Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Ben Patrick

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Ben Patrick, known as the “Knees Over Toes Guy,” is the founder, president, and CEO of Athletic Truth Group (ATG) Online Coaching. Though a longtime basketball player in his youth, Patrick’s three knee surgeries by the age of 18 stopped his athletic career short. After struggling with pain medication addiction and depression, Patrick soon became devoted to physical fitness and rehabilitation, now boasting an NBA-like 42-inch vertical jump. He developed ATG Online Coaching, working to restore the quality of life in individuals struggling with knee injuries and bringing out their full physical potential. In addition to building his training system, Patrick has authored three books, Knee Ability Zero, Back Ability Zero, and ATG for Life, and he has gained a massive social media presence with over 2.5 million followers.  ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra ------ Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra ------ Lucy https://lucy.co/tetra ------ House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra

Tetragrammaton. TETRAGRAMMATON TETRAGRAMMATON TETRAGRAMMATON TETRAGRAMMATON TETRAGRAMMATON TETRAGRAMMATON For me, jumping, you grow up in

basketball, you see Michael Jordan, you want to be able to jump high, you grow up in basketball. You see Michael Jordan, you want to be able to jump high. You kind of know some genetics are going to factor in. So for me, once I started getting older, getting into high school, I was kind of the kid made fun of who couldn't jump high, couldn't touch the rim. Could you ever jump high before that? No. I was never a high jumper.

And then even by high school, I already had chronic knee pain. So it's like being made fun of for not being able to jump high. Lowest jumper on the team, but I'm trying to work on it, which is only beating up my knees more. So it took this kind of not being a natural jumper, but trying to work at it really hard. All these jumping drills,

but not knowing how to strengthen my knees so it just got worse So rather would you say you had bad information? I mean there was no data at the time at least broadly available Yeah on strengthening your knees and basketball if you look at someone jumping your knees don't bend all the way down so at basketball it's played up high and If you just do more and more and more of that, well millions of other people have gotten knee pain from that too.

And there wasn't broad information at the time of things I could do to balance that out. So, okay, going backward with the sled, you're able to start getting out of pain. You're going in reverse. So jumping, you're slamming force forward, going backward, you're now reversing that. And then figuring out how to get into deeper strengthening.

So because my knees were just getting worse, it's not like from 14 to 18, I increased my vertical, it kept going down because I just kept having more knee problems. Then you have surgery, that sets you back a ton. So yeah, I reached full adulthood thinking I would never be close to dunking this lifetime. Yeah. You were never able to dunk before.

Not even close. And then? Now it's like too easy in my 30s, it's weird. So tell me about that transition from not being able to do it, needing surgery, having, as far as the people that you played with, would you say your knees were among the worst of the people you played with?

Yeah. You know your friends in high school. You know who's kind of known for what. I was the guy made fun of for my fragile knees, my knee pain, icing my knees. It would take me longer than everyone else to warm up. Being the lowest jumper on the team, getting made fun of for my vertical,

that's like who I was. Then knee surgery only gets worse. I ended up, I just dropped out by the end of high school because I was gonna be like in a wheelchair, in a walker. I didn't wanna go around campus. I just dropped out and finished some homeschool thing. I have no idea where my high school certificate is or whatever.

And had given up on believing basketball would happen to me. How long were you not able to walk from the surgery? Well, I had a partial kneecap replacement. That was the one that really, like, because the knee wouldn't bend for a long time. It was some months. How old were you at that?

It was some months, 18. 18 years old, partial kneecap replacement. Among two other surgical changes. All at the same time or all separately? Those were done at the same time. Okay. Yeah. One surgery, three different things done. That's right.

Then told, I need more knee surgeries in my right knee. I was like rock bottom. Even though I thought I needed surgeries, but I was like, I don't know what I was thinking exactly, I just didn't want to go through with it. It's okay, I'm not even going to try to do basketball. Yeah. Now just purely scouring for stuff to do for my niece.

And up till that point, all that you wanted to do was play basketball. Yeah. Yeah. The basketball was your life. I was one of those obsessive kids with one sport, which in hindsight, Michael Jordan didn't get serious about basketball until he was maybe 16. He was playing different sports. Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, the guys widely regarded

as the best basketball players of all time, played different sports growing up. So I didn't even realize in my mind, okay, I'm trying to be like my hero, not realizing that my regimen isn't what my hero was doing. My hero, Michael Jordan, had a more balanced childhood. And I was by eight, it was like, yeah. I was already a fan by four or five,

but by eight it was like, okay, can't play any other sports. Also by eight, you don't know how tall you're gonna be. That's another thing, like, and that seems to matter a lot in basketball. Yeah, a lot of factors, that's a big one. So in my mind at eight, I'm thinking, cut out the other sports to just focus on basketball. No one's telling you at eight, I mean thinking cut out the other sports. Yeah, just focus on basketball

Yeah, no one's telling you at eight I mean that'd be kind of a awful thing to say to an eight-year-old like hey if you want to just play basketball You're probably gonna have knee surgery But I'm sure it would be an easy survey to find that people who specialize only in one sport at a young age Yes are gonna be more prone to the injuries of that sport. It makes sense. Yeah, make sense. Yep, so Because I went through all that stuff The knee stuff then was just trying to find knee solutions found that if I I would go to this gym They had this rickety sled. I would take it out to the parking lot. Have you learned about the idea of the sled?

There's a an Olympic trainer rest in peace named Charles Poliquin trained Olympic athletes, and he became obsessed with going backward with the sled like crazy when he had an Olympic athlete who had any injury, but he has to get, like the Olympics are in three months or six months or whatever. And they're told like, sorry, you're not going to compete in the Olympics. So he had some athletes. Did you read it? Read it. You read it in the book. That's interesting. So he had some athletes. Did you read it? Read it.

You read it in the book? Just on internet. Internet. Yeah. He doesn't have a lot on the knee subject. Yes. And I ended up going and studying with him in person. Amazing. So I could ask all these questions.

So he would use this backward like crazy because he found that was something he could do that you could recover from it fast and he could actually get the knees to get stronger and heal at the same time and get ready for the Olympics. He learned about it, just as I went to the source to learn from him. He went to the source of a guy named Louis Simmons who's probably the most famous powerlifting coach ever. And he was observing Finland powerlifters

with these incredible legs. And he's like, how do you get these legs? And they credited their day job dragging trees. They were in the forestry industry. So it went from powerlifters in Finland dragging trees to Louis Simmons going, hey, that can be an exercise. Like dragging stuff is an exercise. To then Charles Pollock.

So dragging before this, nobody dragged. At least as far as the history credits it. Yeah. Dragging wasn't an exercise form. Yeah. So Louis Simmons started that as an exercise form and he would do backward and forward and particularly the backward this Olympic trainer found

was just a gold mine in terms of fixing the knee when he had to help an athlete. Like you can't just stop playing your sport. It's like you're trying to win a medal. There's people right there. It's also an exercise that you can't get hurt doing. It's not dangerous. Yeah, fundamentally it is different.

My mom is 70. For demo purposes, I hooked her up to a thousand pound sled. I loaded the sled with a thousand pounds, hooked up my 70 year old mother, said, try to drag it backward. Well, the thing didn't budge. Yeah, but she didn't get hurt. She wants to try again soon.

But she wasn't hurt, because the weight's not bearing down on you. So it's just, it is fundamentally different. Yeah. As far as exercise goes, it's a safe exercise. Yeah. It would be like doing something in a pool. All right.

You have, there's certain just measurable. Yeah, it would be like doing something in a pool. Yeah. All right, you have, there's certain just measurable factors that make it safer. So a sled dragging something is fundamentally different than lifting weights. Doesn't mean it's better than. Yeah, cause it's not weight bearing. There's nothing pushing down on you. Exactly.

So. But it's still a weight exercise. You're still pulling weight. Yeah. It's vigorous. Yes. And so like, I was in this position where I'm on painkillers. There's all these things I can't do.

And so I'm going to the gym and basically doing upper body. It's like, what can I do for my life? Or you're hoping that some therapy thing works. Yeah. Hoping, hoping, hoping. So then when I found the sled thing, I found I could go work, sweat, legs burning and the pain going down.

I mean, to this day, like I'm just as fired up as I was at 19 years old in that parking lot because I could do something. And I just did it and did it and did it. Throughout the painkillers, stopped having to ice my knees. I was icing them four times a day. Wow. You never had to have the second surgery? No.

Amazing. Never even had my knees looked at again. Yeah. And now your knee condition, how would you say? Beyond what I thought was possible in terms of like extreme ability of the knees. Yeah. That's flooding.

So you went from never being able to dunk a basketball to now being able to dunk easily and even being able to dunk from standing still, not with a run up, which I don't know if most basketball players can do that. Not at my height. At my height, it would be unusual for a basketball player to be able to squat down

and spring up and dunk. Normally you would need a running start. Yes. So this sled thing was like my stepping stone and it's now I've been sent just thousands upon thousands of people with the same experience. Yeah, and it's not just for people with injured knees. Anyone who wants to strengthen their knees can do this. Yeah.

It's a healthy exercise to strengthen your knees. Yeah, I've been coaching others now for over 13 years because I pretty instantly started training people. It was so helpful. I was helping past friends from high school who also had had to quit their sport, stuff like that. others now for over 13 years because I pretty instantly started training people. It was so helpful. I was helping past friends from high school who also had had to quit their sport, stuff like that. So 13 plus years.

By this point, my passions are needs and longevity. Like the fact my mom at 70 now, she started six years ago and she can sprint. She looks like a 20-year-old when she sprints. And it's so great because she knows her formula for life. She has incredible mobility with my kids. It's like boom, exercise is sulfur. And the foundation is sled. And that means forward and backward.

But the reason that's her foundation is because she can go, she can get a vigorous workout, she can power up her legs, she can get incredible circulation and all safely. I just haven't found something where you can get all of those factors so safely. So in fact, I would actually relate the sled. Sure, there might be someone young, healthy, they can do deep squats, Olympic weightlifting,

and they might think, what a joke, I don't need that. And to some degree, they're right. But that's where the more broken down someone is, the older someone is, the more that becomes the foundation. And if you go into a gym and you do the leg press or most of the common leg exercise in the gym, your feet are flat. So the interesting thing when you're doing a sled,

I did it for the knee, but you're pushing through your toe, whether you're going forward or backward, it's a natural motion for the foot. It's not a flat footed motion. So my whole training process now has become trained from the ground up. So you start pushing through the toes and by the end of the session, I'm finishing with

like the elbow or the wrist. So I quite literally train from the toes, ankle, then get into the deeper legwork, then spine posture. And that's how I do a session. So that sled is like our foundational principle. How many students do you have now? Thousands of students. I put the data, like anything in my head,

my philosophy is that should be like free, just for everyone. So I try at week in, week out to take this data and make it fast where someone can study it. Then some of those people. And that will be on Instagram, main place? Instagram, YouTube, I've started doing threads on X, Twitter. Those would be the three main,

because it's like three different styles. YouTube, you have the widescreen, the longer form. Instagram, you have the vertical shorter. And then X, Twitter, you have the written within the silent pictures. I think that's actually my favorite one, because people can go at their own pace and absorb it almost like a little book or something,

but with silent demos. And then for over six years, I've been trying to make coaching affordable. So my highest price is $50 a month, no contract, and we answer you under 24 hours, seven days a week and coach your form. So you could send in video of yourself doing any of these exercises. We'll answer you, coach you under 24 hours, seven days a week, 50 bucks a month, no long-term contract. Is it easy to video yourself in a way

that you can see what needs to be seen? For each exercise, I tell you which angle is best. Where to put the camera. Where to put the phone. Would it be better to have someone in person? Yeah, for sure. There's now not thousands, but there's hundreds of coaches now around the world. Teaching knees over toes.

Yeah, that I've certified that they now know everything I know and can work with people in person. Amazing. Yeah. I think most people doing it are just observing it, studying it for free and doing it. And then you have a smaller percent that do the online and then a smaller percent of that who then actually pay for personal training. Yeah.

Anyone can do it for free. Yep. And then you can get more specific feedback to make sure you're doing them to the best of your ability with video. Yeah. And then in person if you want to. Yeah.

The results might not be any different. And the fact that it started by teaching people for free is amazing. And one thing I love about it is you didn't set out to be a coach, you set out to be a basketball player. And you were trying to help yourself, you were trying to cure yourself.

You had a terrible problem. And through your dedication to solving your problem, now thousands, maybe tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands are changing their lives because you were taking care of yourself. It's incredible. It's an incredible story. I got very lucky. It's amazing.

Have you yet found anything that can come close to what the sled can do that doesn't involve long distance. It's one of the downsides of the sled is you need a long flat place to do it. Yep, either good weather, a long flat place. Also, I remember being in that parking lot and if it had rained a little earlier, like some days I was like, oh, it's too hot outside and the friction has just met.

It's hard to make it consistent. Yeah, exactly. Sled on turf is ideal. Yes. That gym I started out at though didn't have that. So the first thing I found is like, if it was raining outside, I could go into one of the treadmills at the gym,

not turn it on, turn around, put my butt against the handle and spin the belt backward. Most treadmills at the gym have some degree of internal resistance. It's like a set amount, like you'll feel it. Now some of them are locked and you can't move it, but it seems like about 90% of treadmill models will move if not turned on.

And it almost mimics a sled. And so tons of people, that has worked for them. Could there be a specific device that designed to do that? Cause that seems like a- I eventually did that, yeah. It exists now? They're all over the world now, I sell them. What's it called?

The backward treadmill. Amazing. It's 600 bucks. Amazing. There's no electricity, so it's a lot cheaper than a regular treadmill. Yeah. And honestly, it's changed our lives

cause it's just this simple solution. And is it safe and comfortable? People found a little bit safer than the sled only in the sense that when you are dragging a sled, you still kind of have to be able to balance your own body to some degree. Whereas with this, there's railings. So like if I'm even working with someone

and they can't do a sled, they often find, well, they can hold onto the railings. Like they can support some of their weight balance and then spin it backward that way. And so, yeah, we have a 1.0 model that's now all over the world and I'm so happy working on a 2.0 because playing with it backwards, sometimes I turn around and spin it forward and I'm like, wow, this is really good for running too. So it's a process.

You start a product, do the best you can. I'll never stop trying to improve what I can do for the buck. L M N T element electrolytes. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best? Add Element Electrolytes to your daily routine. Perform better and sleep deeper. Improve your cognitive function. Experience an increase in steady energy with fewer headaches and

fewer muscle cramps. Element electrolytes. Drink it in the sauna. Refreshing flavors include grapefruit, citrus, watermelon, and chocolate salt. Formulated with the perfect balance of sodium, potassium and magnesium to keep you hydrated and energized throughout the day. These minerals help conduct the electricity that powers your nervous system so you can perform at your very best. Element electrolytes are sugar-free, keto-friendly and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinklmnt.com slash tetra and stay salty with Element Electrolyte. LMNT. Tell me about the process of designing a new piece of equipment and what goes into it. I got lucky because all these people I've been helping for free have a lot of resources.

And so brilliant engineers and people like that who are grateful to help and understand what it takes to start and don't gouge me on price or however it works. And then some of these people I'm able to gradually just then integrate into my team. And so quite frankly, haven't had to do jack shit other than use it a ton and then give them feedback. And really, that's about it. Yeah.

So it basically was crowdsourced, essentially. Basically. Yeah. My whole staff really is almost like people who were like doing it My app is made by one of my first guys when I was I first coached people online with WhatsApp and Google Docs and Private YouTube so it was just all free stuff And then eventually a website and then him being a coder and being like, okay We can do much better than this and then he's worked coder and being like, okay, we can do much better than this. Then he's worked for me and he's full time.

My whole team is all really people who were doing this stuff had results and were like- something that's really helping people and do my job. And then I'm lucky that my wife is really brilliant business woman. Great. I was the not understanding money and she's brilliant with that. So she's been able to turn these into really good jobs for people. Excellent.

Tell me about the app. Cool. So this is where it comes in. I don't know how to code anything. I knew I wanted the least clicks necessary. Like I wanna open up the app and with the least number of clicks, be able to see every program, be able to see how to do any exercise

and be able to send in. So you right from the app, boom, click and you can film your own form right from, you don't have to like go out and film yourself from your photos, doesn't shut off your music if you wanna keep listening to your music. Great, and he's always trying to work on it. It's really that simple.

You could see any program, any exercise, film yourself, ask questions with the least number of clicks necessary. Great, so you can learn the exercise from OmniApp and then you can send in your version of it and get any feedback of how to do it better. Exactly. Amazing.

It's like, what would I want as a user? Wouldn't really want to pay more than 50 a month for coaching. Yeah. And 50 a month for coaching is six days a week? Yeah, whatever someone wants. We don't limit how much you... No, but typically it's like six days a week is the program that you do and that you recommend. Maybe from three to six.

Three to six? Yeah. Okay. I'd say now with two kids, I'm more of like a three days full body, just feel incredible. That's great. And then, but not be like having to drag myself. Like my three workouts now are like,

just like my time and feels incredible. Yeah. And at the end of your workouts, you don't feel like you killed yourself. Someone could, but the idea is that, yeah, you'd feel pretty good. Like you'd feel more limber, you'd feel really good, really good circulation.

That would be the goal. So typically for the 50 bucks, it's 12. 12 to 24. Yeah, like 24. Like a lot of sessions. Yeah. Which if anyone's ever hired a personal trainer, it's much more expensive than that.

Yeah, and again, for someone else, the personal trainer might really be the best thing for them. Absolutely. So, like when I was having problems, no way I would have afforded more than 50 bucks a month. Yeah. And this would have sped up your whole process

had you had all this information then. Yeah, that's about what I was spending, if not a little more, when I was like a teenager. I would read books, I would sign up for online programs. Sometimes I would save up for a personal training session with someone. So yeah, I just looked back and it's like, someone in the online coaching game who was really smart

and actually gave me a ton of helpful advice, but when it came to price, they were like, yeah, to do this, you have to charge at least $100 a month, like have to. It was like specifically said, you have to charge at least $99 a month. And I was like, all right, I'll do it for half that. Everyone's kinda like, I don't know if,

maybe you could start like that and then increase the price if you need to, but we've just been able to stay that way. Yeah. It's always been and always has seemed that your mission is as much a humanitarian mission as anything else, and whatever financial success you have is just bonus,

really. My mom taught me, you measure your worth by how much you help other people, plenty comes back. That's what I found to be true. I was never really big into material stuff. I also don't think it would be accurate to be like, to deny that side of it as well.

Absolutely. So I think there's levels to it. I think there's people who just dislike money, don't wanna have it, other people, that it's like every day they're thinking, how can I get more? And then for me, it's like, that just gets stressful. I mean, you start looking at,

how can I do Facebook average? So like, I don't do a penny of ads. It's just another stress. I'll put out what I can for free. And if it helps people, people wanna support because I'm the same way. If I see someone I like, I've got value, I'm gonna buy your shit, I'm gonna buy a t-shirt, I'm gonna buy, like, it comes back.

I probably could make more money if I learned from a Facebook marketing, like I probably could, there's probably things I could do, but I mean, it just, I'm not happier at the end of the day by trying to think about, it's like, put out good stuff, have good services that do financially work out so you can pay your bills, you can

pay people well. And that's where I lucked out with my wife being really interested in that because I was too much on the side of like, just tell people don't need money. But now you got to pay bills and now you don't have time to put out the free content. So that's because I could pay my bills, I have the time to put out the free content. Yes, I learned TM when I was 14. And one of the things that Maharishi said about TM was, it doesn't cost any money to do TM, but he made it where you had to pay to learn it

and you had to pay, he decided whatever it costs to buy a refrigerator. And his idea was if you didn't pay for it, it wouldn't have as much value to you, the user. And meditation is as important in his mind as a refrigerator. So if you paid like for a refrigerator, you wouldn't buy a refrigerator and not use it.

You have to pay enough to where you're gonna get your money's worth by doing it. And it's interesting. You're right, I think there's a lot of truth to that. Someone pays for something, now they feel obligated to use it. They feel like they're invested in it in some way. Exactly, I think there's a lot of truth to that.

There's so many different ways to look at the business stuff. It was like that original knee mentor of mine, Charles Poliquin, one of his strongest pieces of advice was don't see life through a straw. That has just helped me so much in any situation to just be able to see there's pros and cons, there's different values, there's no like one absolute way. Because when you're on social media, it's almost like people are waiting to attack every different possible lack of context.

So I just try to see, look, there's context in everything. I know that you are focused on work primarily in your life. Not anymore. Oh, really? Tell me really? With two toddlers. Yeah. We'll work in family. Yeah. About six-ish years ago, got a dog, didn't want a dog.

Of course now I'm obsessed with him. He chews up the remote of the TV. And I was the kind that I would show up at work early, stay late, get home exhausted, ve veg out, watch Netflix or whatever. I just thought that was like, all right, like I have to. So when he chewed up the remote, I was kinda like, I need to get my shit together. So I tried to like go a year of not doing that

and it was like the best year of my life. So then I went back to it a bit, but once we had our first kid, I'm like, I'm gonna have to kick this habit again. And I've never gone back, so it was like three and a half years ago. And it's just like my wife and I, we don't. She's one of these people that can have like a bite

of a chocolate chip cookie and be like, wow, that was incredible. I'm like, what do you mean? You're not eating six of them? So I've kind of learned from her with that. And because she was strong with it and didn't need TV, her and I, I like, it shifted. We're obsessed with the kids.

There's nothing I could buy or do that would replace my time with them. And I used to feel like I had a weird job working from home online, being an online coach. Because I work from home, I film my videos in my yard. I'm much more involved with the kids. And it aligns with exercise. So I'm lucky that my kids and all the time with them,

it also aligns with these problems of how do you raise a kid now to eat healthy food and exercise and these kinds of things. My worlds are blending of adult knees and longevity, also with youth exercise. And how do you do that in a way? and and we were I don't know when we started We're all in but yeah My wife and I we bought some land where we could afford to get some land and we're building a schoolhouse great

So that other local kids will want to come over maybe 10 20 kids with my kids I want a home school, but I don't want them to be quote unquote home school Small class type environment. And my wife and are gonna be running the school. Amazing. Yeah. And hopefully you'll come up with a curriculum that you'll also be able to share with everybody. Yeah, I love sharing it. So I already put out my first proposed exercise routine. Yeah. So I have like on my Instagram,

YouTube, I call the school common sense university, common sense you with like the letter U.org, I'm keeping everything there for free. So like people can go right now and see my kids workout system free. The kids stuff will always be free. It sounds great. Yeah.

How were you first able to get your message out? Let's see. Used Instagram. That was the first social media platform Used Instagram tried to just film get the message out every day just showing what you were doing Yeah people in person telling me like this needs to be common knowledge out there So I came up with this knees over toes guy name which me it was like if I can just educate on this idea That knee over toes is not just like a blanket bad thing.

You called it that because historically we're taught that you never want to have your knees over your toes. Yeah. Your knees are never supposed to go more than 90 degree that 90 degree angle. That's what they always teach in physical education. Yeah. There's more pressure on your knee. Yes. When it goes over your toes, that was found in the seventies.

Yes. And that it was dangerous to do. That was the conclusion. Yeah. That was the old thinking or still the mainstream thinking. Yeah. You actually had like historically people exercised and actually did plenty of exercises with their knees over their toes.

When exercise then started becoming a university subject, like let's do studies on this, let's test it. So you have this finding that knee over toes equals more pressure on the knee. So that's a finding, pressure. Now there have been long-term analysis and it's like, whoops, actually people who train that preserve the knee better, have less lower body injuries.

So even academia now, the academic studies show word for word, contrary to commonly voiced concern, but that's what went in is no knees over toes. That's what got entered into the textbooks. So it's this tricky situation now where, and lots of professors reach out to me and they tell me that some professors even have to put the notations in the textbook saying this actually is incorrect and here's a link to a later study.

But the professors also tell me that most professors don't do that. So the majority, if you're in college right now for exercise science, the majority are being taught something that actually has been proven false. And they're being made to believe it, being made to answer it that way on tests in order to graduate and then perpetuating that. So for me, it was like, if I could just get out awareness on that point, that would be a worthwhile career. What's also interesting is you had the experience

of healing your knees to the point of where you got drafted for basketball. College, yeah. Yeah. And the same people who drafted you based on the strength of your knees, which were only that way because of your workouts, then told you you're not allowed to do those workouts.

Is that really a true story? Yeah, so I went, I got a scholarship to a junior college. It's a two-year college. They didn't have a strength department. I remember early on, like an assistant coach, of course told me no knees over toes, can't bend your knee deep below 90 degrees. And I had to follow those instructions, but they didn't really keep up a strength system. There was no strength

coach for the team, just a cheaper two-year school. So by my second year, I was able to do my own workouts. And I got a lot of heat for it at first. My teammates didn't like the fact that I wasn't doing the team workouts. I would then invite teammates to go with me to show them like how hard I was training. It took time to build up respect of the coach like they knew I was doing my knees over toes workouts. But the rest of the team like I wasn't doing some of those team workouts. And those kept me so healthy. I didn't miss a game. Without the knees over toes. I

wouldn't have been playing college basketball. Right, and I helped my team win two straight conference titles. I've been super close with the head coach to this day and I actually then went back after graduating and actually implemented this stuff with the teams. They've been one of the most successful junior college teams in the country

to the point that that head coach is now a head division one coach. Amazing. At a four year school. Amazing. And they'll keep doing knees over toes there. But the majority of college graduates and to be at a four year college, you now have a strength coach who's certified and so they're certified and told no knees over toes.

So it was like I was being told, well, yeah, you're not going to be allowed to do knees over toes here. And it's like, but that's what got me here. It's a true story. Yeah. And concurrent with that, I was 23 years old by that point because it took me some years after high school

to fix my knees, to then even try to go to college. So NCAA division one denied my eligibility to play. I was too old to play. So I could either get a lawyer and fight it. I got a division one, full ride division one scholarship, or I could play Division II. But whether it was Division I or Division II, they weren't going to let me do knees over toes. And it was the summertime. I was already training kids, helping kids

get out of knee pain, helping other high school players fix their knee pain. So when my eligibility was denied, I was like, I'm meant to start coaching people. I don't want to go through another two years of trying to train behind the coaches back. It wasn't fun. I wasn't trying to be different from the team. And so I've just been training people ever since. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world.

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Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit squarespace.com slash Tetra and get started today. Have you noticed any other discrepancies in what's taught in the textbooks, not just knees over toes, any other things that you do that's a little different? Everything that you're told not to do. Yes. There's gotta be some context, meaning your body, it's not made a certain way and it's like, whoops, well don't move it that way. Whatever your body could move.

It's meant to do. That's okay. Yeah. That was a huge eye-opener for me as I kept going and going and going. It's like, I don't believe there's a bad exercise. Every day people ask me, oh, I see this video says this is bad or you shouldn't do this for your shoulders.

It's all context. The exercise landscape would be much better if every trainer understood that any natural human movement you can do is fine. Then there's context like how a sled you could load with weight and it's fundamentally pretty safe. Like that's context. It doesn't mean that heavy weight bad, heavy weight, lightweight, is it should body weight only or is it, it's all context.

Weights, machines, body weight, pressing over your head, rounding your spine, twisting your spine, anything you could possibly do with your body is all context and overall I would say it's like wherever your body has limitations In my opinion there hasn't been enough time for the studies to be done and so on but without question in my experience It's like wherever someone has limitation is where they're gonna have the most problems So you would almost want to find rather than avoiding that thing So you would almost want to find, rather than avoiding that thing, find what level could they do at that thing and then build from there.

Some people have had to walk backward in a pool. It was too much for them to walk backward on land, but rather than saying, don't do that, it's like, well, at what level could you do that? Yeah. Describe the different exercises that are in your mind, the key exercises. What are the handful that would probably benefit most people? Right to mind jumps and I make the most videos on these is we've already covered the sledding and then or the backwards treadmill which sounds great sled or resisted treadmill and there are

other brands of resisted treadmills gym models that are five thousand ten thousand dollars i was just trying to make a cheaper one for home use but again where's the resistance is from under your foot like the resistance is the ground itself rather than bearing down on you so to me that that category of exercise huge where you're resisting from the ground with sled or resisted treadmill that's to me that's number one and then to me number two is, for lack of a better term, stretch strength. So the bulk of the quote unquote weightlifting I do,

if someone looked at it, it would be like, is that a strength exercise? Yeah. Is he stretching right now? Yeah. I'm stretching and strengthening at the exact same time. And so a classic one is a split squat,

but where your front leg is going all the way down, like a deep squat on the front leg. So when you say squat, I think of feet together, but going down. It's not that, it's more like a lunge. It's like exactly, it's like a lunge, but where your front leg is all the way down deep. Your front leg. Where your front leg is all the way down deep. Your front leg.

Where your front knee goes as far forward as it can. Yep, and your butt drops. So the front leg is in a deep squat and the back leg is stretching like you feel the front of your hip muscles stretching. So the back knee doesn't go down to the ground. Exactly, it doesn't touch. Right, so the front of the leg,

the front of the back leg stretches. Yep. That's right. While the front leg is knees over toes. Yeah. And your butt gets as close to that front foot as possible, I assume. Yep.

That's right. And the average person is not going to be able to do that standing on the ground. That's a good goal to get to. Like for my mom, she's 70, she's worked her way to where she can do that, and now it's like, mom, maintain that the rest of your life. And you're like way ahead of the game.

But the more you elevate the front foot, the easier it gets to do the exercise. And then you can put stuff near you for assistance. So you have, with this exercise, which like you you're saying you could call it a deep lunge Yeah, it's a deep lunge in place. Like you're not a walking lunge. You're staying in the same spot. Mm-hmm the front leg you're going as deep as you can the back leg you're stretching as much as you can and Then you could have assistance you could do like less than your body's weight Mm-hmm, and you can elevate the front foot, which requires less

flexibility. The lower you go requires more flexibility. And then you could remove the assistance so you're doing your own body weight and you can even add weight. So for me, I use about 45 pounds in each hand, flat on the ground, no apparatus needed, and just drop down into this deep lunge. But I had to start with my front foot elevated, assisting myself to balance. My mom had to start that way. So my goal is doing it weighted. My mom's goal is just maintaining her body weight.

My wife is a figure skater, so she actually then elevates her back foot for even more stretch. Because she has to go around on the ice holding up a leg in a splits. I can do a splits. She has to be able to do it like beyond splits, at least for her figure skating goals. It's not a one size fits all kind of thing.

It has many different levels and different ways people could do it. But that was the one after the idea of strengthening from the ground up with sled or resisted treadmill, this idea of stretch strength strengthening my muscles through full ranges of motion, stretching, strengthening at the same time. That had the most powerful effects to then keep me off pain killers. So like I've never gone back.

I haven't 10 plus years without a setback. And that's without question is the biggest reason why. Amazing. So split squats is a good one. Yeah, and we just call it ATG split squat. What does ATG mean? ATG has always been the term for ass to grass, meaning is a good one. Yeah. And we just call it ATG split squat. What does ATG mean? ATG has always been the term for astagrass, meaning like a deep squat.

So it's like, do you squat to, you know, 90 degrees or do you squat astagrass? And so in trying to give it a name that people would understand, just called it. And then a split squat refers to a lunge where you're in place. Yes. A lunge typically refers like you're moving,

you're covering distance. Whereas a split squat is just an in place lunge. So an ATG split squat is then an ass to grass split squat. On the front foot, is it okay if the heel comes off the ground? Totally fine. Doesn't matter? So like if someone were to squat down right now

and keep their heels down. Yes. There's gonna be more pressure in the back. And that's fine. Like, there's different exercises you can do to build the back. If you think about a power lifter squatting 1000 pounds, the heels are down, they're not like up on their tippy toes, the heels are down, and more weight shifts to the back. But then as you lift your heels, maybe you think about

like a dancer doing some deep move, where the knees are way over the toes and the heels are lifted, the back is no longer the limiting factor of the legs and the knees are the limiting factor. So in any squat, whether a split squat or regular squat, there's no good or bad. It's just different context. The more the heels are down, the more you're going to be training the hips. And then the more the heels up, the more the load is going to go to the knee. So some people find different comfort of what they like. Some people mix it up.

I mix it up. I do both. So a heel up more knee heel down more hip. I remember at least in the seventies, I don't know if it's still the case that basketball players were high top sneakers. It's the idea of a high top getting support of the ankle a good idea or a bad idea? Well, Kobe was really the innovator on this,

at least as far as I can see. On having a high top basketball shoe, sounds like it would protect the ankle, but an ankle sprain is so much force, there's not evidence that a high top protects the ankle better. A low top means that your general ankle is gonna be stronger.

So the more high top, the weaker the ankle is gonna be. And if you do sprain, that fabric is not necessarily enough to prevent it from spraining. Yeah, so Kobe went to a low top shoe. I like a low top shoe. At the end of the day. What's popular now in basketball? Low top, yeah top shoe. I like a low top shoe. At the end of the day. What's popular now in basketball?

Low top, yeah. Everybody. I wouldn't say everybody, but I've done surveys on this with my buddies and stuff because it's like, man, it seems like people really like the Kobe shoes more. And yeah, the average basketball player, like the majority prefer what Kobe really popularized, which was a lower top basketball shoe. And he didn't even like as big of a heel cushion. That was like a marketing thing.

It's kind of like we need a good idea. And it came from a guy in NASA who was like, all right, let's put air in the heel of a shoe. It didn't come from someone who plays basketball. Yeah. A guy from NASA came up with the idea of like putting air in the heels of basketball shoes. The study done on that shows you're four times more likely to sprain your ankle. You don't jump off the heels. you jump off the balls of the feet. And just elevating a basketball shoe upward, higher off the ground,

that means when you do roll your ankle, it's just a more massive sprain. So Kobe not only wanted low top, he then didn't want the giant cushion in the heel. So you're actually, the heel is lower to the ground. The ball of the foot is still about the same spot. The ball of the foot was never elevated super high as the heel is lower to the ground. The ball of the foot still about the same spot. The ball of the foot was never elevated super high as the heel elevated super high. So he really had like a common sense basketball shoe in my opinion.

Did you ever read Born to Run? Yeah. That talked about most running injuries are due to shoes and the fact that they're not made as if you were running barefoot. Yeah, running barefoot, let's say in grass, you might have like a natural running pattern. But now if you're running on concrete,

obviously barefoot, you don't wanna step on something. So concrete's not natural, but neither would like a giant shoe be natural. So I just think for most people, it's gonna be somewhere in the middle. I like to wear something, like when I'm playing basketball, well, I'm on a hardwood floor. I can't wear a pure barefoot shoe on a hardwood basketball

because the hardwood is not natural. Too hard. Yeah, so ideal would be, I mean, before recording, I came early just to go put my feet in the sand. Yeah, the best. Down the road. It feels incredible. Feels so good.

That's something that's natural, but it's not realistic for everyone. So I think people have to find like what type of shoe works best for them. And for most people I found it's going to be something where you have some support, but not like extra support. And with running, some people even run barefoot and stuff. There would be a lot of adaptation that would have to occur in the foot, but there's no doubt that barefoot is natural. So then, all right, what surface are you living on in life? Can you stay natural? Do you need some support?

How much support? Because concrete's not natural. Yeah, so it's just what's your lifestyle. But yeah, the typical workaday businessman shoes, they jam the toes in so much. My feet were deformed to look exactly like basketball shoes. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever tried the, uh, yoga toe spreaders? For sure. I even make some cause people, people like this. My least impressive invention is a basketball shoe

that is shaped like a foot. So it doesn't jam the tongue. Why is that least impressive? Well, cause try explaining to a kid, this is a shoe that's shaped like a foot. I mean, shouldn't a shoe be shaped like a foot? You'd think so. Yeah. No, in basketball. So for years and years, I'm like, someone needs to make a basketball shoe that doesn't jam your big toe in that lets your big toe be straight. So when I play basketball, I put in the big toe spacer and I wear my shoe that doesn't jam the toe in. And so then when I'm playing on the court,

I can actually feel my big toes helping me out. There's even some false data of like, well, the toes being jammed in gives you like a performance boot. It's just not true. There's no science behind that. I'm out there playing, dunking, all the dunks you see me do on my page.

I'm wearing shoes that don't jam my big toes in, and I've got a big toe spacer for my previously deformed feet, and my toes, my big toes in, and I've got a big toe spacer for my previously deformed feet, and my toes, my big toes are helping me out. And there's only one guy on earth who's 50 years old and not over six foot who can still dunk a basketball. And he can even do it barefoot. And he takes the time to do the exercises and make his toes. He thinks that big toe is his extra little boost.

Not to mention for health reasons. Cadeur Ziani, French guy, one of the smartest people I've met, huge heart. And so look, if he doesn't need to jam in his big toes and he's 50 years old dunking a basketball, you don't have to jam in your big toes. Yeah. Are your shoes available? Yeah, yeah. I sell them. We call it the uncivilized sneaker.

That sounds great. It's been a great business. Great. Sneaker business is super fun, super awesome. They're comfy to wear? Do you wear them? Every workout, yeah. Nice.

So like when I, I try to just be barefoot or like Birkenstock something like just Those don't jam in the big toes, but like at home. I'm just barefoot I work out a lot barefoot but depending on what I'm doing like if I'm gonna be like sledding hard or Anything that I do then want to wear shoes. That's all I wear So I mean, I'm either Birkenstocks or the uncivilized sneaker or barefoot. That's it the uncivilized sneaker or barefoot, that's it. healing and ceremonial rites and rituals for centuries. More recently it has been shown to increase alertness, improve focus, elevate mood, enhance cognition, heighten reward sensation

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So sleds number one, split squats is number two. Yeah, stretch strength, which you could apply for all sorts of areas of your body. What would be the next one up? I would go right from there. It's like, I think of it on the order of, if you abbreviate it, it's lead, stretch strength, no weak links. Meaning there are some things that because gyms were not set up a certain way that almost everyone has certain muscles that just were missed out on. I see.

So one I talk about a lot is the tibialis muscle, the anterior tibialis. So that means anterior front and tibialis means of the shin bone, the tibia is the shin bone. So it's not your calf muscles. It's on the other side. And so like if you went into a gym right now and you said, means of the shin bone, the tibia is the shin bone. So it's not your calf muscles, it's on the other side. And so like if you went into a gym right now, and you said, where's the calf machine? They would show you to a standing or seated calf machine.

But then if you said, where's the tibialis machine? Like I wanna do the opposite. I train my biceps and my triceps, I wanna train my calves and my tips. I train my chest and my back. You got the front and the back. So most people have built up and they don't train that muscle. And so when it comes to, okay, we're sledding now, we're getting stretch strength,

going deep leg work. Well, I was still having some major shin problems. Like I was powering up my legs and even my calves were getting stronger. My feet were getting stronger from the sledding, I was doing calf raises, but I just kept having shin problems. And so it was really frustrating to like have finally overcome my knees and then sometimes to try to go play basketball and have debilitating shin pain to where I have to stop playing because my shins are hurting so bad. Like what the heck? And it's because I was coming from such a fragile body, now I'm building all these other muscles so I created this huge discrepancy

that the front of my shin, the tibialis muscle was never trained. So it's super underdeveloped, starts under the knee, wraps around to the inside of the shin. So adding that to the formula, and like I've never looked back. What's the exercise? You can do it with a wall.

So you don't need any equipment. You have a wall and your butt's against the wall and your legs are in front of you and you raise your toes. So it's like a reverse calf raise. Yeah, but do that 25 times, you're on fire. So you can do it that way without any equipment. And then I was desiring though, like some sort of measurement,

like, all right, these other exercises, we have weights, there's measurement. And there was a guy who had created a bar to strengthen the tibial. So you put weights on it, you sit on a bench, and you're able to do reverse calf raises with the bar and weights, there's weights hanging down. And they were no longer being produced.

He passed away, self-proclaimed bad businessman, really should have turned it into a business. I would love to be like paying him royalties on it or something. So I started making videos saying, I was like strapping stuff to my feet. I was taping or banding weights to my feet. An equipment company reached out,

said what needs to exist that doesn't, I said this bar needs to be revived. And they did that. I wasn't involved in the business of it whatsoever. There's now, you can go on Amazon and type TibBar, and there's like dozens of sellers. And they're not mine. I make one.

I do have my own now. It's like a category now. Tibbar. Yeah, for the average person, that's gonna be really helpful. And if you think about longevity and having more strength coming from those lower leg muscles, this is very helpful for the rest of your life

to be stronger down lower towards your ankle and knee. So I would say sled, ATG split squat, tibialis would be the three most common that I've seen the average person has like some gains that they haven't tapped into. Upper body? Upper body I train the same style of like the stretch and the strength. So when I press dumbbells, like I don't stop the dumbbells at my chest. I turn my wrist so that the dumbbells can keep stretching down without touching my body. Pull-ups, hanging, that stuff is great. Like I like to do pull-ups through a full range of motion

or have people hang. So I've seen great results for the upper body with that too. But it's not like I was a baseball player with elbow or shoulder surgeries. So the upper body, I keep similar principles as the lower body, but I definitely don't do as much content on it because I'm not trying to claim stuff I haven't experienced.

So I've seen good results with the same philosophies, stretch strength, no weak links in the upper body. Okay, a lot of people bench press, good idea to strengthen weak links in the upper body. Okay. A lot of people bench press. Good idea to strengthen the muscles on the opposing side. I think it's all pretty common sense in the upper body. Definitely take some heat. Sometimes like if I show using full range of motion in the upper body, there's similar limiting beliefs of like, oh, you're not supposed to bend the elbows deep,

or you're not supposed to do full range of motion with the upper body. But I don't think that's the case. So as a rule do full range of motion with the upper body. But I don't think that's the case. So as a rule, full range of motion seems good. It's called full range of motion because it's natural. I think it's outstanding. And it just may mean learning new techniques that you haven't seen people doing in the gym. So I mean, it's different and that can be like a little bit scary at first.

But short term, you're maybe using a little less weight, or looking a little differently, but long term to build a more protected body. And if the studies on the lower body show that the fuller range of motion equals more protection, I can't imagine that then for the elbows, the shoulders, and I've had similar success. There's tons of success stories of people using these same principles for the elbows, the shoulders, the spine, and having really life changing results. People have had debilitating problems for the elbows, the shoulders, the spine, and having really life-changing results. People who have had debilitating problems with the back or the shoulders.

And it seems like if you were training in a limited way in the gym, but then in a real-world situation, you had to stretch in a different way because of the whatever thing you're dealing with, you wouldn't really be prepared. It seems like full range of motion is life. Yeah, that's how I view it.

Tell me about flexibility. Why is it important? Is it as important as strength? Ying yang, baby. Youth is flexibility. Adulthood then is strength. What's aging? Loss of both.

So to me, what I see the best longevity results is training those two concepts in harmony, the strength and the flexibility. It's not which is better, or it's not just be flexible but don't be strong, or be strong but not flexible. I'm particularly obsessed with this stretch strength where you're training both at the same time.

You're not using an amount of weight that causes you to stop short. Like if you load enough, you won't be able to use your full flexibility. And you're not stretching beyond a point that you're strong. You're not forcing yourself past a stretch that you're not strong in that position. So everything I do,

I don't personally do any passive stretches. I use the strength through my flexibility. And I've seen, even if someone wants to add more stretching to that, they totally could. But like, I can do the splits and you can definitely get to some excellent levels of flexibility with stretch strength training. You always do them together.

That's right. And if there's not a convenient way to add weights, it's more like I'm in a position where I'm stretching, but I'm not just passively there. I'm like actively strengthening the muscles against a pad or whatever it is. Is there a body weight only version for every exercise if you don't have any equipment?

As far as I've seen, yeah. Pretty dang close to it. Again, it doesn't mean that body weight's better, but it's sure cool that it's accessible Absolutely, if you happen to be in a situation where you don't have any equipment and you still want to be able to do it Yeah, seems good. Yeah, sometimes it's a great way to learn too because you can't rush the process You're like trying to own your body. I think it's fantastic Huge fan of bodyweight training and yeah, I relentlessly try In any newer video people are gonna see of me,

you're gonna see me taking a lot of time to show context, to show how to do it with bodyweight. That's great. Yeah, I have a whole, my whole kid system, all 10 steps. You don't need any weights, like it's all bodyweight. And can adults do the kid system as well? Oh, I do. I mean, people are texting me saying,

hey, my whole family just did the CSU workout, the CSU fitness regimen. So yeah, the CSU fitness regimen is free. It's been hours and hours to try to make it just as fast to learn for people as possible. And it's like a 10 step workout that your kids could do. You could do it with them. And yeah, it's body weight. It doesn't mean that you couldn't add weights to it, but it's like, yeah, it's a body weight system. Why not?

Master your body, you're young. Master your bodyweight at a young age. It's fantastic. You still have time to then learn how to add weights. Best foot exercises. Not gonna claim to be an expert there. I will say that the fact of starting with the slider-resistant treadmill, you're really engaging those foot structures. Yeah. So I think there's a lot more that someone could add for themselves.

I try to keep almost like what's the least number of tools that I need. Yep. When you're pushing through, I think of it like a big three, if you're pushing through those foot structures with the slider resisted treadmill, if you're training your calves and your tibialis, the calf muscles, those run really deep. The tibialis runs really deep and even attaches to the inside of the foot. Boy, you're doing those three things.

The majority of people are gonna be symptom-free, are gonna have really good feet. So it's like, all right, if we can do those basics and the average person can have great feet, that doesn't mean there might not be further value. But like, that's what I've lived, that's what I've experienced, that's what I've coached thousands of times.

I can't really see myself going beyond that in terms of what I coach. Anything specific for the toes or that's also again, I think that just goes beyond like my thoughts on it are like, I wish every gym had like a big sand pit or something. I mean, it's so amazing when you're in really good sand, your feet are doing all these things that might take just lots of complexity to do. And bear in mind for me, when I work out, it's the same process every time. If I'm in the gym with a sled, great.

If I'm at home, I've got my resisted treadmill. Within 60 seconds, I'm huffing and puffing. My legs are on fire. So I only know lace up, start workout. Within 60 seconds, I'm huffing and puffing, my legs are on fire. So I only know lace up, start workout, within 60 seconds, I'm huffing and puffing, my legs are burning, like I'm working out. So for me, the idea of doing further toe drills, I do that, then I train my ankles. So when I do the tibialis and the calves, not only do those get a good burn, I'm still catching my breath from the sled. And then by then I'm

already into the deep legwork. So it's like everything I do is metabolically really demanding. It's a workout. Like 20-30 minutes of this, you could get a full body workout. There's nothing I do that's like just a drill that's not metabolically. So I feel like someone if they have the time and the desire, there's so many great resources these days the foot Collective on Instagram. There's dedicated pages just as I put out what I know for free There's dedicated pages putting out more data on the foot

So for a lot of people that might be like if the basics don't cover it, maybe Get even more ability for the area. It's just, I'm not going to try to be an expert on something that I haven't had to really master. And yeah, sand. One day we got to have sand in every gym. Have sled, have sand. Man. And you don't need that much sand, right? Because you could do it in place, do you think, most of the sand stuff? Like, I think it's a cool idea, just like walking in sand. I don't know, maybe they could make like giant treadmills

that just kind of slow. Just like slow and then you just go take a walk. And I don't know. I mean, who knows what people can come up with. Yeah. But I've always been like, man, it'd be so cool if there was some way to get sand. Yeah, what's the equivalent of walking in sand

in a treadmill like experience? That's a good, that's a good problem. So for a walk, but you know, it's, you get outside in the sun, walking in actual sand, there's so many benefits. So maybe it's like, maybe the real solution there is find the best grass or sand near you and heck, if you're in Minnesota, that's really how the backward treadmill thing came about because I was making a sled with these really brilliant family with the factory in Minnesota.

And they're like, well, we can't use the sled most of the year, it's freezing outside. So we started making a backward treadmill. So I feel like for Northern climates, yeah, I think you gotta get some sand in there somehow. Yeah, I think in your case, this also you have incredible dedication. You'll work at something for years and years and years

and years to get the results you want. You're tenacious. And I think that's a huge piece of the puzzle of that I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes doesn't have to be terrible, but you're consistent and you'll show up and you'll do it, whatever it is. Yeah, that's often how things get done.

You don't know what's on the other side, but you know you're gonna keep showing up. Absolutely. The one for me now and then is like, I've committed now to putting a schoolhouse and teaching my kid, like, I'm finally earning the age where they can go to school and I can have the day off for myself and I'm committing myself.

Trust me, that's this like huge daunting thing of like, holy shit, there is no free time. It's, I'm now not only a dad, I'm now gonna be educating students. And there's a balance, I'll do certain things, I'll be more on the physical education side. But this is like this is what I'm committing to. Will I figure it out? Well, I'll have 10 plus years. I believe I can come up with a great youth health system where it doesn't

feel forced, where they're self-determined, where they understand their body, where they don't feel forced, where they enjoy it. Like these are the goals I have for it. Well, I'm gonna show up for 10 plus years. And you know, you have the love and you have the intention, which is probably more than they could get from anyone else in any system. And that's probably the most important part. Yeah, yeah.

The best teachers I had growing up, you could feel the love. It was there, like they really cared about you. And I think there's a lot of rightnesses about the school system, but for me, I couldn't find something that I honestly felt. I am lucky to be in the position I'm in. I'm lucky that my job is making videos in my yard.

I'm not gonna squander that. And what else am I gonna do now with the time if my kids are in school during the day? Like I lucked out. I'm either heading towards the next 10 years of thinking, ooh, what more business opportunities might there be for me? I found the shit I like to do. I'm good.

Or could I be of more service? Kids health, you know what? If I look around, what things could I be of more service? Kids health, you know what? If I look around, what things could I do? I can't see anything that I could be of more potential value than that. So throwing myself in there. Great. Sitting behind a desk all day when you're a little kid,

that seems insane. That seems like the worst idea. One to one ratio minimum is one of the key principles to me that I refuse to break. I refuse to believe that you have to be in the classroom more than half the time. And I couldn't find a single school system that does this. Well, any that I could find, you're in the classroom the majority of the time. I went through it. The amount of actual time that I was learning critical things, I took it seriously.

I only got a B one time, always. I took it seriously. I did what I was told to do. I can see the areas that really were needed. I think you can get the basics in in less amount of time. I think you only need 40 minutes for a class, not an hour. So I'm doing 40 minute classes rather than an hour. So you got 20 minutes, just be a kid. 40 minutes focused, I'll bet we can do more than 60 minutes and then you're just turning over to be a kid. 40 minutes focused, I'll bet we can do more than 60 minutes and then you're just turning over to the next class. 40 minutes with a 20 minute break and then at least half of the quote unquote classes

are not in the classroom. Like school made me hate reading. So I'm thinking of school, not as the end of education. I'm thinking of school as how can I set up the rest of life. Yeah, creating curiosity. Yeah. Problem solving.

Yeah. One of the things that I'm proposing that I'm gonna attempt in the school is that when it comes to the reading class, is that the kids pick what they wanna read about. I'm sure over 10 years of schooling or whatever it is, I'm gonna focus on the six to 14 age. So roughly eight years of like,

I think in eight years I can get the basics in. I think that's a good amount of time that a kid can become a good reader, a good writer, good at the basics of math. But can you become good at reading and writing by reading and writing about things you're interested in? I think so. Yeah, I'll say probably better

That's that's what I'm Hypothesizing so I'm not I'm not saying yeah from 6 to 14 My kids are not gonna read it's like my goal is actually that my kids will love reading Yeah, because they'll be able to find stuff. want to read about. The reason you were willing to do so much work on yourself was because of your love of basketball. And a lot of the work that you were doing wasn't playing basketball, it was training so that you could play basketball the way you wanted to play basketball. If it wasn't for the love of basketball, you would have never put yourself through all

that, both learning and physical work. Good point, yep. It's the same thing. Yeah, yeah, another one that Charles Poliquin, he said, don't see life through a straw, and he firmly believed in love, meaning like it wasn't discipline, it was love. Like you love, you know, it's just semantics,

but his viewpoint was like, you love something enough that it makes you appear then disciplined or so on, you know, it's different ways to think about it, but the point is that Yeah, I think when it comes to reading and writing I Found that I did best when I was reading and writing things I was interested about of course all of a sudden I was this great read like when I looked back through my schooling there were times, I was this great reader. When I looked back through my schooling, there were times when I was this great reader, because I was actually interested in that book, or I was great at writing. What I found is I would take every creative writing class I could, but then I hated English class. Now, writing has been one of the most helpful parts of my career, is writing. I grew up hating the thought of writing

until I found the creative writing classes. Because you got to write about what you were interested in. Yeah, and it just wasn't quite enough creativity though. It was like, okay, I have to pick creative writing, but now I'm giving up any other art? Like, wait, I can't creative write and do music? Or like, there was almost so much time in the day, and so much of it was the stuck in the classroom stuff.

I think kids can learn plenty fine, balancing up with more time to be a kid, art, anything creative, athletic, whatever. I think they'll learn a bit better. Welcome to the house of macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood, sustainably sourced directly from farmers. Macadamias, a rare source of omega-7, linked to collagen regeneration,

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I know that if there's some issue with my wife To the core of me. I know it's gonna work out better to actually bring it up at whatever Gentle level rather than avoid it. Yeah, it's like you some of the lessons from the training have Helped me in life that it's like facing the thing. Yeah rather than avoid it. It's like some of the lessons from the training have helped me in life, that it's like facing the thing rather than running from the thing. But not shotgun blasting. Not avoiding. Right, but what level could you approach it that could actually be like acceptable?

Yes. But then what could you build from there? And then before you know it, some subject that was tough or something, all of a sudden, that's not like a strength for you. So seeing that could happen, that my knees could go from a weakness to a strength, from actually facing them rather than the common advice

of avoiding them, but then building that on a step-by-step level. Now it's like, yeah, I could be good at anything. I don't know how good, but I could make a big leap. I could become proficient. I could become at a professional level at just about anything. Now, how good? Not everyone's going to be Michael Jordan, but could I actually get good quality skill?

I feel like I could learn anything to some level. Absolutely. You could train to do anything, and you could train to do anything a lot better than when you start, for sure. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. And just the desire and the putting in the work. Do you have any revisions of things that maybe in the beginning you did it one way, but you

found a better way? The one that just jumps to mind is social media is interesting because the modern algorithms sort of reward arguments in the comments. Like, I used to try to show more flashy things to get attention, like extreme knee exercises. But now it's almost like a challenge, like can I make regressions interesting enough that people will watch that? So definitely a shift in terms of like trying to make it really clear to people. You don't have to try extreme knee exercise. That's not the point of knees over toes. The point is actually regressions. Can I teach that at such quality that I can still get good views and so on?

I mean, that's been the biggest difference. Like it was very easy to like just do some freaky knee thing and get views, but you have people in the comments, oh my gosh, you should never let your, and you let the people argue and that stokes the out. So now I was like, can I actually just put out an educational work and still do fine? And I found, yeah, I can do totally fine. So definitely a revision in terms of like, people don't have to go to extremes on it.

Like they could apply this at whatever level. And if you do something at high enough quality, you can keep your integrity in. You don't have to sell out to whatever the platform. And that's what I would just tell the young up and coming content creators is like, sometimes I see it and sometimes I talk to these people and it's not necessarily good for your happiness

to like change your integrity to get views or make money. That's a really good point. It's one of the things that pushes me away from social media is the sensational nature of it. You know, like showing what's horrifying or the anger or And if you can create an argument in the comments, the platforms just give you more and more views. I had no idea. Oh, yeah, you can know that. Yeah, because I try to stay up to date on social media. And it's like, I can almost call it one for one.

Like I'll point out to my wife and she'll be like, oh my gosh, you know this, just to stay up to date, like what's the editing styles? What's doing well? See something viral. And she'll be like, oh wow, that's a great parenting tip. I'm like, no, no, no, you don't see why it went viral. Wait till you open up the comments.

It went viral because of this. Because it made people angry? Because of this point that could be, like you see a mom working hard at home, working out, and the baby's nearby, and you go to the comments, and it's all people saying, don't lift weights near a baby. And so then you can also see when creators

intentionally do stuff like that. Yeah. Because they're chasing the views. So social media is interesting that, yes, statistically you could almost manufacture successful views by throwing your integrity out the door. And some of the best content creators I know don't get as much views because there's no argument.

They're not playing the game. Right. If you taught something well enough that there would be no argument in the comments, you get less views. That's shocking. It's really a sad state of the industry. Yeah, and so then you end up with the masses very confused and taking sides.

I mean, it's just, it leads to so much taking sides and arguments when it's really the context and that's why I think I think This day and age if you're coming up You got to have some sort of advisors and I don't even mean in person. I mean, alright someone who listened to this podcast It's gonna learn some things that you might not see in a social media video That then might guide you that then when you're faced with that that you would go, you know I'm gonna keep my integrity in on this knowing that I could still get 10,000 views and build up You know a legitimate business for myself instead of playing that game and that would be okay

Yeah, and I could be happier. Yes with my integrity in and that the more views doesn't equal more happy because it actually does Yeah, if your integrity goes out for more Yes. With my integrity in and that the more views doesn't equal more happy because it actually does. Yeah. If your integrity goes out for more success on paper, I think your happiness is going down. Yeah. Tell me about the whole, I know very little about social media. Tell me about your experience from the beginning. What did you learn?

What worked? What didn't work from the earliest days? Well, I started just on Instagram. That was the sort of most known short form platform. And you thought short forms are best way to teach. Just seeing like what the masses were kind of engaging in. This was a little bit before TikTok erupted. So at that time, Instagram still had more aesthetics.

Like at that time, like Joe Rogan finding my content blew up my content more than anything I've ever done. Luckiest thing that's happened to my content. It's lucky but also the content's good and he recognized something good. So it is lucky that he found it. Yeah, no doubt. But it's not unusual.

Yeah, no doubt. I had already helped thousands of people. But at that time you could put like some gorgeous visuals showing let's say regressions of form. Like you could put a quality thing and underneath it you could write something no gimmicks needed and it could do very well. Then TikTok came about about the short video age It's changed everything so now Instagram Once reals which is just a copy of tik-tok and even YouTube now wants shorts Which is just a copy of tik-tok the problem with short video without then being able to write about it or give longer explanation

It leads to these sort of arguments, and it's how can you get context across in such a fast video? And then the algorithm is clearly rewarding. How many comments and you know, and so Instagram is mostly a tick tock now. And YouTube is mostly a tick tock now. No matter how much effort I put into long form, all the top views are on short form videos. So for me, it's become a challenge of like, how do I keep my integrity? How do I give context?

How do I not have a single argument in the comments? Can I teach this without a single argument in the comments and have it do well? And it's fine. But do I see things that I could go, I could get more views if I did it this way Yeah, and that's where the maturity has been for me is seeing yeah, that's not actually the right thing to do You're starting from a solid place. Yeah, and people like your content. So you have you have an audience

Yeah. Yeah, and if you're trying to provide for a family, you can absolutely do that 100% with your integrity in yeah Just more views for everyone doesn't necessarily mean a more stable business. Yeah. And you can see some of these people who become sort of like social media celebrities and they're just putting their whole life on display and just any possible controversy and calling people out.

Is it like, that's one thing like I will never use someone else's name or image to put them down in my post, ever. Ever. Of course. Ever. Of course. You know, I've been able to talk with a lot of content creators

and it doesn't make people happier. I think life has probably always had ways to throw your integrity out. Yeah. And apparently win more. I think that's, maybe that will always be the case. Yeah. I think, are you that will always be the case. Yeah, I think

Are you trying to win today on paper? Are you trying to like win for real long term and I think it's like if you cheated a game Did you win the game exactly? I don't know. I don't know if that quite what are you playing for exactly? Like that's yeah, so I think there's got you know I think if people are gonna be on social media they have to have a purpose for doing it that has to be about trying to help other people because if it's not about helping other people, then I just feel like it can be a slippery slope if it's for the personal gain.

I'm sure there are plenty of politicians that they just feel the need to help other people and they've probably kept their integrity in better than people who are like, I would really like to be in that position of power for my own game. Yeah. So what's the best way if I want to learn your teachings, what would you say is the very best way to do it? Well, if you're on X or YouTube or Instagram, then knees over toes guy. Yep.

Every week I work to make it as frictionless as possible for you to learn everything I know. If I was starting from scratch. Yeah, it's gonna be the same content. But can I start anywhere? Do I have to like go back a couple of years? What do you recommend? You can just start right in.

I take extensive time to re-show regressions so you're getting context, you're seeing how to start. And if someone likes to just grab a book Knee ability zero is cheap on Amazon and that would be like a good place to start But it's not like there's some like secrets in there. No that are not on your social media posts Yeah, so I you know that is what I work for like I do work for the social medias to be something that anyone new could open up and get a good idea. I try not to make redundant content, meaning if I need to update something, I'll take something down from the past, even if I had a lot of views, if I could teach it a little bit better. Oh, that's great.

Yeah, so that when you go to the page, it's like... It'll have the up-to-date information. Yeah. That's great. The idea is if you watched a few, like you're already like getting with it. That's what I try to do at least. Great. What products are you making

besides the backwards treadmill? And there's the shoes. ATGequipment.com is really everything I use. All the equipment I use, all the unusual stuff, always working on stuff. So it's like, you have the data, but to be able to apply the data, gyms are not necessarily set up this style.

So a lot of people are like, hey, I wanna make my own home little ATG gym do all the knees over toes guy stuff. So working on everything for that. Tell me what all the pieces are. I mean, if you go from the ground up, you're pushing through the toes. So I make the backward treadmill and I make the backward treadmill, and I make a sled.

Oh, you make a sled now? Great! Yeah, so make a sled or a backward treadmill. Is the sled wheels or...? First model is the one that goes on turf. I see. Those are the two that I've used the most. And then you have the bar for strengthening the tibialis muscle, the tib bar. And then you have a slant board. A slant board is a very simple device

that can make it easy to stretch or strengthen around your lower body. So would you do squats on the slant board? Squats would be something you can do. Training the calf muscles the other way around would be something you can do. Like toe raises? Yeah, yeah, or even toe touches, but standing on the slant.

Most calf muscles are too tight just from the years of wearing regular shoes and the heels being lifted. It's almost like the modern calf is like an inch too tight just from the footwear. And then my personal favorite product, I call a mobility box because it makes it user-friendly to do those ATG split squats.

That's the one that for me is like, whether you're young or whether you're old, to me that's the heart of the program for me, is the ATG split squat. Like, but in a gym, like where's the mobility stuff? You walk into a gym, you usually have tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of machines and like a paper-thin yoga mat in the corner.

Mobility actually can be done a lot better like in a gym setting. So the Mobility Vox is my personal favorite. And what is that to explain what it is? It's like makes it really user friendly to raise the front foot anywhere from two to 24 inches with poles to bounce. Oh great.

Yeah, so like my mom, she would use a stairwell and do the ATH split squat. My dad just skipped it. Just skipped the ATH split squat my dad. Yep, just skipped it Yeah, just skipped the ATH because it just wasn't user-friendly Yeah, now they have that in the living room now He does it all the time loves it because it's user-friendly you can measure you can see your flexibility progress You can balance if you need you can take the balance off It's just it's very simple and then just more stuff like that

Like there's more mobility like I really think so many people want to be more mobile. Yeah. But then the machinery is not really set up for it. That's great that you're making all this stuff. Thank you. Fun to keep creating. Music