? Would it have been nice to have some money that they had to go through a little bit more due process than just waking up and pushing a button to freeze? And so that happens to people who do things legally all the time. You've seen the stories, the woman sells burritos in the bank flags here for depositing too much cash. And she's got to spend her entire life savings. I mean,

okay, those are isolated examples. But do I trust one country with the entirety of my life savings? I don't know why anyone would. And you would say, the best time to start this would be now. There'd be no reason to project. Oh, someday I'll grow into being able to do this. Then I'll start thinking about having a second residency. If you say, hey, listen, I'm just going to go down with the ship. No matter what happens, I guess you don't need to do it. But I'll tell you, we saw this during the pandemic.

We had people who were watching us for years. And they said, okay, this is kind of fun. My friend calls it, he's like, your business is kind of like a romance novel for men I've a lot of people watch it and I just like oh, that sounds exciting But they're not gonna do it and suddenly people started doing it. Oh my god. I'm stuck. I can't travel I want to be like I don't have any freedom anymore and They were calling now the citizenship by investment countries, where you make a donation, they give you a passport, they actually sped up because they wanted to be able

to get more money. You know, some of the digitized things, they improved. That's an argument in my side for having, you know, smaller countries that realized where their bread is buttered. But those people, I mean, it was still taking a little bit longer. And some of them, they had some adverse consequences. It could have been they couldn't go where they wanted to go to get out.

They missed business meetings because they couldn't travel. Some of them, you know, I mean, the US, we was not allowing people to renounce. I think there were six embassies at one point that were open for you to renounce. And so people who were making a lot of money, we had people who started making money during the pandemic. They became genius traders or crypto investors. They started a Shopify business. And suddenly, they're bumping up against that $2 million that if you have less than,

you can renounce and your life is easy. And if you're more than, your life is hard. And they couldn't figure it out. And they couldn't get the passport in time. And so I just, I never knew what would happen, but I just said it's a good idea to be diversified. And I've seen how I've saved money and saved hassle by having passports, residences, bank accounts ahead of time.

It's always paid off for me. So I think if you believe in doing it, you gotta do it now because the options are, the good options are gonna shrink. Number one, don't be so dogmatic against Turkey or maybe or whatever else, but realize the options that you're going to be most comfortable doing are the ones that everyone wants and they're eventually going to go away whether it's because of pressure from the EU, whether it's because just the

country is rich enough. I mean Ireland has a two billion euro surplus. I know that no one in the US knows that that means, right? They mean they took in more money than they spent. They don't need what that means, right? They mean they took in more money than they spent. They don't need any more money, right? They need workers. If you wanna work and you're gonna have a good paying job, they want you to come and work, and that could include you start your own company

and work and hire a few Irish people. Fine, we're all for that. We need jobs, we need more workers, but we don't need more money. So why would we have a program that it could last a little invest and come and live here and work towards the passport? We don't need it. The So why will we have a program that it can last a little invest and come and live here and work towards the passport? We don't need it.

The idea of talents an interesting one. If you remember when Amazon decided they were going to open a second home base and they had a contest, why doesn't that happen with people as well? Why aren't people enticed to come to places based on talent in different parts of the world? I think there are some that do do that. I mean, there was kind of a mini explosion on the island of Sark, not so far from here,

one of the British crown dependencies, I think it is. No taxes of any kind, no rules, I just, you know, everyone come to Sark and it's just tiny little island, but they were doing stuff like that during the pandemic, you know, everyone come to Sarc and it's just tiny little island But they were you know doing stuff like that during the pandemic, you know come to Sarc You know Chile for example had startup Chile for many years We'll just give you money come and start your startup here. Here's some cat. We don't want to equate just take our cash So there are examples of that. I think that again I and you and I kind of come from an American background and I think what we see is people really give a pass to where they're from and they poo poo everything else. I mean, you know, we have people who watch our stuff and I'll say, oh yeah, come to our

event in Mexico last two years or come to Malaysia. And just, you know, the comments we get from people, they would think that like, the population of Mexico is zero because everyone's been killed. I just, it's just shocking the dog my people have. And I think that's why you don't see it covered. But there are countries that are doing that kind of stuff. Why don't people demand countries compete? People need to say, my country's the best, almost why they need their sports team to win. I mean, I come from Cleveland, the Cleveland Browns, one zero one season. I don't know how you support a team that wins zero.

I don't wanna be, what, cause I'm born, cause like my mother was hanging out in this area of the country. And like we just started, like now I've gotta support this terrible sports team. But people do, like they, it's part of their identity, I guess.

I don't get it, but yes, I mean, people should say, hey, what's the best place to start a business? And it's, oh, it's not just low taxes because some of these places in the Gulf that have very low taxes, you can't get a bloaty notary to show up for three months. So that's not the answer, but to me, breaking things down into parts is the answer. Where's the best place to bank? That's probably not the best place to live. If I'm living in Italy, I don't want to be banking in Italy other than for day-to-day transactions. But Italy has a lump sum tax regime where they can just, they say, okay, pay us our little

chunk every year and we'll leave you alone, do whatever else you want offshore. It's on the bank in Singapore or on the bank in Switzerland next door or people don't break it down into constituent parts first of all and then they get into the dog well we could go on about this all day but I think that's the reason. Tell me about the strengths and weaknesses of America today from your perspective. I think the dog was a big weakness. I'm a big believer in self-awareness. If you take two employees and one is from a part of Eastern Europe where their only goal is defending themselves and it's a winner lose, I'll take the person

with more nuance over that. Who can say, hey, now what I get, I made a mistake and I'm learning from it. I don't think a country with 300 million people does a lot of self-awareness, especially in this position. And thinking will always be the best because if you're a limited version of history, it's not a very good way to be successful. Shaking things up and attracting things is a good way to be successful. So that's the thing at the serious weakness. I think that people in much of the West have been kind of spoiled. I don't think it's what builds successful societies. And for the first time ever, you have competition. Steve Bannon was the Trump advisor who said, we hollowed out the middle class in the United States to build

one in Asia. As if Asia does not deserve to have a middle class, go and eat your rice and accept your $1 a day. That's the way that people think it should be. I mean, let's be honest. That's a weak. You know, when the Iraq war happened, everyone's like, oh, this is terrible. And I said, yeah, wait, if gas becomes, you know, $6 a gallon, they'll say, hey, what other countries can we invade? Because I need cheaper gas. Nobody cares. And so I just think that this kind of detachment from reality that other countries aren't going

to become more successful. You see, I mean, we had 50-some percent extreme poverty in 1960. It went down to 8 percent before the pandemic other people are getting wealthy. There are gonna be other places to go and So a guy like me I have two American employees and they don't live in the US I've gone where I'm treated best and I found the best talent and Oftentimes it's more affordable and so that means that's 60 people who I might have hired in the US in a different life who aren't being hired there. What are the strengths?

The US is an entrepreneurial culture. My fear with that, and people say, even in Canada, we leave Canada to go to the US because Canada cuts down the tall trees. You do hear that in some Western cultures. That's why you see entrepreneurs go to the US. My challenge with that is, it's such a small percentage of the population.

And the other population is increasingly saying, we don't wanna work, I go and LinkedIn. I mean, it's just like every reason to not work. And that's kind of being accepted. And I don't know how you have two percent of the population that drives an uncooperative 98% and you get a lot of stuff done. I just don't know how you have two percent of the population that drives an uncooperative 90, 98% and you get a lot of stuff done. I just don't know how it works. So there is a sense of entrepreneurship.

And maybe there's something I'm missing, but I just don't think that they're leaders in freedom anymore. I think they're leaders in the brand called freedom. Right? And you look at all the politicians. It's just, it's such a fungible concept, freedom. We have freedom. What does that mean? Nobody can tell you.

And that to me is when you realize, again, if I told an employee to find what you just said, some corporate employee, like tell me what that means. And they can't. That means you don't have it. So I think that besides that entrepreneurial spirit, which will increasingly be at odds with people who don't want to work.

I don't know what else there is other than your own personal issues. I just like it here. Would you like it somewhere else? I got to check it out. There was something you said earlier about living in a place where the people are happy that sounds like a, nice choice. Yeah, I mean, I've always been go, go, go. I didn't optimize much of my life for happiness, but a number of years ago, my wife said to me,

we would go to all these different places to say, well, these people here are really kind. And I realized that's a value, not even niceness. I mean, niceness is almost kind of fake, polite, whatever, kindness. That is important. And I'll take it one step further. In Georgia, some of the most loyal friends you'll ever have. I think in any kind of place like that where it's a little bit more laid back and more family oriented and smaller and like everybody knows each other to a certain extent,

I mean, I could tell you, first of all, everyone I know has left something in a taxi in Georgia and the guy comes and like finds them and brings it back. $5,000 camera, hey, you forgot this. I had things where like I needed help right away. Somebody came in the US, they wouldn't do that, you know, we're busy. So you start to realize I'm a big believer in work and building things that you're passionate about. But it's also nice to say, hey, when your friends need help, you'd be there. You'd set that aside. I don't think people in the US would have. So I think kindness is key and I think loyalty is key.

And I think there's probably a lot of that lacking in the US and probably most other Western countries these days. Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing this information. I think it's really helpful. Most of the people who grew up, or I grew up, still live in the same town that I grew up in. Most of them. The idea that there's much more available to us if we're willing to experiment and look and see what's there. I feel like your work really inspires that curiosity. Well, I appreciate that. There's a lot of opportunities, and I think that it's definitely worth people reviewing all the options, considering how many more options there are now than there were 25 years ago. The world has changed remarkably, and I think we have to kind of update our

on operating systems to reflect that. Great. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. you