Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Jack Harlow

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Rapping since he was 12, early Jack Harlow mixtapes were the talk of his Louisville, Kentucky grade school. Not long after, he became a household name. Jack’s meteoric rise began with the release of his 2020 single, Whats Poppin.  Then came the platinum debut studio album, Thats What They All Say (2020) The second album from Jack, Come Home the Kids Miss You (2022) included the lead single Nail Tech and the chart-topping single First Class. His third album Jackman was recently released on April 28, 2023. In 2023 Jack Harlow made his acting debut in the HULU remake of the beloved 1992 film White Men Can't Jump. ------- Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra Get a free box of Dry Roasted Namibian Sea Salt Macadamias + 20% off Your Order With Code TETRA HVMN Ketone-IQ https://hvmn.me/TETRA Use code TETRA for 20% off at checkout Leisure Craft Saunas https://leisurecraft.com/

Tecro Grammetson. How you feeling, man? Pretty good. Just woke up. Excited to get into it. Same congratulations on the new project. Thank you. How's the feeling? I feel real good about it.

I feel like I can feel it resonating and it's fulfilling. You know, I have these texts I get from my fans to this number. So I really go through it, read them, and I could just tell they felt it in a way that I didn't get to experience some other projects. Like, I can just really feel the difference. How would you say making this one was different than the ones you've made in the past? I think I just really focused on no filler lines and just being as concise as I could,

just really focusing on every line contributing to the story I was trying to tell in the song. So clarity was just hugely important to me this time. And I like to think it was important in the past, but I can just tell I was letting more lines that weren't necessary slip through the cracks in the past. So I was just really focused on content this time. Of course, I cared about production and my tone, the flows and everything, but like at the top of the list was the content.

And I think that was the first. What do you think the sparked that feeling in you to want to do that, to make that slight adjustment? I'd call that a slight adjustment. It's not a big adjustment, but it's definitely an adjustment, and it changes the overall feeling of the project. I think I just know how limited the modern attention span is right now and how quickly people will change the channel. And so it just feels like while you have them, you got to get right to it right now. Like you just got to get right to what you want to say and not waver from it.

And I think storytelling became super crucial to me. This time around is like, I really wanted to just tell more stories even if they didn't involve me. And it's something that I grew up on and wished it was more of. And one of the other changes I made was last album, I was really, I damn near produced it because I was so focused on crafting beats from scratch and influencing what direction they went. This time I just wanted finished products.

Like I just asked people to send beats and I was just picking beats that were finished. The texture was decided. Like they weren't coming out of a clean keyboard. Like they were, the producers finished product and I was just wrapping on top of that finished product. And it just felt, I enjoyed it more, it just felt more instinctual, like just pick a beat.

I didn't feel this heavy burden of responsibility of trying to craft something from scratch up to have the texture I wanted it to have. That's a whole different experience. And interesting that you chose it because again, there's no right way to do this. And the last one, you spent a great deal of time working on the production. This one, you spent less time, maybe no time on production, but it doesn't make one better than the other.

Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, we get to choose each time we start a project, what's gonna be the organizing principle for that project, and then we make it based on how we're feeling at that time. Exactly. It feels good to do something new too, just because you're hoping it'll evoke changes out of every other aspect, like the fact that

I wasn't trying to produce those beats from the ground up. It's just a woke like a young MC energy out of me, I think, instead of trying to be this like ultra artist, I just was able to focus on just being a rapper. And do you know what made you feel like that's what I'm gonna do this time? Different than the last time? I think I had a chip on my shoulder this time for sure.

Definitely was feeling like I had a point to prove, probably a little insecure, just over the response of my last one, so I just wanted to show the side of me that I felt like a lot of new listeners, maybe just weren't even aware of. I don't know, I just wanted to show a range. And I think I just missed the feeling I had when I was 14 and I first started doing this where it was like,

yo, let's get right to it. Like it's just all I wanted when I was a kid was someone to come up to me and tell me I was dope. I just wanted someone to be like, yo, you're dope, man. You should dope. So I felt like that's what I wanted out of this project. Because that is still so sick. When you're in the street, there's some guy you can just tell us a hip-hop fan comes up to you

and it's just like, yo, he don't even ask for a picture. He just asks for a, he just is like, yo, I heard your album. You got it, man. That shit's dope. Like that still feels amazing. Still feels amazing. Yeah, there's nothing better than that. There's no award or chart position that means as much as someone telling you, I like what you made, just that or that that move me or that changed me or that affected me. It's the reason we do it. It's true, man. It's true. You had a line, The bragging is ever less convincing. The brags are my reps. Yeah, the brags are my reps are getting less and less convincing. Yeah. Tell me about that line. I think, um, after I finished the last half, I went right into a movie

and I shot the movie and then we hit the road and I started doing festivals overseas and so I just was swept up into the space so for about two months I just didn't record and then I Try when I step back into it, you know, I was trying to find my footing like just you know see where I was and I could just feel like The the braggadocio rap wasn't coming as natural. It's almost like I had it I needed to get some other type things off my chest So that's really where that came from is like even myself. I was listening to the The records where I was popping shit, and I was just like oh, don't even sound like your soul in it. So I had to get into a

The vulnerable stuff was just coming way more natural than the sound like your soul's in it, so I had to get into a... The vulnerable stuff was just coming way more natural than the Braggadocio. It's interesting because now with the success you're having, you actually have stuff to brag about, yet the stuff that feels more real is the vulnerable and maybe that speaks to in success, the stuff that feels more real is the vulnerable, and maybe that speaks to in success, we actually get more vulnerable. It is in fact true that as things get bigger,

it's not like you feel more protected, you feel more seen, more challenged, more expectations. more challenged, more expectations. Wow. Wow. You're right. You're exactly right. I got to thank you because I was reading the creative act the whole time I was recording this,

like taking it to the studio type time, I had it with me. And so did Angel Lopez, the guy who was working on this album with me the whole time. And my engineer, Nikki, we were all reading it at the same time. We were at different points in the book, but we just kept it honest, because I loved how concise you were in that book.

I feel like it probably subconsciously inspired how concise I was telling you. I was trying to be on this album. It's just like, it's almost these bite-sized moments that just felt so easy to digest and take with you. You know what I'm saying? I think you really did a great job, man. We call it the Bible.

Thank you, thank you. I definitely put intention into having no sentences that don't need to be there. Every sentence has a purpose. Yeah, and trim the fat, man sentence has a purpose. Yeah, and trim the fat man. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about freestyle. Well, I used to never do it when I was younger. I just was such a writer. And I got into hip-hop because I liked writing and reading. So it's like hip-hop was like literature to me. And then I when I moved to Atlanta, I always tell people,

I moved to Atlanta from Kentucky and I got down there and all the rappers were freestylein in the booth and I was collaborating but I was slowin' everyone down, writing. And I started to realize I'm gonna have to start freestylein' or at least punching, like just improv to come up with lines on the spot in the booth. And so for a couple years, I was doing that. And if I can be honest with you Rick, like, I really feel like my music gained a fun instinct, but it lost a lot of substance because of it. Because I wasn't taking that time to have like a focused pen.

And like you said, it's not right or wrong. I just feel like I didn't freestyle any time to have like a focused pen and like you said, it's not right or wrong. I just feel like I didn't freestyle any of this new album, but a couple of a couple tapes ago, I freestyleed a lot of the verses just so you could find pockets and flows. You wouldn't land on if you were thinking it out. But I've definitely been in a writing space lately. I haven't been freestyle in much, but it brings a good, it brings some good things out. What's your thoughts?

I wanna hear why you asked that. I just think it's an interesting thing to talk about. And again, there's not a right or wrong way. And I know that you have some experience doing it. And such an interesting idea, like the idea of, in the moment, coming up with stuff, it's like the writing with the subconscious. So I'm interested in the idea of writing with the subconscious. So I'm interested in the idea of writing with the subconscious.

I don't know if I would want that to be the final result, but I like the idea of it as a method and as a tool in building your material. I've seen it work wonders in terms of getting like a scaffolding for something. We're getting a few lines here and there for something that wouldn't come sitting down to right. I couldn't agree more. You're making me want to add that back in the mix really, because I know what you mean. It's just, it's almost like it's body.

It's just all what comes out. Because you don't have time to work out what you're doing. It's really spontaneous. It's like a jazz solo, you know? 100%. You can land on something profound on accident. For sure. Now, a writing wise, do you always start with a track? Or do you just write?

I got some advice from people I look up to to write without a beat, but I always like to write with a beat. But I oftentimes, what I do throughout the day is I'll have a conversation. If someone I just write the first line of a song, I have tons of first lines, so I get to the studio and you know, you're just surrounded by walls. Nobody's talking unless you sit down and start talking. And a beat's playing loudly. And I'll just go through those first lines and start saying them out loud.

And if they just hit the beat perfectly, I'm like, yeah, this is a good starting point. But yeah, throughout the day, you just get little fragments. And you just write them in your notes, you know? When you're writing fragments, do they typically for a particular song, or might they just be random good lines? Just random thoughts that I'm like, wow, I feel like, you know, no one said this.

No one started a song this way or, you know, somebody just said something to me in a conversation and it just sparked like, wow. It's funny because when I was younger, I tell people like, I would go to the dentist and at all it would be like, you should write a song about that and they were trying to be funny. It felt like they were being like, you should write a song about going to the dentist. And when I was a kid, I was like, it's so corny. You don't write rap songs about the dentist.

I was like, you wouldn't do that. And now I realize that I'm thirsty for the most unique possible thing to write about. Yeah. When the songs on this album come from, what was going on in your life that sparked them. A couple of them were just really reflective of how I feel about where I'm at and, you know, where I've been and what I desire and what what my doubts are.

And then a lot of them, a lot of them were just stories I felt like I wanted to tell, like I just really, like I love Sl love slick Rick for example, and I love I Love a lot of Kendrick's like storytelling songs. I love the way M&M told stories. I Just wanted to do more storytelling. I know I can tell stories even when I'm just around people in a room Sitting around like storytelling gets me excited and I in a room sitting around like storytelling gets me excited and I think that's just what I was pushing for this time is having some of the talk. There's just too much filler out here right now. There's too many songs that are about nothing and I've contributed to that. I have songs out there that are about just the vibe and it's cool. That's fun. I just think the balance has gone too far.

It's just right now I just think there needs to be more concepts and so this time I just think there's the balance has gone too far. It's just right now, I just think there needs to be more concepts. And so this time, I just wanted to add concepts to the game, like concepts to discuss and see where you find yourself in it. Like, you hear a song from my perspective, but you can find yourself in that perspective to see, well, where do I fall on what he's talking about? How does this, how does this look in the mirror? So I just wanted more concepts,

more conceptual stuff instead of just sonic pleasure. Like I enjoy sonic pleasure. I deal you can get both, but I just felt like it's like on the last one, I just had a lot of sonic pleasure like this time. It's like let's have a concept. That's what I wanted. There's a song, this album, that's each verse is written from a different character's point of view. When it's from a younger brother, than an older brother, and then the father. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about how that song came about. What was inspiration? I was at my parents house and they were having a game night with their friends. and they were having a game night with their friends.

And so I went over there just to join and one of the, whatever game we're playing, you would talk about yourself. And one of my parents' friends started talking about himself and it's a mainly lighthearted game. It wasn't supposed to be heavy, but he started talking about his relationship with a sibling and he just kind of lost it.

He just broke down in front of all of us and it was super powerful. And it was slightly uncomfortable, but for me more than anything, I just immediately was like tomorrow at the studio. That's what I want to talk about, because it resonated with me personally. But it also let me know how much of the world probably feels that way towards a sibling, towards a father. So that's literally what sparked it. Is it happened right in front of me? Someone else was talking about it and I just was like, yeah, yeah, that needs to song. And so I pulled from his perspective and I pulled from mine.

I just pulled from that dynamic because I think siblings, family obviously but siblings is touchy. If you don't have it right with your siblings or your parents, it's hard to talk about. Yeah, tell me about how she grew up in it. Our parents, deeply in love, still are. So I got super blessed. And my parents are just super thoughtful people.

We grew up in the Highlands neighborhood of Louisville, which is a little bit more of all. I guess if there was a district of Louisville that was kind of arts here, that would be it. There was a record store I used to walk up to, called the Erex D'Ce before it closed when I got out of middle school. But I bought beautiful dark twisted fantasy, a thing later on CD

from there. I would run out of middle school and go up there. I bought loop afiasco CDs. I bought Pink Friday by Nicki Minaj up there. I was in a very pedestrian friendly area. I was just always walking up to school with my friends but it was me, my brother, and my parents. And what was the music that was playing in the house brought up? My dad was playing a lot of Willie Nelson and Johnny

Paycheck, a lot of country, great storytelling, and my mom loved rap. She had a huge rap collection and she's so excited I'm doing this interview because she talks about when she was in college like just reading the village voice and watching your ascension and just she went to public enemy concerts. So much of the early shit you did she was taking in herself so my mom is super. She loves hip-hop. And so she put me on to hip-hop. I literally remember she bought late registration and I was probably seven or eight and she played it in the car and she was like, you're going to hear some words in

this you can't say but enjoy. She's playing martial mad as LP when I was young. So my mom was the hip-hop of my dad country. Do you think the fact that your dad listened to country had an impact on your writing as well? I think maybe the way I talk to women in my music or just the storytelling aspect like the yearning of country. Like it's just so like it's just constant just yearning. And so, I like that. I like country's relationship to women a lot. I don't know. But definitely, it definitely affected it.

My dad like smooth, easy listening. And I think I do too. Like I don't like erratic music. I don't like making rage hip hop. I think there's a time and place where I made it and you might enjoy it, but I like smooth shit, man. I like everything to be glossy and just easy on the ears, and I think I inherited that from him.

He listens, he likes Al Green. He likes everything smooth. He doesn't care about a kick drum, and I often tell producers, I don't need any kicks. Just smooth. It's an interesting thing that happens in hip hop music when the drums are less important in it, where the words take on a different importance without the distraction of the beat. The beat makes you listen with your body, and as soon as you take the beat away, we focus on

the poetry in a different way. Yeah, I tell me about they don't love it. It's such a simple hook, but it's so catchy and just the changing and the phrasing. You know what I'm saying? Like the way you say the same line with two different two different phrases. Ah, so catchy. Stan, let's dope you notice that. Thank you. Yeah, that was one of the late ones. I don't know how interject this album would have been without that one. That was like one of the ones that was like you said, it just beat driven. Because there's a couple records on the album that don't have drums for like they have hats,, but Denver doesn't have a kicker at eight away, but they don't love it as punchy. It's funny because they don't love it as kind of, there's a cockiness to it, and that was right

around the end of the album. So in a totally different space, mentally than when I was writing that line, where the brags and my raps were getting less convincing, like I think the brags were getting more convincing to me again by then. So that's why I think that one I was like really back in a mode of like shit talking on records. So yeah, that one was made more recently. I made that right at the end. And I really wanted just a simple hook. You know, I didn't need the hook to be this elaborate thing.

I just like, it's like, what is the message of the song? Sometimes the best hook is just the 17th bar. You know, like, what would come right after the 16th bar? So they're kind of threaded in a way. I can't, I really struggled to just write a hook. Like, like, give us a chorus. Like, that's one of the things I would wish I would like to sharpen a little bit because I can't just write a chorus. Like the chorus has to be connected to what I said in the verse. Yeah, many people write the chorus first and then write around it, but it sounds like you start from the first line and write it like in order.

I love to write the first verse. I like my songs to start with a first verse. I really do like writing verses. We'll talk more about the phrase, they don't love it, cause in a way it's cocky, but it's also, there's like a prideful emotion in it. Oh yeah. I really care about this,

which I really care about this is not so braggie. You know, really braggie is, I don't care about it and look how good I am. That's the real version of braggie, but this is, they don't love it as much as I do. I tend, you know, like I really love it. That's, I don't know where that is on the bragg scale, you know? It's a, it's a, it's an emotionally evolved position. Thank you. Yeah. The hook ain't a brag to me.

I agree. The hook is just, it's almost like an encouragement to, I feel, I felt like I was trying to stoke passion in everyone. Like, you know, don't forget you can love this. Don't forget this isn't just a hustle. Because I love it. And I know there's people that love it. And so it's almost like it's saying, no, you don't love it, prove it.

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Tell me about the difference in audience response in the US versus in the rest of the world. Since you said you were doing a, you've played all over the world now, yes. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it feels like it's crazy you're on the outside because there's certain places that feel like maybe this is the one time they'll see you. Yeah.

And so there's an energy around that. Like when I was in South America, it just felt like the gratitude that I was there. I just felt like almost a gratitude from the crowd. It really felt special. But the US is crazy too. I don't know, you know, it just depends on where you're at.

I mean, Australia, incredible. But you know what it is? I did a show in Bahrain. I isolated show that Kevin Hart booked me for. I did a show in Bahrain in February while I was working on this album. And it was almost a reminder that, yeah, get all this introspection out,

get all these thoughts out, get all this poetry out. But don't forget, like, you got to move these people. Like, don't forget what was really, I got off stage and I was like, what was so fulfilling about that show, Jack, like asking myself, and it's like, I could see a six-year-old just like, dancing to the grooves I had come up with.

Not necessarily how thoughtful what I said was, just more so like, wow, this, like you said, listening with their body. So it's just so funny how to see saw swings back and forth when you leave the country because you're just like wow like Like I find that they know the hooks better overseas and sometimes the verses are just like waiting for you to get back to that hook like I don't know this Performing is you gotta be careful because I almost feel like my last album may have been over influenced by performing but

Performing reminds you that you want hits, but it's crazy because I can get into the studio and I can get into my isolated bubble mode where I'm like, who cares about hits? Just, just write from your heart. And I think that's so true. But once you're getting from that crowd and you perform a few of the hits you do got, you're like, I need about 30 more of those. You're just like, wow, that is so exhilarating. I don't think they necessarily come by aiming for them, no, that's the thing. It's like you can write your most personal track

that you think, I don't know if anyone's gonna like this, but this one really moves me, and that ends up being the best one. Like, you can't second guess. You know, you just have to make your favorite, your favorite, as long as you're consistently making your favorite, you're gonna be all right you're consistently making your favorite, you're gonna be all right.

I love that. I think you're right. Tell me about reading and writing and growing up. You said growing up, you like to read and write a lot. What were the kind of things you read? I mean, I would just read any book in front of me. Like I read all the Harry Potter's. I would read.

My parents didn't let me play video games. So I was just from age three to 11 or 12, all I did was read and just became my former entertainment. I was that kid walking around with books with me. Like I just constantly was reading. Then I get into school and I'm actually enjoying English class a little bit because I get to express myself. So by the time I'm on a teen and hip hop is everything,

you know, I get to middle school in 2009, hip hop is just everything to us. So I just wanted to take that reading and writing and fuse it with the coolest expression there was that my peers were listening to. Yeah, I was hugely, I was a reader. Was there any hip hop that you felt like was yours that was not your mom's like,

was there anything that you loved that your mom didn't didn't get it all? It might be a testament to how wavy she is, but no. We didn't have that divide. My dad, for sure, my dad definitely, but my mom, she almost understood. She still understands everything. She still helps me with career decisions.

I send her a song, somebody wants a feature, I'll send her the song, she helps me decide. She has a, she gets it, man. So cool, so lucky. Yeah. Tell me about your audience. Who are the people who come to the shows, who are the people that send you messages?

Young, but also a lot of grown people too. But definitely, I'd like to think I have a younger audience. At least, you know, when I look out immediately in front of me, the first six rows, it's a lot of young women, a lot of young women at different races, but I always do see a pocket of like, I always see in my shows,

behind like the 12 rows of women, there's like a pocket of like 400 white boys that are like six foot five five that are packed there in basketball jersey. So definitely got that to tell me about the collective that you're part of. Private Garden. Yeah. It's a collective we started right before I graduated high school. It's made up of MCs and producers and my best friend, Urban, he's a photographer, Ace Pro, Nemo, Tufuwan, Sloob, Kiso. I think for me, I was just desperate to find someone that I thought was really talented

in my city. And I also grew up with a lot of friends that maybe supported what I did but weren't involved in music. So suddenly I found a group of friends when I turned like 17 that really helped mold my taste and were from a different neighborhood than me and just had like a certain flavor that I may have been lacking at the time and just were a little older than me. So a lot of the guys in my collective like really helped me push to get better and better and lend it a lot of perspective like sonically to what I was doing.

I think just matured my taste a lot. So I don't know, you probably know how important a guild is, like just having a group when you're young that just you can bounce off of and push each other that you think is dope, that you try to outdo each other. And it's just cool. Yeah, it really helps. It really helps to have friends to bounce ideas off of. Even if you do different things, just to, it's like a professional audience in some way, you know. And so I'm going to be inspired by it's really helpful.

Thousand percent. Tell me about the growing up where you grew up and how what impact do you think that that had on you or has on you. Well, the Highlands is definitely a mostly white area, but it was one of those areas that kids after school, because I went to public school. So we had a lot of kids from different neighborhoods, from rougher neighborhoods, come to the school. And after school, people would want to stay in the Highlands where the school was because the area just had this energy of acceptance, and it was active. You could go play basketball, you could go to shops.

It just had that. The Highlands is just like this center of the city that brings people from all different parts of the city to it on weekends after school, whatever. So I think I don't know if I would have been a rapper had I not grown up in the Highlands because I was able to go to school with a lot of black kids and a lot of white kids too, but there was a variety to the people in my school. There was a diversity. And I think it just lended me a lot of perspective.

And also spending so much time walking around in the Highlands, gave me a neighborhood energy. I knew what it was like to be outside, to have conversations, to get in trouble, to be confronted by strangers. I was just taking in life at a really early age instead of being inside or being in a bubble. Like I wasn't in a deep suburb, like isolated from the world.

Like I was taking the world in and having run-ins and getting in trouble and doing silly shit. So huge. I think the area I grew up in, I don't know if I would be a compelling rapper or maybe I just would be a different rapper. I don't know. Describe what it's like, like their tall buildings or tell me exactly what it's like. Paying to picture for me of where you grew up so I understand it. I'm about to paint it, but you should watch the They Don't Love at Music video because I shot it

and visually captured exactly what you're asking for. I shot it all through the neighborhood I grew up in. But there's tall buildings in Louisville, but in the Highlands neighborhood where I grew up, it's like the center point of it is this road called Barstown Road that is kind of a narrow, major road. So it's pedestrian friendly, like you can yell across the street to the next person. And there's just local shops, it's full of local businesses.

Like that record store I told you about was one of the landmark spots. So there's always been a arts culture and energy. And now there's one that we're really trying to preserve. Because you know a national chain just hits a corner every once in a while and it's like, yeah, don't take away this energy. But I don't know, it's kind just hits a corner every once in a while and it's like, yeah, don't take away this energy. But I don't know, it's kind of like an artsy district

and the architecture is old like... Old like the 1950s and 1920s. I feel like it's the 20s. I don't know what exact period you would say it is, but even the houses have a sort of aged energy. It's a historic neighborhood for sure. It's still trying to picture it. How close is it that the houses together?

The houses are right up against each other. Yeah, the houses are right up against each other. And residential and commercial are like, are integrated. Like, it's not, they're not removed from one another. Damn, I love the challenge you're giving me to really vividly paint this for you Did you walk to school every day? I'd usually catch the bus So I don't have to get up as early but I'd walk home almost every day. I'd walk home from school almost every day

And how many minutes would that take? 15 or 20 Tell me about how you ended up getting into film just in general Yeah, I mean how did you did you start your career doing music? You find some success in music. Next thing you know, you're in a film. I just got a call one day to do white man can't jump. And I was always interested in acting and people

be like, yo, you should be an actor. I took theater in high school. But I never took it super serious, but it was always an option to me. It just was second to rap. And then the opportunity came and I jumped at it. And I think I'm gonna continue to jump at it because,

it's definitely a liberating craft. I like it a lot. Tell me about doing theater in school. We learned how to do improv and we put on little plays in front of the class at least. And our teacher was pretty lagged, Mr. Perry. There's a lot of days where we wouldn't do nothing. We would just hang out with each other,

which was phenomenal. So that's why I say it wasn't super disciplined, but there were moments where I would take something away and It just lets me know I had an interest in acting early because I chose to do theater. I was like, you know, I'd like to do theater So there's something in my DNA for it. There's something about getting up in front of people that some people find it really Exciting to do and other people like it's the last thing they want to do is get up in front of other people. Yeah, I definitely always been an attention horror. I don't know what's wrong with me. Speaking of which, how did you first get attention as an MC? Like what was the first thing you did that got noticed?

In school. By the time I was in sixth grade, we had Facebook. So I was on the internet with my classmates, and I was uploading songs. So my class was seeing them, but really I would burn CDs and take them to school and sell them for two dollars, and I'd record them on a laptop. So in middle school, people knew what my dream was.

Like I was putting myself fully out there, and I was was telling people I'm gonna be a rapper. Here's my music. And there was a lot of hate just like their continues to be. But there was a lot of love just like their continues to be. There's a lot of people that just saw it. They got it and they were like, yeah, you're him. You're gonna be it. So I think I just received enough positive feedback early that I was like, yes, what am I do? It's amazing. Yeah. Did you ever try to spread it beyond local in those days? Like, what were the things that you would do when you would record to spread the word? I mean, you would upload it to YouTube and you would just hope it would catch, but it wasn't

until I was in high school that it started to leave Louisville. When I got to high school, I was shooting videos with local videographers and it wasn't going viral, but you would see someone from Massachusetts comment like, yo, I see what you're doing down there, you know? And then when I graduated, I dropped a video when I was like 19 called Dark Knight and it changed everything. Like, it got me signed. I uploaded it to Twitter and it went viral.

It was super viral. That was my first experience of like, everyone, all eyes on me, like culturally I'm being digested, like they know who I am. How many things did you put out leading up to that? Because for most people, that would have been the first, the first thing, maybe the only thing they saw, just to give perspective for people who were aspiring to do this. How many things may you have put out before that? I mean, tons, tons, like, and just isolated songs.

I mean, the remix was such a big thing 10, 12 years ago. I was just doing remixes when I was a young, like, when I was a kid, I just, I did a black and yellow remix. I did a moment for life remix. I did six foot seven foot. Like, I was just doing remixes. So, I had tons of wraps on the internet already. People have been able to watch me grow into myself, not only just becoming a man, but growing into like the comfort of my swagger, like of my own self belief, like you could visually see my confidence change. So people have been able to watch my evolution.

So I put a lot out there before anything caught. And it's crazy because the song I just said went viral, it changed my career. But that was three, four years ahead of my first hit song that actually did something on Billboard that changed my career. Like there's so many beginnings, right? Like dark night that record in my viral,

like that gave me an internet presence, but there's still so many people and who know I might drop a song in a year that I'm like in 20 years I'm like, yeah, that's one of those beginnings too. Like, it's just there's always new chunks of discovery and so Yeah, there's different points of discovery for people. But I have a lot of music out. I have a lot of attempts out in the world in front of the world like. People can get a very clear idea of whoones, discover more physical and mental potential, discover ketosis without fasting, ketones improve metabolic health and appetite control. It's used by top performers for gentle, long-lasting energy.

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There's a song on the new project called Gang Gang Gang. I was hoping you'd bring this up. Would you be up for an acupelller rendition of gang gang gang? I would look at you say those words. Yeah. Yeah, I'm happy to. Write for my dogs, die for my dogs, lie for my dogs, write for my dogs, lie for my dogs, die for my dogs, die for my dogs. Home for the holidays. My friend pulled me to the side like, did you hear about Marcus? Our Marcus? Yeah, our Marcus. A bunch of girls say rape them in the back of some target.

They say, drove them back there in the car and then he parked it and the rest is even darker. Wait, which Marcus? Because it can't be, yes, our Marcus. The same Marcus we collected Pokemon cars with the one with perfect grades that has family in New Orleans. Yes, that Marcus. He's got seven rape charges. You want the second verse? Absolutely. Home for the holidays. My friend pulled me to the side like, did you hear about Kevin Kevin? who? Art Kevin, what happened?

He got arrested. They found a bunch of messages. He sent the little kids and apparently he met up with this 10-year-old and not a kid saying he got molested. molested by who? by Kevin. Nah, it's gotta be a different Kevin. Look, I'm telling you it's Kevin that we've known since we were seven.

The one whose dad's a reverend. The same Kevin we spend every weekend with and call brethren. Rhyme for my dogs, lie for my dogs, lie for my dogs. Truthfully, it's family till it can't be, gang till it ain't, twins but it depends. Brothers and cells something is uncovered, dogs until the lifting of the fog. I always got you turns into well, I never thought you. Years of camaraderie suddenly disappear, almost like you never were here. Unconditioned love becomes very condition when push comes to shove and all that talk of taking bullets suddenly feels foolish.

Pictures with them turn to ad campaigns, you gotta pull it. Feet held to the fire, we hold accountable, the ones we hold dear out of morals but maybe fear the choice becomes clear and years of camaraderie suddenly disappear almost like you never were here almost like you never were here tell me about what does spark that and how that one came to be well i got to give credit to Rashad Thomas who made the beat and as soon as I heard the beat I thought it was totally one of one which is what I was looking for a lot of times on this album and what I continue to look for is just something that is totally uncategorizable or comparable.

So I heard the beat and I heard the samples gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, and it sounded old but it reminded me of how in modern times like everybody's like gang gang gang Like it's just it's such a modern phrase to just say gang gang gang to basically describe How down you are with your with your boys your gang and so I started to think about You know the flip side of That loyalty and how deep loyalty can go. And it's influenced by a few personal experiences, but I guess I just wanted to paint that picture.

I heard the beat, the beat really helped me write that song, just the can-gain-gain repeatedly. I was just like, and it was so eerie. I just wanted to surprise people. I just wanted there to be a turn in the story. And the phrasing of Kevin, which Kevin? Our Kevin? It's so good. Thank you.

It's so good. It's really good. I was hoping you bring that up. Thank you so much. I couldn't wait for you to hear that song. It's beautiful. Thank you. And it feels like I haven't heard another song like it. Like it's, uh, that's what I want, man. Yeah, it strikes a very particular life experience that feels like it's relatable, but unique. I've not heard that song before. Thank you.

How has, uh, success been different than you expected? I didn't expect for it to feel so fragile and feel so just vulnerable. There's decisions I just won't make anymore. Like, I'll give you an example. I think one of the driving forces early on when I was starting to rap and trying to get on is like, I just wanted the girl in my class to like me.

You just make music for women a lot because I wanted that attention, that validation. And then you reach a place where you may get a piece of that, but it's better that you don't give too much access. So it's funny that you're like, you're in for these things and then you're in a position. And it's like, maybe you may partake a little less than you thought you might have. I don't know, I don't drink anymore. There's so many things that I've just cut out of my life because it feels like what I have is, one, it's feeding more than just myself, but it's just so precious that I don't want to play any games with it.

It's like I'm out of my juvenile phase completely. It feels like, and this is more recent. This is kind of like a recent answer. I don't want to sleep with random women. I don't want to do hard drugs. I don't want to be shit faced in public. Like there's just so many things that I'm just like, this gives you access to basically so much of what you want.

And then you realize, it's better off if I don't take it, I guess is what I'm saying. And a recent answer is really good considering we're doing this right now. So it's perfect. It's perfect to give a recent answer for today. Well, I guess I just mean that I may not have had the same answer six months ago, you know? Yeah. Also, the idea of you're doing this because you want women to like you.

And now, if women like you because this is what you do, does that really feel good? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Confusing, right? I remember hearing rappers talk about how they felt like, man, women like me because of what I do. And when I was like 12 or 13, I thought it was cool.

I couldn't understand why they were complaining. I was like, that's awesome that they like you, cause you're a rapper like, that's awesome. It's so funny, but. Any other surprises about success or that's different than you envisioned it being? This may not be the perfect response, but I just, what your question as far as out of me

is just like, how terrible social media is, and how I just would encourage all of my contemporaries or anyone, anyone on the come up that when they reach, like, because it's become so normal to just be on there constantly, like, it's not even a weird thing, like like people don't look at it like cigarettes yet like it's not It's not treated like it's taboo, but you really got to take time off of there Even if it's just for the simple reason like you shouldn't be digesting everyone's thoughts all day And I think it's even more heavy when the thoughts are about you I just think I couldn't anticipate it how crucial staying off the internet really is and I did this whole album

off the internet and I saw what it did for me, I saw what solitude and kind of isolation from what a million other people think. Not even about me, just about society. So many social cues on an internet. Suddenly people's vocabulary just turns into the massive vocabulary and you're not writing anything original You're not ingesting anything original like if I had been on the internet I don't know if I would have written gang gang gang for example like that song came to me at a time where it's like I'm in my hometown recording and I'm not taking in what everyone thinks about what's cool or what's right or what's wrong I'm just writing something that inspires me and that's how I wrote when I was 12, 13 before I'm exposed to the whole world. So I just think, God, I stay off social media, use it as a tool for sure. But to just be idly scrolling, it's just, whoo, that's how

I feel. What do you listen to mostly? How a bad habit for a while of not listening to music, cleaning the house silently, drive silently. I think music could stop being like a thing of enjoyment for me and more like my job and I use it as a tool. But while I was recording, I made a point to listen to as much as I could and just taking a lot of stuff. So I can at least say while I was writing this album, I was listening to a lot of Slum Village and most of, a lot of the Beatles. And I got that book, 500 greatest albums, Rolling Stone. And I just will open it to a random page

and just listen to a new album. Just I was just trying to ingest new music, like stuff I'd never heard. A lot of things people call classics that I just didn't grow up with. I'm like, well let me go see what the hype's about. And what were things that you took away from that experience? Being conceptual. I'll tell you one thing I was living by, Rick, when I was writing this. All my heroes, if you were to distill their legacy down to like one sentence, what I've realized is like what they really added to the game is what they talked about.

Like they talked about something for the first time. Like, yay came through and talked about something for the first time. Like, well, Eminem wrote Stan, no one had written a song about a fan like that. Like when Drake wrote Marvin's Room, no one had written that type of song as a rapper. Like these artists, like they talked about something new and of course they added a new sonic, a ton of voice to attitude, all that's crucial but this time around, like I wanted to talk about things

people hadn't talked about. So I think that's what I gained from a lot of the music I was listening to is like, whoa, like I'd never heard a song like this. So yeah, and I think that's really my agenda moving forward is original topics. I think Andre 3000 is great at touching on original topics. Leisure craft. Builders of handmade custom sonas, hot tubs, and cold plunges. Constructed from the finest quality cedar, barrel sonas are the most efficient sauna shape.

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Diswriting always start with a track for you? In long form, yes, but it often starts with one line without a track. And then I'll apply it to a track. Have you ever written a song to a track and then changed the track? Yes, and it can be very effective. It's crazy. Especially if you go up the tempo, then your flow can sound insane. It probably works both ways,

but the most fun I've had doing it was when I picked a beat that was a couple of BPMs higher and I spit the same flow and it just fell into a crazy pocket that was like, whoa, it sounds so, it just sounds so sharp. I don't know. Yeah, it's also interesting hearing you say that. What I think of is there's so many accents in beats

that if you switch to a different beat, the accents are different in the music, but you've written it to a different set of accents. So when you put them together, sometimes it doesn't work, but sometimes it creates this thing that you never would have written that kind of phrasing to that kind of accented beat and it feels really new. Maybe just because a couple extra perks or lack of perks, like just, just where the music

is leaning. Yeah, you syllables bounce off at different. It's so crazy. How do you describe what you do versus what other MCs do? That's a tough one, right? Another way of thinking about it would be if you think about what it is that you like about your contemporaries. I think about what you do that's different than those things that you like about what they do.

That might help. That is narrow it down a little bit. That is helpful. I don't know. I heard Kanye talking, maybe he was in the genius dog at some point. He was talking about how you felt frustrated that he had to write at this certain level because he couldn't just jump to a gum bar. And I don't know. It resonated with me because being authentic is super important to me. And I know I didn't come from a street background. So I think I'm always reaching for something that is super authentic and authentic to me, whereas hip-hop has such a street culture behind it that if you do come from that or if

you are telling that story, you can always use that as a pillar. You can always talk about a street background and telling an incredible story. And so obviously there's other artists in the game that ain't straight, but I just feel like I have to reach, I have to reach for stories that are more on my own and maybe more not in line with the traditions of hip hop, at least to keep it fresh. I would look at that as a great opportunity. I think that's a wide open field to talk about

your real life experiences and the things that you go through that I'm sure so many people, I mean, obviously so many people, I mean obviously so many people who listen to rap don't grow up dealing drugs in the street. For example, not everyone does. So it's a much wider thing. I think the reason that hip hop has continued to unfold and grow globally is because it's not really about one thing. You know, if you make it about one thing, you can do that, but it's much wider than that. And I'll relate a story from my life about

punk rock. I grew up on punk rock was the music that I grew up on like when I was in junior high school and high school. And the punk rock that started from England was always related to politics. And I talked about class struggle and things that we didn't really experience in the US, like things that most kids that I knew didn't relate to the lyrics of the English punk rock. And then there was this whole wave of American punk rock called Hardcore that was, it seemed like it was just following inspired by the English punk rock talking about those same things. And it didn't really make sense, like it didn't feel authentic to me because I knew I lived a suburban life and these other kids who were making this

music live to suburban life. And they were singing about these political issues that didn't relate at all to our lives that didn't make sense. And then a band from DC came along called Minor Threat. And Minor Threat was the first band that they didn't really talk about politics. They talked about social issues. They talked about something really you might experience in the classroom in school. It was rarely about the classroom, but it was about, you know, a friend lying to you or something like that, which was, that was much more real in life than some political

philosophical idea that didn't really relate to our lives. So, minor threat was sort of the best of the punk rock bands because what they sung about was relatable and real and true to them. And because it was true to them, even if it wasn't true to us, you could feel the humanity in it. So, in some ways, the fact that you grew up when you grew up, you're probably closer to much more of the audience than the people who were talking just about the street. So there's potential for you to tap into very personal stories and avoid anything inauthentic. And it seems like that's only good for you. I would agree. Tell me about your relationship with your brother. Great relationship.

He's become a producer over the last few years. You got a placement on my last one. He's really talented. He's gonna be excellent. So he's joined this like music world with me. He grew up an athlete, playing soccer, but now, he's fully entrenched in music, his name's Clay. And he's excellent. And you know, before it, before Blame on me came out, I shouted to him and my dad just so they

didn't have to hear it with the world, just to see what they thought. And they both took it really well. I prefaced it the same way I talked to you about it of how it was inspired and such, but I'd laid it out there. I mean, they still heard the song for what the song was in them. I think it was heavy, but it was good. But me and Clay have a really good relationship at this point in my life. Like, we're close. We play soccer together every week. Like, we're in the studio together. He goes on tour with me, we're definitely in a great space. Do you think if the story of Blamon me was even more autobiographical

and not inspired by anyone else's story, it would have been as okay sharing it with them? Do you think the response would have been the same? I actually do. I think it would have been the same. It may have been difficult to take, but like the preface I gave them almost was just soft in the energy.

As true as it was, a lot of that song is from my life. And I don't have to tell them that. They lived with me so they know which parts are, they know what's up. So there was still enough of, there was still so much of that song that is me. The majority of it that they, you know, I think I got an idea how they would take it if it was 100%. You know, it's just, because really what I said inspired it, pushed me to do it. It didn't necessarily write the vivid details.

It just pushed me to create the song. The vivid details are my own. Did you know from the time of writing the first verse that each verse was gonna be from a different perspective? No, I didn't. I wrote the first verse and sat with it. I just wanted to write from a perspective besides my own. I've been trying to get out of like,

this is how Jack Harlow feels, this is what he thinks, this is what he sees. I've been trying to get out of being in Jack Harlow land. So I think I just wanted to tell that story without telling it from mine, without being like, oh, I did these bad things. I wanted to tell it from the story to someone that was a victim in a sense. And then I was like, maybe the second verse can be from mine. And then I didn't even have the third verse in mind yet. And I write the second verse and I'm like, huh, well, you know, this could keep going.

This can be bigger than just siblings. So then I wrote the third one to really cool idea. And I've not heard that song either. I've heard there's a great cat Steven song called, I want to say it's called Father and Son. Not sure if it's called that, but it's, it's a conversation between the father and son, like an argument between the father and son. It's really beautiful. That's powerful. You know, you know what inspired that there a verse. I just realized have you ever read How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie? There's the opening called father forgets at the beginning of the book at the very beginning of the book It almost has nothing to do with the rest of the book. At the very beginning of the book,

it almost has nothing to do with the rest of the book. It's like he included it as just, it's called Father Forgits and it's just this short passage about a father writing a letter to his son about how hard he's been on them and how much he regrets it. And I read that, I think I was 18, I read that. I was just reading in the park.

And art don't make me feel, I don't cry from art very much, I burst into tears reading a that. I was just reading in the park and art don't make me feel I don't cry from art very much Burst in the tears reading a book. It was insane. It was the most insane feeling like Couldn't control it didn't decide to cry. Obviously just it just fell out of my face and So that I have rarely been touched by writing the way I was touched by father forgets and That really helped inspire that third verse. But you know why I was listening to a lot too when I was writing this album since you asked earlier, Carly Simon and the concept she would write and like fair weather father that song

is just so crazy of just like she just would come up with the catchiest ways to tell us super specific stories. Let alone you're so vain. It's just like all these joints that are just like right to a concept. And I was just like wow. And it's crazy how the specific stuff is so big. You try to write a big song about the world and how big the world is. Don't connect. You got to get right to it. And that's what I was trying to do, so thank you, seriously. There's a movie you might wanna check out. I don't know if you ever seen called Yojimbo, which is a Japanese movie by Kurosawa.

That's, it's three versions of the same story told from three different points of view. So you get to see one character's version of what happened and you get to see the next character's version of what happened and finally you get to see the third character's version of what happened and they're all completely different. Yo, Jim Bo. Yo, Jim Bo. Yeah. What got you on to Carly Simon? Was that from the 500 grade albums book? I think I was just on a 70s kick. I've been listening to her for a couple of years

and I just was exploring a bunch of music from the 70s in the Landed on her. My mom played me, you're so vain years ago. So I was sort of familiar, but just to get into more her discography, like the songwriting, I just love specific stuff. I love stuff that isn't general or just a vibe. Like, at least right now in my life, I don't want to hear a vibe or something

that's kind of ambiguous. I love stuff that is just like, right to it. That's what I'm enjoying right now. Do you still get to listen to music with your mom? Sometimes. I played her the album early, said that was fun. How'd she like it? She likes it a lot. I like how the songs are so short, it feels very direct and specific and does what it needs to do, you know. Thank you, thank you. Cool, man. What's the pleasure of speaking to you? Anything else that you think we would be helpful for us to talk about?

No, you did a great job man. I really appreciate this. I can't lie to some of the people that helped put out my project were a little nervous about the lack of press. I wanted to do this, but I just really wanted to let the music speak. And they said, well, if you could do one interview, what would you do when I was like, break a ribbon? But I was like, it's a long shot. If y'all can make that happen, I'm down, but I tried to create something that felt like,

y'all can't get me that and then sure enough. So I just wanna say thank you. I really appreciate this. And you helped me make this album that we're talking about right now, you know, from a distance, but you helped me so, thank you. Thank you, sir, and I look forward to a meeting you sooner than later in person and we'll hug.

I can't wait. Good man. 2 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1 %, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, Thank you.