Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Daron Malakian - ON METAL (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 31, 2025

Composer, guitarist, vocalist, and record producer Daron Malakian, a founding member of System of a Down, returns to Tetragrammaton to  reflect on his lifelong relationship with heavy metal. Using music as a guide to discuss how different styles, sounds, and eras shaped his identity as an artist, he talks through what he listens for in metal, including riffs, mood, aggression, and atmosphere, and how those elements influenced his own songwriting and creative direction. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www.athleticnicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Tetragrammaton. You've got to start with a power cord, right? I don't know who invented the power cord, but you could think of, you know, you're really got me from the kinks, which was pretty heavy, I would think, for its time. Yeah, like, just that you could put into a heavy metal song or change the notes a little bit and make it darker, and that riff will become pretty fucking heavy. You had the Who that were breaking guitars, blowing stuff on stage, and their sound was massive. I always saw the Who as, like,

kind of like an example for Led Zeppelin of what a band should, even just the way it was like a great drummer, virtuoso, amazing bass player, guitar player that wrote the music, produced the records, songwriter. The presence of the vocalists kind of had a similar vibe too. So yeah, you know, you had the 60s bands. Dude, even you could say the Beatles in the song called I Want You, The end of that song, where it gets all doomy and... It's like dirge.

It's metal. It gives you the feeling of what Black Sabbath gives you without necessarily the same guitar tones or whatever, but the sound, the music, the darkness. So there were things that were happening before Black Sabbath, before Deep Purple, before Led Zeppelin. Was Inagata DeVita before? I'm not sure what year.

that was, but those are all considered psychedelic. Yeah, but it's heavy. It's heavy, but the heavy stuff came from the psychedelic, like that band High Tide, you know? The British band. Yeah, that was heavy, but that was before Sabbath. That was during the late 60s psychedelic era. And I think psychedelic music was moving into this direction.

It was certainly one of the flavors, because it was also like a folk flavor. It's like Led Zeppelin has really heavy songs, and then they have really folky songs. And it feels like they didn't invent that. That was kind of what was going on. Yeah, same with Sabbath. There is, Sabbath, I think, took things to a direction that, like, sometimes I think even a riff from a band can spark a whole genre, just that tiny moment. Do you want to play an example of a riff that inspires people?

Well, how about this one from Cream? Pretty dark. Get in a baby, get into my big, light car. It's like It's like heavy metal blues I want to just show you what my politics are I'm a political man, and I practice what I'll be.

I'm a political man, and I practice what I'm free. This could be a Sabbath song, for sure. I'm in baby, not while you're in marriage. I support the left, though I'm leaning to the right. Of the American blues men who created the genre, nothing sounded like that. You know, like, it definitely took it to a new extreme. And there was other things going on. Maybe they were inspired by somebody else.

I don't know. I mean, it's always tough to tell. But then you got Sabbath at some point. You know, you got all the... You feel like Sabbath is like the real beginning of metal? Yeah, I kind of do. More to me than Led Zeppelin. Because Led Zeppelin had moments of heaviness.

Their sound was heavy. The energy of harder rock was there. but Sabbath brought the doom. Also the lyrics. Yeah, Sabbath, the trip was dark. The name of the band. This Black Sabbath, just they brought in a feeling of vibe that to me was the sound of heavy metal. The blues and the jazz was still there, but that came in between.

the heavy riffs and the riffs with Sabbath weren't like for example we mentioned the band high tide but probably if you listen to the rest of their songs that was probably the only song that was heavy that was heavy Sabbath had the whole album was that vibe and then the next album was that vibe and the next album and it just you know that vibe continued it became a character of the sound of Sabbath it seems true of heavy metal bands in general that was the sound of those bands they may have one ballad but it was the exception

not the rule the rule was metal yeah and that's what I mean by like one song or one riff can take a band and someone who is listening to that would be like I want to write more songs that are like this yeah so like the kinks have you really got me

but that's not what all the kinks songs sound like no no so it's sparked those are the sparks Should we listen to You Really Got Me? Sure. It's heavy as fog. And for its time, it was probably shocking. Yeah.

And then, like, to tear the speaker, to get the distortion, you know, it's probably one of the first distorted guitar song. Oh, yeah, you're really got me home. They're coming so I can't see my head. You really got men. You really got men. See, don't ever set me. The riff makes you do what heavy metal makes you do,

which is like make a fist or like air guitar. Yeah, just something that makes your face get like, you know. Yeah, you want to participate. I think we should play that high tide song. Let's hear it. Once again, this is before Black Sabbath. Heavy is fought. Crazy.

It's like dirty sludge. Yeah, but once he starts singing, it gets dark. That's doom for doom metal. That's doom for sure. Well, there's a whole genre called Doom Metal. It sounds like this. And it's like this one. Turn around.

See me crying. Smell of burning flash, like the lyrics, metal. Yeah. I'm slowly to the bone when you're gone. We'll be quiet. But this was considered psychedelic music. There's no name heavy metal. And the name heavy metal came from the Steppenwolf song.

or heavy metal thunder heavy metal thunder just kind of like you know rock and roll came from like rock around the clock and there was a bunch of songs at one point in the late 40s early 50s that started using the word rock and that became the reason why people called it rock and roll And I would say even with other genres, as we'll get into as we're going, we're kind of named by songs or bands like death metal, black metal, these kinds of things. So as things start getting more extreme, you know, Sabbath, the song Black Sabbath, really heavy, slow, doomy. But this song, symptom of the universe, to me, was aggressive.

Like, you can mosh pit to this. song and there were no mosh pits yet but this riff is aggressive right you can fucking bang your head to this shit Take me through the centuries to super sonic years. Electifying enemy is running in his tears. All I have to give you is a love that never dies The symptom of the universe is written in your eyes Yeah

Yeah This takes things This takes things to another level of heaviness. This takes things to another level of heaviness. Unicon is waiting in the skies A symptom of the universe and love that never day Yeah Yeah

Led Zeppelin and all the other stuff, sure it was heavy, but this is heavy metal. Yeah, this is less bluesy. This song goes into a section that starts getting out jamming and bongos and stuff like that. We're like machine life. Very extreme metal for early 70s. There's no rock and roll in it. No.

Maybe the swing. Maybe. The backbeat, you know, but... Maybe. I mean, listen to how he's singing. That's a big part of it. Like, Ozzy's voice maybe is the... Maybe is the archetype heavy metal voice.

Yeah. The thing is, nobody else sounded like in... It's just the aggression. I think other people came and did aggression in their own style, but I mean, you have to, yeah, of course it has to be. It's a starting point. Like it gets more. Ha ha ha ha ha.

And now here it turns into... I mean, my band does stuff like that. Where do we go, right? Yeah, I mean, it's also really experimental. Yeah. The way the parts go together is not like regular song structure. It's much more free. There was like this jazzy element to some Black Sabbath parts.

in Bill Ward's drumming. We'll find happiness together. There was a looseness to it at some point. It wasn't just all riffs. You'd go into these sections where, like this one, this is not heavy metal, this goes back to the 60s in a way. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world.

Designing a website is easy, using one of Squarespace's best-in-class templates. With the built-in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins, and menus. So your design will be perfectly tailored to your needs. Discover unbreakable creativity with fluid engine, a highly intuitive drag-and-drop editor. No coding or technical experience is required. Understand your site's performance with in-depth website analytics tools. Squarespace has everything you need to succeed online. Create a blog.

Monetize a newsletter. Make a marketing portfolio. Launch an online store. store. The Squarespace app helps you run your business from anywhere. Track inventory and connect with customers while you're on the go. Whether you're just starting out or already managing a successful brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit Squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. Yeah, you had Deep Purple, but you also had other bands

like we were talking about, like Budgie. They were doing a heavy sound. Same time as Black Sabbath? Early 70s. I mean, yeah, you could say. Here's a song that Metallica later covered from them. Metallica actually covered a couple of budgie songs. Sounds like

They covered this But stylistically The original song Sound like this too Especially like early First album Yeah Ozzy's vocals.

Yeah. My wife is driving me insane, insane. Yeah, yeah So yeah, there was stuff like this. Bands that are kind of like un-sung-sung heroes at the time at the time. Like, you know, Zeppelin, Sabbath. Zeppelin, Sabbath, Deep Purple, they get a lot of the glory and they get a lot of the attention, but there were other bands. So, you know, you had all the early 70s stuff. You know, here's a deep purple fireball.

Double bass, which also became something later on in heavy metal. Go to light above you, show me where you're from. Magic in your heartbeat when she's all you gazed upon. Stand up on your head and they'll be by far around you. I wonder where you're from, oh yeah, they wonder where I found you. All my love it took long way Where are you from? It turned a long way I tried to understand you, try to love you right

And when you smile to touch me oh but since my heart of light You're left till like a fire why I'm burning from my soul People ask me where you're from they really want to know All my soul, it's a long way. Where you're from, it's a long way. All that, as much as Ozzy was an influence, Ian Gillen, there's a lot of people started doing that towards the late 70s, early 80s. Also, Ian Gillian and Black Sabbath was great, too.

Yeah, born again. Some people don't like that record, but I love it. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I love that record. And I love Sabbath with Dio as well. Dio is really different than the others. To me, it turns into more like mythical. Well, his lyrics, his vibe. There's another dude that isn't from England that probably should be mentioned or a band. Have you ever heard of Sir Lord Baltimore? I've heard his name, but I never listen to the music. They kind of get a little credit for being heavy before there was heavy. It's heavy.

From the U.S., though, from the East Coast. Woman, you are the master heartache. Woman, you are the master heartache. I know it's evil in the wake of a wicked wind. Lightness caught me in the storm of sin. Woman, oh, you are the master heartache. Woman, you are the master heartache. Let it be the damn that death of every girl's heartache.

You lift me to the rain and cast me in the sea of my brain. Woman, you are the master heartache. It's moovier than pretty much everything else we listen to. Yeah, they're from the U.S. You know, there's probably a difference in influences and, you know. You sometimes hear when a band is from a certain place, like you hear the place, you hear that there's a difference in sound. The L.A. glam sound compared to what the Seattle sound was, like, you would hear different genres come out of different parts of the world, and you would hear that part of the world in that genre, you know?

I don't think any of the bands that we've listened to yet when they formed formed as heavy metal bands. There was no word heavy. such thing yet yeah i mean some people call my band new metal but i remember when we were doing it there was no such thing as that i mean i don't really consider us newman i think we came out of that genre i think it was just the time we were around i think there's things about our music that might be there but when it's happening i'm sure the bands in seattle weren't calling themselves grunge no it's the press happens after yeah the press starts

has to put a label on it in some way so when did heavy metal start I don't know I wasn't around at this time we're gonna move into a direction where I was actually alive I wasn't alive yeah during all this stuff you gotta mention kiss yeah rock and roll night party every day

but the energy the look spikes black and silver the theatrics because theatrics is a part of a lot of metal as well what would be a kiss song that would be representative of their metal side i always thought parasite was kind of heavy let's hear that She'd always be the trying to travel home She thought she knew that but she didn't know That I was sad and wanted her to call

Paraside lady Paraside eyes Parasite lady no need to cry It's the image of the demon, the fire breathing, the blood that was huge to the kids that grew up with that and then started bands was huge for me. I mean, I was three years old, three or four years old when I first saw a kiss. It scared the shit out of me.

But you liked it. But it just, I was just obsessed with it. I couldn't stop looking at it. Never heard a song yet even at that point. I just had just the image. Just the image, just seeing them. Maybe Kiss's music wasn't as heavy as what Black Sabbath was doing, but Black Sabbath didn't look like Kiss.

Kiss's image with Black Sabbath's music together. Matched. Yeah. Matched. And that's what brought forth the next wave of heavy metal. Which people call the new wave of British heavy metal, which started happening mid to late 70s into the 80s. What bands would those be, do you know?

Well, you know, you could start with bands like UFO, but they were still kind of in the mid-70s, you could say. Then Judas Priest. Did Judas Priest start in the 70s? I think so. Judas Priest was pretty early on, but then their changes happened through their sound in the early days. It started becoming the blues,

the jazzy elements that the earlier bands had, these bands kind of didn't have that. A band like UFO had a great guitar player. The early couple records were kind of more psychedelic, but then you get into, say, a song like this one. You hear that You hear that gallopsy kind of thing There's a little blood I'm not done

Maybe now your time is cold You hear that Gallupy kind of thing There's a little Led Zeppelin in that There's a rum bed Smell of an archie No more nice style That gallop-y-shy shine high in the sky dreams.

That gallop-y thing became a very iron maiden thing. Well, I'm tight till the end. Better now you know we'll never wait till tomorrow. So bands like this, and I'm coming on my love. So bands like this, and I'm gonna give the Scorpion some love. That's the way it goes. Brightly thoughts once been tall, and now it shows. Heavy metal kind of wave song like The Sails of Cheron.

So those are all English bands we were talking about. These guys came from Germany. Scorpions had really metal album covers. Yeah, if you would play this, I wouldn't be surprised. Wow I love the Scorpion I can see Oh you hear it in my info

Yeah but I never heard them before It's very interesting You're really interesting knows this original. Dark night! There is no light in the realm of the black magic man. Soul's flight into the cold flight of the destroyer's magic land. Old man who's spirits are stronger than the water will rain kills the planet in place. Blind man, you're sucking your own blood to Blackmagic's dying.

You'd better start crying. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Also has, like, an operatic vibe, vocally. Yeah, and kind of Arabic, kind of guitar. and stuff. So their sound kind of changed as it went on into the 80s. It became a little bit more poppy. They're known for like their rock ballads, which I love rock ballads and Scorpions did some of the best rock ballads. You know bands like Thin Lizzie. Strange kind of man to call it voodoo

You won't that woman? Yes you do Believe me, babe, I know it's true Come on, sugar, let me give it to you This dual guitar thing they did A harmonies Very influential With bands to come like Judas Priest

Iron Maiden, these dual guitar solos. Thin Lizzie, I think, was one of the first. Come on, I'll lose control. I want your body, not your soul. Come on, baby, take my jet. Still not metal. None of these bands, I don't think we would have called metal yet. I don't think they would have called themselves metal. Exactly.

But the kids that were listening to them or the teenagers that were listening to them that were about to be 18, 19, 19, 20 years old, and start bands themselves. The next set of bands. Yeah. Going into the late 70s, new wave of British heavy metal bands like, Judas Priest, you would say, we're starting to take the blues out and then the imagery as well. Judas Priest also, I think, had a lot to do with the look of metal, with the spikes and the stuff. What kissed it at first, but they kind of made it their trip and they weren't wearing makeup.

They weren't playing monsters. They were playing themselves. Yeah. But they dressed like that. Yeah. And a lot of that spike and stuff came out of the BD. SM kind of imagery and that that's kind of where that came from so kiss and judas priest i would say had a lot to do with that heavy metal spikes black leather towards the late 70s early 80s and

here's a judas priest song called hell bent her leather Stranglehold again. Hey Ted Nugent had probably sounded you with this too. Yeah, see him on the highway, never known that he'll appear. I'll wait and just kick an over, hear the roar as they sent to the fear. double-kick. Acute of steel and a flesh of light. Screams from a streak of fire as he strikes.

Help-bent, help, and paleta. Help-bent, help, and for leather. There's an emotion that heavy metal gives you, which is that fist in the air, makes your face change into mean, grim face. It does to me at least. I can't help myself sometimes. Crush one by one to the ground. Help it, hell bent for leather.

Help it, help it for ever. There's many who tried to prove that they're faster, but they didn't last and they died as they tried. People tried People tried to prove that they did last but they did last and they died to prove that they died as they died as they Are they the first band that we've listened to that had two guitar players? Finn Lizzie did. That's definitely a difference.

Dual guitar playing, dual solos. Yeah, trading off solos. Trading off. It became a thing. L-M-N-T, Element Electrolites. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best? Add element electrolytes to your daily routine.

Perform better and sleep deeper. Improve your cognitive function. Experience an increase in steady energy with fewer headaches and fewer muscle cramps. Element electrolytes. Drink it in the sauna. Refreshing flavors include grapefruit, citrus, watermelon, and chocolate salt. Formulated with the perfect balance of sodium, potassium, and magnesium to keep you hydrated and energized throughout the day. These minerals help conduct the electricity that powers your nervous system so you can perform at your very best.

Element electrolytes are sugar-free, keto-friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit Drink L-M-N-T. dot com slash tetra and stay salty with element electrolyte L Mn T.T so we're at the new wave of British heavy metal late 70s early 80s I start remembering at this time of my life remembering the older kids at my school when I was elementary school, the shirts they used to wear. It was just all like, wow to me, man. Like black t-shirts with bands on them? Band shirts at the time, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Ozzy. You know,

Ozzy had separated from Black Sabbath at that point. I mean, early Aussie solo stuff, you can't deny. Randy Rhodes guitar playing. I remember going to the record store with my mom and seeing the album cover for Speak of the Devil, which is a lie. album but it's Ozzy and he has his mouth open he has this shit in his fucking mouth

I don't know it's like jelly or something but at the time it was like oh Ozzy used to bite heads off bats and all that stuff

so you would think oh is that the head of the bat in my head as a kid and I don't know man as a kid I was really young man I was like five years old

but I was like really into the shit like to the point where my mom should have maybe been concerned you know but I was just really, really into this shit. And so we're

also getting to the point where people are starting to accuse these bands of being devil worshippers. Oh, yeah. Which was also something that was appealing to me as a five-year-old. But I'm sure as like kids

that were 10, 11, 11, 12, 13, 40, whatever, I'm sure that was also something that was dangerous. But do you think it was about the danger of it? It wasn't about actually worshipping the devil. It was more like, it was this scary thing taboo yeah and it embraced the dark side that everybody has some aspect of in them it wasn't hiding it away it was celebrating the dark side and you were like

are they were they there's something like kind of you know how wrestling has k-fabe it's there's something kind of k-fabe heavy metal and pro wrestling kind of work in the same way where there's definitely a theatrical element to heavy metal. Yeah. Like, you know, the kiss, the demon, what is, is this guy really, he lives like this? Is this really his life? Does he walk around the street like this? You know, we didn't have the internet back then.

We didn't have social media where everybody sees the person's life and what they are off stage. And, you know, in my head, Ozzy was like this, wow, dude, this guy was like not even from this planet. The fantasy aspect of it appealed to you. It did. Almost like their cartoon characters. Yeah, yeah.

Like, I imagined what they were like. Like, this person is really like this all the time, you know, or is this? I never even thought about, like, oh, they're not like this. It was, I was very young, so in my head, they were fucking cartoon. I was still watching cartoons at this time in my life. You know, I would take my mom to the record store, and the band started playing into the satanic thing. And Iron Maiden had Eddie, you know. know the mascot. It was always like these evil album covers. It was like a horror movie. Eddie

would be like a horror movie character. Kind of. Yeah, but I always wanted to get those albums, but I knew if I took those albums to my mom, she wouldn't buy them for me. So I would like try to go to this safer like, you know, deaf leopard pyromania. I didn't have that on there. It was at a building burning. But I had my way of getting those albums to me through like an older cousin or whatever, they would record them on a cassette that didn't have the album, so I still get to listen to like, Dio Holy Diver, because the album cover for that

is like the devil has this priest in the chains and, you know, so there's, you know, there's two singers in Iron Maiden, Paul Deano and Bruce Dickinson. How low was Paul Deano? Just two albums. First two albums. First two albums.

And I was going to play a song from those records because if we're talking, Talking about the evolution and the new wave of British metal, this was the beginning of it, yeah, Judas Priest, but early Iron Maiden, I would consider, and later Iron Maiden, but it wasn't the new wave after that. This was kind of the new wave coming. So the first singer is more like in line with the Judas Priest era of new metal.

Not necessarily, but I'll let you hear it. play i'll play killers which is the title track off their second album Oh, yeah! That gallop is signature to Iron Maiden sound. You walk for you somewhere, dumper-dum-pudder-dum-pud-dum-pud-a-dum-pick. A footstep behind you, he landed prepared for attack. Scream for mercy, he lost as he's watching to bleed. Killer, behind you, he's bloodlust, and father he's knee.

Two guitar players as well? Yes. Actors, and now they have three. A mocking religion of hatred that burned in the night I have no one about to destroy all its greed A voice inside me Compalting to satisfy me Dual guitar playing

And then the bass playing is very specific to Iron Maiden as well. I mean, Steve Harris is pretty much to, like, the main writer in the band. The bass play. Yeah. What are you not hearing, though? Blues. No blues, no rock. No.

It feels almost more a little related to, like, classical music. Yes. It starts going more into that. The drama of like Boggner, you know? Yeah. Solo's a little bluesy. But that's what guitar players did it at that time. But the riffs are not musy at all.

And there's nothing about the groove that's bluesy. It's very Germanic. Germanic. Germanic? Germanic? Yeah. I'm playing this era of Iron Maiden because this was very raw. This was their beginning.

It's just the dirtier version of Iron Maiden. Still late 70s? This starts getting into the early 80s. The death call of Rides and scream breaks are still out the night. Here's another song from Iron Maiden. Maiden called Phantom of the Opera. This is the album before Killers. This is the first Iron Maiden record, self-titled.

It's amazing. Undeniable. So influential. Nobody was really doing this. This was as heavy, I think, as it got at this point of metal in the 80s. And it's very straight. It's not psychedelic.

No, there's none of that. There's no blues. No. No psychedelic. It's aggressive, but very musical. Yeah. I mean, I learned how to play my guitar playing these songs. I mean, I learned how to play my guitar playing these songs, in my room just trying to learn them,

you know? Would you play along? Yeah. Another thing about Iron Maiden, Another thing about Iron Maiden, different parts, long songs. This one is like a seven-minute song out. And it goes from parts of where it keeps you interested. It's music that should be sat down and listened to it.

It's not a pop song. You don't dance to it. You could. You know, heavy metal has its dances too, man. Mosh pit, headbanging, that's the heavy metal dance. Probably head banging before the... Because I think the mosh pit came from hardcore and punk. But just banging your head is the feeling you get when you're feeling this heavy emotion.

It feels right. A lot of things, Things are happening all at the same time that are making things what they are a year later, two years later. While all this is happening with the new wave of British heavy metal bands, you have punk rock. And I think it's somewhat meshing together somewhere in the late 70s. Yeah, because the kids probably listen to both of those. I know I did. I listened to punk rock and heavy metal at the same time.

And then when you started hearing, like, probably Metallica was one of the first where it felt like this was different than what came before it. I mean, you would, motorhead. Oh, motorheads in a class by themselves. Yeah. I love motorhead. So. I never thought of them as a descendant of punk rock, though.

The punks love motorhead. Yeah. But it felt like they were motorhead in spite of what anyone else was doing. Yeah, it was really aggressive rock and roll in a way. Yeah, like hard biker rock. Yeah, and let's be loud and let's be fast. Here's another band that Metallica covered called Diamond Head. You know, Metallica is a very influential band, obviously.

But these are bands that influenced Metallica. Just like we're talking about bands that might influence Black Sabbath. These are bands that probably influenced Metallica and Slayer, you know, all the early thrash stuff but there was no thrash yet so this is am i evil metallica made famous a lot of people didn't even know that it was a cover until you know that like this is the band called diamond head And this rhythm goes back to Jeff Beck. Yeah. We're going to be.

I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I don't know. Oh, Yeah, and I'm I'm not

I'm not I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm We're going to be able to be. My mother was a wits

She was been alive Backless little bitch For the tears I cried Take her down now Don't want to see her face Blister and bird Can't happen this face 27

Every one was nice Gotta see to make them pay the prize She their bodies out on the eyes Take my time Am I evil Yes I am Am I evil I am man

Yes I am In the break between the two heavy parts of the song, there's a tapping guitar part. Yeah. Did Eddie Van Halen invent that, or were other people already doing it? Other people did it before Eddie Van Halen, but Eddie Van Halen made it his thing. No one had done it like he had done it. Nobody had done it like he had done it. You know, and once again, guitar players, Randy Rhodes, Eddie Van Halen,

Ingvee Malmsteen, these guys all. all shaped how heavy metal guitar players. You know, before there was Jimmy Page and there was all those dudes from, you know. More rooted in the blues, really. These guys were more rooted in like neoclassical. That kind of also pushed the blues a little bit out of the guitar soloing. Because we just heard the early Iron Maiden stuff. But as you go into deeper Iron Maiden, you'll hear less of that.

bluesy stuff and it gets to be a little bit more minors and neoclassical types of vibes so singers influential guitar players that were influential drummers who played more aggressively as time went on double kick started coming into the situation more I'd say faster double kick started probably coming into the situation in the early to mid-80s with Slayer, you know. But that was really different than what like John Bonham or Keith Moon were doing, who were incredible at what they did. Yeah. But this was a different kind of great new drumming.

Those dudes were still, you could hear the jazz, you could hear, which later on will come back in metal in some way, the jazz fusion drumming, but in the. early 80s I would say it was just this stiff kind of heavy beat solid keep things solid in the 80s was also when drum machines were getting popular yeah also when disco was kind of in the air so like the idea of the heavy straight beat was kind of everywhere from drum machines and from disco yeah metal doesn't sound like disco but it is as hypnotic straight it's not loose yeah it's not like improvisational yeah here's another band i really like this i like this song it's a band called

holocaust a song's called death or glory i just feel like around when same early 80s kind of time you could say influenced heavier bands to come but wasn't necessarily that just yet Fucking heavy I guess I'm going nowhere Pressed off with life Don't want no girls to hold me Oh to love my night Where's night

I'm out of my whole History There's fall off of my mind No date of authority They know I'm not all bad I know that nobody loves me Don't make me sad Gonna stand up to the ones

to bring me down I've got foot off on my mind I can't feel it now For the early years, For the early 80s For in every way For the early 80s

It's made you bang your head In a In a world of artificial high as and harsh stimulants, there is something different, something clean, something precise. Athletic nicotine, not the primitive products found behind convenience store counters, not the aggressive buzz that leaves you jittery, but a careful calibration of clean energy and focused clarity. Athletic nicotine, the lowest dose tobacco-free nicotine available, made entirely in the USA.

No artificial sweetness, just pure, purposeful elevation. Athletic nicotine is a performance neutropic. Athletic nicotine is a tool for shifting mindsets. Athletic nicotine is a partner in pursuit of excellence. Slow release, low dose, gradual lift, sustained energy, soft landing, inspired results. Athletic nicotine, more focus, less static. Athletic nicotine, more clarity, less noise, athletic nicotine, more accuracy, less anxiety, athletic nicotine, from top athletes pushing their limits to artists pursuing their vision.

Athletic nicotine offers the lift you've been looking for. Learn more at athletic nicotine.com slash tetra and experience next level performance with athletic nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. When you were a kid, did the other kids in your school all listen to heavy metal, or was it unusual music? Some older kids I would see that weren't my friends, I would just see that they wore these shirts and stuff like that. My surrounding people, like my cousins that were like older cousins of mine, they hated heavy friends. I didn't really have anybody that was. I don't know what it is about this music that was just, I was just drawn to it.

What sparked it was just I walked into a distant older. People that aren't really like that closely related to me, went to their house and they were teenagers. I was three or four years old. Open the door and I saw kiss all over their walls. As I got older, it was just something, you know, my mom would go to the grocery store and I would be at the magazine stand and I would be looking at all the heavy metal. magazines and not really reading them, just looking at the pictures, you know?

The funny thing is she'd always say, as long as it doesn't influence you too much. Right. It seems like it influenced you just right. Yeah, right. Worked out. You know, she's happy now. Look, I'm into a lot of different kinds of music. You know that.

You and I always exchange, you know, send each other stuff. It's usually psychedelic music or world music. I mean, it's all over the board. Just like you, I have like a pretty broad taste, but heavy metal was my first spark, my first love, my first thing that put me in my direction. You could say my roots. And you'd play along with those records to get started growing up, yeah. Even though there was, I could say I love disco at the same time that I love this stuff too.

Obviously, if you listen to my band, you hear more than heavy metal. For sure. And that's why some people will be like, well, why is Darren? talking about like extreme metal because he's not in an extreme metal band but i grew up with this kind of me i grew up with extreme metal by the time i formed my own band i wanted to do something original i don't want to copy the bands of course you know came before but i was very influenced by yeah can't help but be yeah everything that we're playing and stuff we haven't played yet are all things that someone as a fan of heavy metal we're talking about like the evolution of heavy metal

but was also my evolution with heavy metal at the time that it was happening. Yeah, you grew up with this music. So get to some of the stuff that starts getting a little bit heavier in the early 80s, which is Merciful Fate. I realize that King Diamond is not for everybody. Because there are even metal heads. They're like, I don't know, I can't get into it.

I can't get into the voice, whatever. I love King Diamond. And I love merciful fate. Yes. Black funeral. Yes, he'll be able to Lay down the floor Then he would blow

With the black funeral She was a victim Heavy as shit for that Heavy as shit for that time. now I'm playing King Diamond on tetragrams. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Yes hail Satan now drink and now drink drink

forget that whole Black Gilmore Tell me the story. What do you know about him? They're from Denmark, I don't know much about the history about why he started singing like that. I think I think Ian Gillen was kind of an influence. on him, but he just, like, did Ian Gill in the whole time?

Maybe D-O-2 a little bit? Maybe. They were around in the late 70s, but kind of this album, and they have a few albums, but, like, the two classic ones are the first two. And then King Diamond went solo. King Diamond went solo. Merciful Fate has more of, like, a raw sound. It's kind of like if you compare early Iron Maiden to later Iron Maiden, it became a little bit more polished. Merciful Fate

has a little bit more of that raw late 70s, early 80s production, sound, the riffs. King Diamond stuff became I'd say you could say even more theatrical. The whole album

had a theme like them was the whole album was like a story. But his style and I get it, some people don't get it. But it's signature though. He goes from hi to girl and it's just kind of like how do you what made him like I don't know how do you come up with singing like this it's very unique there is nobody before him or after him

it's just him that does this with the different voices and the different harmonies and the over the top high hitch thing and then the makeup like in merciful faith there was like five dudes The rest of them just looked like regular heavy metal dudes, and then there was him with the makeup. And going back to satanic k-fabe, the other people, you were kind of like, maybe, maybe not, but this guy kind of convinced you that he was.

And the way he talked and the way he explained it and these interviews and stuff like that made you think, oh, this guy's really a devil worship or this guy's really satanic, which gave him this extra street cred. kind of credibility that made it convincing. And I think he has those beliefs to some... I have no idea.

Degrade. It always sounded to me like a theater kid doing heavy metal like as an act. That's what sort of turned me off about it was it was theatrical to the point of parody. If I remember correctly, I probably didn't like it the first time I heard it, which was not Merciful Fate for me. It was King Diamond solo. But then I didn't like Slayer the first time I heard it. Wow. Because remember, I'm growing up with this kind of vocal. Yes. Iron Maiden, Dio, Ozzy Osbourne kind of vocal. When I first heard the vocals in Slayer, it was something that was brand new to me. But then I gave it another shot and it became like my favorite band. When it's so different, the first reaction is not for me. Most of all my favorite music I didn't like when I've heard. heard it. It's too much. Yeah. But then when you

realize, I remember laughing at the Ramones when I heard it was ridiculous. Why would anybody play that fast? It's like tasting a food for the first time. It might not have any point of reference. Yeah, you don't have any reference and it's kind of like you don't recognize it. But then you try it again and it's like for that next month you're eating

that food and you know, it becomes your favorite food. Yeah. Okay, what would be a good example of King Diamond as a solo artist? For me, it was, I love the album, Them. How old are you, you think, when it came out? Them, 1988, I was 13 years old.

This song is called Welcome Home. When I'm wrong, you have been gone, I want to know Are this a dream? Are you really need that? Let me help you, I was not scared Look at the drama Let me talk to you, let me feel

Take me love When do you think of the house And there's still every move We're going to recreate The Frondo song Listen to how many voices he does Let me help you Out of the cheer

Look at Grandma Let me touch you Let me feel This was kind of a big song. We just come on Headbanger's Ball and stuff. Really? Yeah, yeah. This was, I'd say, the breakthrough song for his solo career.

There was an album before this or two, solo. So, you know, there's bands around this time, remember a band called Metal Church? People that were metalheads at that time were into Metal Church. Metal Church fucking was relevant. It's a band that's not talked about as much now, but at the time, we would look forward to the new Metal Church album, you know, as Young Metal Heads. This song's called Metal Church, subtitled, off the first album. You hear the Black Sabbath influence.

You hear the Black Sabbath, but you don't hear no blues. You don't hear no jazz. Many, many years ago, on a distant shore, many years ago on a distant shore, many together secretly beyond the heaven core. Like to the night Yes, just the place they've chosen To be on the middle side And this

Judas Priest, Maiden, All that stuff was the heavy stuff Now we're getting into the mid-80s And this was happening around the same time as Slayer and Metallica Was there a name for this genre? Some people would call it power metal. Power metal.

It definitely sounds like an escalation on what came before. Yes, and it is. You can hear it. It's a fucking It's a fucking Yeah, it's a fucking mean rift. The riff is... The riff, but not the beat.

Yeah. And not the vocals. Yeah. Vocals are more like traditional metal. yes so during this mid 80s time the metal was getting kind of more aggressive because while we're listening to this metallic is putting out you know kill them all and master puppets

and slayers putting out show no mercy and hello eights and rain and blood and all that stuff things were kind of getting more aggressive and faster But then there was bands that were kind of taking it back to the Black Sabbath thing and doing like a more doom metal thing, like a band like Candleman's in this song called Demon's Gate. An ancient catholic surrounded by head. Stare I was between a handle like...

Theatrix. I went into the demon's date. These guys kind of slowed it down while everyone else was going faster. I believe they're from Sweden. Thank you. So this is considered doom metal. Feels related to Prague rock, but much darker. Yes.

The sticks among the myths of Hades The gate of stone marks the bar To solace that the nation And here to the war The trip is you hear more Ian Gillen in vocals As time goes on than you do Aussie in some ways Those high-pitched Ian Gillen things Kind of stuck around with a lot of band

through the years and they built on it or it just became like the head top kind of thing. It's another band you could say that was doing this another band you could say that was doing this at this time when other bands were doing other things was a band that I think you worked with called Trouble. Early Trouble had doom elements and more bands came and started

a sub-genre started through this stoner metal, some people like to call it. Also, more of these bands, the splintering after the Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, it started getting more independent. Like Iron Maiden and Judas

There's priests were on major labels. Yeah. You saw them at an arena when they came to play. These other bands were more like... Roadrunner, Metal Blade. Like independent labels, and it was almost more of a punk rock aesthetic, even though it was metal. It was underground. It was underground.

A lot of these bands, I would either find because I liked the album cover or the guy at the record store knew what I liked, and he would be like, check this out. It wasn't from mass marketing or MTV or MTV. Oh, Headbangers Ball. At that time, you would find some bands that would play on Headbangers Ball that would only be played like after midnight on Headbanger's Ball, though it wasn't in the regular rotation of MTV. At that time, the regular rotation of MTV was like the glam bands.

Goods and Roses. Yeah, the hair bands, Maltley Crew. Look, man, early Maltly Crew is, you could say, very influential, too, or like Shout of the Devil era Maltly Crew. There was some heaviness to that. It wasn't all

bubble gum. It wasn't, you know, there was the riffs were heavy. The imagery was satanic and kind of dark. I remember when I was a kid, I had the Maltly Crew cassette, and in the back of the cassette, it had written, if you play this record backwards, it plays Satan. I don't know, it plays

backward message. It's, they purpose wrote that because they wanted, you know, once again, satanic k-fabe. So, you know, as a 7, 8-year-old kid, I was like, oh, wow, this is something that, you know, I got to hide from my mom. I don't want her to read that, you know. At this same time, though, you had more aggressive stuff that was a precursor to. to thrash what would be an example of that i wouldn't consider discharge a heavy metal band but discharge definitely played influenced influenced thrash music so a song like this came out in

the early 80s discharge drunk with power For how long to iterate this foots of the power? Drunk with power, I'm just with death, death and destruction with power. We're trying to give a chest and play With you and I, I see my spot more pieces It's really, death, death and they're going to drive off. It's really, really heavy for that time, man. Like you would sit there and think,

how are they doing this while all these other bands are doing that? It's less music, it's more assault. It's a repetitive rift. It's mesmerizing in some ways. It just stays the same. Every song he has the same vocal approach. It's a lot of the same vibe. This takes like the Ramones and all the,

but like takes it to this other place. Such an original band. It baffles me on like, How are they doing this at this time? They formed in the late 70s. And this was probably early 80s. If you, like, heard this at that time, you would be like, what is this? Still now it sounds insane.

Yeah, it's aggressive. Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob! Bands Like the Bad Brains and Discharge definitely took it to a whole new level. Of intensity. Yes. And speed. That is still feels intense now.

You know, you had these bands coming out in the early 80s that were not necessarily metal. But the same metal kids might hear those, and it might be one of the influences. For sure on Slayer, there was. There was the influence of, in addition to Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, clearly the extreme punk rock was part of the... Well, they were fusing this with Iron Maiden Judas Priest's Merciful Fate, and they were fusing the music and the riffs of that, but the intensity of this. But for me, you know, in punk rock you have MC5 and the Stooges, right?

you could say are like the precursors to the Ramones and all that stuff in extreme metal world for me sure discharge was a player in that but you can't deny motorhead Heaviest fog, man. Speed. Because he was all speed, sir. Like, like to see. There's been a while in front of me. Scared the headless up on me.

Scared to move but you can't see. You know me. Even a ride. You know me. They better to die. You know me. You can put. discharge in this you would like build them on the same gig and and it would make sense the intensity of it was there even though they probably wouldn't consider themselves in the same genre or whatever but it's the vocals he's not singing he's got this same like the discharge guy

Show me, you can't dismisses, devil's myth, you're pissed. I think at the time, metal and punk people, like the metal kids didn't really listen to punk and the punk kids didn't really listen to metal, but there was some bands that they could agree on, and Motorhead was one of them. Everyone liked Motorhead. Yeah. Most people in metal, if they knew about them, loved them. But they were a little more underground than the above ground metal stuff. Yeah. Like we said, MC5 and the Stooges, Motorhead and Venom. Venom is a big deal in extreme music, influential on thrash, influential on black metal. They named Black Metal. The album was called Black Metal. Really? And the vocals of Venom, I remember Tom's brother, John, was my guitar tech for a long time.

And he would tell me that when Slayer started, they wanted to hear Tom sing more like Venom. Wow. And you hear it in early Slayer, Show No Mercy era, really. You hear a lot of that Venom in Slayer. but this is a song called black metal by then and also the production the speed Uncensuous mood Energy scream There's magic in dreams

Satan records their best notes We time the film Chaos in hell wrestled for media's pure Fast melting steel Porned on wheels Brain hammer urges the cure For black metal

Black metal Black metal we're considered the first wave of black metal because black metal has another act coming in the early 90s which is my favorite part of our story ever I love black metal music you could say black metal music got its name from that song but if you want to hear how it's influence on Slayer

Let's get a very well-been, a Venom song. The same kind of beat, right? Black metal. Blackbeat. Last ain't our way through the boundaries of hell. No one can stop us tonight. We take our new hell with hatred and style. May have the reason we fight

Surviving the slaughter To kill is we've lost Then we return from the dead Attacking one more now We're twice as the street We can't move on ahead Evo My world's get fired

And now this guy We'll take your soul EO My wrath of foe But you can hear how this came from Venom The thing that this has that Venom doesn't is Dave Lombardo. Yeah. The thing about Dave Lombardo is no matter how fast it gets, it's always groovy.

Yeah. It never sounds like it's always swinging. I got a chance to once jam with Dave. And could you feel it? Dave is a different kind of drummer, man. Totally different. You can play one rill. and Dave will change what he's playing and he will change your riff.

The story with that is we were playing the whiskey once. Dave was in our mosh pit. So cool. And we had never met him before. And we were just playing and I kind of was like, dude, that's Dave Lombardo in the fucking mosh pit. And I was like, oh, we have to meet him. We met him afterwards. And my first thing was like, dude, you got to come to our...

I was like, I got to play with Dave Lombardo. Lombardo. Yeah. And he came, he came to our studio, like a week later or something like that. I don't know if he remembers this, but I do. It was great. I'm sure he does. And we didn't, it wasn't even like, at first we were playing songs, or I was just like

riffing, just jamming, just free jamming, which a lot of metal guys can't do, you know. And he just free jam, and it was just like going from one thing to another. But one thing I noticed was like, I could just sit there and play a riff. and this guy was changing the things he was playing, and I didn't have to change anything, but he was just changing the vibe of the riff. Yeah, it made like the riff into three parts without changing the riff.

Yeah, without doing anything. So the hype on Dave is definitely well deserved. For me, it's like that feel of it's groovy. And most drummers, the faster you get, the less groovy it gets. It gets more stiff, more straight. Yeah. But Dave's always swinging at any tempo.

He's special. He's a special drummer. I always felt like that's what separated Slayer from all the other speed metal bands was just the way Dave played. I love, obviously, the songwriting in Slayer regardless, but the feel of it was always what drew me energetically to Slayer.

Yeah, his fills, the fills that he would play on later albums, like that was kind of very straightforward, raw Slayer. I'm kind of playing these albums from these bands that some of these bands changed along the way but I'm playing their early versions of this band like I just played that

song from Slayer because I wanted to set that song up with the Venom. Yeah so you see the connection so you can yeah so you can see the connection of how Venom inspired that yes so I see Venom being an influence on Slayer when I hear that sound but then I

hear motorhead being a key influence for Metallica and making that motorhead drive with more of the metal kind of riffs and early Metallica well motor breath you can't fuck with early Metallica I mean it is what it is Motorhead drive, you know? Living and dying, laughing and crying. Love to L.C. It will never be the same. Life isn't a fastling, just how it's deep.

Hard and dairy and me. in my life I can't take it any other way Most I'm wrap, sign up to be bad It's going to take your breath away Getting your feet away Don't stop for nothing I'm taking down your world is in my way Getting your feet and shooting the line

I'm sending the tables to burn down my spines. Moose of breath, sour, I can't take it in any other way. Moose of breath, son of living fast. This is going to take a breath away. I mean, what is this, 82, 83? Heavy as clock. Anyone who heard this for the first time at that time was blown away. away, or it was too heavy for them.

Like some people wouldn't get it because it's too fast, too crazy. What I hear different about that than Motorhead, let's say, is there's a technical proficiency. Yes. With Motorhead, it's superpower slur. Yeah, distorted bass. Yeah, but James is strumming. strumming, really. Tight.

It's so tight, and that's very different than whatever punk rock roots they might have. Yeah. Punk rock really sounds technically tight. It's just a different thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the skipping also, it's like

it's not just straight, fast. It's... It's not open chords either. It's muted guitars. People call the genre junct, which I don't really like that. Junt? Junt, because the guitar goes junt. It's like a whole...

things that's after my time to be honest like it's junk metal yeah younger younger metal heads have like you know bands they call jint but uh it's got the jint but you also have to think of the guitar tone was more of um compressed kind of guitar tone it wasn't your regular it's more percussive really yeah yeah it's not that rock tone anymore that starts becoming the heavy metal tone so when you mute your guitars there's just like bass behind it there's this tightness behind it you start seeing that at this time

do you remember when you first heard Metallica I remember exactly where I was but I didn't know that it was Metallica some kids in a parking lot when we were on a trip to Lake Arrowhead and I heard faster

faster in my head out of their car coming up and I was like into metal but I was like what is this song Faster, faster. I didn't know they were saying master, master. And then it wasn't until I ran into the cassette and accidentally played the song.

And I was like, oh, my God, it's that faster, faster. But there's like, Master, Master. Tetragramatin is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammatin is a whole world of knowledge. within the sphere of tetragrammatine. Counterculture, tetragrammatian, sacred geometry, tetragrammatin, the Avant Garde, tetragrammatine, generative art, tetragrammatin, the tarot, tetragrammatin, out-of-print music, tetragrammatin,

biodynamic, tetragrammatin, graphic design, tetragrammatin, mythology and magic, tetragrammatine, obscure film, tetragrammatin, beach culture, tetragrammatin, esoteric lectures, Tetragrammatine. Off the grid living. Tetragrammatine. Alt. Spirituality. Tetragrammatin, the canon of fine objects. Tetragrammatin. Muscle cars. Tetragrammatin. Ancient wisdom for a new age. Upon entering, experience the artwork of the day. Take a breath and see where you are drawn. com.