Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Ariel Emanuel

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Ariel Emanuel is the CEO of Endeavor and TKO Group Holdings. Emanuel co-founded the Endeavor talent agency in 1995 and has grown it into one of the most influential sports and entertainment companies in the world. Known for his dynamic and direct dealmaking style, Ariel has played a vital role in shaping the careers of high-profile clients and the entertainment industry as a whole. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra ------ Lucy https://lucy.co/tetra ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra ------ House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra

Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Sunday night, WrestleMania, big events on.

And we were a bunch of people over to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym.

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I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym.

I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna go to the gym. comes out with Roman and the look left look right and I said it just starts all flashing back I said that's a throwback to Hulk Dwayne's doing this reciprocal I just start reciting you know where Roman comes from the whole storylines back and forth. The bloodline story. The bloodline. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's the greatest story in the history of wrestling.

I started watching with my grandfather Amazing Sundays when the regions happened. Yeah crusher in the bruiser. Yep, right and going back with Vince I think it's 25 years when Vince they couldn't sell it and he started his advertising business. We were out doing that and We moved it from USA to spike got sued by Barry Diller Vince, they couldn't sell it and he started his advertising business. We were out doing that. We moved it from USA to Spike, got sued by Barry Diller. Then moved it back to USA. All the different. It's such an interesting business

and it feels like no one knows about it. Well now they're beginning to know about it. Maybe, but still. No, no, still, it's not a friend. It's the biggest underground thing in the world. It's counterculture. It has always been. Yes, but it is, when you think about it, he touched culture.

He influenced culture. He was like way ahead of culture. Every step of the way. Every step of the way. Every step of the way. And I said it to him at one point. I said, you were Andy Kaufman. When you were Mr. McMahon and Vince McMahon. Yeah. And they just constantly lapped on each other. Yeah, the story of the creation of the character of Vince McMahon was really interesting because it wasn't intentional. No. It happened because

he had to get the ratings up and he had to have that storyline of when they were going to the extremes because you had Ted Turner there and... Yeah. But also because he pissed off Bret the Hitman Hart, who then spit in his face on television... Because he wouldn't give up the title. When he was Vince McMahon, yeah, exactly, Bret screwed Bret. We all know the story. But then, based on the experience in real life,

he turned it into part of the show. And they always do that. That was his genius. And then he brings the whole family and when the Linda and the other women and the daughter. I mean, it's just, the guy was one of the greatest. There's nothing else like that, where it's sort of scripted, sort of,

but then- But then it just free-float. But then real life intervenes and it gets weaved in and the audience never really knows was that supposed to happen? That's part of being a wrestling fan. That's the genie stuff. Is you're always watching, it's like,

was that supposed to happen? Yeah. Was that real? Yeah. Or was that like- was that scripted? When somebody gets hurt, it's like, well they broke their arm. Did they?

Are they hurt? If you remember, Mr. McMahon blew up in a car at one point in time. Oh yeah. How about remember when his, was it his thigh? Like he blew out his whole match. Yeah, in a match. Yeah, for real.

For real. Yeah, yeah. You know, know for me when I was sitting there and I was telling everybody all the things that were going on and when the when it went back and The Undertaker I kind of like here's what the Undertaker was and I was like, oh my god I just have so much history and knowledge and so cool that it was Marty Aileman who was a partner at the time and I saw it and We said we got to sign him and we realized he was the same thing. I was 25 years ago 20 years 25 or 26 and then Marty and I mainly Marty saw like the star power of Dwayne that he could

Transition in was there a moment in time with Rock is the biggest box office star in the world? He is now. He's one of them. It's unbelievable. Yeah. And without wrestling, that guy's not an actor. I mean, I don't think that that happened. I don't think he would think he would be an actor

without wrestling. But also he's such a good businessman and you learn inside the power of how to sell and that's what Vince taught everybody. And now Paul's taken over the storylines, which I think are kind of gone to another level. I thought this WrestleMania was the best. The only one that might have been close,

Andre and Hulk in Detroit. But if you watch it now, it doesn't hold up. I haven't watched it in a long time. At the time, it was tremendous. At the time, it was tremendous. At the time it was tremendous, but that was 36 years ago. It was WrestleMania III. Yeah.

Well, he needed to do that. Again, he comes up with WrestleMania. He's Super Bowl. Yeah, genius. Underappreciated genius. Yeah. He's like Walt Disney. Oh, incredible.

He's like Steve Jobs. He's like Steve Jobs. It's like that. Yeah, no question. How would you say the pro wrestling business and MMA business are different? How are they the same and how are they different? Well, Dana saw somebody nobody else saw. Dana is as good as it get in promotion.

Realizes how to create fights, and he also, over time, realized social media before anybody, how to communicate. He's not leveraged that better than anybody. And then, like Vince said, wait a second, we got to go direct ourselves on FightPass, and now uses social

and has become a huge personality in and of itself with health and et cetera, on FightPass and now uses social and has become a huge personality in and of itself with health and et cetera, but leverages that back. And in the space, there's no better promoter in the world. And he realized, I mean, it was like Friday Night Fights. And when that like good, better, and different, I understand why it happened at the beginning, he realizes there was a space for this thing.

The consistency, the product, the spectacle. I mean... When we were growing up, boxing was a big deal. It feels like UFC has completely usurped boxing. Yes, I agree. And that's Dana. It's a whole different thing. Yeah.

And he understands that mechanism and what the best fights are and what you and I wanna watch. Yeah, it's also interesting in the early days of MMA, it was Horace Gracie, if you remember, the very first champion. And that was interesting, but it felt like it would be boring a lot

because there'd be 20 minutes, two guys would be laying on top of each other, nobody would be moving, and then all of a sudden one guy would top out. The guy who was in control often would top out. It was like, what just happened? It was hard to understand. But people then over time, one, got into the sport.

They started training themselves, right? And now when you see it, I don't know how many of you have come to, people understand everything going on when it's a really high level grappling situation in Jiu Jitsu is incredible. And I think the audience understands it too now. It's 31 years, people get it. I think also Joe Rogan's ability to explain it to the audience, which he does as the commentator,

that's a big part of it too. It's like, would boxing be the same without Howard Cosell? I'm not sure. Do you know what I mean? I'm not sure. And Vince was the announcer. Oh my gosh. He wasn't just writing the story or hiring the people.

He was the narrator of the show. Remember when his father owned it? Yeah. He was the narrator. Yes, already. Already. Already the narrator. So he was always the person telling us the story way way back. Yeah, before he had bought it. Yes

Yeah, tell me about getting run over It's 93 92 I have a breakfast at Kate man Alini's which is like I think I think, Doheny in Los Angeles. At that time, ICM was down the street a little bit. I'm walking because I'm in ICM, I'm walking to Kate Mandolini's. Going across the street, I say, wow, man, you get hit by a car. I say that to myself.

Really? Yeah. Go to the breakfast. It's a Friday. Walking back on the other side of the street, guys coming out of the street, flatbed, small, like a Ford flatbed truck, bang. I go flying.

Wow. How old were you at this time? 34, something like that. And you're working as an agent at this time, but back to work at ICM. I had been at CAA, and this little company called Intertalent. ICM buys the writing, motion picture

and television writing division. I go over there with Bill Block and et cetera, get hit by the car, fly through, and I remember the following. You know, kind of like when you're, like up there I was like, wow. Down in my body I'm screaming, right? And all I said to myself, I can't describe more than that, I said, just wiggle your toes

and wiggle your fingers, just to make sure I'm not crippled. That's what I said. I did. The guy comes over, gets out of the truck, is right there. And I said, if you don't get away from me, I'm going to grab you and I'm going to do whatever I can to kill you. I go to the hospital, x-rays, my knee was gone, hips were all fucked up, ribs broken, cracked open my head.

So I had to do about six, eight months of rehab because my leg wouldn't bend at my knee. It was like, you know. So I did the rehab, had the surgery, so that was about a year to a year and a half. And at that point in time, I realized the phrase, life's not a dress rehearsal. You never know, it's like.

Anytime, anything can happen. And so, that's when I started saying like, I didn't wanna be at ICM at the time. For whatever reason, bad, good, I just, they weren't want to be at ICM at the time, for whatever reason. Bad, good, I just, they weren't good managers, in my opinion, the people running it. And I just wanted to be by myself. I want to start my own thing. And that's when David Greenblatt, Tom Strickler,

Rick Rosen, and I started building the concept of going off on our own. That was one of the reasons. Was CAA, OVETS and CAA an inspiration? They were still there. Mike and Ronnie and Bill Haber were still there. At CAA? At CAA.

What was the story of them starting their own thing part of the inspiration? I just didn't want to work for anybody anymore. Yeah. Right? And I realized, the other concept I realized, I read this book by George Gilder that said life after television.

I said, you know, I got one of the best television lists out there. There's gonna be more distribution than ever. I'm gonna get more TV packages. I'm gonna make a lot more money than whatever they were offering me. My father almost lost his mind. He was like, what, they're offering you a million dollars

and this, that, and then they're on your packages. I was like, I'm not doing that. I think I got a shot here. And was it that you could make more money or that you wanted to be your own boss? Both. Okay. Yeah, at the time it was like, oh, I'll make more money. And I think I got a shot here. And was it that you could make more money or that you wanted to be your own boss? Both. Okay. Yeah, at the time it was like,

I wanna make more money. Yeah, yeah. And I think I can do it. And I wanna be my own boss. Like, I'm not doing this anymore. Like I'm watching guys. And I had experience in her talent. And then I looked around and I said,

you know, there's not a lot of independence television businesses. Tell me your experience at each of the jobs leading up to the crash. Just so I understand, what was the first real job? So my first job was working for this guy by the name of Robbie Lance at the Lance office in New York City.

I didn't know you ever lived in New York City. Yeah. How long did you live there? I moved back from Europe where I was just screwing around, moved to New York, applied to business school at Northwestern, got into the night school, but went to New York and worked for this guy Robbie Lance.

And so he had the Tennessee Williams, Lillian Hellman, Dashiell Hammond Estates. Amazing. He had Milo Shorman, Peter Schaffer. I used to make copies of Amadeus with their notes. Wow. Incredible. And it was the single page and I used to send telexes.

And I used to say to them all the time, you're the greatest writer, take all your writers that you represent, you're the greatest writer. Because I used to dictate, he used to, and he was Austrian. Yeah, comma, exclamation. These love letters to people, incredible.

Would they have criticism as well or only love letters. I don't remember any criticism Okay, right. He was 85 and he said listen, I'm not growing this business and he had Betty Davis. He had Taylor Wow He was from the old generation studio system Hollywood him and Sam Cohn He was the head at ICM. And him would on Friday at lunch, I'd have to make it at the, I don't know if you remember, the tea room was the place.

They would have lunch every Friday. The Russian Tea Room. Russian Tea Room. And I would make the reservation. And Sam was, I mean he was a legend in New York. He had every theater person. He was a great agent.

And Robbie Lantz. And so he taught me, and he said to me, he goes, legend in New York. He had every theater person. He was a great agent. And Robbie Lantz. And so he taught me, and he said to me, he goes, listen, the reason people call me back is because of the clients I represent. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream

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Well you know there just wasn't as much as there's going on right now and when you look at Mike Nichols, Peter Schaffer, Milo Shforman, Tennessee Williams, I mean it's like... The greatest of all time, Evergreen. Yeah, and they keep on going. As important today as they were then. Yes. And so he had incredible taste. He read like crazy, saw everything, because you could. I remember a period of time when I could see

every pilot that was made and every pilot that was put on. I don't remember the date, but there was a moment in time, and I learned every pilot that was made and every pilot that was put up I Don't remember the date. Yeah, but there was a moment in time and I learned that from Bill Haber and Ron Meyer I remember there was a period of time where all of a sudden I Couldn't get through it all I couldn't get to the 150 pilots. Yeah, I wanted to see what was made, what wasn't made, who started them, who was great.

What do you think changed that allowed that to happen? Well then it went to six networks. Then HBO just started growing. And so to keep. So based on the distribution, there were more channels of distribution, so more shows were made. Right.

It was just. Yeah, it's just numbers Yeah But that was for me on the business side not on the creative. It's a good thing. It's fantastic That's how I like in the first two years We start King of the hill Marty Mike Ronnie leave the business and Bill Haber the guys that are in power now Take over They're actually in power now longer than Mike Owens

or Ron Meyer are in power. There's a generational shift. We signed a bunch of people. Then Marty brought over David Kelley and the Turners and a bunch of people. We put on the 70s show, all of David Kelley's shows. I realize Robbie Lance is trying to make a five picture deal

for Al Pacino at Canon Pictures. Do you remember the old Canon Pictures? Of course. And he's also trying to sign a movie star that CA has. So he has Al Pacino, and he's trying to sign some actress. He's writing her love letters, and I think he's gonna get her.

And the call comes in, and I think Arthur Klein was Al Pacino's lawyer at the time. And Tom Rothman worked for Arthur Klein, and we were in the room when they were kind of trying to make the deal. The call comes in from Mike Ovitz, and I kind of knew about him, really didn't know about him. And I'm listening, because you can't as an assistant and Mike says

To you no longer represent Al Pacino. We do Send over all the files and it's the first time in my life because I had been in only in the business six months. I Hear a teeny quiver because he blindsided by Mike O'Briens Robbie Lance was a god to me. Yeah, I go I because he blindsided by Michael. Robbie Lance was a god to me. I go, I gotta go over there.

I gotta figure out what that guy's doing. So I come out for an interview. I do leading artists with Jim Berkus. And then I do a meeting. Jim's still around too. Yes, Jim's great. And he and I are friends. And then I do an interview still around too. Yes, Jim's great and He and I are friends and then we I do an interview with Ray Kurtzman who was the head of business affairs for Michael It's at the time and he ran HR and how big is CA at that time?

They were in Century City on one floor But you know a big floor on Century Park East and how long had she existed at that time ten years less Might have been 15 years. Okay. Yeah, he says to me Ray says to me, which you can't say now. He goes you're too old I said what? So I just do what I do. I just kept on calling him every day And he says to me if you can be out on a Thursday or Friday if you can be out here on Monday This is after three weeks of pounding him and I had gotten back into the business school at night school Thursday or Friday, if you can be out here on Monday,

this is after three weeks of pounding him. And I had gotten back into business school, at night school, you can start in the middle. Pack up, fly out, my dad freaked out, said, why don't you go to business school, get your piece of paper and his heavy Israeli accent. No, dad, I think I can, he goes, how much you gonna make? I said, I'm gonna make 15 cents a mile. Yeah 15 cents a mile I took

$1,600 went to the valley bought a lecar Read one with pullback, right? Used yeah, he's I'll pay for the car. I'll pay for your insurance for eight months six months whatever your dad my dad was incredible and Started you know had the Thomas guide. We're ready old Thomas guys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, of course had to figure out There's no internet. No, there are no cell phones you get you get taken around for a week Todd it, you know kind of drive on a run because they had sections of the town the Valley Malibu Hollywood where you're gonna deliver packages you have to pick up them do all that stuff

You got to stay at night cut until all the scripts are copied. So that's part of the mailroom job is making deliveries That was oh my god. Yeah, it was you were you didn't text you didn't text. I said we're more like a runner No, that's where you were. Okay, I didn't understand. I was sort of the mailroom is more like a clerical job No, no, no, you're a runner I see picking up lunches in the morning You'd come in early and you'd get orange juice and bagels and cream cheese and you'd make sure Offices were clean. Oh, it's his office was the way he wanted it with the juice in the yeah That's what you did and then at times as you moved up theroom, off the runs, which is what you wanted, you then got to sit on desks as somebody turned in sick,

get out of the mailroom, but then you have to come in and copy everything until it was done. And then you'd work like an assistant. Essentially, you'd be the assistant. Then you would become an assistant in the department. But you started as an interim assistant if the assistant wasn't there. Correct.

So you got to learn essentially on the job. Would anyone tell you anything? Or you'd just like sit there and do it? No, you'd just figure, make calls. And they'd scream out, get me X. And you'd go through the Rolodex and you'd try and find X. And if you didn't know how to spell it, okay, they're gonna fire me.

I realized I wanted to be in television. I worked for this guy, David Tenzer, and then I worked for Bruce guy, David Tenzer, and then I worked for Bruce Vinneker. I would be in it. How'd you pick television? I just like television. I used to wake up early,

because I'm ADHD, and I used to watch television. I loved television. I just loved it. Growing up, what we are watching, listening habits, everything. So I would get up at five. Every day? Yeah.

I don't know, I would be watching whatever was on in the morning, mainly on the weekends. And then at night when I came home, it was The Monkees, it was I Dream a Genie, it was- Like swinging 60s, laughing. It was Gilligan's Island. Great, I love all those shows. Same, Munsters.

Munsters. I'm trying to figure out there was a- Flintstones? I was a big fan of Flintstones. There was a space show on Sundays before wrestling. I don't remember what it was. I used to love that show. And it was so badly done. Yeah, yeah.

It was so good. Like science fiction? Yeah, science fiction. So, so good. And then I have to go to Sunday school. And so, yeah, then I became an agent for those guys and Bill Haber was there every Friday come and play his violin It was really that's cool. Oh, it's great. He was a great. He was like he was incredible You have to admit there are a lot of interesting characters in the entertainment business a lot more before yeah than now

Yeah, right. Yeah a lot more Yeah, just interesting like people like crazy oddball Interesting credible and then you know saw the mic over its rise to power Who was the first client you signed? So the first client I signed was I think it was Amy Littman or John Vede or Greg Daniels it was in that group I think it might have been a bit of a minute that did party of five and she had a writing partner Chris guys Or it was Greg Daniels had a writing partner so in television you're still working mainly with writers or no

Oh, no, no, no only with writers only with writers. Yeah, and I and that you. And here's how you would do it. You would go to, like Trace Yeoman was being filmed, and The Simpsons came out of it. So you would go to the set on Friday night at Fox. Jim Brooks would be down there doing the Trace Yeoman show. And then there would be all these writers writing these little skits for, right? And I wanted to sign them.

And I was told I couldn't sign them By Lee Gaylor. I had a service list and I service the list but I wanted to sign some writers Yeah, going back to what Robbie Lance told me. Yeah, and so I did those writers in Jim Brooks's room have agents or no thinking Right, and then I realized a lot of these people were coming from the Harvard Lampoon And then they would go to SNL and then they would Go, so I I started I went to the Harvard Lampoon Harvard Lampoon Yeah, and get early thousands of places to find right? Yeah, right So I went to the Harvard Lampoon and then SNL and then they would transition

So, you know that was that and then I realized about two and a half years in Bill Block That was that. And then I realized about two and a half years in, Bill Block, Judy Huffman, David Greenblatt, I don't know if Mark Rosen was part of that group at the beginning, he came in afterwards. They started InterTalent, they broke off and started InterTalent from ICM and from CA. And that was just a little indie group?

That was that group. Then Tom Stricker, who was a friend, went over. And then I realized they had just moved from Century City into that, remember that place they had on Wilshire and Little Santa Monica? Yeah. Right, that was the big.

Yeah, the I.M.P. building. I remember walking over to that building. Beautiful building. It was incredible. Yeah. And they did a whole ceremony. It was crazy. I was like, first we started at Jimmy's.

Do you remember old Jimmy's in Century City? We'd walk over and there was this whole ceremony. I was like, okay. And people were like totally into it. I was like, we've entered the cult. I'm not, I'm not a cult. I said, I gotta get the fuck out of here. Wow. That's interesting. I was like, what are we doing here? Like we're blessing the ground and I got Mike's whole thing Mark Mike schtick is incredible. Yeah, right and in the most positive way. Yeah. Yeah. No, he believes what he's doing Oh, no, he that's why it worked for ya. I mean he was he was committed. Yes People were committed with him. Yes, they had the license plates. Yeah, yeah BV. Oh, yeah. I didn't know that Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then Bill block and

David Greenblatt who I knew from CA and Thomas Strickler recruited me and I said yeah the left and Started their kind of lit department and intertalent. Mm-hmm three months in four months in maybe I don't know right around there writer strike happens I'm like I don't know, it's right around there. Rider strike happens. I'm like, there's a small little agency. They were on the top of Sunset, in that building where Soho House is.

9,000 I think. Something like that. And I called my dad, I said, I'm definitely getting fired. He goes, what'd you do wrong? I said, no, no, I didn't do anything wrong. There's a strike. They're gonna have to save some costs. I'm the new guy.

I'm dead. They didn't fire anything wrong, there's a strike. They're gonna have to save some costs. I'm the new guy. I'm dead. They didn't fire me. Nine months, didn't fire me. And then staffing season happened. I went buck wild on staffing season. It was fast staff, everybody. And then they moved to Rodeo Drive in the old Drexel building offices.

They had started to grow. Then they sold. The talent department with Patrick and David Schiff and Judy Huffman went to UTA. Bauer, Benedict and leading artists merged and called UTA. They went there, that's how the company got brought up. And the lit department with Bill Block went to ICM. Why would it get split?

I don't remember. I was a pimple on the ass of an ant at the time, right? And so we were there Why did they decide to sell you know, I think I think Bill Block realized Looking back at it kind of remembering the whispers. Yeah, the chemistry wasn't right. I see right no disrespected Judy Judy wanted a certain talent a client that wasn't commercial Not a bad way great actors Yeah, and there was just there wasn't the confrontation that needs to happen when you're in it when you're in a partnership like no

No, there were different visions commerce also unresolved different right visions. So that happened What was that car accident happens Ari Lee starts his firm? Yeah. Tell me the story of Endeavor. So, Tom Strickler, David Greenblatt, Rick and I, car accident, we're talking, like, we can't do this. We can't do it. I'm like, we can't work for them anymore. Greenblatt was always a rebel. These guys got unbelievable guts. And so we convinced Rick Rosen, we made a fake budget

of how much we were going to make that year, a complete fraud, like here's what this one's gonna go. Rick still had people in school, he had to pay for school. And we didn't take salaries for two years, right? Is there any budget that's not a fake budget? No, they're all, it's all gas. It's made up. It's all, for sure, at the beginning of a company, you think here's what this one's gonna do.

It's always so odd to me that people write make something up and everyone acts like it happened Tom Strickland, I made one up. Yeah and with Joel Mandel our business manager at the time and We got a loan from Russell Goldsmith Joel secured that for Unsecured because we didn't have any. Yeah, there was nothing to secure it. For a million dollars to start doing stuff.

We were at the. What would you spend money on? Well, you had to get copy machines. Yeah. You had to pay in. Infrastructure. Infrastructure, right. Office.

You had to get the phones. Yeah. All the. Yes, yes, yes. Right, we then bought furniture from flea markets. Of course. And then we just started. And I think. And did you have, did you bring And then we just started. And I think Bob's-

And did you bring clients with you or had nobody? Yeah, we brought clients. Yeah, Eric Gilland, Amy Lipman, Greg Daniels. We signed, I think our first client, before Marty came over, our first client was Bob Singer, big hot writer at the time, one of the great guys. We got lucky, we got King in the Hill on the air, which was a packet great show, right? The best great show and people were great to us like the old Brandon Tartakov talking about characters one of the great guys

We start the company He takes this to us. We're going to breakfast right away I'll meet me at the at the time remember the breakfast area Four Seasons was the place to be, boom. And there was bad people too. But there was people that stretched and said, we believe, I mean the guys at ICM, that they took the press that we left and blew it up. We were four schmucks.

And that they made us this huge thing that we, and it was, I mean I have the clinics all over the place that we were nothing, nothing. They sued us for nine months. Breach, we settled. We got 90 cents on the dollar, made our career. It has been cherished in tribal wisdom traditions for thousands of years.

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by visiting lucy.co.ukra and discover next level smoke free nicotine Warning this product contains nicotine nicotine is an addictive chemical Was there any mission statement or organizing principle beyond We don't want to have a boss. Yeah, that was that. That was it. And distribution is going to expand. We're going to get due. We're going to there's going to be more product needed. You saw the opportunity. Yeah. That was it. Not that that wasn't a big deal, but no, no, no. Yeah. I mean, we have a new one now, but yeah. Yeah.

And then tell me about the history of the William Morris company. What is William Mars in the entertainment business? Tell me about the history of the William Morris company. What is William Morris in the entertainment business? Well, it's over 120 years old, you know, like MCA was the company. When we took it over, they still, when we, their original offices, they gave gas to employees, they had drivers. I mean, it was insane, right? They started the packaging business. It was the founding agency,

not that there weren't, in the business, and it lasted over 120 years. And it just kept on going. I don't remember all the leaders of the place No, right like you remember. I mean if you're a student of the game, you remember Lou. Yeah, and Jule Stein Yeah, but when we looked at it Yeah going back to when we kind of we were going through this we did something at Harvard kind of analyzing the business How do we can make it a two-horse race at the time?

It was CA was Mike and Ronnie and Bill left that brand which was the best brand and gave it to these guys. I mean, again, you realize just in life what they created, it just keeps on going. They get the dine out. Mike went to Disney. Is that why you left? At that time, Mike, Ronnie left first. He went to Universal.

Right. And he ran went to Universal. Right. Right. And he ran Universal ever since, until recently. Ever since. Right. And then Mike then had to leave because Ronnie left before, like that was a whole thing. And then Mike went, when Michael Eisner had the heart attack, I think. Yeah.

He went there. And then Bill just left. He did the theater business and et cetera. And between, I think it was Jack Rapke and Rick Nesita and the guys that are now running it ran that business. I think Doc O'Connor was in that group. They've run it for 26, 27 years. And that place has been around for 60, very hard to put an agency out of business.

William Morris was the grand. Daddy. Of the whole thing. Yeah. You'll hear interviews with actors in the 1930s talking about, you know, call William Morris. And in the 1950s. It was the brand.

It was the brand. It was almost shorthand for agent. You know, like. Yeah, and I agent, you know like and I think you know I think they went we got lucky cuz it had taken a downturn. Yeah, right They had a great agents in there. They had a book business. That was great. They had a music business So we're in a non scripted business. They had a great motion picture and television. It just wasn't managed Did it get too big for what it was? Sometimes old businesses.

I don't wanna talk ill of people that ran at the time that we came in and merged with it. These things, you have to manage them, right? You have to make sure everybody's working together. You have to, you can't be afraid to fire somebody. God forbid you have to. And you have to manage the process. And if you're not willing to manage the process,

and you don't have big enough clients, like, oh, you can't threaten me, I can step into that situation, like, no problem. That was one of the problems I faced with IMG, which is different. I can handle a little nonscripted. 99% of the jobs I can do have done. So you're not gonna threaten me like,

okay, lock yourself out, except for the first year that we merged. That's a different conversation goes Oh wait, the world was changing tell me about the idea of the merger and How did it end up being Endeavor because you would think in any version? Anyone who knows anything about history, right would say it should be William Morris It is William Morrison Beaver, okay, okay the the parent company is wme. Yeah So I won't tell you how why we got there. So we Patrick and myself I don't remember who else was there. We went to Harvard Business School

We met with the then you didn't go to Harvard Business School, you went. To meet with a professor. Yes. At the time, that professor became the head of Harvard Business School. At the time, Professor Nitton was not. And he gave us the courtesy of walking us through the business plan. And we laid out for two days on a whiteboard.

The business, CA's the dominant player, it was ICM, William Morris, UTA, and us. And we laid out a plan, we have to go after William Morris. And here's why, they have a music business, they have a theater business, they have a commercial business, they have a book business, they strengthen our movie business, and they strengthen our television business.

And then it would be a two-horse race. Was there a second option or no? Well the second option was ICM, and then ICM sold to this guy by name is sue hell Rizvi and made the worst deal in the world They gave him his packages and they could have banked the packages and gotten the money stupid and UTA was much of the same Not in a bad way They just had assets that we had and we weren't if you believe that distribution is a commodity we didn't have other Areas where distribution was gonna fit wasn't this good, right? So it took us five seven years of

taking clients taking agents Attacking Wow William Mars William or Wow and it fits and starts of happening There was some really bad meetings that Patrick and I walked out and Patrick looks me Well, that's never gonna happen. I said, yes it is and I was the obnoxious one. Of course, really? Yeah I find that hard to leave and so um, and then we we kind of like wore them down Took a bunch out it was not at the top of the place they weren't getting along and We got to the people that wanted to do it and then everybody got to the table. It took a year and

Then at the end as our friends at Harvard Tommy, there's no merger. There's somebody wins and somebody loses Wow And so here's the battles Fight for the name give up the name but win business affairs communications CFO, da da da da da. And so we just followed that game path and we did it. Amazing.

And so we took people off the board that didn't deserve to be able to put people on that then were loyal to us, not to them from their side. And it's because they were dysfunctional, not because we were geniuses. No, completely understood. And so then. And also was new blood.

Like sometimes a younger upstart brings a different energy to an old organization that ends up being good for everybody. And they wanted it. But the craziness, it was 08, I mean, people don't remember the world. We were all going over the edge in 08, like the world was coming to an end financially. People had bought 19 houses. And so they made $20 million less than they thought. We had to give $20 million of bonuses

to keep everybody in line, because they were guaranteed, as I remember. I might be wrong, but I think so. And we lost, William Morris had a lawsuit on a building that we lost for 35 million. So we were at $ to 100 million dollars. In 08 we had to beg for a loan to keep, to Russell Goldsmith, to keep the dream alive. Why was making it a two-horse race important?

ICM was, because they had sold their assets, nothing, I mean, they were nothing. So it was UTA small fresh compared And then it would just be us in CA and then when you're talking about signing clients We had all the divisions they had all we had to do is now organize them make sure they work together realizing the business was turning to television with everything coming and We thought we could compete at that level because we had a better motion picture writer-director business then, actor business, TV business. You wanted to tussle?

We'll tussle. Right? Before we were a small agency. We tussled. We were a small agency. Now we have every division, actually more divisions than they have in the theater department and the book department, really big, our commercial department, bigger. Like, okay, you wanna play?

Let's play. And, you know, yeah. And how long did it take to sort out? Until about 2011, 2010. Four years, five years. Two years to organize it. Yeah. Let people go, keep people there.

And then two years to kind of get it really going and then in 12 Teddy Forsman passes away from IMG who was a friend of ours and We had started this company Called rain, which is a merchant bank with Joe ravage and Jeff sign. We were raising money I called he was on the cover of Forbes. I called Mark Andreessen,

who had just started his VC fund. I said, I wanna meet you. You didn't know him? Didn't know him. Cold called him. Cold called him. After reading the article, I said, I'll fly up. He says, no, I'll fly down.

He flew down. He told me what he was trying to start and why Ovis was advising him at the time. And he had a vision of that. We talked about my business and I said, listen, I got this merchant bank. I want you to put in some money. So he put in money, him, Egon Durbin from Silver Lake, they're friends, and Nikesh, who was at Google at the time.

They have a separate little thing. And did you call him because you saw the- The similarities. And the synergy in- because you saw the- I, similarities. And the synergy in- Well, I read articles now and I call people if I find them or it interesting. But is money money? Do you take money from anyone or-

No, I just thought he was interesting. I just thought he was, he saw an industry, he went against trend, and he was trying to build something against trend that it's an establishment I guess I want to know that dude. Yeah. Yeah. I then met Egon Durbin from silver like at that point and he and I Started talking he had bought Skype He and I would have lunches every once in a while and he buys Skype and he calls me up and he says hey I think there should be some content animation on Skype. I keep he what I see. At least that's what I thought.

Didn't happen, I wanted to put, we hadn't raised the money yet, enough money, I wanted to put Rain into Skype. And he was the younger guy at Silverlake at the time. He then sells Skype, his first big deal to Microsoft. Thinking about it, Skype could have been WhatsApp. Like in two seconds, that was a, you know, thinking back, Microsoft could have made it WhatsApp What's that? Yeah, right blew it

Yeah, and then He calls me when Teddy Forsman dies and says can I come now see you? And I'm trying to raise money in my head. I'm flying all over I went to Brazil to I see Ike Batista Martin Sorrell at WPP at the time I'm trying to put the money together because I want to go after that because I want to have sports now in the business. Would that have been the first big acquisition? Yeah.

Okay. Because that was a, the William Morris thing only cost me to get, let people go $40 million. It was nothing. That would have been at the time. A big deal. Yeah, a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. And so I was raising- Tell me about that business, before you got involved.

Tell me about the IMG business. Well, IMG had events. Yep. They represented about 150 sports, from snooker to darts to tennis. Who was their competition? Nobody. They were just the sports- It was Ocagon a little bit, Nobody. They were just the sports.

It was a little bit, but. They were the big sports player. They were. That business had been around for 60 years when he'd passed away. Did you always think sports would be a good piece? Yeah, because it was. Since when? I thought about this for a long time, this concept that got built.

A long time starting when? You know, when I started in 93, 94, when I looked at maybe a little earlier, that here's where the world is, I thought about how you're gonna discover stuff, you gotta have marketing in there. I didn't realize what social was gonna do, but social is that marketing arm.

30 years, 35 years, yeah. So I'm out raising money and Egan calls me up and he says, listen, I wanna come down and see you. I got an idea. So we go have lunch at the grill. And he says, I wanna invest in you and I wanna go after IMG. I said, listen, dude, I've been talking to a lot of P firms.

You're a P firm. You're never doing this. You can't get around around an agency and money. He goes, show me your numbers. I come back down at three weeks. Showed him the numbers, came back down at three weeks. I could have signed the original agreement, but I went over with our friends at Harvard, our lawyer.

We negotiated, made a deal like three weeks later. It's been the greatest relationship ever. He's backed every play. Amazing. Yeah, and he's not one of, the promise we made him was most people come to Hollywood and on their private planes they leave on American Airlines. We promised him we were never gonna lose him money have not yeah

and it's just been Incredible, you know and then we were in the bidding for IMG. I moved to Europe for Four or five months in the summer Every three weeks come back for a weekend with the kids in the summer Met everybody it was the representation business the production business the summer, met everybody. It was the representation business, the production business, the events that they did, and just started building the business.

And then that then started fitting in and they had a licensing business, they had a lot of pieces. And at the time when you saw the studios, probably music too, television companies were abdicating a lot of their responsibility, and we then started building things that we could do internally when you had a book division. And then we realized we do all these things for people and we see businesses that if we owned we would do this and that and this.

So we should, half the business should be things we represent. But if we owned it, here's where we could take it. So then half the business was that, and then we went after things we could own. When did that start, the idea of ownership? That's a big change. Yeah, that was Brent Richards, I remember, he presented at Wimbledon 2014, I think it was.

That was recently, I mean 10 years. Yeah,acyar, The New York Times It was recently. I mean, 10 years. Yeah. And so the first one we went after to own, we owned some events and then we bought some events and then the big one we bought, we made a leap. We bought Droga 5, the advertising agency, but then the biggest thing we really bought, we bought bull riding. We turned that thing around and it's going great now. How popular is it? I don't know anything about it.

No, no, it's popular. That's right. And we created... Is it popular just here or is it popular in other places? Brazil, Latin America, China, Australia, there's pockets. And is it local or? All over. It goes from Manosakur Garden, comes out here,

goes to the south, Canada. But the same guys who are popular are popular in all those places. Yeah, actually the biggest players in bull riding, not that the riders are not popular, they are the bulls. Really? Oh yeah. Because they're like the wildest bull,

riding the wildest bull. They're the stars. Yeah, because they're like the wildest bull, riding the wildest bull. They're the stars. Yeah, that's interesting. Turn that around and then kind of, you know, cut our teeth on that about owning something and how you sponsorship teams and all that crap and built a sponsorship group, which took a lot of time.

While managing these people that, like I said before, I could step into a book business or not scripted not be perfect in all of them But I could handle them. Yeah, I don't know anybody in Italian soccer or fret I don't know any I mean they had me over a barrel. Yeah until I kind of learned that business. Yeah L-M-N-T. Element Electrolytes. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best? Add Element Electrolytes to your daily routine.

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sodium, potassium, and magnesium to keep you hydrated and energized throughout the day. These minerals help conduct the electricity that powers your nervous system so you can perform at your very best. Element electrolytes are sugar-free, keto-friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drink lmnt.com slash tetra and stay salty with Element Electrolyte. LMNT. Is there an advantage in the synergy like when you get sports? Well then you realize you're going into ESPN and Disney

Yeah, you're selling them X-TV show X movie. Oh and you want English Premier League or you want XYZ That was the advantage you have a lot of kind of fingers in right and then when you own something You see what they're spending on across it and then you're like so then we did that and then ufc came up And you know I had represented them for a long time. What's good about it is by representing them you get to really learn the business

I learned a business. Yeah, I saw the business and realized the business and they had created an incredible thing and dana was like growing and it was great and so The guys wanted to sell. Renzo and Frank, Fatida. I talked to Silver Lake and I said, we have to own a sport. Multiples in sports are gonna go up. Back then, nobody thought like, what?

And so- What made you think it was gonna go up? Again, when you looked at the ratings in television Sports was it all sports were up there above So you knew and then s fads were coming meaning the Netflix of the world that was growing So it was inevitable and you had the rumors of other people getting into the space more distribution price elevation, okay? I had a long history with Dana.

At the time, it was a crazy multiple, crazy. It was like 22 dimes. But we had a thesis that Fox couldn't give it up because they had all, for their station group, they had all of our library. They needed because of the broadcasting and the ratings he was getting and cut to Fox raise their hand, we're selling. They can't bid, ESPN can't bid.

AT&T wanted also for TNT, like John Stenghe wanted bad. And Trump stopped that Transaction from happening. So that was off the table NBC didn't want it and Paramount didn't want it Even though we started a paramount. Yes, he started on spike So we were shit out of luck for like nine ten months. Wow. I mean it was bad. Yeah and And you had had you already paid 22 times? Oh, we paid 4.2 billion.

Yeah. So I put all the chips in the table, right? And clients were in it. And we had nothing. And we were like, I think it was like three or four months left on our deal with Fox. And we had nothing. Yeah. Then the ice broke with ESPN.

They wanted to go direct to consumer. And Dana says this all the time. then the ice broke with the ESPN they wanted to go direct to consumer and Dana says this all the time the guy running ESPN was just shining me out all these years about making the deal with you I see he never wanted it thought it was like a bad sport. Yeah, but it's that yeah He gets kicked out for drug related issues and other things. Mm-hmm. Iger Saw it because he came out of boxing He realized yeah Like right away Bob realized it and Kevin Mayer realized it for direct-to-consumer our guys buy pay-per-views Yeah, it's gonna be good for us. We make the deal and it's a funny thing. That's a long story, but we were in

Paramount trying to convince them to make spike back to the sports channel. And I get a text or a WhatsApp from Kevin Mayer, and I think, yeah, Kevin Mayer, we have a deal. And this is after many backs of fights. I slide my phone over to Shapiro, and I end the meeting. I said, we gotta get out of here, Mark, we got a meeting. We get in the car, Jimmy Vitara, who's unbelievable, Bob Iger, and Kevin Mayer are in the plane, flying to New York, and we're making a deal over WhatsApp.

Amazing. And Bob, to his credit, Dana Need wanted, instead of eight episodes, 10 episodes of Fight Night on ESPN, because that's how you make stars. Still broadcasting is important. were on us eight and God bless Bob Iger. He goes give him the two great. We got a deal and Then our first night fight was in Brooklyn

Blew the doors off and they were unbelievable partners in promotion credible Yeah, and then they bought the fight then they bought the pay-per-views. And so there was... Hypothetical question. Yeah. Now, going forward, is there a time when it makes sense for UFC to have their own network instead of being on ESPN? No, I would say I've thought about this, like, is there going to be a period of time when direct consumer, you know They are the most incredible because you still even though we all poo poo linear. Yeah NFL's on linear. Yeah, the NBA deal is gonna be linear. Yeah a portion directing consumer. Yep hockey's gonna be linear

How did the last deal work with peacock? Was that good for peacock no great there was the WWE network no they have that I call those the PL okay okay they have that premier live events yeah I think it's at like four or five million subs to peacock that's a huge number you know run the math on it yeah and it performs yeah so Yeah, so we're gonna see like we have we moved from Fox to NBC NBC SmackDown was that Fox right we took that and we moved that to NBC We can be see broadcast NBC. No what I want to say NBC USA Network USA Network, right? And there's shows specials that will happen on the network on NBC

I see in that deal which are incredible. I see right breaking stars. Yeah, we took the CW NXT That we were getting nothing for yeah sold that for a great number Yeah, and then next he has grown into a serious third brand We really all that you like it's amazing that is compared to what Dana created when he created the Contender series. And then we had Raw, everybody killed us because we didn't make a deal for Raw, and we had Raw, the stock market.

And Mark and I had an idea, and Nick Khan, at a breakfast I started with Bella, this concept. Before I made the NXT deal, I thought I could get her into NXT. And then once she realized, this is where she was incredible, she realizes, wait a second, this audience moves, wherever it goes, it moves.

This audience moves. Like you go to Spike, everybody moves. You go back, everybody moves. Right, you go to Fox, everybody moves. Dedicated fan base. This is incredible. And. Yeah every year. Yeah, and So she realized a second the overlap we could gain a ton of subs here and it's a lot of programming and it's global a

global fan base and so she got it like Once we showed her the numbers Number one for 24 years in a row that she saw so she got it Ted got it. Once we showed her the numbers, number one for 24 years in a row, she saw it. So she got it. Ted got it right away and made the deal for Raw. So Raw will start on Netflix in January? Yeah.

It's a big deal. Huge. It's a big deal. And so nobody saw that coming. And now we have the PLEs, which everybody wants because of how many subs it has. And so we feel good. It's incredible. And you know, it's all going.

What was the thinking in putting UFC and WWE together and spinning it off as TKO? Well, you know, I was getting frustrated. We weren't getting any value. I said, if we could have a pure play, we should trade it more, move that over. We're bigger than them financially, so we would get majority.

We can consolidate it back in and make it pure play. When does it make sense for a business to be public? And when does it make sense for a business to be private? You know, here's what I have learned, and it took me three years to learn this. I don't think, this is not a fault of anybody. When it's a clean conversation, and the story's simple, I think people get it.

Back maybe 70s, 80s, conglomerates, people got, and that was the story they believed in, and the GEs of the world, and all those guys, they believed in and they the GE's of the world and all those guys they believed that And they could sell that story a Simple story. I think people get at least that's what I understand And yeah, I mean I think that's why that thing should be public and this other thing shouldn't be public Never does it change anything in the day-to-day running of the company or nothing? Same thing I've been doing the same thing. Yeah, whether it was inside or whether it was outside.

We have incredible executives across the team. Everybody plays fairly and well in the sandbox or they have to deal with me and other people. In some ways in the agent business, you're always accountable to someone already. Do you know what I'm saying? It's the nature of the business. That's one of the great things about being an agent. It actually teaches you an incredible skill set for dealing with people, all that stuff. It's incredible.

It's actually incredible. So that's been the great, you know, that over the 29 years, 30 years of doing it, that skill set, if you can deal with agents, if you can deal with actors and writers, directors, you can then deal with investors and public markets. It's just part of the process. You work with some of the greatest creators on the planet. I think so. You do.

What do creators understand that traditional business people don't? The great thing about great creators, they believe in their vision and they will do anything to follow that thing to the end. Like they'll go do anything. And great ones listen to people in their own way, not that they'd make their adjustments, to get to where they want to be,

because they have this burning desire to tell that story. Whatever it is, music, theater, they want to do with this. And that ability, because remember, when you're doing that, you've got to take a lot of punches, because there's a lot more nos than yeses. And so I think they have a lot more endurance because they have this love, passion, vision, and they have to tell their story.

And I tried to tell my kids, and I said to my agents, being a CEO is not how many punches you throw, how many you can take. And that's what creatives, right? I mean, I don't know what you feel when you're doing music with people. It's a lot of just, what did Tennessee Williams say? Writing is rewriting. You gotta really grind.

You gotta grind. And it doesn't just like... It doesn't just happen. It doesn't just happen. Sometimes it just happens, but then you have to make sure that when you're grinding after the special moment, you don't ruin it.

It's like it's a very, it's super delicate. Right? It's super delicate. They know that. And that they still get into that ring and do it is incredible. That's why I love them. As much as it's sometimes frustrating,

and I think I frustrate them. Larry David has a vision, man. Aaron Sorgin has a vision Jim Brooks has a vision I mean Greg Dan's vision Marcia says he visioned they have Michael Moore vision. Yeah, and they're just let's get into the ring. That's a hard thing to say I want to get in the ring and like Be naked in front of people this is where I'm gonna go do. And people saying no to you. And that's what it is. Yeah. When you have a crazy idea. Too many.

And you're excited about it, how hard would someone have to argue to get you out of the idea? Or is it even possible? Oh yeah, I know, I get it. Here's what I say to, and this is why my partnership with Mark Shapiro is incredible.

I have a lot of ideas, and I've learned over time like 90% suck. But there's 10 that really are good. And the one thing they know is- And does he help edit? Is that how that works? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he helps edit. He's really good at the edit.

Is there any time where he says don't do it and you say we're doing it? Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. So like I say something I know we just we gotta try this one. Is it just that the vision is clear? No, you want to know something? I'm okay with his arguments why it shouldn't work Yeah, I'm okay getting into the ring and trying to make it work because I think it's more important for the try because also I don't know if you learn this in your life

Because also I don't know if you learned this in your life Successes doesn't just go straight up. Yeah, it's a squiggly lying down and to the left It's all right. It's all and in that it's like what I said to you. I started with Joe and Jeff rain I met Mark Andreessen led me to Egon Durbin. We tried to do something It didn't work the lines of how you got to where you are. Yeah, they're all sometimes it's important to get into the ring and Not get it done, but it's gonna lead you to three other things that create unbelievable opportunity Yeah, and so sometimes I sit there and say and I just do it in my head like I'm not sure where this is going. Yeah, something's gonna come from it

Something's gonna something's gonna come from and the Something's gonna come from it. Something's gonna come from it. And the hard thing is when you're dealing on Wall Street, or with PE sometimes, and this is what's great about Egon, they let you go down that street, even though, man, I sure have pencils. That's rare for a PE firm, CEO, difficult on Wall Street. You know, they expect a certain... They want the straight line.

It doesn't work that way. Yes. It's impossible to work that way. It's impossible. What are your thoughts on cancel culture and free speech? Cancel culture and free speech. Well, I cannot stand what's happening in these schools, campuses right now. I don't understand it.

King Jeffrey said to me, in the Gaza Israeli situation, there's Goliath and David. In the greater Middle East, Israel is David, they're Goliath. I don't think they understand when you say, from the river to the sea. They don't even know what the river is. Yeah.

Actually, there's a Jordan River. The sea's over here. That means no Jew would be there. That's genocide. Yeah, I don't think they realize that that's the frustrating thing Yeah, the lack of information just how and then they won't form and I'm gonna get more likes if I say it this way like That's what your life's about. I Don't understand it. I think Bill Maher says it right He says, you know, they are hurting the Democratic Party and the Republican Party Hate woke more than they hate Russia. So they'd rather be with Russia because they hate that more

John Stewart said that one and he's right. It's so ill-informed It's shocking to me Welcome to the house of macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood, sustainably sourced directly from farmers. Macadamias, a rare source of omega seven linked to collagen regeneration, enhanced weight management, and better fat metabolism. Macadamias.

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I roasted with Namibian sea salt, cracked black pepper, and chocolate dips. Snack bars come in chocolate coconut white chocolate and blueberry white chocolate visit house of macadamia's dot-com slash Tetra Do you think there's going to be a World War III anytime soon? No. Why do you think no? I just don't, I don't go there.

Okay. Because if I go there, I'm not getting out of bed and I like getting out of bed and I like working and I like doing what I'm doing. I'm trying to make the world a better place. When did you get serious about exercise and biohacking? I always worked out. I started intermittent fasting ice baths 13, 14 years ago, 15 years ago. And then it just, it's on a steep incline of the craziness.

And I always pick up the phone, because my brother Zeke's a doctor. And I just say to him the following, here's what I wanna do, could it hurt me? And he says to me yes or no. And if it's a yes, I don't do it. If it's a no, I do it. So if you do those things right,

you get a better chance of living long. I don't want people to say, oh, you wanna live forever? No. You wanna be healthy. I don't want people to go, oh, you want to live forever? No. I want to be healthy. Of course. Right. And so, I love my life. I have a great life.

I worked really hard at my life. And so I just want to enjoy it for as long as I can and be around to see what the hell happens. Because it's as interesting the world as it's ever been. I think if you ask people 1969 What happened in 1960? There was a big concert. Remember that concert that happened? Yes, right? Yeah, you know what also happened then what you had the flu? There was a 1969

Bad flu 120,000 people died same time as Woodstock. What's that? Oh,. I didn't know. Parents sent their kids to Woodstock. Yeah, yeah. Right? And you had Nixon, you had Vietnam War, the world was coming to an end. Now, you know, we'll figure this one out too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to list a couple of biohacks you can tell me which ones you've done in. Okay.

Cryotherapy. Oh yeah. I do a nice bath every morning. Okay. Hyperbaric oxygen. Yeah, oh yes. You were at a meditation practice? I meditate every morning in my sauna for 25 minutes. Great, what style of meditation is it?

I have a, oh, I do. A mantra? A mantra. Out loud or internal, silent? Silent. And then after that, during the day I do a, there's a guy, Brian McKenzie, I do an incredible breathing. I do a, there's a guy, Brian McKenzie, I do an

incredible breathing. I do about a 15, 20 minute breathing. What time do you go to bed? 10, 10.30. Wake up about quarter to five, five. I'm going to say four qualities, and I want you to prioritize them for me. Enthusiasm, work ethic, smarts, instinct. Can I add one more?

Yeah. Endurance. Endurance is the number one thing. Number one. Yeah. Is that part of work ethic or it's different? I don't know. It falls under, maybe it's A, B, and C.

Endurance, enthusiasm, work ethic, I think are in one group. Okay. Right? Smart. Instinct and smarts. Instincts before, then smarts. I mean, hello.

Yeah. You know? Like, I remember having to go to China for lunch. I went to Abu Dhabi like to get that relationship way before anybody else 20 times. Wow. Yeah. You know, you say and that's brutal. Yeah. Do you ever feel is there anyone that you feel intimidated to talk to? No. Not a person on the planet? No. Was there ever a time? No. That you felt you felt that no not a person on the flat. No, okay Do you think pretty much anything can be worked out if people talk about it? Yes, I really do me, too

I I had this conversation with Martin Lau from Tencent who I went to China for lunch for And one of the great guys runs Tencent. And I said to him, I wish, because if it was up to us to do business, we could do business. We do business, and it's good business. I'm not really sure about the country situation. I don't really understand why that can't be figured out.

I'm not a religious person. I believe in how you have to treat people. Yeah. Like that's like religion, like about that stuff. And I just don't understand it. Do you believe in God? No. Do you pray?

No. Are you spiritual in any way? No. I mean, I wanna treat people right. Of course. But I mean, I don't know. That's a separate thing. That's a separate thing.

How are you defining spiritual? Do you feel connected to something greater than yourself? Do I feel connected to something greater than myself? Yeah, I want to believe I do That there's some you either do it you don't I don't I don't I'm not sure I'm a spirit There's no right answer. I don't think I'm a spiritual person. I'm okay. That's fine. Yeah, that's fine. At least not yet You're gonna get me there. Whatever. Have you found joy outside of work?

Yeah. How? Well, I find incredible joy in my relationship with my wife. Great. I feel incredible joy in my relationship with my kids and their growth and everything else. I love now surfing, as you know. Yeah.

Right? How did you come to surfing? My wife said, let's go to Costa Rica. I said, really? She goes, yeah. She goes, you're gonna love it and you're gonna learn how to surf. I said.

Have you ever done anything in the ocean before? No, not at all. And you grew up in Chicago's No Ocean. Yeah. But when we went to Israel every summer, we went into a lot. And so she got me out there, got wiped out tons and tons of time,

but I'm competitive. And so then I got one. I got a wave, and it was like, this is it. It was like when I first started golfing. I signed this guy, Chris Thompson, who was one of the great writers. He took me out to Lakeside. Summer, July, I'm in a suit, pick up a club.

Never golfed before. Shanking, shanking. Hit the ball right on the screws, as they say. Sold. Wow. Same thing with surfing. That's beautiful. Yeah, and I just love it

If you know anything about golf, I'm a 15 handicap, which is not a very good handicap surfer But you love surfing. I love it. How great is that? Yeah, and it's a new passion. Oh, yeah There's a surf ranch up. Yeah, okay. I cannot wait two days And you just get better. you